slippery slope with respect to the use of the terrorism charge but the use of evidence in this case. is it self-reflective to some of a police stace. all of the electronic surveillance involved here. it is itself something that concerned many civil libertarians. so you're right to say this is a concern and i'll be very curious to see how they attempt to persuade a jury, particularly a manhattan jury when luigi mangione may have taken on full hero status and that i intended to kill brian thompson and -- >> and murder in the second-degree, which is a max max life in prison, two counts would that be two life sentences that they could put counts, wouo life sentences on top of each other or concurrent? >> they would be inalternative to each other, and one murder committed and one is straight murder in the second degree and one is murder in the second

degree in furtherance of an act of terrorism, again. >> we will leave it here. lisa ruben, thank you very much. that's it for me. "deadline white house" starts right now. hey, everyone. it's 4:00 in york. i am in for nicole wallace. brand-new reporting gives us a glimpse into the world of pete hegseth. just this morning cnn unearthed clips of hegseth on former house speaker newt gingrich's podcast, peddling the completely baseless claim that leftest groups staged a false flag at the capitol. >> just from common sense that antifa folks took advantage of this to try and get to the front and try to agitate and create openings for themselves.

they want chaos ultimately. you can see the helmets where there's a donald trump pumper sticker on the back so they could look like they wanted to stop the steal. >> i know this that you know that is false. here's what christopher wray said two months after the attack. >> has there so far been any evidence that the january 6th riot, that there were some posing as donald trump -- >> we have not seen evidence. >> was it organized or carried out by groups like antifa or black lives matter? >> we have not seen any evidence thus far -- >> no evidence. whatever right wing narratives they use to excuse or whitewash

that, hegseth gives that to them. >> listen, they believe the election were stolen and wish there were more resources and watched what has happened and has seen stories be suppressed like hunter biden, and the media has taken the line that said this is fact checked and debunked because government officials are telling us this is not true, and when was the last time the media was supposed to reflect and back upon what the media is saying. >> his sympathies for those responsibility for what the fbi director calls an act of terrorism to the many questions

surrounding hegseth's views. he has been dogged by questions surrounding his support for extremism. an intelligence officer flagged a tattoo on his bicep with a battle cry that has been brandished by capitol rioters. a former army special forces master sergeant who attacked a civilian during a training exercise in 2019, "the new york times" saying he beat a civilian role player, kicking him, punching him and leaving him hogtied in a pool of his own blood. a military jury found him guilty of the assault charge in a court-martial in 2020. that's according to our new

records. the judge overseeing a case declared a mistrial. he told "the new york times" i have no conviction and was honorably retired after 20 years of service. that's all you need to know. for his part, hegseth is standing by his security detail. his lawyer telling "the new york times" that hasenbine -- alison jazzlo is here, and it's good to see you all. in hegseth's comments, things we

heard him say about what happened on january 6th, does donald trump, do people in donald trump's orbit see hegseth's support for the capitol rioters as a plus rather than a demerit? >> for donald trump, he wants to know with his incoming administration and chief among them, the individual who would lead his next pentagon, the extent to which they would carry out the orders coming from the oval office come 2025 and beyond. for donald trump, knowing pete hegseth as somebody who defended his actions, then president trump's action on january 6th and defended the rioters, the attackers that went in and stopped the peaceful transfer of power, and for donald trump this is a key component in finding somebody that would be able to serve in a capacity that he

would see as sufficient. for pete hegseth, not only noting and suggesting it was an inside job, that there was antifa behind the attack, and we have known time and again that that is not the case, and even the recent doji report came out last week, said there were four fbi confidential human sources in the capitol that day, and we are talking about thousands of trump supporters, many pleaded guilty and served time for attack the capitol, and for donald trump he prop gated over the years that this was an inside job and he requested national guard assistance which was denied, and that's not accurate, either. for donald trump, having somebody that could utilize the material for domestic purposes as donald trump has suggested in the past who would seek to do, and this is a key litmus test in finding somebody that he would

have the utmost belief that he would carry out the duties that he would call on his pentagon to carry out from the oval office. >> and what is the thinking at mar-a-lago regarding hegseth and his chances of getting confirmed? >> at this time, with donald trump he was at the army and navy game alongside pete hegseth, and he stood by his side. it was matt gaetz that heard several affirmative no votes that led him to drop the attorney general, and now hegseth has not given a specific no, and these 101 meetings are important for him. at the same time, donald trump has suggested that republican senators up in 2026, like joni

ernst, mike cassidy, they could face primary challengers in 2026 in the scenario that, in donald trump's terms, they were too unreasonably trying to block his cabinet picks, and as of now there are hard nos. >> there's donald trump himself and the hard push we are watching from broader maga allies to get hegseth into the pentagon. why make this the all hands on mission? >> for donald trump, this is a head nod to those who have affirmed loyalty to him and have given donald trump the word that they would intent to use their cabinet positions in the departments and agencies they over oversee to fulfill his orders, and during the campaign i was told time and again that he would seek in 2025 to fill his

cabinet out with individuals where there would not be roadblocks to the executive use of power he saw fit in his second go around, and he blamed in 2017-18, much of the slowness on having individuals serve in capacities, as for example, secretary of defense and secretary of state and other top leadership posts for his inability to affect the change, and his loyal allies were in place and the pandemic hit, and he time and again said he wanted to make sure that he surrounded himself by people that he had the most belief in and these nominees who he announced over the course of the last few weeks, they represent that and donald trump, true to his word,

is standing by them to the very end. >> vaughn hillyard, live for us in west palm beach. thank you for joining us and for your reporting. >> alison, i want to look at this, the things hegseth said about january 6th and the people he decided to surround himself with, and what message does it send to the men and women in uniform? >> i think a couple things. first of all, there are very concerning aspects of hegseth's character, and there are multiple examples and concerning parts of who he is as a person and who he would then be as a leader of our men and women in uniform. then i think it gets not enough attention, his active lobbying to get convicted war criminals pardoned. these are not war criminals that somebody went after from civilian society but they were

