bunch of different venues across the country to pronote it. we booked a show in chicago not originally on the schedule but is now on the schedule. those details are hammered out and we will have more soon. plenty of other cities i will head to. scan the qr code here on the screen or go to website msnbc. com sirens' call to learn more and buy tickets. i am excited to see you all. see you out there. that's all in on this wednesday night. alex good evening. do you feel like you've been better at passenger attention since you've written book. >> i was writing about this. wish it were the case. >> but you are like hyperconscious of the fact you are not. >> yeah. >> excuse me, one second, hold on. >> it's just very hard. yes, i have. the short answer is i have. but it's not like there's some rubik's cube you solve and have it. >> that's not a spoiler. >> no. >> that's not a spoiler. i still as i said i bought six

copies of it. everyone seeing this segment should also buy sick comeies. >> at least. >> perfect holiday gift. thank you my friend. house speaker mike johnson is not having happy holiday season. right now, his job is to pass a bill to fund the government through the next -- for the first part of the next year in order to avoid a government shut down. and so just in time the speaker negotiated a bipartisan deal with democrats to do just that. but this evening, speaker johnson is facing a revolt from republicans in his own caucus. in his own conference. his people. and that revolt has derailed the entire deal. but johnson's republican conference is not the only one making his life very difficult. >> this is breaking news you could not know you know who also does not like this, elon musk. the world's richest man just tweeted this bill should not pass.

>> well, i was communicating with elon last night and vivek and i are on an it can chain and i was explaining the background and we talked until almost mid night and said we understand you are in an impossible position. everybody knows that. >> midnight text chain with vivek. don't you hate it when your friends act nice and subtweet you? i do. a few hours after shadow vice president-elect musk made his opinion trump came out against johnson's funding bill saying in a joint statement with actual vice president-elect jd vance republicans want to support farmers may for disaster and set the country up for success in 2025. the only way to do that is with a temporary funding bill without democratic giveaways combined with an increase in the debt ceiling. anything else is a betrayal of our country. donald trump is now officially against passing the funding bill that would avoid a government shut down four days

before christmas. trump wants johnson to throw out the deal that has been negotiated and to come up with a whole new bill. a bill that will magically unify the republican conference and pass without any democratic support even though the house republican majority has proven over and over again that they are incapable of doing anything without democratic help and he is adding a few requests and may have noticed in the stam i read that trump said he wants the funding bill to be combined with an increase in the debt ceiling. debt ceiling and bill to fund the government are two completely separate issues. congress has to pass the bill to fund the government by late friday night when the clock strikes midnight or the government will shut down. but congress doesn't have to raise the debt ceiling until sometime next year. so why is trump complicating this whole already complicated thing and demanding republicans

raise the debt ceiling right now? well, because he doesn't want to be responsible for raising debt ceiling in his administration. even though it is something that all but two presidents in the last 100 years have done. we know that's what trump is trying to do because he literally told everyone. this is from the same statement i just read. the most foolish and inept thing done by congressional republicans was allowing our country to hit the debt ceiling in 2025 increasing the debt ceiling is not great, but we'd rather do it on biden's watch. someone should probably tell trump that if he wants to make it look like raising the debt ceiling is not his idea he should probably not put explicit instructionses to raise the debt ceiling in a public statement. since trump came out against johnson he a funding bill, floodgates opened and members of trump's own party are using the moment to prove their

loyalty to him. tonight, senator joni ernst who has been under fire for waffle on pete hegseth's nomination released a christmas themed statement blasting johnson's bill. early santa came early with a christmas tree bill full of a whole lot of spending. congress deserves a lumch coal for failing to do its job and putting special interests ahead of taxpayers. jolly. the same time steve bannon is telling his followers that anyone who votes for this bill should be pry married. >> we got a man ramparts and light people up today. you cannot under any circumstances vote for this bill and you got to tell them flat out. we will gettureed of out and you are never going back to congress. >> tonight, bannon posted the video with caption mike johnson has got to go. and that's the other interesting turn of events here. republicans are now starting to call for the ouster of their

speaker of the house elon's text buddy, who has been deemed insufficiently loyal to the maga cause. which means another potentially very messy republican leadership fight just three weeks from now. in other words speaker mike johnson is in a bit of a bind here. it is worth noting however this is sort of all his own fault. since becoming speaker, johnson has repeatedly promised not to do anymore short-term funding bills only to realize short- term funding bills is the only way to keep government funded in the modern era. here is johnson after congress passed the last short-term funding bill in september. >> i want to assure everyone, and i said it multiple times we are not going to return to the christmas spending tradition. and that's a commitment i made to everyone. >> we are not going to return to the christmas omni bust spending tradition and that's a commitment i made to everyone.

