on this new hour of "ayman" trump claims he loves to win, but many of his picks have losing records and that may all be by design. plus i'll speak with a former health insurance executive turned whistleblower about the reaction that followed the murder of the ceo of unitedhealthcare. and a talk with the filmmakers behind a new benjamin netanyahu documentary the israeli prime minister does not want the public to see. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's do it. ♪♪ one way donald trump is consistent, well, to for years he's been branding his enemies or critics losers and for those who kiss the ring as winners and yet for somebody all about winning, there is a striking pattern emerging for many in his cabinet and administration.

we're seeing a whole lot of political losers, people defeated in elections in just about every way imaginable. let's start with republican senator marco rubio of florida or little marco as trump repeatedly called him as he wiped the floor with him during the republican presidential primary in 2016. rubio may now enjoy a second act as trump's new secretary of state and then there's trump's pick for director of national intelligence, tulsi gabbard, the one-time surrogate for bernie sanders who lost the democratic nomination for president in 2020. don't forget rfk jr. who ran against trump this year as an independent candidate but dropped out prior to the election and is now trump's choice for secretary of health and human services. it's not just people who tried to compete with trump for the white house and failed. trump has also welcomed figures into the fold who lost key races for the republican party. mehmet oz tapped to be head of

medicare and medicaid lost two years ago the senate race to john fetterman. linda mcmahon lost to senate bids to democrats in connecticut in 2010 and 2012. lori chavez-deremer who just lost reelection campaign for a congressional seat in oregon to democrat janelle bynum. she had already lost two times prior to that loss to bynum. it might seem a little odd for trump to be choosing so many political losers until we remember who we're actually dealing with here. trump has repeatedly said the biggest mistake of his first term was choosing the wrong people, in other words, people who would at times push back against his policies. aides would try to put up guardrails, outmaneuver trump by slow walking or ignoring directives they saw as ill- advised. other times they would mount 11th hour campaigns to avert them, but when trump wanted to send active duty u.s. troops to respond to mass protests after the murder of george floyd, an unarmed black man by a

minneapolis police officer, trump aides resisted concerned about the illegal use of the u.s. military against our own citizens. now some of the current aides and allies tell the associated press trump is choosing people he believes are fully committed to his america first agenda and those who he thinks can best execute it. with these picks for his new administration, trump is giving new political life to people who otherwise wouldn't be able to get into a presidential administration or cabinet either due to the impact of their political losses or in many cases a complete lack of experience. he's seeking out people who need him and as a result, will be entirely malleable and dependent to his will. this allows him to take even more control in his time in the white house. joining us now are donna edwards and david jolley, both msnbc political analysts. donna, your thoughts on this overarching theme of people who

lost elections whether to trump or others filling up the ranks of his administration. what do you make of the profile of these people? >> well, what i see are a group of people who are first and foremost absolutely loyal to donald trump. some of them like marco rubio may have started out as critics and competitors but has quickly fallen into line. the other common thread that i see among these are almost to a one, people who deny the 2020 election was won by joe biden and who continue to continue that lie and perception over the last four years. for donald trump those were tests of loyalty and it's what he's commanding in his upcoming administration and they are not going to be people who have too

many other options. so serving at the pleasure of the president is going to be what they will do and i think that they're just going to fall in line with whatever it is he chooses. >> david, let's zero in on marco rubio for a second, the man who trump has humiliated so publicly now designated as trump's secretary of state. what strikes you about that choice and the strategy here? it's hard to imagine, but that might actually be the most sane pick of trump's administration so far? >> first and foremost, ayman, marco rubio hates the united states senate. he said that publicly in 2016. he's never enjoyed it and certainly now under the rise of trumpism he saw him have to publicly humiliate himself and we saw donald trump publicly humiliate marco rubio. so the opportunity to serve as secretary of state, something that marco rubio is absolutely qualified to do and he should sail through nomination. for marco rubio, it's a bit of a capstone to his still young career, someone who still has a

