>> [ music ] >> and good day from msnbc world headquarters in new york city, welcome to alex wood reports, i am richard louis in for alex on this day. we are going to start this hour with no reaction to the chaos on capitol hill.

today, republicans and democrats of the current victory in the government funding showdown. democrats are highlighting passing a funding bill that did not lift the debt ceiling. >> a republican party that is not really interested in helping out working-class americans, but is really determined to enact massive tax cuts for the wealthy, the well- off, and well-connected corporations. that was the centerpiece of donald trump and elon musk's demand with respected recklessly trying to suspend the debt ceiling and secure a four to $5 trillion blank check . thankfully, we stop that from happening. and meanwhile, republicans are celebrating voting for a new funding bill with fewer pages. that's the size of the stock, what we originally presented, we started out with over 1500 pages, we got it down to 120 pages. >> they went from a 1572 page document that was a full report.

>> also new today, democrats are focused on chaos and the rocky road that led to the bills passage after the midnight deadline friday. >> it is is a predictor of what is likely to happen. we are not just going to have president-elect trump as a billionaire ridge tweeting at 4:00 a.m., we are going to have elon musk also injecting instability and how we tackle very complicated and important issues for our country. >> while republicans are pushing back on criticism in recent days of the dynamic between elon musk and president- elect trump. >> we are bringing in the richest, most successful men of the united states, in fact in the world, and president trump has got him to comment to be the government's consultant point >> the fact is that elon musk exposing the cement at every one of our offices was inundated with calls from our constituents. the american public wanted to see this change >> when elon and vivek came in and talked to us about the

committee and everybody was fired up, it had over 1 million views. next we have a president, vice president, a speaker, it feels as if elon musk is our prime minister protects unelected. >> but i mean, he has a voice, and i think a large part of that voice is a reflection of the voice of the people. >> one democrat today is offering advice on how to navigate the anticipated chaos over the next few years. >> you've got to chill out, you know? like the constant, you know, freak outs, it's not helpful. so, you know, pack a lunch. pace yourself. because he hasn't even taken office yet. also new today, the u.s. national security adviser now says trump has a genuine opportunity to be a key player in securing a nuclear deal with iran. >> iran and china actually it to me represent opportunities, not just for deterrence and pushing back, but also for diplomacy. with iran, a genuine

opportunity in my view, given their weakened state to work with the europeans, the arabs, and others to get a nuclear deal that puts iran's nuclear program back in the box. now this would be kind of interesting because it was trump who pulled out of the last nuclear deal, but maybe he can come around this time with the situation iran finds itself in, and actually delivered a nuclear deal that curves iran's nuclear ambitions for the long- term. >> all right, we have reporters and analysts in places, covering all these new development speed we want to start with nbc's julie tsirkin on capitol hill. julie, good afternoon to you and what are we hearing now from lawmakers today following the last minute passing of that spending bill this weekend? >> reporter: after neither side really got what they wanted, especially after that debt ceiling demand by president- elect trump was dropped out of the final version of the bill that ultimately passed the house and the senate and ended up keeping the lights on until march 14th, both sides are trying to take credit for that. you have democrats who are pushing back and saying we kept

the final package from including a suspension of the debt ceiling for two years, that is because trump wanted that to happen on president biden's watch. he doesn't want democrats to hold that over his head next year as he is trying to pass his ambitious tax cut plans and other matters, including securing the border and mass deportations, and then you also have republicans on the flipside saying they notched a win, because the bill that originally speaker johnson negotiated with democrats went from close to 1600 pages down to 117 pages, and that is of course in part because of the pressure campaign we saw by elon musk all over x. we heard republicans saying that that means that their constituents are going to be calling their phones a lot more. we saw this happen and play out already before trump has even taken office. that said, though, i want you to take a listen to what both sides of the aisle are saying this morning. we have senator chris , an ally of president biden, speaking about the deal. on the flipside, you also hear from mullen, the senator from

oklahoma. >> president trump is a negotiator because he is a very successful businessman and he put on the table what he wanted but he wanted the debt limit on, but you negotiated all the facts that the democrats put in there and still got a good bill. so, the success goes to president trump >> yes, in a narrow sense, it was a political went in that president-elect trump demanded all sorts of things, even threatened to primary republicans who didn't support him, and then failed to get most of what he wanted. but you are right to focus on what fell out of the package. >> reporter: the reality is it speaker johnson gets re-elected on january 3rd, that might be the easiest moment for him, and that is not going to be an easy moment by any stretch of the imagination, and that is because even though republicans do have control over the house and the senate and the white house next year, they have a very narrow margin. you're still going to have to have democrats voting for measures, especially ones that are must pass, including funding the government, and trump knows that.

