search may be concluded. of course it's about safety, that's the first thing. making sure that people are safe, and then we'll go from there. this has been -- i'm sorry, this has been an amazing day for everyone day for everyone when i came across a snake. fedex presents tall tales of true deliveries ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ woah, limu! we're in a parade. >> are you aware if the school had prior threats, and do you know if the shooter had any prior contact with law enforcement.

>> you mentioned the shooter died of a self-inflicted gun wound. did much happen when the shooter saw officers come into the school? >> let me say the cause and manner in which the shooter died will be determined by the end of the day, and the shooter was dead upon our police department arrival and no officers fired their weapons, okay? >> were there any -- >> i'm sorry? >> the state of the search warrants. >> the extent of the search warrant is to go into a place we don't have permission to be in and make sure everybody is okay and if there is evidence we think we need to collect, we can only do that with the use of a search warrant. again, we have to determine if there's evidence that we will need. everybody wants to know what led

up to this and are there any additional threats to public safety, or was this person by themselves? there's lot of questions that we want to answer but we have to answer the safety questions first, and then we will move on to some of the more investigatory questions. >> i am wondering about the metal detectors. at the first meeting you said you were not a fan and this school doesn't probably have them, and do you know about other schools that do and is this something we should start talking about? >> i guess the question is, would you want your child to go to school with or without tal detectors? >> i can't answer that. >> we need to be the safest we can in a school without metal

detectors. >> is christmas at all in your belief related to the shooting? >> again, to the question of motivation. we don't know why. to the question of so close to chris phus, we have a lot of people that will be impacted. it's a christian school and the holidays are important, and students are getting ready to go out on break and now the break will be a little less about celebrating christmas and more about celebrating, perhaps, friends and loved ones and staff members who, perhaps, lost their life. that's why i am asking everybody to, of course, keep abundant life christian school in your thoughts and in your prayers. a couple more. >> real quick. >> it's a private school that takes public money for the metal detector system, and what has it

revealed about gaffes in the security and we need to think about whether other schools -- >> well, what i am telling you is, is in 1997 i began my career as a public schoolteacher and i taught history before becoming a police officer. i did not get far enough to take courses in administration and budgeting of schools. i don't know what governs private schools, if they receive money, where that comes from. that would probably be a question that you would probably need to ask somebody who is more intimately involved in the school system, and what the requirements are if they do receive that, but you can probably compare what has happened or what goes on, their security measures with the security measures of any school in mmsd, and that may give you your answer. >> a quick follow-up. you know there has been

criticisms of the law department and their response particularly from uvalde, and how do that conform your plan today and what were your officers told to do? >> sure, we train on this -- as i spoke about earlier, when officers arrive on the scene, they immediately go in, which we did in this case, stop the threat, stop the killing, find the killer. that's how we train, and that's exactly what we did today. there's no waiting. there's no coordination of who is in charge. everybody knows exactly what to do. i spoke about this earlier. we train on this constantly. our commanders, including the fire chief and i was in a commander's training less than two weeks ago going over this exact same scenario for another fictional location, so all that came into play today and our officers performed extremely well based on their training and

based on the expectations that they know exactly what to do, stop the threat, stop the killing, find the threat. >> could we just do one more -- >> old on. right here. >> thank you, all. i think the questions have been asked and we are straying a little far from what is most important at this point in time, and that is the victims and their families. i have three things to add. first of all, there's a lot that our community can and will do in the coming days to support the victims and their families, and we will have more information at future briefings. if any one, and i would urge you all to include this in your stories, if anyone needs mental health support as a result of the incident and the coverage of it, i encourage them to reach out to 988 by phone or text and

to get the mental health support that they need. it's incredibly important that we take care of our community in this very difficult time. we all have a role in preventing gun violence. our entire community needs to be part of the solution here. there are many things that we can do and we have have those conversations in coming days, but first and foremost, what needs to be the priority for all of us is supporting our young people. and that is where our community's attention needs to turn at this point in time. the police department, the fire department, the city, the county will share additional information about the investigation as it becomes available, but i urge you all to help our community find resources to support their mental health and to find resources to support the victims and families at this time. thank you, all. >> where can we go to see

updates? where do we go? >> me and stephanie will stick around to answer questions, and folks that's all. >> let me say before we go, the mayor mentioned that this was a whole of government response and it certainly was and there's so many people we want to thank. we cannot thank everybody, and even though we are in different agencies, we all have the same training and so i want to thank our partners with the fbi who are here with me today, and partners with the atf, and dane county emergency management, and of course, we already talked about our fire department. we got calls from the attorney general of the united states, wisconsin state patrol, our governor's office, state patrol, ma ma mona, as well as our sheriff's office, and i know i may have left somebody out, but thank you for how you responded, professionally and quickly and

according to the way we all trained and it came together to make sure no other persons were hurt. thank you. >> can you say what time you made entry? >> 9:57 -- >> hi, everyone. we have been listening together to madison, wisconsin, police chief, shon barnes. they have been providing an update on the tragic situation that unfolded this story when a gunman opened fire inside a school. three people at this hour are dead and that includes the shooter, and six people were injured and transported to area hospitals. police say their injuries range from minor to life threatening. the shooter is a teenager and a student at the school which is a small private christian school with around 400 students. the shooting taking place, just days before a scheduled christmas holiday break. at this hour the police say they

are combing through the area or evidence or anything really that could provide information on what happened and why. they do not believe there's an ongoing threat to the public at this time. the police say they do not know the shooter's motive. it's where we start today with the senior msnbc national security and intelligence analyst, frank faluzi is back, and tom winter is back, and democratic strategist and professor at columbia university is back. >> details from the press conference, of which are new, the shooter used a handgun, and we are looking at two individuals at the school and we don't know with certainty -- i apologize and i was cut off at the top of the press conferences, and two students

are deceased, and others are injured from minor to life-threatening injuries, and we don't know if it's students or teachers involves, and the person who was involved in the shooting was a student there, and the school is from kindergarten to 12th grade, and we wouldn't necessarily have that information at this stage unless they had some sort of writing or made a statement prior to this. the chief said something, i think, interesting, they will wait for the medical examiner to make a determination but he pointed out when the officers went into the school the shooter was already deceased and this happened ahead of time. there's two potential outcomes, whether this was a self-inflicted gunshot wound or somebody else there had a gun, but i think he would have said that if that was the case.