few decades if he chooses to stay in service. i think it also reflects kind of what donna was referring to and your lead-in, which is all these people donald trump has selected have either been tamed publicly by donald trump. marco rubio is a good example. rfk jr. is a good example. the idea of floating ron desantis as secretary of defense should hegseth be withdrawn, all of those people he publicly tamed. he includes that and the second group of people lost in doing his bidding already, right? they were out front in their own campaigns or own service actually trying to be a leader in the maga movement which suggests, as donna said, that this loyalty above all else because we know donald trump doesn't like loser and doesn't like losing, but i suppose if you're a loser who is loyal, loyalty becomes the preeminent qualification of a trump pick. >> donna , what do you see as

the goal here? what does the end result actually look like? >> well, look, i think donald trump learned a lot in his four years. he wants to make sure that he does not have a cabinet of people who might defy him or challenge him or, you know, sort of do anything that would go against what he perceives as his personal interests. so i think you have a group of people and it's shocking. it's not that presidents haven't chosen people who lost elections before. look, hillary clinton, john kerry, others, pete buttigieg in the biden administration. it's just that donald trump's cabinet is going to be peppered, his administration peppered with people who are losers and loyalists and if any of them steps out of line, i think they know what the response will be from donald trump and they aren't going to

step out of line. they are in lock step with the president-elect. >> david, let's look at trump's first term a moment. he had very little experience in washington, took much longer for him to find his footing. now he's putting the focus on loyalty with these picks. do you think there's any chance that trump's attempts to install pure loyalists will backfire and he will find unexpected resistance from some of these people? i think of somebody like marco rubio, yes, he's been tamed by donald trump, but do you think given the fact he's more of an institutionalist, came from the senate, if asked to do something illegal or break the law or something against the conventional wisdom of the u.s. and its norms, stand up to him or are you not putting any hope in it? >> you know, i struggle to find anyone in the list of nominees that will stand up to donald trump. rubio might stick out a little bit, but we've seen what happens. he's already had that test and failed it. you can look at pam bondi at department of justice. she had that test, but she

failed it when she went to pennsylvania and said the 2020 election was stolen. so what if she is asked if the j6 convicts deserve a pardon? what if she is asked if donald trump should have control over who the department prosecutes? unfortunately, i think what we will see from even the seasoned nominees is a public rationalizing why donald trump is right. maybe they'll pull a susan collins or lisa murkowski in the cabinet hearings and we'll see them publicly show angst but ultimately fall in line. i just think donald trump's second administration reflects the true ethos of trump and the maga movement. the 1 opportunity to stand up to donald trump is what united states senators do in these confirmation hearings and unfortunately i think we're seeing the trend to fall in line. >> when you look at what's been coming around like pete hegseth and some of the threats coming out from people like elon musk and the warning signs from thom

tillis, joni ernst, do you have any confidence that the senate might do the right thing even if they do end up confirming them, that a few of them might stand up and have some backbone and speak up for the interest of these positions or no? >> i don't know. this is a cross your fingers moment i think. >> right. >> i don't have a lot of hope. what i do see, though, i think if donald trump and his allies continue to bully senators, i could see how that might actually backfire against somebody like a murkowski or collins in there, but, you know, they appear to be figuring out a way that they can say yes to donald trump on some of these nominees, not really sure about tulsi gabbard, not real sure about rfk jr., but i think hegseth and some others are probably going to go through because i think that republicans will believe that they have to give

donald trump something. >> david, let me get your final thoughts on this, your biggest concerns about this administration, these cabinet picks and the fact these are not people who have proven to have public support. >> yeah. that is kind of a social media cabinet, really unqualified, inexperienced people and that starts with j.d. vance, the pick of our own vice president, who is wholly unqualified to be vice president. if you look at the department of defense, treasury, and state, perhaps, you know, a couple of those we know are seasoned at steady hands, but the defense is really worrisome. i think the national security posture of this administration is something that should worry the nation given how unpredictable donald trump is as a man and as a leader. >> we now have richard grenell as special envoy for special missions, whatever that exactly means. i'm not sure exactly what portfolio that might be, but one can only take a guess. thank you to the both of you, donna edwards, david jolly.