>> all right, julie, thank you so much for your report from capitol hill. let's go over to phoenix where president-elect trump gave his first rally style speeches since the election. good afternoon to you, what did trump say at this conservative event? >> reporter: well, richard, it was a wide-ranging speech, but one thing that we know is that trump took the time to pray as a turning point for mobilizing young voters ahead of the november election, priding this organization for the inroads he was able to make with young voters and touting the fact that he over performed with that that cohort of voters compared to past republican candidates. we also saw him tout the fact that he made inroads with black voters and latino voters, and used those gains as evidence of the mandate. that he says america gave him to enact his policies. richard, one thing that i did find interesting is trump took the time to respond to a narrative that we have been hearing democrats tried to perpetuate, and it is one that elon musk, the person running the presidency, democrats have been pointing to the funding

dispute that happened earlier this week when elon musk took to twitter and said that he was against that government funding bill and ultimately failed. donald trump directly reference that during his remarks today, arguing and making clear that he is in fact the president. take a listen to what he had to say. >> you know, there on a new kick. russia, russia, russia, ukraine, ukraine, ukraine, all the different hoaxes. the new one is president trump has ceded the presidency to elon musk. no. no. that's not happening. >> [ laughter ] >> but elon has done an amazing job. but no, he is not going to be president, that i can tell you. and i am safe, you know why? he can't be, he wasn't born in this country. >> richard, we also saw donald trump continue to stand by his cabinet picks, even those that have been on the more controversial side, whether

that is pete hegseth who of course is trump's selection to lead the defense department, as well as robert f. kennedy, jr., selected to lead the department of health and human services. >> all right, thank you so much for that report. let's bring in political reporter for axios and molly ball, senior political correspondent. good to see both of you. molly, starting with you, i was reading your article front page on the wall street journal, and you said and it "until the best laid plans melted down on capitol hill this past week, republicans had been riding high." tell us about this dynamic and how the mood in the caucus has shifted. >> well, on the one hand, it is hard to overstate how good republicans were feeling up until this week. the republicans on capitol hill in both the house and senate, there was this feeling of euphoria coming off the election. they, i think, did not expected to do quite as well as they did, the really complete victory that they had, securing

a trifecta with control of the house and senate, and of course the white house. and so, if you recall, when trump came to washington shortly after the election, he was welcomed by the republicans in the house and senate, he threw his support behind mike johnson, it seemed like everything was going to be smooth sailing. there will may have been a little bit of indigestion about some of the more exotic cabinet nominees, but really, the prevailing mood was team spirit and full speed ahead, and that sort of crashed into reality, which is that they have very narrow margins. of course, at this point, up until january 3rd, they don't actually have control of the congress, and that was part of the problem this week, but it is not going to get much easier when mike johnson has to win the speakership with an outright majority in the house, when they face this next funding deadline in march, when they have to raise the debt ceiling, when they are trying to pass partyline reconciliation bills, all with these very narrow margins, and with as we have seen over the past week a divided republican party where different members

have different ideas about what those priorities should be. so, it is not going to get any easier. the first trump administration was very much like this, but i think there was a lot of sort of amnesia and magical thinking until this week when it all sort of hit the fan. >> that amnesia went away. steph, in your latest article, you say "marking the third time the influential voices surrounding trump have failed to get exactly what they wanted." what does this tell you about the kind of influence trump has over the republican party on the state? >> look, there is no question that he has extraordinary influence, and what i am not saying is that a tweet from elon musk or a post on's truth social on the president-elect won't change anything, it truly does impact and influence a large number of republicans on the hill. but we have seen that those efforts online, when you see elon musk and trump allies are reacting to the news online, they are better at closing plans of ending discussions about a particular nominee or a

particular idea, but they are not as good at pushing forward in a positive way the plans that they want to see carried out on the hill. whether that is the leader they wanted in the senate, they pushed hard for senator rick scott, but senator john soon, who was kind of the leading contender throughout the race ended up winning. they saw again, some of these same voices online, typically on x, pushing for matt gaetz to carry on and be the attorney general in the trump administration, that of course fell apart. and again, most recently, we saw clear efforts from the vice president, president-elect, elon musk, and others to have the debt ceiling dealt with now. that was not included. that was not something they were able to get through. so, i think we are going to continue to see this kind of pattern as we move into this new congress. the past week, the chaos we have seen over the past week is really just an early glimpse of

