that will do it for me, thanks for watching. on behalf of my team, we all want to wish you happy holidays. follow us on x, instagram, tiktok, and bluesky and catch clips of the show on youtube. don't go anywhere, ayman is next.

good evening. tonight on ayman, after the government averts a shutdown, house speaker mike johnson remains in the hot seat. plus, as trump's inaugoration years, january 6th defendants are emboldened by a promise of a pardon. and i will speak with the palestinian american who says he is suing the state department for breaking u.s. law and its handling of gaza. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's do it. next [ music ] congressman mike johnson was never meant to be speaker of the house. the little-known extremist legislator was plucked from obscurity and october of last year after kevin mccarthy was tossed aside. and when the republican caucus proved too extreme and too chaotic to be governed, donald trump's endorsement was all johnson needed to be placed a few heartbeats away from the presidency. well, today, after elon musk and donald trump teamed up to

torpedo johnson's government spending bill and brought the u.s. government to the brink of being shut down, johnson now finds himself in the same bind that mccarthy wasn't more than a year ago. his crime? well, with an extremely thin republican majority, johnson had to team up with democrats to avoid a shutdown. and it wasn't just him, 170 republicans also voted for defiant trump and elon musk's threats about primary challenges to anyone stepping out of line. but according to leading maga voices like steve bannon, any bipartisanship is a no-no, just take a listen. >> we don't need partisanship now. we need hyper partisanship now. the conversation is over. >> bannon also said that it is time for johnson to go, but it is not just outside voices. this week, congressman thomas massey became the first house republicans essay he will not

be voting for johnson as speaker of the house. in a phone interview with nbc's garrett this week, when trump was asked if he still has confidence in johnson, the best support he could muster for johnson was we will see. not very promising. but in fairness to johnson, he is not only top republican having his authority questioned elon musk has now wedged himself right in the middle of the trump transition team, and everyone is starting to wonder if the world's richest man is now, i don't know, calling the shots instead of the 78-year-old lame-duck president that is donald trump. republican texas congressman tony said in an interview today that it feels like elon musk is our prime minister. and a clear sign that this idea that musk is the boss is getting under his skin, trump told an audience of conservative activists in phoenix today that he is in charge and he will stay in charge based on a technicality. >> the new one is president trump has ceded the presidency

to elon musk. no. no. [ laughter ] that is not happening. >> [ laughter ] >> the but elon has done an amazing job. isn't it nice to have smart people that we can rely on? so we want to thank him. but no, he is not going to be president, that i can tell you. and i am safe, you know why? he can't be, he wasn't born in this country. that's a yeah, so with serious leadership and governing and the party about to take over the senate, the house, the white house, that depends on who you ask. congressman jasmine crockett had this to say to my colleague, alex wagner. >> there is no fix in this without the democrats, we have seen this over and over, and i'm just going to sit back and sit mighty and wait for them to figure it out. >> then you have the other side of the spectrum, senator john fetterman had this to say this

morning. >> i'm not rooting against him. if you are rooting against the president, you're rooting against the nation and i am not ever going to be where i want a president to fail. so, country first. i know that has become like a cliche, but it happens to be true. >> we will see which route the government -- democrats take, and whether republicans can get their actual house in order. kicking things off this hour, jennifer moran and most of that is it just me or have we all lost our minds podcast. and democratic pollster, executive vice president, and principal at bendixen international, it is great to have both of you with us. jennifer, before we get to the democrats, we have seen how quickly the republican house speaker's race or what may be a close race could lose control of their caucus. it just seems like it comes with the territory in that this chaos actually proceeded trump's first term. why do you think that is, why

do you think we are seeing a replay of this? >> well, nobody forgets the chaos that the republican house has put our country through just over the last two years, much less the last eight years or 10 years. you know, there continues to be division within the republican party while they are clearly all in line behind trump and they're all on board for trump, they're not all on board for mike johnson. they weren't all on board for kevin mccarthy. and the idea -- you know, i love john fetterman talking about country first. the republican party i knew used to run on that idea, that principal. they have completely lost it during the trump era. you know, when you realize the degree to which elon musk is influencing things like the bills that come to the floor and whether or not the house members are going to support them, if people are curious about the next speaker of the house, maybe we should ask him. >> cannot mike johnson actually survived if he is faced with a

