&. & how i hate going out in the storm. &. good morning. and welcome to this special christmas holiday edition of morning joe. we hope you are enjoying it with your loved one. we are on tape this morning bringing you some of our best segments from the past few

weeks. including joe's recent interview with former president bill clinton. at his presidential library and museum in little rock arkansas. which is now celebrating its 20th anniversary. they discussed clinton's new book citizen. written about his life after the white house in the increasingly polarized state of american politics. >> we are living in a time when we are both deeply and fairly closely divided. now president trump this year won a fairly healthy electoral victory for a simple reason. a lot of voters who thought trump was economically successful before covid hit and they got that check from him in the mail that he signed where more democrats than republicans voted for the bill, but he said i will sign it if i can send the check out. he knew what he was doing. then, vice president harris had

an almost impossible job. because she became a candidate at a time when no one else could legally access the money that had been given to joe biden and there was no time to hold primaries. so she was in effect a stranger to people. people knew what they liked about trump and when they didn't. and about 54% of them were would have happily voted for somebody else, but people didn't feel that they knew about harris. >> and we are still a 50-50 nation. i know the day after, everybody democrats were in shock, but the further you get out you go wait asecond, she lost wisconsin by less than 1% of a vote. 1% of the vote. michigan about 1.2%, 1.3%. the same with pennsylvania, a little bit more. and yet democratic senators won in those states.

democratic senator progressive democratic senator won in arizona. we still have such a closely divided nation. politically aren't we? >> i think that a lot of it is information system. and think that's why i think we should all be talking to each other. and not playing demographic games. >> i want to read from something that you wrote in the book about the 2016 election. this whole thing is hard for me to write. i couldn't sleep for two years after the election. i was so angry. i wasn't fit to be around. i apologized to all those who endured my outbursts, rage, which lasted for years. and bothered our board people who thought it was pointlesses to rehash things that couldn't be changed. and this chapter he tried to calmly write about the dark of the election possible in the united states because it is

important to understand what happened. >> it's easier for us to know what happened in 2016 and some ways what it was in 2024. in terms of all the -- because -- and in 2016, you had two highly unusual things. first of all, the mainstream media told the american people repeatedly that the biggest issue was hillary's emails. that's what they said. not just fox. when in fact, even the trump state department said she neither sent or received a single solitary email on her personal device mark classified one, and two, she followed the rules as they then existed. the rules were changed after she left office. and yet, the whole story was written as if she had done something hidous and then james

comey made it worse. >> in the july press conference he came out and said she was not-dieted but for the first time decided he was going to pontificate. >> yeah. >> about what he thought. >> and he said she was careless and i told the story, in the book about how when president obama called to tell me bin laden had been killed in successful raid and he said we did it we got bin laden and hillary didn't tell you and i said mr. president, you told -- you told your people not to tell anybody didn't you. i said yeah but, she didn't tell anybody. i mean, hillary is sort of down the line person you know, so, it was ludicrous the extent to which people went to essentially fabricate a smear on her on the -- and think they did it because they thought they had to mention something

bad about her if they said something baded about trump. >> we saw the same thing not so long ago of the hunter biden pardon, you look at the first five, six, seven stories on "new york times" cite it is all about that. first five, six, sen on washington post all about that. on the same day, that a man is picked to be the next fbi director who said he had a list of enemies over 60 long and he was going to throw reporters, journalists, editors in jail. >> it is true that it is highly unlikely, i think, that anyone who was where hunter biden was would have been facing a substantial jail sentence for something he did when he was under the influence of drugs, and when he has paid back and paid his fines for all the

taxes he owed. whatever you think about that, it pales in comparison with deliberate use of the criminal justice system to punish political enemies. this whole thing has been thrown off for several years now, because of the dominance of what i call roy cone politics. roy cone was senator joe mccarthy's main adviser and came back and he was donald trump's father main political adviser, and then president trump and roy cone said, no matter what happens, always deny everything. always attack, and always accuse other people of doing what you are doing. and pretty soon, the most important people who believe that are your own supporters.

and then nobody believes anybody about anything. we need to go back and meet people where they live and talk about what they are interested in. i realize that you know, it's easy to underestimate the intelligence of people when they are focusing on what they care about. but you got to deal with what people are living with. president biden will leave office with a record of creating more jobs created in the four years than any previous four year period in american history. no matter how many -- that if it were 50 million, it will be about 16 to 18 somewhere between that. if it were 50 million it would be nowhere near the number of people who are affected by inflation. and food prices, so you have to discuss the things. you can't pretend no business

no marriage no friendship, no nothing can succeed and thrive if you don't deal with the pink elephant in the room. >> talk about how democrats may be could have learned from there and maybe stop firing at each other. and start working together. >> look, i don't even believe the real problem is what whether you should be more verbally left or center. i think you got to talk like people talk who will make the difference in the outcome of the election. you don't have to sell out what you believe in. but you do have to moat people where they live. and you can't get very far avoiding it. like, you and i have been friends for years. we have got our political differences and we got a political history.

but i know you. and i like you. and suppose you and mika did a makeover of your living room and you asked me to come visit. and i visit and it is beautiful. everything about it is beautiful except in the corner, you've got this beautiful curved couch but behind the couch there's a pink elephant. and now, i could ask you i guess you are stale republican and turned a little pink or something we could do it refine it. almost doesn't matter what i say. the one thing i cannot do is to come in drink your coffee and talk about how beautiful your living room is and turn around and not mention the pink elephant. >> ignore it. >> i think a lot of democrats a lot of people like me independents, i was focused on

donald trump's political rhetoric. his violent political rhetoric. i said sounded like fascist rhetoric to me combined with january 6th and combine it with everything else, and i kept talking about that every day because for me, that was what mattered the most to me. but the perching elephant over there, that's a cost of groceries. that's the cost of gas. that's the thing they got to take care of first. right? >> yep. well, the average person believes whether they voted for president trump or not the first time, that we survived it. and they give him perhaps too much cred it for the fact that in the first two and a half years of his presidency the first time, that the economy got better. i think that the fangs are that he inherited the end of the obama era's recovery.

we went from 8 million jobs in obama's last two years to 6 and a 5 million to trump's first two years but there was no inflation and people felt it. so we had to see that election the way they did and answer that. and start with that. so had we didn't answer it, it was like we left the pink elephant in the living room. there's a reason why we are already the longest contentiously existing democracy in history. it's hard to save one. that's fine. but if you are going to fight to save it, in an election system with all these forces raining down on you you have to deal with issues that affect people's lives. same is true all over the world. upheaval is happening. people are losing faith in institutions and in many, many places, they are going to reward the people that destroyed their faith. i wouldn't bet against america so far everybody is bet against

us lost money. we got to stay after it. >> up next, we will have more from joe's discussion including the remarkable work done around the world by the clinton global initiative. by the clinton glob initiative.

welcome back to morningo.

last week he sat town with former president clinton who celebrated the presentation presidential center in little rock. we talked about the work he's been doing and something he alluded to during his farewell address to the nation. >> my days in this office are nearly through. but my days of service i hope are not. in the years ahead, i will never hold a position higher or a covenant more sacred than that of president of the united states. but there no title i will wear more proudly than that of citizen. >> mika told me a story about how her dad was national security adviser, he had the red phone in the house on january 20th, 1201 p.m., 1981, secret service had been around their house come in and they rip out the phone, and wires

hanging out. secret service leaves. that's it. i can't imagine how tough it is, though, if you are the most powerful person in the world one day, to becoming a private citizen the next. how was that transition for you emotionally, professionally? >> i was grateful that the american people gave me a chance to serve eight years. i knew what the constitution said. i supported the two term limit. and so, i had been training myself, if you will, for my whole second term to try to walk out that door and be grateful and remember things i needed to remember. good and bad, but to never spend a day wishing i could still do a job i couldn't do anymore. i wanted to live in the present and for the future. and you have to do that deliberately. you have to have a strategy otherwise you know you kind of

drift and as said nobody play as song when you walk in the room anymore. so, i didn't know where i was for two or three weeks because i would walk in no hail to the chief. i could dead silence. i've been very grateful. i had wonderful time. >> what's incredible is you were only 54 years old. >> yeah. >> these days, that would be considered way too young to even run for president, but, at 54, you are hoping, you're praying and you've got three decades ahead of you or so to get things done. did you ever imagine how you would fill that up at that time? >> oh, yeah, i thought a lot about it. >> again, before. >> yeah. >> you had been preparing for this day. >> i realized we were living in an inner dependent world but one full of confliction as well as possibilities of cooperation. and he wanted to do what i tried to do when i was governor of arkansas. i wanted to try to figure out

how to do what i wanted to do because i think you know, just think about the business you are in. and how many -- what percentage of your political reporting has been about basically what are you going to do, and how much money you are going to spend on it. no matter what you do, there will always be a gap between what the public sector produces, and what the private sector produces. and i wanted to fill the gap. and figure out how to do things faster, cheaper and better. >> the clinton foundation, it seemed, and i know it wasn't this way but looking back, it seemed to ramp up to scale up so quickly when you consider almost half a billion people touched by those organizations. and over 180 countries how did it ramp up how did it scale up

so quickly to have such an impact in haiti, with hiv aids and so many other places in the world. >> it turned out that there was a genuine hunger on the part of people who were happy to give money to good causes if they thought it would make a difference. so before you know it, we had an organization that was working year-round trying to help people develop their commitments and keep them. and keep score. so they knew what they did, and that it sort of spread like wild fire. and you know, now, in the last year, we have gone over 500 million lives that have been positively affected in one way or the other. with the what we started in health care, finding a way to drive down the price of aids

medicine before there was ever any global fund on aids and mi layer yeah that saved millions of lives because we were able to move quickly into places and deliver that. >> you write about how no country was impacted as much by your work and work of your partners than haiti. talk about that if you will. >> i realized that they didn't have any systems that worked. and in a way that i thought were important. and later, when they had the in 2009, they suffered from all the storms, so, the united nations secretary general, then later they asked if i would serve as a u.n. envoy and work for a few years to increase the

rate of economic growth and saw solve some of the other problems. and i agreed to do it, and it had -- we did lot of really good things. but i learned a lot about haiti and haitians. i went down after the earthquake in 2010, and met with the president and his minister of finance who literally came back to work the day after his 10-year-old son was killed. and the agony in that man's eyes, i will never forget. on the way in to to the meeting, anybody everybody's been to haiti from the airport to the center city where the capitol and government buildings are. there's a long road with a long fence where all the artists, local artists hang their paintings and on one side of the road behind that, there's a kind of park like area where the people who work in metal

and wood, stop the car caravan and i said i want everybody to get out and buy something. and don't haggle with them over the price this time. they are very brave people. so, i got out and went over and bought a picture or two and i was getting back to the scar and the guy said mr. president you bought something from me in 2003 when we were bringing aids met add me sin. you have to come again. so, i went over and shook hands with a guy he had a little picture of me buying something from him seven years earlier and i really admire all of you for coming out now. i can't believe you are here so early. he said, well, i had to be here and besides i have nothing else to do because my wife and children were killed in the quake and we are sort of a big family here, all of us artists, and we all know what happens to

each other. and i bought three or four paintings from that guy and i left knowing why i had come to haiti. i will never forget that man. >> i want to focus on one area that you write about and that is every day people history bending difference working for cgi, and you talk about some of their stories in the book. some of the heroes. of cgi that didn't write the big checks and didn't do the bigger things that might draw attention from the press. but like i said, the every day heroes. >> one of the things -- one first of all, one of the things we tried to do was to match people who had time to give or skills to give with people who had money to give but didn't want to be taken for a ride. they wanted to know if their invested their money they would get what they invested for. and so many of them were great.

we had a young american woman named majora carter who was native of the south bronx who came home and a man in new jersey who wanted to help the south bronx which at the time was the poorest congressional district in america, and had no green space for people. and so, they had set aside land but they didn't have enough people to staff it. and this man who became a good friend of mine barry segal gave them $100,000 to start, and he was so impressed gave him near 100,000 and kept him going for three or four years until they got other support. so you had citizens doing one thing, but you had to have somebody who could do another. and there are so many examples of that. i mean, 9-year-old kids who develop beach cleanup programs that all of a sudden the adults were yawning because they were

so well organized. and then other countries, there were also remarkable number of young people who often paredded with very old people to do this same sort of thing. based on the problems that existed where they lived. and what they could change. and i will never forget that. and then there were just the people that were trying to not become victims but were trying to begin again. that's a big secret of life. you know we all have our setbacks. we all have things happen and we got to keep going. >> it the individual stories isn't it, that actually keep you going. >> one of the things i talk about in this book hoping it will be helpful to other people, and doing their lives i said whether we acknowledge it or not, we all keep score. on ourselves. on our lives. we wish we had more money or

wish we had more time to be with our kids. we wish this or wish that. all this is part of a daily process we are all in. and if we give up we are keeping score. i am beat. i am never going to be what i wanted to be. i'm never going to do what i wanted to do. and i am giving up what i could be doing because i am so depressed. i decided fairly early on in order to go through the ups and downs of life when i had far less power than i did when i was president, to remember that even in politics, and even if you are president of the united states there, are no permanent victories or defeats if public life. >> up next, here, axios cofounders breakdown how the media is now splintering into dozens of news bubbles and why