what it could look like every time there is a major piece of legislation that needs to get through both chambers, and it is interesting to note that for the first time in modern congressional history, the house will have a smaller margin than the senate, meaning that the senate may be able to get things done that they just simply can't get past the house because we have such a small majority there. >> so, molly, in the end, both sides to current victory for the final bill that will keep the government open until the new year. who do you think is the real winner in all of this and the biggest losers as well? >> well, look, anytime the government stays funded and doesn't shut down, the american people win, so i think that that should be the baseline here. and all of the members of congress, as well as the reporters in washington, are happy that they kept the government open, and that they get to go home for christmas and they are not stuck here working over the break. it was a bipartisan deal in the end, which is what they could have gotten in the beginning. there is a feeling that elon

musk sent him on a bit of a wild goose chase to get them something that was not really a better deal than they were originally offered. so, you know, it is a bipartisan way in and i think you have to say that that is a win for democrats because it was democrats who held out for that bipartisan deal and left the republicans to their own devices to see if they could pass something on a partyline basis. it was the republicans wanted to walk away from that bipartisan deal and do something that was republican only, and so, although they got a lot of what they wanted and they, too, can say that they were part of a bipartisan deal, i think it is a loss for that sense of solidarity that republicans were counting on, the sense of party unity, and the idea that they will be able to do things on a partyline basis going forward, given the mathematical realities that steph was talking about. >> steph, agree with those winners and losers? who are you thinking? >> you know, one person was mentioned to me, i actually

asked senate republicans this question exactly, and what this person told me it was that one of the biggest losers of this past week is first of all speaker mike johnson, who is having to be re-elected in the house, and we are already hearing from house representatives who are not sure that they're willing to back him a second time. he can only afford to lose two members in his conference in order to keep his title as speaker. we arty have thomas massey saying he plans to vote for someone else in a growing list of republicans, particularly those more conservative republicans in the house, were ey are going to vote. the other person the senator mentioned was trump himself, s power, and that how all this went down could embolden more republicans on the help to disregard some of the specifics of trump's claims and demands. >> let's stay on that. molly, you said in your article the shutdown expense was not just a rude shock for the republicans, but it pre-staged

the likely chaos to come in the new year. what are you thinking here? what will that look like when the house resumes with an even more narrow gop majority as steph was mentioning a little bit ago, then they have right now? >> well, there is a high potential for chaos as i think we have both been talking about, in that speaker vote which happens on january 3rd. so, very quickly after the new year, we could see this start to play out, and even if johnson survives and doesn't have to go through that humiliating days of multiple ballots like his predecessor kevin mccarty did two years ago, there are deadlines coming up very shortly thereafter. you know, i just wanted to add to the winners and losers discussion that i think it is interesting to consider whether elon musk won or lost in this whole episode. he was a winner in the sense that we did see him successfully throw his weight around. a single private citizen, albeit one who owns a social media platform, with a series of social media posts, was able to take down a piece of major legislation negotiated between

the two political parties in congress. so, in that sense, he is a winner. on the other hand, i think you also have to say he is a loser and that he didn't get what he had originally called for, which is less spending. this bill doesn't spend any less than the original deal would have. trump didn't get his debt limit demand, although that wasn't something that you want was specifically calling for, but it is also a loss for his style of politics. as steph has been saying, this is not the first time we have seen him try to govern by tweet, and the republicans on capitol hill essentially ignore him and say they're going to do what they want. so, it is an interesting case for elon going forward, how he decides to try to use his political capital, given that history protects molly paul, thank you so much, staff as well, have a great day. two workers at two major companies are on the picket line and now both strikes are expanding. back in 90 seconds with that. 9

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new information now on the worker demonstrations happening at two major companies. some amazon delivery drivers and starbucks baristas are on the picket lines ahead of the christmas, hanukkah, and new year's holidays. david joins us from los angeles. good day to you. where are amazon and starbucks employees at now in their efforts? >> well, richard, these strikes started just a few days ago, on thursday and friday.

