happy holidays, and thanks

for sharing a little bit of the season with us. donald trump's second term as president has not yet begun, but in the 52 days since he was elected, we have gotten a real preview of the chaos and the apparent corruption that the next four years is likely to bring. president-elect trump has already begun filling his cabinet with a group of enablers and billionaires, and billionaire enablers. they were either chosen because they will let trump do whatever he wants or chosen because they have paid for the privilege of doing whatever they want. you have already seen one would be nomination go up in flames, trump's first pick for attorney general, matt gaetz, who had to withdraw from consideration, amid swirling allegations of sexual misconduct. gaetz has denied all of those allegations, but a bipartisan report from the house ethics committee, released earlier this week, found that gaetz violated house rules, state and federal laws, and other standards of product, prohibiting prostitution, statutory rape, alleged drug use, acceptance of impermissible gifts, the of

special favors and privileges, and obstruction of congress. that person was donald trump's pick to be the nation's top law enforcement official. and then, there are trump's other embattled nominees, pete hegseth dogged by allegations of alcohol abuse and sexual misconduct -- which he denies. there is toll see gabbard, who has been accused of being a russian agent, and is trump's pick for director of national intelligence. there is robert f. kennedy jr., an anti-baxter who is trump's choice to run the department of health and human services, and then there is kash patel, who has published an actual enemies list, and who trump would like to run the fbi. and then, there is trump's closest ally, his largest donor, and now his apparent copresident -- elon musk. a man who has already brought the country to the brink of a government shutdown. last month, musk whipped hard- line republicans into a frenzy, taking a bipartisan agreement to fund the government through

the year, and threatening to shutter the entire federal government. at that mess finally ended when house democrats bailed out republican speaker of the house mike johnson and provided the votes to fund the government, despite the fact that democrats' key priorities -- already agreed to by the speaker -- that those priorities were ultimately tossed out. but, the rebellion that elon musk fomented among house republicans, that rebellion is not over. one week from today, house republicans will have to vote on who they want to be the next speaker in the next congress. house republicans have already proven themselves quite adept at devolving into a protracted speakership fight. remember in january 2023, two years ago, it took them five days and 15 votes to finally elect a speaker, kevin mccarthy. but, this time, the stakes are even higher and the majority is narrower.

if republicans don't choose a speaker within three days of this new congress, they might not be able to certify the election results on january 6th. you heard that correctly. we may be barreling toward another january 6th election certification debacle, only this time, it is about whether republicans can get over the infighting in their own conference to certify a member of their own party, as president of the united states. i mean, it's one way to kick off 2025. happy new year. joining us now our bulwark podcast cohost jim miller and national columnist, philip bomb. thank you, both, for being here. let me survey both of you. philip, 10, who here believes that we will have a speaker on january 6th? i will start with you, philip. >> i was getting ready to raise my hand. look, republicans in congress are focused on one thing and

that is keeping donald trump happy and nothing is going to frustrate donald trump more than if anything happens to delay his becoming president. i am entirely confident, even if it is on some ad hoc coupled together, you get to be speaker for the next 48 hours thing, like some sort of condition -- look, they put a condition on kevin mccarthy's speakership and ended up having him booted. they are very adept at coming up with a temporary solution, and i am 100% confident that no one wants to be the one that made it so that donald trump's january 6th didn't go exactly the way he wanted it to. >> 100% confidence from philip. >> absolutely, yes. >> this program is live but it will be available on tape. i just want to put it out there. >> [ laughter ] that's true, i will stand by it. listen, i applaud the confidence. >> tim, do you think republicans will prove themselves adept at making sure donald trump can certify his election results? >> i don't know if i would use

the word "adept." i think he will stumble into it. i'm with philip, maybe 97%. i will hedged that 3%. but, look, the other option, though, you have to consider is maybe kamala harris will have the courage -- that is just a joke -- to intervene. [ laughter ] but, look, these guys, mike johnson is a dead man walking, politically speaking. he, i think, will probably survive the january 3rd vote because it is hard to beat somebody with nobody. but, he is managing a majority that is much smaller than the one kevin mccarthy couldn't manage. he has already proven incapable of managing it with trump not even in the presidency, yet. and we have a debt ceiling site coming in mid-january. they have only kicked the can for three months on government funding. that comes in march. there is going to be a huge fight over extending the trump tax cuts, that there is disagreement about within the conference. christmas week, they are all fighting over immigration, elon musk, a nativist -- the idea that mike johnson is capable of