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so jim and mike, you are out with a recent piece for axios looking at growing divide and how americans consume the news. it is entitled shards of glass inside media's 12 splintering realities. and which you label and explain the dozen different ecosystems that you say modern media consumers inhabit. starting with the musk-eteers jim, take it from here night goes back to the beginning of the conversation of is there a big segment of the country that thinks it's okay to pardon the people who stormed the capitol on january 6th. the truth is is there are. and a lot of it has to do with information. the most useful thing for

viewers is stop thinking. news and start thinking about information. that's how people's minds are molded. what are they consume news and some nonsense us about that's the information bubble. it used to be that all of us kind of looked through the same window go back 15, 20 years ago, couple of newscasts, couple of cable stations, news papers all the same standards. that's been shattered. tell us how much you make where you work or what you do and i will tell you where you get your information and this information bubble you live in could be completely different from the person sitting next to you. and that's what's new right. if you are young guy who is interested in fitness and kind of vaguely interested in the news, you are getting your news from the musk-eteers joe rogan and listening to podcast on longevity in health. and what's really fascinating to me is the thought experiment i give people you could be sitting a the a table with people of different ages from

different regions and every person around the table mighting getting news on a platform you never visited. and from people that they trust you never heard of. and getting hopped up about a topic that never come across your desk. that's new. and think we have to reckon with our politics a lot of our cultural issues, a lot of our conflict it's downstream from information. so if you are in business, you are interested in what's happening in the country, you have to get your mind around this shattered glass phenomenon. >> mike, let's get you to weigh in-a couple other bubbles. you pick in terms of ones you feel most important, i will note of these instagramers, there's the right wing gram pass that listen to fox news but the kids tiktok which is the very future of the platform now in doubt. >> no, jonathan, here's a fascinating fact about the fragmented relates. the shards of glass. because there's very little overlap, among them, right, if

you tell meow are job, your income, your location, your age, like i can put you in one of these shards, but where's we used to say oh, like there isn't shared reality anymore. now there are even shared topics. like those instagramers, the right wing grandpas that you mentioned. they are talking about different things. case in point, last week i was asked to go on tv and talk about the pardons and they said can you come on and talk about law fare. that's probably not nbc or msnbc that's from the right. and so, different topics and here's a real wrinkle ben labold the white house communication director senior adviser told jim and me for column that we wrote on this shards of glass phenomenon that when they are looking at americans voters consumers, ages 18 to 35, there could be

something that's the lead of morning joe or axios and they are not even aware of it. or, it's an 8 second 9 second clip with different context. but the debate is they are eating the dogs and cats and remix on jonathan tiktok. >> and, of course, the. >> so interesting. >> the universe that axios and morning joe fit neatly in, jim, is what universe? >> i think it's basically if you think about a leek but people looking to get informed on a day-to-day basis largely to do their job or because they are deeply involved in government or in civic debates. and you know, that's what -- you think about you have a good day and might have 2 million viewers we have a good day we get 2 to 5 million people coming to the site. that's not 330 million people. it's very valuable slice i think it's where people who are running companies, running media and government go to to

get informed, but like mike said, there could be an entire population of people taking little pieces of that, and running with it in ways that would be indistinguishable how we talk or write about it. you can say the sox i want to go back, you can't go back in time. we have no choice but to realize the world is changing. and basically, you have this collision of information consumming, politics and business slash technology all at once. i find it invigorating and interesting. i think all kinds of new ideas and businesses will be born from it. and think your job, our job is to look at this stuff as:cally as moss possible, be curious and i think that's what we do when we do our best and when we don't people dunk on us. >> well, you know, the thing s and i love when i read the article, somebody showed it to me and i was fascinated by it because it really does show you the world that we are living in right now, and not again it's

not something that i look at and horrified by, it's something i look at and go oh okay, yes, so there are 12 right now silos, and a lot of times they don't cross each other. how do you get your silo and start moving out to the other areas. >> i was at an appointment and a woman was talking about her parents, i think they are right wing grandpa category i am not sure. and they are convinced what they had reading hurricanes were brought here by enemies and convinced, absolutely convinced. and there were a couple of other pieces of information that were disinformation and that's part of their reality. so, it's also that -- you have just scratched the surface here. this piece is amazing and we should talk about it more. axios cofounder jim vandehei and michael allen, thanks very much. classic holiday movie, elf is back on broadway this season.

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♪[ music ] ♪. . >> that was a look at broadway show elf the musical based on the 2003 movie elf starring of course will ferrelll. the musical adapt the story of buddy an elf living far away

from his home in the north pole brings it to the stage. it fee source show stopping musical numbers because after all, as buddy says in the movie, the best way to spread christmas cheer is singing loud for all to hear. that's the closest i will get to sing on air joining us now the costars of elf you guys can sean astin and gray henson who plays buddy the elf. iconic roles both. thanks for being here. i will say this, watching that, that couldn't look more fun. >> it looks so funny thought it looked so tiring actually. that's because i know it is. >> virtually every moment. >> screaming for two hours straight in a wool elf suit but it's dream. >> joy, joy is hard work. >> sleep well at night. >> so well. >> so talk to us about the challenge of playing the roles from both the move why and previous production bringing them to life now. >> i think the challenge when

you adapt something like this is not to do an impression of the movie especially like will ferrell in the movie is iconic and everyone knows the line reading. so i had to stop thinking of how will ferrell did the show to inject something new to it. and just you know you bring yourself to whatever you do sort of what we are always doing. >> it's music. and it's big music. and you have this extraordinary talent singing talent, dancing talent who is just like, putting it out there. >> so sean, how do you play santa claus that's a huge role. the stakes are high. >> my daughter said to me last night, she goes dad there's a generation of kids this is the first broadway show and you are establishing santa claus for them. and when i am sitting in the chair looking out i can see i can see the little kids and they don't blink. they don't blink they don't want to miss anything. so, you play it because you have been in training your life

to play santa claus. and i am the bad guy, too. so. >> this is your first timep broadway. you've been an actor your entire life and you are a veteran but what's it like coming to broadway after spending your career in other acting disciplines. >> my mom was on broadway in the '60s and my dad was in the broadway in '60s. they did broadway later in life and she did oklahoma and my dad -- to me it's getting jumped into a gang. we are a family you know a family acting whatever, so it's pretty, yeah, and the thing i take away from this is the people. grey and ensemble and crew that works behind the scenes and audience and people at the stage door. when you make it about other people, all of a sudden it gets fulfilling and makes it more fun instead of being terrifying. >> new york is a special place during the holidays and during this time of year.

it's decked out and i assume that energy comes into the crowd. so talk to us about that audience response you are getting particularly from those kids who are watching for santa claus and elf in movie they love so much. >> it's amazing. i was in the book of mormon. >> not for kids. >> mane girls for a teen demographic but the first time i hear like childlike reactions to lines and whatnot. like there's an emotional monolog buddy has where he becomes a real adult. and kids will laugh at it in way that i didn't expect anyone to laugh at. and it brings me so much joy because they are with us. no matter what. but it's amazing. there's nothing like performing live on broadway. >> there's adults like it too. there's a moment towards the end buddy you know, not a spoiler alert but he gets the girl and talks about getting the girl and you keep hearing the men in the audience going that a boy buddy. that a boy way to go. >> we have gotten that a boy

buddies. >> and that's perweak way to enter the week right there. >> love it. >> you can see elf the mouse cal through january 4th at marquee theater. sean ast iin and grey henson thanks. the next guest is putting a spin on the story of franken stine. jc from the pop group in sync is here in the studio with his new album. morning joe is back in a moment. new album. morning joe is back in a moment. (♪♪) (♪♪) start your day with nature made. and try new zero sugar gummies. it's time to grow your business. create a website. how? godaddy. coding... nah. but all that writing... nope. ai, done, built. let's get to work. create a beautiful website in minutes with godaddy. (realtor) we've been telling clients it's nearly impossible

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♪ [ music ]

>> wow. >> that's grammy nominated musician and founding member of the pop group 'n sync sipping the song how do you sleep off the new album entitled playing with fire. cocreated with jimmy harry the 16 track project is bringing the story of frankenstein back to life with sweeping mellow dramatic ballets infused with pop and classical music told from the perspective of various characters in the frankenstein saga and jc joins us now. i will start i need to know the outfit. >> this is my take on beige. >> all right. it's good is it suede. >> no it's a vegan vibe. >> all right.

>> wow,. >> left speechless. >> so many obvious questions here. one of which is kind of like we wonder what happens to the guys in the defining boy bands of an era and it seem likes broadway is natural. you are on are way and this is an album and trying to turn it into a musical. i am surprised there's not more to legacy of boy band veterans ending up on broadway. the though the atry cool was perfect for that. do you think about it that way? >> a bit, yes. you know, look, everybody's journey is different because broadway is full of actors and things like that. but when it comes to the music side of it, you see performers make their way to broadway but everyone has different goals and dreams, and this is actually one of mine and so, it's the stage of life i am fortunate enough to be able to put an idea out there. >> why are you insupported by

inspired by frankenstein. >> to say hey you know frankenstein the musical sounds kind of insane actually. >> yeah. >> but, i loved the idea, you know, mary shelly wrote something, you know, and started a conversation really maybe not started but faned the flame of conversation in 1818 about humanity and technology. and the responsibility that you have to have when you make something. and so, i just loved the themes because they are so relevant. we are talking about a.i. and we are talking about all these things about how we have to think about these things when we make these things and when we create these things. and so, what we wept in to write our version, jimmy and i went to write our version of this, we thought we will write this story and it's going to be about humanity and technology and what we found when we really went through the material and mary shelly's material, and what we came to the conclusion of was this was actually a father and son story, and it was all about

humanity. it doesn't matter what technology comes along. it never takes away your humanity. >> molly, for a woman writing this in 18 -- >> yeah. >> that's extraordinary story in and of itself. >> absolutely. >> but to see, again, technology, twisted 1818. it's mind blowing. what she did. >> a lot of great feminists novelisting out there. i am curious about reinvention. you were famous when you were young and survived that. >> survived, yes. >> that's not many people don't. and then you managed to change your career into something different can you talk about that. >> look, i am just -- i was inspired to do this. and i think that, you know, what you do what's true to yourself, like there's an opportunity there, and you know, i am song writing and always song writing because music is a passion of mine. this just kind of was the thing that opened my eyes up in

different way. i actually -- this is the second musical i have written actually along with jimmy. but, this is the first one that i think worked as an albecome, and so, this is our way to kind of bring everyone into our world to show them maybe as an appetizer of what we are thinking in term of the story. >> so i am going to ask you a really dope question. >> let's go. >> we have 90 seconds left. >> serious? >> i wish we had two hours on this. i am curious, and i always ask this of people who survived stardom at a young age which sounds weird but it is not because you are young and get everything you want and destroys so many lives and so many musical heroes of mine. >> sure. >> what centered you? why are you here making this incredible music, and why are you -- and i am serious, among the living and being really productive? >> you know what, everybody journey is different. i will say i've been fortunate.

my family was a very strong grounding presence in the morale of who i am and to have an awareness about how fortunate i am and not take it for granted, about the experience that i've had. family has been huge, and really, it is. you know, surrounding yourself with people that you think are good like focus on the good. don't -- it's like you can smell when something is off you know what i mean. and you can see you can see -- now sometimes you can't, look, everybody has gone through look we went through something as a band where we were kind of, you know, told one thing and another thing took place. and we learned from that. and i think those experiences were helpful in the growth. but, again, he think my family, first. >> that's it. the new album playing with fire is streaming now wherever you get your music grammy nominated

musician jc chasez thanks for coming on the show and good luck with this. it's amazing. and good luck with this. it's amazing. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ woah, limu! we're in a parade. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see.

