happy holidays and happy new year and thank you for spending time with us. "the reid out" starts now. tonight on "the reid out". >> substantial evidence finding with with respect

rape in florida was sex with a girl who was 17, i thought, was certainly deeply concerning and the illegal use of illicit substances, i think ecstasy and cocaine, if i remember correctly, was concerning as well. ethics committee member glen ivy on matt gaetz, donald trump's initial pick to be the attorney general of the united states. the bomb shell ethic's committee report is now released, and it's every bit as bad and revolting as you knew it would be. also tonight, trump's territorial ambitions. demanding the return of the panama canal? and that denmark hand over greenland. this is the same man who promised voters no more wars. plus, president biden's historic announcement, commuting almost all federal death sentences. good evening, i'm katie phang, in for joy reid. we begin with the rise and fall

of matt gaetz. today the house ethic's committee revealed it found substantial evidence that the former republican congressman had sex with a 17-year-old girl in 2017. and that he regularly paid women for sex while he was in congress. the 42-page report concluded that the committee, quote, determined there is substantial evidence that representative gaetz violated house rules and other standards of conduct prohibiting prostitution, statutory a perks, impermissible gifts, obstruction of congress. committee investigators said they tracked 12 different women from 2017 to 2020. the committee concluded that most of the payments were likely connected to sexual activity and/or drug use. gaetz has repeatedly denied any wrong doing. and on monday, in a series of posts on x, he denied paying for

sex. earlier this morning, gaetz filed a lawsuit, seeking to get federal court to block the ethic's committee from releasing the damning report. he has also noted that the separate doj allegation of sex trafficking ended with no charges. the justice department declined to comment on the house ethic's committee matt gaetz report and also has not commented why it decided not to file charges. last month after donald trump initially picked him to be his attorney jeb, gaetz withdraw from consideration amid concerns from senators about allegations of sexual misconduct, but over the weekend, gaetz teased the possibility of running for the united states senate during a turning point usa event in arizona. >> it seems i may not have had enough support in the united states senate, maybe i'll just run for marco rubio's vacant seat in the united states senate and join some of those folks.

>> joining me now is paul butler, msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor and david lly and msnbc analyst and former congressman. the evidence is salacious and wild and yet it's evident. this is evidence that this house ethics committee considered and includes $1600 check from joel greenberg, a convicted felon doing time in a florida prison right now, a check to matt gaetz. several text messages between a contact listed as, quote, matt gaetz, and unknown or redacted individuals with references to hotel meet-ups and drugs. i mean, paul, what more did this report tell you and tell americans about a former congressman's conduct? >> it told us that these investigators found receipts that they have evidence that probably would have gotten him

kicked out of congress and if referred to a prosecutor could have him indicted on federal charges. the evidence includes venmo and zelle and cash app payments for sex workers and for drugs. there's also evidence beyond the sex that gaetz obstructed congress. he misled the investigators and may have even committed crimes involving failing to report these gifts, like these trips on his financial disclosure forms. and so we can certainly understand, katy, why gaetz fought the release of this report tooth and nail. he went to court as late as today trying to get an injunction and protective order because he said if this came out it would cause severe and permanent damage and ruin his reputation and so it has. >> you know, david, i have to point out, the investigation began april, 2021. the house ethic's committee put

it on the back burner because the doj said it was doing its own investigation. but according to this report, there were nine requests for information, six requests, 29 subpoenas for documents and testimony, 14,000 documents, more than two dozen witnesses. this is probably one of the most thorough investigations done by a congressional committee and the results that have come from this investigation i erp emphasize theagetive they're salacious but their criminal in nature. >> they certainly are. why did doj not bring a case against matt gaetz when they did against joel greenberg. other allegations against joel greenberg that ultimately brought him down i think as a county or city executive he illegally tapped into some dmv records. they had joel greenberg on other matters. there's a hard question, why not matt gaetz in this situation. some would point to the fact

that he's the privileged son of a financially fell-off political family, indictment of our own justice system. witnesses make bad witnesses. this is the most important, there's a victim that is identified in this report. an underage child or a child who based on the allegations in the report, credible information, would be a victim of statutory rape. and so, why then does the house ethics committee release the report? first, they have a different standard than the court system. their's is a congressional standard. they can do whatever they want. it's well known naught resigned so he was outside of the us jurisdiction of the congress. the committee told us, one, there's an overwhelming public interest. that's true. allegation of drug use and statutory rape by a sitting member of the congress, there's a public interest, particularly i suppose when they're still relevant politically.