navigating this is, i think, preposterous. so, mike johnson's time is coming. i don't think they make it to january 6th. >> the idea that anybody is able to navigate this, seems -- like, i'm not saying that mike johnson is necessarily one of the great speakers of all times, but it's just such an impossible position, to find yourself in, when you have a hard right president with a hard right agenda, and the only way, philip -- you know this well -- the only way things get past -- passed in the house is if democrats bail republicans out. and i guess my question is, does the new reality that democrats aren't going to be sort of staving off crisis for a democratic president, the way they have been in the biden years, but it will be trump that is holding the bag. that, to me, suggests that democrats might be less inclined to deal make and save republican butts, when the rubber hits the road. i kind of wonder what your expectations are for much

getting done in the next congress, even if donald trump, you know, is the puppet master of the house republican conference? >> yeah, i mean, i think the idea that a whole lot is going to pass in congress, i think you are right, that is probably incorrect. i think, two, the democrats will probably give plenty of room to hang themselves, i think it will be obvious that they will be more than willing to let the republicans step on their toes for a while before they actually bail them out. but, at the end of the day, the central dynamic here is that the currency of the republican party at this point in time is attention and anger. the reason you have this caucus, this segment of the caucus that doesn't want to pass these bills is because they recognize that they can derive more value from their audience by being obstructionists, and saying, no, we shouldn't fund the government, this money is wasteful, yada, yada, yada. the government party is more, i would say, overwhelmingly if not entirely dedicated to the idea that the government should actually do stuff, so they step

in to do it, not because they are trying to save mike johnson or donald trump, obviously, but because they think the government needs to be funded and the government needs to do things. the republican party, fundamentally, there are more than a dozen people in the house caucus that don't believe that, they believe it is more important to be on fox news, newsmax, oa and, all these channels, being the one saying, "i don't think the government should spend your money," and they just aren't committed to the government in the same way, so that's where we end up. >> right, if it comes back to basic functionality, democrats might end up saving the day, but tim, to your point, when donald trump, who has said over and over again that he wants to renew his tax cuts, that ultimately benefit the ultra- wealthy, when it comes time to pass that, that will not be done with democratic help. i guess i wonder, given the and narrow majorities, how much in peril is donald trump's agenda, in reality? >> i think it really is. and this is not just a hopium, or resistance for opposers to trump, it is just an analysis of what is happening. look, i spent last week in

phoenix for that turning point usa conference. it was a year and gathering of all the big bang of luminaries, if you want to call them that. look, these folks just don't agree on anything. to philip's point, what animates them is blocking things, is stopping foes, opposing the democrats, opposing the globalists, you know? so, the idea that they are all going to unify, when you need every single republican vote, maybe you can give up one or two to pass the trump tax cuts. again, maybe they will give trump one thing at the beginning because they want to, you know, not totally derail his presidency right out of the jump. republicans might be chaotic and self sabotaging, but maybe they are not quite that self sabotaging, so maybe they can all pull together for one vote, but it is hard to see much more passing after that. especially, again, given the narrow majority of the house, but also the senate. >> can we talk about the senate for a minute, philip? we had a brief nod to the gaetz report that came out, belatedly. i wonder how much you think --

given the reality of the complicated dynamics in the house, which in some ways may provide cover in the senate if they want to buck trump, the failure of matt gaetz, the controversy that is whirling around three of his very important picks, including pete hegseth, tulsi gabbard, and kash patel, and the fact that he is a lame duck. according to the constitution, he is not going to be president again, and i wonder if that gives cover to some republicans who don't actually want to walk the plank on some of the nonsense trump has put out in the ether. >> i think it is sort of like that. one of the things we talked about ever since trump won the election, there is a lot of pressure on democrats, they will have to sort of pick their fights in these nomination battles. but, i have set it on your show before, the republicans are in the same boat. they need to decide how much of the credibility they are willing to lend to these trump nominees, and there are certain republicans who are from states that aren't as far red as a lot

of the states are, or whom may be eyeballing re-election in the future, who may be willing to retire after this, right? who are not going to be willing to after legacy be putting rfk jr. in charge of vaccines in to do what he would like to do. and i think that is going to continue. i think these fights are going to impose a cost on republicans, as well as democrats, and i am not sure that all of these senators are going to -- and that is just denomination fights, much less the legislative fights down the line. >> tim, i'm not going to ask you to make 100% positive predictions. >> he's a chicken, don't worry. >> no, i applaud philip's confidence, but in terms of trump pixie announced that are the most controversial, whether it is kennedy, gabbard, patel, or hegseth, do you think all

four of them make it in? do you think some of them make it in? do you have a thought out where things stand at this hour? >> you know, i would suspect that they would all make it, just because -- look, if you just do the math, the republicans can afford to lose three votes. right? michalski and collins, are the two that people keep saying, you haven't made a lot of money betting on susan college to serve up courage in the past, so i think that is a bit iffy. mcconnell seems ready to do thumbs down on a few things because he is on his way out, but then who? i mentioned that last week, i got to talk to matt gaetz briefly, he told me that john curtis, the new senator from utah, was adamant with him in private that she was not going to vote for him, and would never vote for him. so, who knows? maybe this guy, john curtis, will show some motivation. >> i think we lost tim miller, but he is going to come back because we are not letting him go. that is all i am saying. we are going to take a quick break. there he is! oh, there he is!