convicted because men strung alongside them and saw the horrors of war with them said they crossed the line, and you have navy s.e.a.l.s that risked their careers to see justice took place and held those service members to account, which the military really does well. if we are going to elevate somebody as the secretary of defense that thinks war crimes are okay, and that's a problem for our national security. >> i will not make you or our viewers listen of what donald trump said about hegseth, and i will tell you, he gave up a lot because he thought he was going places in fox, and it says something to me when you think giving up a spot on cable news is the same as leading the largest u.s. agency in the

government, no? >> listen, let me tee off of what alison was talking about. we can talk about hegseth's public drunkenness, and what that says about his ability to serve and lead in this very important position, and we can talk about his lack of qualifications running a organization of millions and millions of people, and we can talk about his attitude about women in the military that would hurt the military force if he tried to minimize the contributions of women that serve and lose their lives for our country. the military justice part is really important, as alison said. our military is an organization that depends on discipline, and the uniform code of military justice is riddled with requirements that must be put in place before somebody is convicted under the uniform code

of military justice. as alison said, the cases he advocated for including the guy he hired as his security for this nomination process, that system depends on other members of the military testifying, if you don't believe me ask lindsay graham, haefps e was not only t defense lawyer but the chief prosecutor in europe at one point in time in the military justice system. the idea that this guy wants to pretend the military is woke and not handing out appropriate punishment to people that violate that code, that's a joke. i mean, it's almost as big a joke as saying the fbi is woke. believe me, the military's problem is not that it's too woke. that is not an issue. we have a lot of problems that we need to deal with in the military, but that is not one of them. that alone should get at least

four, if not 40 senators in the republican party to say no. >> angelo, your thoughts? >> i think ultimately, as i look at all this, one of the things that hegseth believes is might makes right and that's a compelling argument to a lot of people especially if you are trying to transform and even through brute force our government and culture, and the example of the person being his security guard, he knows what he's doing and that's what ties into the larger fight, if you are going to have a rise up of authorize tearens, a lot of it is theater. to meet the ingredients he brings, might makes right, which is terrifying, and he will turn a blind eye or fully execute trump's orders even if they are contrary to law, and then this

guy also has a world view that has advocating for attacking national and cultural heritage sites and believes you should kill civilians if they are muslims, and you will have to roll back policies that softened up the military as lefality. all these stories that pop up, they are grounded in the central idea that might makes right and the christian nationalist view. >> and the times said it's not a good look. do you agree? >> i totally agree. i think the gentleman that was attacked in there saying his security detail by a guy that has anger israel sue right on p.

there's no reason why something like that should have gone down, and frankly i am kind of blown away it was able to happen. i would think some of his other buddies would have pulled him off quickly, and to me that says it was an aggressive pursuit, and you want to think about things out of line in war, this was a training event. that was very out of line in a training event. it sounds like he was being held to account and something went sideways and they gave him an easy out. he is able to hide behind that now. if we judge people by the company they keep, i think that says it all right there. >> angela, just real quick, when did working at fox news become a qualification to run a major branch of the u.s. government? >> i mean, for trump that is an important qualification, because what he relies on is narrative

dominance and if you are a media figure, that's the tip of the sphere. it shouldn't be. his only relevant qualifications is when he ran organizations and didn't do a good job. for trump, we have seen the revolving door, and you can build and rely on support and control the story or shape the perception, and for trump perception is reality. in a way it's playing out, right? all these things you would think would topple hegseth so far, but the fact that he's right wing, that's when you see trump coming back around saying you got my support. >> as always, thank you for being with us. claire mccaskill, you are sticking with us. coming up, new charges in the last hour involving man

ouija sz. . how the president-elect plans to, quote, unquote, straighten out the press. those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues. ine white house" continues. to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans can help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. ♪♪ if you're living with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis or active psoriatic arthritis symptoms can sometimes hold you back. but now there's skyrizi,

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mangione did. we don't celebrate murders and we don't lyonize the killing of anybody. any attempt to rationalize this is a vile, reckless and offensive to our deeply held principles of justice. >> mangione has been charged with one count of first-degree murder with furtherance of terrorism, and two counts of murder in the second degree, one charged as an act of terrorism and a number of charges related to positions of weapons. let's bring in lisa ruben, and the former top prosecutor and legal analyst, mr. weissman. >> as you noted the majority of

the charges stem from the possession of the gun and the related paraphernalia, and he could be independently convicted of each of the seven gun charges. where it comes to the murder charge, i think the first one is the most interesting and the one designed to really carry the most punch and that's the murder in the first degree charge, so just premedicated murder is not the same as first-degree murder in new york. in the indictment, it parallels the language, essentially carrying the premedicated murder, knowing you are going to

carry out this murder, and also the unit of government for intimidatio intimidation -- and what i found interesting about the press conference is it seems as if the new york city police commissioner, in talking about the commission of the crime was attempting to bolster the terrorism charge and explaining this was cold, this was calculated and designed to scare people, and that's a way of surrounding the charges here with a cushioning of language about the terrorism charge. whether they can prove his intent. we don't know much of what he left behind electronically.

we have seen maybe a snippet of his writings. >> lisa's mind went where mine did, which is how do you prove his intention was, in fact, terrorism? >> when i say a traditional or true terrorism case, somebody is al qaeda or isis and there's something with the boston bombing that happened, where there's a repeated bombing in a public setting killing and hurting, you know, scores of people. so there it sort of speaks to itself. you have that. here, when you have an isolated event where there doesn't appear, and we don't know and it doesn't appear that he was actively publicizing this and using it to engage in terrorism,

and on paper it appears to be a bit of a reach from what we have seen, like the public evidence doesn't seem to support that. again, lisa is right, we don't know, privately he was saying all sorts of things. the government doesn't have to prove that to get a conviction because they will say they want a lesser included charge. when you charge first degree, you will give the jury the option of saying, you know, if we don't prove terrorism, you can find just plain old murder and for a murder charge if they get a conviction, and this seems like a very strong case for that, that, you know, you would still get a lot of time. my sort of -- my sort of mind is not so much to the terrorism piece because i thought that

