that does it for the weekend this sunday morning. we wish you all a happy holiday. he will see you back here next saturday at 8:00 a.m. eastern. los on social media at the weekend msnbc. the programming note, today on inside with jen psaki, hakeem jeffries will join her days after he helped avert a government shutdown. that is noon eastern today on msnbc. velshi continues our coverage now. good morning, ali. >> you guys keep upping the ante. >> i got these, too. >> yesterday i had chestnuts and now i've got the open fire. >> i love this. i'm dying -- >> i felt so much. >> don't let me outdo velshi. i can to do that. he wants it to be about his fire. >> the only thing i want to

say. in case our boss is listening on the radio, in case she's not watching, there's no actual open fire in the studio . it is a picture of an open fire. its okay. >> ali my friend, it goes nicely with the sweater. and with -- with the chestnuts and alecia's reindeer. >> like a christmas angel. >> i've learned so much in the last 10 minutes. dj'ing the tax lawyer, i have learned a lot of stuff. but i have to say, i am with you on, if everybody can take a beat right now. i don't want to get away from politics because we all live in it but it doesn't have to be bad. it doesn't have to be a fight all the time. it doesn't have to be -- we can respect people who do not share our views. i am with you, simone. there is some coal involved but for most people there isn't and we can get there. let's make that, in fact i'm

starting with our rep -- fred representative bacon. >> he is a great nebraskan. >> we can always have a good conversation. we are not owing to agree on all things and that is entirely okay. thank you for your good wishes. have a fantastic week. i don't see before christmas, have a merry christmas and we will see you on the other side. >> see you on the side, happy holidays. >> velshi starts now. ♪ good morning, it is sunday december the 22nd. republican rule is taking shape in washington. 29 days before donald trump's inauguration and less than two weeks before the new republican congress is sworn in. and the chaos of the past week has raised questions about what republican governance will look like with slim majorities in both the house and the senate. ultimately, republicans need democratic votes, lots of them to pass the continuing resolution in order to avoid another government shutdown and

they may need the democrats help to pass bills in the next session of congress as well. the near government shutdown is also called into question the future of the republican party's congressional leadership. even though the house gop conference nominated mike johnson for speaker a month ago, the past week has left him a bit bruised and with uncertain future. there some thought that speaker mike johnson may need some democratic votes to win the election as speaker, after the debacle two years ago that saw kevin mccarthy win after 15 rounds of voting and subsequently beyond -- be unseated by a member of his republican conference. at least one republican congressman thomas massie of kentucky said in the past week he does not intend to vote for johnson when the full house holds the speakership election at the beginning of the new year. johnson can only afford if you republican defections if you want to keep the gavel. meanwhile congressional republicans will also have to navigate working with president-

elect trump and his allies, like elon musk who is a key figure in throwing capitol hill into chaos last week. plus the president-elect/the demand for congress to raise or even eliminate the debt ceiling revealed republicans still have some fundamental disagreements on both policy and procedure. none of this is easy. the work of keeping the government up and running takes a lot of cooperation and work with the dysfunction that was on display last week has some republicans, particularly those who wish to get down to the business of governing the country worrying about how difficult things can get as they prepare to take over washington with more spending bills and the issue of the debt ceiling looming on the horizon. joining me now is republican congressman don bacon who represents the second district of nebraska which is boating for the democratic presidential candidate in the past two elections. is also member of the agriculture and armed services committees. good to see you back on the show, thank you for being with us. >> glad to be on peer good

morning. >> let's talk about last week's budget battle. it wasn't as much about battle as it was a political battle. the outgoing senate republican leader mitch mcconnell is remarking that this is the way it's going to be next year. give me your assessment of this. how are things going in the house? is this an anomaly that it was rough last week or are you worried it is going to be a rocky road for republicans? >> first of all we have to get to the bottom line. we did fund government, we are example to extend the farm bill. but i agree, it was much harder than it should have been. we have a three seat majority in the house. and that makes it tough and i would say democrats are typically more unified, they tend to vote more in lockstep, i don't want to overgeneralize but that is pretty much the truth. on our side we have 30 to 40 republicans will never vote for continuing resolution, will never vote for raising the debt

