live at msnbc headquarters in new york city. it is one big holiday headache for congress and the country. republicans now with just a few hours left to come up with a deal, to keep the government funded and the lights on and no clear paths to get everyone, including president-elect trump on the same page. twice they failed. so, will the third time be the charm? we'll talk to one republican who has been huddling with speaker mike johnson. and we'll big into the multi-billion dollars ripple effect from a shun, shutting down parks and forcing our troops to go without pay and the longer it goes on and the worse it gets. a reality check. and the u.s. takes out an isis leader in syria, part of an aggressive effort to wipe out terrorists including 8,000 that had been imprisoned under bashar al assad. so how to steer syria in a new

direction now that he's gone. so much to get to on this friday. but we start with the nightmare before christmas. the federal government barreling toward a shut down one minute after midnight and republicans have settled on a plan to keep that happening while acknowledging things are still very fluid. according to nbc news, the current thinking is that they split the bill in three parts and leave the debt limit out even though president-elect trump and elon musk insist they want it in the bill. all of this after plan b, one backed by trump and leadership blew up in their face. in the end, even 38 republicans voted against that plan. most of them hard core conservatives including chip roy who tore into his colleagues for bringing the bill to the floor. >> i'm absolutely sickened by a party that campaigns on fiscal responsibility and has the temerity to go forward to the american people and say you think this is fiscally

responsible. >> i just voted tonight against the terrible spending bill that would barrow $115 billion. we couldn't get a paid for amendment. at some point the debt and the deficit has to matter. >> it shouldn't come down to this. a gun is to our head but the gun is to the head of american people of mortgaging our future and you shouldn't be in that position. >> that position, a clear act of defiance, donald trump supported the bill and he fired back. warning congressman roy, who he called an ambitious no talent and others like him, that they will face primary challenges. and now political reports speaker johnson and the president-elect are talking about the pros and cons of just letting a shun happen despite the fact that it would force millions of federal employees including members of the military to go without a paycheck right before the holidays. i want to bring in ali vitali and jonathan capehart is from

"the washington post" and an msnbc host and carlos cabello, from florida and an msnbc political analyst. happy holidays, all. house republicans have been huddling on this new plan. where did things stand with, what, 11 hours to go. >> well it is never usually a good sign when i come live to you from this hallway that is leading to the area where republicans often do their group huddles at the inflection point of major decisions and this is one of those infliction points. because in talking to members of the republican party, that voted against the bill that was an owe the floor yesterday, they spent hours huddle withed the speaker, including this morning, and it appears they've come out with a plan that could be palatable because it pulled apart the entiring continuing resolution into even smaller pieces than the one that we saw on the floor yesterday. specifically, it allows members, if they decide to pursue this

strategy, to vote on this bill in three parts. the first, just simply funds government until the middle of march. the other piece is on disaster funding. the third piece of is then is on farm bill extensions and things related to agriculture and farmers. and that means that the only thing that trump and musk really demanded and introduced themselves into this larger funding conversation is the debt ceiling and the debt limit. that is now nowhere in this plan is our understanding and that is exactly what republicans at this point are discussing. then we talk about democrats who are largely been blocked from this process ever since the original bipartisan deal itself blew up. but here is how speaker jeffries told it to reporter this is morning. >> the lines of communication have been reopened. >> and that is a positive step and things are in a good direction. >> we're going to work as hard as we can to avoid a republican driven government shutdown.

>> how would you feel about splitting the bill up into pieces like ukraine. >> it is not a proposal presented to me at this point in time. >> reporter: here is why it's important that jeffries said the lines of communication are reopened. because it is a shift in posture from where democrats were yesterday where they were saying you break it and you're going to fix it and have you to do it on your own. typically when they do funding bills like this, they have to do it in bipartisan fashion because when the margins where they are for republicans, there are always consistently enough republicans who never vote for this kind of a funding deal. that is why republicans usually look over at democrats. they create bipartisan solutions like the one they started the week with and that is it is such a big problem when it blew up. not because republicans weren't negotiating in full faith, that is a lingering tension, but it was also a sign that democrats were going to get rolled on something that they have planned

