rise. so doing this together every night, it is a gift. so however you plan to celebrate this holiday season, i hope it is filled with love, laughter and connection. and know that it is filled with gratitude from me to you. have a merry christmas, a happy new year and buckle up, baby. because we will see you all in 2025. and on that very positive note, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks at nbc news, one last time, thanks for staying up late. have a fantastic holiday. . good morning and welcome to a holiday edition of "morning

joe." i want to bring this our bringing the best discussions of the past few weeks. we will begin with a recent call for axioms, titles, the great upheaval. which looks at how a.i. is among the many forces generating major change in government and beyond. >> let's bring in the co-author of that piece, cofounder and ceo of axioms, jim. msnbc contributor mike barnacle also joins us. >> there he is. >> he looks good. >> yeah. >> okay. thanks for showing up. >> jim, this a.i. thing scares me. >> it scares all of us. >> it scares me. >> it's an austin powers line. >> this a.i. thing scares me, man. it seems like we don't have and i just ration that is going to be actually bringing the rains in on the development of it. what are your concerns and what are you reporting this morning?

>> i think it goes beyond a.i. a.i. sits at the center of it. if you think most viewers probably feel pretty disoriented, feel like there's a lot of change, there actually is because you simultaneously have massive change happening and how we get information on how we govern ourselves, businesses, and then geopolitical relationships. very rarely in history does four lights shift simultaneously. can i do think you put your finger on it. i think a.i. sits at the center of a lot of this. given that almost every business is thinking about how to apply this. your biggest technology companies, some of which are the size of nationstates, are investing, collectively, hundreds of billions of dollars to will it into existence. and then you look at trump and the relationship with elon musk. they want this government, and they want a.i., to be an accelerant of these technologies. which will it's not just chat gpt, it will affect how you create data. that's why you see these data

centers opening and a lot of cities. and energy. they require and eat an astronomical amount of energy. see you need to produce more of it domestically, which will reorient the entire domestic energy system that we have today . so that's huge. and i think that people that are at the table often stand to benefit from it. like elon musk has big pieces of this. he has his own a.i. company that he's raising money for and helping to fund. when you are the president and you have mark, was a huge portfolio, these are really smart people who understand the technology. so i think they are gleefully, and confidently, feeling like let's use this moment to make government an accelerant of all of this. and that's just a big shift from the biden administration. >> yeah. jim, your piece is called "the great upheaval." this one question is part of what's happening. really, really fast.

and as you said, people like elon musk and others want to use government to accelerate the pace of innovation and development. elon musk clearly, people said why did he come out so early and endorsed donald trump? he saw a winner in donald trump. he was right about that. he wanted to get on board early. reports say he has doubled his wealth since election day and they go even further. how influential do you expect him to be? not just the question to a.i. but more broadly in the administration? >> astronomically influential. i don't think you can put words to it. i can't think of a civilian who has had, in history, more impact over at least an incoming administration and the transition of the presidency. and what he tells trump privately as he believes there could be more business change, more cultural change, and more governance change than at any point since the founding of the country. and obviously he's prone to grandiosity but he has been right on a lot of these technologies and a lot of the areas where the country is going.

and i do think, for people who fear it, joe, you say it worries you. i do think that taking a wrecking ball to how we have been doing business in washington, there is a real eloquence and logic to it in that you are going to have to change very fast to keep up with these technologies and most of our government agencies are so antiquated, not necessarily set up for this next era. so if you get it right and apply technology that you position us to hopefully prevail against china. and that's the reason they are not going to put the brakes on a.i. because every moment they think about putting the brakes on a.i. you are going to have somebody whispering in your ear, do you really want to give the chinese an advantage on a technology where we have a decisive head start? it's the reason that biden didn't want to regulate it. when you hear that and see it, and you worry about it, you want to be the person to put the genie back in the bottle when we are the ones that created the genie. >> that's always the argument. and you are right. really? you're going to give china the

advantage here? and i will say also, we do have a bureaucracy across washington, d.c. that is antiquated. we have reports that, you know, the pentagon has computers from the 1980s. it's just absolutely horrid. if we can update those, fantastic. but mike, you look at the great upheaval. we still haven't come to terms with what's been happening over the last 30 or 40 years and why there is such great unrest in middle america where there is such great unrest in the upper midwest. we had an industrial age that was hollowed out by globalization and the tech revolution. we became more productive with less workers. now we have the next revolution with a.i. and that will supersize that crisis. we are going to be a more productive economy that's going to require even less workers, that's going to put more people

out of work. it's going to put or people on the sidelines. it is going to create social unrest. it's going to create cultural unrest. it is going to create more economic decay in the heartland. and when you have a government of billionaires that we are going to be having, i don't see a lot of people that have been nominated thus far that are going to be worried about the long-term impact of that. >> you know, joe, what you just said is the icing on the cake of an extraordinarily past 40 minutes of discussion about this country. and it appears today, right now , we are talking about the basic function of government going forward. is it going to change? the function of american government. is it going to change? chris ray decided to just quit his job because he was

disturbed about the reputation and morale of the fbi being dragged through the mud once again. there were three intelligence positions up for grabs. the director of national intelligence, the head of the department of defense and the head of the fbi. obviously. those three jobs up for nominations are critical to the protection and defense of the united states of america. and the nominees are a joke. and very are about to be nominated. it appears that the republican party on the senate side will go along with the nominees to further damage the function of government. you would be surprised, we would all be surprised if the number of americans in this country, who depend on the government, they don't think they depend on the government, but they do. a social security check, a tax refund. government functioning, obeying the law, moving the law forward, moving the country forward.

all of that now, listening to last 40 minutes of this discussion, is on the table. which we are we going to go? which way are we going to go? i'm waiting for the answers. >> we all are. jim, final question to you and i will ask you just based on your reporting what you're hearing on the hill, what you are hearing from people around washington, d.c.. we have asked david wrote his thought. when we are looking at some of the appointees, whether there is an effort to intimidate or a clear hope of retribution. and david talking about people inside of the fbi, inside of the justice department. understanding the costs of following an illegal order that ultimately lands them in hot water. what are you hearing around the hill? what are you hearing around watching d.c.? do they believe that this president, and those around

him, are trying to intimidate critics into silence? or are they going to be seeking retribution from day one? >> i mean, i wouldn't assume that they won't seek retribution. and i wouldn't assume that they wouldn't stretch it to areas that would get into gray areas were illegal areas. i'm not saying that they will. but you have to take them at their word. take them at their writing a lot of these folks has said that's what they want to do. i think it really depends on how president trump feels his presidency is going and who he is agitated with at any given moment. i think the biggest stories the when you put your finger on. you were saying you think there are six, seven or eight senators at the end that will probably do the right thing and my oppose some of these nominees. i'm not so certain of that, joe. i think you look at what happened with senator ernest in iowa. here's somebody who is dead opposed to that nominee, to that nomination. on a deeply, deeply philosophical ground. what happens?