ceiling. it is unfortunate that as speaker, we want to keep the government funded, it is stupid politics for being for government shutdown. i got 30 or 40 colleagues on my side they don't agree but yes to work with democrats to get the 218 votes needed to fund government and 30 or 40 republicans get even more mad and that is the dynamics that we have. we have three -- 30 or 40 who wanted their way, 85% solution is not good enough for them and that is the dynamics. also it is not just good enough to oppose a spending bill. they have to demonize it and put out falsehoods. that is what we saw this week. we saw one or two people providing false information to elon musk who then put it back out. for example, the congress wants to raise pay to $240,000 or essentially $66,000 pay raise. that was not true. that we were trying to protect liz cheney or that we were trying to --. that was not

true. that we were going to build a new stadium in washington, d.c. that was not true. by the time this was all put out, people were enraged because you got social media influencers with 1 million followers and they feed on outrage. that is how they get their money. it is not about being truthful. that is what we saw this week. i think speaker johnson tried to do the right thing. he tried to negotiate in good faith with hakeem jeffries. you got a good hard. he is honest and he got thrown under the bus this week by the social media guys and by elon musk. why did he just call the speaker and work this out. that is what you do professionally. >> i think you are right, mike johnson and it is not about what you think about anybody, it is the idea he was trying to do the thing you have to do and that is you are going to have to talk to some democrats. that is just the reality of the situation and frankly

congressman, you worked in a world where you've got to do that. you should be doing that but there have been calls this week in particular on right-wing radio about, this is not the time for compromise. this is the time for hyper partisanship. guys like you, and there are many of you in congress, don't want that. you don't believe that is the way forward but how do you live in this particular congress and say, this is going to be a congress that is only going to work if there is cooperation between people on both sides who are prepared to cooperate. that is what we voted for you to do. >> we have to seek the truth out. hyper partisanship does not work in a government that has three branches and one branch is bicameral. and the senate, you have to have 60 votes so you have to have seven democrats and to get past that, it forces more bipartisanship. so if we are parliament like the british have and you are the majority, you can be this hyper partisan group and rammed

through what you want. we just don't have that form of government. we have checks and balances and james madison designed this to ensure it is has -- it has a consensus between various factions to get stuff done. and so to think we are going to get 100% of what we want and democrats will get zero and i heard that this week. we get 100 and they get zero but now they have control of the senate and have the white house so that was unrealistic. but even when we have the white house and a slim majority in the senate and some majority in the house, there's got to be consensus building to get things done. seems to be everybody is feeling their way around elon musk and what role he's gotten this whole thing. i don't believe because is not elected he shouldn't have a say in anything, everyone of us, every american should have a say in what you think should happen. it is how it is control, the same control as voters, we all have one vote. how do you think republicans need to think about this? you have to cooperate with the current president and the incoming president, that is expected.

elon musk didn't get elected to anything. >> either was jake sullivan and folks -- i don't grudge president trump can pick advisers and seek advice and consulate, that is all good. and i looked over to hearing discussions on the d.o. ge where we find savings on that discussion. and things like that. what elon brought to the table this week was a social media bully pulpit, a little bit of mob reactions and i don't begrudge that if it was honest information. he's working on the side of president trump, speaker johnson is in the same party. why put out false information and to run over speaker johnson. it was not needed to do that. i was a retired general in the air force. pick up the phone and talk to

your ally and say hey, is it true you're trying to put $66,000 pay raise in there and speaker johnson would say that's not true. we are not doing anything like that. what about the football stadium? no, we are handing the stadium over to washington, d.c. to get the stadium off the arrow payroll because it is costing us lots of money right now. that is what needed to happen instead of having this mob mentality on social media. and i am sort of impervious to it because i've been the target of it for two or three years and have ignored it but a lot of other folks in our party or in the house, they are persuaded by. when you have people with 1 million followers lying about you, it is not a comfortable feeling but that is what we had happen this week. >> i want to ask about speaker johnson. you guys have a slim majority, slim -- if you ever things including a few appointments