challenge? does it even matter? are these republican house leaders just interchangeable at this point, because it will ultimately come down to president musk and his vice president donald trump? >> yeah, ayman, i think elon is going to function more as a copresident. trump clearly is not going to seed the role himself, but while he is off playing golf and doing things that he doesn't want to do when it comes to the presidency, i think musk will fill in that role. but look, when it comes to mike johnson, one of the things you're going to have to realize is this do-nothing republican congress of the last few years, they're going to look like the most efficient congress of all time compared to what is coming in just a matter of weeks with this new congress. i don't think mike johnson survives. i think he did the ultimate sin, which was actually trying to govern, i think he didn't understand the assignment. the assignment here is not to try to move the country forward and to make things better and

to keep the government functioning, it is quite the opposite as we saw this week. it is actually the mandate from musk and trump to try to destroy and break the government, so, johnson simply said, look, i'm just trying to make it better for us, let's not shut down the government on the brink of christmas, that is going to create a lot of chaos. he did not understand that chaos is exactly what the recipe is for the musk-trump presidency, and he is going to pay for it with his speakership. i fully expect for there to be a brand-new speaker elected when the new congress is sworn in and the leadership elections are held, and that is going to have the ultimate chilling effect, ayman. that new president is going to send a message, once they are in, this is what happens if you don't follow the trump command, however ridiculous, however crazy, to the letter, to the law. >> the jennifer, this idea that musk is now in charge, it is not going to go anywhere, at least for the foreseeable future, he cannot be fired.

at the end of the day, is the world's richest man, he is a top trump donor, he is starting to become more and more influential with his republican circles because of the money that he has two wheels. it has gotten to the point where trump is now defending himself and reasserting that he is the boss. will you have to tell musk to back off at some point, and can he musk has some leverage over him? >> that's what i was going to say, it doesn't really matter, he can tell musk whatever he wants, musk is going to stay and do whatever he wants. what you saw coming out of trump's mouth with those remarks that you used at the beginning of all of this was his narcissism at play. god forbid anybody should knowledge that there is somebody else on the field there who might unseat him or somehow, you know, undermine his authority. but there is no question that elon musk is in charge. look, you know, we talk a lot about the different types of government, and oligarchy is a

word that we are going to start hearing a lot more often in this country. sure, there are a ton of people out there who give lots of money to candidates on both sides of the aisle, but elon musk is the richest man in the world, he has $1 billion worth of contracts with the united states government, i believe. and he is clearly placing himself in charge. donald trump can say whatever he wants. musk spent the money to get him elected in the swing states, he has threatened to put the money into unseating republicans who don't vote for transit nominees, and it is very clear with what we saw unfold this week as johnson was trying to get the bill passed, that it was musk who stepped in and said no, so anyone who thinks that there is going to be a single day in the next four years were elon musk and his money isn't primarily in charge is imagining things. >> fernand, i wanted to get your reaction to this unhinged speech that trump gave earlier today in phoenix at the

conservative turning point usa conference, where he went on about taking back control of the panama canal. listen to this. >> has anyone ever heard of the panama canal? because we are being ripped off at the panama canal like we are being ripped off everywhere else. he just said take it back, that is a good idea. if the principle is both moral and legal of this magnanimous gesture of giving are not followed, then we will demand that the panama canal be returned to the united states of america. >> [ cheers and applause ] >> in full, quickly, and without question. to the officials of panama, please be guided accordingly. >> so of course, the president of panama rightfully put out a statement after trump's threats, saying that every square meter of the panama canal belongs to panama and will continue belonging to panama. trump shot back on truth social, saying we will see about that, with a flag.

he posted a picture afterwards with the u.s. flag there on the canal that says welcome to the united states canal. he is not even president yet, fernand, and he is already making these unhinged threats to a geopolitically and significant country in our hemisphere. one that we rely on. >> oh, i would take these threats extraordinarily seriously. if i were panama, i would be extremely worried right now, just like last week, there was a lot of laughter about the fact that maybe they reappropriated canada as the 51st state. you know, i don't think trump and musk are joking with some of these maneuvers. look, elections have consequences. we have to understand that the united states of america as we know it today, as we will know it after january 20th of next year is no longer. i think you have to take these threats and understand what is around them.