seemed a little bit of a stretch from what we know, and it's more are we going to hear from the defense about mental health issues. i don't mean that in any way in a dispairagement or as an excuse, but as an explanation. what we have seen publicly is such an erratic look at smart things and things you wouldn't expect a smart criminal to do, going to starbucks beforehand and still having a lot of the evidence on you days after the arrest seems inconsistent with somebody who also clearly knew where the victim was going to be, planned that and figured out how to escape. it seems like there could be some grounds for a mental health defense, or at least with respect to sentencing raising that. i think that's something to keep an eye out for. >> you get last word but i am curious where this goes from here? >> certainly we should expect to

see mangione in new york sooner than later, and before we came to air, we heard he was wavin waving -- waiving the extradition. despite heading back to washington soon, donald trump's bid to dismiss his conviction in new york has been denied. that story when we come back. serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections may occur. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or if you need a vaccine. emerge with clear skin. ask your doctor

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and try clear fibre, with no grit and no flavor. the new york judge denied trump's bid to toss his guilty verdict. judge merchan rejected the argument that the 34 felony counts should be tossed for immunity. "the new york times" says mr. trump managed to avoid all punishment whatsoever in the only case that went to criminal trial would make it ideal. if the ruling does stand trump could pwuplg become the first f

serve as president. we're back. does that surprise you at all? >> this stems from the supreme court's decision, and to get super nerdy -- >> i like the way you referenced the supreme court on presidential immunity as if we may not have been familiar or watched it. >> one aspect of the decision said even when you have a case that involves not official action, personal action by a president, which clearly the new york case was personal action, that there's restriction on using official act evidence, that is evidence from the time the president was the president acting as the president in his official capacity, and so donald trump after the decision came id, okay, scoured the

record to find anything he happened during president and made the claim this is all official act, and that's what the judge was relying on and ruling on, and noting something about the supreme court decision, and everybody thinks it was a 6-3 decision, and amy coney barrett descended on this part of the decision, and it's by far the weakest part of the case. 5-4 is still a decision in trump's favor, but if it were to go to the supreme court there's more reason to think that this would be a tough road for donald trump because it's -- it's such a tenuous argument here. judge merchan basically ruled every which way for the government on this and one quick think i thought he did which was notable for the trial judge, is he said a lot of what donald trump complained about was evidence that donald trump himself put into the record. you can't sit there and say i

elicited evidence i thought would be helpful to me for the time i was president but it was an error to do it. >> but wouldn't be to build al political argument? >> absolutely. there's two audiences to the brief. no question. there's a surprising amount, even for donald trump, of this language, and i am a buttoned up lawyer and even for me it was shocking, but as a pure legal matter, this is where judge merchan is correct and made alternative rulings and, as i said, is focusing on, i think, the weakest part of the supreme court decision. >> there are a lot of stops between here and the supreme court so talk me through those. >> i keep going back to, and in your introduction you said if the conviction was sustained he would be the first sitting president to be a convicted felon, and i want to put an

asterisk in that, and one of the options given to judge merchan, not only to stay the sentencing, but also there's abatement, and that's when a defendant after a conviction but prior to sentencing dies or flees the jurisdiction, and that would leave the conviction in place but donald trump would never lead to a sentencing, and that's why we couldn't say he was convicted, and it usually refers to somebody who has already been through a sentencing process. it's possible donald trump's conviction will stand and there will never be sentencing, and whoever represents attorneys in the future, and whoever represents trump in the future has to then think about are we

going to appeal it if there's no sentence or leave it in place. donald trump being donald trump, i don't think he will be content to leave it here. >> which is best for accountability giving the limited options now on the table? >> abatement, but, again, new york law doesn't recognize abatement so while it's creative lawyering by the new york d.a.'s office, and we are not one of the states where this is currently recognized but this is a great option for you. i want to say something else about accounted -- accountability, and there are still counts against the future president, and most likely some are going to be held up in some way, and the amount of money donald trump will be forced to pay in the end, and i think the new york attorney general's verdict will stand and the jean

carroll trump will stand. >> you are making faces? >> i was. i think one option for judge merchan is to say, yes, there's a policy that a sitting president will not be subject to an indictment. there's -- that is temporary immunity. it's different than sort of the idea of full immunity. that's a temporary period where the president gets to act just as president without worrying about a criminal case. that is not permanent immunity. so the judge here could say, look, give him a timeline. there's no time to get you sentenced before january 20th, so just practically i can't do that so i am going to stay this case and that will happen after you are no longer immune, which is when you are no longer a

president and you will be held just like anybody else to account. imagine the situation where we were dealing with a murder. would any of you sit there and say, oh, yeah, just because somebody becomes president, let's just wipe thataway and have no accountability. here the d.a. has very convincing arguments about why it's a serious crime. it's 34 felonies. whatever the sentence can be, the sentence will be and that will be up to judge merchan. the argument is treat him like anybody else post presidency, so you just put it off in keeping with the idea of temporary immunity. >> it assumes this is a president that lasts four years. lisa ruben, thank you so much for being with us. andrew will be back with us in the next hour. when we come back, kamala harris sounding optimistic for her future. we will show you just what she had to say straight ahead.

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life's good. when you have a plan. ♪♪ your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire we must stay in the fight. every one of us, including the fight for an economy that works not just for those at the top but for working people, for all americans. the fight to make sure that everybody has a fair shot to pursue their ambitions, the fight for our ideals, including

the equality among us, the freedoms to which we are entitled, the dignity that we possess and is possessed by every one of us. so we must stay in the fight because that is the responsibility, in my opinion, that comes with the privilege of being an american. >> vice president harris today at an address for young civil leaders urging them and all of us not to give up on the fight for america's future. it is her first major address since her concession speech. joining our conversation, msnbc political analysts and princeton university professor, eddy glad, and claire mccaskill. how did you feel watching the

