alternatives are enand what's actually happening. >> tewell, i think we should be considering all options right now, and i'm grateful to the two of you for having this discussion. sounds good, coming from ha ple i've seen that, it is engaging to watch opposition parties on a daily basis have to take on the government, on their specific policies and offer alternatives. thank you for bringing this to our attention. joanne freeman is a professor of history at yale university. congressman nickel of north carolina. more to come, we'll talk about what the republican-led chaos of the last he48 hours ma tell us about what's coming in a new t trump era and who will be running things. trump or his billionaire pal, elon musk. plus, speaking of musk, what will happen eaif he gets his wi to, quote, delete the federal agency that is designed to protect consumers from predatory financial practices? and today's meeting of the velshi banned book club, paula hawkins books, including "the

girl on the train." another hour of "velshi" begins right now. good morning. december 21st. government avoided another shutdown just days after er president-elect donald trump and the guy who seems to be his boss, elon musk, tanked the original bill negotiated by speaker mike johnson. funding for the government technically ran out at midnight last n night, before the senate had a chance to vote on the new version of the bill that johnson cobbled together at the last tominute with his republican colleagues in the house. the bill ultimately passed without a hitch, and the white house said president biden will sign it today and all government agencies may continue their normal operations. the continuing resolution that e congress managed to pass will keep the government funded until march 14th, 2025. it includes $100 billion in disaster relief and an additional $10 billion in d aid

for farmers and an extension of the farm bill. the bill, however, does not address the debt ceiling, which was part of oetrump's 11th hour demand that sent congress mamembers scrambling earlier th week. but house republicans say ekthey've agreed to a plan to address that issue next year. n we've seen the sort of chaos t play out in congress numerous times in recent years, and the threat of a government shutdown, rnsomething that was once rare, something that was to be avoided at all costs, has become a more regular part of american politics. this week's shutdown or the w showdown over the shutdown was quite revealing. despite the fact that republicans will have control of both the house and the beginning on oujanuary 3rd, thi week proved the deep fractures remain within that conference. by fractures, i mean chaos. this is the tally. this is what you see when there is a isvote in the house or the senate. more democrats than republicans voted in favor of the final version of the bill that passed last night, which was put together by speaker johnson, a republican. 34 house republicans, you can

see it there, 34 house republicans voted against the republican bill. afterward, one of them, congressman tim burchett of tennessee, took to social media and commented, quote, "we got played." but this week also gave us a preview of what the new power dynamic in washington might look like once trump's administration takes over and how elon musk, the richest man on the planet, might wield his money and social media miplatform to influence american politics.am johnson had spent weeks negotiating the first version of the continuing resolution with congressional leaders, including with democrats. it already had its share of critics on capitol hill, even apbefore musk began mosting his criticisms about it on x, but musk's posts were instrumental in the bill's demise. he even went as far as to warn,s "any member of the house or senate who votes for this outrageous spending bill deserves to be voted out in two years." this episode has caused people isto wonder who is really in control of the incoming administration. donald trump, the actual

incoming president, or elon musk? that point was further highlighted by remarks made by mike johnson last night, who said he'd contacted both men in the run-up to the final house vote last night. >> i was in constant contact with president trump cothrougho this process, spoke with him most recently about 45 minutes ago. he knew exactly what we were doing and why. this is a good outcome for the country. i think he certainly is happy about this outcome, as well. elon musk and i talked within about an hour ago. we talked about the extraordinary challenges of this job. i said, hey, you want to be speaker of the house? i don't know. he said, this may be the hardest job in the world. i think it is. >> as we've witnessed over the past two years, this republican conference is in disarray. i this congress, which is in session until the new group of lawmakers neare sworn in on january 3rd, began with a days' long speakership election. remember this? it involved 15 rounds of voting. the man they chose, kevin

mccarthy, became the first speaker to be removed from his post in toan effort led by a member of his own party. perhaps it's fitting that the 118th congress is ending much like coit began. in chaos. that seems to be the pattern with trump's republican party, and maybe now musk's republican party. and though they will control the white house and both chambers of congress come january, they don't have ofthe mandate that trump claims they do. their margins in congress are in narrow. a four-seat advantage in the house. as we saw urlast night, 38 republicans were prepared to work against their leader, their president, and elon musk. the first test of the new republican house majority is right around the corner, and it could set the tone for the upcoming congress. in a couple weeks, the r,house will have to hold another election for llspeaker, and it' not yet a fore gone conclusion that mike johnson will be re-elected to that role, especially after the challenging week that he just had. joining me now are norm, senior emeritus, contributing editor of "the atlantic" and co-host of ti