to go ahead and be a part of in bipartisan fashion, initially. >> so that brings me back to the republicans, because these weren't moderate republicans who sank the bill last night. it was conservatives who typically vote with trump. i mean, you have andy biggs, nancy mace, paul gosar and bob good. are you surprised how this is been playing out at all? >> it is not really that surprising, because these are the same republicans who have been a thorn on speaker johnson's side. speaker mccarthy's side. ryan and ehner before that. so this is a normal dynamic in the republican party which is why to ali's point, republicans need democratic votes in order to do big things like fund the government and raise the debt ceiling. now, there is a disonnence in what musk and trump were asking the republicans to do. musk and trump, especially musk have been talking about deficits and debt. and yet, they asked these republicans to essentially ignore the debt ceiling, the country's debt for two years and

some of these members are actually very principled and they're just not going to do that. and by the way, i think another miscalculation, chris, the margins, if chip roy, if donald trump is going to make chip roy an enemy, you could find two or three friends in the next congress, could really bring the entire republican agenda to a halt. >> so jonathan, this was a clear loss, right, for trump, at least this last round. and now it appears that republicans are trying to move forward without a key provision that he has wanted. let's remind people here is what he posted last night. congress must get rid of or extend out to 20299 ridiculous debt ceiling. without this, we should never make a deal. but i wonder if what we've seen, at least so far, tells us, maybe donald trump doesn't have the kind of iron grip on congress that a lot of people suppose he has. >> yes, that is one way of

reading it. especially since plan b, after the bipartisan bill was blown up, and plan b which was more than a thousand pages, and then the plan b proposal was about 116 pages. with the debt ceiling thing in there that donald trump asked for, that elon musk asked for. and it wasn't that one or two republicans voted against it. it was 38 republicans who voted against it. so, yeah, it is a rebuke to president-elect trump. it shows perhaps maybe the limits he -- the limits to his grip on the republican conference. but, you know, look, i've seen many variations of this movie before. you cannot take the vote on plan b and the way republicans abandoned trump on that vote to be some sign, some cosmic sign that they're going to show some independence, that they're going to show a spine in pushing back

against soon to be president trump. the idea, chris, that they're pulling this apparently apart into three or four separate bills to me said that they're just looking to -- they're willing to prolong the pain. because there is no guarantee, there is no guarantee that any of these bills will pass on their own. and i wonder if, you know, passage of one is contingent on the other. i look forward to hearing what the house democrats have to say about any of this. >> so ali, we talk about the politics of denying donald trump and elon musk. they have not been shy saying you better stick with us. so do the 38 folks think there wouldn't be any repercussions or what is going on here? >> maybe there is a few different pieces of it -- >> [ inaudible ]. >> i think that is right. but a lot of these 38

republicans are probably being the most consistent people in this building because many are the same ones that never vote for this kind of legislation in the first place. and so it is sort of an instance of the more things change, the more they stay the same. it is not shocking to me that trump would be lashing out at someone like chip roy, not because of chip roy's position on this, because, again, this is chip roy actually being very predictable. he makes speeches like the one you played at the top of the show, on a near weekly basis here. this is one of his key issues that he's been fighting for since he got to this building is fiscal responsibility. it is not shocking that trump would go after him, it was that roy was once a desantis backer during the 2024 primary. that is something that urks the now president-elect and it makes sense why he would be more willing to lash out at someone like roy. but the other piece of this, too, is if you're only going to

issue primary challenges to people, who might have a difference of opinion than you do, they're within your party, you have to find someone to run against them and be sure that you could beat them otherwise you have people who have an ax to grind against you and you could only issue that threat so many times and so it definitely hit hard here on capitol hill when elon musk started his twitter campaign of telling any member that votes for a version of the bill that is not trump backed that they should be primaried. members heard that and took that seriously. but there is also the piece of that, that their margins are so thin, if they put 30 some odd races on the board, maybe you come out with a majority of them staying republicans and maybe the republicans stay loyal to trust in the future, but when you put up some of the districts that could be more toss ups and democrats manage to eke out one one.

