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bader used to have an affinity for opera and graced the opera stage. there's a lot going on tonight. just in the last hour we learned that judge marchand has decided not to throw out the trump case. the stain of mr. trump's criminal conviction. we're going to talk about that in just a few minutes and we're also going to talk to john kirby about those mysterious drone sightings. i know you have questions. so stick and for that as well. i want to start with a quote that has been ringing in my head. it's from the a book about bob woodward wrote about donald trump. it comes from back in 2016.

when trump was still a candidate for president that time around. here it is. real power is, and i don't even want to use the word, fear. bob woodward was sitting at this very table with me a few weeks ago and he talked about that quote. >> my first book of trump was called fear. because that's exactly what he does. he knows that's what the real power is. to scare people. to frighten people. and that's exactly what we see playing out today. having written three books on trump, spent hours with him, the goal is to give him all the say. all the power. real power is fear. >> real power is fear. now that is how donald trump always has seen the world and that is such an important part

of understanding the moment that we find ourselves in. in fact, it may be the most important part of understanding the moment we find ourselves in. we spend a lot of time on this show talking about what donald trump might actually do with the power of the presidency. we talk about all the ways in which the threats might turn into action. and what that action would mean for the country. and we should talk about it and we will continue to. but we also need to talk about the impact that fear is having right now. and what that tells us about the impact fear could have in the future. and now, we're seeing the impact of fear on capitol hill. i mean after senator hearnst issued a lukewarm statement about trump's nominee for secretary of defense, pete hegseth went into overdrive. i mean completely after she issued that statement. and elon musk backed superpack

pushed iowans to support hegseth. a local iowa radio show said on his show, if a king wants a different senator from iowa, we'll have one. if he doesn't, we won't. i think someone has got to be made an example of out of whether it's jonie or someone else. guess what happened. well, all of that pressure kind of seemed to work. a few days after her lukewarm statement, senator hearns met with hegsetl -- hegseth again and changed her tune. before the confirmation hearings have even kick ed off and won't until january.

the senator brave enough to pull back her concerns and obey the wishes of maga world in advance. today trump made very clear there's more where that came from. when asked the senator who opposed his nominee should be primaried this is what he had to say. >> if they're unreasonable, i will announce something that you'll be shocked to hear. if they're unreasonable. if they're opposing somebody for political reasons or stupid reasons, i would say has nothing to do with me. i would say they probably would be primary. >> so, you're obviously seeing the impact of fear on capitol hill and given it seemed to work, it's probably not going to let up any time soon. and we're also seeing the impact of fear on the media right now. i mean other the weekend the new york times reported on a flurry of threat and defamation lawsuits planned by the

incoming administration. all aimed at intimidating outlets and anyone who has questioned trump to run the pentagon and fbi. it's not really a mystery as to why more of these lawsuits are planned when you take a look at the other news from this weekend. abc agreed to pay $15 million to settle a defamation lawsuit brought by trump and his team. and that lawsuit stemmed from comments made about the lawsuit against trump. we don't really know all the reasons why they agreed to settle. it's a case though that several legal experts have said was worth more of a fight. but now it's over. and i mean if you're trump and his team, what does that teach you? it teaches you that tactics like these can work. and that you should keep at

them. i mean as if on cue, trump threatened a whole lot more at the press conference earlier today. >> i do, i do. i think you have to do it. because they are very dishonest. we need a great media. we need a fair media. i'm going to be bringing one against the people in iowa, their newspaper which had a very, very good pollster who got me right all the time. and then just before the election, she said i was going to lose by three or four points. we'll probably be filing a major lawsuit against them today or tomorrow. we're involved in one which has been going on for a while and very successfully against bob woodward where he didn't quote me properly. i feel i have to do this. i shouldn't really be the one to do it. it should have been justice department or somebody else. but i have to do it. it costs a lot of money to do it but, we have to straighten out the press. our press is very corrupt.