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hello and welcome to this special holiday edition of "morning joe." we're on tape this morning, bringing you some of our best, recent conversations. including a piece in the economist, offering tips from a dozen foreign diplomats and american officials on, quote, how to avoid oval office humiliation when president-elect trump returns to the white house. >> joining us now the author of that piece, david renne. good morning. the fact that we have to say that outloud tells us something about this incoming administration. what do you say to foreign leaders as they deal with donald trump once again? >> look, every foreign ministry and government worth its salt is

preparing madly for how to deal with donald trump because they were taken by surprise in 2016. not that many suspected he would win. and it was a pretty rough experience. for some world leaders, angela merkel in germany, justin trudeau in canada who we know from trump officials at the time, he came to really loathe them and that had consequences for their country's policies. look, foreign governments, they don't get to vote in american elections. they have to choice. they have to deal with the president of america. they are all studying, comparing notes, looking at what works and didn't work last time. the column i wrote is trying to tackle the advice you hear is really, really simplistic. you flatter the guy. you feed him burgers and ice cream. you give him treats and presents like golf club. and the problem s you're not organizing a toddler's birthday party here. you are actually trying to run foreign policy with a world superpower. i set out to speak to people who had been in the room for between them hundreds of hours and who had seen what works and what

didn't work. >> so, david, there is a sense that flattery, to some extent, does work. all these cabinet picks that he's laying out, for example, all appear on fox news, flatter donald trump, support him. i'm remembering back at the beginning of the first trump term when he travelled to saudi arabia and they projected his face on the side of the hotel. president macron has come to understand how to massage donald trump politically as well. so what are the limits, though, to that flattery. you say that's not quite enough to get what you want from him. >> yeah. so literally ambassadors and diplomats would say to me, flattery is sometimes essential, but that doesn't mean that you're going to change his mind or trick him or distract him into doing something that he doesn't intend to do. it's almost like a down payment. i think there is agreement among people who negotiated with him that he's a bully. he likes to be the most powerful man in the room and likes deference. that flattery snot something

that makes him happy. it's like an animals in a farm yard, you roll over on your back and show that you're the submissive animal. that's the role of the flattery. but a crucial point is that he will only listen to people flattering him if he respects their strength. and the thing that seems to frustrate him the most is what he calls passive/aggressive preachy lecturing, whiny leaders. a lot of european leaders fall into that camp. he likes leaders who can deliver on a deal he can cut with them at the moment in the oval office or when he visits them abroad. so that's really what interests him. and the flattery is necessary, but one diplomat said, it's not a silver bullet. >> we saw wildly different responses yesterday from the leaders of mexico and canada. we heard from trump's advisers who want to schedule another meeting with kim jong-un, leader of the north korea, believing the face to face diplomacy could

help relationships there. the trump team, the first time around leaned into the idea, man man theory, he was so unpredictable, that made him hard to deal with. do you think that could be effective for him going guard? >> it works as long as people don't think you're bluffing. one of the concerns is that sometimes a lot of those far and fury threats to kind of potentially start a war with north korea, people came to believe in some pretty rough corners of the world that actually he wasn't really that keen on using military force. he likes to talk tough. he talks big, but it's not real. i can tell you that because until recently i was in beijing. by the end of the first time, they took him seriously, he could hit their economy with huge tariff. they don't underestimate how dangerous he could be. he's not as hawkish or tough or keen on military force as he likes to make out.

their view is that he was a very transactional guy surrounded by genuine china hawks. if only they can get to him and cut a deal directly, actually maybe he doesn't ve in very much. i think the world's dictators are weary of him, that unpredictability clearly gives him an edge. he came to learn he's not quite as tough and willing to start wars as some of his rhetoric might lead you to think. >> we're about to find out. geopolitics editor at "the economist" david rennie. we appreciate it. up next, important for the holidays, transportation secretary pete buttigieg will join the conversation with an announcement. the conversation announcement

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two centimeters that's too big, mr. schroeder? >> well, we recognize this is a hard job, so therefore we incentivize them to do that. >> how much? >> it's $10 per bag. >> you appreciate that flying on your airlines is a disaster? i'm slightly amazed by the general attitude. flying on your airlines is horrible. it's terrible experience. i mean, i say this as a father of three young children. but i can't tell you, nobody enjoys flying on your airlines. it's a disaster. >> republican senator josh hawley of missouri addressing the ceos of major airlines at a hearing yesterday on capitol hill. with commercial air travel now surpassing pre-covid levels, the biden administration this morning is laying the groundwork to further protect stranded passengers when airlines cancel or significantly change flights. under the potential new regulations, airlines would have to pay passengers at least $200 in cash compensation, rebook

their next flight at no additional cost and cover meals, overnight lodging and related transportation expenses relating from the delay or cancellation. let's bring in transportation secretary pete buttigieg with more on this. mr. secretary, thank you for joining us this morning. these seem to, most travelers, like common sense solutions to a progress that plague so many of us with the airport so busy, you get delayed, you get cancelled, where am i going to stay? where is my next meal coming. so how close do you believe you are to getting these implemented? >> well, we have to go through a process getting a lot of public input and data, but this launches a process that i think will lead to more improvements for passengers. there's really two goals here. make sure those kinds of disruptions are less likely to happen in the first place and make sure you're taken care of when you do. that's a big part of our push over the last several years as we expanded passenger rights and putting pressure on the airlines. cancellation rates have improved

substantially. so far this year it's around 1.3%. so we know that this approach work. making sure there's consequences when you let passengers down, and if that does happen, passengers are better taken care of. what's new here is for the first time we're launching a process where the department would consider cash compensation and other requirements about what the airline has to do in those situations if it's caused by the airline. we get that nobody controls the weather. but if the airline gets you stuck, there ought to be some kind of regard, not only for getting you on your way, but also for the cost in terms of your time. and i would note that these kinds of policies are something you'll see widely used around the world, but up until now we have not seen them in the united states. >> mr. secretary, it's not often i would be agreeing on senator josh hawley on much, i certainly agree with him on that clip we just showed at the hearing.

commercial air travel in america, for the average flying customer, people like me, is a nightmare. what can we do about the fact that when an airline is delaying a flight, incomprehensively long, three hours or whatever, what can we do about getting a cash payment back for the ticket? because it has inflicted pain on our time, on customer's times, on family times. but the airlines seem hesitant to just say, okay, here's a refund. >> well, that's something that we have enacted through our automatic refund rule. that is taking effect this year. and i think will make a big difference. the idea here is if an airline owes you, as they do for a flight that's cancelled or delayed past a certain amount, a three-hour threshold for domestic flights, longer for international flights, then you shouldn't have to fight or send

abemail or negotiate to get your money back. it should just come to you. and we finally were able to do that this year. what we're now announcing with today's process, is that you would also get some kind of compensation for your time. a lot of places around the world where you would get some level of cash. and the concept that is in this proposal would start at a $200 cash payment to you in addition to anything else that you're entitled to if you are stuck and it's because of the airline. also, requirements around rebookings and they got to put you on the next available seat. and if they don't have one after a certain amount of time, they have to be ready to put you on a seat of another airline. covering hotels and ground transportation. we've already got enforceable agreements with the airlines -- with most of the airlines requiring or providing that, but there's never been a rule that sets a floor, which means the airlines could change that. this could set a new framework for that. all of that is designed to address that core frustration

that you're talking about, that feeling that so many of have as passengers that we're not being well taken care of. i can tell you not just as a policymaker, not just as an agency head who fields thousands of complaints that come into our department, but just as a frequent flier, i'll in a few minutes be hopping on a flight here at o'hare. i know how frustrating that can be. and i know that we can get results through enforcement, transparency and better regulation like this. >> so mr. secretary, you're laying the groundwork here for these changes. but obviously the biden administration is in its final days. you've spoken to donald trump's selection to take your job if he were to be confirmed. does the incoming trump administration seem on board with what you guys are putting out there? >> well, we'll have to see what steps they take. but i will say this, you know, they have said a lot of things and gone through a lot of motions that are populist. i think that will be tested in many way.

and one important test of that will be to see if the next administration follows through on what we've initiated and maintains the rules that we've created and the enforcement practices that we've created to hold airlines accountable. i have seen several airline ceos express their hopes that the next administration will be less passenger friendly and more corporate friendly than we are, but i don't think that's guaranteed. i think that as that clip showed, there's actually bipartisan interest, bipartisan desire to continue advancing these passenger protections. i am proud that on our watch during this administration, during my time as secretary, we've delivered the biggest expansion in airline passenger rights in the history of the department. i would certainly challenge any future administration to maintain that record and build on it. >> secretary buttigieg, on another issue, the future of the democratic national committee,

there are people that have already announced that they're running to be the new chair. some rumors that you may look at it. whether you will seek this or not is the first part of my question. and secondly, if not, where do you think the dnc needs be guiding its emphasis now? what direction should it take being that it only lost presidential election less than 2%. >> so, i will not. i'm not entering that process. but of course, like so many people, i'm watching it with a lot of interest. that's about as much as i can say about the party's side just because i'm appearing as a federal official right now. but, certainly something i'm watching as a citizen, something i care about. and one other thing that i would note is that from a policy perspective and as we think of the future of the country, i believe that we not only have a lot of great leaders to work with in washington who i do

believe in, in the house, in the senate, some of them just coming in, having just been elected, some of them i have been working with for the last several years who have been such a support to this administration, helping us get our work done, but also i hope that we don't overlook what state and local leaders are doing. there is extraordinary leadership out there, so much of it coming from different figures and different generations on our side of the aisle. and, i really believe that's going to be a huge part of the way forward. >> transportation secretary pete buttigieg, always good to see you. and thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you a lot for having me on. still to come here, it's one of the biggest video games of all time. but it almost never happened. we'll take a look at the new docuseries about the madden game franchise and hear the never before told story of how it

became a worldwide phenomenon. "morning joe" will be right back. orldwide phenomenon. "morning joe" will be right back

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ea sports, it's one of the best sellers in video game history. >> welcome to john madden football. >> it's in the game. >> it's in the game. >> i guarantee you, baby, it's in the game. ♪♪ >> this was a piece of culture. it wasn't just a video game. >> i'm one of these guys who got into football through madden. >> my first dream was try to make it to the league. i'm kind of living my athletic dreams through this game. >> you want to know what it will be like to be troy aikman, i'll play troy aikman. >> we're starting in complete chaos. >> we weren't seeing progress. >> most of us at ea wondered if the game would ever get finished. >> we just didn't think it would amount to anything. >> bam. boom. >> we needed some fire power. >> let's play defense. >> john madden is the man. >> he's ready to completely change the game. >> i remember john saying don't do anything to screw up my name. >> so that was a look at the new

docuseries that premieres today, titled "it's in the game" madden nfl. the four-part series goes behind the scenes of one of the most popular video game franchises of all time, focussing on the influential figure and name sake at the center of it all. super bowl winning head coach and emmy award winning broadcaster, the late john madden. joining us now is his son, mike madden, along with the hall of fame coach's long-time agent and friend, sandy montag, the president of the montag group which represents other prominent sports broadcasters and one of the executive producers of the new docuseries. full disclosure, i had my time playing madden. mid '90s was my hay day, revived around '07 to throw deep balls to brandy moss from tom brady. hall of famer, super bowl winning coach, the broadcaster, most famous football broadcaster

we've ever had but one could argue he's best known for this. talk to us about this unlikely marriage between your father and this video game franchise. >> well, he thought he was pretty famous when he was winning super bowls and, you know, winning 100 games in ten years. and then it came to a shock to him when he was -- he did the miller lite commercial and became the guy who busts through the paper. then there was a third leg to his fame when kids in new york city started poking their heads out the windows and they started yelling, hey, madden, hey, madden. and he's like, where is this coming from? it's the game. it's this video game because he had been deep into his broadcasting career when the game kind of hit its full stride. so, yeah, it took him by surprise. >> so sandy, tell us about the documentary series, and the origins of this game, which, you know, was not destined necessarily to be a hit, forget

the legend it became. >> well, the game's 40 years old, practically, 35, 40 years old. we never thought it would come back. back in the late '80s, john and i just thought this was a whacky guy who started a company called electronic arts and he had this idea for a computer game and wanted to put john's name on it and couldn't put all 22 players on the screen. it was just -- something we never thought would happen. to see it 35 years later where it's sold over 100 million units around the around the world, it's just astonishing to see. i know john was very proud to have his name oints. >> eugene daniels, who played college football, more an expert on this sport than i am, has the next question. >> hey, mike, this is making me think of playing tournaments in my college dorm while i was playing football with all the guys playing madden. when you think about how the game, not just changed the gaming industry, but also how it's changed and influenced

culture, how do you think about it as the son of madden here? >> you know, it's -- these things, they start as little germs and then they grow. and so when he started it, it was the late '80s. like sandy alluded to, he was taking this guy, trip hawkins would ride with him on the train. and it was going to be a computer game. i was a techmo bowl player. i was fighting to get walter peyton in techmo bowl. to know that dad's game was on a path to kind of replace techmo bowl, i thought that was ambitious. but, the one time it struck me is when these players are playing tournaments and i'm going through my -- i'm scrolling through what i want to watch on a sunday afternoon and there's madden this, madden, madden, madden, i have no idea what dad was up to. it had nothing to do with dad. it was you could watch these tournaments on tv. i was like, wow, this is getting

pretty big. >> techmo wl, the only games that can hold a candle to. sandy, it's sort of unlikely this first game came out at all. talk to us about the struggles at the outset and did john madden need any convincing to do this? >> well, i think the biggest struggle was technology part of it. it was a computer game. it came out on a floppy disk. and the ggest problem they had was getting 22 players on the screen. trip said at one point, we have a 7 on 7, we're not going to have any linemen. john madden was an offensive line men but he played, i'm not putting my name on the game unless there are 22 players. the biggest struggle was technology in the beginning. they were late. they were a couple years late coming out with the game. and i just remembered john telling me, it's not going to happen. it doesn't matter what sort of deal we do with these people, the game is never going to come out. when it finally did, you know, i

think, mike will attest it to, john was proud that it took years in the making but it finally made it. and really to have especially this week celebrating thanksgiving and the documentary coming out today, it's something that i know john is very proud of. >> yeah. certainly john madden, so associated with thanksgiving and certainly this video game. all four episodes of the new docu series "it's in the game:madden nfl" are streaming now on prime video. thank you both very much. welcome back. our next guests are two "new york times" best selling authors with two beloved detective characters who are both embarking on new adventures and two brand new books. i know that's hard to follow. here they are, authors james patterson and mike lupica. the 33rd installment in the alex

cross series. while lupica's book, "robert b. parker's hot property." first started by the late robert b. parker. you guys have published four books -- >> i have my vanderbilt hat on today by the way, since joe isn't there. >> yeah. >> vanderbilt beat alabama. >> safe space to go vanderbilt here. willie is thrilled. yeah, we're not -- we spent many minutes yesterday on alabama's defeat, we'll try to set that aside today. >> i know. we watched. >> for orders of mr. scarborough. you're here in a bit of a tradition to talk about each other's new works. it's a strange cross promotional buddy cop movie. >> cross promotional. >> mike, why don't you start by telling us about james new book. >> well, house of cross.

