pretty stressful monday night. for now, i am signing off but i wish you a good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late. we will see you again tomorrow. okay. there's a lot going on tonight. just in the last hour, we learned judge merchan denied trump's pick to throw out his conviction in new york because of the supreme court's immunity ruling. as "the new york times" writes, the judge's ruling, at least for now, the state of trumps criminal conviction. we will talk about that in a few minutes and i will talk to white house spokesperson john kirby about those mysterious drone sightings. i know you have questions and we will try to get answers. i want to start with one

quote that has been ringing around in my head all weekend from the very first pages of a book bob woodward and robert costa wrote about trump. it comes from back in march 2016 when trump was still a candidate for president that time around. here it is. real power is, and i don't even want to use the word, fear. a few weeks ago bob woodward was sitting here with me and he talked about that quote. >> my first book on trump was, of course, called fear. because that is exactly what he does. he knows that is what the real power is to scare people. to frighten people. that is exactly what we see playing out today. having written three books on trump and spent hours with him, the goal is to give him all the say, all the power. real power is fear.

>> real power is fear. that is how donald trump has seen the world. that is such an important part of understanding them, we find ourselves in. it may be the most important part of understanding the moment we find ourselves in. we spend our time on the show talking about what trump might do with the power of the presidency. we talk about the ways the threats might turn into action and with that action could mean for the country. we should talk about it and we will continue to, but we need to talk about the impact that fear is having now. what it tells about the impact fear can have in the future. right now, we see it on capitol hill. after senator joni ernst issued what could be best characterized as a lukewarm statement about the nominee for secretary of defense, pete hegseth, the maga fear mongering machine, went into overdrive.

completely after she issue that statement. elon musk super pac rad, pushing iowans to tell her senator to support hegseth. maga firebrands threatened to recruit a primary challenger against her at the end of her term. a local iowa radio host said last week, quote, if the king wants a different senator from iowa, we will have one. if he doesn't, we won't. i think someone has to be made an example of out of whether it's joni ernst or someone else. guess what happened? well, all that pressure seemed to work. a few days after her lukewarm statement, senator ernst met with hegseth again and changed her term -- tune. she issued a new statement that was far more supportive. basically, but for the confirmation hearings have even

kicked off and they won't until january, the one republican senator who was brave enough to express even a hint of concern about a nominee who is quite concerning, and we talked about him a lot. was met with intimidation and threats. which prompted her to pull back her concerns and obey the wishes of maga world in advance. today, trump made very clear there is more where that came from. when asked of senators who pose his nominations should be primary, this is what he had to say. >> if they are unreasonable, i give a different answer, and answer you will be shocked to hear. if they are unreasonable and opposing somebody for political reasons or stupid reasons, i would say has nothing to do with me. i say they would be primary to. >> so, we are seeing the impact of fear on capitol hill and given it seemed to work, it's probably not going to let up anytime soon.

we are seeing the impact of fear on the media right now. over the weekend, "the new york times" reported on threatened defamation lawsuit plan by the incoming administration. aimed at intimidating news outlets and those who criticized her question the -- when you take a look at the other news from this weekend. a, b, c agreed to pay $50 million to settle a defamation lawsuit by trump and his team and that stemmed from comments aimed at george stephanopoulos made in an interview earlier this year. he said trump had been found liable for rape when trump had been found liable for sexually abuse. abc news spokesperson said in a statement about the settlement, we are pleased the parties have entered reached an agreement to dismiss the lawsuit on the terms. we don't of the reasons why they agreed to settle. it is a case that several legal experts have said was worth more

of a fight. but, now it's over. if you are trump and his team, what does that teach you? it teaches that tactics like this can work, and you should keep at them. as if on cue, trump threatened more of the same press conference earlier today. >> i do. i do. i think you have to do it. they are very dishonest. we need a great media. we need a fair media. i will bring in one against the people in iowa, their newspaper, which had a very good pollster who got me right all the time and then just before the election, she said i would lose by three-year four points we will probably file a major lawsuit against them. we are involved in one that has been going on for a while and successfully against bob woodward where he did not quote me properly. i feel i have to do this. i shouldn't be the one to do it.