>> i know each of these things might not seem like a huge deal on their own. our republican senator came around to being merciful about the parties nominee. a media company settled with trump. neither is necessarily blaring front page news, i'm not here to freak you out about things you shouldn't be freaked out about. but taken together, along with trump publicly threatening to do more, creates a bit of a pattern that's important to follow and watch and it goes like this. trump and his team decide they don't like something. they employ threats and pressure and intimidation to change the thing they don't like and it works. that means they're incentivize to do it again. i don't say this to risk of losing political power or the threat of safety and security of many public officials they face. that is all very real and justified and quite of it quite scary. it's important to remember that what this pattern could lead to is a country where journalists don't feel comfortable speaking

truth to power. or elected officials don't hold people accountable. this pattern leads to a slippery slope. to the role of the free press to a society that's simply too afraid to speak out. that's the impact of obedience in advance. starting us off tonight. murphy of connecticut, he sits on the foreign relation and oversight committee. senator it's great to see you. i just spelled out this culture of fear. and the impact that seems to already be settling in even before donald trump's second term starts. i wonder as you watched maga world what they did to senator hearnst and her own dialing back of her concerns of pete hegseth. what level of concern do you have about that? >> i mine, i think this is a red alert moment. i know we all want to be a

little careful about not setting the conversation on fire even before trump has been sworn in. but i think the narrative that you just layed out is really, really important. they are not just two things in this world. democracies and dictatorships. there are all sorts of countries in this world that occupy a gray zone. in between a democracy where you regularly have different political parties and different leaders changing power. exchanging power. and dictatorships where only one person, one party is in control. there's lots of places that still have elections but the opposition is muted. is too weak to ever win. so people get to vote but the same people hold on to power decade after decade. the way that happens is pretty routine. the press stops telling the true story. people are punished for

organizing political opposition. and all of that seems to be a priority for donald trump when he takes the white house. and you see it already happening. elon musk because he's got lots of political interest has already essentially folded his operation into the white house. your parent company has decided that owns msnbc has decided to sell msnbc likely because it doesn't want to run a foul of donald trump. jeff bezos instructed his company not to make political picks because his company is half buttered by government contracts. you're already starting to see people starting to cowher. starting to set aside. when people can't tell stories of people in power what that does is rob agency from voters.

i hope that doesn't happen because we're in for a very difficult and dangerous assault for the freedom of press. >> let me ask you a lot of time about that. because i've spent a lot of time overseas and you have spent a lot of country over seas. there's a complete repression of the free press. russia, china, some eastern european countries. talk to our viewers a little bit about how that happens and what you see the impact is in these countries and accountability for the leaders. >> well in russia and china there is zero space for political decent as we've seen over and over again. everybody opposes putin. but there's other countries where there's some but limited

space for political decent. take up country like hungary or a country like serbia. these are democracies, there are elections but it is virtually impossible for the political opposition to win because the press is either owned by the regime or when the press is not owned by the regime it is intimidated to the oppression. and they will be harassed by the regime. so there are elections but the political opposition very rarely ever wins that could be where the united states ends up if all of a sudden the press starts telling the real story. so there's no accountability for donald trump and there are just enough political harassment and law enforcement harassment of democrats as

trump is suggesting or pollsters who are seminating results that are good for democrats you all of a sudden can see something that looks a little bit more like hungary or serbia here in the united states. >> you are one of the most thoughtful people on addressing gun violence. we saw saw actually a couple of shootings. today in wisconsin at a school. and yesterday was the anniversary of sandy hook which i know is close to your heart. i'm a parent, you're a parent. how do you process moments like this and how should people who feel powerless process moments like these? >> well, this is obviously a heavy time of the year those parents in sandy hook have to relive that nightmare every december. but every time they turn on the news and see another school

shooting as we saw today. i think it is important to remember that we have power. and you're right, a lot of states have tightened their laws. but two years ago, we actually changed the federal laws. we made five major changes to gun laws. we put a lot of new resources into mental health programming into community anti gun violence initiatives that was the bipartisan act. since we passed that act. murder rates in our city are down by 20%. school shootings, excuse me mass shootings in in country are down by over 20%. none of us should rest until not a single child here in school or walking to school. but there are literally thousands of kids and young adults who are alive today because we did build a movement. a movement to stop gun violence that successfully changed the law at the federal level. so, these are moments of great sadness when we get to the middle of december in sandy hook. but there are moments that we