and covering the new town school shooting, which occurred 12 years ago plus two days, the impact on this community, whether the shooting happens in february, june, september or december, just a week or so before christmas, it's always going to be traumatic. the way it impacts around the holidays of these families and kids is very, very difficult. that community will go through a very difficult time in the next couple of weeks, so it was refreshing to see a strong and clear and detailed information that we had from that police chief. it was nice to hear them bring it back towards the victims and the families at the end because that is very important and having done this early in my career, all the focus all the time on the suspect, who did it, why did they do it and what was going on, and over the years in speaking with these groups and speaking with victims groups, that's such a huge component. that's the everlasting component

of it and it changed my approach a little bit and it's the reason i mention it here today. again, still need to determine how the weapon was obtained and who this kid was and the motive behind it and figure out if anybody else is going to face charges although there's no indication to date that anybody else is involved in this. >> such an important point you make, and i am so changed by fred and his daughter, jamie, and fred's service, and you arrived at what you are describing a victim-focused lens in which you view these by covering so many of them. i have sat there while parkland and yao uvalde was unfolding. december 16th will mean something different to these families forever, and coming two days after the 12-year

anniversary of newtown is beyond haunting. >> in that particular shooting, the connecticut state police did something that is mirrored across the country which is to essentially assign a trooper to a family, which i think is something that worked out beyond anybody's wildest imagination in providing something to these families to the investigation, and there were never going to be answers that maybe anybody feel better about what happened at new town, that's for sure, and the same thing for this investigation here today. having the fbi and the connections there will be incredibly helpful because they will deal with this tonight, tomorrow, every single day for the rest of their lives because it involves their children. it's definitely a difficult situation for these families. i think once people start to -- we all have justifiable anger

that something like this could occur, but i think when you start to shift your focus a little bit to the families and the victims, or appear akhur for the entire event changes, and there's a lot of research and studying that occurs in the field along those lines and it's something we will hear about in the years to come because it's being listened to by law enforcement and by reporters like myself. there's research occurring and i have heard presentations on this, about what we are seeing with the juveniles in this country, teenagers, in the 10, 11-year-old range, there's not -- not in the united states but another country, an ally of ours, most of their counterterrorism cases involve kids in the mid teens right now, talking about 14, 15, 16 years olds. think about that. i mean, back when there was so many terrorism cases following

9/11, pre 9/11 and since then, most cases involved young males in their early 20s. now we are talking about situations where there are kids in their teens. what are we seeing the downward shift? what are the factors at play? and other members of law enforcement say, and i forget who to properly attribute this to, and when i was a kid you go to your room and you were by yourself, and now you are not by yourself, you are with the phone and the entire world and what is coming through that phone and what you are ingesting speaks to what happened today. we need an investigation to figure that out. >> fran, i think a lot of americans feel like no amount of research will provide a data point about how this could

become so quent where tom and i have a reference for past school shootings, and what is your thought on the ability to make this never happen again? >> over the past seven years on this network i have covered school shootings and mass shootings, generally, and we seem unable. if it's about mental health, great, what you have done about it? show me what you have done to make a difference there, particularly for young people. if you say it's all about securing the school better, we need more armed people and more guns in schools. okay, show me where that worked repeatedly to be a substantive trend, really, because i have cases for you where there were school resource officers and it didn't help.

there are some studies bizarrely that show that sometimes it's a kid that wants to commit suicide but wants it to happen at the hands of the school resource officer, and that could increase shootings at schools, and we are all over the map and we are not talking about securing our guns and gun safety, and the minute you bring up gun safety and enforcing existing laws, securing your guns and being safe around guns, and ensuring in a better way that those who should never have guns can't get in position of one, and people freak out and talk about the second amendment. we have a trend here whether it's the elementary school kid in virginia whose mom was charged for not securing the gun properly and the kid shoots a teacher, whether it's michigan where the mom and dad are arrested for allowing their son

to have an unsecured weapon and there's a school shooting, whether it's georgia, where a father has been charged in a school shooting. i want to say this. if you have an unsecured gun in your house and unsecured ammo, and you have kids that have access to that to your house generally, you have to secure the weapons now. go do it now. we will be back here when you get back. the holidays are coming and you say, i don't have kids over my house, but i will for the holidays. secure the gun and ammo now. if you need no other motivation other than the fact that somebody could get killed, you will go to prison if you don't secure that weapon. wisconsin has a law that says you can't allow unsecured access to -- for a weapon to a child underage 14, and we don't know the age of the shooter here but we have to get better at that. we are entering and talk about our society's inability to deal

with this, but there's already a lot of reporting on what the trump administration as they come in intends to do with the agency, the miniscule agency, where we say can you enforce the existing laws. it looks like they will continue to slash the budget or leave the agency without a director, just no leadership whatsoever. they could do away with the whole agency. the agency is dealing with a $50 million cut to its already inadequate budget. if you want to watch how a society treats gun violence, look how they treat the agency responsible for just enforcing gun laws. we don't take it seriously. >> frank, say more. >> i have friends in the atf and

worked alongside them and know the leadership at the agency, and the gop in particular can't stand the agency because they are actually are supposed to go out and take guns out of the hands of really bad people. they are supposed to look at gun shows and whether background checks are being conducted or not. they have done amazing things legislative in the last couple of years in terms of addressing untraceable ghost guns and that seems to drive the trump crowd crazy. you mean i can't make my own untraceable gun in my garage? yeah, that's what we are saying. we are trying to keep kids safe, and a tiny agency with a couple

hundred agents around the world, we don't take this seriously. >> let me show you the mayor of madison. we saw her a little bit at the end of the press conference making some of these same points tom and frank are making. >> i think we need to do better in our country, in our community to prevent gun violence. and i hope -- i hoped this day would never come in madison. it's not something that any mayor, any fire chief, any police chief, any person in public office ever wants to have to deal with. i will ask our entire community and our entire country to do whatever we can to make sure that no public official ever has to stand in this position again. >> we are an extraordinarily violent country, and hypocritical in how we deal with it, because on the one hand

danny penny chokes a black man to death on a subway car in front of people, a person himself who was mentally ill, the victim, and gets invited to the sweet by the president-elect of a football game in celebration of his deed, yet we have no momentum and motivation as a nation to get rid of this violence in schools among young people. how is that even possible in this country? i really do want to key in on what the mayor and chief said in that press conference, because the chief was asked whether or not if he was a fan of metal detectors of schools and if there should be, and there were a lot of parents and a lot of research on whether or not there should or should not be, but the truth of the matter is, if you are a parent sending your kid to a school, how else are you going to feel safe? the truth is you have to deal