next up, congressman dahlia ramirez on the push for president biden to act now on temporary protections for migrants. ♪ keeping my plans, i'm feeling free. ♪ ♪ control of my uc means everything to me. ♪ ♪♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ now, i'm back in the picture. skyrizi helps deliver relief, repair, and remission in uc. feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks, including fewer bowel movements and less bleeding. skyrizi is proven to help visibly repair colon lining damage, and help people achieve remission at 12 weeks and 1 year. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms, or vaccines. liver problems leading to hospitalization may occur when treated for uc. take control of your uc. ♪ control is everything to me. ♪

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with just weeks until donald trump takes office, democratic lawmakers are urging president biden to protect undocumented families while he still can. senators from the congressional hispanic conference are urging the white house to redesignate or renew temporary protective status for migrants from nicaragua, ecuador, and el salvador and expedite renewals for daca recipients. more than 1 million migraine rants are able to stay and work in this country legally due to tps since their countries of origin have been deemed unsafe. the program was signed into law by president george w. bush, but trump has repeatedly vowed to revoke the program and send those migrants back to their

home countries. joining me now is democratic congresswoman delia ramirez. have you heard about any new movement on this issue? we know the biden administration made permanent a rule that extends work authorizations for asylum seekers but has yet to commit to these specific other priorities. >> yeah. ayman, thank you for having me on. no, we have not heard any concrete, specific decisions on some of what we're asking for. of course, we are calling the administration on a regular basis and making sure that they understand how urgent and important this is. so i am hopeful that those calls are being heard and they're assessing, but, you know, people have been waiting months and years for decisions on their adjustment status. that backlog in some cases can be as far as seven years. this is a moment where the biden administration can extend as many protections and decisions on people's lives. this could mean a family gets to stay together or not before

donald trump comes into office. so we are working really closely. a number of us are going to do some follow-ups when we're back in d.c. this week, but we expect to hear some positive news in extending the most protections as possible to as many people. >> how many people are we roughly talking about here and specifically, what does that do in terms of actual security for them staying in this country? are they ironclad, these measures that president-elect trump when he assumes office can't just simply redo them or undo them with a stroke of a pen? >> look, ayman, this man is a man that does not play by the rules. he's talking about on day one he'll take people's u.s. citizenship birthrights away from them. obviously he cannot do that, but he will stoke a lot of fear and there's a lot he can do with the other trifecta. i think the point we're making is you can't make it easy for donald trump to come into the white house and begin these mass deportations of

individuals who have been here with temporary protective status, daca recipients like my husband was or my brother-in- law is. we have to make sure that we extend as many of those renewals because the onus is on him to undo those renewals versus something that's really easy. the renewal isn't up until february and all of a sudden the program has stopped and you don't get a renewal. so the point we're making is if we go ahead and extend these protections now, it is harder to take them away even if that means it's just a couple months or it's two years. the point is that people are in fear that the following day after the inauguration they may not be able to go to work. they may be up for an order of deportation and we know these are people that have been here since the age of 2, since the age of 4, some like my uncle 35 years here. so we have to extend as much as we can and the president can do that. president biden can do a lot of those extensions now and make it hard for donald trump to do the things he wants to do with

all his anti-immigrant rhetoric. >> what kind of legacy do you think president biden will leave if he does not act on this issue? he ran his own campaign on the promise of a more humane immigration policy. do you think he has done so so far? >> look, he's tried to issue a number of executive orders that you have seen. the courts that donald trump stacked up while he was president made it very difficult. we saw what happened in louisiana. we see what's happening in texas with daca. with that said, you know, the president, president biden, is going to be in that office for a few more weeks and i think it's really important for the american people to know that he is doing everything he can every moment that he is awake trying to make sure that he's extending these protections, that despite the outcome of the election, he is still going to do everything he can while he has power to protect them. that is going to be dependent on what happens in the next few weeks. his legacy could be he did