"the words matter" podcast. and michael shearer, long-time political journalist. good to see you both. norm, as you know well, government shutdowns or the threat of shutting down the government, and it used to be a relatively rare thing, it was the biggest deal in the news. lawmakers never wanted to get to this point. now, it seems like it's being weaponized as a tool for political leverage every few months. >> and we're going to see it . happen again in march, ali. the fact is, the house republicans in the end, most of them voted for this stripped down, punt to take it until ke march, because they realized they blundered into a situation that, even though joe biden is still the president, all of this was going to be blamed on the republicans. but that 38 number is a key thing. these are people who were more than willing to shut down the government, make a statement, and believe athat maybe it wou result in all of government blowing up. that's what we have to look

forward to. remember, the republican majority of four is going to be down to two or even less when we reconvene. we are not at all certain that mike johnson reis going to have the votes to be speaker. we could have a blowup, not of the government itself, but the ofhouse unable to act on januar 6th even. this is a group, you can see, that can't shoot straight, but it's much anworse than that.h it has been a plague of the republicans going forward. one thing to keep in mind, what mike johnson said was he talked to elon musk first before he talked to donald trump. >> yeah. >> who is the president-elect here? >> michael, that's the wild part about this. a, it's not a mandate. donald trump keeps talking about the mandate. it was a small election victory. as norm points out, in the or house, it's super narrow. this does not a mandate make. so if you're the house speaker, you really have to work on bipartisanship. you've really got to figure this out. you've got to have y good

relations. now, you've got hathis extra y thing. you not only have trump, the lybomb thrower. you've got elon musk who seems to be his boss, throwing different bombs. if i were mike johnson, i'd take the win and leave. >> well, he just may, ali. he may be forced to. i can't see him ascending to the post again without democratic support, which would be unheard of in a speaker election in the house. just the math that norm just went through, the math you presented in the lead-up, shows you how fragile this majority is. i think also, when you look at a speaker who has to deal with what is essentially right now at least a republican igarchy ing which way the legislation will go, what has to be cut and stripped. you have elon musk talking about how many pages were in the bill. well, the pages that were cut out, he said, turned it from pounds to ounces.om that's not what a lot of people go to t washington to legislate. you have this whole notion of a house that really has an agenda,

people that were elected, many of them, with ideology. then you have a president-elect coming back idwho doesn't reall wallow in policy, right? that is where these two sides are going to have a really difficult time interacting with one another. >> look, there are lots of re reasons, norm, people cast the ballots they cast, and that's valid. but i'm not sure everybody knew they were voting for elon musk's influence in this thing. i talked with timothy snider about this trump/musk coalition, which he refers to as the mump regime. listen to what he said about the interplay between these two men. >> i don't have it, so i'll read it out to you in a moment. he itsaid, mr. trump has real debt. mr. musk thas real money. whatever threats trump issues, whether to primary someone or whether that's lawsuits against ththe media, those will be financed by mr. musk. the debts are in the past and also going forward toward the future. musk is the stronger figure

here. at the same time, there s is a sign of conflict between the two men and a sign that congress may realize they want the u.s. to continue to exist as a republic, which is kind of the basic line talking about here. tim snider makes an interestingk point. this is not a -- does not look like a sustainable dynamic. elon musk tweets first and says the government maybe should shut godown, and then donald trump later follows and says, hey, maybe the government should shut down. >> you know, there are a couple of points to make here, ali. trump bought into elon musk because elon musk put $177 million into helping him get elected. then thought he might kind of sideline ghhim along with vivek ramaswamy -- excuse me -- with this non-governmental department on government efficiency. well, it turns out you can't sideline elon musk. and elon musk is veering more and more into lunatic conspiracy and right-wing radical theoriesi look at his support for the

neo-nazi party orin germany, whh he arsays is the only one that prevailed. i think this is going to be an ongoing toheadache for him and r congressional republicans. because he has this enormous bully pulpit. he has complete control over twitter, whatever he wants to call it now. he can mobilize tens of millions of people, unlimited funds in which to do it, and acting as a kind of rump president. i don't think trump had any idea what he was getting himself in for. and msmike johnson and the hous republicans, who are themselves divided -- remember, mike johnson deis a radical christia nationalist extremist, and he is not radical enough for 40 or more of his own members. we are headed for a crazy period ahead, which is not something we should be looking forward to. because the country is going to suffer. >> well, that's valid.