with it as a society. we have to deal with it before they get to the school door so the metal detectors are relevant. the second point, which is what the mayor said about making sure we understand the mental health issues involved. our schools are woefully underfunded and understaffed when it comes to guidance counsellors, and to your point about young men, what they are engaged in and how they feel, and we are staring down a crisis that will get a lot worse. there are certain parts of the country to me that feels like they would rather embrace it rather than tamp it down and fix it. to frank's point, if you have agencies that just need to do their job and you are willing to

cut their budget. i have been shot as a child and i know people who have been killed as children in their teens and preteens. every bullet that gets expended here is a person that is potentially just taken out of our society, right? have we ever talked -- we have, but what are we going to do about the trauma associated with that at a young age when parts of your neighborhood are disappearing, whether it's around the holidays or not, right? >> right. >> and parts of your neighborhood are disappearing, and we are addicted to it in this country and there's no end in sight. >> to your point about rings of trauma, and the debate about metal detectors, they are doing shooter drills, and a generation

of men and women traumatized by the threat of guns in their schools is a box nobody has dared to open as of yet. frank, thank you for starting us off. when we come back, we will turn to politics. one of trump's most controversial picks on capitol hill today, and causing concern over the future of vaccines and health because of his positions, and we will look how kennedy looks at that. then, the drones, nobody is telling us anything about anything, and we will unpack why that is. and then trump's new mass

deportations, and we will talk to one person here in georgia that no longer feels like he belongs. we will continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i'm kevin hart. i'm a leading man, ceo, media mogul, a board member... he keeps going and going and going... just like my chase freedom unlimited rewards! is there an off switch? no, you can't shut it off. 'tis the season to cashback with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? time's running out to save on your move with pods. book by december 16 to save up to 25% off your upcoming move. with no deposit now and no surprise costs later. don't miss out! book now with code gift25 at pods.com

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insurance. ♪ ♪ people love to find me. but me, i love finding the perfect gift. like for my friend wenda, who loves coffee. or my neighbor, who's become surprisingly flexible. or my dog, woof, who may look little but he eats big. ♪ ♪ gifts that say i get you. etsy has it. the trump cabinet pick who may be the toughest pill to swallow for senate republicans heads to capitol hill this week. trump's pick noted anti-vax

activist, kennedy jr. has been at odds with donald trump specifically on his conduct and basic fitness for office, and, of course, at odds with science itself on multiple health fronts. here's what rfk has said about donald trump over the years, including as recently as six months ago. >> in many ways he's discredited the american experiment with self governance and he's a bully and i don't like bullies. >> hitler had, like, a plan. hitler was interested in policy. he had a historical view. >> what donald trump mull that. there's also rfk's own checkered past, allegations of sexual misconduct against him, and he has been accused of sexual

assault in the rate 1990s by a woman willing to testify before the senate. in july, rfk apologized to her claiming he did not remember what happened. his accuser telling "the washington post" that rfk's apology was, quote, disingenuous and arrogant, and all of this, his stance on abortion and his opposition to trump are important questions for senators to ask, but the biggest flash point for his prospects remains over concerns of what rfk will do with one of the cornerstones of health, and that's vaccines. >> nothing is going to happen very quickly. i think you will find that bobby is much -- he's a very rational guy. i found him to be very rational. you are not going to lose the

polio vaccine. i have friends very much affected by that, and they are not in good shape because of it and many people died. the moment they took the vaccine, it ended. dr. jonas salk did a great job. i don't anticipate that at all. but we will look at why the autism rate is higher, and there's something wrong and we will try finding that. >> we will repeat every time there's no evidence tying vaccines to autism. joining our conversation, msnbc contributor, betsy woodrow swan is here, and columnist, and

stykes is still with us. we were on the air friday when the polio story broke earlier in the day, and by the time we got off the air mitch mcconnell responded and criticized and condemned kennedy's position on the vaccine. what is your sense of how aware senate republicans are of the specifics of how aggressively rfk has pushed against approvals and requirements and vaccines like the polio vaccine? >> they are aware of it. mitch mcconnell put out that statement a couple days ago, and that would have heightened the extent of rfk's record. i spoke earlier today to senate republican aide who said one of the biggest problems rfk will face in addition, of course, to

the anti-vaccine conspiracy monitoring comes in two separate buckets, and one, of course, is concerns that anti-abortion senators have about rfk's most consistent support for abortion rights. the conservatives one, that's some of their top issues and they feel discomfort for voting for somebody to head the part of the part of the government ahead of the responsibilities here, and that does not mean rfk is dead on arrival in the senate, and far from it. the safe bet is senate republicans will give trump what he wants. but some of the meetings rfk will be having this week are uncomfortable, and another

challenge for him will be republicans from heavy agriculture states, and he leveled criticism for pesticides and other tools that they have tried to increase crop yields and critical of genetically modified foods being grown, and for farmers in the agriculture states, they worry about trump being mad at them but they really, really worry about the farm bureau mad at them and that's the core of the economy for some of the states. for some of these senators going back home and making the case against rfk would be slightly easier if they vote no because they will be able to point to agg business in their state. the safe money is always on senate republicans doing what trump wants, but rfk is definitely in a more complex and challenging situation than many

other trump's picks? >> trump's politics and rfk are abundantly clear. he's sort of a myth logical folk hero, and trump sees that as an important piece of the political coalition. to betsy's point it's completely at odds with trump's coalition for all of his extreme policies they are oddly different about and that's the abortion space. rfk said, quote, i support it, end quote, and that was about the polio vaccine, what do you think about the spaghetti at the ball, say anything kind of approach to get him into the cabinet? >> well, this is a very complex and challenging nomination because the agriculture issue is a big deal, and the question of vaccines where they are going,

and allegations of sexual assault are not in any way to be disqualified to being part of the trump administration, but the hearings are going to be interesting and i am curious to know how aggressive the public health lobbying and public health community is going to be in talking about the threats that many -- the many of rfk's ideas would have, and what it would mean for children's held, and what it would mean for ability to handle the next pandemic. many of his ideas may be popular oncertain podcasts, but they are way, way outside of the mainstream. most americans have no idea of the things he has said, and things that he has done, and the consequences of his ideas. >> one of the things, to charlie's pointed, i am curious about the public health