everything he could for every moment he was in that white house to insure that the most children, the most families are protected from a donald trump who doesn't respect u.s. citizens. he certainly doesn't believe that u.s. citizen children should be able to stay with their parents. >> tom homan, former head of i.c.e. who will serve as trump's border czar, came to your own district this week. he vowed to begin deportation efforts in chicago and threatened the mayor with prosecution if he doesn't cooperate. if joe biden does nothing, how are you and others in your district preparing for these threats and eventual realities if they do follow through on them? >> it's one of those things, right, donald trump talks so much about. i'm not saying i want to take rights from women. i'm saying leave it to states. in this case as it pertains to immigration, every state should be doing everything they can to extend the most protections during their lame duck session. illinois has extended a number

of protections for immigrants in the last seven years actually from the first time he was president and so i think what we'll have to be doing is having a coordinated approach between the state, the city, the counties in order to insure that the laws we have in place where we have jurisdiction over what the federal government can do are, in fact, enforced, that community organizations are providing legal information, know your rights to the many immigrant families who right now are just concerned what's going to happen on january 20th? should i send my children to school on january 21st? how do we make sure if they're going to the courthouse for an appointment, that they're not, in fact, getting arrested? there will be a lot to be done, but i think one of the things we're asking ourselves is saves own act, kind of legislation where you protect certain spaces that are public service sector, that we are, in fact, able to enforce those protections from deportation

since tom homan has decided to come to my district and talk about chicago being ground zero. >> thank you so much for your time, look forward to continuing to cover this story in the remaining weeks of the biden administration. >> thank you. up next, a former health insurance company executive turned whistleblower explains the anger many americans have against the healthcare system in this country. you do not want to miss it. nd . yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

when police finally apprehended 26-year-old luigi mangione at a mcdonald's in altoona, pennsylvania, this week and charged him with the murder of unitedhealthcare ceo brian thompson, the public's fascination with this story only increased. the murderer and man who allegedly committed it continue to spark a national conversation. the first time in a very long time the deep-seated anger in america's for-profit healthcare system is front and center.

americans are taking to social media to share their healthcare horror stories, about being denied care or having claims rejected or going into debt due too illness or injury, and media outlets are not only telling their stories, but actually highlighting some of the predatory practices of this powerful industry. unitedhealthcare is the country's largest health insurer with 50 million customers and multiple reports suggest they also lead the industry this denying claims with a rate at nearly double the industry average. propublica has a powerful new piece out about how unitedhealthcare is strategically limiting access to critical treatment for kids with autism. unitedhealth initially denied to respond to propublica and then said they were in mourning and didn't have time to deal with a nonurgent matter and it's not just united. there are new reports out about how health insurers gave $120 billion to shareholders while denying your claim or how since the affordable care act's passage the top five health

insurers' annual profits have jumped 230%. millions of americans have had their lives and livelihoods ruined by an industry that treats patients not as humans in need of care, but as consumers who generate profit. their voices are now being heard. it's also leading to another phenomenon. that's because just as a big part of this conversation, either the total indifference to the fact that a man was murdered or in some cases outright glee and celebration of the man alleged to have committed it like this scene from a boston concert this weekend where a deejay put mangione's face on the screen to the sound of huge cheers, it's important to put this all in perspective here. the legitimate rage that people are sharing about the health insurance industry should not come as a surprise. the cold and inhumane reactions to the death of the ceo is a reflection of the cold and inhumane economic system that this ceo represents. at the same time vigilantism and murder won't fix it.