that could throw this entire place in flux. and that is one of the things that trump and other republicans need to keep in mind. the house dynamics are not just fragile for speaker johnson, but for everyone across the board. >> punch bowl treated this today. the republicans can't or won't do this on their own. i wonder just in terms of a narrative, if a shutdown does happen -- i see ali vitali is trying to grab someone there. are you able to get him. >> i am able to get him, chris. actually. we have congressman dusty johnson here with us, of course. you just left the meeting where we're live with chris jansing. what happened? >> this is not old d.c. or one guy or one gal gets to call the

shot. this is a collaborate environment with a lot of people with a lot of opinions. so the speaker is talking through a varity of options and the conference is trying to come together and figure out which tactic is the best chance of getting done what we want to get done. here is what i know. in the end result, we are not going to shut down government. we are going to cut rillion dollars and we're going to take care of border and cutting ridiculous regulations. it is going to be messy to get all of that done. and we're trying to figure out what is the right way to sequence it. >> you make it sound easy but the how has been vexing for republicans here. is our understanding right, that you're at the process of trying to pull this apart and do three separate votes and that the debt ceiling is not part of it any more? >> listen, there are a variety of options. speak ser not telling people how it is going to be. he's giving them some options and talking with the team about what is the best way to proceed. keep in mind, this is our

founders broke power into a lot of different corners on purpose. so just because house republicans make a decision, doesn't mean a lot. you have an incoming and outgoing white house and senate and house and republicans and democrats. that is why this is messy. this is not a flaw. this is a design aspect of the constitution. but we are getting closer. i didn't mean to make it sound easy. because it is always harder than i want it to be. >> but do you think there will be a vote tonight, or is the government doing to shut down. >> there may be a technical shutdown over the course of the weekend or the evening. those don't mean anything. nobody gets furloughed. nothing would happen if there was a few hour lapse. it would be unfortunate if we have a lengthy shutdown and getting out of a shutdown is hard. >> and for people around this building, i've had employees say to me do you know if we're

getting our paychecks. this is personal for a lot of people. we've seen you shuttle in and out of the speaker office. is it the debt ceiling, if there is one thing to overcome here, what is it. >> i wish there was one sticking point. but you have two different white houses you're dealing with. everyone has a different sticking point. >> and ali, can i jump in. i'm going to be your translator. chris, please. >> majory taylor green posted on x that the governmentcould shutdown until january 20th. is that a reality that congressman johnson thinks republicans are willing to accept that, that members of the military don't get paid, that sem workers have to work but don't get paid. congress does get paid though, is that a good look?

>> yeah, chris is making a pount here. that you have colleagues of yours like marjorie taylor green that said leave the government shutdown but it means people in this building wouldn't get their paycheck. are you comfortable with that. >> i said we shouldn't be shutting down the government. if it was a tactic that works. if it was the kind of thing that we could use effectively to get rid of this ridiculous $2 trillion deficit that we're running, then would you say shut it down too. but the reality is it hurts real people and it also doesn't work. shutdowns have never been a meaningful tool for leverage. so we have to be big boys and big girls. we do need to transform how we spend money in this town. we do need to avoid some of the dumpster fire fiscal cliff tactics. we're trying to get done in that room as a team. >> where is trump in this right now. >> trump is really involved in making sure we get the right thing done. i get it. he has a different way of doing

business. that makes some people uncomfortable. the reality is he's a force of nature. now it is at times a disruptive force of nature. absolutely. but business as usual is not working particularly well. the country has not been doing great with regard to spending in the last 40 years, we have run up deficits that are unacceptable. and he's going to roll in with tactics and taken as a whole they're going to be good in getting this country back on the right track. >> i've got one more from chris. >> does he think elon musk has a place in these negotiations? >> does elon musk have a place in these negotiations. >> you have someone who is a brilliant disruptor and innovator, that is a voice willing to hear from. we should be willing to hear from. does anybody here work for elon musk? no. >> do you think he knows that. >> >> we work for the constitution and the citizens who send us here and elon musk,