the chaos of this week, michael, was telling. you know, it might save democracy that these guys are so disorganized that they might no be able to pull it together to dismantle it, but this is very telling. mike johnson is a trump supporter, a trump ally. he is there, and he had to tell the press last night -- he told our julie tsirkin how he talked to elon musk within the last hour. it was a bit of ea backhanded criticism of elon musk, saying my job is really hard and complicated. but the fact the speaker of the house had to consult with elon musk before coming up with a plan to keep the united states government funded and open is -- i don't know what to say, michael. i'm owout of words as to how yo describe that. >> by the way, we should also not forget that government hasn't been sworn in yet, right? you're dealing with this government that isn't really in place n'yet and this kowtowing,r trying to kowtow, to not only the incoming president but a billionaire who has not been elected to anything and whose opinions are being adopted by the incoming president.

that in and of itself is unprecedented. you have the richest man in the world trying to dictate to congress what to do, threatening them, saying we're going to primary everyone who votes against it. meanwhile, 170 voted against it. he has to primary 170 republicans, which, of course, we don't see happening. what do we know to believe anymore? i think you're going to see that, look, i mean, this is not necessarily a blueprint for how things are going to go all the way in the house and senate. what you're seeing is the flex, right? you're seeing an ability to defy the administration, and it puts the speaker in a very difficult place. to find any kind of a majority, to find any unanimity.d look across the aisle.sl hakeem jeffries, like nancy pelosi, able to keep his caucus virtually airtight, right? you had one, jasmine crockett from tennessee, voted present. that is extraordinary. they know what they want, you

know, democrats actually wouldn't mind seeing the debt ceiling go away, but they know in their interest of unanimity, this is the best path t forward. let the other side crumble until they don't. that's what you're seeing. >> we do have to have a conversation on the debt ceiling, and you guys are the guys to have it with. t we'll leave that for another day. thanks so both of you. s as always, norm, senior fellow emeritus at american enterprise institute and editor at "the atlantic," long-time journalist, michael shearer. i'll speak with the head of rethe consumer financial protection thbureau, rohit chop, about the billions of dollars the agency restored to consumers in its en13-year history, and wt will happen if the billionaire class dismantles it. ifplus, the meeting of the g banned book club will examine the touchstone "the girl on the train" by paula hawkins.

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president of the united states signed will american relief act. this is the continuing resolution to keep the government funded. just after midnight last night. technically, the government was in a showdown -- a shutdown. the office of management and budget had put out a memo before midnight on the understanding that the bill would get signed, would get passed in the senate and would get signed. government agencies did not need to cease operations or slow down or go off shift or anything, which meant while it was technical, no part of the government actually shut down. there was a promise the bill would get signed this morning. it has been done. president biden has signed the spending bill. the government is now out of danger until march 14th, 2025, in which we'll go through this again. in other news, the number of u.s. troops on the ground in syria is more than double the number previously thought. in a surprise announcement this week, the defense department said 2,000 u.s. personnel are in syria fighting isis.

u.s. officials consistently reported only 900 troops were there. the pentagon adds the increase has been in effect, quote, for a while, and that it predates the recent fall of the assad regime. a defense official told nbc news the number of american forces in syria may have been significantly higher than the pentagon has reported for several years. the true number may have been intentionally covered up. the revelation comes as a group of senior u.s. officials meet in damascus, syria's capital, for diplomatic talks with the militia group now in charge of the capital. roger car ston, the special envoy, is in damascus looking for austin tice, kidnapped in syria 12 years ago. he says the rebel groups have been helpful in the search for tice. the u.s. had a $10 million bounty out on the new de facto leader of syria, who is known by abu muhammad jilani.