you get it pounded out of you on x and then you have these conservative groups running ads back home, calling people who are close to you, having other senators come in and pressure you. it takes a very, very strong, virtuous person to say, you know what? i'm going to withstand all of that and put my political career at risk to oppose the president of the united states, who happens to be of my party. i would not be confident that any of these nominees are going down. they might pick you might be right. but i'm watching with these numbers are saying after they go through this pressure campaign and that's what's different from when you were in congress. there just weren't that many ways to pressure you with that level of intimidation. >> exactly pick >> and it's a very, very, very successful. >> as i said to a british journalists that was asking me this very question yesterday, when it comes to susan collins it is just like premier league football. it's the hope that kills you. ask he is cofounder jim, thank

you so much. coming up, we will speak with former white house coronavirus coordinator dr. deborah burks for her take on donald trump's controversial pics to lead the country's top health agencies and also about the global health program she once led that has saved tens of millions of lives, but which is now in danger of losing funding took an important conversation. morning joe will be right back. replaces fingersticks, lowers a1c, and it's covered by medicare. not managing your diabetes really affects your health for the future. the older you get, the more complications you're gonna see. i knew i couldn't ignore my diabetes anymore because it was causing my eyesight to go bad. for my patients, getting on dexcom g7 is the biggest eye opener they've ever had. i couldn't believe how easy it was. this small wearable sends my glucose numbers right to my phone or my receiver. with just a glance

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together we honor the spirit of resilience. in extraordinary strength of people, families, communities affected by hiv and aids. including nearly 40 million people living with hiv around the world, 40 million. we send a clear message to the nation and to the world that we stand united in the fight against this epidemic. >> that was president biden yesterday marking world aids

day. to honor those that have lost their lives to the disease and to highlight the ongoing global fight to end it. the united states is leading the charge with u.s. president emergency plan. reporting yesterday that the program is responsible for saving 26 million lives and enabling nearly 8 million babies to be born hiv free. joining us now, -- with the george w. bush institute, dr. deborah burke. she served as white house coronavirus coordinator and as the u.s. global aids coordinator where she oversaw it. it's great to have you back on the show. is it possible to put into words the reach, the magnitude of what they have been able to accomplish and what would happen

, what it would mean if it lost its funding? >> thank you. it's great to be with you and it's great for you to highlight this program because i think there's a lot of lessons in this program of how we can do a job better. really, because when it was originally launched by president bush it is was focused on doing business differently, more effectively, more efficiently. i think it represented the best of what america does. we see something, we do something. we saw the crisis, we acted. we didn't just talk about it. and we have a lot of crises in the world now and we are talking about them but we really need to act. that's in our country and overseas. pepfar was successful because from the very beginning it brought democrats and republicans together, united in an american response. and i think that's why it's been successful for 20 years. he sees great results. it's an extraordinary program

but very results oriented. >> some might say, okay, it's done such great work. and the work is done. can you explain the impact if it's just all of a sudden stopped doing the work that it does? >> i think you highlighted almost 8 million babies born hiv free. we've been working now to keep those babies, that are now 20, 21, 22, hiv free. and so you have to constantly adjust your program based on the results and based on the needs and the gaps. and that was what pepfar is able to do . and a very flat budget since 2009. we've gone from less than 4 million people in treatment to over 21 million. almost 21 million people in treatment in a flat budget. that shows you how you can build efficiencies. i know so many people they say, well, we need more money to do more. no, you need to focus your

program and use data to make it more effective. and that's what pepfar shows us. and we think that can be brought back domestically. yes, it's a successful global program. it is really decreasing the incidence. we will need less money in the future but it needs to remain focused. and those very lessons can be brought back to our big chronic disease crises. because everybody said we could change the course of the hiv pandemic without a vaccine. we did. and we can do that now domestically in the united states for many of our chronic diseases. >> i want to ask you about something else. dr. scott, the former fda commissioner during trump's first term is raising alarms about the nomination of robert f kennedy jr. as hhs secretary. here's what he said in an interview on friday. take a listen. >> i'm not so sure that people really understand how kennedy's intentions are going to translate into policy and how

serious he is. i think of rfk follows through on his intentions, and i believe he will, it will cost lives in this country. you will see measles, mumps and rubella vaccination rates go down. if we lose another 5%, which could happen in the next year or two, we would see large measles outbreak. for every case that it occurs in children there will be one death. and we are not good in this country at diagnosing and treating measles. >> dr. burke, what you make of his critique, his concerns, and do you have similar concerns? >> i'm very data-driven. i like to see the data and really see how people handle that data. and people can change their minds with data. i have seen all over the world. all the presidents, prime ministers that i've worked with, and the ones that i have worked with in this country. data speaks if you present it in a way that people can understand it. and i think what scott and the rest of us should be doing right now is seeing what rfk

brings to his hearing and what data he speaks to because he has artie said he has changed on his viewpoint about the importance of vaccines. but to me, his willingness to focus on chronic disease and say we haven't been successful, we have been successful in preventing disease progression. that's what we did in africa with hiv/aids. he prevented disease progression. and we need to do that now in the united states. i'm committed to that. starting programs now in rural america because the rural america data is terrible. and we just excepted it. like we were accepting hiv deaths in africa. it's unacceptable and we need to change that. i'm committed to that. i'm hoping to see that the trump administration and robert kennedy is committed to changing our pandemics that we are facing of chronic diseases. >> dr. deborah brooks, thank you very much. good to see you once again. back on morning joe. we appreciate it.

still ahead, one of our next guest says that president biden's decision to pardon his son, hunter, is splitting the anti-trump resistance. we will dig into that new piece next. . carl: believe me, when it comes to investing, you'll love carl's way. take a left here please. driver: but there's a... carl's way is the best way. client: is it? at schwab, how i choose to invest is up to me. driver: exactly! i can invest and trade on my own... client: yes, and let them manage some investments for me too.