and you know, each of these groups of workers is looking for something different. in starbucks's case, they want to finish negotiating a contract that they had started negotiating earlier this year. in amazon's case, they are trying just to be recognized as amazon employees and to begin negotiations, which of course requires the company to recognize them as a union and as employees. nothing has really changed since these strikes started, in terms of either of the companies positions. what seems to be changing in some of these actions gaining some steam and becoming larger. the teamsters are reporting that some amazon warehouse workers are walking out in certain facilities in queens, that would be significant because so far, this has been focused primarily on the drivers. and the starbucks stores that have organized and are participating in this action are growing to more cities than there were in just the beginning. at first, it was just new york, chicago, and l.a. i believe that has grown to include columbus, denver, and pittsburgh. now, that is where things currently stand. and the

question of whether things will move forward depends on how disruptive these labor actions become, especially in the coming days, the holidays. >> david, can you dive deeper into what amazon and starbucks workers are looking to negotiate here? and the time with the busy holidays, that being intentional, correct? >> yeah, definitely intentional. it comes down to conditions and what the workers say are unfair labor practices. again, the amazon case is particularly interesting, because this is the teamsters, one of the largest sort of most recognized and politically influential unions saying that they are entitled to represent workers at amazon. warehouse workers, drivers primarily as well. but those drivers who we all see multiple times a day in our cities and our neighborhoods are officially not employed by amazon, they are employed by third-party contractors, so amazon basically says they have no ground there, they have no obligation to recognize these

workers are the union that is endeavoring to represent them. now again, in amazon case especially, the timing with the holidays is particularly significant, because of course people are scrambling to order things on amazon. the action has the potential to be disruptive. i will say, richard, so far, these labor actions seem to have been relatively small, but part of the goal of course is to increase the share of workers at these companies who are organized and participating in these actions, but also to send a message to the public and to send a message to the executives of these companies. here is what one unit leader had to say on this question a little earlier this week when the strike started. take a look. >> it is the holidays, people want to get their goods. this company employs 1.5 million people, and this is a stand to unionize, to raise their standard of living up. they want to negotiate a contract. they want health benefits, they want pensions, they want to be

able to live the middle-class that america is all about, and this trillion dollar company that employs 1.5 million people in the united states doesn't want to bargain with them. this is an unfair labor practice. >> whether these strikes become disruptive, again, particularly the amazon strike, it will determine whether these companies begin to offer any kind of change in their positions. richard quest >> david, thank you. next, the new twist in one of the charges luigi mangione is facing. s luigi mangione is facing. to get prebiotic, plant-based fiber. with the same amount of fiber as 2 cups of broccoli. metamucil gummies. the easy way to get your daily fiber.

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tomorrow is arraignment day for luigi mangione, the suspect in the killing of unitedhealthcare ceo brian thompson. he will face 11 charges in new york, 19 days after he was caught on surveillance video shooting thompson in the back. now, defense attorney and nbc legal analyst danny, thanks for being here. what might we expect this coming week is to >> arraignments are important procedural events, but there are not a lot of exciting things going on. it is going to be the basics, the charges, the rights, an opportunity at vail, bail is not going to happen. in and out, maybe 15 to 20 minutes, maybe add a few more minutes because it is a high- profile case and getting people in and out of the courtroom is

going to be difficult. meanwhile, on the federal case, there is a preliminary hearing set for january 18th, although that may go away if the federal authorities can indict him, present their case to a grand jury and get them indicted before them, that gets rid of the need for a probable cause hearing. >> let's talk about this fascinating debate and now emerging over the terrorism charge, and i'm going to look at what msnbc columnist was saying, she says it sends a message that society will not tolerate political violence, while of former assistant man had nda also saying it is a mistake, complicating the case and taking on a higher burden. where do you land on this? >> i see both sides. for example, when you think about how mangione may have tried to intimidate the population of healthcare ceos or the healthcare industry, it seems like it fits in the definition of terrorism, which is an act of violence to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. but on the other hand, new york courts have said the mere fact that you shoot someone with a gun and cause fear in the community, that alone is not

terrorism. in fact, new york's law was enacted just after 9/11, that was a kind of terrorism that legislators were talking about when they enacted this terrorism enhancement for first- degree murder. so, it is not just any act that causes fear, you're going to have to meet that definition of terrorism, and they may have overcharged here, and that is a political risk. i wonder if maybe the manhattan d.a.s office felt like you're getting a little too much eat, because they originally charged with second-degree murder. not because it wasn't a serious crime, but that is because that is new york's general murder statute. the first-degree murder has a bunch of factors that were not present, except for potentially terrorism. that is again not going to be an easy left. even though it may seem like one from the outset, the courts have said this doesn't apply in every case. >> you know, the terrorism charge itself doesn't open this up to some political theater point we saw new york's mayor and that one picture we are showing to you here, showing up