response, because in trump 2.0, what does resistance of 2.0 look like, and he will be in charge of the research funding, so regarding his position on abortion assuming he gets past the senate, is he going to find ways to promote trump's view of it or his view of it through the allocation of the research dollars, particularly the hospitals and so on. that's how i think we have to start looking at it, that it's not necessarily the protests -- i know that's important, but there needs to be sort of a look at how the dollars are going to be spent and how you talk to him about making sure that all of the things that we used to fund in terms of research are getting done. very quickly, the scary part is that some of what he talked about with the vaccine skepticism hits certain

communities, communities of color, and during the covid pandemic, there were specific outreach to those communities because of that concern, and rightfully so because of the health -- the science against us in the history, right? there's a lot of concern, rightfully so. again, this is where there has to be real community engagement and that's where the resistance 2.0 really makes a difference, to be able to say, look, he might be talking about, you know, getting rid of this vaccine or reducing the support for this, but how is it going to affect our community? do you have pockets of health issues we didn't have before as a result. the measles, bumps and rue bella, and i don't know what rubella is, and that's good. >> betsy, who, if anybody,

understands the gravity of trump tapping somebody rather casually that could bring back eradicated diseases? >> mitch mcconnell, for starters, of course, somebody who had polio as a young child and has been very vocal about his grappling with that horrible illness, and on friday, to your point, spoke out about the fact that this polio vaccine has been lifesaving for so many americans. the question, of course, will be to what extent do senate republicans feel that despite the immense overwhelming body of research in defense of these vaccines proving they are not only safe and effective but that they save lives and can improve the quality of life, despite that research is it more important to some of the senate republicans that they will in turn give trump whatever he wants. and another thing is part of

rfk's strategy is reaching out to senate democrats, and cory booker of new jersey suggested he could be open to voting for rfk because much some of the environmental environmental advocacy, and sanders also showed he could support him, and if one or two republicans peel off, which seems like not a crazy bet, there are hopes democrats might step in and potentially get rfk across the line. then the additional questions becomes to what extent does schumer put pressure on his conference. >> well, it's not just strange, and he is good on corn syrup and

some of the things michelle obama championed about fitness, and he is also accused of sexual abuse, and this is from the post saying rfk sent a apology, saying, i am not sure how somebody has a true apology for something they don't recall, and i do not get a sense of remorse. this could be a real spectacle if some of these women who have accused multiple trump picks of sexual misconduct decide to speak out during the confirmation process? >> well, she's not anonymous and has not been intimidated. again, we have seen in this political environment, something like that which ought to be disqualifying is not disqualifying. i think there's going to be a lot of dramatic tempo ten shawly

coming up. and it really was -- i am glad betsy highlighted mitch mcconnell's statement. there is -- the potential of bringing in people who have suffered from some of the diseases in the past is great. and we don't know what rue rubella is, and i don't know what it is and that's a good thing because of the vaccines. again, i hope senate democrats don't follow the pattern of virtually everybody else in american society right now and decide they are going to preemptively rollover and surrender, because there are so many specifics that need to be -- >> amen. -- addressed, and we need to educate the public. and one more thing, i will be very interested to see what the reaction will be when people

begin to realize that rfk jr. is proposing all kind of super nanny state restrictions, no going to the point of what he's doing to the agriculture industry, but there's a lot of baskets of things that will be discussed and exposed. we are more than a month away from the inauguration, so the apo research, you know, it has always been a target-rich environment, but with rfk jr., i think there's more to come, i think. >> thank you so much for being part of this conversation. ahead, drones have been lighting up the night skies since november and we still have no good conclusive answers as to who is operating them or even why. we will bring you that story, next.

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♪♪ vicks vapostick provides soothing non-medicated vicks vapors. easy to apply s vapostick. and try new vaposhower max for steamy vicks vapors. with this next story, we will be careful to separate what we know and what we don't about the drone sightings, and we know the fbi and department of homeland security have said there's no evidence any of the reports pose a national security or public safety threat, nor they say is there any evidence that a foreign power is responsible. we know that of nearly 5,000

reported to the fbi said few generated credible leaves for the investigation, and two men were arrested in boston charged with flying a drone dangerously close to logan international airport and the runway was closed on friday night in new york due to drone activity, and governor hochul is urging congress to act and schumer is urging federal agencies to use special drone technology. what we don't know is who is operating these drones, for what reason and whether or not this is something coordinated or a bunch of people flying drones and posting about it online and we are over blowing the whole thing. we don't know. joining the conversation, ben rhodes. my time in government was post 9/11, and how is it possible

there's stuff in the skies and nobody knows what it is? >> well, i mean, you know, one simple answer might be that there's just been a huge proliferation of drones and people using drones recreationally or for different purposes, and you set it up in your opening, nicole, what i think the u.s. government needs to do, explain why if you are making the determination there's no national security threat, presumably there's a basis for that and explain why you are reaching that calculation. frankly, in an age where a conspiracy theory can spread fast, they need to give a answer with clarity. you know, again, explain your reasoning and rationale and give people a sense of why they are seeing these in the skies

because you don't want the unease to spread. >> what would separate a drone that is not a national security threat from a drone that could have a bio hazard attached to it? how would they know which was which? >> you know that presumably through some kind of bio detection or threw the actions of the drone itself. the reality, though, people should be aware, we are in a new world where there's all kinds of autonomous vehicles, and the federal government's capacity to trace the purpose of every drone is inherently impossible, and people are using them for recreational purposes, photographer, and obviously to your point about 9/11, there are paw rim perimeters where drones cannot fly, airports, which you talked about, so this could be a time to refresh the public communication about what the

rules are around what can be used -- what drones can be used for. you know, people -- we are now in one of the moods where people are looking for things in the sky to be uneasy about and post on social media, and that's when you want to get all the information that you have. we will sneak in a quick break and get basil's thoughts on this on the other side. don't go anywhere. so we won't stop until no child dies of cancer. because that's what you do for family. this holiday season, join our st. jude family. we need you. please donate now. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! —uh. —here i'll take that. [cheering] ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar and a protein blend to feed muscles up to 7 hours. ♪♪