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made by vets and delivered right to your door precisely portioned for your dog's needs. it's an idea whose time has come. ♪♪ your latest article is entitled, "president biden's hunter parton splits the anti- trump resistance. " in it he wrote, merrick garland had allowed a probe of the trump russia inquiry to continue. had appointed a special counsel to investigate biden's handling of classified documents after leaving the vice presidency. had kept on david weiss, a trump appointee, and made him a special counsel to avoid any appearance that the democrats were trying to impede the hunter biden investigations. none of this was very compelling to voters who heard

trump accused the biden doj of trying to destroy him. you continue. that was enormously depressing for democrats and anti-trump conservatives. some of them hope that biden would leave office on the high ground, making and abraham's sacrifice of his son, making any trump revenge moves or mass pardons look cheap by comparison. well, he didn't. he didn't, dave. i wish he hadn't said that he would never pardon him or will not pardon him. but having said that, when you look at the statement they put out about exactly why they did what they did, you can see the sense of it. i can't put myself in his shoes. your thoughts? >> yeah. that's where a lot of democrats are safely landing. he said he wasn't going to do this if he was going to do it. the rationale you heard from people closer to biden is that

letting his son go through this agony of these court cases, the humiliation that you went through the last four years, will that should be punishment enough. i think that's where democrats might end up. and mike was talking a little bit about this before. all of this is in the context of an election conducted in a country that assumes most politicians are pretty corrupt and doing favors for each other . that are fine with a lot of the economic connections, the financial gains that members of the trump transition team, the incoming cabinet, the gains they could make from the administration because they assume a lot of politicians are doing that already. i go back to the campaign to stop members of congress from trading stock. that all started by peter, steve bannon was a proponent of it. i'm not saying it's illegitimate. but the impetus for that was, we need to get this political class out of washington. we need to get people out of their comfy jobs in the state, in the deep state. you can't trust any of them. if you just keep lowering the

level of trust people have a politicians you can get away with more. and when it comes to biden, yeah, you can split this coalition of people who say that they are supporting biden and then harris just to prove that rule of law still matters. that's not how people feel anymore. it was decided in the election. >> i also think that no matter what you think of this pardon, the coverage of this is as if, i mean, you look at what has happened on the trump side. especially if you have parallel pardons that trump has done himself. it seems so hysterically imbalanced. if you read how we are covering this and look at what's happening on the other side it is, again, completely out of step with reality.

>> and dave, that's something that you're hearing. i know that you are not a media critic but you have heard this complaint. the new york times, the top six stories online today were all about the pardon. you looked at the washington post yesterday. you expected war is over and mess of headlines. on the same day donald trump said he was going to nominate a guy who said he had an enemies list he was going to go after and he was going to arrest journalists. i don't remember headlines this large when donald trump commuted the sentence of roger stone, then let him run the stop the steel campaign. and then parted him after that. again, i'm not asking you to take sides here. i'm just saying, talk about the frustration that many democrats are having on the new york times, washington post, wall street journal. a lot of mainstream organizations blowing this up to a size that they believe is

really out of proportion, given everything donald trump has done in the past and what he's doing right now. >> this has actually come up in my conversations with people running to leave the dnc, the democratic party after the election. because the one big conversation you're having is how do we reach out to people that just believe everything donald trump said. in believe what our candidate said, don't play the media. i have a good answer because the country has gotten so segmented that you just talk about what's on the front pages of the new york times. is never going to get to a lot of voters. they are not going to see the paper in print, they are not going to care. they don't trust it. this is something that's been happening for five or six years. he finally talked to republican voters, they will fix it or remember a couple of incidents where trump was accused of something and it didn't pan out. we mentioned the trump and russia investigation. the comes up again and again. they said russia stole the election for him and i heard that they didn't, therefore

don't trust the media, they were hyperventilating. there were millions of people, maybe they didn't read the paper. but they heard about what was in it. they had some sense of what the big nightly news networks were running. and they tune that out. they read social media now. they don't trust any accusation. not just trump, they won't trust reports about pete hegseth. they will trust criticism of patel or other trump nominees. that is a problem for democrats because they don't fix it. if they convince the new york times to run headlines just the way they wanted that wouldn't fix that problem at all. >> it's a great point. simone, this is one of the great challenges. democrats, again, here i'm talking about the new york times, the washington post, wall street journal. the fact is that so many voters now are getting their news from instagram reels, x, blue sky. >> exactly. again, i think people should be upfront and clear.

the pearl clutching by democrats is not surprising. but for me it is disappointing. this 118th congress, they opened up and impeachment inquiry into president biden. people may have forgotten that. in our nation recent history only five presidents before biden had ever had and impeachment inquiry opened against them. and all the recent impeachment inquiries, except for you joe biden, who is the sixth president to have in impeachment inquiry opened against him, were based on credible evidence. the inquiry was so baseless that the only public hearing that the oversight committee had on this, their own witnesses said there was no -- there. do we actually believe that joe biden was going to let the president-elect's administration making good on their promise to go after his son? joe biden is leaving the stage. he's leaving the stage. this is not a donald trump

situation where he could potentially come back and run for president. he is done. he has done everything and played by the rules that everybody said we had to play by. he's done it all. so good for joe biden and good for hunter, i say. sorry for the calm shop this week. i know how it is. oh well. the democrats need to just really, the house is on fire. and you all are looking for the keys. donald trump is about to hold america's hand when i say this. donald trump is about to be president. donald trump is about to be president and the supreme court has said he's basically a king. please pick >> immunity. >> what is happening here? >> i hear you completely. we appreciate that. dave weigle, thank you very much. great conversation. dave's new piece is available online. simone sanders, thank you very much. we will be watching "the weekend" saturdays and sundays

starting at 8:00 a.m. right here on msnbc. up ahead, we are joined in studio to preview her upcoming broadway show and to discuss "wicked" for the holidays. "morning joe" will be right back. . singer: this is our night! shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects! only shingrix is proven over 90% effective. shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix doesn't protect everyone and isn't for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. tell your healthcare provider if you're pregnant or breastfeeding. increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can happen so take precautions. most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling where injected, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach.