as a matter of fact, it may just lead us to more acceptance of the disposability of human life. that's supposed to be what we are all fighting against. at the same time an individual taking matters into his own hands is also a reflection of the helplessness that people feel to enact any meaningful change. we just had a multibillion dollar presidential campaign where neither candidate addressed that we have a sick healthcare system where profits increase as more coverage gets denied. donald trump spent years trying to get rid of the affordable care act and now that he's in office or soon to be is surrounded by billionaires and multi-millionaires who may finally achieve the republican goal of privatizing medicare. on the democratic side kamala harris spent her campaign running away from past support for a medicare for all system that would center it around patient care. if someone is angry at the legalized corruption of the healthcare industry, where can

they channel their anger? who is fighting on their behalf? what movement can they actually join? if any positive can come from this murder, it is that, one, this horrendous and sick system must be fixed and, two, we must have legitimate outlets, movements, or places to channel our anger at these cruel systems and actually have them respond to us. we must have the ability to do something about it in a legal nonviolent and democratic matter. we can be sure the insurance industry will do everything in its power to fight this. when we come back, i'll be joined by a man who knows their playbook as well as anyone, a former health insurance executive turned whistleblower. stay with us. we love the taste. always so fresh and delicious. plus, superior nutrition. ( ♪♪ ) for us, it's eggs any style. as long as they're the best. eggland's best.

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before the break i spoke about the public outrage at the health insurance industry sparked by the murder of unitedhealthcare ceo brian thompson. health insurance companies are now in all-out crisis mode dealing with both security concerns and the public relations fallout from the outcry over their business practices. joining me now, someone very familiar with that pr playbook, wendell potter, a former insurance executive turned whistleblower and now the president of the center for health and democracy. great to have you on the show. this week the new ceo of the unitedhealth group published a piece for "the new york times" and said, "we know the

healthcare system doesn't work as well as it should and we understand people's frustrations with it. no one would design a system like the one we have and no one did. it's a patchwork built over decades. our mission is to help it work better." what do you make of this posture? they are acknowledging the anger of ordinary americans and even that the system doesn't work properly and whether or not we should believe they are trying to make it work better? >> it's like a spin i used to write. yes, you acknowledge there's a problem, but what is obscured in that? these companies are masters at obscuring important truths. yes, no one would have designed this except people like andrew whitty and other executives who profit so much and who make so much money on this healthcare system and they spend massive, massive amounts of money every single year in campaign contributions and lobbying, in their propaganda campaigns to protect this very profitable

status quo and the murder took place just hours -- well, just as this company was starting its investor day in new york. that is a day that is the most important day for these companies because that's a day that executives like andrew whitty and brian thompson who sadly was murdered that day, that's the day that they get to tell shareholders and wall street financial analysts how they plan to make even more money in the coming months. so it's true. they did not design this system, but they spend enormous amounts of money to keep it in place and they know very, very well why people are frustrated, because they perpetrate violence on all of us every single day. an untold number of people die in this country because of the practices of these companies. >> let me pick up on the point you mentioned, both about investor day and something you wrote which i thought was very interesting this week, this op ed about the backlash to the health insurance companies and that with the focus on the insurance companies may be

overlooking the role of wall street in all of this. expand on that for us. what role does wall street have in the corruption, if you will, or maybe for lack of a better word the malfunctioning of our healthcare system? >> if in ten years my name was on every one of cigna's earning reports, i know how these companies made money, where it went and much of it goes into the pockets of these big shareholders. peep people don't understand the role wall street plays in our system of health insurance. it plays an enormous role. these companies bend their knees at wall street because if these companies do not meet wall street's profit expectations, these shareholders will start selling their shares. in fact, over the past ten days

there's been a big selloff of united's shares and the other companies because investors are beginning to see this backlash may have some big consequences. so they see they are vulnerable, but the executives of these companies make sure that they do everything they can to make wall street's profit expectations. they expect these investors for these companies to spend less and less on patients' care every single quarter. if they see there's evidence that they're not doing that, they'll punish them by selling shares of stock. andrew whitty's net worth goes down whenever that happens because they're paid primarily in stock. >> a lot of people took notice when anthem blue cross/blue shield announced it was not going ahead with a policy change that would limit reimbursements for anesthesia during surgery and medical procedures. when they first announced this policy, it was met with

outrage. i believe it was almost on the same day that brian thompson or maybe the day after when he was killed, then around the time of that murder. do you think insurance companies will be announcing more customer friendly policies as long as the public anger and attention is on them and how significant are these changes? are they just kind of cosmetic changes, not addressing the underlying issues? >> i assure you there will be other things like this, other backing off of restricted policies like that, which was just outrageous, and i think thank goodness that a lot of doctors began to speak up about that policy, that change that anthem was implementing in a few states. anthem certainly would have rolled that out to the rest of their health plans around the country if they could have, but i suspect that yeah, we will see some public relations initiatives, some things that they will be announcing that they will do because they want to try to send a message they can self-regulate.