so, tim, just hold that thought because we need you more, we need you for another segment, because coming up, the president-elect has spent christmas fantasizing taking control of greenland, and canada, and panama. yes, really, that is what he was doing while you were roasting chestnuts. that is what he was doing. we are going to discuss the looming imperialism of a second trump administration. but first, a fight has broken out between maga and doge, and it is not pretty. that is next. next. chris! jason! boop! friends. let's go, let's go, friends! hold onto your dice. woohoo!! -nice frosting, pratt. -thank you! how we doin', keke? tastes like money to me. i can't go back to jail! wait, did you rob my bank? -hehe. -are we winning!? -ha ha ha! -oh boy! yeah! money, power, friendship. let's go!

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nothing says "happy holidays" like a conservative civil war on the internet. the so-called doge faction of trump's coalition, led by elon musk and vivek ramaswamy is now openly feuding with trump's anti-immigrant maga wing. the infighting broke out after trump named an indian american venture capitalist, to be his adviser on artificial intelligence. that immediately triggered racially charged backlash from far right activists like laura loomer, who said that krishnan's appointment and his support for green cards for highly skilled workers, was deeply disturbing and in direct opposition to trump's agenda. musk and ramaswamy disagreed, and fired back with separate online posts, backing krishnan and foreign-born workers. back with me now are podcast

host tim miller and washington post columnist, philip bump. also joining the discussion, washington post national investigative reporter, carolyn nick. we have two washington reporters, one bulwark reporter, you guys are all awesome, thank you for joining on this friday night. carol, let me start with you. this puts donald trump in a remarkably awkward position, not just because two of his fans are fighting openly, and on the internet, and with a deep divide between them, because trump may actually have to weigh in on policy specifics. do you have any sense on where he might land? do you have any intuition about how he is going to side in this fight? >> you know, i think the best answer to that question, alex, is passed his prologue. when we watched donald trump as president in the first term, the most important question he constantly asked his advisers,

whether it be his chief of staff, or miller, or steve bannon, what he asked over and over again in those early months of his presidency, and then later, was "what about my face?" "how will this go with my face?" so important to him. and one thing that i feel like it's really critical to donald trump, is making sure that base is happy. and right now, this little civil war is like a christmas present, essentially a late christmas present, to people who have been sort of waiting to see the first fractures in the donald trump foreman for the second term. those who questioned how long elon musk would stand for some of the policies that really got trump his incredible popularity ratings in this first term. it is clear he is going to have to cool this down in some way. and whether or not he steps in and makes a policy pronouncement, i'm not so sure. but, i think he's going to find a way to get some cold water on

this as quickly as possible, because he doesn't want his base talking about how donald trump is sort of listening to the circus master, elon musk, tell him how to bring in more foreign workers, because americans have a culture of mediocrity, as was implied in some of the postings by vivek ramaswamy, and also by elon musk in the last couple of days. >> yeah, i want to get to those posts in a minute, tim. but, i think carol is so spot on in highlighting that trump is concerned with his base. newsflash, a billionaire, immigrant, silicon valley tech pro, not trump space. if it is the elon musk shadow president in, or that elon musk is not one of us kind of thing, something is going to be the straw that breaks the camels back, here. it is hard for me to imagine that at some point, and maybe some point soon, trump is going to have to betray his friendship with musk. >> you know, look, there are some natural tensions here and

it is appropriate that i am coming at you from my parents' basement, because in order to understand all the characters, you have to be deep into the maga online world, to understand the fractures and the fighting, here. but, trump added in this tech bro world, you have musk, you have rogan, you have smarter, more vc type folks, like bark and recent. they play pretend on the culture war. they are happy to go along with the culture war when it came to covid. they were happy to go along with the culture war when it came to trans people. all of these other random things that sprout up on the maga right. but, this immigration issue is core to that tech part of the audience. meanwhile, the steve bannon wing, if you will, of maga, the ultra maga wing, nativism, and being anti-immigrant, is core to them. so, like, this is a fight that you can't really find a common ground for.