a commitment that lasted approximately 84 days i don't have a watch. earlier tonight, democratic leader jeffries said if republicans shut down the government, democrats will make sure the american people know who is responsible. >> house republicans will now own any harm that is visited upon the american people that results from a government shut down or worse. >> joining me now is congresswoman jasmine crockett democratic texas million of the house oversight committee congresswoman, thank you for being here tonight. what is happening in the house of representatives? like, this was supposed to be just you know, an exercise and they will pass and it turned into an debacle with people calling for speaker johnson to be thrown out of the speaker's office.

how are democrats looking at this? >> listen, we are looking at this like this is their problem. we have seen this play out over and over in the entire two years i've been in congress. we know they had a problem picking a speaker when i got here and i thought since they held on to the speaker longer than they held onto mccarthy, i could go into january knowing that mike johnson would be the speaker. now they are calling for his ouster and remember, this is not like one of the most senior members, right, so basically, he had not burned enough bridges and so they had to go way, way down in seniority to find someone that they could come to a consensus on when they swear in in january, or when we all try to swear in in january, listen there's going to be less republicans than 118th right because the story has not really been told about how strongly house democrats performed while the republicans won the white house, and ended up picking up so many seats in the senate you know who lost seats? the house right. now should we have a speaker

jeffries, absolutely. north carolina didn't cheat and take away our seat we would and we wouldn't be in this situation. but here's deal. there's no fixing this without the democrats. we have seen this over and over. and i am just going to sit back and sip my tea and wait on them to figure it out. >> maybe sip something stronger. i am just saying it. hakeem jeffries you say he said house republicans have been ordered to shut down the government and break the bipartisan agreement and you own the consequences that follow. am i to understand from the statement democrats are willing to see republicans shut down the government and not bail them out? >> oh absolutely. i mean, you know, i take my lead from my actual leader. i don't work against him which is what mike johnson has to deal with all the time. you know, the lack of cohesiveness on that side is why this has been the most unproductive congress. people all over x and everybody

they don't deserve anything. let me tell you the people you keep putting in charge are the reason that we are are unproductive because they don't understand how to govern and honestly, they don't have a will to govern and the fact they are allowing someone who is a shadow president to come out and tell them what to do including donald trump, because listen, we know that elon as they have touted about how they need to get rid of the immigrants, let me be clear, elon can't become president of the united states because he is an immigrant who has gained u.s. citizenship later on in life. so he's not qualified to be or he's not allowed to be on constitution. so instead he decided to buy a president and right now he is pulling all the strings on trump. but i think that it's funny they want to talk about money and talk about what we are spending it on, but i have yet to hear him and vivek or any of them will say we know it will be a conflict of interest, if we continue to take the millions and millions of dollars from the federal government we normally receive. so we are not going to do that

while also making decisions about what to do on the budget for the federal government. >> do you, i mean, i guess the question is, it's chaos, right. the car guy, the rocket guy is now dictating legislative priorities scuttling bills in the house of representatives that could shut down the government. >> yep. >> and the speaker who is elected after a lot of back and forth inside the house republican conference could be on his way out in three weeks. the question i guess is, do you worry as democrats, that what might come after mike johnson could be potentially worse than what you have now? >> i don't think it can get any worse. here's the deal. we thought that mike johnson was even worse than mccarthy, and mike johnson had had to realize to get anything done he had to come and talk to us. listen, if of they want to be successful, then all they have to do is come together as a caucus. but the reality is that you've got bomb throwers. you don't have a unified