they don't want policymakers to propose any kind of reforms that might hinder their profits. yeah, you'll be hearing a lot. one of the jobs i had in my career was working with my peers across the industry and our trade associations like ahip and the blue cross/blue shield association to develop propaganda campaigns to get people to think we're the good guys. we will respond to public criticism. policymakers don't need to take any actions because we've got this worked out, all the time knowing, of course, that all these years prior to this they've been implementing policies and business practices that make it more and more difficult for people to get the care they need and that they can afford and that includes refusing to pay for medically necessary care increasingly and to make us pay more and more out of our own pockets through high out-of-pocket costs through high deductibles and coinsurance and copayments than we ever have before. so they're refusing to pay four

medically necessary care and also in addition to charging us more for premium every single year, making us pay more out of our own pockets before that coverage kicks in? >> is it possible for the united states to eliminate the for-profit nature of its healthcare system and reform it to something that puts health and patients first and, b, can that be done without any kind of legislation or political action by congress? it's not just going to happen by the goodwill, if you will, of these corporations or is it possible? you tell me. you were on the inside. you know. >> it's possible because keep in mind until the mid-'90s most of the health insurance companies in this country operated on a non-profit basis. most of us got our coverage through non-profit blue cross plans. many of those beginning in 1996 began to convert to for-profit status. then big companies like the ones i worked for humana and cigna, got into health

insurance in a very big way. unitedhealth came in and began gobbling up dozens and dozens of health insurance companies, many that were regional to become the biggest health insurance company in the country. not only is it the biggest health insurance company, it is the fourth biggest company in america. only amazon, walmart, and apple are bigger than united. it's grown that much that rapidly. yes, we can go back. i think we can go back to a time and it will require our employers, also, speaking up and forcing changes and wall street may play a role because i think wall street may decide this is not a good place to make money and maybe these insurance companies could spin their health insurance operations on of into nonprofit operations. >> wendell potter, good to see you. thank you so much and look forward to having many more

conversations with you. >> thanks very much. coming up, the new documentary the israeli government does not want its people to see, i'll be speaking to the filmmakers behind the bb files. with who you love? get back to better breathing with fasenra, an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma taken once every 8 weeks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems. serious allergic reactions may occur. get help for swelling of your face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens or you have a parasitic infection. headache and sore throat may occur. ask your doctor if fasenra is right for you.

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controversy, in fact, winning an oscar for "explore the dark side" how a taxi driver died in american custody at bagram air force base. in 2015 the church of scientology launched a full campaign against his documentary, "going clear, scientology and prison of belief" complete with full-page advertisements against it in the "new york times" and the los angeles times. then last year gibney was approached with over 1,000 hours of leaks footage of benjamin netanyahu and his family as well as his associates and benefactors and became the basis of the documentary the bb files that found a platform on jolt earlier this year. the israeli government blocked the film from being shown in their country citing privacy laws, but israelis are sending clips on social media or watching pirated versions of

the film. i'm joined now by the producer and director of the bb guys. great to have you. alex, a source contacted you and handed over all this damning footage of netanyahu and his associates. when you received this footage, did you know exactly what you wanted to do with it and how important this story was to tell? how did the investigative reporter you worked with on this, raviv ducker, react when you approached him with this? >> well, i needed to know -- i get these calls a lot where somebody approaches me on signal and says, "i've got some secret stuff. you should really be interested." when i heard about this from the source, i looked at the material and it sounded explosive, but i don't speak hebrew. so the first person i got in touch with was raviv who is a very well respected and established executive in israel