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-- men's i won the tony for playing in the original broadway production of "wicked." as you've heard, has been adapted to a film that is in theaters now. we are so lucky to have her joining us now in studio. welcome. great to see you. >> in morning. >> such an honor to be here and watch you guys all the time. >> it's great to see you. we have so much talk to you about. i want to start with you coming back to broadway. people ever the news and they are so excited. the caller the queen of broadway. >> she is the queen. >> it embarrasses you so i turn to them. so tell us about redwood, the show that you had such a hand in creating obviously. it's so personal to you. >> i co-conceived the show with my director and writer over a decade ago. i learned that a woman had

lived in a tree, redwood tree for over 730 days in order to protest the logging companies. before i actually fell in love with the redwoods i want to that i actually fell in love with the idea of escaping and what it would be like to turn everything off and sort of go into this tranquil, what i thought would be a tranquil place, a sacred place. and the idea of what i was capable of as a woman. i do something like that? what would be my advocacy, my passion, my fortitude to be able to endorse something like that? then i educated myself and fell in love with these incredible, gentle giants. and learned that the ethos of the redwoods is this incredible metaphor for us as human beings and how we can be resilient and

survive. so the story is really beautiful. it's really special to me. it's completely original. it completely original musical. it's about the power of nature to help us really heal. >> he said you read the story a decade ago? i think that speaks to what it takes to get something to this stage. from the birth of an idea. so what is the process like for you? not just showing up to perform, but it's your baby. >> i will say that my success has come in a lot of original musicals before. so well acquainted with the patient's that's needed to do and it's something that i love very much. i really feel that there are so many new stories that need to be told. while i love all of the musicals out there with their movie titles or their brand names i feel very committed to finding new work and also getting other young composers a platform to show their work. and it's just wonderful to

create something, to stand at the piano and have a composer write a song for you. you know, it's a process that i love very much. >> people are very excited. it previews on january 24th and opens on february 13th. didn't you start at the neater lender? >> i did. i will take while dressing room, which i share, and now i'm going to knock down the one next door to me where my ex- husband used to be and i'm going to take the whole thing as a suite. >> you've earned it. you've earned a suite. >> thank you very much. >> that moment, that return be on the dressing room. beginning in front of the audience again with a reaction being so immediate and so visceral. what would that be like? >> live performance in the theater, is that what you are asking? i mean, it's my happy place. it's everything. it's the reciprocity you have with the audience and yourself. sort of the more love, the more

authenticity and vulnerability were able to show to give, the more you receive. having this communal experience, just like the redwoods in the community who feed each other and hydrate each other with their interconnected fruits. it's a beautiful sort of parallel for how we feel as actors in the theater. >> you have worked in several different forms. tv, broadway, television at times. what is it like to take a production from the stage to film? >> the biggest thing you have to worry about is singing mouth. when you're in the theater you sing in order to hit the notes. our mouth is open very wide. when you're on screen they come here. but you don't want to make that same crazy face because the cameras are here. i had to tell everybody, but you are faking your singing mouth a little bit.

because you want to still look attractive when you're singing. yeah, it's all about the intimacy with the camera and how subtle and how large. >> he originally played the role of -- 20 years ago on broadway. he won the tony for that. what has it been like to see this phenomenon of the movie take off? and people, like young kids who maybe didn't even see the broadway show now have this entirely new relationship with the thing you have started. >> honestly, it's been very profound moving for myself and i can speak for my good friend tristan as well. we just have such a sense of pride about being a part of this , the genesis of the show, it's legacy. what it represents and sort of the sisterhood that comes from

it, and the permission it gives young people of all genders and in between to feel comfortable being who they are in their most unique selves. >> and cynthia's performance, interviewed her for the movie and she had such reference for you saying, i don't even want to try to do what she did. people call me on it. what's your take on her performance? >> she's a talented woman and didn't need my advice. i told her to enjoy the moment. being her elder and wanting her to it's important because things are so fleeting. we really try to stay in it and appreciate the moment. she is just exquisite and does bring her own thing to it while also being extremely respectful.

and loving to what is established. >> carrying on a legacy of we started and people are so excited for you coming back to broadway. previous for the new broadway musical "redwood" the needle and theater. opening is figure 13th. tony winning actress and cocreator of redwood, good to see you. >> thank you so much. >> still ahead here, you know her from the hit tv show, "this is us. walinksi now she's taking her talents to the stage. actress watson please in "the blood quilt." she joins us here on "the morning joe." "

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welcome back. the powerful new play "the blood quilt" is gathering raver views after its broadway debut. it focuses on four sisters who reunite in their home state of georgia to create a family quilt to honor their mother who

had recently passed away. but when they gathered to read their mothers will what they learn threatens to tear them apart. the question then becomes, can there blood quilt keep the family together? joining us is actress susan watson. she plays one of the four sisters in "the blood quilt." >> thank you for having me pick >> what drew you to this story which clearly has themes that will resonate with a lot of people? >> i think that hall is a prolific writer and i followed her work for the last 10 years or more now. i have been a fan of it. i've been a fan of our director. it's a powerful piece that i feel gives real story and real heart to a black family of women.

i love that it takes time with each woman and gives them their own story line, it takes the time to really carve out real characters that feel like real life. and i wanted to be a part of that. >> there is a story of inheritance. i feel like inheritance and the younger generation grappling with the older generation, letting them down, talk to us about that theme. >> the theme of inheritance, you've got to think about this family that hasn't had much. and the real value of what they have is in these quilts. they have quilts that have been passed down from slavery. people have woven their lives, pieces of their clothing, pieces of their history, their pain into these quilts. and this actually has become a source of family pride. but now, because of the families need to pay the taxes on the home that the mother left neglected, this has now become a resource. like how did he turn this

source of inheritance into something monetary that maybe they can get out of debt with? what does it mean to give up legacy in order to survive? and that has been, i think, an issue that a lot of people have had. what happens when you don't have the means to sort of hold onto the things that are very dear to you? that you actually have to let them go in order to survive. >> how much in that, susan, and you know that black families, like any family, are not monolithic. everybody has their own ambitions, goals. >> that's right pick >> even different memories. thanks giving we can we all remember things differently. >> definitely. >> how important is it that the quilt also remind them of the value of what their fathers and parents did for them while they try to wait monetizing this? on one hand you realize your richness by the people that survive. on the other hand, you

have immediate needs. >> yeah. and that exact juxtaposition is between older sister clementine and the younger sister amber. one has a connection to it. she moved on with her life and will soon not forget what she has been through with the family and move on into the more modern world of being a lawyer. and all of these things that have become priority in her life. and you have the older sister who has stayed in the islands and really has a deep connection to the family, history and the roots. it means everything to her. like you said, it's the different perspectives of what this means. they both see value in it. she sees value of keeping it and sees the value of selling it. but they both see the value. it's just two sides of this coin. and the need is what takes precedent. it's like what needs to happen for this family to survive it. and that is eventually having to let go of the quilts, which is really sad.