in a prominent way, and backlash on social media as well from that, intensifying sympathy for the suspect. are they giving him a soapbox here? xi think that was probably not a good idea. i mean, i live right now -- and near where that helipad is. that is right next to a busy highway, it is as high-profile as high-profile gets, along with him being flanked by law enforcement, dozens of law enforcement officers, and at times the mayor. so, this may not have been great for optics, but the burden remains the same. if they are choosing to charge him with terrorism, they are going to have to meet that heightened burden to prove terrorism, but of course, there is always the fallback of second-degree murder, which is your basic new york intentional murder. and then there is a is the question to be had whether the federal authorities should have charged them at all. under federal policy, unless there is some specific federal interest that needs to be

vindicated that is not being addressed by that state prosecution, maybe they shouldn't have brought it, but the reality is this is just a federal policy of the doj, they don't always have to follow it, there is no remedy for a defendant who says you didn't follow the policy. >> you know, the suspect also facing four federal charges in a separate case tied to the same killing. we will have to go and get to that the next time we sit together, danny, but thank you again. danny looking into the case of luigi mangione. a classified briefing that took place for more than three hours may have only deepened the drones ministry. he joins me next to tell me how and what he can. and what he can. ealthy habits so you can lose the weight and keep it off. yeah, glp-1s starting at $149. that's noom smart. noom. the smart way to lose weight. narrator: at this very moment, children at st. jude are fighting to survive. with a gift right now, you can join the battle to save lives. katy: without saint jude, i don't know where we would be.

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new today, outgoing white house national security adviser jake sullivan is warning there is a real risk in the weekend of iran pursuing a new nuclear weapon. >> if you are in iran right now and you're looking around at the fact that your conventional [ inaudible ] has been reduced, your proxies have been reduced, your main client state has been eliminated, assad has fallen, it is no wonder there are voices saying maybe we need to go for a nuclear weapon right now. they're saying it publicly, in fact. there saying maybe we have to revisit our nuclear doctrine, a doctrine that has said we will have a civilian nuclear program and certain capabilities, but we are not going for a nuke.

that is a real risk. >> are joining us now, democratic congressman from california, dr. ami, on the house foreign affairs and intelligence committee. representative, good to see you. jake sullivan saying in this interview, they are briefing the incoming administration about the risk and there is a genuine opportunity for donald trump to get involved in getting a nuclear deal with iran, even though he was the one that pulled out of the last one. how do you see this playing out in the next administration? that's certainly the middle east as changed quite a bit. you have seen the fall of assad in syria, you have seen hezbollah diminished, you have seen iran really being threatened and israel has done a good job eliminated a lot of the rounds at defensive capabilities. so, yes, there is a risk that they could pursue a nuclear weapon, but there is also that opportunity that maybe you can reshape a different middle east. saudi arabia still remains at the table, willing to recognize israel. obviously, that has to come with palestinian recognition. so, a lot of moving parts that could go in the positive direction, could go in the

negative direction. >> representative, after congress averted the government shutdown this weekend, moving to the big topic of this weekend, you said brinksmanship via tweet is not the way to govern, but that republicans from one perspective ultimately went out here after all that political chaos. >> you know, i think we actually got a pretty good deal for the american people, we avoided a shutdown, especially around the holidays. i also think you got a preview of what is going to start on january 3rd. first off, with that speaker vote, is mike johnson going to get the votes? and if he doesn't, is there anyone on the republican side that can govern? we saw elon musk starting to weigh in on policy on votes, how is that going to play out? we saw 38 republicans pushed back on donald trump and his debt ceiling, so, it is going to be a very interesting congress. i am not going to be bored. with a very narrow house majority, they are going to have to negotiate and compromise with democrats.