have to remember we have power and when we exercise that power do and have over the last two years save lives. >> i really want to talk to you about the health care industry. they're telling me that i have to go to a break. but i hope you come back and we can talk more about that. because as long as i've known you you've been talking about the health care industry and you're very thoughtful on the topic. thank you so much for joining me. i appreciate it. news from new york where judge marchand has denied the request from trump. request from trump.

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earlier we had breaking news where a judge denied donald trump's request to toss out his guilty verdict. but judge marchand disagreed saying in part the people's news of these acts is evidence of the decidedly personal acts of falsifying business records poses no danger of intrusion on the authority or function of the executive branch. i've been wanting to talk to people about what this all means and i have the perfect people joining me right now. former prosecutor swellwell and anthony coney. i read this as the justice system working. that's basically meaning trump is not exactly off the hook. how did you read it? help people digest what the ruling means. >> not everybody is going to

roll over for him. that's what most people are doing right now. trying to create favor with the president. and the american people are saying what do i get out of that. and what you're seeing from this ruling is what you get out of it is donald trump is still going to be treated the way anybody else would be treated. i also have my own civil case with january 6 police officers against donald trump for what he did on january 6th and we're actually moving down the track. we won at the district court level. we won unanimously at the court of appeals. so we're in deposition right now. we may be the only tree standing on the forest but we're still seeking accountability. i think it's important for people to know that's still happening. >> it's so interesting that's such a good example. i'm so glad you shared that. anthony, you're like the forest gump of communicators in government. part of one of your past jobs was to help explain legal issues to the public. what should people understand who are not lawyers or not

former prosecutors about this ruling. >> the congressman said it right. not everyone will roll over. but the ones who will they matter. those are conservatives on the u.s. supreme court. cannot have every expectation that eventually this case will make its way to the supreme court and conservatives there are going overrule it. because the supreme court is fundamentally broken. think of the fact that there are people there who don't belong right now. gorsuch. there's two cases where some of the justices should be recused. the interest is on policy. if you rewind the tape. if you go back to the 1980s, the republican edwin meast put together a blueprint on how conservatives could use the court to enact a policy agenda.

now that we have conservatives on the supreme court and the majority we have conservatives controlling both houses of congress, and a nominal conservative in the white house they are not going to let donald trump be the only president to identitity of having a criminal conviction. >> as a former prosecutor do you think this goes to the supreme court. there are a bunch of other cases that everybody has kind of assumed will never see the light of day again. the georgia case, obviously jack smith made his announcement. does the ruling today change any of that or change your perception of that. >> i agree with anthony. he's going to take it up to the supreme court. he's hell bent on this idea he's king. but the people i grew up with they don't want to get involved with this red team, blue team. conservative court or liberal court. they just want to know did you run for president for the right reason. did you run to help me and the cost of what i'm paying at the

grocery store or is this just about making all of your criminal cases go away including your rich friends that are in power. if that's where he's going to put his focus, i think he's going to find that he's going to lose the american people really quick. >> he's the first person to run as a convicted felon. he will be the first convicted person to run for president. if democrats are running for office they're off the elections this year, there's midterms. do you talk about this. >> the convicted felon part you mean. >> yeah, people standing by a convicted felon. >> i think elected officials need to focus on what matters to people's lives. i am looking to do that, the

find common ground. every nominee is not crazy. like trying to find the right word. like marco rubio is not going to embarrass the country on the world stage. steven beseth the secretary of treasury nominee. the former governor of north dakota. these are people who democrats should take a hard look at and if they're qualified and they're not going embarrass them. democrats should find the opportunity to support them. >> if he's looking at someone to work with on invasion, he's going to finds the best partner in me. and if he is going to take the opposite take, then he's going find a wall. >> i appreciate you joining us. >> we're going to talk about the drones. everybody has questions and theories. donald trump even weighed in

today. lawmakers are demanding more answers. john kirby is coming up next. ah, you found me. you found me. there he is. but wherever i go it's always “where's waldo?” are you wally? yeah. yeah i am. never “who's waldo?” sometimes it takes someone who really knows you to make you feel seen. gifts that say i get you. etsy has it. as americans, there's one thing we can all agree on. the promise of our constitution and the hope that liberty and justice is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+