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fire. it's another sign of chaos. >> conspiracy theories travel faster than the truth and somebody has to get out there with information, and i am thinking about the balloon where we didn't understand where it came from for a while. somebody needs to get out there and talk about where this is coming from. it could be something as stupid as elon musk creating sky net and putting all his satellites in the sky and nobody is really talking about it, but when you start reporting that they are interfering with airports, you are putting a lot of peoples' lives in jeopardy, so whoever is in charge of talking about this needs to get out there and do it, but it's scary stuff. the scarier part is if it's nothing, if it's something relatively innocent, the fact that the conspiracy theory will start traveling quickly means that we are going to have to tamp down more information as a

result of that. please, get to the heart of this. >> yeah.>> alright, basil, than for spending the whole hour with us. when we come back, must read reporting led to important stuff, and there was a man that came to the united states as an infant and now fears being deport from the country he and his family have ever known. we will bring that to you, next. (sneeze) (hooves approaching) not again. your cold is coming! your cold is coming! thanks...revere. we really need to keep zicam in the house. only if you want to shorten your cold!

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deport more illegal aliens than any president before. he is prepared to do that in many ways he was not in the first term. >> we will deport every illegal we can find. >> is it your plan to deport everyone who is here illegally over the next four years? >> i think you have to do it. and it is -- it is a very tough thing to do. it is -- but you have to have -- you know you have rules,

regulations, they came in illegally. >> hi, again, everyone. it is now 5:00 in new york. donald trump and his allies said what they plan to do. they will begin, quote, the largest deportation in american history. focusing first on deporting criminals, once that is done they will go after every undocumented immigrant in the country. that is their words. that includes people like himi. he was brought to the united states illegally with his mom and dad when he was an infant. less than one years old. he is now 33 years old with a wife and four young children. there is heart wrenching new reporting about cachua. describing his own story. one family's story. a family in crisis now. trying to make sure that this man, jaime. who spent three decades as a law a bidding member of the

community does not get deported. jaine had never broken a law of any kind, he worked 50 hours a week at the dealership, drove below the speed limit, paid his taxes on time and smoothed creases out of books before returning them on time. but one rule he broken before he was old enough to walk or talk when his family drove him across the border because his mother had found work at a chicken-processing plant outside of rome, georgia, more than 30 years later his presence remains illegal. he was not ilgible for social security or food stamps or unemployment benefits or any health insurance he could afford. his father-in-law, who voted for donald trump partly because of his hard line immigration stance could not understand how or that his family would be effected. quote, all of those criminals that trump has been talking about, the rapist, the gang

member presidency, that is not you, sky said, he heard trump say he would deport the bad guys first and possibly show leniency to immigrants who were brought to the country as children. quote, you deserve to be here, sky said, to me you are basically american. but i'm not, jaime said. times reports that his latest plan to travel back to mexico to wait for paperwork and re- enter the united states and then apply for legal residency. he tells the story about jaime and his wife going to see an immigration lawyer. times reports this. quote, jaime and jennifer drove out of rome passed the maga souvenir stand and toward the suburban atlanta law office of uriel delgado. they gave him jennifer's binder of evidence, routine, artifacts, taxes, letters of support. car payments others mortgage

papers, it is cut and dry, a perfect case. so, easy? not exactly delgado said. trump equivocated over the years how to treat daca. now they are eager for deportation, right now in terms of how alarmed i am about the next four years i'd say the situation is a 9 out of 10. he told them about some of his other clients in the last few weeks, the daily panic he witnesses in the office, desperation, devastation, all he had to offer for consolations were dead ends, quote, so, yeah, he said, make that a 10 out of 10. even an easy case just got very hard. extraordinary new piece of reporting about one man, one family and a father-in-law who voted for donald trump. this is where we start the hour with some of our favorite

reporters and friends. e of our reporters and friends. executive producer of the movie "separated" based on the book of the same name about mass deportations and family separation during the first trump administration. "separated" will be available to download everywhere you rent movies tomorrow. joining us former assistant attorney and president of the leadership conference on human rights is here. and at the table. scholar and professor at princeton university. jacob. jaime's story it is so powerful because it is one family's story about their world being blown up five weeks ago on election day in america and what is so unique is that it is this -- it is this truism about trump voters that the ones who voted against their own family's interests, his father- in-law, his daughter is married

to jaime, voted for trump. your thoughts? >> reporter: there are -- that is one story but hundreds of thousands potentially like that, nicolle, young people that received daca and did everything right to make things right with an immigration, they came here as kids and allowed to be here because of a determination made by the department, the same department of homeland security that now may reverse course and kick them out of the united states of america. when you hear somebody like ken say, and i want to make sure i got it right "more than any president ever in the history of the united states of america." we are not talking about just criminals, violent criminals. i think there is a duty for the incoming trump administration to define what criminal means. does it mean jaime who crossed

the boarder as a young child, no fault of his own, living his life as a tax paying -- without just the name american citizen, a citizen of the united states. a neighbor to people like you and i, a schoolmate, a class mate, a co-worker. those stories are endless in this country. when we talk about mass deportation. the greatest in the united states of america. orders larger than dwight d. eisenhower, we are talking about mass deportation. barack obama deported more than any in the history of this country. >> they deported $2.9 million and 2.1. let me read more about this reporting about jaime. more than anger or even fear, what he had experienced most in the last several weeks of the

rising sense of disorientation about the people he loved and the place he considered home. he lived all but the first year of his life in rome, georgia. he was a customer service specialist at the local car dealership, a worship team volunteer at church and the host of family bbq in his neighborhood cul-de-sac. lately the trucks at his dealership had trump flags, his church group was discussing borders and his neighborhood was lined with political signs including one that read "start shipping off illegals, now." more than 70% of voters in surrounding floyd county chosen trump including many of jaime's friends and family members. this is about his father-in- law. i will straight with you, i voted for trump. i believe in a lot of what he says. quote, i figured as much jaime said, you and everyone else. quote it is about protecting our rights as a sovereign country, sky said, we need to

shutdown the infiltration on the border. it is not about you. quote, it is about me, jaime said, that's the thing i don't understand. >> it is about jaime. something else struck out to me about what his father in law said and i am glad you are highlighting this. nobody is putting you on a bus unless they get by me. this is sky the father-in-law saying this to jaime, the undocumented family member. guess what, that is just simply not true. the idea that you can stand in between an undocumented family member and the department of homeland security, ice, coming to find people according to the reporting potentially workplaces and schools, houses of worship, places that we once thought, protected by the u.s. government, those days may be numbered if reporting like they are doing bears onut to be true. no reason to believe that it wouldn't be. they reported the family separation was under