that will be filled in a special election. let's talk about the election of mike johnson in particular. where you think that stands? we know one person who says he won't vote for him. of course these are not a thing until the votes are cast but what do you think happened now? you think mike johnson becomes the next speaker and are you going to support him? >> i'm going to support speaker johnson. i can't say with divinity he's going to be the next speaker because you have the gentleman from kentucky who says he's going to opposing. you know what he's going to vote against speaker johnson is weakening our conference. and it is going to strengthen the hand of hakeem jeffries. i'm just going to be blunt about it. there is no other way to look at it and we had an agreement this past month, right after the elections, we all got together and i'm from the main street caucus and we put together some amendment to go after some of the freedom caucus people who are undermining rules that were not -- that were doing vacate the chair discussions. and they were up in arms about our amendment.

okay, we will take the amendments off but what are you going to give us? they said we will support the speaker 100% and raise the bar for vacate the chair. we worked on an agreement that they would support the speaker 100% and now to hear some of them say we are not so sure, i expect people to live up to their word and when they give their word, they better stand by it. and the speaker 100% of the republican vote a month ago after the elections when we can best within our congress, the folks stuck with their word and their commitment. >> i want to ask you to speak -- to stick with me and i want to continue this on the other side of the break about the debt ceiling and the fact you are a retired general. i want to talk about that on the other side. congressman don bacon staying with me. we will be right back. right b. s to me, man. thank you, zeke. ♪ lalalalala. ♪ if you're living with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis or active psoriatic arthritis symptoms can sometimes hold you back. but now there's skyrizi,

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nebraska is rejoining me. congressman, good to see you. thank you for staying with us. let me ask about the debt ceiling. america is one of the few countries in the world to have such a thing and most places you have a debate on the front end about the budget and on about how much you're going to spend but once you spend that you agree to pay it. donald trump suggested suspending the debt ceiling. this is been an ongoing fight in america for a long time. he might have the right idea here. what is the dispute around that link went -- around the debt ceiling? >> we do a budget, we should know how much the deficit is going to be. don't need a debt ceiling because you have a debate every year where you pass a budget but i also think that raising the debt ceiling forces us to discuss. we have a problem and what are we doing to fix it. and we are around $35 trillion debt seven -- debt ceiling and you can subtract all the discretionary funding, all of it and we have an $800 billion deficit this year. use of crack the military

spending we would have $1.5 trillion deficit this year. so we've got an issue with the mandatory spending and nobody wants to deal with that because it is politically toxic and dangerous to deal with it. i think having a discussion on the debt ceiling forces us to have the discussion and i am a proponent for the debt commission where we put have republicans, half democrats, the plan social security and medicare but also to work toward a balanced budget. what you've gotta put it on the floor for an up or down vote. we had a commission for five years ago and did not have the mandate that you had to vote on it up or down and so the speaker never put it on the floor because it is too tough. but we have to deal with this. we are facing a catastrophe here . we can't spend what we need on the fence right now. we can't spend on other things that we know we have to spend because our deficit is choking

everything out. we are spending more money on interest payments that we are on military today. that is not acceptable and we got to have that discussion. having the discussion on debt ceiling helps us have that and it tries to bring us to where we can agree on how to solve this. >> you brought up the military spending. you are retired your general and it is a hot world with lots of stuff going on. this talk about suspending aid to ukraine. your thoughts? >> i support it. an independent ukraine is national security interests. if ukraine falls, you're going to see more european countries fall. i believe you will see georgia. putin will not stop. he has been raised to think that russia should have all the territory that it had under soviet union and a view that goes back to peter the great. and he doesn't think ukraine should be independent, that they should be their own people. he thinks the same thing about the baltic states. he calls them renegade state. we learned in our history that you us into a bully and they will keep coming at you. so

we've got to help ukraine survive this and we're doing it with 1% of the defense budget roughly. and we have no troops there. i way, i saw an update from european countries. is approximately 15 european countries giving more to ukraine the then we are in you look at gdp. this is a fight for freedom . it is a fight or rule of law. of russia wins this, telling the chinese you can take taiwan or might makes right and that is what is being said. or you tell i ran you can be -- in the middle east. it is a bad message to the other countries of the world that you let this happen. >> i'm always grateful that you accept our invitation to join us. we always have a fantastic conversation and think you for that. thank you for joining us this morning. have yourself a great christmas and we will talk on the other side.'s mary christmas to you and your listeners. >> congressman don break in -- don bacon of nebraska. millions of syrians forced to leave the country and cause a mobile refugee crisis.