>> representative, you are never bored, that is for sure. dr. ami bera, what is the conversation on capitol hill about the influence of elon musk and what he had on these negotiations, and influence he will have going forward on donald trump once he takes office? >> well, we saw how this played out, right? so, speaker johnson, leader hakeem jeffries, they negotiated and we negotiated for months, came up with a bipartisan deal that had both republican and democratic priorities in there. that deal looked like it was all set to come up for a vote, and then elon musk got on this platform and used his influence on x to drum up a lot of grass- roots republican support against that bipartisan bill. that forced president elect trump to weigh in and scuttle that deal. there was no plan b. ultimately, we salvaged some of those negotiations, got it across the finish line, but again, i think

that is going to play out quite a bit. >> a little more than a week, two weeks as you enter the 119th. what did the funding fight foreshadow to you in terms of how republicans will operate over the next four years under donald trump? >> yeah, i think there is this false assumption that if president-elect trump says hey, vote this way, you're going to see all the republicans fall in line. i know folks like thomas massey, we are classmates, and i respect tom massey because he is very consistent in how he votes on the debt and the deficit, on raising the debt ceiling, et cetera. so, in a narrow majority where you can only really lose two votes, you know, i don't think donald trump is going to have the same sway as he did in his first term. now, is he willing to negotiate with us? we are happy to meet them at the 50 yard line, but it has got to be the 50 yard line.

if they start moving the ball over toward their direction, i think they will end up losing democratic votes as you saw this past week. >> talking about the midfield, congress did have one bipartisan win this week with the passage of the social security fairness act. how did this help public workers and what about the concerns about the $190 billion price tag over the next decade could push it over into insolvency? >> yeah, you saw a bipartisan group of members of congress, senators come together to shore up what really has been a challenge for teachers, law enforcement, public sector workers, to make sure that if they have paid into social security, there are at least able to get a portion of what they paid into. i agree with you, richard, that we do have to come back and look at social security in total. congressman john larson from connecticut always has been a champion. perhaps we can raise the social security tax and raise the cap on the attacks. millionaires and billionaires are paying more of their income at a fair share into social

security. again, i think you would find some bipartisan support for that. we will see what happens, you know, we know we are going to do tax reform in this next congress, so is that a place where we could do some things that actually help benefit the working class, the middle class? >> let's move to drum sightings but as a house of the intelligence committee, you joined the over three hour classified briefing this week on drone sightings, here is what lawmakers told nbc afterwards. >> we spent a lot of time in this hearing asking the question in every way imaginable as to whether or not any of these sightings in new jersey, connecticut, anywhere they are being cited, our federal government operations, and they are not, we were assured. and we asked this question over and over again. they are not government operations to snip radiation, gas, recovery, anything else. >> to date, they have it set anything to indicate there are foreign actors or even little green men who are working on the american people. >> representative, you said there is no evidence that there

is something nefarious going on right now, but a cbs poll today saying 78% of americans believe the government is not sharing everything it knows about these drones. is there something we are not hearing publicly about this situation that you can tell us about? is it just creating a breeding ground for conspiracy as this story moves on? >> yeah, in full transparency, there is nothing that we heard in that hearing that made me concerned at all. the fbi and intelligence community are taking this very seriously. they have moved the equipment to improve detection of the drones, so, to date, nothing nefarious has been seen. that said, what was exposed in that hearing was to have seen this rapid proliferation of drones hobbyists. amazon talking about delivering packages. that does signal to congress that we have to come up with better mechanisms to track all these drones, to make sure whoever is making the drones incorporate radio frequencies

in there, so if you see something in there, we can identify what that drone is. but there are not going to be fewer drones, there are going to be more drones in the future, as we have got to legislate in a bipartisan way, and i think that hearing was a wake-up call that said, hey, let's get this done. >> representative ami bera, thank you. >> thank you, be well. merry christmas. >> to you as well. next, the remarkable development involving enrollment at harvard law. enrollment at harvard law. rolaids' dual-active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ whether your phone's broken or old, we've got you. with verizon, anyone can trade in any phone, any condition. it's your last chance to get iphone 16 pro with apple intelligence, on us.