it should've been done by the justice department or somebody else. i have to do it. of course, a lot of money to do it. we have to straighten out the press. our press is very corrupt. >> i know each of these things might not seem like a huge deal on their own. republican senator came around to being -- the party nominee and a media company settled with trump. neither is necessarily blaring front-page news. i'm not here to freak you out about things you should not be freaked out about. taken together along with trump threatening to do more creates a pattern that is important to follow and watch. it goes like this. trump and his team decide they don't like something. they employ threats and pressure and intimidation to change it. it works. that means they are incentivized to do it again. i don't say this to minimize the fear of litigation or the risk of losing political power or the threat to the safety and security of many public

officials they face. that's very real and justified in some is quite scary. it's important to remember with this pattern could lead to is a country where journalists don't feel comfortable speaking truth to power. where elected officials don't hold people accountable. this is a slippery slope that leads to serious threats to free speech, to the free press and the role of the free press. a society that's too afraid to speak out. that is the impact of obedience in advance. starting us office democratic senator chris murphy. he sits on the foreign relations and oversight committee. it's great to see you. i wanted to start with where i ended. i spelled out this culture of fear, and the impact this seems already be settling in even before his second term starts. as you watch maga world and what they did to senator ernst and her dialing back of her concerns about pete hegseth, what level of concern you have

about that? >> i mean, i think it's a red alert moment. i know we all want to be a little careful about not sort of setting the conversation on fire even before trump has been sworn in. the narrative you just laid out is really really important. they are not just two things in the world. democracies and dictatorships. there are countries in this world that occupy a gray zone in between a democracy where you regularly have different political parties and different leaders changing power. exchanging power. dictatorships were only one person, one party, is in control. there are lots of places that still have elections, but the opposition is muted. it's too weak to ever win. people get to vote but the same people hold onto power decade after decade. the way that happens is pretty

routine. the press stops telling the true story. people are punished for organizing political opposition. all of that seems to be a priority for donald trump when he takes the white house and you see it's already happening. elon musk because he is lots of political interests is already folded his operation into the white house. your parent company decided to sell msnbc likely because it doesn't want to run afoul of donald trump. jeff bezos instructed his papers not to make endorsements because his bread is buttered by government contracts donald trump will be in charge of. you are already seeing people of power in the country, people who own the information highways, starting to cower, step aside. when a true real story cannot be told about people in power, what that does is rob agency

from voters and from the political opposition. i hope that does not happen starting on january 20, but i think you are right to layout the real possibility that we are in for a difficult and dangerous assault on the free press and open democracy. >> let me ask another question about that. i spent a lot of time overseas and you have spent a lot of times overseas and there are examples of other countries, when you travel to other countries, and a complete repression of the free press. russia, china, some eastern european countries. talk to the viewers about how that happens and what you see the impact is in these countries in terms of accountability for the leaders. >> in russia and china, there

is zero space for political dissent as we've seen over and over again. anybody that publicly opposes vladimir putin will be killed. other countries in which there is some but limited space for political dissent. take a country like hungary or serbia. these are technically democracies. there are elections, but it's virtually impossible for the political opposition to win because the press is either owned by the regime or when it's not owned by the regime is intimidated into submission. it is hard to recruit people to join your political opposition group because they will be targeted and harassed, often at the regime. there are elections but the political opposition very rarely ever wins in the it could be where the u.s. ends up. if the press stops telling the real story so there's no accountability for trump and

justin of political harassment and law-enforcement harassment of democrats as trump is suggesting or pollsters who are disseminating results that are good for democrats, all of a sudden you could see something that looks more like hungary or serbia in the united states. >> there are so many things i want to ask but you are one of the most awful people on addressing gun violence. we saw a couple of shootings today. one that got a lot of attention, for good reason, in wisconsin at a school and yesterday was the anniversary of sandy hook which is close to your heart. i am a parent. you are a parent and there's been progress at the state level, the how do you process moments like this? how should people who feel powerless process moments like this? >> it's a heavy time of the

year. those parents in sandy hook have to relive that nightmare every december. every time they turn on the news and see another school shooting, as we saw today. i think it's important to remember we have power. you are right, a lot of states have tightened their laws, but two years ago we changed the federal laws. we made five major changes to gun laws. we put new resources into mental health programming and anti-gun violence initiatives, bipartisan safer communities act. since we passed that at, murder rates in the cities are down by 20%. school shootings, excuse me, mass shootings are down by over 20%. none of us should rest until not a single child fears for their life in school or walking to school. there are thousands of kids and young adults alive because we did build a movement, a movement