i think ultimately it's because, because matt gaetz obstructed and manipulated the investigation. as you mentioned the four-year investigation, he did not cooperate with it. he actually manipulated the house ethics committee, the norms of the congress and ultimately at the end when he couldn't play it out through december or through this coming january 3rd he resigned to try to remove jurisdiction. i think the house ethics committee said to the world today, look, we have to defend the institution of the house. we cannot be played by a bad actor amongst ourselves in congress. there are, it's not entirely unprecedented but unusual, it's important we release the report to say to the likes of matt gaetz, you don't goad use the institution to hide your own wrong doing. >> paul, let's turn i think a decidedly and well earned critical eye to the department of justice. the doj commenting, basically saying, right, to the extent possible, we don't release

evidence in an investigation. when somebody isn't charged by the doj. but to david's point, though, it's one thing to not charge matt gaetz. but it's a whole other thing, from what we read in this report, paul, the doj didn't cooperate with the house ethics committee, excuse me, when they asked for this information, when they told the doj to give the information over, the doj hemmed and hawed it's really hard not to say the doj fumbled this one and badly. >> so, the report says that the committee didn't find evidence of federal sex trafficking, which is the most likely federal charge for gaetz. because even though gaetz was responsible for transporting the sex workers across state lines, none of the women were under 18 at the time of the travel, and the commercial transactions involving sex were all voluntary. so typically the justice department only brings those kinds of charges if there's

coercion involved or if there's a minor or if there's some threat of force, reportedly. why wouldn't they turn this information over to the congress so it could do what it needs to do sincely at the time gaetz was still a member, not only was he a member, we know he was in line to be the attorney general. we don't know. they don't release the long reports and decides not to bring charges as why not. the standard for a criminal conviction is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. that's higher than the substantial evidence that this report found. but one other thing, katie, joel greenberg, he's doing 11 jeers in federal prison. no doubt that he's credible. the judge who sentenced him said he never in 22 years of being a judge found a witness who was so

helpful in bringing his other -- providing information about the case. so, we'll never know because the department doesn't release why it declines cases, but it's strange. >> david, let's talk about the criticism some people have about the timing of the release of this report. they're saying, well, who care s? some people are saying. matt gaetz has withdrawn his name from consideration to be the attorney general of the united states. which in and of itself is absurd, right, this idea that somebody -- by the way, this is the report. it's not like just the 42 pages. all of this is the evidence that was being considered here. but like, i get it. he withdrew his name, david, but what does it say about the fact that donald trump, mike johnson, other republicans were very loudly saying that this was our guy for the top cop of the united states. >> i'm so glad you frame it like

that. look, the scrutiny should be on matt gaetz. and if he has a political future renewed scrutiny should rerun for office again. but just as much tonight should be the scrutiny on donald trump and mike johnson. because we know donald trump shattered all the norms, right? someone who has been found civilly liable for sexual abuse. apparently doesn't matter to the american voters. and apparently the allegations against matt gaetz didn't matter to donald trump either. that's an indictment of where the republican party is today and where its leadership is. but bring in mike johnson as well who said this report shouldn't be released. i'm sympathetic having worked for 30 years with or within or without the house, somehowed a jay nt to the house of representatives. i deeply believe in the norms of the house. matt gaetz pulled a donald trump. he tried to do everything donald trump did with the courts. matt gaetz tried to do with the house ethics committee. and mike johnson helped him at the end. mike johnson said to republicans on the committee, don't release it.