and he said it shed a new light on netanyahu and the way he was conducting both domestic and foreign policy. so once i understood that, how important it was and i'm something of a student of corruption and this is a corruption case, i thought i really need to make a film about this. so the first person i turned to was alexis bloom, who has been a colleague of mine over the years and is a very talented documentarian and said please, take this on board and let's make a film. >> alexis, you have experienced working in israel. did you ever anticipate how controversial and heavily censored a film like this might be? what was your initial reaction as well when alex reached out to you and tells you hey, this is a movie about the current prime minister of israel and taking him on or taking that subject matter on would pose a set of challenges that are somewhat unprecedented given we think of israel as a democracy with an open society and open press and now they're censoring

this movie? >> well, i'll say that when alex called, i didn't have any hesitation. it's a very important subject. the material is fascinating and it shows netanyahu in a very frank and candid light and it's better than any sitdown interview that you'll get with him. so there was no hesitation on my part. the film hasn't been censored in israel, just to be clear. there is a preexisting privacy law that pertains to all police investigations, not just this, that you can't show them without permission of the people in the interrogations. so it's not just our film. it's all police interrogation material. that said, obviously sarah, benjamin netanyahu were never going to give permission for to us broadcast this in israel and so it seems inevitable that all of this piracy has gone on because there seems to be a real desire to see it in

israel. >> what is the takeaway from the film, alex, for the people who may not have yet seen this and who will see it soon when you kind of look at the through line and as you said, you've done and worked on a lot of corruption cases? what is the central takeaway of what these bibi files, these interrogations, reveal to you and would reveal to the ordinary viewer? >> well, i think first of all, it pierces sort of the public perception of netanyahu and his wife and his son who, by the way, all exert a tremendous amount of influence on governance in israel. it also reveals a level of corruption that in and of itself is potent, but then netanyahu's attempt to allude any legal reckoning from this corruption is what leads us to the situation we're in now where gaza has become a kind of

a killing field because netanyahu wants to perpetuate a war endlessly so that he can stay out of prison and remain in power which in its own way is the ultimate form of corruption. so it starts with, you know, bribes and ends up with a devastating corruption that has a tremendous human cost. >> of course, we've been talking about the opening front in syria as well. alexis, you suggested lean doing other platforms for distribution which landed you guys at jolt. talk about the challenges you've had getting this film distributed. what have previous distribution and production companies said to you? were they reluctant to take this on given the sensitivity of it or the fact it's post october 7th , the reality of that? what are the benefits of doing something like going to jolt? >> well, i'd say there are very few places who would lean into it the way that alex gibney and

jigsaw did. people tend to self-censor even though nobody is it at the door saying it's the police. you can't say this. because of the political climate, people choose not to say things and we found that a lot of a lot of the streamers didn't even want to watch the film. you know, there was a streamer here or there well, let me talk about it, maybe, but we could put it on maybe next year, which is as good as saying no because clearly this is a film that's timely and it's got to go out as soon as possible. so i would say there's self- censorship and i don't think it's going to get better. >> alex, you worked on many controversial projects, one a documentary series on nbs. what's particularly startling about the pushback on this film and do you think this film might help with holding netanyahu accountable? >> i hope this film helps with holding netanyahu accountable.

he should be held to account and i think for a long time he's wrapped himself in the mantle of statehood and said as long as there's a war going on, you dare not criticize me and i think people need to separate between the man, who is deeply corrupt, and the state of israel because unless we do that, we're all on the road to perdition. >> i encourage everyone to watch this very important documentary film, "the bibi files." thank you so much for making it and sharing it with us. thank you for making time for us. make sure to catch "ayman" saturdays and sundays at 7:00 p.m. on sundays. you can find us on blue sky and instagram and listen to every episode as a podcast. scan the qr code on your screen to get your podcast wherever you listen to them. until we meet again, i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york.

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