i want the input from my american who thinks they know how to build a better mouse trap. we'll be better because of the ideas that elon and vivek have. but it is brainstorming and not every idea is a brainstorming. >> maybe we don't brainstorm on a government shutdown clock. >> my observation is that deadlines are the only thing that drives achievement in this town. i understand people are uncomfortable with the deadline. but you know what, if we did our work a month ago, or six months ago, or ten years ago, we wouldn't be in such an uncomfortable position today. >> congressman dusty johnson, thank you and to the capitol hill press corp who has been so patiently waiting. >> thank you for jumping in there. >> i want to give jonathan and carlos a opportunity to respond to this. and jonathan, coy see you. and you were shaking your head through much of ali's interview. so go ahead. >> so i was listening to congressman johnson and it was good to hear him sound rational

about what was happening. and initially it sounded like, when he said, you know, we're going to do everything we can to secure the border and cut regulation and bring down the deficits. that is great if you're negotiating a -- in regular order, the federal budget. but that is not what is happening now. they are voting on a continuing resolution to keep the government open into the next -- the early days of the next administration so that the lights don't get turned off in this town. so that paychecks continue to go out. so that airports still have tsas that people can travel safely. i don't -- i am no more confident after listening to congressman johnson about there not being a government shutdown than i am now. whichever -- >> carlos, are you any more confident? >> look, i think that they will find a way out of a shutdown.

there are enough pragmatic members in the house and both parties. >> in the next 10 hours and 40 minutes? >> it will probably be a clean cr. a very simple extension of government funding. i think separating the bills is what makes most sense at this time. but, chris, let me add one thing, what is on full display here is the difference between the business world and the political world. donald trump and elon musk, they're used to sitting in their offices and telling people at the trump organization, at tesla and x what they have to do and they don't get any resistance. government is a different business. this is a co-equal branch of government they are dealing with. every single member has the same power, one vote on the floor. and if they want to get things done, the next two to four years, they better figure that out real soon. this first experiment here has failed. >> ali, i've been told to wrap. and normally i would listen, but

i have to give your final thoughts. are you any more convinced one way or another after the interview with dusty johnson? >> i'm less convinced for two reasons. quickly for the control room. he's the first person to admit there could be a technical shutdown. the second is the plan that we thought that they had that seemed pretty firm according to my conversations and others on our team, that plan doesn't actually seem very firm at all. it seems actually like a live ball in that room behind us. that doesn't give me more confidence, it gives me less because it means more options are on the table and no one knows what they're driving toward. >> you'll stay close as the developments continue. thank you to all of you. so, how would a government shutdown affect you? from holiday travel to package deliveries, to military pay. we're breaking it all down in just 90 seconds. s.

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our litary and reservists and others before the holidays. meaning they have to work but won't get paid, including troops overseas and here at home. hundreds of government shutdown workers could be furloughed and the tsa agents and air traffic controllers, they would still be on the job. or they're supposed to be. officials are arning ever potential delays. i want to bring in christine romans. a lot of people flying. you just looked aup up fascinat information. tsa employees are told to show up but not getting paid right now. so -- >> we've seen this on 2019. on the worst day in 2019. 7.5% of workers didn't show up at tsa. that meant they have to close lanes and cues, so it was a real world impact even though they were essential workers.

>> aren't a lot more people flying now. >> there are more people flying now than in 2019. so you're right. it is a problem for flyers even though there is supposed to be some buffer there. we talked to johnny jones who works at air traffic and he said the majority of our rank and file live paycheck to paycheck but it is the holidays so these guys have spent their savings buying christmas gifts xg the politics are going to be the real grinches around here. and you heard them talk about a technical shutdown. it is not technical for a person that has a pay period that ends on january 3rd. >> what is the real world cost here. >> it could be $6 billion a week. >> $6 billion. >> and depending on how long it would last. it would trim a little bit off of gdp. over times these things have become a feature not a bug of the american law making, but they're disruptive and they cost money and they cost money to

american families. contractors, government workers, furloughed workers, and works who will get a back paycheck and the military. it is very unpopular to have people serving in the united states but wouldn't get a paycheck ore the holidays. >> still to come, inside of the notebook of an accused killer. what prosecutors are revealing about the writings they found when luigi mangione was arrested for the murder of united health care ceo. with verizon, trade in any phone, any condition. it's your last chance to get iphone 16 pro with apple intelligence. get four on us. only on verizon. your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire let's monopoly go! hehe. chris!