now that asad is out, will those syrians be able to return home? we will discuss with the president and ceo of the international rescue committee, he standing by. that is next. that is next. ht? look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ [coughing] hi susan, honey? yea. i respect that, but that cough looks pretty bad. try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love, plus the powerful cough relief you need. mind if i root through your trash? robitussin, with real honey & elderberry. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting...

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what a deal! new and existing customers, trade in your busted old phone, and we'll give you a new iphone 16 pro with apple intelligence on us. civil war erupted in syria in 2011 after bashar al assad's government used violence to repress nationwide pro- democracy protests, syrians were caught in the crossfire. the city of aleppo, comes to millions of people and cultural heritage was destroyed by fighting. at civilians left without resources and forced to flee. in total, 14 alien syrians were displaced because of the civil war according to the un's refugee agent. most displaced within the country and about 6 million leaving the country altogether. a vast majority of those 6

million refugees live in serious neighboring countries, egypt, iraq, jordan, lebanon and turkey. turkey itself has taken over 3 million syrian refugees, more than any other country. i met with many of them in jordan and turkey, these are children who i met in turkey and 20 for him. when those countries began limiting their asylum processes and when assad began using chemical weapons of his own, syrians turned to europe and then chancellor of germany angela merkel made her rallying cry -- we can do this as 1 million syrian refugees arrived in europe between 2014 and 2016. germany would take the largest number of any european country. and what would be known as a 2015 european migrant crisis, the influx of syrian refugees sparked a host of political consequences for the continent. it didn't help around the same time that the islamic state

began ramping up terror attacks across europe feeling anti- muslim and anti-immigrant sentiment. much of the use political problem to the stay stemmed from disagreements over migration so when bashar al assad's government fell earlier this month, the question on the minds of many was, will the syrian refugees get to go home? just one day after assad was toppled, germany, sweden, norway, italy, denmark and austria all announced that they had paused their asylum process for syrians. other european countries followed suit. austria's government offered a 1000 euro bonus to syrians who wish to run her -- to return home after they considered outright deporting them. turkish politicians, in the opposition party are offering to cover transport tickets and cost for syrian refugees to turkey. the tone of the office was described as discriminatory by some of the press. many syrians have shown intention to return home, whatever may be left of it. in a june 24 survey by the u.n.

refugee agency of syrians living lebanon, jordan, egypt and iraq, 57% would like to return to syria one day although many were unsure how soon that would come. but a premature push of syrians back to the country could make it harder for that nation to get back on track. will tye minette center for strategic and international studies argues that flooding syrians back makes the odds of a sit vessel transition in syria even longer. if too many refugees return at once, it would increase pressure on strained public services, exacerbate social tensions and undermine the already slim press x of a successful transition. the consequence is, would not be limited to the area. there are other obstacles like the fact that the militia group now in charge of syria is designated a terrorist group by the u.s. and other countries which makes getting humanitarian aid to syria complicated. there's also a fragile

situation across the middle east. israel carried out hundreds of strikes in syria since the fall of assad . israel said the strikes are aimed at destroying military and the structure, nonetheless many syrians who have been away for so long are excited by the prospect of rebuilding the country. --, a syrian refugee and limit on told the publication middle east eye as he packed his bags to return, quote, syria needs people to rebuild it, it needs people in the army, police force, security, health fair. if the good people do not come back it will be taken over by thieves and those who want to exploit the situation, end quote. it's a lot to unpack and joining me to do this is david, the president as ceo of the international rescue committee and armor uk foreign secretary and author of rescue, refugees and the political crises of our time. david, thanks for being with us. i really needed to talk to you and understand this because it is not binary. on one hand you want people to go back to their own country and i think most refugees pray that one day they can go back