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new numbers showing the impact of the supreme court striking down affirmative action. the number of first-year black and hispanic students enrolled at harvard law school this year plummeted almost by half, according to enrollment data released last week by the american bar association. this data comes in the first year after the supreme court struck down affirmative action, something that many education advocates feared would lead to a decline in diversity in higher education. joining us now is charles coleman, a civil rights attorney, legal analyst, and host of the charles coleman podcast. charles, good to see you. the new york times reporting this data that's the lowest number of black students at harvard law since the 1960s. also, the university of north carolina saw a decline as well this year in diversity with its first-year students, however, it is worth noting in all of this that at some schools, including stanford, enrollment

for black and hispanic students did increase. how do you get the net out of all of this, what is the significance of what you're seeing here, charles? >> well, richard, it is good to be with you but i think the biggest take away for me is that more likely than not, these statistics are proving that the supreme court got it wrong. what i mean by that is ultimately, the supreme court's decision made it okay for schools to not consider the notion of race with respect to its applicants, and that was a huge mistake, because as you have already laid out, in many instances, it led to the diversification of their student bodies, and this is a big problem because it then impacts who gets into the workforce, who gets opportunities, earning potential, so on and so forth. for me, despite the places in which the numbers have gone up, this is an unsurprising, but very unfortunate not to reality of what many of us expected to happen and knew what was going to happen, it has very little to do with all of vacations, because keep in mind, richard,

legacy admissions are untouched. legacy admissions that have nothing to do with someone's qualifications other than someone else before then went to an institution still remain okay. so, this again shows that the supreme court simply got it wrong and this was not the time to remove the race-based considerations as part of their mission. >> you are saying that the landmark ruling of limiting affirmative action, that it radically transformed how colleges attract diversity and jeopardize representation. you were talking about this just a moment ago, how do you anticipate the real-world implications of this to play out, as we look downstream, judges and more? >> i think you have to understand exactly how widespread this decision is. you are talking about, number one, access to admissions in higher education, which then in turn impacts access to basic things like internships, which then have an effect on jobs,

which have an effect on promotions, earning potential, and then just you are populating a particular field or endeavor. all of these things are impacted by this decision, as fundamentally, richard, civil rights are about access, that's really what it is. and by taking this opportunity away, by limiting colleges and what it is that they can consider in terms of creating a diverse tapestry of a student body, what you're doing is you are preventing people from having the sort of access that will enable them to achieve later in life, and that is what we are going to see, not only in school, but also across industries where different professions will suffer from a lack of diversity. >> all right, two feathers of the same bird potentially happening at the same time, the erasure of affirmative action and higher education coming as colleges nationwide shutting down diversity, equity, and inclusion initiatives. republican lawmakers including president-elect trump have promised a nationwide crackdown on such programs. can you elaborate here, charles, on why these programs were valuable to begin with and what are going to be the consequences of their elimination in addition to what

we have already been talking about? >> you know, i think people would like to believe that we live in a racially neutral society, and i think for people who are intent on hanging onto that, it is willful ignorance, it is willful turning of their own eyes away from the reality that is experienced by so many different underrepresented and marginalized people in america. when you have these sorts of programs or initiatives that are intended to dismantle d.e.i., what you're doing is you are essentially saying you're not wanted here, you are not needed here, and you are not valued here, and that is a very important message that is very destructive and problematic when you're talking about such a wide swath of americans and who we are. this is something that is going to have a continued impact, not only on education, but when you're talking about who is available to enter the workforce in different industries, for different professions, they are not going to be there. and what we have already seen, what we arty know is that a

diverse workforce is a more productive workforce and more innovative workforce and more successful work or speak without that, you are literally handicapping industries and being able to perform at optimal levels, so this is going to have a bigger effect and everything we are seeing just now is going to have a widespread effect in terms of widening the gap between the haves and have-nots. >> charles, click on, jeff neill, spokesperson for harvard law saying in a statement that "harvard law school remains committed both to following the law and to fostering an on- campus community and legal profession that reflects different dimensions of human experience." charles, what you make of that statement? >> i don't make much of it because of harvard law wants to rely on legacy admissions, then you can miss me with everything you are saying. what you're using is a bunch of word salad to try and say we are going to follow the law and if we get a diverse body without it, that would be great. and really, what we have to be thinking about is who is deciding to lead the charge around trying to figure out truly innovative ways that are going to make sure that

diversity of some kind is maintained on college campuses and for postgraduate learning? >> yeah, innovation is needed. charles coleman, thank you as always, good to see you. all right, that will do it for me on this edition of alex whitney reports. i am richard lee. we will be back. prime weekend is next. prime weekend is next. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see. (limu squawks) only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ big news for mahomes! i'm switching to iphone 16 pro at t-mobile! it's built for apple intelligence. that's like peanut butter on jelly... on gold. get four iphone 16 pro on us, plus four lines for $25 bucks. what a deal. ya'll giving it away too fast t-mobile, slow down. ( ♪♪ )

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