there are a lot of national resources and a lot of the states you want to be able to control, access points, and when you think about what is behind this, also the idea that they want to destroy whatever had been american credibility, american moral authority, american prestige, that is all in line, ayman, with these types of comments. so, we could laugh about them, but i suggest we consider them very seriously, because very soon, we are going to start to see trump implement some of these threats that people think are a little crazy right now. >> that's exactly why i wanted to get your thoughts on it. on this show, we saw that and said they may have laughed at it at turning points usa, but i saw that and i thought immediately, this is the new era that we live in, threats against the neighbors, threats of aggression against other sovereign countries, and it is not something that we can be just completely dormant about when we see and hear from the president of the united states. jennifer, fernand, please stick around. next up, we are going to talk about how some january 6th

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somewhere on a different timeline, u.s. district judge tanya chutkan would currently be presiding over a lengthy trial in the case of a former president trying to subvert the results of an election but instead, we are in this reality where last week, she sentenced another member of the january 6th mob to present as president- elect donald trump skates by without any accountability.

during that sentencing, tanya chutkan says she has repeatedly assured police officers still traumatized by the events of that day with the idea that the rule of law still applies. she added, "i am not sure i can do that very convincingly these days." u.s. district judge a barrel echoed that sentiment when he is sentenced a different rioter who stormed the senate floor. she lamented, there are politicians on the hill still trying to rewrite the history. those politicians include a group of republican lawmakers recently invited a generous felon to donald trump's second inauguration, and now we are seeing a number of insurrectionists asking judges for permission to attend trump's in operation in front of the same u.s. capitol they swarmed on january 6th four years ago. jennifer and fernand are back with me now. fernand, it is hard for me not to feel what tanya chutkan is saying when you see that trump is emboldened and he is emboldening the rioters and

promising to pardon them on day one, within the first few minutes, as he recently said in time magazine, of his presidency. >> ayman, that is not an accident, that is extremely important for trump to do on the first day, because the moment that he pardons those january 6th insurrectionists, who it must be said over and over again, tried to overturn our democracy, tried to end and overturn a legitimate election in the united states. the moment that that happens, donald trump will be turning the rule of law into the rule of trump. this is designed to send a very clear message around the country and around the world. anyone who breaks the law in the name of trumpism will be pardons, will be allowed to do what they are able to do and can do. and that is the message that is being sent, that is why you see this just aghast reaction by those that are still liable and uphold the constitution on the federal bench, especially judge chutkan and some of the others that you just cited, but

let's not mistake what that is about, to send that message. and then the moment that donald trump and/or his administration either indicts or charges liz cheney or adam kinzinger with a crime, then we will know that we are no longer in a democracy. >> you see, jennifer, these people and certainly the way judges like a barrel i will have been calling them out, you see them proving her point by inviting a january 6th felon to the inauguration, and to fernand's point, this is much bigger now than it is about january 6th. this is in a nutshell trump signaling to the rest of the country and anyone who is thinking about committing a crime in his name, i have got your back. if you commit a crime for the next four years, i will get you off the hook. >> well, it is about something even bigger and probably worse than that. it is if you stand up against me, if you speak against me, if

you try to defend democracy, i will get you. it is not just about having the back of the guys stand with him, it is about going after those who tried to stand with democracy. the most important thing for people to be aware of, my greatest fear for the next four years, is the assault on justice in this country. donald trump has made it clear, he has said he is looking to pardon most of them when you talked about the january 6th insurrectionists. he has talked about -- he and his supporters have talked about going after and possibly incarcerating people in the media because they have disagreed with him or undermine him by telling the truth. and to your point, conversations about people like liz cheney and adam kinzinger who haven't broken a single rule anywhere about anything now being targeted, what kind of people are going to run to represent us in office if that happens? donald trump is trying to build a government that serves him,

that protects him, that advances him at the expense of all else. including democracy and the rule of law. and that is something that every american -- just imagine a day, and this is absolutely possible, when any one of us who might end up being in front of a judge for any reason, when one of the questions becomes your position on donald trump. >> fernand, i wanted to get your reaction to this statement from the department of justice this week. the doj is urging a federal judge to deny a request from january 6th defendant cindy young who was convicted by a jury in august of four misdemeanors for her role in joining the mob that stormed the capitol to attend trump's inauguration next month. in the filing, it says young presents a danger to the d.c. community, including the very law enforcement officers who defended the capitol on january 6th. >> i mean, you know, i can cry.