caucus. and they are going to have a one seat majority. what does that mown? they will have 217 people while we have 215 on democratic side and that moons they lose one vote. if one person because you have to have a majority if it's 216- 216 it fails. let me tell you this quote, unquote mandate that maga thinks exist ain't going nowhere because they can't do the basics. we have passed the least amount of bills in the congress because of the republicans and remind -- let me remind you you brought up the debt ceiling. remember why the last speaker got kicked out? it was because he raised the debt ceiling and all of it and trump was the one calling for his head. now he is like raise the debt ceiling because trump tax cuts this con he has right that helps out all the billionaires he is putting into his administration or at least is hoping to put into the administration those trump tax cuts they expire in 2025. mind you he is the only president we have had that in

one term ran our debt up to 8 trillion dollars. so he already knows. he's about to run the debt up so he doesn't want to have to deal with the debt ceiling, and instead he wants us to do it. i ain't got no favors for you trump. when you get here yes, you will have the house and senate as well as white house and you can see if you can figure it out. but right now, i am not trying to shut down the government because let me tell you when are democrat republican independent traveling over the holidays you may end up with problems because tsa is federal government those doing air traffic control, that's federal government. and if you are concerned about the border let me tell you, that is also federal government officers and so, yes, if you are concerned about our international security, guess what, our military personnel will not get paid. all because you don't want to help out those that need help as relates to seniors. don't want to help out farmers or veterans. these are the things we are in the bill. and for those that want to talk about a cola, let me tell you there's no language about the cola so stop saying there's a

40% increase. it is actually silent and you know why, there's law in place because in exchange for a cola that we give out to our staffers all the time, you know what we had to give up, hon rare iums and beingable to work on the side. but you know what we also have to do, is we have to pay for a house in the district we live in as well as we have to pay for housing in d.c. >> that's reality of the pay raise or i think you are using official legislative terms for it that was in the bill. >> cola. >> that's just been killed by elon musk donald trump maybe even jd vance i am not sure there's so many cooks in the kitchen. jasmine crockett with a few thoughts and feelings what's happening in the house of representatives. thank you so much for breaking it down for us. it's great to have you on the show. >> absolutely. >> i am now joined by dan fifer

cohost of pod save american. dan, we are all watching the dumpster catch fire once again. but somehow the flames seem even more spectacular and brighter and hotter than they were before. donald trump is presumed to have a mandate and presumed to be able to control republican conference and have them do his bidding. tonight it seems like there are going to be problems along the way. what do you make what have we are seeing unfold on the hill right now. >> first, this is a preview of what government is going to look like under donald trump many starting january 20th, 2025. pure chaos, government by tweet, shadow president elon musting with no knowledge of what he is talking about firing off a tweet and then up ending you know bipartisan deal. pure chaos out there. and so that's one. two, i think donald trump is trying to do something that seems almost quasi strategic which is to get the dent

ceiling raised. no democrat should vote for a debt ceiling increase. the problem as congresswoman crockett pointed out republicans have the house, senate and white house coming up. and therefore, this is their job to do and they should do it next year. >> do you -- what should the democratic posture. jasmine crockett according to leader jeffries calling the plays here. they are not going to help republicans. does that concern you at all this we could be barreling towards a government shut down as she outlines ahead of the holiday season where you will have tsa workers not getting paid, faa all the infrastructure for holiday travel for example is on the government dime that could you know they might not be getting paid is there political risk in that. >> well, the for the referee pub cans reasons the government shut down a bipartisan deal that would have gotten plenty of votes from the democrats more than enough to pass. would have been able to pass the senate. elon musk and donald trump killed the bill and so now, and

they are demanding democrats do something for donald trump in exchange for nothing. so this will be on them. look, government shut down is bad and real people get hurt but democrats jeffries and jasmine crockett don't have the power to bring the bill to the house. only mike johnson can do that. if he is unwilling or doesn't do that he and donald trump and elon musk will own it. >> i agree this is a test case for like what the next four years might look like. it is also kind of a softer test how hard core the democratic coalition is willing to be. and i wonder we have some writing in the "new york times" that suggest democrats should really get on the front foot with the war footing. democrats may be in the minority but not opposition. what's the difference opposition use every opportunity it had to demonstrate its resolute stance