and the republican co-chair of the committee apparently opposed releasing it. he wrote a dissenting report. he even said i don't disagree with the findings, we shouldn't release the findings. at some point the standard for performing in republican politics should be above the bar of credible allegations of statutory ra pshs e of above the ball of sexual abuse. it's not hard, republicans, to go find candidates, elected members that don't have credible allegations of sexual misconduct. they're not finding them right now. we have a party led by donald trump and elevating the likes of matt gaetz. >> you know, paul, i did want to mention this as well because this is something that you and i have dealt with as prosecutors and david has been a lawyer. but the women in this case. there was a decision to not try to re-traumatize a lot of the women, the committee made i thought a very kind of empathetic and smart decision not to do that. but they made a note in the report that i wanted to emphasize for our viewers right

now. gaetz's relationship with these women, whether or not it didn't violate federal trafficking laws or not, paul, they said it involved an exploitive power. they feeled about speaking up. they also talked how their consent was impaired by drugs and alcohol, that according to this report, matt gaetz either provided, supplied or asked these people that were partying together to be able to provide. i also want to emphasize that there was the finding in this report of statutory rape of a 17-year-old girl, which is a strict liability crime in the state of florida. talk about, paul, how this works as well when it comes to -- i get it. there's a different criminal standard, burden of proof, versus one for congress. but the fact that the potential, almost attorney general of the united states has been accused of an exploitive power imbalance with women. >> one, a 17-year-old, whom he says he didn't know was 17, she

says that she was under the influence of ecstasy when she had sex with him when she was a girl. six months later, after she turned 18, and gaetz then knew that she was 18, he had sex with her again. again, federal charges on this kind of case will be hard to bring, given the department's policy. but we can look at easy to prove case crimes like possession of cocaine, possession of ecstasy. the department appears to have receipts, katie, about half of the people who are in federal prison now are there for drug crimes, for nonviolent drug crimes. i think that david is right that gaetz did pull a donald trump. he pulled a donald trump because his power and money and influence seems to have insulated him from criminal prosecution. >> paul butler, david jolly, my thanks to both of you for getting us started. happy holidays to you and your

families. and coming up, trump's dangerous diplomatic play book continues, threatening to invade yet another u.s. ally while doubling down on a pressing need to take over greenland? it's almost too farcical to be true, but it's absolutely not a joke. don't go anywhere. not a joke don't go anywhere. have you always had trouble with your weight? same. discover the power of wegovy®. with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds. and i'm keeping the weight off. i'm reducing my risk. wegovy® is the only weight-management medicine proven to reduce risk of major cardiovascular events such as death, heart attack, or stroke in adults with known heart disease and obesity. don't use wegovy® with semaglutide or glp-1 medicines, or in children under 12. don't take if you or your family had mtc, men 2, or if allergic to it. tell your provider if you plan to have surgery or a procedure, are breastfeeding, pregnant, or plan to be. stop taking and get medical help right away

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vision of america. he's already claimed that canada, a sovereign country with roughly 41 million people is america's 51st state, which came as a stunning surprise to canadians, border agents and the rest of the world. he went on to troll canada by posting a picture of himself staring out at a swiss mountain with a canadian flag. confusing, yes, i know. and on sunday, he threatened to take the panama canal, which the united states built but relinquished control of in 1999. naturally, the panamanian president didn't love the idea. every square meter of the canal belongs to panama and will continue to. but trump fired back on his social media site, we'll see about that. then there's his dream of owning greenland, which he resurrected when he announced his new ambassador to denmark, another