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the faa ban on drones has expanded. yesterday it was some areas of new jersey, today a temporary ban over parts of new york. after weeks of mysterious sightings. this latest ban runs through january 18th and covers critical infrastructure in brooklyn and queens and long island. kathy hochul said this is prurly precautionary and there are no threats to the sites. meantime, federal prosecutors are revealing some of the chilling writings they found in a note book they confiscated from luigi mangione. the suspect being held without bail in the murder of united health care ceo. a federal filing outlines some key statements including the details are finally coming together. and i'm glad in a way that i've procrastinated and this investor conference is a true windfall. it was outside of an investor conference that brian thompson was murdered. he returned to new york

yesterday to face new federal charges. that could make him eligible for the death penalty. joining me now is prescilla thompson covering this for us and former deputy chief former federal prosecutor and christy greenberg is here. it is great to have both of you here in person. i'm glad you got out from the cold yesterday. you were outside of the courthouse. he's sitting in a hellish jail, the brooklyn detention center. but what is the latest we're learning about the case, specifically from this federal filing? >> there were a lot of interesting nuggets in this federal filing, specifically about those writings that were found on him. when he was arrested, he expressed this hostility towards the health insurance industry and specifically wealthy executives and in august there was an entry talking about details coming together and adding the target is insurance because it checks every box. there was also an october entry in which he talked about

wanting, to quote, whack the ceo of a major health insurance company. and he said that he would try to do that at this investor conference according to the writings that are in the federal complaint. and of course, one of the other big questions here is whether or not he acted alone or may have had help. we saw photos that appear to show him talking an owe the phone so there are questions around that. so what is said in the writings is that, quote, i wasn't working with anyone. this was fairly trivial. some elementary school engineering, base c.a.d. and a lot of patiences. you could check serial numbers to justify that was all of my own and this is part of the federal complaint unsealed and he's facing four counts including most damaging one being murder where he could potentially face the death penalty in convicted. >> what do these handwritten notes mean for the prosecution, christy? >> well the state has charged

murder in the first-degree, which requires an aggravating factor of intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. so where do you get that intent and get into the murderer's mind, you get there through the writings and where he said in particular the message is self-evident. because he chose this investor conference. because the health insurance industry was the target. the message is self-evident. the prosecutors are going to argue, he very clearly intended to coerce he's wealthy executives in the insurance industry and his writings prove that. as to the federal charges, they are weapons charges and stalking charges. and you don't quite need to prove intent in the same way. and they carry really stiff penalties. it is unusual to see both state and federal charges for the same murder. it does seem that there is some coordination there. they talked about in the federal

press conference that the state trial could go first. but i think you're seeing the feds get in there, there is a letter that said to the feds, he clearly intended for his message to be spread. and you also have these really stiff penalties. even if death is not something that the federal prosecutors seek to -- to have imposed here, were he to be convicted, there is a 30 year mandatory minimum sentence for one of the weapons charges. that is not even the one where it is the murder charge. just for having possession of a weapon with a silencer, that is 30 years mandatory minimum consecutive to a sentence on any other count and so i think that is why you saw them coming in here as well. >> we mentioned you worked at ndsy and you talked about the prosecutors and talk about them and what you would expect their approach to be? >> well the lead prosecutor on this, he's former law enforcement. he's a former police officer.