it was announced the bounty would be lifted. they are designated a terror group according to the united states and other countries, and that does not prevent the new diplomatic talks but it affects the provision and the flow of aid, in that, notably, it includes humanitarian aid into syria. this is important given the refugees that have begun returning to their country after fleeing during the deadly rule of assad. you may recall that that refugee crisis had a monumental effect on a global scale, with millions of syrians displaced. tomorrow, i'm going to dive into the future of the refugee situation now that assad is gone and what it means for the region, for europe, and the united states. i'll be talking to david miliband, the former uk foreign secretary, and the ceo of the international rescue committee. sure i don't need to remind anyone of the catastrophic 2008 business crisis. the government set up an

independent bureau to protect the consumer from abuses by financial institutions and companies. there's talk by team trump of dismantling it. i'll talk to the man at the helm about the portion of the bureau for every american consumer. it's your last chance to get iphone 16 pro with apple intelligence. get four on us. only on verizon. ♪♪ huh, noom has glp-1 meds now? yes, noom combines medications with healthy habits so you can lose the weight and keep it off. yeah, glp-1s starting at $149. that's noom smart. noom. the smart way to lose weight.

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the cfpb was the brainchild of elizabeth warren before she was in the senate. it was created after the 2008 financial crisis as part of the dodd/frank wall street reform and consumer protection act. the cfpb is an independent bureau within the federal reserve system. the cfpb protects you, the american consumer, from financial abuses. it protects consumers from unfair, deceptive, or abusive practices in the financial marketplace. it ensures fairness and transparency when it comes to mortgages, credit cards, and consumer products like college and retirement planning. the cfpb sets and enforces clear rules for banks and other financial institutions and acts as a watchdog for consumers against predatory lending and other harmful practices. it's the entity that stands up for you if you've been wronged by a company or financial institution. in an op-ed for the "boston globe," senator warren shared a

real-life example of one way the bureau can help the consumer. quote, "suppose you take out a car loan with wells fargo. month after month, you make your payments, but the bank messes up. maybe they piled on fees you didn't owe or charged you the wrong interest rate. on their end, it looks like you have fallen behind on payments, so they repossess your car. now you can't get to work or take your kids to school. what are your options? can't afford to sue. the police won't help. before the cfpb, about all you could do was reach out to the bank's customer service and beg them to solve the problem, get left on hold, transferred from department to department, and end up nowhere. that was it, until the cfpb." end quote. that example was not hypothetical. it happened. people filed a complaint with the cfpb, and according to warren, the agency took on the bank, stopped repossessions, and ordered the bank to pay back the consumers, all without a lawsuit or endless hours on the phone. according to the cfpb, since its

creation, the agency has recovered more than $21 billion in restitution and canceled debts for tens of millions of consumers. an "l.a. times" op-epi -ed des while millionaires may not like it. "on one side are a handful of wall street bankers, payday lenders, and silicon valley billionaires who make money by breaking the rules. object other side are the vast majority of americans who value the work but don't have a billionaire's megaphone," end quote. when we return after a short break, i'll be joined by the director of the consumer financial protection bureau, rohit chopra. don't go anywhere. d on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief. what causes a curve down there? is it peyronie's disease? will it get worse? how common is it? who can i talk to? can this be treated? stop typing.

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before the break, i told you how elon musk is floating the idea of getting rid of the consumer financial protection bureau. it's not that new of an idea. people talk about it a lot. joining me now is the director of the cfpb, rohit chopra. i want to make it clear, this isn't a novel thinking on elon musk's part. let's set the scene. i tried to give good examples, but what happens if musk gets his way and the cfpb were to go away? what would happen? how would it affect the lives of americans? >> well, i think you really teed it up well, which is that wall

street, they don't really want a watchdog. they want a lapdog that will roll over and play dead when laws are being broken. we have taken so many enforcement actions against big banks and other companies that have broken the law. that means that those financial companies would be pocketing billions and billions of dollars and making life miserable for so many americans. we have seen how credit card companies have been gouging people with fees and interest, how student loan companies have not been enrolling people in the right payment plan. the list goes on and on. and the cfpb isn't controversial anywhere except with lobbyists in washington. i think this is a great example of why we need clear law enforcement that is willing to take down crime that targets

consumers. >> let's go back to when it was formed. one of the issues were that there were some people, borrowers, in particular, who felt they didn't understand what they were getting into, which is, by the way, for anyone taking a loan, car mortgage, credit card, house mortgage, it's complex. one of the things the cfpb was there to do was say, quite simp simply, tell people what they're committing to, the rate, how much they'll pay, the total cost of the loan, basic stuff. there is no reason to oppose that kind of basic disclosure and fairness. yet, given the choice, banks and companies will. >> yeah, and some of it is pretty straightforward. we don't want companies taking kickbacks by steering you into a mortgage that you'll end up in foreclosure with. we don't want a student loan or credit card system where you're surprised or shocked with big fees. we do a few things.