consideration in the earliest days of the trump administration, they deported, excuse pea, ripped apart 5500 children from their parents, deported parents without their children. today, 1,360 of those children do not have confirmed to be with their parents it is people like sky and jaime in the mixed- status families that will be first to experience this. >> i keep thinking about the power of the story. one story, one family. i am grateful to have this story. i wonder if many feel like jaime's father in law. they are not talking about you. >> but they are talking about him. his son-in-law. >> there is what happens when we lose sight of the human and can traffic in the category. what does it mean to call a

human being illegal. illegal aliens. the image in sky's mind is this image of ms-13, threatening people. not his son-in-law. and so when you traffic in these kind of stereo types, these abstracted categories designed to cultivate hatred and grievance you end up signing on unwilling there to the disruption of people you love. to people that you don't think can get caught up in this. and i think this is part of the insidious work of what is going on. the question that we have to ask ourselves is, what will this mass deportation policy ask of us? right? what will we have to concede to and consent to in the midst of what will be a horrible, horrible event? >> i mean. it is likely those of us living in new york will have a front row seat to what eddie is talking about. this is from the associated press. new york city mayor meets with trump's border czar to discuss how to go after criminals,

adams met with trump's border czar on thursday with the democratic mayor showing an enthusiasm to work with him to pursue violent criminals in the city while trump promises mass deportations, the meeting marked adams latest step to collaborating with the trump administration, a development that has startled critics in one of the most liberal cities, your thoughts? >> reporter: well, first, let me say that there is nothing new about mayor eric adams using right-wing talking points when it comes to immigrants, migrants, but what makes me so sad about this is for example in my neighborhood the number of neighbors that i have who are on temporary protected status because they are haitian or even the people that i get to see when i am in the store who are not mixed status but have been working in that store for years and sending money home to put kids through

college or pay medical bills for family members. i can not help but see them as the fabric of my community. here is the thing when i was council to the mayor one of the things we did as the city council we passed the -- sanctuary law. if a woman was being battered she felt safe going to get help. people needed had health care could go to a public hospital without fear that they were going to be trafficked back to their countries of origin because they simply sought help that we were willing to provide. and i say that because when we think about the consequences for this, this is both ripping families apart but it is also shreding communities and driving people under ground when we have so much shared interest in making sure that they can continue to make the

contributions that they make to communities, to families, to our economy every single day. >> jacob let me show you how trump is answering questions on where immigrants who are deported will go. >> sir, with-in terms of your mass deportation plans have you have discussions with venezuela from where the gang is now popping . >> they will take them back. >> they are all taking them back. yep. and if they don't they will be met very harshly economically. okay. they will all take them back. you know venezuela and other countries were not behaving well with us during my administration and within 24 hours they will be behaving very well. they will all take them back. >> do you have any independent confirmation that all of these countries from which various asylum seekers, immigrants,

migrants, temporary workers hail are taking everybody back? >> reporter: no, of course not. i will take it one step further. what president-elect trump is aing there he is a firm believer what is objectively the failed decades long for a better part of generation, bipartisan punitive based immigration part of the united states. under democrats and republicans said we are going to harm people, criminalize people who are immigrants coming to this country to scare people away from coming back. i went to haiti during this administration, biden administration when we all remember the thousands of haitians under the bridge in texas became the largest expulsion of haitians in the united states. biden sent them back to haiti many to face most likely death in some of the most dangerous neighborhoods of the country facing incredible amounts of political instability. you know what happened then? the number of haitians coming back to the united states

started to rise because nothing will stop people from leaving desperate and dangerous situations when on the other side of it is the united states of america and the promise of a better and safer life. so, the idea that you are going to send venezuelans back to venezuela and not think they are going to attempt even if the country will accept them to come pack to this country or to haiti or to the northern triangle countries of central america where most of the children who were separated deliberately in the most extreme policy, united states ever attempted came from it is not based in the objective reality of what happens in the face of deterrent-based policies f. they did, nobody would come here it is the stated policy as long as i have walked on planet earth. >> yeah, i mean it is what led to republicans like reagan and george w bush and john mccain

to adopt pathways to citizenship and more policies based in reality. reality of human nature. i need all of you to stick around. i need to sneak in a break. much for the panel and the growing reality and preparations for trump weeks ahead of his inauguration. also ahead, warning shops, russia is intensifying its hostilities against nato. we will try to understand what is going on and what putin is up to and what could happen to nato once trump is sworn in. >> sending a clear signal, opposition to reproductive freedom and the rights to women to have access to abortion health care. we will tell you about it. deadline white house continues after a break. deadline white house continues after a break. ♪ keeping my plans, i'm feeling free. ♪ ♪ control of my uc means everything to me. ♪ ♪♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪

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. we are back. eddie, the, the human capacity for suffering, from the suffer of someone they don't know is blown out of the water by this piece of reporting. this is a father-in-law confronted with what his vote for trump did to his own daughter, grandkids, son-in- law. >> that is what we do. we detach from the human beings in our lives. this will not effect you, right. only effect them. when it dawns on you that it will effect the people that you love you don't know what to do at that moment. part of what we have to realize is that we are being asked to conform to this. and the thing is that it goes against america itself

understanding. the western fronteer, also have the statue of liberty. immigration is central. it always has been vexed, very vexed for the country. precisely how the country imagines itself. there is that last line in baldwin's open letter to angela davis, they exactly for you in the morning and if they do, they will come for us at night. right. that night. and so, as we open up the door for this kind of cruelty it is going to touch us. and if we concede and conform to it, it definitely will touch us. >> mia what is the cure for this -- this dehumanization, this detachment from what -- i mean because to trump's credit he said it all out loud. the fabric of the campaign. jacob was standing in front of the mass deportation signs, this was a pledge. and unlike eight years ago people waived the signs around. they chanted and cheered to

these lines. what mass deportation means is that people like jaime live in a family where his own father- in-law voted against the interest of his children. and him. he has been here since he was an infant. >> stories like jacobs and coverage like yours nicolle are important. i think we have to be sure that we are understanding and extending grace to those who really are worried about very high-levels of migration, who are seeing and experiencing some stress in their communities because new york, we see it too, there are so many migrants that come into the community and because we have not been resourcing the problem solving that we could and should be resourcing to ensure it is not an us/them. that said i want to under score