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okay let's talk about those drones. as you almost definitely know by now there have been reports of mysterious drones hovering in the night skies above new jersey for the past month. most recently there's been sighting in connecticut, maryland and delaware.

federal officials have tried to ensure the public there's no cause for alarm as the drones don't appear to be aligned with any foreign entity or have malicious intent. at least some of these flying objects have been found to be legally owned drones. so no need to panic. but today trump said that the government knows what they are and isn't wanting to telling us. >> the government knows what happens. our military knows where they took off from. if it's a garage they can go right into that garage. they know where it came from and where it went. and for some reason they don't want to comment. and i think they would be better off saying what it is. our military knows and our president knows. and for some reason they want to keep people in suspense. >> and joining me now is white

house national security communications advisor john kirby. it's great to see you, thank you for taking the time. >> you bet. >> you know, we just played that clip president-elect donald trump suggesting that the government is trying to keep people in suspense . you did an entire briefing today, an audio briefing. so share with our viewers what they should know about the drone situation. >> well, we're working on this very, very hard, jen. what i briefed today was that we have made an initial assessment based on the information we're getting. these drones are not just commercial and civilian aircrafts but drones of a commercial law enforcement or hobbiest state. we continue to see no evidence of criminal activity. nothing that is illegal or anything that points to

nefarious. we've done like 5,000 sightings have been worked through. the fbi has boiled that down to about 100 that we still have to triangulate we still have to work. it's an ongoing effort. we can't rule where that's going to take us in the future. but we have tried very hard since last week to be as open and transparent about what we know and don't know. now frankly a few days later we know a little bit more. our assessment to date is these are legal and lawful drones and other aircraft. >> so i want to make sure i get this right. you said this in your briefing earlier too, there's some 5,000 drone sightings. some of them are stars. some are completely legal. drones, or aircraft even about 100 of which need to be followed up on. are 100 open cases or have some been resolved. >> from my understanding is there's still about 100 they still have to work their way through. if you get, 12 people seeing the same aircraft, they'll call it in. that's 12 sightings even though

it's one aircraft. so in many cases that 5,000 was quickly dwindled down when you start to triangulate who's seeing what in what location and you may be able to determine it's a single aircraft. even a star here or there has been call -ld called in as a sighting. so there's about 100 that we still need to triangulate. we'll work with them very closely state and local authorities to see if we can corroborate the information. >> there are more than 1 million drones legally documented with the government. i think what is concerning is that there's so many around new jersey. what can you say about that. >> we're still working our way through that but i think it was important to remind people about the sheer size and scale and scope of drone activity in

the united states over the skies of cities all over the country. and again, the vast majority of this is all legal. it's all lawful. in fact, it's very much good for the common good. a lot of these are law enforcement drones or commercial drones that are working on delivery of goods and services. i don't know why people, why it's all of a sudden an issue in new jersey. again we're still working our way through that. but again, everything points to lawful and legal activity, no threat to the public safety. no threat to our national security. at least represented by what we're seeing right now. >> given, you're somebody who's followed this information or information traveling quickly online. hard to control at times. you guys have said no foreign entity. no threats. you've given some more specifics. why do you think people are so concerned. how do you explain this at this point in time. entirely valid to see drones coming out of the ocean or a high concentration. but how do you explain the