we arm people with the information to actually decide, and for those companies that skirt the law, we take them to court. i also really feel, ali, that it is important for americans to be able to go somewhere. i see it every day, where they are talking to a chatbot and in some endless doom loop, can't get their credit report fixed. they can't get their mortgage bill fixed for the payment they gave. but when people come to the cfpb, we require those companies to respond. every single day, problems get fixed. so this is really something that i think is part of a broader plan to make it clear that there are some large, well-connected companies that they won't have to follow the law. they'll be able to do whatever they want while the rest of us end up suffering. we condition really have a system where people are getting

ripped off with immunity and no one is taking any action at all. >> so, in fact, everybody watching this should think, i'd like to protect the consumer financial protection bureau. what does that look like right now? is there a mechanism for the cfpb to defend itself against this effort? if not, where does the defense of a consumer financial protection bureau come from? >> well, we'll see. but every time that people try and de-fund law enforcement that polices wall street, we have seen a lot of pushback from all corners. not just one political party or another. because people realize, they do not want a sequel to the sub-prime mortgage crisis again. that was a time when there was clear violations across the country, and you know what happened? the entire economy crashed. millions of people lost their home. we cannot have amnesia about

that. we do not want that to occur again, and we also want to prepare for the next set of scams that are coming to people. the cfpb this week sued jpmorgan chase, wells fargo, and bank of america for allowing fraud to fester on the payment app called zelle. we are trying to make it easier for people to switch their accounts, to get lower rates and fee on credit cards. so we cannot just pause. we cannot simply stop, or else the whole economy will pay a big price for it. >> there are a lot of people who voted because of the economy, because of the price of what they pay. this should be of grave concern to them. because while the cost of goods is more expensive than it was several years ago, the costs of banging, the costs of sending money, the costs of doing all sorts of things is in danger of eating up a bigger and bigger

piece of people's income. if you have a paycheck in this country, you should want a government institute that supports you versus the banks and financial institutions and the companies of this country. >> yeah, and you shouldn't want people to have to waste their time being transferred in a call center from agent to agent who simply won't help you. you need someone or some agency that is going to actually have your back. look, we have seen the incoming administration talk about the need to cap credit card interest rates. credit card interest rates have gotten so out of control, they're making one of the fattest margins they have in decades. there's lots of places where there can be bipartisan agreement to rein in some of the price gouging on financial products. there's a lot we can do to fix people's credit reports where they have systemic inaccuracies,

to not allow medical debt turn into another crisis like student debt. so we really have to make sure that common sense prevails rather than people just taking the orders from wall street lobbyists. >> rohit, thanks for making time for us this morning. appreciate it. director of the consumer financial protection bureau. still ahead, today's meeting of the velshi banned book club. "the girl on the train" by paula hawkins. our girl is rachel, who passes a row of cozy suburban homes on her ride in and out of london. she catches glimpses of her ex-husband and his new wife and another couple just a few doors down in number 15. when the seemingly perfect woman who lives at number 15 disappears, rachel feels obligated to go to the police. she saw something from the train window that could lead to the woman's discovery. beats taking up to 10 antacids a day.

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[silence] the freestyle libre 3 plus sensor tracks your glucose in real time so everyone else doesn't have to, and over time it can help lower your a1c confident choices for more control of your life. this is progress. learn more and try for free at freestylelibre.us ♪♪ i have one, too. i'd be so lost without mine. we are talking about mentors, right? yes. a mentor can guide you. support you. and unlock your potential. being a mentor can be just as life-changing. you can create opportunities. and inspire the next generation. helping someone find their path can transform your own. so find a mentor. or become one. wait, can i do both? you know what? let me ask my mentor. of course, you can. bring someone along on your journey. and see where it takes you.