that knowing that we must and can have problem solving that ensures the communities are safe, that people are safe, and as we are starting to see the pain get taken out on real people. that we are telling the stories and making the connections between what we could be doing and what we are not making everything better for everyone. to eddie's point it is simply not the case that it has to be an us/them. does not mean we can do everything but it certainly is true that we can do a lot more to say, first of all, if crimes are committed we have a way of handling that no matter who commits them including people who are in this country without documentation and recognizing who are we if we say that a child should be deported despite the fact that they are a citizen of these united states because their parent isn't. who are we if we do that? and that is the question we

have to call on. we have to call it collectively. we have to do it with grace and willingness to listen to what the problems are when we have migration in the communities and make sure everybody is getting taken care of appropriately. >> if you take the names off of the numbers you might think 2.9 million deported. 1.9 million deported were the numbers of people under republican president but those were under barack obama's administration, under trump it was 1.5 million. joe biden deported 1.1 million. what is, what is -- just take me back in time a little bit to what barack obama's strategy was, what the political response was and what the response in the immigration communities was. >> i think during the barack obama administration they fell into the trap of treating migrants like the political football that we have seen over

the course of mentioned the better part of a generation, numbers on a chart or a bar graph or data points or people coming across the border faceless and nameless rather than the humanity that we saw during the family separation crisis. the way i like to talk about it. it was almost like for a moment in the summer of 2018, we all could see and understand what the immigration system has done to people in this country for decades. to punish them for coming here in order to seek a better life. we all lost that over the course of the last four years. when i got back from ukraine i stood on the border in tijuana as the u.s. government sent in thousands of white ukrainian immigrants as the black and brown ones just stood there. they were white and from ukraine led into this country

by the dozens at a time. and, so, what is it going to take to get that vision back to understand as professor mentioned the humanity of each and every one of the people that go through this system that everyone is a person. that during the barack obama administration this was just as much a political issue as it was during the trump campaign and precedency. it is when we look at the people that fall into the system as humans that people around the world rise up and say this treatment of other fellow humans is not okay. it was the people of the world that stopped the family separation policy not trump. he said i did not like the sight and feeling of families separating. he was talking about the people protesting not over watching the policy that he himself put into place >> jacob what would you predict is the first flash points to be? i know sort of that churches are not going to turn over, workplaces are trying to figure out how to deal with this.

what is your sense of where the friction points will be. >> someone handed me recently here in l.a. "know your rights" pamphlet here. those presentations are going to be going on if they are not already all around, not just where i am in southern california but all around the united states of america including in the interior. i went to a church where one of those trainings was going on in 2017 at the beginning of the last trump administration where i met a mixed documented family which i stayed in touch with. families like that, places like that, that we have all sort of universally agreed are safe places or violated. i believe there is a chance of that happening quickly and early in the next trump term that i think, and i hope, people will wake up and you call today a flash point. i think people will develop that x ray vision again. i remember in highland park here in southern california when there was a father if i am

remembering the story correctly taking the child to school and detained by child enforcement. these terrors when they leave and become very much a real specific story of a human in the day to day life in a place like any one of the four of us were to go over the course of any given day. that is when people will wake up and notice. this is not some mass deportation plan of nameless, faceless, millions of criminals that does not exist but of real people part of the fabric of american society as mia said. >> first let me lift up jacob and what he has been doing. i was thinking and sitting here thinking about the babies crying in the detention centers and then i was thinking of the image of oscar martinez and his 2-year-old daughter facedown in the rio grand. these are human beings, babies others fathers, risking for

what? economic opportunity because america extracts so much, it attracts because it extracts. thinking about that 2-year-old baby facedown and those babies crying. maybe we can connect to the humanity of the people that we are about to . >> we can try. >> we will try here with your help. >> jacob, mia, eddie, thank you for starting us off on this hour on this incredible piece of reporting. our thanks to the "new york times" as well. why russia is ramping up [indiscernible] putin is doing and why, that is next doing and why, that is next utter on jelly... on gold. get four iphone 16 pro on us, plus four lines for $25 bucks. what a deal. ya'll giving it away too fast t-mobile, slow down. oh... stuffed up again? so congested! you need sinex saline from vicks. just sinex, breathe, ahhhh! what is — wow!

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. i will be honest, the security situation does not look good. it is undoubtedly the worst in my lifetime and i suspect in yours, too. this all points in one clear direction. russia is preparing for long- term confrontation with ukraine, and with us. this requires us all to be faster and fiercer. at this time to shift to a wartime mind set. >> that was the new secretary general of nato on thursday and his first major speech as head of the alliance calling for all its members to shift to a wartime mind set and turbocharge the defense. amid russia's war in ukraine

and targeting of allied support of ukraine as well as security across europe. it comes as politico is preparing that russia's defense with a meeting with putin that russia should prepare for war with nato in the next decade and this new reporting in the wall street journal about a german's aircraft violent brush with russia in the baltic sea. the russian vorvet responded by shooting flares at the aircraft forcing the pilot to turn back. flow one was hurt and the helicopter designed to hunt and destroy submarines was not damaged. german officials said. this incident on november 26th, the details of which haven't previously been reported was part of a increasingly heated standoff between russia and the north atlantic treaty organization in europe, with baltic emerging as the key flash point in a confrontation unseen since the height of the

cold war. joining our coverage. former ambassador to russia is here. and lucky for us barack obama national security advisory ben rhodes back with us. ambassador, your thoughts? >> i grow with the new attorney secretary. these are dangerous times. russia is preparing for war for a long war. if you look at their spending plans over years it is designed to keep the war going in ukraine. it is also, i think, increasingly putin is riskier and riskier in trying to threaten nato. i think what he will do eventually. he will test our commitment to article 5. an attack on one is an attack on all. something small, by the way, not tanks but a special forces operation in a small city on the border and then they will leave and then he will dare us to say are you going to defend your allys? and he thinks we won't and then nato will collapse. >> let me read more of this