vice president's speech? >> i have to be honest this was hard. i think i share the same emotions and frankly, disappointment and sometimes anger and depression over where we find ourselves, especially when you see what a strong and capable leader came in second, and i think everybody just kind of wanted to turn off for a while. it was just too much, so i was really glad to see this strong and capable leader out there today and not wagging her finger but coming close, saying to everybody, hey, come on folks, we have stuff to fight for. i think we learned during a historically short presidential campaign in the terms of my lifetime how much strength she has and how good she is at communicating, and i'm so happy to see her out there to urge us

all to quit wallowing in our sorrow about what happened and get busy. i think you will see more of her out there in the coming weeks and months trying to encourage all of us to get over the malaise we all feel after november. >> eddy, part of the call claire is referencing, contextualizing this. take a look. >> the story of america's progress -- you all know history. the story of america's progress, when we have made progress, in many ways, is the story of people who stayed true to their ideals even in the face of difficulty. the story of americans who faced disappointment but did not grow

weary -- did not grow weary, who faced setbacks but did not give up. the true test of our commitment is whether in the face of an obstacle do we throw up our hands or do we roll up our sleeves? >> what does that invoke for you? >> oh, it's extraordinary powerful information. it let's us know she understands the struggle for america and the fight for america has been an ongoing one since our founding and it's been a fight, of course, as lincoln would say, for better angels against lesser angels and a fight against greed against selfishness, and it's part of our history and she wanted to locate this moment, our effort in that grand tradition of folks who continue

to struggle for democracy. america is not an idea but an argument, an argument to have been had over time and has been made over time and she made that very, very clear. i wanted to acknowledge something that claire just said. folks are not only -- it's not only a malaise, they are fighting resignation. they are fighting exhaustion, and it will take a minute for folks to get up and i thought it was important for vice president harris to model would consist of. >> quote, in the wake of her own 2024 loss, kamala harris and her allies are grappling for what her political future holds and debating whether the unofficial rules still applies, specifically whether her first shot at the white house as the democratic nominee should be her only one given the circumstances

of the sprint to election day. what would you counsel her, senator? >> i will tell her there are no rules at this point. seriously, we will talk about whether she can run again? about rules? you have looked at the other side? are there any rules left? and the sooner we take the attitude that we have to run the strongest candidate we can and there's no -- there will have to be a precedent for it, so i think she has big decisions to make and i think she has options. i will not begrudge her no matter what she decides and i am confident she has not decided. she has options of being governor of the state of california, which i think would be a fairly low branch to grab. i think that would be something that certainly california would benefit from. i know she would be great at it. i think she can run for president again. i think she has an opportunity to do other things if she wanted to do that, that could really impact this country.

one thing about doing what she did as well as she did it, she's got options and she deserves some time to explore them. at the end, you know who will decide? her. >> i have to tell you, eddie, what claire just said i have heard from others we are now at a moment where there are no rules and for somebody that is type a and rules-based, that stresses me out tremendously and opens the aperture for somebody like vice president harris. >> absolutely. i think it's important for us to understand what we are facing. you know, we talked about the crisis point and the threat to american democracy, and claire is right, they don't give a damn about rules, and they suppose we do as a precondition they can act without account and we act with constraint. it's important for us to understand what is in front of

us. give vice president harris the time and space to decide what she wants to do, but we have to understand that the battle for american democracy is on. it's not going to start tomorrow. it is starting now. we have to all get ourselves ready for that fight and to engage in it and not look to one politician or one person to lead the way. we all have to do this. so i want -- like claire i want to give the vice president time to figure it out. she's going to land and be magnificent and be a force. what we have to do is gather ourselves up and take responsibility for democracy now because it's under threat. >> i think that message lands differently for the person that had in upl some ways the most t lose. we will sneak in a quick break and be right back. cancer is just what we do. this holiday season, join our st. jude family.

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it's easier for talented candidates to find it. which makes it easier for you to hire them. visit indeed.com/hire an update on the shooting in madison at the abundant life christian school that left three dead including the suspect as well as 600. at a press conference is afternoon, the police chief confirming that two students continue to be in critical condition. a teacher and three other students have non-life- threatening injuries. the police chief stated the suspects motive was a quote, combination of factors, and the victims do not appear to have been specifically targeted. he also said numerous schools in the madison metropolitan school districts were targeted by swatting call today. we will keep you updated on the story as we learn more. ahead, donald trump upping his

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i'm going to be bringing one against the people in iowa, the newspaper, there was a poster who got me right all the time and just before the election, she said i was going to lose by 3 to 4 points and it became the biggest story all over the world, because i was going to win iowa by 20 points. we will probably file a major lawsuit against them today or

tomorrow. i feel like i have to do this. i shouldn't be the one to do it. it should have been the justice department or somebody else but i have to do it. of course, it costs a lot of money to do it but, we have to straighten out the press. our press is very corrupt. almost as corrupt as our elections. >> again everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. you know it's the kind of thing you hear coming out of a talker sees, straightening out the press, going after polling that shows unfavorable results to the current leader, nothing is as you see and a democracy like the united states and yet as you just heard, the next president of the united states, already flexing his autocratic muscles threatening negative coverage of him with legal action, and it's not an empty threat, yesterday trump sued that polling firm, the pull out three days before the election, it should vice president harris with a three point lead over donald trump. it was a shocker, one taken

pretty seriously due to her high success record. cells are surveyed this november it ended up being wrong, trump won the state by 13 points, a 16 point gap from what her poll predicted but instead of just leaving it there, basking in his victory, trump is now going after the pollster saying she committed election interference. from that lawsuit, quote, millions of americans including plaintiff, residents of iowa and islands who contributed to president trump's campaign and its affiliated indices -- entities were conceived by the dr. harris poll. in a statement the des moines register said, quote, we believe this lawsuit is without merit and we acknowledge that the pre-election poll did not

reflect the ultimate margin of trump's election day victory in iowa by releasing the full's demographics, crosstabs, weighted and unweighted data as well as a technical explanation from polster and seltzer, we stand by our reporting on the matter and will vigorously defend our first amendment rights. >> but the merit of this suit, isn't the point, he told nbc news the odds of success here are slim to none, but winning in court is not likely the real goal of the lawsuit. the true motivation is to intimidate the press and journalists, i unfortunately suspect this lawsuit is a harbinger of things to come. and that's where we start with the founder and executive director of protect democracy, also with us professor at princeton university eddie cloud and host of the bulwark podcast tim miller is here and former top prosecutor at the department of justice andrew wiseman, it's good to see you