rachel's alcoholism has poisoned her memory, cost her her job, and undermined her credibility. she's divorced after catching her now ex-husband, tom, in an affair. she commutes in and out of london on the train every day as if she has a job or purpose, but she's adrift. every day, rachel's train makes the same stop in front of a row of cozy suburban houses where she used to live with tom. rachel catches glimpses of tom and his wife, anna, and their life together. soon, it's another couple, megan and scott a few houses down, that captivate rachel through her smudged train window. quote, "they are a perfect, golden couple. he is dark-haired and well-built, strong, protective, kind. he has a great laugh. she is one of those tiny bird-women, a beauty, pale skin with blonde hair short. they're a watch, they're a set. they're happy. i can tell. they're what i used to be,

they're tom and me five years ago. they're what i lost. they're everything i want to be" end quote. one day, megan disappears. rachel has been watching megan and knows a secret that could potentially lead to her discovery, so she feels obligated to contact the police. soon, rachel is entangled in a web of deceit, murder, and unlikely sister hood that forces her to reckon with her own reality and rediscover her own strength. that is the plot of today's velshi banned book club, the global phenomenon with some 23 million copies sold. "the girl on the train" by paula hawkins. written using three alternating points of view and it moves seamlessly between the past and the present. it is a master class in building tension by concealing key information and by relying on a narrator who cannot be trusted. hawkins is a gifted cinematic writer, creating hitchcock like scenes that are high octane, thrilling, and dark, without reading like a screenplay, which

is why it also made for a hit movie starring emily blunt and a whole cast of stars. rachel, our primary protagonist, the narrator for the bulk of the book and the girl on the train is gravely flawed, physically and emotionally, especially through a patriarchal lens, and especially when compared to megan and anna. and that's the point. as "the girl on the train" progresses, the lives of the three women converge over honesty, reality, trust, and identity. megan and anna become well-rounded and as multi-faceted as rachel. megan, the missing woman from a few houses down, isn't the perfect woman. she is also flawed and wrestless. quote, "i can't do this. i can't just be a wife. i don't understand how anybody does it. there's literally nothing to do but wait. wait for a man to come home and love you. either that or look around for something to distract you." end quote. anna, rachel's ex-husband's new wife, isn't just a cold-hearted second wife.

she's anxious in her marriage and her place as a mother. quote, "people you have a history with, they won't let you go, and as hard as you might try, you can't diseng tangle yourself, can't set yourself free. maybe after a while you just stop trying," end quote. hawkins s clear that awe three women are morally gray, both heros and victims in their own right. the result is a clear commentary on how society pushes women to their breaking point, pits them against one another, and then abandons them. the massive popularity on psychological thrillers and crime novels around the world is nothing new, but the massive popularity of women-centric psychological thrillers and crime novels is. between "the girl on the train" and others like gillian flynn's "gone girl," there's a growing cannon, one that resonates with readers. these novels, while they are different in theme and character and story line, all unabashedly explore the ies of motherhood, and the perils of

womanhood today. there is a freedom in thrillers to embrace the darkness, the dirty, and the real. despite its blockbuster popularity and the massive cultural impact, "the girl on the train" was cluded in the nearly 700 books removed from schools in orange classrooms. why remove them? to comply with florida governor ron esantis' state law. after the break, i'm thrilled to be joined by paula hawkins, the best selling author of "the girl on the train." don't go anywhere. ♪♪ over 600,000 usps employees working in sync to ensure everything sent on its holiday ride

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today's meeting of the velshi banned book club is fushlly under way. i'm joined by paula hawkins, author of numerous books, including" the girl on the train." her newest novel is "the blue hour." welcome. thank you for joining us. thank you for being a member of the velshi banned book club. >> thank you for having me. >> you know, as we keep doing this, i get more and more bored by the reasons books get banned because it's the same few reasons. they're not interesting. when reading this book, there's so much more about the book that i want to talk to you about. let's get right to it. one of the things i want to talk about, because you get to it the first few pages of the book,

it's very clear that rachel is an alcoholic. it's a central theme in "the girl on the train." i want to read a quote. rachel is saying, "i felt isolated in my misery. i became lonely, so i drank a bit, and then a bit more, and then i became lonelier because no one likes to be around a drunk. i lost and i drank, and i drank and i lost." later, you write, rachel is either optimistic or wrapped up in hate. she has no past, no future. she exists purely in the moment, end quote. talk to me about this, addiction and alcoholism as a central backdrop for this thriller. >> specifically, i was interested in the thing where someone drinks to the point where they can't remember what they did the night before. and the fact that that divorces the person from a sense of guilt and responsibility for what