reporting and ask you to pull that thread a little more for us. blaming russia for the attack. the wall street journal reports nato struggled to respond to these assaults and some cases the authorities have decided not to attribute them to russia to not spread panic among their populations. is that the right path ambassador mcfaul? >> reporter: you know hard to say if i don't know all of the details but yes, it is right. we don't want to panic. we don't want to have, you know, planes shooting at each other causing world war iii but what we need to do is strengthen deterrence. more military spending in europe. we need more cooperation between our nato allies in europe in terms of industrial production and we need more aid

to ukraine. you want to deter russia help the ukrainians stop them in ukraine so they will not have the capacities to threaten lithuania and lithuania, -- excuse me. don't listen to them, listen to the leaders of the countries. that is what they worry about. they worry that a victory for putin in ukraine will make them next on the list for putin. >> i mean, i can not help but think of john bolton and hr mcmaster and others who worked for trump and all their efforts behind-the-scenes and more to force, demand that trump not pull out of nato. it feels like if he does do what he feared he would do, just about every day of his first term, it will not be on a trip or in a speech it will be around a flash point like this. >> reporter: yeah, i mean the spectrum of possibilities in

the second trump term runs wider than the first when you had a lot of people like that in positions, you know, literally working against some of trump's own instincts. he named that as something he was frustrated by and does not want the second time around. and, if you look at the spectrum of possibilities, too, it includes obviously that u.s. withdrawal its support for the collective offense of nato. it gives the u.s. presence in europe. what we -- we talked about there scenario as far back as 2014 and 2015 in the barack obama years what to do if there is a special forces operation into a baltic state where some kind of emergence that russia might support. one of the things the leaders told us they wanted was more u.s. presence and more nato presence. we began the baltic air

mission, beefed up presence of americans in poland, that presence of american forces is a deterrent. he is not just challenging words on a paper but he is talking about countries where there are americans on the ground or other european nato forces on the ground. that raises the stakes for him. i think the question here is if trump withdrawals political support for nato or pulls back u.s. military presence on the european continent. will that prompt putin to test further if nato essentially falls apart. if he is pressing into these kind of gray spaces in the baltics. certainly nato can not come to defense in places like georgia where pro-russian forces are seeking to turn georgia into more of a satellite state to russia. so, there is a lot to be focused on and concerned about as this plays out. >> and then you have tulsi

gabbard and j.d. vance public skeptics of sort of holding a strong line against putin. very, very close to a lot of the rhetoric coming out of the kremlin. what do you think russia sees in some of the people surrounding an in-coming trump 2.0? >> reporter: well, they see some people, you mentioned tulsi gabbard who subscribe to their worldview. the u.s. is complicate or responsible for everything from the war in ukraine to instability in the middle east. and, that is the person who literally will be preparing the presidential daily briefing for the president of the united states. now, the problem with that worldview is, it will be met with reality in about a month. not like the u.s. is the reason that putin is in ukraine right now. he is in there for his own reasons. he will not stop being putin

because somebody like tulsi gabbard is there. it is good to have someone that is shaping or reaching the president of the united states but what it will not change is putin has his own designs on the russian dominance if not out and out russian control over a number of former republics and there is a russian objective clearly to challenge nato and undermined european security and stability. there are pro russian forces getting more powerful. they, too, will feel with wind at the sails. >> thank you very much for that reporting. shifting gears for us the future of reproductive rights in america. we will bring you that story, next america. we will bring you that story, next

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ed martin. the life begins at conception to be chief of staff of the office of management and budget. the agency entrusted with implementing trump's 2025 agenda. his user so extreme you should hear them for yourself. >> i certainly think that you're going to find a lot of people that step away from jail time. because they are going to say well, there is -- but if you believe it's a baby, i do, then you have to do something to protect the baby. the late phyllis schlafly used to say if you get to claim and frame the argument you almost certainly get to win. in other words you take their framing, woman's right, are you going to put women in jail? it is a about a baby, what do you do. frame the argument, own the argument. >> an exception to abortion laws in cases where the mother's life is at risk. i'm entirely opposed to this language. no abortion is performed ever

to save the life of a mother, none, 0, zilch. >> let that sink in. no exceptions for the life of the mother. if you manage to get one to save your life, he had his way, they might put you in prison. it should not be surprising that anti-abortion state leaders see an opening to intensify the persecution of women and doctors. on friday, texas attorney general announced he would be suing new york doctor for providing abortion bills to a woman living in texas. president of reproductive freedom of all. mini? your thoughts. >> reporter: i mean -- this is project 2025 come to life, nicolle. this serving we warned about and screamed about that just under half of the country recognized, right? these guys are the extremist architects of some of the most

cruel, cruel policies in this country. you know, ed martin did not just say the quiet part out loud he is a right wing talk radio host. he gleefully proclaimed it outloud. if anyone thought for five seconds that trump was going to moderate his tune, they were mistaken. the thing that our exit polling and our work that we are seeing in the field post- election is not all americans understood or still understand that trump administration and appointees are radical on abortion, he says he wants to lead it to the states what we have to do is educate the american people about ed martin and other that are problematic but explain to them why the office of management and budget has anything to do with abortion and why this is so dangerous. it is not obvious on its face. >> let's hear more, this is a rape victim who is 10 years

old.. >> the true bane of the pro- life movement is the faction of fake pro-lifers who claim to believe in sanctity of human life with a list of exceptions. this horrendous story in ohio where a 10-year-old child was raped. this 10-year-old is why abortion was necessary. i have suffer said over and over again -- i have said over and over again the example that should not be the rule, right? you can't let the exceptions be the rule. i refuse to do it. i refuse. >> his refusal to get engaged in the debate does not save the 10-year-old rape victim what happens to them in donald trump's america? >> reporter: nothing. they get to live out their misery. the consequences that they believe a 10-year-old rape victim should face. critical difference between a

trump administration as we are seeing it out and biden/harris that we are seeing coming to an end is biden/harris was willing to use every tool in their tool box. every arm of the federal government from d.o.j. to hhs to more to advance reproductive freedom and intervene when states were overreaching. like the case in idaho, the supreme court, or when their own authority like the fda challenged on medication. we will not just see absence from federal government but trained activist embedded trying to push an agenda using every tool they can find including comstock. >> mini we will need you during this. another break for us, we'll be right back. g this. another break for us, we'll be right back. you see why we ned downy free and gentle with no perfumes or dyes. it not only makes your clothes softer, it is gentle on your skin. it breathes life into your laundry.

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. thank you very much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. "the beat" up next. >> welcome to "the beat." i am in for ari melber. we are going to