all. what exactly is trump claiming here? >> i think it's really important to view this in context of an attack on any remaining checks. so the first amendment and the media, which have already been attacked, this is now attacking in a monetary way, so not just missed seltzer but any media company is going to be thinking and journalists will be thinking, do i want this headache, do i want to report this, you're going to be either deciding not to do it, you will skew the results. notably absent from that lawsuit is any facts, i keep on saying this when it comes to the election, because if you notice, trump tied it to his claim of oh it's like the election, well there's just as much a gap in any facts to support that there was fraud in the election and the same thing for this lawsuit, you know, you

wouldn't be surprised if you said, you know what, there's some facts here from which it looked like, they didn't just get it wrong but it was intentionally so which is necessary to win this case but we are in such a fact free zone when donald trump makes these claims where you are sitting there thinking, oh, he's doing this but there actually is no basis in fact, and your comments about autocratic regimes, this is hungry, there is a blueprint for this. >> we've been studying this, they have watched other people run this playbook and now they are stealing a page and running it themselves? >> trump has been open about his admiration for victor or von and what he did was he use the various tools at his disposal to harass media outlets that were critical of him until it became very difficult for them to turn profits and they started making business calculations and ultimately, what ended up happening was some of his allies swept in and brought those properties when they were

struggling and their market value have gone down and turned them into his cheerleaders and there's been speculation that some of the properties out there on the market could be purchased by trump allies. this is a playbook right from orban. being able to get unfiltered information that's not the result of coercion and intimidation. >> i want to make sure that we talk about the stakes, the chilling effect this could have on pollsters and the press and also, it's like, you won, take the win, why be such a sore winner? >> yeah, i guess i would also add onto that, the fact that this is all just preposterous, i mean andrew, god love him, talking about fact, it's not even like they know what they're talking about, trump was like will she was nice to me before, the results of a poll is based upon whether the pollster thinks that trump is good or not, it's like a

personal endorsement of him, if this is all just silly, the idea that that pole hurt him in any way is ridiculous, obviously, as evidenced by the fact that he ended up winning overwhelmingly, this is all premised on nothing. it's just to intimidate. it is just to intimidate. and because of that, like to me, my biggest response and i think about this is where are all of these supposedly free speech advocates on the right, isn't the whole premise of elon musk taking over twitter and the tech guy that is now supporting trump and apparently vetting people for trump, all these pro podcaster's, there like we need speech, the woke left is trying to silence us and shut us up, do any of them actually practice what they preach, is there a single person out there that claim to be a breeze breach -- free

speech advocate that's also concerned about the incoming president-elect trying to silence abc news, cbs news, trying to use the courts to silence pulls that he doesn't like? i mean this is a very real effort by the incoming arm of the government to shut people up, to violate the first amendment rights, to intimidate them, and you would think that if any of this was on the level, you know, or good faith, that some of the people who supported trump under the auspices that they thought it was the left that was trying to silence their speech would speak out now. and the fact that we haven't seen that tells us something very concerning about you know, where this administration is going to go and what, you know, these media arms that support them, you know, are going to do, to enforce his agenda. >> eddie, i understand some of what tim is saying or asking is rhetorical but none of this is

on the level, they are not actually concerned about freedom for all, they are concerned about freedom for themselves? >> absolutely, we need to understand this as raw, naked power, the pursuit of it and the exercise of it, and if we don't then we are being naove, so i think part of what we need to understand or part of what we need to do, if we understand they are following the orban playbook, and they are hypocrites and they don't care about free speech and they are using it in order to beat down and cower folks that disagree with them, if we understand all this, what are we doing in order to respond to it? what are media organizations doing in order to respond to it? what are colleges and universities doing in order to respond to it? are we going to sit back on our heels and let these folks do this, or are we going to organize, are we going to have big democratic donors preparing in order to engage in

countersuits, how are we going to defend democracy, and i think we need to start asking these questions and answering them sincerely. >> we talked about the fact that you had big publications like the washington post, the ellie times, choosing not to endorse and the instinct on the part of a lot of people who do care about democracy and a free press is to say well i'm canceling my subscription because i want to send a message and i turned to you and i said if that's not the answer, then what is and you double down and you actually invest in a free press. when you have the press under attack through litigation, verbally, from the incoming president of the united states, for those of us who do care about democracy and care about a free press, what is the antidote? >> you organize, and i remember being on set talk about it, you get behind people doing the

right thing. right now, the des moines register has said, we are fighting this. we have first amendment rights, this is a meritless lawsuit and we will fight it. and that's instruct contrast to what abc did this weekend in bowing down and doing this ridiculously groveling settlement where they not only paid trump off but they announced it, publicly, and i would be really interested to know if that was a condition of the settlement that required that they announce the amount. i wonder if trump negotiated that as part of it in order to send a message but so far the des moines register says they will fight. so what do we do? we search our support right now. we show the marketplace that we, as citizens in a democracy will stand with and support those media outlets who are willing to fight for the first amendment and not be intimidated. we subscribe to them, we publicly put praise them for it and we create a counterweight to the abcs of the world saying there's an opportunity for those who want to do the right thing in the public, we will search support and get behind you. >> i want to talk about this litigation first with you andrew, in the context of it as

loft there and that i want to talk about the public narrative that they are trying to build. this is time-consuming. is, costly, so how does that play out? what is the benefit and what is the cost to everyone he chooses to go after? >> this is where i think so much of this has to do with corporate america and where their backbone is, because they will be thinking about profits, they will be thinking that not becoming a target of donald trump, of not having this sort of in norma's force of the federal government going after them because of an ad involving transgender people, you know, not putting out programs that can be attacked because they are critical of the government. so much of that is going to be whether you see people pulling their punches. i think there