to stop gun violence that successfully changed the law at the federal level. these are moments of great sadness when we get to the middle of december in sandy hook and across the country but they are moments remember we have power and when we exercise that power, we have saved lives. >> senator murphy, i want to talk about the health care industry. they tell me i have to go to a break but i hope you will come back another time when we could talk about that. as long as i have known you, you've been talking about the health care industry. thank you for joining me. i appreciate it. breaking news out of new york where judge merchan rejected trumps efforts to dismiss his criminal conviction on the basis of presidential immunity. it just happened a few hours ago. congressman eric swalwell and anthony are the perfect people to talk to and they will join me. join me.

earlier this evening we had

breaking news out of new york where a judge has rejected trumps motion to vacate his criminal conviction on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records to cover up an alleged affair. trumps legal team argued's guilty verdict should be tossed out in light of the supreme court's ruling on immunity claiming testimony from former white house employees should not have been entered into evidence. judge merchan overseas the case disagreed saying in part, the people's use of these acts as evidence of the decidedly personal acts of falsifying business records poses no danger of intrusion on the authority and function of the executive branch. i have been wanting to talk about what this means and i have the perfect people joining me now. democratic congressman and former prosecutor eric swalwell and anthony coley. i read this as the justice system at the state level working. this meaning that trump is not exactly off the hook. how did you read it?

how should people digest what this means? >> not everyone will rollover for him as we are seeing right now is the billionaire class is doing that, trying to curry favor with the new president. americans are asking, what do i get out of that? what they are seeing with this ruling is what you get out of it as trump will still be treated the way anyone else would be treated. i have my own civil case with january 6 police officers against trump for what he did on january 6, and we are moving down the track. we won on immunity and won't go with the court of appeals. he appealed to the supreme court and then withdrew that. we are in depositions right now so we may be one of the only trees standing on the forest but we are seeking accountability. it's important for people to know that still happening. >> that's a good example and i'm glad you shared there. anthony, you are like the

forrest gump of communicators in government. one of your past jobs was to help explain legal issues to the public. what should people understand who are not lawyers or former prosecutors about this ruling ? >> the congressman said it right. not everyone will rollover but the ones who will, they matter. those are conservatives on the u.s. supreme court. every expectation that eventually this case will make its way to the supreme court and conservatives there will overrule there. i say that because the supreme court is broken. i think there people there who do not belong right now. neal gorsuch. there are at least two justices who are considering cases where they should be recused and collectively the conservatives are ignoring decades and decades of precedent like overturning things like roe v. wade. to enact a policy agenda. the emphasis is on policy because, if you rewind the tape, go back to the 1980s, the

conservative republican attorney general together a blueprint of how conservatives could use the court to enact a policy agenda. now, we have conservatives on the u.s. supreme court and the majority, conservatives control in both houses of congress, and a nominal conservative in the white house, they are not going to let donald trump be the only president to -- the indignity of having a criminal conviction. >> do you think this goes to the supreme court? let me as the second part. there are other cases everybody has assumed will never see the light of day again. the georgia case. jack smith made his announcement. does the ruling today change that or change your perception ? >> i agree with anthony. he will take it to the supreme court. he is -bent on this idea he is king. to most americans, they don't want to get involved in this red team, blue team,

conservative quarter liberal court. did you run for president for the right reasons? did you want to help me and the cost of what i am paying at the grocery store, or is it about making your criminal cases go away and putting your rich friends in positions of power? if this is where he puts his focus, he will lose the american people pretty quickly. >> there's a political western i have to ask. is the first to run is a convicted felon and it's confirmed to be the first president to be they convicted felon. the country still elected him. if your democrats running for office, there are midterms, people have announced. do you talk about that or not talk about it? >> the conviction? >> being a convicted felon as president. >> people need to focus, elected officials need to focus on the issues that matter to people's lives. if i may senator or democratic senator in washington, i'm

looking for opportunities to do that. find that common ground. like, every trump nominee is not crazy. trying to find the right world. marco rubio is not owing to embarrass the country on the world stage. the secretary of treasury nominee, doug burgum, the former governor of north dakota. these are people who reasonable democrats should take a hard look at and if they're qualified and they will not embarrass them, democrats should support them. >> if he is looking for somebody to work with on immigration, innovation, reducing crime, he will find the best partner and me. if he let his corrupt instincts get in the way, he will find the strongest wall. >> he is a good person to validate. eric swalwell, anthony coley, thank you. i appreciate you. we are going to talk about

the drones. everybody has questions and theories. trump of weighed in today and lawmakers are demanding more answers. i have the perfect person to talk to about that. my conversation with john kirby is coming up. .