i mean, i can take our copies of the constitution, we can like them on fire in front of the audience to symbolically mean what is being done. look, the justice department in the last days of the biden administration, they're going to uphold the law, but pretty soon, kash patel is going to be the head of the department of justice. he is the one who said himself that the election was stolen, that these rioters on january 6, in essence, were doing the right thing by following trump's command on january 6th, 2020. so you know, it is a stark contrast to what we are going to see. i mean, maybe historians will remember that nice little statement, but i wouldn't be surprised if she is not allowed to attend the inauguration at 12:00. as early as 4:00, they will have that january 6th rioter in some other highly prominent role, because again, the message trump is trying to send is if you are part of my army, no law will hold you

accountable. >> jennifer, after trump's spoke with my colleague kristen welker earlier this month, appearing to mistakenly believe most of the january 6th defendants were being held in jail when only a handful are, one trump ally told nbc news is, showed his blind spots on the probe. he added there needs to be a more specific, updated argument made to the public to defend pardons for january 6th defendants. how do you think this issue will land with the american people at large? >> well, frankly, when you look at the results of the last election, i am not sure it is going to cause the level of outrage that i would expect it to, that i think would be appropriate for it. i think that there are still people -- i know i am going to sound totally, you know, naove when i say it, i think there are still some people in the republican party who believe in the rule of law, who believe in justice. but i don't think there is anyone left in the republican party who will speak up in defense of it. and that is the big problem

here, that is the weakness in all of this. um, i hope against hope that voices like yours and others that are outside of the trump party will not just speak up against this, but remember it and build on it and make sure that this is something that never happens again. >> all right, jennifer horn and fernand, thank you to the both of you for joining us this night, happy holidays to the both of you. >> thank you. coming up, how some states with abortion bans are failing to track the impact of those laws on women. >> [ music ] >> [ music ] get four iphone 16 pro on us, plus four lines for $25 bucks. what a deal. ya'll giving it away too fast t-mobile, slow down. the itch and rash of moderate to severe eczema disrupts my skin, night and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now, i have rinvoq.

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but according to a new reporting from propublica, that is not happening in many states that have recently outlawed or heavily restricted abortion. instead, political leaders have dismissed committees, slowed down their work, or weeded out members that are openly critical of abortion bans. texas has even made it illegal for its committee to review debts that are considered abortion related. joining me now is cassandra, a reporter at propublica who uncovered this story and also reported on at least five women who died under their states abortion bans. cassandra, thank you so much for joining us, i appreciate you talking us through your reporting on this. i know you and your colleagues as to governors in i believe 15 states with strict abortion bans whether these committees should look at the impact of abortion bans on maternal deaths. but most of them did not respond, is that correct? >> that's right, and thank you so much for having me to talk about our teams reporting. we surveyed -- it was actually

18 of these states that have restrictive abortion bans, and asked governors, what they support their committee reviewing, you know, what a seismic change in healthcare has happened in their state, and most of them did not get back to us. a majority of these committees in these states are still several years behind and have not even looked at 2022 deaths. now, some governors did talk about the importance of maternal health, but the reality is that these committees need the resources to be able to do the very tedious review, and we are just not seeing governors rise to the urgency to have these committees look at that. >> i know that georgia officials fired all of their maternal mortality committee members after you and your colleagues reported on two pregnancy -related deaths in that state that they said were preventable. are these experts being silenced?

>> so, in georgia, following my colleagues reporting, we did learn that governor brian kemp dismissed the members of the georgia state committee that was reviewing these pregnancy -related deaths. now, what we have heard from the governor's office is that they very much intend to have the work of this committee continue and get started swiftly. now, in texas, some members we have talked about have also had the rules change, have been effectively removed from the committee, and there is concern among some members that post jobs, the work of these committees is becoming much more politicized. >> propublica also has a new report out that details how the cdc is not asking states to track deaths linked to abortion bans, and experts are calling it a missed opportunity. explain that for us, and is not unusual for the cdc not to be