will be many more, i think there are a number that have happened already in private, where they were talking about you know the hollywood structure in terms of what gets greenlit, what kind of projects they are willing to do, what kind of investments there will be an investigative journalism, whether newspapers like the new york times are going to want to be out there making sort of difficult decisions that could have lawsuits, that is the train we are in when you have a government that doesn't understand that part of being in the government is being criticized. and that, to me, is the huge difference in terms of the world we are in. you know, the country, used to have that as a model and we are just not in that world. so, you know, ian has one option which is the power of the purse, and all of us can do that but it's also going to

take some very, very courageous, wealthy, powerful people standing up for the first amendment, that doesn't mean they have to be critical of everything that donald trump does or everything a democrat does but really understanding the role of putting their wallets where it counts. >> tim, i want to talk about that quote that i read you at the beginning about the odds of success are slim to none, the true motivation is to intimidate the press. i would stipulate there is an additional element, which is simply to confuse the public and to undermine faith in a free press, that there is a message that is being sent, both to his base, and to serve the general public that you can't trust traditional media or traditional polling and that itself, has a chilling effect.

>> and he's had success in both of these counts. if you put yourself in trump's shoes, looking at it from his perspective, he made the bet that the republican party leaders were going to be too cowardly to stand up to him and he saw them as weak people that he could bend to his will, and he was correct about that, the entire republican party folded to him. he made a bet that he could brand the media as fake news, and he could erode people's belief in what they reported about him and he could make a plurality of people, a significant amount of people believe that the media was the enemy, and so that would then diminish the power of their critique of him.

so he's coming from that world where both of those bets worked. i mean, that sucks, i'm not happy about that but that is the reality, is that he correctly judged the republican party elites to be cowards and he could brand the media as fake news, so now, he's just pressing forward with those same objectives, can i erode faith in the media even more, can i erode fake -- faith in institutions, can i demonstrate that there are cowards in other areas, and he is pressing forth in both of those spaces, undermining trust and getting you know, people in power to just submit to him and that is the strategy that is behind this, and he's having success, so far, until people decide to

stand up to him and say no. >> we talked about what that means for all of us. what does it mean for the folks that andrew is referencing, the people who are corporate titans who are suddenly afraid of an incoming autocrat? >> i think the miscalculation that i think they are likely to make is that a piece of it somehow will work, that if they can somehow stop donald trump. but i think what they will find is what we call an autocratic capture that at the end of the day, a leader like donald trump in his movement is going to force private business to be loyal to him politically, if they want to have an opportunity to compete in the marketplace and if they don't demonstrate their loyalty, they will come to force that at a time of their choosing. i think it's interesting that the des moines register was

willing to stand up, i think it says something about corporate mergers, that is predominantly a news organization, that's the biggest part of the business, they are more oriented to stand up for it and bottom line, they need to. i wonder to what extent that played in their calculation, it'll be interesting to see sort of the core news organizations stand up. >> we've been talking about faith and the press. we've been talking about the very dangerous warning signs contained in a new poll showing how far and how fast americans have lost faith in the judiciary, as a result the united states of america finds itself in some not so good company. also the impact of one high- profile decision from the supreme court, and later, ukraine claims responsibility for a targeted attack that killed a top general in charge

of russia's biological defense forces as anxiety and ukraine ramps up ahead of donald trump's return to office. to ofe

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for a year with xfinity mobile. and see “wicked,” in theaters now. three americans in a room and statistically speaking, only one of them what express confidence in our judicial system right now. that's the headline of alarming new data from gallup fresh out today suggesting americans faith in our courts has plummeted over the past four

years. 35%, that's it, that's the share of americans who expressed confidence in the system at large. that's down 24 points from 20 2159% of americans answered affirmatively. especially concerning is the harsh drop appears to be a uniquely american development, from the new york times, quote, public confidence in the judiciaries of other developed nations has remained stable. among the 38 members of the organization for economic development, confidence in national judiciaries stood at 55%. a number that's been consistent over the past decade. the gap between united states and its peers is the largest since gallup started its global poll in 2006. the 35% confidence rate for u.s. courts is the lowest in the history of the survey. you know, any, hard to get americans to agree on pretty much anything but apparently, they agree on this. >> absolutely, i think there's a general crisis across the

board, there's a crisis with regards to the imperial presidency although we have donald trump, crisis with regard to congress, the judiciary, and of course the crisis with regards to the press as we were just talking about. i think all of this has to do with how politicized and how deeply divided we are, where you have a politicized judiciary that is making decisions and is decisions are being ran along the lines of these hard partisan divides, and it leads to deep-seated distress and when you have that in this way, it makes it very hard to think about how democracy will be stable, how will it stabilize, so we are in a really critical inflection point, and i think these numbers suggest how deep that inflection point is, if that makes sense. >> just to illustrate just how deep that point is, let's look at the company the united states is keeping on this, of 160 countries surveyed, only nine observed sharper declines in confidence, myanmar under

military rule, venezuela, upheaval there, syria, who at the time was beginning a civil war and then there's the united states, today. what does that tell you? >> i mean, the alarm cannot be more loudly run on this. for reasons that are both unique to the judiciary and some to eddie's point, the ones that are uniquely concerning about the judiciary is of course, courts don't have armies to enforce their decisions. the american court system depends on trust, in order for the other branches of government and all the other actors in our system to follow the systems. there's no way to enforce them without that, and the fact that there is such low trust in the court system leads to this vulnerability that perhaps, actors will choose not to follow courts. the portrait that donald trump hung in the oval office during his first term was andrew

jackson he famously said of the supreme court decision he didn't agree with was that the chief justice made a decision, now let him enforce it and jackson taunted the court and said we are just not going to follow the orders. the more broad problem here is the one that i think eddie alerts to is in a world in which all institutions suffer from such low degrees of public trust, it is an opportunity for an autocrat to rise because our founders envisioned that there will be multiple power centers in society and they would serve as checks on one another, so none could be too powerful and when all of the other power centers, the media, the courts, congress, the private sector, are showing such weakening signs of public support, it creates an opportunity for some strongmen to come along and say i alone can fix it, only i can be trusted and believed.