to their own country but this is really complicated. to start with we are not sure what the country is right now. we are not sure how stable it is and whether the militant group that is taken over has the capacity to even run the country. >> good morning, ali. you summarized situation very well. my organization, international rescue committee has been working in syria for 13 years of the civil war. so we've got experience of working under the rule of the range of armed opposition groups in the northwest of the country in putting the group that is currently leading the formation of a new government. i think it is important to say that we never took syria off our emergency watch list. some people said the war is over and we never fell for that because there were 16 million people inside the country needing humanitarian aid, 7 million refugees and out the

side the country. our priorities are to respect the choices that syrians themselves are making. certainly deporting syrians back to syria would be quite wrong but those who want to go back should be encouraged to do so for the reasons that you have explained. secondly, it is vital that the humanitarian aid is able to not just cross borders but to flow into the country without risk of getting caught up in the terrorist designation that you referred to. you may remember the one we spoke to come about the afghan crisis -- we talked then about the importance of allowing humanitarian aid and humanitarian aid workers to do that work. that is critical. thirdly the health system syria needs to be sustained. and finally, just as openers, the economy is absolutely key. this hyperinflation is going to be really exacerbating what remains a very fragile political situation. both inside the country, the formation of a government on the 50 years of the role but

also referred to the continuing military activity that is continuing activity from turkey into northeastern syria. the political situation, the geopolitical situation is also extremely fragile. >> one of the things that you have to think about, and when you look at the countries that are on your emergency watch list, what they share in common is difficulties in terms of governing capacity. and this is tricky, polar days particularly in syria where there is a terrorist designation. on one hand that perhaps shouldn't dictate whether or not people are designated terrorist. but we have to figure out a way, and you and your organization and other organizations like yours have the ability to work in places where the government has less capacity or may not be the ideal government. that is sort of not your point. your point is how we help people internally displaced and externally displaced. >> we are focused on the people because if you don't support

the needs of the people you are brewing up a political disaster. and i think it is very important to say -- the real common denominator is conflict. that is the big driver of extreme poverty. poverty is going down in stable countries but even when that is going up by 80% in the last 20 years, in countries that are caught up in conflict and there are 59 so-called civil conflicts going on around the world at the moment. syria is a prototype example of the modern direction of extreme poverty that is called in conflict as many outside powers are armed groups. our point is, as a humanitarian organization, always focus on the people. if the needs are not being met you know people willfully and there will be trouble. >> and i don't want to leave without reminding people to check your emergency watch list. you will learn a lot from it. sudan does remain the greatest

humanitarian crisis at the moment that you are dealing with. david, thank you for your time is always, david miliband is president and ceo of the international rescue committee and author of the book rescue, refugees and the political prices -- crisis of our time. it is important to get a sense of how tough things are for folks around the world. coming up, why texas says it decided not to study pregnancy related deaths from the first two full years since it started banning abortion and what democrats in congress are not buying that explanation. t. , most people saw 100% clear skin... ...that stayed clear, even at 5 years. serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections may occur. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or if you need a vaccine. emerge with clear skin. ask your doctor about tremfya®. ♪♪ nothing is more important than family. a family you're born into, a family you choose

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house democrats are demanding answers after texas announced it would not review pregnancy related deaths from the first two years following that states near-total abortion ban. 22 and 2023 respectively. notably those years coincide with the depths of at least three pregnant women who are unable to access timely or adequate reproductive care. on thursday democratic members of the u.s. house oversight committee reached out to texas' health agency requesting a briefing about his decision to skip these vertical years. texas state health officials have argued that skipping data from those years as part of an effort to quote, the more contemporary, end quote and the data they are studying. skipping over a backlog of older cases to deal with the

newest one. but some members of the texas maternal mortality and morbidity review committee which studies pregnancy deaths, have expressed concerns with one member telling the washington post quote, if women are dying because of delays and we have a huge new policy in texas that affects their lives, why would we skip over those years? the decision to skip those specific years of data also comes one year after texas lawmakers allocated funding toward a new maternal death tracking system that would cease sharing data with the federal database. texas, by the way, is not alone in seeming to be working to suppress data that could expose the actual toll that abortion bans have taken on the light of women. georgia disbanded its entire maternal mortality review committee after two deaths linked to the abortion ban were leaked to the press. two states with direct abortion bans with documented cases of women dying after being denied abortion care are changing the way they study or account the deaths of pregnant women. it could be a coincidence.