against the incoming administration. do you think that should happen? do you think it can happen? i will note, as a kind of indicator where the party is at, the oversight committee chair is injury connally, he is 77 and he was contested for alexandria ocasio cortez who is engage in the back and forth on partisan politics. do you read anything to that decision as it concerns democrats and how aggressive they will be? >> i find that decision to be absolutely bananas. just. >> bananas in a bad way. >> bananas in bad way. absolute bad way. the position that you need the best messenger is the ranking member of the oversight committee where the most attention is and it's going to be where republicans are doing the most dangerous stuff to try to enact revenge campaign on political enemies. aoc is the one of the best

indicators and few people who has the ability to get attention to get people who do not pay attention to politics every minute of the day to pay attention. she knows how to communicate in this modern world. to give it to congressman connally a very able congressman is misunderstanding how politics works in this era. attention is power, and aoc can get attention and i found that decision to be like confounding just that's alarming. it is alarming to me we don't tuley understand why we lost and what we have to do to do going forward. >> do you worry about the fact we have a reporting in punch poll jd vance is heading to the hill to speak with speaker johnson. do you have a thought what he happening with musk and vance and the roles they are playing in terms of advying the president and how you are reading that situation? >> yeah for all intense and purpose, elon musk is at worst

vice president. and potentially copresident. i haven't seen jz vance and haven't heard from him. he spends his time mostly on twitter and has very little influence and can't up end the bill the way elon musk did. he is heading to the hill but he is not the second most powerful person in the administration. >> they are thinking stick to the cars but stay out of our hair. thanks for making the time. coming up, there is a big problem with shadow vice president musk. and shadow vice president musk's top secret security clearance. i will speak to the "new york times" reporter with new bombshell reporting on musk issues. first, the president-elect spent the day ramping up attacks on political enemies. the great andrew weissman discusses whether any of it

holds up in court. that's next. it holds up in court. that's next.

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last night at 3:00 a.m. president-elect trump threatened former republican congresswoman liz cheney. on truth social trump claimed republican led investigation into the house january 6th committee obtained evidence

that cheney allegedly broke numerous federal laws. trump went onto say that those quote, unquote violations should be investigated by the fbi. now trump didn't elaborate what laws liz cheney may have broke by cited sources republican congressman bury lauder milk and news max host greg kelly. and last night on news max we got more specifics. trump and his republican allies claim that cheney may have engaged in witness tampering. which would be a significant allegation if there were any merit to it. so far it seems, there is not. here is what they are alleging. you probably remember white house aide cassidy hutchinson's testimony to the january 6th committee. she spoke about trump throwing a plate against a wall when attorney general bill barr made a public statement that he hadn't found evidence of election fraud in the 2020 election. and hutchinson is how we learned about the alleged incident in trump's suv where trump allegedly lunged at the secret service agent driving

the car when the agent refused to take trump to the capitol so comarch with his supporters. and his dramatic as hutchinson's testimony was in front of the cameras, battle over hutchinson's testimony behind closed doors was even more dramatic. initially, trump world set her up with white house lawyer stefan passantino to represent him he maintains he ever provided hutchinson with ethical legal advice, but hutchinson told the january 6th committee that he tried to influence her testimony. allegedly telling her things like, we just want to focus on protecting the president. and, we all know you're loyal. hutchhitchinson claims he urged her not to compile a timeline of events. ultimately hutchinson dropped him and got a new lawyer and gave the jaw dropping testimony

we remember. that is the real story of potential witness tampering in cassidy hutchinson's testimony. a trump world lawyer allegedly trying to influence cassidy hutchinson to protect donald trump. but somehow trump and coper is have ative allies are looking at through a fun house mior to claim liz cheney was the one doing the witness tampering. >> but, what we are looking at is why did she change her testimony, what was the catalyst that made her change her testimony and it was the back channel communications with liz cheney that happened around that time. >> as comically backward as the logic is in the allegations, trump's threat against cheney is still very real. and trump's strategy is not about logic or facts necessarily. it is about bullying people less powerful than he is. let me show you what i mean. knit mid-2000 trump sued a journalist who claim he was not

a billionaire. a judge tossed the case because it was meritless but trump viewed that lawsuit as a win. trump told the washington post that he knew he couldn't win the suit but brought it anyway to make a point. i spent a couple bucks on legal fees and they spent a whole lot more. i did it to make his life miserable which i am happy about. trump said that everyone from liz cheney to kamala harris needs to be prosecuted. by npr's account he made more than 100 threats to prosecute or punish perceived enemies and in all of those cases, the facts are beside the point. for decades now, trump has used his deep pockets to bully his enemies and force them to pay legal fees even if they did nothing wrong. but starting on january 20th, trump will again have the full weight of the federal government on his side. so how should the people in trump's cross hairs be preparing for the fights ahead? and are there anyways for them

to fight back. andrew weissman joins me to discuss all that next. me to discuss all that next.