to ignore everyone else, i can tell you what truth and reality are. >> right, and that is where you see stories, we covered in the first hour, if you are whitewashing or lying about what happened on january 6th and the deadly insurrection that we all watched unfold, if you're undermining faith in institutions including a free press and then on top of that, walking into a moment where there's not faith in the judiciary, there is a void that someone like donald trump can step into? >> yeah, i'm pretty bleak on this one, alicia, i don't know that i will have much substantive stuff to offer because if you look across every variable, trump has contaminated the pool, he has a full frontal attack on the judiciary, it's not surprising that his supporters would not trust the judiciary, and i don't know how you roll that

back, mitch mcconnell, we can quibble over the terms but essentially stealing a supreme court seat given the way that amy coney barrett seat was treated versus the way that gorsuch's seat was covered. and just to be honest, like i don't think joe biden, the handling of his pardons has helped this very much. most of his friends -- pardons have been a across the board you have a contaminated system where nobody has trust and our leaders have undermined it, and i don't know how you fix that except for slowly one step at a time but we are now in a situation where only one party even cares about trying to fix that, the republicans are going

to continue to try and undermine trust over the next four years. >> so tim underlined something important that we saw in this polling which is, this is bipartisan, so you have folks who are upset about dobbs, upset about presidential immunity, upset about the judiciary and their inability to hold donald trump accountable and then you have folks who just don't trust the judiciary because trump has told him not to. so this is not as though you have a simple partisan solution and tim is getting at something important is that it would take both parties being invested to actually fix it. >> first, it's just not surprising when you have someone who's about to be president who is being charged in four separate cases in court, that there is a full attack by him on the court system, so that is just like we are talking about this attack on the media, it's an obvious and natural thing. you have his saying to his base, do not trust,

prosecutors, the press, the court system, any judge who is ruling against him, can't be trusted. on the other side, the reason this is bipartisan is that you have the supreme court and just think of how far we've come, liz cheney, you are talking about right after the election when donald trump was saying there was fraud in the election, that the courts held up, and that you had lower courts that could sort of look at this and say, there are no facts here, and it was a place where you could say facts and law still matters. but then you have cases like the trump immunity decision, you have the dobbs decision and you have people on the left is saying you know what? this is not fair. it's not fair, it's not impartial, it's not even fair in terms of the personnel, they looked at what happened to merrick garland versus amy coney barrett in terms of the appointment process but then they looked at the way the supreme court has handled itself, including the numerous scandals about sort of their

personal behavior and their lack of an enforceable etcs code. so that you can understand why you would have people on the left and the right saying, because of the highest court in the land in a way that they have sort of, they, they are supposed to model that kind of behavior, so that even if you disagree with them, you are thinking okay, but i still believe in their integrity. they have really not helped themselves, especially at a time when you are going to see this political attack on the system. you know, they need to get their house in order. >> i don't want to make you the antidote guy, ian but i can't allow us to end this on tim admitting that he's pretty bleak on this one, so what do we do, ian? >> look, this tease up something that we should be spending more time talking about, which is this, we are in a massive moment of transformation for this country. americans have lost faith in our

system of government and the institutions within it and donald trump has said, i'm going to transform things by smashing them, and people have not been offered an alternative way to transform it and they said okay we will try that and the answer is that those who believe in the foundational values that undermine freedom of democracy, cannot be in a position and i'm guilty of this myself, of saying, we are going to defend traditions, norms, institutions, when what we really need to do is we need to transform them to deliver better for people and to work in the 21st century. we have let our system atrophy, we have a 20th-century democracy in a 21st-century world, and we need to get into the business of transforming it and making it deliver better otherwise trump is going to demolish it and we are all going to regret that. >> thank you for being with us.

when we return, the real world impact on one of the supreme becourt' high profile decisions. why the population of black and latino students is dropping at top-ranked law schools. that story on of is next. is net (puppy crying) (excited screaming) and with coal in the family, mom and dad used chewy to get everything delivered in time for the holidays. at prices everyone feels jolly about. (♪♪) for low prices and fast shipping. for holidays with pets, there's chewy. michael strahan: i've been a part of the st. jude family for years. and i never thought i'd hear the words, "your child has cancer." well, my 18-year-old daughter was diagnosed with medulloblastoma, a brain tumor. she chose to be treated closer to her twin sister. and thankfully, she is in remission today. st. jude's groundbreaking research in medulloblastoma has helped pediatric hospitals everywhere. st. jude is committed to finding cures and saving children.

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the consequences of the supreme court decision last year banning affirmative action in college admissions might be starting to show. data shows the number of black students entering harvard law school dropped sharply this fall. from the new york times, quote, harvard law enrolled 19 first- year black students, or 3.4% of

the class, that is the lowest number since the 1960s, according to the data from the american bar association. last year, the law schools first-year class had 43 black students. the law school also saw a steep decline in hispanic students to 39 students, that's down from 63 students in 2023. this decline in harvard is noted because of the school's role in educating some of the nation's best-known black lawyers including former president barack obama, former first lady, michelle obama, justice ketanji brown jackson and the former mastication -- massachusetts governor. she wrote, with let them eat cake oblivious this today, the majority pulls the ripcord and announces colorblindness for all by legal fiat. but deeming race irrelevant in law does not make it so in

life. we are back. eddie, i get it's hard to determine a trend from just one year of data, but i wonder what you think looking at these numbers? >> well, it's, it's, this is deeply disturbing. it reveals at least to me that for many of these institutions across higher ed as well as and professional schools that diversity was a matter of compliance, and not really a value that was central to the mission of the institution. i understand the assessment of risk, i get that, but i don't get the capitulation. it's as if everyone suddenly, they are on their heels and ed bloom can act with impunity, and it seems to me that if harvard and princeton and yale and the like, if these institutions are committed to a diverse student body, then they