and the great thing about the alex cross books, spencer started back in the '70s. alex cross came along in the '90s. they have become two of the most iconic crime novel figures of all time. but he is still balancing job and family. and that to me has always been the foundation of the alex cross books. if anybody is watching the new cross series on prime video, you're going to want to read this book and go back and finish cross because hodge has become a great character. all i can tell you about the new cross nofl is jim has decided to kill some judges, jonathan. judges are dropping like flies at the beginning of this book. >> all right. all right. >> one of the weird things is way back when -- parker won best novel and i won best first novel the same day, which is kind of

weird. this is for edgar awards. that's when i met parker and forgot the name of the character. i read all the books. spencer, like the poet kid. that was my initial thing with parker. but the thing about hot property, mike's book, is after parker died for a couple of books i stopped reading the spencer books. i loved them. i read all of them. and when mike came back, he has the voice. he has the dialogue is right now. and that was the hallmark of parker's writing, dialogue which is spectacularly good, funny and you know, whatever. and the new book, it's got -- all your favorites. citizen silverman, the love of his life is there. it's a terrific, terrific book. i love it. >> you did a good job selling each other's books which i have right here, we should note. but now the question is you guys have teamed up so much, mike, are you guys working on something -- another new one

together? >> another two of them actually. >> yeah. >> of course. >> we had two jane smith books about this feisty, incredible lawyer. and the third one called "never say die" will come out next summer. renee zel wirg signed up with hbo max to play jane smith on television. because we never close, we also have a book that's already ready for 2026. and john, i'm just working like this because i'm constantly fearful that he'll just take on artificial intelligence as a co-writer, patterson and ai. that's why i'm a hamster on a wheel working with this guy. >> fear is a good motivation. they are the two most productive people in the business. james' new book, "the house of cross" on sale now and mike's new book "robert b. parker's hot property" also the same. james patterson, mike lu-pica,

happy thanksgiving. thank you, guys. >> thank you. coming up, we'll take a look at the new movie conclave, which tells the story of cardinals who must select a new pope while uncovering secrets and scandals of the candidates set to replace him. we'll speak with six-time emmy award winning actor johnlith goe and the film's director about their new thriller. that's next on "morning joe." ir their new thriller that's next on "morning joe.

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the pope is dead. >> the throne is vacant. >> what happened? >> they say heart attack. >> you know how murder spreads. >> it seems the responsibility for the conclave falls upon you. >> the supervision of the selection, this duty i never thought i would have to perform.

name must be shielded from all news that may influence their judgment. you understand? >> a look at the new movie "conclave" which is based on the best selling novel of the same name by author robert harris. the film features an all-star cast led by academy award nominated actor ray finnes and takes a thrilling look behind the walls of the vatican for one of the world's most secretive yet consequential decision making processes on the globe, electing a new pope. >> by the way, this is getting five stars from barnacle which is the equivalent of rex reed callings it boppo. five stars. >> and joins us now john lithgow and the director and executive producer of "conclave" the

academy award winning edward burger. good to have you both with us on the show. >> so great to have you here. and john, i want to start with you and the due alty that is so fascinating. my you know, my mom, my mom was a devout christian. she had a masters in music. she said, joey, if you ever want to lose your religion, just work at a church. and there's this d-duality goal. talk about that friction and how it really adds such an important, dramatic impact to this. >> well, that's a very good question, joe. i mean, it is a movie about the college of cardinals picking a pope. so it's an electoral process. and it takes you right into all

the maneuverings. the fact that it is men of god, cardinals all bickering with all of their jealousies and greed and deviousness and cowardice, all these extremely human qualities, all right out on the table. but they are in conclaves, sequestered in the sistine chapel. that's exactly the right word, duality, for the entire transaction. >> your character seems a bit more motivated by the secular than the spiritual, the ambition, right? >> uh-huh, yes. if there was a business manager of a college of cardinals, it would be cardinal trindla-y. he knows where all the bills were paid, bodies are hidden. so he's automatically somewhat -- you're very ready to

suspect him, in my opinion. he was my character. so i'm very devoted to him and loyal to him. i think he's a very good man and i want you to watch the film with that in mind. >> we shall. come in with no precon ceived notions. edward, tell us about the origins of this. the world is used to watching for the white or black smoke to come up. but don't know much else about what happens in the sistine chapel. tell us how you decided to bring that to life. >> well, i felt it was a really interesting, mysterious process that i wanted to look behind the doors of that. and obviously no cardinal will ever tell you what happens. no person high up in the catholic church will ever tell you, but you have your ways of interpreting. you have this research that you can do. and i felt it was a very interesting, political thriller. it takes us in a world that we haven't seen before. we have seen it in washington, but i felt like let's -- it

could take place at nbc, you know, the ceo is gone and the chair is empty and john and ray will get out their knives and try to get that job. and it could take place in washington, d.c. but i felt like rome, we haven't seen the vatican where these men are bickering for their position and falling apart over it was an interesting setting. >> edward, you do a lot of book to film adaptations. explain to us sort of why. >> well, i felt -- i always feel, you know, a movie is a lot -- there's a lot of intellectual backbone to it. and if there's a novelist, they tend to spend a long time over their books. they do a lot of research. robert harris has done a lot of research. he knows his way around rome, around the vatican. we profit from that intellectual work that has been done, you know. all that thinking that flows into a book. and generally has quite a bit of depth and more depth than you

can just come up when you vied a screen play on your own. but any way, that's not a general rule. but a lot of books have that intellectual depth that we benefit from. >> and john, you know, you guys don't really shy away in this film. and i think it's important to talk about not only the frailties and the failings of humans, who after all run churches, but also what we see inside the catholic church. some of the scandals, some of the prejudices, the racial prejudices, the prejudices toward women and also, of course, the sex scandal that rocked the church for so long. >> uh-huh. yes. well, they're all men. their all flawed human beings. sometimes they forget that about themselves. they think they're above all that. and, yes, there's all varieties of behaviors among all these people.

among other things, the college of cardinals is a very international group. they speak a whole spectrum of different languages and languages put to work. you hear four or five different languages spoken. we make lots of use of subtitles. that's how realestic the film -- if the film was made 50 years ago, we would all be speaking in english, polish, spanish, italian accents. but this is -- edward has been meticulous about making every detail, every granular aspect of this absolutely authentic, and that includes human behavior. >> right. >> wow. >> and i would guess, edward, the greatest challenge of making it as accurate as possible is that it is one of the most secretive processes in one of the most powerful organizations that has had the longest history

on earth. how did you peek behind the curtain? how do you take viewers behind the curtain to see this most secretive of processes? >> well, that was a very important aspect of making the movie, of bringing the audience close to this process of showing them all the details. and there's one person -- we had one person basically a professor of liturgy and philosophy who helped us everyday. he knew a lot about the way they vote, you know the way they hold the ballots, the way that the oath is said, the prayers that are said, he knew a lot about it. and there were sort of cornerstones of authenticity that we could hammer into the ground. and that was sort of our playing field. in between, sometimes i ask francesca, how would they do this? he says, well, could be this, could be that.

it's open to interpretation. we're not claiming everything is absolutely right. we're trying to hint the truth as much as possible. >> flawed human beings and flawed actors at that. >> well, the new movie "conclave" is in theaters nationwide and is streaming now. john lithgow and edward burger, thank you both very much. >> thank you, guys. >> for coming on the show and sharing it with us. coming up, the new documentary, "facing the falls" tells the story of disability rights advocate as she takes a 12-day journey through the grand canyon. the subject of the film joins us along with one of the film's executive producers chelsea clinton. film's executive producers chelsea clinton. thanks for swingin' by, carl. no problem. so, what are all of those for? ah, this one lets me adjust the bass. add more guitar. maybe some drums. wow, so many choices. yeah. like schwab. i can get full-service wealth management, advice, invest on my own, and trade on thinkorswim. you know carl is the only frontman you need... oh i gotta take this carl, it's schwab.

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that's a look at the extraordinary new documentary short titled "facing the falls" premiering globally this morning on international day persons with disabilities. the film follows cara whether or not lives with a rare muscle weakening disease as she embarks on a courageous, yes, dangerous journey to cross the grand canyon. cara joins us now and one of the film's executive producers chelsea clinton. good morning to you kboet. i'm excited to see you, cara after watching this. what an extraordinary trip you took to the grand canyon. you were just saying this has been something like ten years in the making. what gave you such an audacious idea as to make a 12-day trek through canyon. >> i had moved to the united states after living in 11 glorious countries around the world, doing grand adventures there. i came to the u.s. and thought

what's more grand than the grand canyon. to find out it was a natural wonder of the world, this is something i don't want to go and take a photograph at the edge, but get into it. but i wouldn't walk unassisted at the time. so we had to be creative in how we were going to make this happen. >> so one of the things you did, you were just telling merks i took a donky part of the way down. didn't come close to doing what you did. and it terrified me. you wanted to learn to ride a mustang. tell me about that. >> yeah. i knew i wouldn't be able to walk down. the princess that i am didn't want to ride a donkey. i wanted to go in and cross it rim to rim. i contacted a local therapeutic writing program. asked them if they would teach me to ride in 2014. trained for this for four year. but as i was training, we had to constantly adapt particularly the adaptive equipment of riding the horse. i was becoming weaker and weaker from head to toe.

but, we did it with a lot of teamwork. a lot of creative and innote vative ways as people with disabilities have to do to make this happen. >> chelsea, one of the great things about this film that you executive produced is that it is available to everyone on youtube starting today. >> yes. >> there's to barrier to see it. >> it's available for free on youtube. it's available with audio assisted technology, with closed captions. we wanted anyone and everyone to be able to see this film because willie, as you've gotten a sense, she's just extraordinary. and certainly an inspiration to my mom and me and we think an inspiration to everyone. >> cara, i wanted to show another clip. this is some scenes from the film showing you and your team battling those elements across the grand canyon. let's take a look. >> okay. deep breath. >> absolutely terrified. >> i know you are. but see the people ahead. >> no, i can't. >> i'm with you. >> step again.

again. one more. >> all forward. >> hold on. ♪♪ >> how do you feel, cara? >> fantastic. didn't fall out of the boat. >> didn't fall out of the boat. this is a difficult enough journey with someone who does not have a disability. what gave you the strength to keep going? what were you thinking about? what propelled you? >> first and foremost, it's an adventure film. so often see a white male. they don't think of a biracial southeastern woman with a

disability. there's the advocacy piece that comes with someone who has an adult on set, chronic illness. we're the same person as our body changes but prove to the world that we're the same person. so some of that performance was a driver, which is a very able-ist mindset but also the team. i had a wonderful crew and expedition team around me who i trusted explicitly to keep us safe. this project is about hundreds of people who have been involved. and they very much were what drove me forward. i felt accountable to them and the disability community i was representing. >> you served it very well. chelsea, you and your mom and your production company see a lot of pitches, see a lot come across your desk. i don't really have to ask to you what appealed to you about this story, but what really struck you when you first heard it? >> cara is so extraordinary, as i think is evident in our conversation here and certainly from the clips and my mom and i

are deeply compelled and committed to platforming and amplifying the stories of extraordinarily brave and inspiring people, particularly women. and i think that cara's story of resilience and the constant, as you'll see in the film, just persistence and problem solving of -- we may have to figure out a different way to do this, to get done, to get through, to get up, to get over. for those of us certainly who are able bodied to not think, if she did this, what could we do? what must we do which i think is a question a lot of us are asking ourselves these days. >> cara-r you are amazing. the new documentary short is called "facing the falls" streaming right now free on youtube. anybody can go watch it now right now. rock star, cara, executive producer chelsea clinton. congratulations. great to see you both. >> thank you so much, willie. >> thank you. ♪♪ ♪