billionaire peter theel, elon musk buddy. writing, for purposes of national security and freedom throughout the world, the united states of america feels that the ownership and control of greenland is an absolute necessity. yep. he said it was a necessity. greenland gained home rule from denmark in 1979 and its head of government dismissed trump's calls as meaningless. it's unclear how trump plans to acquire these sovereign nations and whether that includes the use of american military force. rolling stone reported a senior aide said there's a debate about how much should we invade mexico and another source told the magazine that a soft invasion would involve american special forces assassinating cartel leaders in mexico. joining me now is democratic strategist and msnbc political analyst, rick wilson, former republican strategist who co-founded the lincoln project

and democratic pollster and msnbc political analyst, three of some of my favorite people. i mean, guys, basel, we'll start with you. it's a very putin-esque thing to make these grandiose claim. how does this even happen, though, realistically and logistically without trump deploying use of force? >> well, not being a military expert, i don't know, except to say that, yeah, i would imagine that troops have to be involved. i mean, this is imperialistic language when he says we need this, that it is -- that it is part of our desire for stronger national security. look, greenland is very rich in natural resources. and he, i'm sure, has his eye on that and other people have said that. but the languages also disturbing. it's not just him, you know, trying to put world leaders on watch, you know, by using this tough talk and using it as sort

of a negotiation tactic. it's scary language because as many folks believe that this country is headed toward oligarchal rule and the putin-esque language that's being used here, one wonders really how far actually would he go. if you really are paying attention to some of what america's policy is, you can see some of what america's treatment of puerto rico as being able to shed light on what is possible. but you know, he would say, my guess, is that it's a way to lerch america's power among world leaders. but, given his relationship with putin, it is really scary stuff actually. >> i mean, rick, one of the people we know, miles taylor, said in the first trump administration trump asked him and other officials in 2018 whether the united states could swap greenland for puerto rico because in trump's words, quote, puerto rico was, quote, dirty

and the people were poor. remember, first term insanity but some guardrails, less loyalists. second term, no guardrails, all loyalists and now we have them talking about assassinating cartel leaders in mexico to be able to do a soft invasion of mexico. >> you know, first off, katie, i'm sure we'll be greeted as liberators. it will be a great, great american success story, trying to invade northern mexico sounds to me like, you know, vietnam with spicier food. this is a bad plan across the board. but i think in some ways, you know, this really points to the unseriousness of the trump administration and the trump allies. if they're plan during the campaign was that our biggest international competitor is china, we're pushing other countries into the hands of china but doing this kind of ridiculous and absurd and overreaching set of posturing that will not happen. you know, trump likes to flood

the zone with you know what, but this idea that we're going to invade canada or invade mexico or seize the panama canal, none of it is serious. none of this is a serious proposition, but it is a dangerous one because it shows that trump thinks that the -- all the alliances and the friendships and the economic relationships that we have with these nations and mexico and canada, biggest trading partners, are there to be toyed with. it's an insulting and foolish behavior, but i'm not surprised. >> trump may have these grandiose ideas to expand america but on the domestic front he is going after woke, he announce head would stop transgender lunacy and make two genders the official u.s. policy. take a listen. >> under the trump administration, it will be the

official policy of the united states government that there are only two genders, male and female. >> but the eggs, what about the eggs? >> well, you know, eggs, the price of eggs and homeownership and the economy was a distant fifth in the campaign polling i did, katie, where seizing the panama canal was number one, invading mexico was number two, invading canada was number three, seriously. i think rick said something they really want to highlight here. he talked how this isn't necessarily serious but it's dangerous. i think it is serious. i think it's also extraordinarily dangerous because as we talked about, there are no guardrails anymore. and for the world's largest and only superpower to be engaged in this kind of bellicose talk, directed at our allies, mind you, not even at our hostile

enemies, so to speak, and our allies, you have heads of state around the world saying, oh my god. what is going to happen. this is the consequence of this election. and the framing device that i do to understand this bonkers talk is simply to imagine what would happen and how would the actions be if vladimir putin managed to be in charge of foreign policy for the united states. and that's how all of this stuff makes sense. attacks on our allies, undermining america's stability, undermining our moral authority, engaging in this woke base-stroking politics and not focussing on the issues that the american people said they voted for trump for, which again was the economy and trying to contain some of the issues at the border. instead this talks about a fascist dictator on our hands. he promised to be one on day one