he's very seasoned in violent claim cases in particular. so this is not his first rodeo. he's been doing this for years. he's the lead prosecutor here. the second prosecutor that is listed on the complaint, june chang, he's someone that i supervised when he was brand-new to the u.s. attorneys office. he's incredibly bright. he is very aggressive. and very innovative in terms of thinking about cases and how to build a case. an he was that way from the first year that he joins the office. so i imagine now that he has several years under his belt, he's only gotten better. both of those prosecutors have a lot of trial experience. as for the third, i don't know her, but she's fairly junior and that is standard in these cases to bring on a junior person to help. >> and you mentioned aggressive. are you expecting to see a very aggressive prosecution. >> yes. >> what does that look like? >> it looks like what you see in these charges. these are aggressive charges.

that carry stiff penalties. you're going to see them, again, complaint lists some of the evidence, but i don't think at least based on public reporting it looks like there is more than -- that is in this notebook and in the letter than is in their complaint. so they're going to be pulling all of that evident together to build the tightest case about what happened and what the intent was. >> christy greenberg and priscilla thompson, thank you so much. and up next, what we're learning about a precision strike that took out an isis leader in syria amid fears that the terror group wants to break out thousands of jihadists from the country's prisons. we'll have the latest. country's. we'll have the latest. stop typ, and start talking. it could be a medical condition called peyronie's disease, or pd. you're not alone, there is hope. find a specialized urologist who can diagnose and treat pd. visit makeapdplan.com today.

breaking news from syria. where the urs killed an isis leader in what cent com is saying it a precision air strike, that strike took place yesterday in an area that used to be controlled by the syrian regime and russia. isis has been trying to re-establish its foot hold by

taking advantage of uncertainty in the country. today a u.s. delegation arrived for meetings with the rebels. first diplomatic mission since the fall of bashar al assad. aaron is reporting from the washington and courtney kube is from the pentagon. and now they are still designated as terrorists so what is the biden administration hoping to accomplish with this democratic military. >> well you're right, hts, still does have the terrorist designation. there is some effort to change that designation by the u.s. government. there would need to be some requirements met in order for hts to no longer be considered a terrorist organization. at the same time it doesn't seem like that is inhibiting the ability to go into syria and have conversations. there is a senior state department official on the ground in syria along with a delegation of people and there

are a couple of goals that are trying to be met with this visit. first, they're meeting with the rebel group in an effort to talk about how to make sure there is a smooth transition into a new syrian government, one that the u.s. wants to make sure is inclusive of all of the syrian people. contrary to what was the case under the assad regime. there was an effort with this meeting to have conversations about austin tice. a journalist who has been missing in syria for some 12 years now. we know that his parents, his mother in particular has been on television as of late talking about her understandings around him still being alive. that he is -- and her hope that he can be found. and so there are conversations about him and other americans who have been missing in syria for some time now that this delegation is supposed to be having. and chris, we also understand that the delegates will be meeting with other members of the communities there in syria, where activists, with members of civil society, trying to talk about how the u.s. could be helpful to them in establishing

inclusive norms in syria now that the assad regime is no longner power. >> courtney, we're learning there are twice as many soldiers in syria than previously known and what is that about and what role is the u.s. playing on the ground in syria. >> you might think that the reason the u.s. upped the number of troops, was what erin was explaining. the look for austin tice and this unrest from hts, the rebel group that caused the assad regime to fall and then led to a lot of uncertainty about the future of the country. but the reality is the u.s. troops have been on the ground there for months, if not longer. the u.s. has long said that they have 900 troops in syria. they are focused on the defeat isis mission. so they are focused on work with the syrian democratic forces to help make sure that isis isn't able to regain ground in syria. but now we have learned there are now, in fact, more than