tonight, i say this to my republican colleagues, who are defending the indefensible, there will come a day when donald trump is gone. but your dishonor will remain. >> that was former congresswoman liz cheney speak on behalf of the january 6th select committee in 2022. two years later trump is here

trying to punish cheney for speaking out. in addition to saying he would like to see the select committee jailed, trump is pushing baseless claims cheney broke laws. and trump floats idea of pardoning january 6th rioters including stewart rhodes. joining me is former fbi general council andrew weissman. it's been way too long. >> yes. >> thanks for returning. the allegations against liz cheney that she engaged in witness tampering, what's your reaction to that? >> so, like you, i am waiting to find any facts that show that. if there were facts, you know, have at it. but right now, we are still in the phase of what appears to be law fair and your point it's the accusation and the fear that sort engendered whether it's this or going after des moines register. it's fact of the lawsuits. and many ways, i am interested

to see whether they will be smart about this or not. because when you think about how donald trump has fared in the courts let's leave the supreme court out of it, but if you look at e jean carroll case he lost twice. the new york attorney general, he lost that at trial. and if you look at one criminal case that went forward where the proof had to be beyond a reasonable doubt and unanimous jury, he lost that. rudy giuliani lost his case against shea freeman and ruby freeman and shea moss. so, you have litany of losses that of course going back to fraud in the election where it was almost a sweep. so, in many ways, the idea that they actually are going to be seeking an indictment or a several case against liz cheney and january 6th committee, we have spent years with donald trump trying to avoid the

january 6th trial. >> yeah. >> so, you know, think a lot of this will be remains to be seen whether they really want that trial or whether they want as you pointed, the fear of the brush back of bringing the lawsuit. >> chilling effects. >> exactly. >> converse warming effect if he pardons someone like stuart rhodes a suggestion that you fight for trump, you are going to get off the hook. >> that in many ways is even worse because that is like we do have someone about to become president with 34 felony convictions. and so, it shouldn't be surprising that he is running on sort of lawlessness. and, the idea of pardoning not just the lower level of january 6th people who trespassed, that's bad enough because it was not like a trespass with the purpose,. >> they weren't at the museum

late night. >> exactly. couldn't have put it better. >> new york reference. >> exactly. but, to be serious we are talking about people who you know deliberately injured not just the democracy, but actual law enforcement officers who still have trauma over that. and they said the very last people that you would think would deserve of a pardon. and so, to me, it instills the idea of that the country, the thing that makes us sort of a civilized society. >> yeah. >> is undermined. >> i mean, given the sort of stakes in all of this, these are not individual cases but they are representative of a larger atry if i or strength enings of the institutions. how do you feel about preemptive pardons. there's huge debate whether biden should issue preemptive pardons to those -- names have

been floating. >> leaving me aside and thinking about people who were on the january 6th committee, the jack smith team, alvin bragg team people who work in government many of whom not where thee are not kelly and i don't think it's a preemptive pardon but protective for people who have been directly targeted. and i am concerned about them. and i am concerned about the next people who are going to be the next people who are called onto do their duty. i keep on thinking about senator mitt romney saying there were people in the senate who did not vote to convict in the impeachment because they were afraid. and you don't want that for the next alvin bragg and jack smith and next liz cheneys. and so i think it's a tough call. i think it's a tough call on terms who you decide to pardon.