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good morning and welcome to this special holiday edition of "morning joe." bringing you some of our best recent segments. let's dive right in. >> hey, jean, we're going to bring george packard in one minute, but i thought before we did that, we're going to set this up. and then we're going to cross-examine george. i think george is one of the best and the brightest. >> i don't think that's what he signed up for. >> i don't think that's what he signed up for. he's very insightful. there's a debate, i think i might be on one side of that debate and talked about it earlier. i'm curious what your thought. there's a lot of talk about how the democratic party has to re-examine everything they've done. i've talked about, massive gains in texas, in florida, in middle america, that is true. but there is another side of that. the slimmest majority in the house of representatives since herbert hoover, you had a

three-vote margin in the united states senate. and then if you go state by state, state by state, less than 1 percentage point in wisconsin. about less than 1.5 percentage points in michigan. about 1.5 percentage points in pennsylvania. that's the difference between democratic president and a republican president. also one other thing, when everybody talks about the rise of the far right and everything else, donald 2024 than he got i 2020. voted against kamala harris in large numbers because she was a woman. or because she was a black woman. even though the united states of america almost stands alone in not electing women to the top spot, right? but you look at these states,

right? you and i remember like 1972. 1984. even 1980. remember all of those democrats that got swept out in these landslides, kamala harris barely lost wisconsin. tammy baldwin, democratic senator won. kamala harris barely lost michigan, and yet alyssa slotkin won. she lost pennsylvania, but man, they had to go a couple of weeks before figuring out whether bob casey had won or lost. so, again, we're talking about the thinnest of margins. so this is one of those things we say all the time, two things can be true at once. i believe democrats need to examine what they've done. at the same time, let's not pretend that this was a 1984 style landslide. this was an election within the margin of errors and those three swing states up north, if harris

wins -- gets an extra 1, 1.5, 2% she's president. so are you going to blow everything up for 1.5%? >> yeah, you're not. i mean, in my opinion, you're not. you're going to settle down. you're going to get back -- step back from the ledge. and you're going to -- yes, you're going to look at a loss because you did lose the election. but, no, you're not going to blow everything up. the country is very evenly divided. and these elections are close one way or the other. if i were advising the democratic party, i would say one thing you really need to look at is your declining share among latino voters. i don't think the democratic

party understands the latino community or latino voters because there are actually a number of different communities. they don't understand that portion of the electorate well enough. and it's a growing portion of the electorate that needs to be understood. but, no. i don't think you have to start from scratch and say let's tear down the entire democratic party and build a new one. you did, after all, go into this election with a black and south asian woman at the head of the ticket. and while we didn't talk about that a whole lot, nonetheless, this is the united states of america. and i don't think you'll ever convince me that that had no impact on the result. and again, we're talking 1.5%. >> 1%. >> one way or the other so you

know. >> so to that point -- >> this is what happened. >> yeah. but to that point, there is some hard realities and some major work to be done to make for a resounding win. >> of course. >> so that those issues don't -- >> of course. >> let's bring in george packer, who writes for the publication's new issue about the end of democratic delusions, arguing the 2024 election has launched us into a new era, one he calls the trump reaction. i thought we were already in that era. anyhow, msnbc contributor mike barnicle joins the conversation. >> so mr. packer, we have presented our opening argument. we turn it over to you, the prosecution. go. >> yeah, i certainly got the feeling as i was watching earlier that i had actually signed up for a firing squad here. >> no, no, no, no, no. >> i will do my best. first, don't put me in a corner

where i never win. i am not saying the democratic party is finished and needs to be rebuilt from scratch. you've been talking about some historical parallels. i would draw an analogy and, joe, you remember to 1968 when richard nixon barely defeated the incumbent vice president, who had taken over for the incumbent president who had withdrawn from the race. that was a really close election. but it signaled a change, a big change, which was the end really of new deal liberalism. it didn't happen all at once. it took maybe 12 years until ronald reagan swept it away there 1980. but that's where i'm looking more a trend, which is the trend toward populism, right wing populism. it's a global phenomenon. yes, mika you're right, it's been coming in this country for eight years. but the fact that donald trump

won again despite being pretty unpopular. despite having try to overthrow an election, despite being a convicted felon, tells me that that trend, that sentiment in the public, to get rid of old institutions, to overthrow the status quo, it's a really strong one. strong enough to re-elect this i would say degenerate felon and democrats would be foolish not to look at that and say, we may be defending a status quo that the country has had enough of. >> so, george, in the piece that you where for the "atlantic" you outline a couple periods of time, 1964, massive democratic majority, the majority lasted until 1980 when the reagan revolution began. 1980 you can argue the reagan revolution probably ended in 2003 with george w. bush takes us into iraq. but what at least i didn't

gather from the piece was the impact of an outside force called the culture on our politics. did not that change everything in terms of persuasion? iphones, the internet, twitter, the impact that the culture had on our politics was far more important, i think, than any candidate, any specific candidate. >> i think that's a great point, mike. i did talk about the challenge for journalists in an age where facts have ceased to exist. there's simply no way to make facts stick with billionaire-owned platforms pouring disinformation and ees and propaganda at followers and account holders every minute of the every day, which is unlike anything the media has ever seen before. in a way, it's a bigger problem than i've said. democrats are talking about what new policies might work to bring back latino voters, to bring

back younger voters, to bring back especially working-class voters. well, what if policies and the facts that you bring to support those policies no longer matter. no longer stick with voters. and instead, as you say, mike, it's culture, it's motion, it's images, and it's lies, which people are -- have become unable to separate from the truth. that's something that worries me more than kash patel running the fbi. though that worries me, too. >> george, so much talk in the last four weeks about soul searching in the democratic party, how it needs to change the way it talks to voters, how it needs to change its message and appeal. that's easier said than done. that's a reputation that's been earned over decades, as you write about in the piece this anti-elitism stuck to democrats now. donald trump, the billionaire, with an apartment on fifth avenue, who lives in a castle by the beach is the man of the people. but he has made that sale. so how did democrats begin to

pull back some of the message that the party was built on so many years ago, which is reaching out to ing class voters? >> i mean, i am not someone the party should turn to for political advice. i don't like to play that role. but as i say in the piece, i think the party is strongest when it focuses on economics and especially the economics of struggling people in this country and what they need and what they want. and not on cultural issues that are devicive and that divide the democratic party within itself, even as much as it divides democrats from republicans. the gradual but really long-term change in the identity of the party from a working class-based party to an educated professional party has given it some new voters but mostly it's lost voter. and that trend continued in 2024, in new york city where i

am right now, where i live, the boroughs that showed trump's vote increase were the working class and non-white majority boroughs, queens, bronx. the borough where harris' vote increased over biden's was manhattan, white and well-to do voters. that's a future the democratic party can win on. >> all right. george packer, we thank you. >> a piece online for "the atlantic". >> providing the citizen cane-like lighting. >> very dramatic. it looks good. >> five star as you said a new standard. >> thank you, george. coming up a look at the search for a new leader of the democratic national committee. we'll be joined by one of the candidates, wisconsin democratic party chair, ben wickler.

"morning joe" is coming right back with that. chair, ben wicklr "morning joe" is coming right back with that

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the race to lead the democratic national committee is beginning to take shape. four candidates have officially thrown their hats in the ring. the chair of the minnesota democratic farmer labour party, ken martin, martin o'malley and new york state senator james skoufis. good to have all these putting their hats in the ring. but here now with us is wisconsin democratic party chairman, ben wickler, who joins us now. and ben, your hat is in the ring, too. i want to know, it came from a state that kamala harris lost. so what makes you the logical next step to lead the party? and what do you think the biggest challenge is for the party moving forward? >> good morning, mika. thanks for having me on today. we need a fighter who can unite the party, fight in every state

and win even in tough conditions. and wisconsin did go for trump by the smallest margin of any state that trump won. we had the smallest swing towards trump of any battleground state. we won our u.s. senate race. we won 14 state legislative seats that we flipped from red to blue. and the reason we could do all that is because we built a permanent campaign here that organizes and communicates in red, purple and blue areas non-stop. trump and the maga republicans have now taken over full control of the federal government. we know they're going to try to abuse their power and shred the federal budget to give trillions of dollars to billionaires at the expense of working people. and we have seen this movie before in wisconsin. republicans took total control here and in a frenzy of hand-outs and right wing attacks, attacked unions, defunded public schools, gerrymandered maps, suppressed the vote but we figured out how to fight back in wisconsin by organizing in rural and suburban areas and cities alike and we need to do the same thing nationwide to defeat the threat of the maga extremists and the

plu tok rasy trump wants to create and win up and down the ballot for the next four years. >> you're saying what happened in wisconsin just needs to be done more? are you saying there are no ways the democratic party may need to change strategy in order to start winning again? >> we absolutely need to adapt and change. to your question, what is the biggest challenge we have? we can see in all the data in the last election that there are working people across the country, across race and ethnicity, across gender, ideology, people who had taken it on the chin with inflation, who felt the pandemic-era supports go away and then had trouble being able to fill prescriptions and buy groceries at the same time. and the people who were paying the least attention to politics often because they were struggling with so much in their own lives, they are the folks that lost. what we can tell, they are not hearing our message. the volume and clarity we needed. voters only hear about democrats from republicans, then we're

going to lose. so we have to adapt how and where we communicate so that we're reaching the people who are not thinking about politics everyday, trying to make through their own lives and make clear to them through our words and our actions that we are fighting for them against a group of people who are trying to divide america in order to enrich themselves. and that's what you see around trump and in donald trump in the trump administration. >> another group that democrats lost this time around, latinos. an erosion of support there. you know, certainly not a monolithic group, let's make that clear. but what would be some of the messages to win back a bloc that had been reliably democratic for a while but broke in surprising way for trump this time around. >> most latinos and most americans across ethnicity and race are working class folks. folks who are not making hundreds of thousands or millions or billions of dollars a year. they're folks trying to make sure they can take care of their families and build the kind of lives they need. and latinos and other americans

are struggling with the price of housing. their frustrated about the price of groceries. and their question -- the question that all voters had, who is on my side? who is fighting for me? i think for democrats, the central appeal is actually in making the case that we're fighting for people to have a better life. now, that starts and centers on the economy. it also means freedom and dignity and respect that should be the birthright of every american, a core part of how we interact with each other in this country, there's a lot to do on all these fronts. but if people don't think you're for them, they're not interested in your position on any other issue. i think we're about to see, we know, trump will try to give multitrillion dollar tax handouts to billionaires and democratic party that fights against that, that spotlights republicans talked a good game about all kinds of other stuff, but their real agenda is to sell off this country to the highest bidder and the highest bidders are those who funded donald trump's campaign and are now about to reap the rewards. we have to fight back and that's how we by fighting and enact the

party. >> chair of the democratic party of wisconsin, ben wickler. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. so gene, adaptly and deftly as you can speak about the nfl, it's not what you're writing about this morning. your new column is titled "the truth about biden's aid to africa" is being lost on republicans. bide president biden concludes a trip to africa the first of his term and likely his last foreign trip in office. he was in angola, gene. let's talk a little bit about that trip and how important the continent of africa is right now in the world. >> it's really important because the united states needs to seriously get back into the game in terms africa. in terms of population, the fastest growing part of the world. it's the only part of the world where populations are not leveling off or even declining.

and in the year 2051, human being out of four is going to live in africa. that's where most -- a huge percentage of the working age adults will be. that's where development is going to be happening in a major major way and china and russia have been -- have been expanding their links and their influence on the continent. china is building projects, just from one tip of africa to the other in so many countries. and the united states, you know, is kind of -- has kind of been supplanted by china and to a lesser extent by russia on the african continent. i think that's a real mistake. and it's a great thing that president biden went there to out the a railroad project in angola but also to demonstrate

that, no, the united states is not -- is not abandoning africa and wants to be there to help in any way it can as this massive development takes place and as africa becomes ever more important on the world stage. >> yeah. can't be overstated the investment that china made on this continent with belt and road program. you worked for george w. bush, a republican president, who did spend a lot of time, who did focus on africa. but then when donald trump was in office, his four years, never went there once. spoke about it disparagingly, he's about to take office again. do you expect more of the same? >> i expect trump to look at most foreign aid and scorn it. who knows what he's actually going to act on those. i'm waiting to see how he can actually implement his policy and if he is going to appoint figure heads to these cabinets and to the deputy levels who don't know the bureaucracy well

enough and aren't able to maneuver with sharp elbows. so he actually won't get much of his agenda done. republicans should be so proud of george w. bush's legacy when it comes to africa. what he did with the millennial challenge account, preparations we saved millions of lives america did and it really changed the legacy of america within africa on some level. so that is something that any republican, any democrat should support. and so, that's how i would -- i -- far prefer foreign aid to be going and being used to save lives than for war frankly. >> gene's new piece is online now for the "washington post," does a great job shining an important light on this issue that doesn't get enough attention. gene, thank you so much. always great to see you. >> good to see you, willie. up next, emmy award and pulitzer prize winning journalist is our guest, rich espizito. "morning joe" is coming right back.