involved in tracking and studying this? >> the cdc would be the entity at the federal level, right, that we assumed would likely examine this issue if the state isn't, but it turns out the cdc is also not looking or even directing states or asking states to examine this problem. in the past, looking at historical archives, it was interesting that the cdc back in the late 1960s, early '70s, was looking at abortion related deaths and impact in the united states. and it is very eerie to look at some of these archives and how much some of the same trends we are seeing today where women are leaving out of state, these are things that the cdc was tracking decades ago, but at this time, they aren't. and with the new president- elect donald trump coming into office, he will have to make decisions over this agency and

what it does under his administration, and certainly, it is something that we are going to watch to see if president-elect donald trump does put forward some initiatives for the cdc, but experts who we talked to obviously think that that is unlikely. >> yeah, i want to get your thoughts on one more thing, cassandra, and that is it is not only states failing to track abortion related deaths, but many of them are actually years behind in tracking maternal deaths overall. most haven't even finished reviewing deaths from 2022. if you take texas for example, texas is maternal mortality committee recently said they wouldn't even review cases from 2022 and 2023. how consequential will this be? >> well, at the latest texas maternal mortality review committee that was held in austin, these meetings are not very well attended, and i was there in person and there were a lot of people asking the committee to reconsider. now, what committee members

have said is they are not even able to look at those impacts, and they want to become more contemporary with their review. they are not even done looking at 2021 cases. they are starting to finish up 2021 and look at 2024 at the same time, but one of the other things that our reporting showed that most of the public does not realize is that that statute that you mentioned, it may also apply in certain cases to deaths of women who had received mifepristone or received an abortion procedure. and those kisses also wouldn't be reviewed. so, i think we are going to be following this and seeing a lot of public scrutiny on what these committees do to come. >> cassandra, thank you so much for your reporting and putting a spotlight on this, really appreciate it. happy holidays. >> thank you. just ahead, i will speak to one of the plaintiffs suing secretary of state antony

blinken over accusations that the u.s. is breaking the law with its continued military aid to israel. and next hour, matt gaetz's attempt to revive his political career as we wait to see an ethics report on his alleged misconduct. x [ music ] misconduct. x [ music ]

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and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) this week, the consensus continued to build that what israel is doing to the palestinians in gaza amounts to genocide. the latest organization to come to this conclusion is human rights watch, which published extermination and acts of genocide, israel deliberately depriving palestinians in gaza of water. the report states that since october 2023, israeli authorities have deliberately obstructed palestinians' access to the adequate amount of water required for survival in the gaza strip. and the key word here is deliberate. and i want to warn viewers that some of the images you are about to see are disturbing. the reason the word deliberate is important is that these

haunting images you are now seeing of children struggling, and in some cases dying from malnourishment or disease, are not at the hands of a natural disaster. they are, according to one of the most respected human rights organizations in the world, the result of a deliberate israeli strategy. in response to this report, the israeli military told nbc news that it firmly rejects allegations asserting it has deliberately targeted water infrastructure in the gaza strip as part of its mission to dismantle the hamas terrorist organization. the idf strikes military targets throughout the gaza strip, these strikes are carried out in accordance with relevant international law and all feasible efforts are taken to mitigate harm to civilians. but keep in mind, this follows amnesty international's report last week which also declared what israel is doing in gaza as a genocide. a report to the israeli military rejected as entirely baseless. so, the two largest and most

influential western based human rights organizations have now come to the same conclusion, and that is on top of the international criminal court issuing arrest warrants for benjamin netanyahu and gallant for war crimes in november and the international court of justice saying israel was plausibly committing genocide all the way back in january. but with the international consensus now forming that what israel is doing to the palestinians in gaza amounts to genocide and with the united states, both the outgoing administration and the incoming republican one showing no willingness to stop supporting these atrocities. what can be done to stop it? well, in both france and the united states, the answer is using the law. in france, a french palestinian woman with 13 family members in gaza filed a complaint in the paris judicial court against the french leaders of two pro- israel ngos for complicity in genocide. it is being alleged that these ngos participated in a call for israel to block human attorney aid from getting into gaza, and