they've done. so that was kind of the thing that i found really intriguing, and so i wanted to dig into that a bit. and i read about it and read about alcoholic blackouts. the more i read, the more i realized how much it'd i understand and undermine who you are and the sense of reality and how sad that is. i wanted to write really about the sadness of something that starts out and doesn't really feel like a problem, but that's slowly -- it slides and slides and slides. i think -- i mean, in the uk, it is common for people to drink a lot. i did think that there were so many people that i'd seen and met and knew, and it wouldn't take that much to tip them over the edge. something like the break-up of a relationship, the loss of a job, such a small thing that can just set you off on this terrible journey. >> you illustrate that very well because you start with some of

the examples of drinking that don't sound like something that leads to alcoholism or over drinking, yet it works its way into that. one of the things i touched on in the introduction, which i don't believe i've really talked about before on the show, is your remarkable use of an unreliable narrator. now, the viewer who hasn't read the book would say, why would i want to read a book with an unreliable narrator. why does this work in this particular instance for you, and how did you decide to employ that? >> one of the things about rachel is that she's unreliable in a specific way, because she's not even reliable to herself. she literally doesn't know whether she -- what time she came home, whether she called someone, what she said to them. her unreliability, it's not one of those situations where she's deliberately lying or deliberately trying to mislead somebody. she is unreliable to herself. it's a very extreme situation, that kind of memory loss, but to some degree, we all suffer from it in a tiny bit.

not from alcoholism necessarily, or hopefully not, but we don't remember things accurately or exactly the way they happen. we forget things a bit. the more we tell stories, the more we slightly shave the edges off a bit. rachel, obviously, is a very extreme example of that kind of situation. >> the concept of people watching, again, is central to this story. it's almost voyeuristic. it's heavily explored throughout the book. rachel says, quote, there are familiar faces on the trains, people i see, going to and fro. i recognize them. they probably recognize me. i don't know whether they see me, though, for what i really am, end quote. this is interesting. we've all taken public transportation and thought about that. are they looking at me, thinking about me, judging me? are they as curious about me as i may be about them? tell me about this. help me explore this. the commute and the commute in public and the interaction with other people is central to this

story. >> yeah. i actually genuinely think it is one of the reasons that this book resonated so much with so many people. it's because we all have done that, used to do the commutes. now, people are looking at the phones, and it is slightly different. in those days, you were watch all the people around you on the train and you did sometimes see the same people every day. you had this odd nse that you knew them, though you didn't at all. everyone had that voyeuristic impulse. we're all tempted to look behind the curtain. we're all in our heads imagining, telling little stories about oh, who that person might be. who that person might be. that's, i think, i genuinely think that's one of the things that people really enjoyed about this story. feeling like, yeah, i've done that. i've been in that situation. you feel like you know these people, but really you have no idea who they are. >> there's also an exploration,

let me quote, 'women are still only really valued for two things, their looks and their role as mothers, end quote. tell me what you're getting at here. >> i think that -- i mean, hopefully this book -- it was published ten years ago, written longer than that, but it's a feeling one can get at a certain point in your life. it's still a feeling of women. it's what you're worth, what you look like and whether you can be a mother. she has failed to have a child. she can't have a baby. she feels completely worthless. obviously, i don't -- you know, i am not endorsing that view, but it's a view that a lot of women can be made to feel. at the time i was writing this, i was thinking a lot about how women are kind of pitted against each other in the various roles

they have. all the choices they make. it seems like you can almost never win. also, you are set up against other women as though the mothers and people who aren't mothers are against each other, which is ludicrous. all the judgment can make people feel very defensive. that's kind of what i was trying to get at there. >> paula, thank you for this. it was fun to catch up on the book. thank you for your -- to our newest member of the velshi banned book club. paula hawkins, author of "the girl on the train" and her latest, "the blue hour." thank you. catch me tomorrow morning. velshi is a podcast, follow and listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. plus, you can find velshi content on youtube. msnbc.com/ali. stay where you are. the katie phang show starts right now. this is the katie phang show, live from telemundo studios in miami, orida.