it could also be that the antiabortion forces in the states do not want the public, you, to know how many women have died after being delayed or denied abortion under their strict fans. here's what you need to be worried about. we often think of propaganda as the willful and active promotion of a particular idea and ideologies. but the suppression of data has long been used as a tool of propaganda, too. and it can be effective when it is allowed to happen. from big tobacco's decades long effort to suppress data linking cigarettes to cancer and big oils funding of disinformation campaigns on climate change, powerful groups have sought to bury inconvenient truth. and evade accountability. many tactics were first time pioneered by this man, widely regarded as the father of public relations and a pioneer of modern agender. dubbed the father of spin, he

believed ideological battles are won or lost through the manipulation of public perception. his ideas were first developed and tested during his time at the committee on public information, a temporary wartime agency that functioned as a state rep again arm during world war i. its mission was to sell the war to a reluctant public. describing his work as psychological warfare, he employed a number of controversial and unethical methods to engineer public support for the war including media censorship. and the dissemination of controlled narratives. at some point he came to realize his methods could also be used in peacetime. quote, what could be done for a nation at war could be done for organizations and people in a nation at peace. and so he set out to apply his methods in service of corporate america, crafting several influence campaigns including for big tobacco. he played a key role in shaping public opinion on cigarette

smoking. and a seminal book of propaganda, he described his work as pulling the wires which controlled the public mind, end quote. one of his most infamous campaigns include branding cigarettes as a symbol of women's liberation. he staged a dramatic display of women smoking during the easter parade in new york city. he then told the press to expect that women suffer just as would light up torches of freedom during the parade to show that they were equal to men. today he's remembered for undermining the democratic process and manipulating public opinion, deceiving public works. until it doesn't. in 1999 the department of justice sued tobacco companies for conspiracy to defraud and lead -- mislead the american public in part for suppression of information. the law covered biased research and concealing critical scientific data. in a store win for public

health, these companies were found liable for lying to the public about the dangers of smoking. it was a big win for public health but the lies a big tobacco took decades to entangle. if antiabortion forces are led to suppress or worse yet, not collect data on the impact of abortion bans, the truth about what happens when you deny women basic health care will be even harder to uncover. the truth is this, the rate of maternal deaths in texas alone rose by 56% from 2019 to 2022 compared to 11% nationwide. the truth is, that three pregnant women have died after being delayed or denied care under texas' abortion ban. could that be why texas is scrambling to control the narrative? we will discuss that after a break. a break. for 100% cleaner teeth. your perfect clean starts with oral-b. ♪♪ imagine checking your own heart with medical precision from anywhere. introducing kardiamobile 6l.

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please call or go online to givetosave.org to help save lives. before the break we talked about texas' announcement the state committee of pregnancy

related deaths will not be looking at cases from the first two years after the state started banning abortion and broadly how data can be used in the service of propaganda. i am joined by jason stanley, professor of philosophy at yale university and author of a racing history, how fascists rewrite the past to control the future. and law professor at new york university in cohost of the strict scrutiny podcast. welcome to both of you. melissa, thank you for filling in while i was away. it is always great to have you as a host and a guest on velshi. jason, let me start with you. texas claims skipping maternal death data from 2022 to 2023 is part of an effort to, and i'm having trouble getting my head around this, be more contemporary. getting accurate data is not a struggle in 2024 and should be a struggle in 2024. the justification doesn't actually make sense to us. it may be that only three women died it and it may be no women

died and 300 women died. we need to know what the facts are in order to inform policies. >> yeah, so it just so happens, i just wrote and published a book about this called a racing history. propaganda is the manipulation of information, to mask important political facts about the world. erasure is a characteristic example of propaganda. so, i'm going to give a few examples. textbooks, radically underestimated the number of indigenous people in the united states, when the united states asserted. textbooks i looked at said one in 10 the actual number, and that minimizes indent -- indigenous a genocide. in another example, the jim crow south history of black resistance, was erased. to minimize, to make it make -- nonindigenous people, american and other americans. well black