need to deploy their resources in defense of that value. instead, what we see over and over again particularly in the context of hls is this kind of, we can't call it a trend, is this kind of capitulation to the environment, and that capitulation will have dire effects in terms of the profession of law. >> the profession of law, the judiciary, given the pool that is often pulled from here. i also think it's worth noting that we are talking about harvard likely because harvard was at the center of this case. >> that's right, and we do have to wait for more data. i mean, it is concerning, but we really need more of that. i would note that ketanji brown jackson brilliantly pointed out and was joined, saying that there is nothing that precludes schools from considering the diversity and the way that each student has dealt with that and talked about that, that is

something that should be equally true for all students, so if you are black and you had dealt with adversity, you should be able to write about it, if you are white, hispanic, it's saying that people's personal histories are still something that can be considered. so, that is one route, to see whether that plays out, it may be easier in smaller schools when you can do that kind of granular analysis, but i just want to point out, the power of diversity, someone who teaches at a law school, who deals with judicial decisions, the background of people on judges making decisions and what their real life experience is, i tease the fourth amendment, fifth amendment, sixth amendment, it is so important and how judges rule and what they think norms should be and what they think is reasonable. it comes from looking at, will you only have so much data and

part of that is your own life experience, so, it is really not something where you can say well it's just totally irrelevant and colorblind. you need that diversity to make sure that the rules of law are actually reflecting society. >> let me share a similar sentiment with you, eddie, from justice sotomayor. underrepresented students are more likely to live in poverty and attend schools with a high concentration of poverty. all of these interlocked factors place underrepresented minorities multiple steps behind the starting line in the race for college admissions. given the central role that education plays in breaking the cycle of racial inequalities, these structural barriers reinforce other forms of inequality in communities of color. you cannot ignore race, eddie. >> oh, absolutely. toa bad school, you go to a bad

school, you get a ba education, you get a bad education, you get a bad job, you get a bad job, you live in a bad neighborhood. and so on and so on. let's be very clear here. many of these folks like ed bloom and christopher rufus are talking about merit-based admissions, these are the folks talking about people should earn their position, they are not saying a thing about these mediocre white men that donald trump is putting forward for his cabinet. these are the brightest folks out here, these are the folks who have merit and let's be clear, i'm getting kind of annoyed, alicia, let be clear, we just got access to these places, think about it. six -- 1965, 1965, 15 black students were admitted to harvard law school. here we are in 2024, and 19 have been admitted. come on! so part of what we have to do is begin to unpack the motivation behind all of this, and it's not merit. it's about who has access to these elite institutions, to this social capital and why are

white men gaining access to these places in ways that they used to, so we need to be honest and stop dancing around the issue and say that this is a trojan horse, because when it comes to merit in terms of people donald trump is appointing, they sound like crickets, they don't give a . >> you have someone like ketanji brown jackson or justice sotomayor -- what we are learning about ukraine's boldest attack, the targeted killing of a top russian general, stay eted with us. with us.

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but aluminum-free secret whole body deodorant gives me 72 hour whole body freshness. for long layovers. surprise gate changes. and heavy luggage. and it's totally middle-seat approved. secret. no sweat. ukraine is taking responsibility for a brazen assassination just this morning. the dramatic and precise explosion in moscow that killed a russian general. he was accused of using prohibited chemical weapons against the ukrainian military. it's ukraine's most ambitious assassination since the invasion began nearly 3 years ago. everyday life has been affected for the ukrainian people. an estimated 5 million ukrainian children remain displaced or are now living

abroad. joined me now dr., cofounder of the ukraine children's project foundation. >> alicia, it's been very intense, it's our seventh time coming to the country, trying to get a handle on what's happening to ukraine's children. unfortunately the trauma that they are receiving, psychologically as well as physically, has been nonstop, and you know, from a pediatricians point of view, is very important that we find a way to get this war settled. in the meantime, other challenges remain including getting medical care to children

who are living in communities too close to the front lines, dealing with the psychological trauma that so many kids are experiencing, and that is one of the reasons we keep coming back. we've been raising a great deal of money, and trying to support programs that are helping children and families deal with educational disruptions, psychological trauma and other things, but yeah, it is pretty intense here, and yet the children, and we've seen a lot of kids who are very, very resilient, they are very positive about the future, they want to get on with their lives and careers and they will be part of the restoration and recovery of this country, once the war is over. but i have no doubt that ukraine's cultural integrity, it's academic and technical prowess will carry this democracy into the future, as long as we don't let this nation get overrun by the russians. this has been nonstop since february 2022, and it needs to

stop. >> you know, about a decade ago, i did a reporting project that took me to rwanda, to el salvador and jordan, looking at displaced children and one of the things, we talk often about the short-term impact, there's also a long-term impact -- impact to the states, if there's a gap, who is it that goes back and rebuilds these countries. talk about how you help these children get through the psychological trauma of what they have endured of being displaced but also making sure that that gap in education remains as small as possible? >> well, alicia, you put your finger on the major problem, that affects the present and the future of ukraine, you have children who have not been in school regularly now for almost 3 years, not to mention the fact that many schools are close, all the schools are closed, really, in ukraine because of covid before the war started, so we have children

that we've seen, seven, eight, nine years old, who have never been in a regular school situation, and we are working very closely, in fact we spoke with the ministry of education, and spoke to the first deputy minister of justice this very evening but the country needs to develop, with international help, long term strategies to help make up the lost educational trajectory that these kids are experiencing, and your point about you know, what you've seen in other crisis zones, it remains true to this day, and you know, you have kids who are living through a war that is prolonged, they are going to suffer and ultimately, the country, where the war is, will suffer because the future, which requires educated, ready to go, motivated children, will suffer, if education is

disrupted. it is a really, really bad problem and ultimately, we are calling this the war generation, here in ukraine, and you know, it's really up to the adults in the room, which means the family of nations, even though the world is chaotic now politically, in the united states, and much of europe, we have to get this war stopped, in a way, by the way, that secures ukraine's democracy , that makes sure it's not subject to an invasion again. >> thank you so much, doctor, for being with us and doing the work that you are doing. we will sneak in a uquick brea we will be right back. right ba. not to be dramatic, but i love my whole body deodorant. really? mine stinks. look. here. try secret whole body deodorant. it doesn't leave an icky residue.

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thanks for spending part of your tuesday with us. we are so grateful. "the