which is now 30 days away. >> basel, speaking of mexico, immigration issues. this weekend trump promised to launch a 21st campaign just say no campaign on drugs and to designate mexican cartels as terrorist. trump's hand selected border czar, tom homan, we know who had his fingerprints all over the immigration policies, tom homan promised to wage a war against officials across our country, starting with the governor of illinois who stands in the way of deporting non-violent criminals. take a listen. >> if you knowingly harbor and conceal illegal alien from i.c.e., that is a felony and there will be consequences. the governor says i don't have the authority to do that. no [ bleep ]. u.s. attorney certainly does. we will ask for prosecution. basel, trump wants to bring the battle now to the states? >> well, just a quick point on

the war on drugs part because when the war on drugs is being waged and it involved a lot of people that looked like me, it wasn't really a war on drugs, it was a war on us and we largely went to prison for it. we largely went to prison for that. but when it became an issue for people that didn't look like me, those communities were embraced a lot more. so i take that -- his statements about the war on drugs certainly with a grain of salt. and that which brings me to the point about migrants and immigration. i think, as you ask about taking it to the states, what's interesting to me is that you might actually find some mayors and governors that are somewhat empathetic to that. think of what happened in new york city very recently where a migrant is charge with setting a woman on fire. i raised that over the last few weeks, the mayor of new york

city, ark eric adams has been mirroring the trump language with respect to immigrants and to migrants now. clearly a lot of elected leaders in the city that are pushing back on that, that language, not on the crime, but on the language. but my fear is that a lot of people will sort of take the bait, right? that they're going to say, well, you know, trump did better in certain communities. better than he did in 2020. and maybe i should be aligning myself a little bit with him and those -- and that mindset. but you know, when you really get down to it, i think voters still want a more humane way of engaging immigrants and migrants. him pushing this birthright citizenship is just one example of the ways that he uses this bureaucracy, you know, with this really broad, blunt tool. don't go anywhere, folks, our panel is sticking with us

because you know when someone is totally not even a little bit upset about something and then they bring it up, well, it seems like that's what's happening with trump and elon musk right now. we'll be right back. ight now. we'll be right back.

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♪♪ donald trump isn't even the president yet, but he's already

facing the first major policy failure of his second administration. when this weekend the house passed a government spending bill to avert a potentially catastrophic shutdown, but without the debt ceiling hike that trump was demanding. and new reporting from politico says that not only is trump unhappy with the funding deal itself, he's not too thrilled with house speaker mike johnson either. writing in the end, trump was unimpressed with the entire chaotic process which left the incoming administration questioning whether johnson is capable of managing an even thinner majority next year. but the house speaker may not be the only one who is getting under trump's skin after last week's mess because over the weekend trump pushed back on the narrative that his billionaire buddy elon musk is really the one who's in charge. >> president trump has ceded the presidency to elon musk. no, no.

that's not happening. but elon has done an amazing job. we want to thank you him. but no, he's not going to be president. that i can tell you. and i'm safe. you know why? he can't be. he wasn't born in this country. >> back with me are basil, rick and fernand. rick, the one thing that's a big tell about this man, when he brings it up voluntarily and tries to make it sound like a joke. we all know it's not really a joke. >> that was donald trump's equivalent of saying, i didn't want to go to the prom with her any way. it's so obviously deeply disturbed he is the vice president. the man who rips the constitution apart at any given opportunity suddenly is very concerned about elon musk eligibility to be president.