and then, i think very separate issue is individualized one about whether people should accept the pardon and cheney or alvin bragg or jack smith should and that's an individual call. i don't think there's anything that i can say sort in terms what have they should do. >> that's their personal decision. >> how did you feel? >> i didn't do anything wrong. i feel like this is horrible. i think about this in terms of the country, and in terms of the fact we are sitting at this table having this conversation. and covering stories about people using the legal system to undermined the rule of law, which is an irony to nd all ironies for someone who is a lawyer who worked for the department of justice but a defense lawyer for 30 years. >> well, we will naivegate gate it together. >> yes. >> thank you for your time and thoughts and all you do. andrew weissman great to see you.

still to come, he is the richest man in the world and has the ear of the incoming president. but he also maybe a national security risk. we are going to get details on reported investigation into elon musk. but first, bad news for former republican congressman matt gaetz. that's next. er republican congressman matt gaetz. that's next.

autumn is here, and leaves are falling. any gutter open to the elements is going to collect leaves, acorns you name it. and cleaning your gutters can be a real challenge. but just one call to leaffilter, and the problem's solved. it wasn't just that leaffilter cleaned our gutters and guaranteed that they'd stay clog free. but it was more they saved us the energy of having to think about cleaning them. we go to great heights, so you don't have to. call 833 leaffilter today, or visit leaffilter.com the house ethics committee is about to let loose a little chaos as soon as the house of represent testifies takes the last vote of the 118th

congress. nbc news confirmed that the committee is planning to release its long awaited report into allegations against former florida republican congressman matt gaetz. according to two sources familiar with the process, the committee took secret vote to release it. it is a surprising reversal after the committee voted last month not to share details of its investigation into allegations of gaetz misconduct. gaetz for his part, continues to deny any wrongdoing. joining me now is michael schmidt investigative reporter for "new york times" and msnbc national security contributor this thanks for being here. i think we are surprised by this. do you have expectations for the report? it looked at range of issues. how he used funds government funds and whether they were used towards activities they weren't supposed to. it looked at the allegations about the women, whether the allegations were true that he had had sex with a 17-year-old in exchange for money.

whether he had sex with other women. and the committee, you know, it was a few weeks ago we reported on this, the committee had obtained a lot of different documentation, and testimony from key people that were in the room when these incidents allegedly happened. and the thing you have to remember about gaetz is gaetz was never charged. the only stuff that we know about gaetz comes from the case of joel greenberg the florida local tax collector who pled guilty, some statements made in relation to his case. but we never saw an indictment of gaetz because he was never charged. we were never given an explanation by the department were he was not charged. what you have in this document is probably the most authoritative report on matt gaetz' conduct ever created. all we know about matt gaetz is a lot base on news paper stories, based on stuff dating back to 2021 when we first

wrote about his investigation. so this would be a lot of different allegations about gaetz and his conduct when he was in, you know alleged to have done these things when he was in the house in 2017 when he was in the house. and that could be pretty damaging to him. now, maybe damaging in a classical sense of damaging. not in a trumpian. >> not contemporary sense. >> the classical sense. so, what that means for matt gaetz. the thing i think about with matt gaetz after he say he was not going to try to become attorney general he said maybe i will be a special counselor. biden administration has gone going on and on about how you don't need to be senate confirmed to be a special counselor. so someone like matt gaetz could get more accomplished for donald trump as a special counselor. >> and oan one american news host and special counselor. >> and cameo the cameo where

you record messages from. >> for money. >> yeah. >> he does that or he did that. >> bears mentioning this report seemed to -- i don't know if it was central but played a role in all the machinations around gaetz maybe even securing the attorney general pick from trump right? there was vaping timing concerning the report was set to be released, then all of a sudden, trump makes a decision on air force one taking a ride with matt gaetz he is going to announce matt gaetz ace his pick for attorney general. >> and than they don't vote to release it. >> exactly. >> we are in a different matt gaetz political world today than at that time. because he's not -- he is no longer nominee to be the attorney general. >> but some people read into the sort of flurry of action that prevented the report from being released as evidence that matt gaetz really didn't want the reports to come out. >> yeah and. >> and we have no idea if -- that's true or not. but matt gaetz has been in his

opposition to the allegations, and his desire to have the thing released. >> it would be quite, you know, people think trump and his folks are playing eight dimensional chess. at the end of the day matt gaetz is not the nominee and now the report is coming out. >> how do you read the committee's reversal on this? >> i don't know. i mean, matt gaetz doesn't have lot of friends on both sides of the aisle. there is a lot of loyalty to donald trump, but matt gaetz is no longer the nominee. so there's less incentive to protect that nominee than there was before. >> so you think it's about matt gaetz and not donald trump. >> well, everything is about donald trump. >> truer words never spoke. thank for joining me. great to see you. >> thanks for having me. new reports about pentagon vations to shadow vice president elon musk. more on that after the break. stay with us. after the break. stay with us.