it's really sad. then you kind of thing, well then what happens? the world is able to experience the great thing that their family has, this great legacy the family has left. >> a powerful story. and you can see "the blood quilt" at lincoln center new house theater right here in new york city through december 29th. actress susan watson, thank you very much. we appreciate you being here. . ♪♪ customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see.

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good morning, and welcome to a special holiday hour of morning joe. we are serving up top discussions and interviews from recent weeks. new reporting in the bulwark. it is not just some of the presidential elects most pics, but they believe all of them

well. new reporting details the growing sense of confidence within the gop and the team for trump that nudges some of the elects most controversial pics will be confirmed, all of them. a senior aide told the bulwark, he has all of these guys. it is all over but the shouting. joining us now, the reporter on the story. mark, tell us more about what you are hearing. >> departure from the remarks is that he plays a big role in the discussion, as she appears to oppose pete hegseth, they call for a primary. and suddenly, she started to look around and realized, this might be a mistake and started to warm toward him. at the same

time, the arkansas senator took a different approach. and essentially told the conference, i expect everyone in our conference to support the republican president nominees and confirm them. so, those two separate senators told a story of what the senators in the body politic face, which is, get on the trump train or get tied to the tracks. and all indications right now for a lots of senators are, they are on the trump train. and to his point, by the way, he researched it and said, for clinton, there were only two from a president, members of the own party against their own nominees. there is the argument they are making both the trump transition team and the republicans who support him, you must the boat along the lines of what donald trump wants because that is history

and that is what we do. >> let me ask you a broader question. because very few people can read the tea leaves better than you can. donald trump has an instinctive and dark genius. that is why he is president of the united states again. but, do you think that within the trump circle and with trump himself, has anyone realized a couple of things? the past is the past. will it be revenge or results that the presidency will be all about? will it be about hurting people, or helping people? what is his instinct in all of this? >> i do not know. what i would do is go to the recent past and the way in which he is running his campaign. it was run in such a where where he had professional people in charge who gave him

the room to be donald trump and do what he wanted to do. i call it the maga prayer. they accepted the thing they could not change and -- that is the fundamental nature of donald trump. what they did do, they tried to change the other things, to let's say, minimize the damage of his bad decisions. what they did not do is leak or undermine him, or countermand him. i think there was a general persuasion that we had never heard. if that structure holds true, and this is and if, i think this white house will look more like the campaign, where you have the professionals in charge who did professional things to help win and it will look less like a house of horrors. those are if's in his favor and the favor that people hope this white house will not be

dysfunctional. that prayer fueled the campaign. but, we will just have to wait and see. >> back to the pics for a minute. one said this, trop has all of these guys. it is all over but the shouting. trump is getting his pics. my boss, is very popular in his state, but, he knows it becomes a choice between him and trop, you will lose, and he will lose badly. does someone like the senator hear the footsteps of the potential primary challenge? someone who has won a couple of times in her state? you can go down the line. these are popular senators. do they fear a primary enough to vote for people they know are holding aspect wholly unqualified? >> good question.

she was told when this blowback started, and apparently it was organic, how do i make this stop? basically, she was already in the know more mode, i don't want to deal with this. she started moving toward hags that. this is a numbers game. the transition team is not interested in bipartisanship. they feel it is a mandate. that can certainly be disputed but there are 53 republican senators. the way they look at it is, they just need to get 50 votes. what does that mean? they can only lose four. they are trying to get 50 plus one. if they can make them pay,

they will. but ultimately, this team is focused with its eyes on the prize. that means getting the cabinet confirmed. next week by the way, his touring meeting with senators on the hill, that will be quite a scene. they are reporting he will have trouble there. the people that i have spoken to in the senate still think he will make it. but, we have a lot to ball to play and a lot of time until january 20th. >> i was just going to say, we are talking about gabbard and pete hegseth. we are talking about patel. and there are so aspect republicans that are horrified. she has to worry about her primary. okay great, you figured out how to get past the primary, you'd then have to win in a deep blue state. if you are going to win that if

you are susan collins and you support pete hegseth? when you support all of them, it is very difficult there. then you look at mitch mcconnell and bill cassidy, you look at others that are up in 2028 and after donald trump leaves office, those people obviously are people that john could work with more, if they are trying to figure out how to move the vote around. >> the national reporter, thank you, very much. >> can we show the graphic one more time of his article? usually, i think people would be offended if this is how they were to -- depicted. but i will say, the people that were talking were probably thinking, i like that graphic. i like it a lot. >> okay. yikes. >> time now for a look. >> take a statue of that. coming up, we talk to another candidate who is the

next chairperson of the d&c. you are watching a special holiday edition of morning joe. m >> start your day with nature made. and try new zero sugar gummies.

welcome. the race is on for the democratic national committee chair. the young democrats of america held the first forum during its winter meeting last week. former governor martin o'malley and new york state senator all took part. welcome. >> so good to have you here. we had the most powerful democrat in america sitting next to you. >> let me ask you this. over the last three decades, we have seen the fight in the democratic party. back in the late 80s, it was he democratic leadership council against the rainbow coalition.

how do you see you running as a new face naturally, trying to bring the party together rather than have these torn sides, which only leads to the ultimate defeat of the democratic party? when you have the conservative or so-called moderate side against those more progressive? >> this is the core question. how do we rebuild the once big democratic tent? the tent that is spraying on both edges? i've done this for 12 years. i come from a district that donald trump won by 12 points. i won it by 14 three times. i live and breathe every day coalition building. how do we bring back folks under that tent?