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the night skies above new jersey for the past month. recently, there been reports of drone sightings in new york, connecticut, maryland, delaware. federal officials have tried to reassure there's no cause for alarm and they don't appear to be aligned with foreign entities or have malicious intent. at least some of these flying objects have been found to be regular manned aircraft are legally operated drones. in other words, no cause for panic. that is the message. today, trump seemed to be pushing a conspiracy theory that the federal government, the president and military, know exactly where the drones are coming from and are not telling us. >> the government knows what is happening. look, our military knows where they took off from. if it's a garage they can go into the garage. they know where it came from and where it went. for some reason, they don't want to comment. i think they would be better saying what it is.

the military knows and over president knows. for some reason, they want to keep people in suspense. >> joining me as white house national security communications adviser, john kirby. it's great to see you and thank you for taking the time. we just played that clip of president elect trump basically suggesting that the government is trying to keep people in suspense. you did a briefing today after that press conference. for people who have not seen the, sheriff with the viewers what they should know about the drone situation. >> we are working on this hard. what i briefed today as we have made initial assessment based on the forensic we have been doing the last few days and the assessment is that these drones, these things people are seeing in the sky are not just civilian aircraft but also drones of a commercial, law enforcement and hobbyist's. we see nothing anomalous.

no evidence of criminal activity and nothing illegal and certainly nothing that points to and affairs national security threats. we have done 5000 sightings, have been worked through. the fbi boiled it down to 100 we still have to triangulate and work. it's echo ongoing effort and i cannot rule out where that will take us in the future but we have tried very hard since last week to be as open and transparent as we can about what we know and what we do not know. and now a few days later we know a little more. our assessment to date is these are legal and lawful drones and other aircraft. >> i want to make sure i get this right. you said this in your briefing too, there are 5000 drone sightings and some are stars and some are completely legal drones or aircraft even. about 100 of which need to be followed up on. are those 100 open cases or have any been resolved ? >> as of today it's about 100

they need to work through. it's important to remember, as you know, if you get 12 people seeing the same aircraft, they call it in and that's 12 sightings even though it's one aircraft. that 5000 was quickly dwindled down when you triangulate who was seeing what and what location and you can determine it's a single aircraft. even a star has been called in as a sighting. we have 100 or so the fbi is trying angulated and they will get continued sightings as days goes on and we will work with them closely, local and state authorities to cooperate information. >> there's about 1 million a correct me if i'm wrong, 1 million registered by the fpa -- fbi. it's the unusual concentration around new jersey. what do you know about why that is? >> it's difficult to say why people are seeing so many in a concentrated area.

we are working with local authorities to work our way through that. i do think it's important to remind people about the sheer size and scale and scope of drone into -- activity all over the country. the vast majority is legal. it's lawful and it's very much good for the common good. a lot our law enforcement drones are commercial drones working on delivery of goods and services. i don't know why people, why is and issue in new jersey. we are working our way through that. again, everything points to lawful and legal activity. no threat to public safety and no threat to national security, at least represented by what we are seeing now. >> you have followed information traveling quickly online. hard to control at times. you have said no for an entity or threats. you've given more specifics. why do you think people are so

concerned? how do you explain that, deceit drones coming out of the ocean or high concentration, but how do you explain the level of concern out there? >> i think it is legitimate concern. you look up and it's darker longer now and the skies have been clear as of late. you look up and see this activity and i'm sure a lot our drones and drones don't behave in ways we are used to aircraft. there is a unique sound whether a propeller or jet aircraft and drones don't act like that. they can be erratic and they can hover and go fast or slow. that is something new in the skies for many people, and they're seeing this and reporting it. i want to stress that we want people to keep calling these in. there is a tip line and use the tip line. we are taking this seriously

and we understand there is concern and there's a lot of curiosity about these things. we want to get to the bottom same as everybody. our assessment right now to date given the work we have done in the last week tells us that these are legal and unlawful aircraft activity. >> john kirby, thank you for coming out and joining us. people have lots of questions and you always have provide a lot of clarity to hard and confusing questions. >> good to be with you. coming up. rfk jr. heads to capitol hill and trump reminds us they don't even need to revoke vaccines to do damage. i will explain. i will explain. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see.