cases like this could open the door for trying israelis who hold dual citizenship and that are alleged to have participated in war crimes. this case and others like it could prove to be a game changer, according to french lawyers. if world powers like the u.s. won't lift a finger to stop war crimes or bring those committing them to justice, then cases like these, using the rulings from the icj and the icc, along with reports of like human rights watch and amnesty to boost their legal standing, then the court systems in individual nations can be a form to hold people accountable. at least that is the hope. and it is not just france, it is also happening in the united states, americans that is stuck in gaza and have received no help u.s. government are now suing their governments leaders. nine palestinian plaintiffs, a combination of u.s. citizens, permanent u.s. residents, and americans with immediate family trapped in gaza, have now sued the biden administration on thursday in a bid to compel the government to help the families

to leave. but that wasn't lincoln's only legal challenge this week. in a separate filing, palestinian families have sued the state department for deliberately circumventing a u.s. human rights law to continue funding israeli military units accused of atrocities in gaza and the israeli-occupied west bank. in a statement, one of the palestinian plaintiffs said, "my surviving family members in gaza have been forcibly displaced two times since october, living in constant fear of indiscriminate israeli attacks carried out with american weapons." the u.s. government's military assistance to those abusive military forces with our own law prohibits is enabling the use as early harms to me and my family." nbc news has reached out to the state department for comment, but spokesperson matthew miller said tuesday that he wasn't aware of the case, but he would defer to the department of

justice who typically request that the state department not comment on cases that they are going to have to respond to in court. when we come back, ahmed more joints we live, stay with us. l treating symptoms and inflammation with rescue is supported by asthma experts. finally, there's a modern way to treat symptoms and asthma attacks. airsupra is the first and only dual-action asthma rescue inhaler fda-approved to treat symptoms and help prevent asthma attacks. airsupra should not be used as a maintenance treatment for asthma. get medical help right away if your breathing doesn't improve or worsens or for serious allergic reactions, like rash, mouth or tongue swelling, trouble breathing or swallowing, or chest pain. using airsupra more than prescribed could be life-threatening. serious side effects include increased risk of thrush or infections, or heart problems like faster heart rate and higher blood pressure. welcome to the modern age of dual-action asthma rescue. ask your doctor if airsupra is right for you.

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before the break, we discussed how international consensus is building that what israel is doing to palestinians in gaza constitutes genocide, with human rights watch it being the latest group to now come to that conclusion. israel has vehemently rejected all ports and human rights organizations that have made this charge and claims its actions are against legitimate military targets, but using these declarations as evidence, lawyers and palestinian citizens in both europe and the u.s. are now filing lawsuits either against israeli jewels citizens were here in the united states, directly suing the government for not complying with our own laws. joining me now is one of the palestinian american plaintiffs in this new lawsuit against the secretary of state, ahmed moore, we are also joined by

sarah lee whitson, the executive director of dawn, a human rights organization supporting this lawsuit. it is great to have you with us. first, how is your family doing and what prompted this case, what prompted you to be involved in this case? >> it is so, it is a daily struggle for survival in gaza as you have reported, as others have reported, as i have reported. the fact of getting up every day and just securing clean water to drink, somewhere safe to sleep, food which is edible, is a struggle, which defies the imagination. and that has been true for about 14 months now. when the genocide began, i and many other people in the country who are affected again to reach out to our congressional representatives to seek some kind of relief, and that was a dead end, frankly. this lawsuit is designed hopefully to get the people who were able to make decisions on these matters to comply with u.s. law, and that means

practically ending military aid to israel units, which are involved in human rights abuses . practically 14 months into a genocide, i would be surprised if that didn't mean most of the israeli units which are operating in gaza. >> sarah, and i want to be clear here, this is not about the u.s. violating international, this is about the united states of violating our own laws that are on our own books so to speak, including specifically the leahy law. explain to us how and what the united states is doing is a violation of the leahy law. >> sure. the leahy law effectively requires the state department and that all is really the security forces and to ascertain whether any of them have committed gross violations of human rights, and to ensure that u.s. military assistance does not go to such units. the united states has never once identified a single israeli unit is responsible for

human rights violations, it has never blocked assistance to one single israeli military unit since passage of the law in 1997, since even when the law was amended in 2019, specifically because the law had not been applied to israel and a few other countries where the aid is supposedly untraceable. and even despite the amendment to the law, the state department has never once identified a single israeli unit as ineligible for u.s. assistance, despite the overwhelming evidence, including in the state department's own annual human rights reports of hundreds and thousands of cases of gross violations of human rights. >> tell us about the case that is being built right now with the evidence that you have been able to gather, because you know, on the outside of it, you have these reports, these amnesty international reports, the human rights watch reports, doctors without borders saying there are clear signs that