we have not dominated a national election since 2008. it has been 16 years since we have had a dominant performance. we have either white knuckle dates or, we have lost. the next d&c chair, i believe the single most important thing that he must do or she, is throw out the old playbook. it just has not worked in a long time. if you are a candidate who has been at the table, who has been a dnc lifer and you have not delivered that change in the 10 years you have had a seat, who will expect you will deliver that change? this moment calls for an outsider, and aggressive outsider, who knows how to win. >> we have a question. >> it was interesting to read what you wrote. you said we are in a moment that is about re-alignment. can you talk not about the policy side of things, because i think the harris campaign had

policies that were on the books that were helping working-class americans but they did not cut through, but, can you talk about the character and styles -- my kid was called the five of the candidate, that you can see who can break through and seem authentically connected to working-class americans at the moment? how important is that to you? >> that is right. this is not a policymaking role. i will give you an example that underscores it. >> you represent how you see the aura of the party. >> of course, i spoke with a member a few days ago. obviously arizona is a battleground state. she told me, she got in the heat of the campaign with 16 glossy mailers a day from the democrats. i run a lots of campaigns. i have won the mall. there is nothing that the mailers are doing that the 15th was not doing. we have to get a way as a party from the d.c. consultant class.

i refer to them as the cocktail circuit, and shift our focus and resources to be boots on the ground. the party loyalists, who are actually moving the needle and are on the trenches. they feel like they have been taking testing taken for granted. i don't want to be the chair that picks up the phone and practically calls them when i need folks at the rally. i want them in the room when we are done developing the guidance and rebuilding the working class we have lost. i come from a union household. a working class also. we need to get back to talking to the folks who quite frankly feel completely disconnected from the democratic party. we use over academically

language as if we are running for university chancellor. we have to start becoming relatable. >> senator, you have won your district each time donald trump has one. -- won. if you become the chair of the d&c, how do you go to washington and get the collective brainiacs at the top of the party? i say that lightly. all you hear from them is, how can people vote for donald trump? or, the alternative is, how can people be so stupid? how do you tell those other democrats that the people who voted for donald trump are not stupid? >> you are 100% right. we have gotten into this bad habit as a party of lecturing people and telling them what they should think and how they should feel and what they don't agree with. and if they don't agree, they are stupid. as you just stated. the next d&c chair has to do a lot the rebuilding of the

coalition. a perfect example is the conflict in gaza where because we have walk on egg shells, because we had not engaged meaningfully, we have managed to take off every stakeholder. there are 40,000 orthodox in my district. they both for me but they feel completely disconnected. the average party has precipitous declines on election day. college activists feel completely disconnected from the democratic party. the next d&c chair needs to go with contrition to groups like this. leaders in these communities. stakeholder groups and explain, we had not gotten it right the last couple of years. and we want to do better. we want you back under our once tent -- big tent. it starts with reaching out and dismissed ready respect. if you have been a part of the apparatus for 5-10 years as some of the other candidates have and you have not been

doing these things, who is to expect that you are going to start now suddenly doing these things? i have done this daily and difficult terrain. that is what i look to scale up as the d&c chair. >> one of the most striking things about his win was the gains he made in a place like new york city. among african american voters, latinos, asian american. what you read into that? that is a trend we saw across the country. what do you see those numbers and how do you bring the back? >> it starts by showing up. when i say that, it is not paying a celebrity or a tick- tock influencer to wrangle a team of his 29 young black and hispanic voters. we as democrats have to show up. if you look in a lots of urban centers, there was not a shift

in support from harris to trump, we just did not come out. these are voters who feel like we have taken them for granted. the way i over perform in my majority communities, is, i show up and listen. i do something about the issues they care about. general healthcare access. the rent is too high. we have to stop putting people into different academic buckets and categories. we can become concerned with that and we have lost sight of doing work on issues that they care about. so they didn't show up to vote for anyone. >> clinton told me last week, you have to meet people where they live. too many people believe the democrats did not do that. blow -- bill clinton believed the democrats did not do that. mike asked a great question about the trump voters. you call all of them stupid, you will lose the next election

too. even if you do not understand why someone may have voted for him, there is a reason why you and i say all the time, we are in the conversion business. they do not care when someone converts. we just want them to convert. if the democrats are going to win in two years, in four years, in six years, they need to be in the conversion business and do not be judgmental. we can talk about this. you do not tell someone you are going to , come to the church. you figure out how to meet them where they live. and then move them over to your side. >> absolutely. one of the things that a good minister understands, if jesus did most of his ministry outside of the synagogue -- in fact he was only in it twice in the bible. >> he was criticized by religious leaders for being with the's aspect senators.

the people the religious leaders would not be around. >> that is what those in civil rights do. the ones that i am around. don't try to beat them down and just think you are a bad person. >> and self-righteous. self-righteousness is not going to get the people the democrats need to get to win the next election. >> new york state senator for the d&c chair, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. next, we join the table to talk about the groundbreaking new documentary on the family separation policy from truck. morning joe will be right back with that. that. >> d monkey ood and grounded. for low prices... for holidays with pets, there's chewy.

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one of the issues i raised was, we have run out of beds for babies. we were seeing so many babies. but the babies cannot tell you they were separated. that is a look at the new doppler metairie -- documentary, separated. the documentary directed examines the first family separation policy and the ongoing human rights crisis.

he serves as the executive producer on the film. good to see it. this is a store you have been on focal years reporting for us and writing a book. and now this film as well. i think we have so much distance from the heat of that issue, it is worth going back and reminding people exactly what the policy is and how it was put into place. >> the other thing i have just been thinking about is, we talked about this before the election. that film came out in october. but the film has never been more relevant than it is today because to go back, you asked in the summer of 2018, i don't think we will forget what it was like when the world rose up when the trump administration deliberately ripped apart 5500 children from their parents for no other reason than to harm them. now we are on the verge of mass deportation. it is family separation under another name. it is on a massive scale of

parents from their children in the interior of the country. at their schools, workplaces and in their homes in a way we have not seen before. what a blessing it is to not only start this but to get to continue with with the oscar- winning director who has trained his lens on some of the most controversial figures in history. and now, this chapter in american history which the -- >> remind people, what was the goal of the family separation? we know would actually did but how did they defend it? >> as a career official says in the film, separations were the goal. the harm was a purpose. i say that objectively as a journalist who has covered this for 6+ years. listen to the people in the film. prosecutions were a mechanism. that is what they kept saying. they said, this is about following the law.