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a new book is giving us an inside look at the life of a legendary journalist called "jimmy breslin "the man who told the truth. new york based newspaper and a huge character in the book's author, emmy award and pulitzer prize winning journalist richard espi-sito. great to see you. >> good morning. >> we have a visceral reaction about jimmy breslin. why did you want to sit down and investigate his life, tell the story of jimmy br-eslin, why is he so important? >> that was a time when people got their news from newspaper. he had 3 million readers. and what he did was he covered the biggest events of our time. and the legacy of him is what we do. telling the facts, telling the truth. and that's why i wanted people to read about him. >> so who was the big question

that you filled the book with it, but the cliff's note version of who was jimmy breslin. >> he was so many different things. he used to say he had 67 different characters. underneath it all, there was an insecure writer, a guy who grew up in a broken home in queens and who really connected with the working people who read his newspapers. >> we're lucky to have mike barnicle with us today. mike, jimmy was a friend of yours. let you take it away here. talk about your friend and then take it to rich. >> you know, rich, as you know, 61 years ago this week jimmy breslin introduced the world really, not just the readers in the united states, introduced the world to a man named clifton paulard, a grave digger at arlington national cemetery, making $3 an hour. and he dug the grave for president kennedy's casket, 61 years ago this week. and it seems to me that the

jimmy breslin you have outlined so prolifically and so well in this biography, he was always a guy who recognized the vulnerable because he was so vulnerable at a certain level. could you speak to his vulnerabilities, based upon what you were just talking about, the way he was raised, how he was raised. kind of a lonely kid with a determined mind to write. >> you know, mike, that gets to the core of him as your other friend pete ham ill said, he acted like a tough guy, but inside there was a broken little boy. and that broken little boy really connected to the vulnerable. and was able to tell the stories of people like clifton paulard, dug the hole that put america's hope in that ground. he really told the story in a way that you could understand. and that came from deep inside this little boy inside. >> i want to read a little bit of that. it's called "the grave digger"

published 1963, the day after jfk was burr rid talking about the grave digger at arlington national cemetery, clifton paulard. paulard is 42 a slim man with a mustache born in pittsburgh and served as a private in the 352nd engineers battalion in world war ii. one of the last to serve, john fitzgerald kennedy the 35th president of the country, a workman who earns $3.01 an hour and said it was an honor to dig the grave. clifton pollard wasn't at the funeral. he was over bind the hill digging whys in another section of the cemetery. he didn't know who the graves were for. he was just digging them. then vering them with boards. i tried to go over to see the why, he said, but it was so crowded a soldier told me i couldn't get through. i just stayed here and worked, sir. i'll get over there later, a little bit, just sort of look around and see how it is. you know, like i told you, it's

an honor. that's jimmy breslin reporting three days after the assassination of john f. kennedy. >> one of the most famous columns ever written. you know, i spent some time in the new york daily news. i knew the legends, the end of that era when i was there in the early 2000s. talk to us about what america is missing, the decline of local newspapers. we obviously had some great national papers still, but just that spirit that carried the day. and that's bad for us all and bad for democracy. >> it could be bad for democracy. we have some good local outlets. gothamist, new york the city. they don't capture the big audience. now we ride the sub waste and look at our iphones, playing wordle, i'm playing the mini cross word, that's all i can do. then the pages were snapping and people were reading. and this was a voice that connected with people. we all had something to talk about that we had in common.

in the city we lived in, whether it was chicago, bre-slin in new york, herb cane in san francisco. they were there for the people in the town where they wrote. and that is right now missing. and it is something i think will come back because, you know, it's a different medium. but the need remains. >> what is different about what jimmy bresl ishs n had and what he reported and the trust the public had anymore. than today, the media is held in low regard and it's a moment of lack of trust in media. >> it's really good way to look at him because, like i was talking to a detective a couple weeks ago. he said, you never knew whether he was going to write something good or bad about you, but you always wanted to read it. he was able to go across that divide, those silos we live in. and get people who might not agree with him to read his

perspective on what the truth was. and they knew it might not be their perspective, but that's a gift. and that is different from what we have right now. someone who people are willing to read that they might completely disagree with. that's a wonderful tling. >> truly a guy who told the story of the 20th century, was there at selma, when martin luther king jr. died, rfk. >> then occupy wall street, 50 years later. >> saw it all. fascinating book. if you don't know jimmy breslin, you'll get to know him and probably love him after reading this book. on sale now. rich esposito. congratulations. >> thank you. joe talks to actors jude law and nicholas holt about their new movie "the order." "morning joe" will be back in a moment. ." "morning joe" will be back in a moment ♪ (animatronic santa) ho, ho, ho!

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don't rob banks. >> go, go, go. >> six steps in that book. recruiting. training. fundraising. assassination. >> what's six? >> large scale domestic terror attacks. >> come on! >> take him down. >> get out! >> let's go! >> 3.6 million. >> what does that buy? >> buys an army. >> it's happening. war has begun. >> that was part of the trailer for the new film "the order" inspired by a dark, untold chapter of american history, the movie tells the story of a 1980s neo-nazi extremist group led by a man named robert j. matthews. along with his followers, matthews launched a violent campaign of crime to fund his plan to overthrow the u.s. government. ending in a fiery, 35-hour

standoff with fbi agencies on woodby island in washington state where matthews was ultimately killed. here is joe's recent interview with the stars of "the order" jude law and nicholas holt as well as screen writer zach baylin. >> jude and nicholas, big fan of your. when i heard i was going to be interviewing you guys for a movie, i was sure it was going to be some british thing and haza. then i see the opening scene, wait a second. >> go, go, go! >> very different than what i expected. so, why this movie? and why now? >> you know, it's very rare you get a script that has a story -- an actual story but that you never heard of. just felt like a story that needed to be told. it had a resonance to today. and yet was also sort of

shedding light on something that had happened and was a fantastic untold story. and was folded into a genre peace. we know about oklahoma city and january 6th. you have a group of young, disaffected men who want to violently overthrow the u.s. government. >> no. i was researching timothy mcveigh in the oklahoma city bombing and in the course of watching some documentaries about him, i came across this little tidbit of a group that had inspired him. and i went in. i took a trip to oklahoma city and went to the bombing memorial. >> right. >> and when you walk into the bombing memorial, like one of the first things that's there on the display is a copy of the turner diary. it's a ludicrous book that was written in the '70s by a white supremacist and it became a bit of this like totem that was passed along in white sprim cyst

supremacist circles tells the story of a fictional group that rages a race war against the u.s. government and overthrows it and they rob banks and counterfeit money to fund this revolution. >> right. >> and the plans for a lot of horrendous things are in it. and this guy, bob matthews, read it and had been a follower of the author. and decided to try and put that book into practice. >> we seek the same goals. in ten years we'll have members in the congress, the senate. that's how you make change. but progress takes time. >> that's your problem. your running out of time. and you've got nothing to show for it. >> nicholas, you played bob matthews. very charismatic leader, that was actually able toin spire these people to do things that obviously they wouldn't normally do. how hard was it for you to get into his head, play that role. >> you know, it's a difficult

place to go into the mindset of someone like that because you have to research and learn about what propelled them to that state, what propelled them to those beliefs. bob is so clear in his ideology and his devotion to this cause. so he finds these people and gives them this sense of self and purpose. and that's what i think is really interesting that zach was exploring with the script and something i don't think had it not been justing directing this film wouldn't have been a role i could have felt comfortable playing because i worked with justin before. i knew he would handle it very sensitively and trusted him to look after me doing it because it's a difficult role and horrible place to go to. >> there's this incredible line i think lies at the heart of the movie i chased mobsters. i chased clansman. you probably know the line better than i do. and it's always somebody blaming somebody else for their problems. isn't that what's at the heart of not only white supremacy and

what we're seeing here but also let's just say the toxic version of populism that we're seeing too often across the west? >> there are people who are disenfranchised and see the world changing in ways that they're uncomfortable with and are having a hard time catching up and adjusting to. i think all of that is very natural, but i think that's where you open the door to this, you know, these really insidious ideas that charismatic leaders like bob can come in and give them a direction to point that anger. and i think, yeah, that's what's happening now. i think that's what's happened throughout history. and yeah. it's very dangerous. >> it helps explain what's going on today, doesn't it? i mean, isn't that one of the important -- >> absolutely, the hope. justin has an interest and a tendency to put his characters

in other films of his, too. in that familiar environment, in their community. >> right. >> so 're looking at the person in 360 degrees and understanding what the interactions r what are they lacking? what are they looking for? it doesn't lead you have empathy for these distasteful people, but it does lead you to look at them wholly and understand what they're lacking, understand what gets them there to make these decisions. >> what do you want movie goers to go away with? >> i grew up watching movies loved the way movies would elevate g eshs nre movies. you're looking at something about people, about interaction, about a time. this film has that. and obviously it has very resonant subject matter which i think pose lots of questions and ask you to look inwards and maybe question your own actions or your own opinions.

>> thank you so much. congratulations. it's a great movie. >> thank you so much for having us. coming up, our next guest directed one of the biggest movies in the world right now. we'll talk to the film maker behind "wicked." john m. chu when "morning joe" comes back in just a minute. chu" comes back in just a minute. ♪♪ now with vitamin d for the dark days of winter. you got this. one — remember, i don't want surgery for my dupuytren's contracture. two — i want to be able to lay my hand flat. three — i want a nonsurgical recovery. ♪♪ four — i want options — nonsurgical options. and five... and if nonsurgical treatment isn't offered? ♪♪ i'll get a second opinion. let's go! take charge of your treatment. if you can't lay your hand flat, visit findahandspecialist.com to get started.

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what is that sound? >> i don't know. >> no. come on. >> who are you? and why do you seek me? >> say something. say something. say anything. >> say something. say something! >> my name is alphaba. and this is -- >> alphaba, is that you?

alphaba. >> a man. >> alphaba, i didn't know it was you. you made it. >> a clip from the block buster hit "wicked" currently in theaters. the film is now the highest grossing broadway adaptation of all time domestically surpassing $260 million box office since its release on november 22nd. and joining us now the film's director john m. chu. congratulations. >> thank you very much. >> i see why this man is smiling. i also see is there a "wicked part 2" already under way. >> yeah. we shot them at the same time. so, we're editing it now. >> oh my word. okay. >> this is order of "the rings". >> my daughter and i will have a "wicked" party. >> john, talk about how -- this is a long-time coming. >> yeah. >> everybody knew about the musical, but for you, this has

been an idea decades in the making. >> yeah. i saw "wicked" when it was in sfrarngs in the bay area. my mom took me. i remember being just blown away. this feels more cinematic than any show. this is 20 something years ago. i had no idea i would be the one they would call to go make it. i feel blessed. >> congrats on the film's success. the actual making of these films was very long, too. you did two at once. >> yes. >> talk us through, what is a production of that size and scope like? what are the challenges you had to overcome? >> when tackling oz, the land of oz, seen in wizard of oz and all these different things embedded in our culture, it was important to build oz. we built emerald city, we built munchkinland. the 9 million tulips we planted and, of course, all the cast and thousands of people as munchkins and emerald city people and then

you get cynthia erivo and jeff goldbloom, it takes every department to come together. music, add the musical element on top of that, stephen schwartz, brilliant song writer who wrote all of these. yeah, it was a lot. i'm still tired. >> i bet. >> you directed one of my favorite, favorite movies, "crazy rich asian." just such moving but it's exciting but it's visually very beautiful. but a very different kind of movie than "wicked." talk us to how that works. >> yeah. for "crazy rich asian" that was something that was very scared to make, talking about my own cultural identity crisis is like something i avoided all my movies before because i didn't want to be seen as an asian-american director. i just wanted to be seen as a director. but that was the one i got to go out there and tell my story through these other characters. and because of the reaction, because people brought out their

families and their grandparents and it really changed my view of what cinema can do when you put a movie out there, it can literally change -- the only medium in the world after one weekend, no matter what pundits say or reviewers say, the audience shows up, it changes everything and all those actors have become huge stars. for me, it changed the way i look at movies in general what i want to do. >> back to "wicked" of course such a success. one of the decisions you made for this musical is to sing -- have them sing live. >> yeah. >> don't dub it in later, record it, do it live. talk us why you decided to do that. what that choice brought to the film and obviously you had some pretty talented singers to work with. >> two greatest singers of our generation in this movie. that wasn't the plan from the very beginning. i wanted to give them outs. i didn't want to put the pressure on them. when you're mixing true acting and moments and music, you really want that to integrate as closely as possible. that music isn't just a thing you put on top of the scenes, that it is a part of the

expression, extended part of the dialogue, dialogue you can't cover. these girls were able to weave in and out. every time we did that it got better so we just kept doing that. we had a pianist live everyday with an ear wig in their ear, just like this, they would hear that. we got to hear it echo all our sets all day long. we saw grips crying, people walking to their car singing popular. so we could feel it on the set. it was special. >> just -- >> that's wonderful. >> talk about the new lens that viewers who may have seen this musical so many times on broadway get to see this through and specifically, obviously, when in a theater, the motions have to be more grand and you have to be -- making sure that everybody sees everything. it's like a bono concert. like you have -- but here with the lenses, you've said, you can get two inches from a character's face. >> yeah. >> and there's an intimacy to

"wicked" the film that you could never get on broadway. talk about that. >> that's the great thing about cinema is that one, you walk into a theater and it's black and you're with strangers and we get to take you to the best seats in the house. it's not whatever ticket you can afford. we get to that all around the world. the best things is stuff like the flying and defying gravity. we get to take you 10,000 feet in the air as she spins around and get there with her, what she's trying to express with her voice and yet at the same time, be right there with her as she says something has changed within me, something is not the same. we see it's not just a declaration of something but maybe she's conflicted about that idea that she doesn't want to change but she has to. and i think those kind of nuances, especially in this day and age when we all sort of feeling that uncomfortable feeling of what's next and we don't know what that answer is, it goes a long way for what people are feeling right now and

cinema can do that. >> talking about an uncomfortable feeling. >> yeah. >> most authors who write a mem mother talk about the uncomfortable feeling they have writing it and after it's done. you've written a memoir, "view finder" a memoir of seeing and being seen. tell us about your decision to do it, any second thoughts you may have had and what readers are going to see. >> it's really awkward to write your own book. it felt like therapy in a weird way. it was during covid. >> everyone is learning the power of that grammar. and what i wish i had that.

and i wish everyone knew that power. i try to talk about when i was 16, 17 years old, the things that were the hard part of it. i love seeing around the country and getting that feeling. >> "wicked" is in theaters now. and jon's book "viewfinder: a memoir of being and being seen" is available now. director and author, jon m. chu thank you so much and wish you the best. blatch the best. blatch

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president-elect trump will likely. >> in el paso. >> philadelphia. >> israel. >> new hampshire. israel. >> new hampshire. good morning. and welcome to a special holiday edition of "morning joe." we're on tape this christmas morning and hope you're enjoying a beautiful morning with your loved ones. here are some of our top discussions in rientd weeks. take a look. >> for nearly four decades, the economists have released issue predicting the political trends. the world ahead 2025 issue is out now, assessing what the global impact will be from donald trump's win, how democracies from around the world will respond to the widespread losses of incumbent parties. and what surprises may be in store. >> joining us now, deputy editor tom standish.