level of concern out there? >> i think it's a legitimate concern, jen. you look up in the night sky and of course it's darker longer now. and the skies have been pretty clear at least of late. you look up there and see this activity. i'm sure a lot of it is drones and drones don't behave like what we're used to seeing aircraft behave. one flight path, sort of in a constant speed. usually there's a unique sound whether there's a propeller or jet. drones don't operate like that. they can hover, go fast, go slow. that's something new in the skies for many many people and they're starting to see this and reporting it. i want to stress. we want people to keep calling them in. as you see them, let us know. there's a tip line. we're taking this very serious. we understand there's concern and quite frankly there's a lot of curiosity about these things. we want to get to the bottom of it the same as everybody. our assessment right now to date given all the work we've done in the last week or so

tells us, that these are legal and lawful aircraft activity. >> john kirby, thank you for coming out. thank you for joining us. i know people have lots of questions out there. you always help provide a lot of clarity to hard confusing difficult questions. thank you very much. >> thank you, jen. good to be with you. coming up, rfk jr. heads to capitol hill and donald trump reminds us that they don't even need to revoke vaccines to do real damage. i'll explain after a quick break. a rattler. fedex presents tall tales of true deliveries there we were, driver versus reptile. our battle was legendary. (♪♪) wait a second. you don't own a pet snake, do you? phew maybe now my friends will believe me. if this is what we did for one delivery, see what we can do for your business. fedex.

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>> so today donald trump's nominee to lead the department of human health and services, robert f. kennedy jr., you've heard of his nomination. kennedy has been for the last decades a anti vaccine. but he has told the public he had never denied the vaccines he said that he meant there were no 100% vaccine. trump tweeted healthy young

child gets pumped up doesn't feel good and chases. autism, many such cases. now trump actually met with rfk jr. in 2017 just before he was sworn into his first term. this flirtation with the anti vax movement back then at least was short lived. rfk jr. told the guardian that trump's team lad had cut off all communication. saying the trump administration decided to go in another direction. and history shows that he did. one of the undeniable achievement was implement the warp speed. and yet, during the roll out of those life saving vaccines, anti vax sentiment drew thanks in part to people like rfk jr. who continued to sew doubt about their safety. and suddenly, trump had to

decide between touting a accomplishment and not angering his base. >> it was three days less, three days less than nine months and it's great. and you know what, i believe totally in your freedoms. i do. you're free, you have to do what you have to do. but i recommend, take the vaccines. i did it. it's good. take the vaccines. but you got now, that's okay. that's all right. you have your freedoms. >> well, we all know the impact of those boos. we know the way trump went. we know he would rather distance himself from hiss own legacy of sorts on the covid vaccine than risk the anger of his base. now this time around, he openly campaigned on with holding funds from schools with vaccine mandate. he appointed to go wild. and he said something is wrong and kennedy will look into it.

so maybe this is all due to trump's own proclivity to conspiracy. maybe it's the people serving as guardrails in this first administration aren't there. maybe it's a shift in opinion among republicans. in 2019 only 20% of republicans believed the parents should be able to decide not to vaccinate their children everyone if they might create health risk for others. in 2023, three years later that jumped to 42%. say what you want about trump, but he knows how to read a poll. so look, you don't know if kennedy will be confirmed or even if the new trump administration certain vaccines but even if they don't. the damage is already starting to be done because trump is already rooting confidence in vaccines at any critical time. he's making a political gamble that could very welcome at your expense now coming up my friend john forrough is talking about conversations the white house

needs to have in order to win again. we'll be back.

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as the democratic party grapples what went wrong, there's nobody short of ideas. today tim ryan suggested dc should move its headquarters to

youngstown, ohio. new york state senator who is a candidate for dc chair pledged to reassess the chairs. and david hogg who announced his run this morning. to the extent there's some common thread through all of those proposals and many others it's the idea that more of the same just won't cut it. my next guest certainly agrees. in his latest piece in the atlantic, he writes, 2024 should be a clear moment for us who have been trying to keep donald trump in power. many believed they were not going to be under republican rule. and joining me now jon favreau. a lot of people in here are

going to anger people and may have already which is okay. but i wanted to ask you about a couple of them. one of the points you make in here is it would be very easy for democrats to kind of soothe themselves essentially into believing that in 2028 people will want change again. and we'll win back power. and democrats will win back power. just to convince themselves that, the loss wasn't so big. it's been narrower than it was initially reported and not make any changes. that's a big part of it. i want you to talk about that a little bit more and why that is not the only approach. >> sure, thanks for having me on. we have a math problem, we have been steadily losing working class voters now for the last several decades but it really accelerated after 2016. and at first it was mostly white working class voters. voters without a college education.