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new reporting from the "new york times" reveals the pentagon has reportedly opened multiple investigations into elon musk and his rocket company spacex which is a major government contractor. according to the times, defense department officials are reviewing whether or not musk violated federal disclosure requirements meant to protect state secrets. it appears musk and his team raised red flags by failing to provide details of his travel and meetings with foreign leaders. a former cia official and lawyer who works on security clearances told the times, if you don't self-report the question is why didn't you. and what are you trying to hide. joining me is investigative business reporter at new york times and lead by line on the reporting. thanks for joining me. can you walk us through how did we know about all of this?

>> well, it's incredibly hard reporting as you can imagine. but what my colleagues and i basically uncovered is that look, spacex is a major government contractor. they have billions in contracts. and if you just pay attention to elon musk's x feed you can tell he is not the usual defense contractor, right. so, we have been hearing from various corners from people with knowledge of spacex, from the government agencies, from worldwide governments even, that here's this person who is essentially a wild card, and is he living up to these very strict national security rules. so that's kind of how we got on the subject. >> do you feel like -- first some of this musk lost the confidence of some of the very people working for him is that right? >> that's right. i mean, you can always tell when something is wrong when

the employees who are working on the very issues so reporting to the government on on behalf of elon musk is complaining the important rules are being broken. that's always a major warning sign. >> what, i mean, what are the potential repercussions here? i mean, trump in his incoming administration, could still offer musk a security clearance anyway, right despite the red flags? >> he absolutely could. you know, it's setting up this extremely major can have flick of interest. really the biggest one yet, so he is in there in the trump transition administration, basically acting as shadow president, and now we have all these government departments who are separately worried about him and spacex and whether he can handle sensitive statement secrets. so, it's going to be interesting how this plays out, because these government departments are worried that he, as the head of the new cost

cutting agency will suddenly come in and cut their departments if they go after him, right. so, it is setting up this really interesting showdown that we have obviously never seen before. >> do you have a sense of the breath of the investigations that are being conducted right now? >> so, there really reviews at this point. and our understanding is a lot of them are really still in the initial phases, and during the phases, they will go out and talk to a lot of people. they will likely talk to spacex employees and executives and it's really like a fact-finding mission. but what we really found through our investigation is that they have been flouting the very important strict rules for years. and just to be clear, this is not like, you know, forgetting to file like a check or a paperwork. this is, you know, these checks and balances that really exist to protect the u.s. state

secrets. >> well, right, and this is an ongoing concern because we have reporting tonight through the week that elon musk is sitting in on calls with foreign leaders at the same time that he has massive lucrative government contracts and top secret classified clearance is that right? >> that's absolutely right. and that's exactly why everyone is concerned. his foreign leader meetings, it's unclear really which details of the conversations, if any, have been reported to the defense department. or any of spacex's government customers, and another issue we looked at is he has said himself that he uses ketamine. well that's something you absolutely have to report to the government. and he did not do that at the time. when he said that in 2023. so there's all these kinds of red flags that indicate you know, he could -- he could be a risk. that's what everyone is worried about. >> elon musk responded to this story on x saying deep state

traders are coming after me using their paid chills shills and legacy media. what's your reaction to that. >> well, i had a variety of reactions to my reporting on elon musk over years. i haven't had that one yet. we, of course, go to hill in advance and his people and never hear anything so we always welcome any kind of a response from him. >> okay. kirsten grind with the "new york times" essential reporting thanks for doing it and thanks for coming on the show to talk about it. really appreciate it. >> thanks so much for having me. that's the show for this evening, way too early with jonathan lemire is coming up next. jonathan lemire is coming up next. lemire" is coming up next. >> this is absurd. and what we have here is a bipartisan deal that mike johnson, the speaker of the house negotiated, and brought to