but, that is not what is about if you listen to other people. the point was to harm. the point was the cruelty. >> you just hinted at why this is so important. not just because it is a moment in time, but perhaps foreshadows what is coming with the next administration and the mass deportations. he did follow through in 2018. as you chronicle. it is the same people involved at this time around. >> tom homan, you will see his name oliver. you see emails presented in this way, it is extraordinary. it documents this forensic way. it is a forensic examination of this policy. just like of vietnam, iraq and even steve bannon and what became of january 6th. you look at how this all came together and it is all laid out right there for everyone to

see. in the way that only he can. i could never do what he has done in this film. he communicates in a visual way. like you see on your screen. with these emails and documented interviews but also with the narrative and the fictionalized story of a mother and son that is put together, it is really a beautiful film he has put together. >> as you reflect on the making of the film and the origin of your work here, cruelty is the point. cruelty will be continue to be the point apparently going forward. how do you rationalize the idea, the fact, that so many people voted for donald trump to put him back in office, knowing that things like this are happening? >> as he mentioned, this cast

of characters are going back in. they put this into place in the first place. my personal belief is, remember, to me it is an inspiring story also because everyone around the world rose up to stop this policy from happening. it was universal. the pope spoke out in 2018 and said, this is not okay. we are morally opposed from ripping children apart from their parents on purpose as a goal of the immigration policy. i was on the floor. i saw them hold up those mass deportation signs. my personal belief is, even for the same people that support it, i don't think they comprehend what is, is what happened that summer as well. i do think people are tired. they have resorted to going back to talk about immigrants as point on a bar graphs or a political football.

but, when they see what happens under this policy that they have promised, they will be reminded of what happened in 2018. i do not think that will be the case after that. >> it is one thing to go after hardened criminals, he is going after children being ripped away. where are they? have they been reunited? what is the line now? >> you ask that every time i talk to you. today, there are still 1360 without confirmed reunification's from that summer. they could be permanent government created orphans. last night we had a screening and i was with kathleen who was in charge of the organization, justice and motion. they go door to door looking for these families to bring them back together. she said, some of them may never be because of the way --

you will see it in the movie, there was no record-keeping. that was on purpose. there are emails that say, what a fiasco. or, this defeats the entire purpose when they start putting them together because that is what they wanted when they instituted this policy. >> the story continues. i know you will continue to cover it. the new documentary premieres this saturday at 9:00 eastern on msnbc. great to see you. >> thank you. i don't know if you know it, i am normally fats. but since i have lost this weight, and now i am just arrogant. that was a look at the new comedy special. he joins us next on morning joe. joe. >>

i am not playing major league baseball. i'm just a fat guy trying to not die. but, it is not there. >> neither is balding and being born with no pigmentation. but, i have learned to deal with it. this is an exciting time for me. i am then. i am in my 30s. [ laughter ] it is crazy. most of my adult life i heard this constant monologue. you have to stop eating. you have to control your impulses. now i know all i needed was a weekly shot that killed the passion inside me. a new look at the new standup comedian. the complexities of marriage and the challenges to come.

and being a parent to many teenagers. he now joins us live. >> it is great to be here. i am so excited to be here on a panel with diverse bunch of white guys. we finally made it. because of the hard work of msnbc, we have four white guys sitting here. we have made it. >> you know what i love? watching you watch yourself doing standup or watching any actor watch themselves. what are you thinking? are you critiquing yourself? >> this might sound harsh but all i think is, god hates me. is that bizarre? it is brutal. because i listen to my sets. i don't like my voice. i don't like a lots of it. but, that is good, right? that is low self-esteem. it makes somewhat better. >> it drives you. let's talk about the special.

jim gaffigan. the skinny. why did you want to put the focus on that? it is something that is in our society right now. a lot of people talk about it. >> i just think it is really weird that people are secretive about it. i mean, i am not paid but, i should be. if they want to send me money. i do not think there is any shame in taking care of yourself. really. it is not like i am not a glutton, but instead of eating three boxes of triscuits, i meeting a half a box. you know what i mean? >> i would love to see him in a mounjaro ad. >> may be in a tab? i feel like it we -- would be similar to a viagra ad. >> what happened? what triggered this? was it the cardiologist

talking? or was it you just getting in front of the mirror out of the shower? >> i live in enough denial. but, thank you for that image. people are eating breakfast. my doctor is great. she brought it up. she was like, you are fat, why don't you think about doing this? and i said, is not going to work but, i will try it. and, it worked. it is amazing. anyway i could just take a shot, and feel less emotion is a good thing. >> it is magic. >> [ laughter ]. >> that is awesome. thank you so much. we have been such huge fans for such a long time. my kids and myself on broadway, standup, everything else. we are a long way from hot pockets to this. but i will say, what is

interesting is, i love how you say your reaction from your friends, were not to say anything to you but to your wife. is he okay? it was easier for them to believe that you were sick and dying, then that you had discipline. >> absolutely. there is no scenario where i would have any type of willpower. i am not going to have self- discipline. i worked out in my 20s and 30s but you know? i have done that. right? it is too much effort. i cannot do it anymore. >> shot is better. let's watch another clip. this is one of his favorite subjects. being a parent to teenagers. parenting teenagers has made me a better comedian. no, that is not it. a bitter comedian. i know that sounds negative. but, it is almost sad when a kid becomes a teenager because

you have this cute 12-year-old and then they become satan. [ laughter ] you can literally witness the curiosity and wonder transform into body odor and poor judgment. and then you, the parents, you are supposed to learn to communicate with them. my wife is emails me articles. i am like, delete. we are on the brink of this. our kids are 13 and 10. thank you for the warning. when your kids watch, what do they say? >> i try not to interact with my children. i think they get it. i don't really care but, i have a 12-year-old, three teenagers, and a 20-year-old. i am living in a psych ward. it is a lot. but, they kind of get that. there is an odd relationship.