at this point, would it really matter? he has control over donald trump's behavior, his policies. he decides what's going to happen right now. and trump has less control than he's ever had as a president or as a leader. elon musk has unmanned him. >> you know, fernand, we also saw some kind of damage i think was done even more so to donald trump when it comes to the dance between trump, as incoming president, and somebody like mike johnson because chip roy, for example, stood up to trump and said, no, we're not going to accommodate your demands for the debt ceiling issues and speaker johnson looks weaker than he did before which i wasn't sure was going to be possible. >> well, first off, when it comes to mike johnson and donald trump, from trump's perspective, you got to think that he regards johnson like hotel bathroom

toilet paper. that's what will happen with mike johnson. that's done. they're already looking for the next person because johnson made the cardinal sin of trying to govern, something you cannot do in maga land. what's interesting, i think, about musk, katie, i have ever only seen donald trump tolerate being humiliated by three people before. one was his father, the second was melania trump, the third is vladimir putin. now you see that same behavior with elon musk. and i think the common denominator is all four of those people in one way or another own donald trump. they have much more power than him. and he knows that there are certain lines he cannot cross. i would add musk to the list of those now four people that donald trump has basically kowtowed to and showed us, even watching, that those four people are ones he dare not cross. so when he jokes about musk not

being able to be president, that sounded like joking in fear and kowtowing to someone who he knows is his superior. >> i mean, basil, i want to stick on this a little bit because i think it's important to talk about it because it shows how someone who is not even a part, an official capacity, of the administration can have such outsized influence on the president of the united states, which i think fits with the continuing reality, not a narrative, but the reality that trump takes cues from others, the ktor orbans, the vladimir putins, people he's taking his cues from, goes so show how very small and how very weak a man is donald trump is. >> that's true. fame and power is his currency. as long as you exude that, project that, he'll be your friend until he's not. to the earlier point. and you know, i just remember

when he was talking several weeks ago about rfk jr. in a speech with rfk there. and he said about him -- donald trump said about him, you know, you're really popular. don't get too popular, but right now you're pretty popular. that shows me, and it has always signalled that donald trump will love you until you get more popular, more fame, more attention than he does, at which point he doesn't have any more use for you. could that happen with elon musk? probably. that means he'll probably be replaced by some other very wealthy person. but what's interesting and scary about elon musk is that, you know, musk controls x, formerly known as twitter. he actually does control in many ways the kind of information that people consume. and maybe it's not something that would influence many of us, that are here and that are watching, but it is clear that what control he does have over

people's feeds, this could be used in a way that may be negative to donald trump down the road. it will be really interesting to see how that relationship plays out. just very quickly, remember back and during the campaign when we talked about voters having sort of trump amnesia. >> yeah. >> welcome back to the reality of trump world chaos because that's what we're in right now. >> yeah. rick, quickly before i have to let you guys go. i wanted to talk about senator john fetterman. he says that democrats need to, quote, chill out about trump. like the constant freak-out is not helpful, pack a lunch, pace yours because he hasn't even taken office yet. i see the point he hasn't taken office yet, but it's not like it's not going to happen, right? and i feel like fetterman is kind of inching over a little bit right ward right now is eyebrow raising and he's been meeting with some of trump's cabinet picks, seemingly open to

supporting kash patel and pete hegseth. we're making a point to highlight how those are people not only competent to hold these positions but don't have the ethical and moral compasses to be able to do those jobs effectively. so i wanted to get your thoughts about john fetterman. >> i think we have seen a real politic going on. he will be up for re-election again. he's looking at the future. and pennsylvania is still a fairly red place. i think this is not some deeper ideological explanation. i think it's a purely political assessment. although, i also think that john fetterman is -- if he's willing to meet with these people and then votes against them, i think that in some way strengthens his hand, i was an objective player. i found them wanting. if he ends up voting for people like pete hegseth, that's another question all together. >> point well taken. basil, rick, fernand, thank you to all three of you.

happy holidays you and your families. coming up next, president biden commuted federal death row inmates to to life on parole before donald trump takes office. we'll be right back. before donald trump takes office we'll be right back. (cough cough) (sneeze) (♪♪) new alka-seltzer plus cold or flu fizzy chews. chew. fizz. feel better fast. no water needed. new alka-seltzer plus fizzychews. (children speaking)