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out if your policy qualifies. or call the number on your screen. coventry direct, redefining insurance. today, trump's nominee to lead the department of health and human services, robert f. kennedy jr., met with senators on capitol hill. for the last two decades he has been one of the most prominent voices of the anti-vaccine movement. i'm sure he was asked about it. he claimed he is not anti-vacs and never to the public to avoid vaccination, he said that, quote, there is no vaccine that is safe and effective. among the litany of conspiracy theories rfk has repeated over the years is that debunked notion that childhood vaccines are linked to autism. that's a theory, let's not forget, that trump also advanced

even before he got into politics. in 2014, trump tweeted healthy young child goes to doctor, gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines, doesn't feel good and changes. autism. many such cases. trump actually met with rk jr. in 2070 just before he was sworn into his first term. this flirtation with the anti- vacs movement back then was short-lived back then. within a year, rfk jr. said trump's team cut off all communications in the administration decided to go in another direction. history shows trump did kind of go in another direction. one of his few undeniable achievements was implemented operation warp speed that develop the covid vaccine. and yet, during the rollout of those life-saving vaccines, anti-vacs sentiment group thanks in part to people like rfk jr. who continue to sow doubt about their safety. suddenly, trump had to decide between touting a

accomplishment and not angering a growing portion of his base. >> we developed a vaccine, three vaccines, and three months , nine months, and i will tell you, it was three days less. three days less than nine months. it is great. you know what? i believe in your freedoms. you've got to do what you have to do. i recommend taking the vaccines. i did it. it's good. take the vaccines. that's okay. that's all right. you have your freedoms. >> we all know the impact of those. we know the way trump went. we know he would rather distance himself from his own legacy of sorts on the covid vaccine then risk the anger of his base. this time, he openly campaigned on withholding funds of schools with vaccine mandates. he appointed a leader the anti- vacs movement to go wild on public health policy. he has backed to the debunked

autism link. he said again today that something is wrong and that kennedy will look into it. maybe this is due to trump's proclivity for conspiracies and maybe it's the people serving as guardrails in the first administration are not there. maybe it's the enormous shift among republicans. in 2019, only 20% of republicans believed parents should be able to decide not to vaccinate their children. even if it may create health risks for others. in 2023, that jumped to 42%. say what you want about trump. he knows how to read a poll. look, if you don't know if kennedy will be confirmed derivative the new trump administration will revoke certain vaccines, but even if they do not. the damage has started to be done because trump is eroding confidence in vaccines at a critical time and making a political gamble that could very well come at your expense. coming up, my friend john --

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as the democratic party grapples with what went wrong in 2024, there's no shortage of fresh ideas for the path forward. some better than others but we love ideas. today tim ryan suggested the dnc should move the d.c. headquarters to youngstown, ohio, saying the party needs to get the hell out of the d.c. bubble. a candidate for the dnc chair pledged to reassess the dnc vendor contracts. okay. gun control advocate david hogg

who announced his run for dnc vice chair this morning is calling for generational change within the leadership and were seeing some of that happen even on the hill with party committee leaders. to the extent there is common thread running through those proposals and others, it's the idea that more of the same will not cut it. my next guest agrees. and his latest piece, jon favreau writes, quote, 2024 should be a clarifying moment for those of us who spent the past decade trying to keep trump out of power. most americans weren't convinced they would be better off under democratic world. there's no shortcut back to power that avoids the difficult task of convincing people to change their minds. joining me as former obama speechwriter cohost to pet save america jon favreau. we have been thinking about this and it's an excellent piece and a lot of things will anger people and may have already, which is okay. i wanted to ask about a couple of the. one of the points you make is it would be very easy for