>> tom -- >> let's begin. >> thank you so much for being with us. >> great to be here again. >> i'm going to start. can i ask a general question. just about britain, right now. and the new -- we're getting to watch ahead. but we have been talking this morning about the german government falling, the french government watching last week. the biden, harris team loss. but in britain, you have a new labor party. but it's gone off to such an absolutely miserable start, based on conversations i've had with dozens of people in britain. what is the -- what's the political climate right now in britain? and the economic climate as well? >> well, the economic climate is quite gloomy. the government has promised growth, and so far, growth has

proved to be weaker than expected. this government has got four years or so, four and a half years until it has to have another election. so they've got? time to make some pretty unpopular changes. if you look around the world, incumbents have done badly everywhere. and we've seen incumbent parties chucked out like we did in america and great britain. so far, neighbor is not doing a good job at doing that. and doesn't seem to be good at doing politics, which is kind of strange. but of course, the person he's making big promises about is donald trump in the u.s. there is a sort of commonality around the world that people have voted for change. and now, they expect to get that to happen. so far, we have been disappointed.

>> let's get now to the top trends. top 10 trends to watch in 2025. number one, you just mentioned it. america's choice, which, of course, is donald trump returning to the white house. you said it could lead to geopolitical realignments? what does a second term for donald trump mean for the world? >> that's the problem. we don't exactly know. these are points three and four. we don't know what it means for geo politics, which is 3, and we don't know what it means for economics, which is 4, because he's promised all sorts of things. he's going to end the war in ukraine in a day. he seems to take a more transactional approach to alliances. and what does that mean for america's allies in europe and asia? we don't know yet. and is he serious about these tariffs? are we going to have a trade war? that would be bad for america and everyone else. these tariffs are a sales tax on american consumers. they are not a way to helping

yourself to money from china. they are literally a sales tax on be consumers. and one of the risks voters have been complaining about in 2024 is high prices and inflation. that's one of the reasons donald trump got in. he said, "i will fix all of that." you'll see your food prices go down again. he's been back-pedaling on that a little bit. >> hard to have a conversation about the future or the president without thinking about the role of a.i. that's a global issue. how do you see both tech leaders and world leaders grappling with it? >> i think there'sab interesting thing going on with a.i. right now. there's an enormous investment going into it, something like 1.5 trillion investors. and yet, we're not really seeing the demand there from companies. only 5% of companies you think would be leading the way are

using a.i. so there's this weird disparity between the enthusiasm of investors and the companies. maybe we need to wait longer. gen tech. there's a candidate for word of the year already. everybody is talking about it. you're not going to get away from people saying that word. it's like your power point presentation now. but the other thing, i think, if you look at surveys of employees, rather than companies, you get much higher numbers. so something like 80% of programmers, 75% of hr people. and 35% of people say they are using a.i. at least once a week. so a lot of them are doing it, but a lot is done in secret because a lot of them think their management won't think it's appropriate. and it will take time to justify those massive investments so i think it's a bit of a crunch year of a.i. in 2025. if we don't see that adoption

and traction by companies in a more formal way, then some of those share prices may be overvalued. >> i'm going to resist using the word "gentech" as long as i can. i'm going to try to make it through 2025 without using that word. voters went want change. that's obvious, right? the journal an government fell. every place is a mess. the deputy prime minister quit yesterday. and justin trudeau is in trouble. across the world, what do they want? and do we know -- politicians don't seem to know. do economists know what voters want? >> they want "not this." they want change. incumbents have done bad, regardless of their position. this isn't a shift towards left

or right or national greenery. it's just whoever is in charge right now, we don't like what they're doing. we want something else. and i think generally, advanced economies has been inflation, higher interest rates as a result. and therefore, cost of living prices in many countries. and people blame governments for that. and nay say, they say, you need to do something different. and that's one of the factors we've seen. there's also a loss of faith in the political process generally. but i think the main thing has been "we blame the government for the fact that things cost more and maybe different people would sort that out." so i think that is the main factor that has driven this enormous vote for change. we've seen parties return like south africa and india, with smaller numbers. so they have to go into

coalition. so that's another factor. >> you know, it's really something when you look across the west and the most stable government: italy. but it is. >> it is. the "world ahead 2025" is out now. did upon editor, tom standish, thank you for coming on the show. we appreciate it. >> our next guest is showcasing some very dedicated nonprofits, dedicated to making the world a better place. the kristof's giving prize. joining us now, "new york times" columnist, nick kristof. he covers the issues and introduced his holiday impact prize in 2019 to boost support there are those groups. nick, great to see you this morning. we love this moment every year. it's such a great idea that you

started a while back. so let's remind people exactly how this started for you, this mission and what exactly you aim to do every year? >> so, good to be with you. and we in journalism are pretty good at highlighting disasters and crises and scandals, and that's obviously important. but i think so readers or audiences are often looking not just to know about everything going wrong, but what they can do to make the world a little bit better. and perhaps especially this time of year. and so i started this -- this holiday gift guide, with the idea that people cannot just give a neck tie or scarf to family members or friends, but also make a donation to a really worthy organization, in ways that change lives. and this year, i think i found three particularly amazing organizations, the best -- highest-return investment today isn't a hedge fund. it's some of these incredible

nonprofits. so the organizations i have chosen this year, one is called the official foundation, which helps address a child birth injury, called 50ula, the most dangerous thing a woman can do in much of the world is to get pregnant. and if there is no obstetric care available, she can be left with these internal injuries, a fistula, which leaves her feeling less confident, cursed by god, degraded, and for $600, one can repair that fistula, and give this woman her life back. i've rarely seen somebody as joyous as one of these women or girls when they've had that surgery. and another is called muso health. because we lose far too many children around the world in the first few years of life. and this is an organization that started in mali and was

amazingly successful using community health workers in its first stages it reduced child mortality by 95%. and for just $22, it can expand and reach another child, a family. and this year, an incredible group called reach out and read, which affects people in the u.s. it drealtseses the problem that most low-income kids aren't read to by their parents. and it's not that the parents don't want to help their kids, but there are children's books at home, they're not in that practice. so reach out&read gives children books by the pediatrician. and the pediatrician prescribes reading to the children, encourages them to read. and turns out, it doubles the share of kids who are read to by their parents. and makes these kids better prepared for kindergarten and school and doing better

throughout life. >> all very worthy organizations. again, fistula, muso, reach out and read. they all get a $50,000 award. but hopefully that's just as people step up and donate as well. i am curious, nick. you cover stories, you travel the world. when you sit down, i'm sure, with a very long list of very worthy organizations, how do you get it to these three? >> so you it know, people always come up to me and say, i have this amazing organization that i recommend to you. and what i look for is evidence. and that can be -- look. every self evaluation history in the world has found success. so what i look for is outside evaluations, outside evidence, independent research that finds real impact. and i look for that impact at

an inexpensive price, so that one can make a difference for the kind of modest gift that people might make for the holidays. like muso health, $22 to cover one more child in that health system. $600 to get another woman a fistula surgery. or in the case of reach out and read, because they're piggy- backing on the well child visits by pediatrician. it's only $30 a year to get one more child in that program. so that's what i look for. impact and, you know, impact at a good price. >> well, good on you for all of this. i do want to mention, if you're not in a position to donate money, you can obviously donate time. nick has a recommendation there. it's called the crisis text line. provides free, 24/7, high- quality text-based mental health support through trained volunteers. and crisis text line has trained and managed 100,000 volunteers over the years and

you can be one of them there. if you'd like to donate, please visit kristof impact.org. thank you for the work you do on this and for bringing them to us this morning. coming up, joe's interview with oscar-winning actor al pacino. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we'll be right back. over 90% e. shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix doesn't protect everyone and isn't for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. tell your healthcare provider if you're pregnant or breastfeeding. increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can happen so take precautions. most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling where injected, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. ask your doctor about shingrix today. with dexcom g7, managing your diabetes just got easier. so, what's your glucose number right now? good thing you don't need to fingerstick. how's all that food affect your glucose?

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there's a plane waiting to take us to miami in an hour. don't make a big thing about it. i know it was you, frito. you broke my heart. you broke my heart. >> that is one of the most iconic scenes, arguably in movie history, featuring al pacino, in "the godfather 2." last week, joe had the chance to sit down with the legendary academy award-winning actor, who recently released his memoir, entitled" sonny boy ," which was his childhood nickname. pacino and joe reflected on his incredible journey, from an apartment super in manhattan, to playing one of the greatest takes ever, michael corleone, under the direction of francis ford copola. take a look. >> it's a great honor. >> it's a great honor to be here. >> such an honor.

>> thank you, joe. >> you have had a lot of odd jobs. and reading this book, i found out, i lived in an apartment on 68th west. >> i can't believe it. >> i walk in, and she said, you know, pacino was a super here. he may have been one of the worst ever -- and i'm like, whatever. and i'm reading the book. you're a super at this apartment complex? >> i was like a young 21, 22. and i had -- someone took a photo of me. you know, actors get photos, 8- by-10s. and it was one of these posed photos. and i put it on the door, with band aids to keep it on at this time door, and i put "super" underneath the picture. >> but you went through tough times. martin sheen, who is just a wonderful, beautiful man. that comes through in your book. you talk about marty sheen.

>> he came into my class, and i had never seen acting that great. it was great be acting. i was enamored with him. and he and i -- there was a place called "the living theater." it was on 14th street and sixth avenue. and we were working for them at the theater, putting down the -- you know, you have to set up the stage before the actors start doing it at 8:00. so we would lay the rugs and stuff. i remember being in the back with marty, and we're all dirtied up, because we used to clean the toilets and stuff like that. we're sitting in the back of the theater, looking at the play. like, god, look at that. that's amazing. >> so you had -- you had success in the theater? >> yeah. >> and then your agent says to you, "i need you to fly out to the west coast, see francis ford

copola. >> francis seen me in the play. hidone a couple and i also won a tony award. >> right. >> so i was a little bit in the conversation. >> right. >> so yeah. obviously, he saw the play. and he asked me to come out to san francisco, through the agent. and i thought, well, i don't want to go there. i was afraid of planes. >> you didn't want to fly. >> so my manager says, you're going out with me. i'll go out with you. so i went there. i got to know francis. so he knew me a little before he called me for "godfather." >> and he believed in you, even though nobody else did. >> yeah. >> and you felt it. >> he called me in my house a year later. this is low this thing works, you know? what we do. i mean, it works that way. and he said, hi, al. they gave me "the godfather. i'm going to direct the godfather."

and i knew this was a great big book. everybody read it. it was one of those. so it was going to be a movie, wow. and then he said -- i said, wow, that's great, francis. he said, "yeah, and i want you to play the role." i thought, he's gone too far. practically humored him, until i thought of paramount pictures. and paramount pictures, i thought, hires him -- they're smart. >> right. >> they know how good he is. they know how much -- he's a genius. so i thought, well, they're smart, and he wants me. and that's not so smart. i'm just -- anyway. i said -- called my grandmother up. she was the only one left of my family. and i said, "granny, you remember the godfather book"

"yeah, i heard of it" and i said, no. but they want me to be in it. play michael. she calls me back in 15 minutes. oh, sonny, granddaddy was born there. corleone. my grandfather was born in corleone sicily. and you had to think about it. >> i thought, this is crazy. this is the fates or whatever. >> but you had so many challenges in that role. they didn't want -- the execs didn't want you. it was very tough. >> yeah am. >> you said the actors are really -- everything you write is vivid. copola calls you. and he's eating dinner with his family. and you're forced to do what? to stand there by the table, right? >> yeah. and i'm standing there. and they're vivid to me. i'm standing at the table. and i know the family there.