ethnic cleansing is being committed. you have the icc, icj, all of these things that the world is seeing and is being documented, in some cases really supported with evidence that has been gathered in the public domain, and yet somehow, our own government, our own state department, our own department of defense, which has much more robust capabilities of tracking this information is somehow ambivalent whenever you ask the state department about it, you get a response that is we haven't come to any conclusions yet, we haven't made any determinations yet, and here we are 14 months into this, and still no clarity, no insight from the government. what do you have that would perhaps change their calculation? >> yeah, the assertion of the state department that effectively not one single unit of the israeli security forces has committed a single gross human rights violation that qualifies to ban them from receiving u.s. assistance is so preposterous in the face of the evidence that really we don't need to do much more, other

than show that they have failed to ever hold one single unit ineligible for aid. but we also have members of the state department, former officials of the state department whose job it was to oversee implementation of the leahy law, including with respect to israel, and they are now part of our lawsuit, they're part of our efforts to say no, in fact, the state department deliberately built a system, a bureaucracy designed to avoid ever finding a single military unit ineligible for aid if it is an israeli military unit. now, you know, our government sanctioned thousands of security forces around the world every year. this is not a law that they don't apply, they apply it all the time. they vet hundreds of thousands of security forces around the world, except for one country. in one country, have deliberately built a bureaucracy and an infrastructure to avoid ever prohibiting aid to a single israeli military force.

so, the law we are suing them under is called the administrative procedure act, that is a law that allows plaintiffs who have been harmed like ahmed and his family for failure of the government to enforce its law, to look to the judiciary to force the government to obey the law. this lawsuit only demands one thing, it demands that the state department obey the law and stop creating an israel exception to an american law. stop putting israel above u.s. laws. >> ahmed, tell me what you are hoping this lawsuit will actually accomplish? obviously, the death and destruction in gaza over the past 14 months, you can't bring these wives back, you almost can't even rebuild the lives of the people that have been lost there, but what are you hoping to accomplish legally with this lawsuit >> justice is a hard thing to wrap your head around at this point, with 20,000 dead kids in gaza. i interviewed a mother this morning, described how she watched her 12-day-old infant draw his last breath as she

pulled two other children out of the rubble. i don't expect a whole lot of relief from this lawsuit. i don't think anybody involved in this process is naove, we would like the u.s. government to obey the u.s. government law. at the same time, i am hoping that we are establishing -- we are establishing a trail of evidence, who did what, when, which decisions were made by whom, for posterity really. i don't draw any hope that we are going to arrest this genocide. i don't think we are going to stop it. i think it is a done deal and gaza is unlivable. >> tell me your thoughts on the end goal here. what is a successful lawsuit look like from your point of view? i mean, it seems like there is a little bit of -- i don't want to say despair, but maybe realism on your part, seeing that america has been able to dodge accountability for what is believed to be its

complexities in this genocide in gaza, and yet here we are, trying every way possible to bring an end to this war. >> if the state department were to fully and faithfully enforce the law as the constitution obliges them to do, we believe that many, if not most, if not every israeli military unit would be suspended from receiving u.s. military assistance. and that is because the evidence of their gross violations of human rights is so overwhelming, is so unprecedentedly horrible, and has orders coming from the seniormost leadership of the country, which in normal circumstances of leahy law enforcement, if a commander gives an order to a unit, all of the unit is banned aid. it takes the entire unit. and so, when you have netanyahu, the prime minister, the commander of all the countries forces and the defense minister, yoav gallant, who have now both been indicted for war crimes and crimes against humanity, that should

take all is really military units, laura our government to faithfully and fully enforce the law. so really, this is a test to get our government to enforce the law and to get it to enforce it faithfully and fully, and we believe that if they did, it would make a big difference because of the extent to which israel is dependent on u.s. military assistance. >> it is the story we are going to continue to follow, we have run out of time, we will have you back as the case progresses in the weeks and months ahead, best of luck to the both of you. ahmed moore, sarah, it is good to see you, thank you so much. i knew our transport starts after a quick break. s after a quick break.

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