democrats to kind of soothes themselves into believing that in 2028, people will want change again and we will win back power and democrats will win back power. to convince themselves the loss was not so big. narrower than initially reported and not make any changes. that's a big part of it but talk about that a little more and why it's not the right approach. >> sure. thank you for having me on. i think the democratic party, we have a math problem which is we have been steadily losing working-class voters for the last several decades, but it accelerated after 2016. at first it was mostly white working-class voters, voters without a college education. then trump started peeling away latino voters, working-class voters, without a college education. in the last election, asian american voters and some black

men as well and younger voters without a college degree even among gen z, the split was if you don't have a college degree you will vote for trump and if you did you would vote for harris. it will be tough and almost impossible to win the presidency with a purely college-educated base of voters but it will be impossible to get 51 seats in the senate because you need to pick off north carolina and ohio and iowa. states we haven't won in a long time with the way the math is, the only way to win the states is to win back voters without a college education, at least some portion of voters without a college degree who left the party in recent years. >> that's the core question. how do we do that? you referenced, we both worked for barack obama, for many years and neither is suggesting he and his approach is the answer just to preface. you said a couple of things. you wrote underrated aspect of

obama's appeal is how far he tried to empathize with the people he was trying to lead. even if they were not for him, he made it clear he was for them. the other piece this reminded me of this obama was not afraid to anger groups. he would people off on a regular basis. that is something the party has gotten away from a little bit. it's not a replication of obama, policies in the world has changed, what lessons given he won two terms by pretty sizable margins? >> the reason i brought up our former bosses he started as a community organizer. i have found that when i am debating with people, discussing politics with people, when you have a background as a organizer whether politics or to the left

or right, then the conversation is more productive than 95% of social media interactions. i think that is because organizers are trained to persuade. i think the fundamental task of democrats right now, and i think it's a job at the official party, politicians, but also a lot of voters get their impression of politics from a random assortment of algorithmic takes. if you have a large following and posting a lot and a volunteer or a democrat who cares or influencer, you have a role too. when we are online, we encounter people with broadly cohesive political identities. we know what a leftist thinks for a liberal think story maga republican thanks and a never trumper thanks. most americans don't fall into those categories. most have weird views or what we think are weird. those who watch msnbc and listen to pet save america and

sometimes their super liberal on issues and super conservative on others. that doesn't mean they're centrist or moderate. they also tend not to think of politics as a life-and-death good versus evil struggle. that frustrates us sometimes but that's a reality of how most voters in america. the good news is a lot of persuadable and it requires meet people where they are and not leave them there. bring them along and try to emphasize where you can of people think it's we need to be nicer. it's not about being nicer but about really trying to figure out where someone is and trying to persuade them and not schooled them or shame them. not just because you want to be nice but it's a good political strategy to try to bring someone to your side. we come to think it's impossible . most of the people in politics believe what they believe and they are partisans one way or the other but most

are not like that. as democrats think of what is next, the way we talk about politics has to be open to people who may not agree about everything but are willing to vote for us if they hear more and have a conversation and let us -- have a real conversation and listen to people. >> we don't have a ton of time but i loved what you said when you said, we political obsessives, you and i and perhaps everyone watching who will listen to pod save america tomorrow maybe in this category, meet trump coverage, quote, inaccessible and exhausting. everybody out there who wants to expand the base of people who are listening, what should they be doing? >> i think it's keeping in mind that when you were talking to friends about politics are talking to strangers online about politics, we have to make politics accessible for people.

we cannot crank up the outrage to 11 every time even though we may feel that donald trump gives a lot of things to be outraged about all the time. we also, as i said, it can be exhausting and it can feel like scolding and shaming. it might feel good to be right but politics is not about being right trying to build power and that's what we have to think about. >> it's about winning. jon favreau, thank you .

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okay, that does it for me tonight. the rachel maddow show starts right now. hi, rachel. >> hey, jen. i was happy to see you in washington the other day. nice to run into you. >> you too. and to see susan. we love her. >> any time you see susan anywhere like 28 to 38 days around christmas on either side of it, she's ten times happier than she is any other time of the year. so you got to see susan at like peak susan happiness because we're this close to christmas. >> she was glowing near the christmas tree. i believe you. i take your word for. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. really happy to have you here. so speaking of holidays, two years ago on thanksg