>> family is all sitting down eating. >> so i'm standing there, and francis is eating. and he is just like this, saying, you know -- you know how much i feel about you. and how much i've stood up for you and wanted you. and i am standing there, saying i know what's coming. and he's like, you're not cutting it, man. you're just not doing it. i thought, "what am i not doing? i'm not doing anything "to myself. he said, well, you're not -- go look at it. it's at paramount. go look at it. >> go in peace, and may the lord be with you. amen. >> and i said, nice standing with you. i left. enjoy your day. i'll just go out and kill myself. it's okay. so i went to the paramount

thing, i start looking at the rushes. and i thought, wow, this is not so bad. i'm looking at myself. because i had planned it. >> right. it's planned. as an artist. >> yes. >> you're starting, being understated with michael, so it has the build. >> exactly right. >> and they gave you the lousy scene. >> johnny is my father's god son. >> i wanted to just blend. because my whole idea of the part was that it would, you know, finally show itself. and at the end of this film, this guy becomes sort of an enigma. and that was all my thoughts. i think francis felt the same way, too. but i couldn't either the amount of experience

i had. i don't know what kept me from saying this, but when i saw the footage, i thought, i guess -- >> you felt good. >> i felt, it's not very good, so to speak, whatever that means, "good." and i went back to him. and i couldn't tell him that this is all a plan, francis. i couldn't articulate it. i just said, i see what you mean. i see what you mean. i know what you're talking about, meanwhile. i went in the church. empty church. sit there in a pew, just thinking, talking to god. and i said, well -- so i went in, next thing i know, they're doing the scene in the restaurant, where michael shoots. and i was prepared for that. that was sort of cool, i could do that stuff. you know? >> yeah. >> i mean, that was the pivot, a pivot for me. and the scene is very clear. you can understand what is going on. and the bill is good. and i went in there, and i did it.

i don't -- the story was that it wasn't supposed to be shot that day. and they were looking to fire me. >> right. >> and they moved it up. and i did the scene. and it came off. and those two guys are such great guys, sterling hayden, and they were so good to me. and such good actors. [ gunshot ] >> they knew something was going on. >> that's what you said about all the actors in "the god father." they knew you were in trouble and put their arms around you. >> all of them. >> that is so awesome. >> i'll never forget it. >> be of course, everybody looks back. and of course goes, "the godfather" it was going to be a good hit. but actually, while it was going on, you said, as an

actor, you don't really know. everybody had doubts, because it's really -- you do your parts, you leave, you start something else, and then it's what they do with the editing, what the director does. but you said there was one moment, where you said, you know what? we may have a shot. and it's when you see francis ford coppola weeping in a cemetery. >> it's burying the godfather, that scene, where everybody is weeping, coming out. and the day is over. and i'm happy because i can go have a drink. i had no lines that day, so i felt good. so i'm walking gingerly to my camper. and there i see sitting there in the distance, francis coppola, on a tombstone. and he's bawling. >> right. >> he's heaving. i mean, he's just -- i said, what's the matter, francis? and he looks up, with tears in

his eyes, and he says, they won't give me another setup. they won't give me another setup. meaning -- another shot. >> he cared about it that much. >> and i thought, this guy -- he cares. my god. look at him. and i don't know what to say. i just said, uh-oh. i think he's going to -- he's onto something. if he carries this much passion for that thing. that's a good sign. >> yeah. >> so then i started thinking, maybe this is a good movie or something. >> and coming up next, we'll have more from joe's sit down with al pacino, where they talk about his struggles with fame and addiction. d addiction. wax figure of myself. oh! right in the temporal lobe! beat it, punks! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ with dexcom g7, managing your diabetes just got easier.

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do not allow the politics to create these divisions. >> there's also a new year and hay chance to begin again. and i always look forward to that. forward to that. that's a team, gentlemen. either we heal now, as a team or we will die, as individuals.

that's football, guys. that's all it is. now, what are you going to do? >> that was a scene featuring al pacino as a football coach in "any given sunday." i recently sat down with the legendary actor, who is out with a new memoir titled" sonny boy." and we talked about his struggle to deal with his newfound fame, after the success of "the godfather." >> a lot of people don't want to talk about this. but how suffocating fame was for you. you said, first time, you're on the corner, there's this redhead. >> you see a redhead. and you say hi. and she says, hi, michael.

>> and thought uh-oh, world is over. >> you talked about the depression that came with that. the anxiety. and you started drinking. >> it was very strange. i was shot out of a cannon, that's how it felt like. and that's how i dealt with it. probably i didn't like the godfather much because it made me look at my life. i didn't know how to take advantage of or recognize what was going on. you know, we usually earn friendships because we earn them. people -- we get -- oh, i like him, i like her, we enjoy each other's company. and because we do things, which are part of our soul, part of our humanity. and that's how you exchange -- that's how you make friends. >> right. >> i didn't have to do that. all of a sudden, i just stand there, and everything came to me. now, that's a dream, right? that's like, i wish i had that. sometimes when you're driving around, i wish everybody would

-- traffic would just clear up and let me through. >> right. >> and you have that feeling, you don't know how to handle it. i didn't know how. i wasn't prepared for it. >> so you sort of self- medicated. >> yeah. >> with drinking. >> then i start doing other films and start working. because working has always been my life boat. that's my life raft, working. i think that is what has kept me alive. and that keeps -- let's knock wood. keep going. >> i'm a baptist, but i'll cross myself. exactly. there's this great scene. because there's a madness after the godfather and the craziness. everybody is around. >> yeah. >> hollywood finally decides, they're going to give you what you should have gotten 20 years earlier, an academy award. and you write about how there wasn't the afterglow. you weren't like pumping your

fists. there was actually a really zen moment on the plane. can you tell everybody about that? >> well, there was before i won it, and then after i won it. there's a good story about serpico being nominated and then getting so high and drunk that i wouldn't know how to get on the stage. >> again -- so diane keaton, jeff bridges, you're there. and you're so high, and so drunk that by the time, you're like, i hope i don't win this. >> i knew -- i went there, knew i wouldn't win. charlie went with me. bregman produced it. i can let these guys down. i'm going to go in there with the thing i sat with diane. we were very close. we sat there. i was very drunk. but i sat there, and looked sort of impassive, kind of. but at the same time, i'm thinking, well, we're watching this, and i'm telling her

little jokes, you know? you tell little jokes, she's laughing. and i'm telling the jokes. and as i'm telling them, i'm popping valium. and then i turn to jeff bridges, the great actor, jeff bridges, sitting right next to me. he didn't know me or he knew me, i don't know what it was. he was looking at me. he might have seen me take all of these pills, i don't know what it was. but he was indifferent. and i said to him, "look, i guess they're not going to get to the best actor award." and he said" what do you mean?" and i said, "because it's an hour gone by. no best actor thing." and he says to me "this is three hours." my god. i'm 23409 going to make it. i know it. i'm not going to make it. so i went into some spasm. i said "thank you." and i sat there with diane and

said," this is three hours long." and that's what my whole feeling was, the fear, mixed with the "i don't belong here" kind of feeling, i don't know what it was, what made me like that. but when jack lemmon won. >> you were like, yeah. >> i was like, this guy is such a great guy. look how happy he is, for his fellow actor. i just -- i couldn't make it up on that stage. i didn't even have a speech. >> but you got up for "scent of a woman." and after you won, you were again, very zen about it? you, the oscar, on a plane, and you were fine, right? >> i -- braveman called me back. i was doing "carlitos way." so i had to get back on the set. i didn't even get a chance to enjoy that evening or live it, because i had to get on a [ bleep ] plane and go back to

new york to do this thing that i sat on this big plane. by myself. my girlfriend was staying here in california and i was by myself, with my oscar. >> right. >> and i held my oscar. and i remember the time, when i was on the subway train, when i got into the actors studio. i must have been 22, 23, and i look the on the mirror, the reflection, i remember standing there, thinking "i'm an actor." >> uh-huh. >> i'm an actor now. i'm in the actors studio. i'm an actor. and i said it with this thing. "i got an oscar. wow." it felt good. it's like for two weeks, people just come up and go, hey, great. and then you go yeah, and then it's gone. >> it's interesting. you win, but you're a working

actor. it's your life raft. each going into servico, you realized, you had a girlfriend -- >> yeah. ion and at that stage, you realized, am i'm just not going to be able to commit to anybody and do what i do. >> that's right. i saw that. i saw it, like, really getting in the way. and i was young at the time i did servico. i was really -- i didn't even know where i was. i was drinking, of course. but i was also having a good time, too. but that was my life. it was just, you know, coming, going, who cares? i don't know. i have my booze. that's all i know. i'm taken care of. but it was -- it was -- it was a pleasant time for me for a while. >> for a while? and -- but you had your booze, and then you didn't. said, hey, didn't work with you. but -- >> yeah.

>> -- talk about acting. >> i was getting there. i was on my way to something that was -- brings unhappiness and tragedy sometimes. i remember just going -- and i had a hard time. i have to say, it difficult to do "godfather 2" the difficult things i had to do. >> no way you can forgive me, with this sicilian thing. >> he kills his own brother, and he goes through so much. time, i was -- once again growing up, i was alone. and traveling all over with the god father, different places we went through. >> mike, i almost died myself. >> in my home!

my wife sleeps. where my children play with their toys. >> and i think it weighed on me. and i came out of that. and "dog day afternoon." that was wild." >> nobody move. >> get away from those alarms. >> and i don't know. it just sort up on me. >> i knew what i was doing. and doing plays. whatever. i knew what i was doing. but handling a life at that time. but with what i was imbibing in.

gina, gina, gina!

the face. >> hello, misty shores. >> oh, gina. i have a meeting with a very handsome cowboy man. >> he's waiting for you in the bar. >> well, since i just finished watching. film festival. i think i know who you are. put it there. >> it's my pleasure. mr. schwartz. and thank you for taking an interest. >> schwarz, not schwartz. >> al pacino in a late career role is a classic movie agent, from clinton tarrantino. "sonny boy" is a memoir. and here in a legendary conversation with a legendary actor we get the story of some of his past financial struggles and his tumultuous upbringing in the bronx. >> i have to say, i had never heard, until this book came out

about how you were fleeced -- >> fleeced? >> of your money. >> well yeah. all my money. >> $50 million. >> a fool and his money are soon parted. >> you don't know your father is an accountant? how did that happen? >> i don't know. i just didn't think about money. some people don't. i mean, you think about it, of course. especially, you know, when you have kids. then it comes into play. i think -- yeah. my thing with money. and then i find out, that it's gone. all of it is gone. >> i have about three different places i live. >> $400,000 landscaping, you know, for a house you said, you never went to. >> when i was in l.a., i never went there, of course. >> right, right. >> but you see. i didn't see things. and unfortunately, i still don't. i have to be aware of those

things. and it was a big thing. and my accountant went away for several years. prison. >> couple of things stood out if me. one really vivid storytelling. right? you could tell you grew up around people that told stories. yes. and second thing. you thought of this like really big character. huge character. scarface, everything else. but there's a humility here. there's a humility through the whole -- there are no "how i won the war" stories in here. there's a real humidity. >> that's good to hear. >> and a gratitude, right? >> that's good to hear. >> is that where? your grandparents? your mom? >> everything is luck. well, the environment i grew up in. that was certainly from my grandfather, i know that. but my mom, too. she was -- she was that way. i guess i was the show off in the apartment. i remember coming in, every

time i came in the apartment, i would do this whole thing with death, and just fall down. they got so used to it. i fell, i was swinging and fell right on my head. >> they're like, he's going to miss. >> i had this concussion, man. a bad one. i think it affected my whole life. >> in a very positive way. >> it would have to. and i thought, why is my brain in a fog? i had covid three times. and they say it fogs up in covid. >> and you almost died from covid? i tell you, you almost died, you sound skeptical. >> i'm not so sure. there i was. i'm talking to the guy who is giving me i.v. so he's doing that. i'm looking at him, trying to remember his name. gone. so it was gone. and i thought, i couldn't think anything. i didn't think anything. and i open my eyes, and there

were five or six paramedics in my living room. and there were two doctors, covered from head to foot with this stuff, like they were on another planet. >> right. >> ambulance -- because they told mike, my assistant, they told him that my pulse stopped. now, that's a tough thing to hear. you know, you get a little panicked from that. >> uh-huh. >> but i don't know. how could all of those people have gathered there, but ready to take me somewhere? it had to take more than 30 seconds. it had to take four or five minutes, tops, right? i couldn't withstand that if i was dead, right? my brain dead. so i -- that's how i -- that's the after-effect, i kept thinking about, did i really die? to be or not to be? >> exactly. i wanted to read the end of the book here. it's beautiful. you said "this life is a dream"

as shakespeare said,. >> yeah. >> the saddest thing about dying is losing your memories. memories are like wings. they keep you flying like a bird on the wind. if i'm lucky enough, if i get to heaven, perhaps, i'll get to reunite with my mother there, and all i want is a chance to walk up to her, look in her eyes and simply say, "hey, ma, look what happened to me." >> oh, gee. that's great. what a reader. you are a born actor. >> no, no, no. what a write. talk about that. look what happened to me. a kid from the bronx that was poor, hungry, you went through the tragedy of losing a mom, having an absent dad. >> well, what i had, though, is i had a connection to the street with my friends. i think that's what saved my

life. i really loved my friends. unfortunately, they all went the way of the needle. but i loved them. and it's -- it was a real -- i always felt this close, like to tom sawyer. it has that sort of reflection there. we were adventurous. we were street people, but we were together, and we lived in this world, where we were, from time to time, threatened and had to go out. there were times we were together, it helped, you know? >> yeah. >> but just living through all the adventures we had. >> you said the one thing that you had, your mother, grandparents that cared for you, love for you. even grandparents that you didn't even remember until later on, were there for you, helping you through it, right? >> that's right. i had family. and that's what it is. it's family. >> well, i mean, that -- that's

what this is about. >> yeah. >> i -- i think i know you on the screen. >> yeah. >> love you, have read about -- >> yeah. >> we really learn so much about you. and i'm so -- so grateful. >> i really learned about you. you're a really good interviewer. [ laughter ] but you're a hell of a lot. you do a lot of other things, too. >> the storytelling is amazing. >> thank you so much. >> that's it for us this hour of "morning joe." we hope you have a merry christmas and happy hanukkah. the news continues after this short break, right here on ms nbc. thanks for watching. ms nbc. thanks for watching.