americans, not resist. and final example from project 2025, that they made it illegal, they recommend dismantling the national oceanic and atmospheric administration so people aren't informed about the facts of climate change. >> and this, melissa, there are so many examples. we talked about the oil industry, the cigarette industry and we can talk about guns where the gun lobby spent a lot of time making sure the cdc couldn't gather certain data. the federal government could not gather certain data. it does work until it doesn't work because if you can't use the data, it becomes harder to make the case that the policies are flawed. >> that is exactly right and jason is correct, we have seen this historically. one of the reasons i b wells, one of the famous muckrakers

from the present age was so successful is because she did what many people could not do, she went down to the south and figured out who was being lynched, how many men were lynched and publicized it ended a national issue where the south would have kept the data under wraps. we saw this with the gun lobby. we saw this with tobacco. we saw this with covid where very recently, we had -- telling us that covid deaths were stagnant but only because we weren't testing. whenever i come on your show i bring it back to the supreme court and this is no exception. one of the reasons we are seeing this found assault on the administered estate is not simply because agencies regulate to the double mint of corporate interests, it is because they collect information, information that makes it easy for the public to understand how all of these different facets of life are impacting them in a material way. >> jason, there is something about this that makes it propaganda and i think it is important to understand because we think of propaganda as

posters essay due this. but this is a form of propaganda and it is inherently undemocratic. >> absolutely. masking casualty figures in a war is classic war propaganda. look, democracy is a system where we all participate in the formation of the laws that govern us. and of the policies that we collectively undertake. without being fully informed, we cannot play that role. political freedom and a democracy is participation, in a democratic process. if you are not informed by the fact, you are really not free in a democracy. it is a form of non-freedom, a racing history and racing sexuality. >> and melissa, we do have, we have learned certainly in the last 10 years or so that democracy does rely on and informed electorate where we face information or

disinformation that weakens our democracy. but i'm not sure it is logical. i'm not sure that would form the basis of potential legal challenge. can you challenge a decision that estate makes to simply not measure something? >> i think we're going to find out in the next couple of years. i am certainly in the context of abortion but what we've seen in the states that are the most abortion hostile like texas, like idaho and georgia is that they are beginning to politicize and disband their review boards. these are standard boards that were put in place, they are often funded by federal legislation, bipartisan federal legislation that was passed in 2018 and signed into law by donald trump. at the time, reviewing maternal mortality seem to to make sense. in the wake of dobbs when we are thinking about maternal mortality in the context of restrictions on abortion access it is much more politicized so we have seen states like georgia take steps to disband their review boards, to reconstituted or perhaps with different members who might be

more amenable to particular outcome. we have seen this in texas. we have seen this in idaho. all of this is just making these scientific bodies, these review boards that are supposed to be neutral and scientifically focused on the collection and identification and review of data, and turning them into essentially a propaganda machine. and whether or not that can be challenged, i think we're going to see but the idea that these can be disbanded, i think there are procedural challenges that can be brought to that and we are likely to see those in the near future. >> jason, on the nonlegal side whether it comes to guns or cancer or climate, there were, civil society organizations and others who tried to make up for it. obviously would be best if we can get the public health data from the public health system. it if you can't, are there ways you can fight the curtailing of information? >> they are called universities. and so, it is no surprise that we have it, at the very same time as we have these attacks,

on data, we have attacks on women and gender studies. those are the academic departments where people gather this information. on black studies where they gather the kinds of information that would motivate political movements like black lives matter. there are attacks on climate change -- funding for climate change and universities. this is why we have universities and this is why these masking's of data, these erasures of data go along with attacks on schools and universities. >> amazing discussion, thank you both for the -- for being here. jason stanley is professor of -- msnbc legal analyst. coming up on the next hour, the trump team reported plan to potentially consolidate or even abolish the federal deposit insurance corporation. i will explain why the fdic is crucial to you and your money. a former chair of the fdic

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good morning. it is sunday, december 2 22nd. in less than two weeks, a new group of lawmakers will be sworn in. the final days of the 118th congress have been mired in