i don't specify which kid is torturing me the most. it is a weird thing raising teenagers. you are not going to hear it. throughout the years you hear about the teenage years been difficult but, you only have it make sense when they are teenagers. >> i like it where you say, it makes it easier to talk about them knowing they have no interest in your career he will not see the special. >> they will not see it. obviously, i joke around about it because i love them but, it is a crisis. parenting, there is a reason why every parent of a teenager looks like they just walked away from a car accident. because, it is hard. >> there is some shock. i want to ask you about, i don't know if you have been back since, which are run

upstairs on saturday night live? i told you, i had a long walk listening to you yesterday. about how this came to be and if you don't mind sharing this story with us, your representatives told them that you were making videos? >> yes. saturday night live is obviously a huge, iconic show. the standard procedure is, out of respect for the process, you don't campaign ports. here is my impression. i was very respectful. but in the background, my manager and agent apparently had been telling the saturday night live people that i would submit these videos of me doing tim walz, which i had not been doing. they kind of sprung it on me. one night at 11:00 p.m., they

were like yes, we are telling people that you are doing these tim walz and presence. and now, they want these videos. that means i had to do them right now. and they are like, guess. my tim walz is an impression of my brother. i am from the midwest. my brother is a sweet, sentimental enthusiastic eyewear as i have a dark heart. i am like the grinch. >> you played it well. that is good agency -- agent. the skinny streaming now and is predictably hilarious. always great to see you. >> congratulations. still ahead, josh brolin joins morning joe to talk about his new memoir. plus live reports on the top headlines near the top of the hour. stay with us. us. >>

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i'm sure they will say, gosh, i wish he could have done better.

gone this way or that way. i am sure something will pop into my head here. there's pressure trying to come up with an answer. i don't want to sound like i have not made mistakes. i am confident i have. it is just, -- you have really put me on the spot. maybe i'm not as quick as i should be. okay. hold on. that was josh brolin. now he is reflecting on his own past. a really uplifting book. >> and the academy award

nominated actor takes readers through his incredible life. the most dramatic ups and downs going all the way back to his childhood in california. where the seeds were planted for a successful career and a tumultuous personal life. he joins us now. may i start? let's start here. >> thank you for being here. i have heard you are not here all the time. >> we are glad to have you here. i want to talk about your parents. your late mother was a flight attendant in her early 20s but was afraid to fly unless he was drunk. she would insult and then out drink cowboys and truckers. she slept with a loaded pistol at her bedside table. she was rumored to be on someone's hit list.

my parents are like horses that maybe fell out of a trailer along a stretch of highway. i now have gone sour. my parents have a look in their eyes that always suggests that they might bite you at some point. one has a maniacal look ready to strike at any moment and the other has the same placid slow stair as lenny. >> let me tell you, she does audiobooks for you. >> you have to laugh at it. >> both are dangerous. >> right on. >> tell me about living with your parents? i feel empathy to both of you. explain why. >> explain why you feel empathy? >> i think parenting as we said before, us being parents -- you

find yourself especially me looking back on what kind of a parent i was when i was 20, what parent i was at 28, 37, 45 -- it changes. you go through the trajectory. our normal trajectory, and then you are having to raise kids and your responsibility is to hopefully get them to become as self-sufficient and sure of themselves as they can be. how you do that when you are in a life of perpetual adolescence? for me, the drinking and all of that -- whatever. alcohol had an effect on our whole family. that kept us in adolescence. i was burned to drink. that is different. my mother bird me to drink.

without being creepy, i was a circuit husband of sorts because my dad was not a wild man. he would have three beers and hold onto the table to make sure nobody saw him sway but my mother did not. she drove 100 miles per hour and i was in the seat next to her. it's very hard to promote a book like this. because, it is very emotional. hopefully it is poetic and literally viable. but the truth of the matter is, i was spending for a month when i was doing the audible. i got halfway through and diet went, what did i do? i have to burn any evidence. am i crazy? but now people, kind of like your response. people are reading it and every response is different. i did howard stern and he obviously read the whole book. he had a visceral reaction. there was this kind of kinship

that we got to share throughout that two hours that, that is what you hope for when you write something. i am not writing just about my perpetual life on the red carpet waving at people. i do not find that interesting. >> i immediately thought of matthew mcconaughey. he is the endorsement on the back of the book. i am curious about the decision to write the book given what you just said. oh my gosh, what have i done? why did you feel like it was important to take this out of your own heart and soul and share it with a whole bunch of other people? >> i do not think it is important. i don't think any of it is important. i just felt like i had written books before and i threw them into a dark corner and they gathered dust. but, i loved the act of doing this because it wasn't for me. there was something with the idea of putting it out there. when you hit 50, -- it is

almost like when you get sober. i did that. i got away with it. now i will live this life. i feel like it is a second life moment. where i am writing and directing now. i wrote this memoir. i think the process for me was, instead of this word out illicitly copying other writers, it was becoming my own. and especially because when i wrote it, i wrote twice this. in the process of cutting it down and clarifying, that was the hardest and most enlivening learning process. >> that is incredible. by the way, let's talk about some roles. i want to start with roles. >> i can read as him. >> wait a minute. >> you actually have a connection with lawrence

o'donnell. you know him as mr. sterling? >> i do. back in the day. it worked. it was a good show and people still bring it up. but, the friendship lasted. i like him very much. usually there are a couple of people in your life that you go to and you go, how are we? how are we doing? he usually gives it to you pretty grounded. there is always a sense of hope when i talk to him. >> i wanted to ask you also, we talked before. i was talking about -- a lot of people want to talk about no country for old men and other great works. but like i said before, i was mesmerized by how in game finished. an adventure series with 26 films. one of the most remarkable and

-- again, one of the most remarkable achievements lately, 26 movies into a three-hour finale. i thought it was remarkable. >> and to book in 10 years of success and make the decisions that will be interesting enough to be the number one movie of all time. i don't know if it still is. it is an avatar adventures thing because back and forth. what i love about them and i thought marvel did a good job is, they brought in great actors. it was something humanizing about those movies that should not have been. >> rights. is there a role after all of these years that stands out to you? i did a good job here.

i am not sure that everybody saw it that should have seen it? >> there is a role that i just did. knives outs. i was very pleased that i was chosen for that. it was a great cast. it is a brilliant script. he is a bright director. i am happy about that. but i will go back and do floating -- flirting with a disaster. i am a character actor. >> that is very specific. the new memoir is on sale now. josh brolin. thank you so much. thank you for sharing. we really appreciate it. president joe biden and president-elect donald trump sitting out very different messages yesterday.

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