2,000 troops there, but that is really all we know. they've been there for months. it is not related to this recent unrest in syria. it is not related necessarily to october 7th, we're also told. but it is not clear what caused this what is still being explained as temporary but has been sustained over a period of months. this deployment. we're know they are primary army soldiers and that is all that we know. and the big question is why. is there some new component to the counter isis mission and how long will the troops be there. what erin was explaining about barbara lee, the senior u.s. diplomat being in damascus meeting with the hts leaders and talking about the possibility of delisting them or taking the bounty off of their leader's head. all of this is extremely significant when you look at where the u.s. was just a month ago with syria. there is the possibility here of real change. and the question that none of us have an answer to is will that

have an impact on the counter isis mission. that is one of the big questions and we're trying to get more details of why there are more than 2,000 troops there now. >> thank you for that. and coming up next hour, russia's brutal rush hour air strike, the massive attack on ukraine's capital that had fires burning in the streets. but first, what to know about the bird flu risk that has california declaring a state of emergency. we'll talk to a top health expert, next. alth expert, next moisturize? try olay regenerist for 10 benefits in every jar. olay visibly firms, lifts, and smooths wrinkles, by penetrating the skin, to boost regeneration at the surface cellular level. try olay.

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among the casualties today, if the government shutdowns, the cdc will no long he be able to track the bird flu. just after california declared a state of emergency over the virus and the cdc reported that the first severe human case in the country. in louisiana, that person has been hospitalized in critical condition. but unlike the other 60 human cases reported since april, this is the first time someone has contracted it from a backyard flock. california has the highest known number of infections. the majority of the cases linked to dairy herds which is the nation's second -- it is the nation's largest producer of milk. in fact, the virus has spread so rapidly farmers have started calling it covid for cows. i want to bring in dr. asheesh shaw, dean from public school of health. it is good to see you --.

when we hear that california has declared a state of emergency, how concerned should the general public be. >> thanks for having me back. the risk to the general population remains low for now. and the key is for now. we have to get ahead of this thing. and there are a couple of things we need to be doing. for cows, this is becoming a real problem, a lot of them are getting sick and not recovering and for dairy forms and we've to do treatment in case we start seeing the spread more among people, who are ready to go. >> so california, as i mentioned is the nation's largest producer of fillk. let me ask a basic question. is there any risk from drinking mill frk a cow that might be infected. >> all of the evidence said pasturized milk is very safe. unpasturized milk or raw milk which is popular in certain circles, always risky. substantially more so now.

so my very strong recommendation is not drink raw milk because that may be an effective way of getting bird flu infection, which you want to avoid. but the data so far in pasteurization is very clear. pasturized milk, which is most of us buy in the grocery store is very safe. someone i know you know, dr. gnaw heed baddeleya tweeted this. to me it feels like playing russian roulette without knowledge ever how long we have been playing or will be playing. that is in every new human case and change in viral behavior and circumstance and commutation are making people jittery about other shoot dropping. why hasn't the bird flu pandemic started. now that we have the case in louisiana, are you concerned about mutations or this could, indeed, become something truly serious? >> look, for many of us, bird flu is something we've been

tracking for 20 years. why bird flu for 20 years? . because in the past it has had a high mortality rate. half of people got infected and had cases ended up dying. we have not seen anything like that with this outbreak. but what dr. baddeleya raises, right now it is not spreading human-to-human, thankness. right now it is not killing a lot of people. but those are two things that could change on a dime and question is how lucky do we feel. do we want to keep pushing our luck or start planning for a potential outcome where the virus mutates and started spreading from person-to-person, becomes more lethal in that context. i think we should be preparing for that. even if it never happens, we should be prepared for that. >> i'm assuming at the center of any planning, would be the cdc and the other big story we're covering today is the looming government shutdown. should we be worried if the cdc is having to close its doors

except for essential employees. should we be worried as it is been suggested their ability to track flu and bird flu cases goes away? >> the chaos in congress goes even beyond that. so the answer to your question, absolutely, we need the cdc to track cases and find where people are getting infected. that is essential work. but the truth is that this congress has become so dysfunctional, if it was a functional congress right now, they would be giving money for vaccines, so that we could build out vaccines so that if we get por spread of this virus, that we're ready with brand-new vaccines. there is none of that funding coming. they would be funding testing so that we could track the virus. back in 2020, why was covid such a problem, we didn't have tests or treatment or vaccines. we could get ahead of all of that right now. but it does require a functional congress and i'm deeply worried this congress is not sort of living up to its responsibilities. >> well, to do that, you would

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