and then, trump started peeling away latino voters working class voters without a college education. and in his last election, asian- american voters and some black men as well. younger voters without a college degree. everyone among gen-z it was if you don't have a college degree you're likely to vote for trump and if you did you're likely to vote for harris. not only is it going to be tough to win the presidency with a purely college educated base of voters. but it's going to be impossible to get 51 seats in the senate because you're going to need to pick off states like north carolina, and ohio, and iowa and states that we just haven't won in a long time now. the way that the math is, the only way to win these states and to get back to power again is to win back voters without a college education. at least some portion of voters without a college degree who have left the party in recent years. >> i think that's the core question. many people wondering how do we

do that. and both of us have worked for obama for years. nobody is suggesting it's a prefice. even if they weren't for him he made it clear he was for them. the other piece that this reminded me of is obama wasn't afraid to anger groups. he had a serious, he would kind of, people off on a regular basis that's something that the party has gotten away from a little bit. while it's not a replication of obama, what are the other lessons you think given he won two terms by pretty sizable margins. >> yeah, well the reason i brought up our former boss is because he started as an organizer. community organizers, i have

found when i am debating with people. discussing politics with people. when you had a background as an organizer whether you're politics are to the left of me or right of me i always find the conversation is more productive. because organizers are trained to persuade. i think the fundamental task of democrats right now. i think it's the job of the official party, politicians, but also you know a lot of voters they get their impression of politics now from sort of a random assortment of algorithm takes. if you're posting a lot, if you're a volunteer, a democrat who cares or influencer you have a role in this too. i think when we are, when we are online we encounter people with broadly cohesive political identitities.. we know what a leftist things, we know what a maga republican thinks, we know what a never

trumper thinks. but most don't fall into one category. most are really weird, sometimes they're super liberal on some issues, super conservative on others. that doesn't mean they're centrist or mod moderist. that frustrates us sometimes but that's the reality of how most voters are in america. and the key there, the good news is a lot of them are persuadable. what it requires is to meet people where they are, and then not leave them there. right. bringing them along. trying to empathize with them. it's not about being nicer, it's about trying to meet them where they are. not scold them, not because you're trying to be nice but it's a good political strategy to try to bring somebody over to your side. we've come to think that's impossible because most of the

people we see in politics all believe what they believe and they're partisans one way or another. but most people aren't like that. as democrats think about what's next. the way we talk about politics has to be more open to people who may not agree with us about everything but are willing to vote for us. if they just hear more from us, have a conversation and let us, have a real conversation with people and listen to people. >> okay we don't have a ton of time left. but i did love what you said in there when you said, we political obsessives, you and i and perhaps everybody watching right now who's going to listen to pod save america tomorrow may be in this category. have made coverage inaccessible and exhausting. so, get and everybody out there who wants to expand the base of people who are listening, what should they be doing? >> i think it's just keeping in mind that when you are talking to friends about politics,

whether you're talking to strangers online about politics. that like we have to make politics accessible for people. we can't you know crank up the outrage to 11 every single time even though we may feel trump gives a lot of things to be outraged about all the time. it can be exhausting, it can also feel like scoldy and shamy. it might feel good to be right but it's not about being right. it's about winning the power right. with the click of a pen, you can get a new volkswagen at the sign then drive event. lease a 2024 tiguan

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♪♪ okay. that does it for me tonight. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. hey, rachel. >> nice to run into you in washington. >> you, too. and to see susan. we love her. >> susan -- any time you see susan anywhere like 28 to