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president biden made a historic announcement today, commuting the sentences of 37 of

the 40 federal inmates that are on death row. they're now going to be reclassified to life without the possibility of parole. only three men will remain on federal death row, boston marathon bomber sow car z nar of. robert bowers and dylann roof who killed nine parishioners at the historically black mother emanuel church in south carolina. president biden spared the lyes of the other 37 men just a month before donald trump returns to the white house. in a statement, biden said, quote, make no mistake, i condemn these murderers. and grieve for the victims of their despicable acts and i grieve for all the families who suffered unimaginable and loss. guided by my conscious and my experience as a public defender, chairman of the senate judiciary committee, vice president, and now president. i am more convinced we need to stop the death penalty.

i cannot stand back and let a new administration resume executions that i halted. rashad, it's good to see you. this was kind of expected to happen. and yet, always good to see when it actually comes to fruition. for those that are tuning in now, the biden administration imposed a moratorium on federal executions starting in 2021, but donald trump campaigned on bringing it back. he wants to expand the federal death penalty to include people like drug dealers and donald trump oversaw a massive rise in federal executions when he was in his office in the first term. that administration, that trump administration, carried out 13 executions in the last six months that he was in office. and there have only been 16 federal executions since 1988. your thoughts, rashad, on why you thought it was so important for president biden to kind of show and follow through on his promise on this and that he commuted these sentences and that he did it now.

>> well, president biden has been clear -- and the polling and the american public have been clear about the sort of death penalty. so much has changed since so many of these men who on death row, so much has changed about our criminal justice system. many of them wouldn't be eligible for the death penalty if you look at current doj standards. out of the 40 men that were on death row, 15 of them were black. 15 of them were black. just looking at the sort of racial disparities that exist in our criminal justice system. and then not to mention, sort of what we know about every -- for every eight folks that are executed, one person is found to not have committed the crime. and so, you know, we know that the death penalty is not only

something that is not something that should be carried out because it's not clear that we have the systems to actually end people's lives because our system is so flawed, but also the american public simply isn't there anymore on these type of executions. but what we do know is that donald trump is there. and you talked about some numbers in terms of donald trump's time as president. in 2020 alone, his last year as president, he executed more people in a single year than had been executed in the 20th and the 21st century as president. and so, this is just an example of someone that is -- would go into office and use this type of power in a way that is totally out of step with where the american public and where our conscious as a country should be. >> rashad, i want to stick on some of these numbers because i think it's important for people to know. since 1973, 193 people exxon

rotted. 191 people exonerated, exonerated from death row, 103 of them black. these are from state numbers. this is not the federal stuff, but i want to highlight these numbers because there's this risk inherent with sentencing people to the death penalty as opposed to life in prison. >> well, you know, we don't -- you don't get a second chance when you killed someone. and we know that our system right now is flawed. time and time again it proves itself to not actually always get the results that's needed. and you know, the death penalty, as a tool, hasn't proven itself to actually deter crime. in the states that have death penalty, you know, murders and even murders of police officers, are actually higher than in states that don't have the death penalty. it's a tool that's supposed to

deter crime. it actually doesn't work that way either. so we should all be able to live in a country where we can feel safe. we should all be able to live in a country where the justice system works and is on our side. and that is part of the work that we have to do, part of the effort and the fight, part of the thing that we do everyday at color of change with bringing more voices into a process to elect fair-minded prosecutors, to elect people to office that are going to push and fight for the type of laws that make our communities safer and more whole. but the death penalty is a final tool. and it's a final tool that time and time again we've seen us not be able to use effectively and take away people's lives when we simply shouldn't. and president biden's decision today was an important one. and it's due to a lot of advocates of everyday people standing up and pushing.

and i hope we will do more in terms of pardons and clemencies to right the wrongs of an unjust criminal justice system in so many places. >> rashad robinson, thank you for taking the time to join us. we'll be right back. to join us we'll be right back.

. and that is tonight's reidout. "inside"