>> philip, i agree with tim, this is not just some holiday kerfuffle. this is a significant -- this is a real one, this is a big one, and i am old enough to remember, philip, the republic national convention went trump supporters all had "mass deportations now" signs. this is the thing that gets them fired up. how do you see, from a political perspective, the cleave between this sort of wealthy, tech bro, coastal republican elite -- they do exist -- and the maga base. how do you see that getting translated into the hall of congress, where they are going to have to find funding for a lot of this? >> to some extent, this gets to the question of how much power is donald trump going to have now that he is a lame duck? now that his power is only going to be exerted fundamentally in republican primaries, how much clout does

that bring to bear? how much do republicans actually worry about that? my guess is that over the short term in particular, they worry about it quite a bit. but, yes, this divide we are seeing here is very fascinating and entirely predictable, as we pointed out. the maga movement has a fundamental stream of this identity politics of white grievance, which, when you talk about things -- they were willing to talk about, oh, dei is this terrible thing, some of that was sincere, and some of that was disingenuous, to tim's point. but, there are a lot of trump supporters who do not fundamentally believe any immigrants can come to the country and have jobs that could potentially be done by americans. elon musk, for example, he has a lot of people that he has hired at his businesses, he has a lot of people that are working at tesla, for example, that are on work he says that he has a lot of respect for. he doesn't fundamentally understand that there are also a lot of immigrants that do work in the agricultural field,

so on, so forth. this is where musk is falling into the dying fervor trap of not really knowing what he is talking about, so even for him, there is an inconsistency. he doesn't get that there is a similarity here. so, because of that, because of this tension on both immigration and identity broadly within the maga movement and because you have musk, doesn't fully understand about the ramifications for what he is pushing forward, then you get this tension and it is not clear that donald trump is going to be able to pull everyone together, because at some point in time, republicans are going to understand he is not the key to their future. >> carol, you mentioned vivek ramaswamy's tweets, which get at the fundamental difference here between the maga base and the doge coalition. i don't even know how big the doge coalition is beyond elon musk and vivek ramaswamy. but, at any event, vivek ramaswamy, in a very long post on x, said, among other things, "our american culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence." and he blamed '90s tv shows like "friends," and "family matters." "trump election hopefully marks the beginning of a new golden era in america, that once again prioritizes achievement over normalcy, excellence over my mediocrity, nerdiness over. "

i'm just not sure a tech bro, a wealthy tech bro, telling americans they are mediocre and lazy is a perfectly fine-tuned message for the trump base. what is your opinion of this, carol? >> i think i would just stick with some reporting and say, you know, elon musk kind of waved into this drama to try to, i don't know, explain vivek's point, at least from the tech bro perspective and calm the waters a little, but he ultimately double down and started to roil the waters even more. and to your point, alex, this is not ideal for the numbers, the true quantity, if you will, of voters who got trump elected. you are so right to point out, how big is the doge coalition?

the doge coalition is as big as its pocketbook, that is its value. that is what is important, the billions of dollars that are behind all of the folks who helped trump get elected. but, in terms of numbers, and votes, and showing up for midterm elections, it is people who are like, what are you saying? what elon musk's actual quote was, i believe, something along the lines of, "in america, we don't have enough extremely talented and extremely motivated people who can work in my tech industry." and that is pretty striking. i'm not saying he's wrong. i'm not saying he's right. but, what a striking thing to say to the maga base, which got trump elected and said, we have to do something about americans, we have to stop these people coming across the border, feeding off our economy, taking away from our children's school time. we need somebody to look out for americans.

to say you are not motivated or excellent enough in your field, donald trump is going to have to come in, in some way, and swoop in on this one. >> remember when tucker carlson was talking very animatedly about daddy coming home to spank someone? now, maybe we know who those people are. phil miller, tim bump, carol, friends of the show, really appreciate your time tonight. coming up, is canada on track to become the 51st state? donald trump thinks so. that is coming up. but, first, how did we get here? we are going to take a look back at the warning signs from 2024. that is next. that is next. my life is full of questions... mom, is yellow a light or a dark? how do i clean an aioli stain? thankfully, tide's the answer to almost all of them. why do we even buy napkins? —use tide. —can cold water clean white socks? it can with tide. do i need to pretreat guacamole? not with tide. this is chocolate, right? —just use... —tide... yeah. no matter who's doing it,

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donald trump won the popular vote in the 2024 election by just one .5%, but he won all seven swing states, including the blue wall states of michigan and pennsylvania, both currently governed by democrats. in the closing weeks before the election, i traveled to both of those states, and in both of them, the warning signs for democrats where there in plain sight. in saginaw, michigan, which was the only county in the state to

vote for every presidential winner since 2008. in saginaw, i spoke with dozens of union workers about the election and this is what they were saying. >> reporter: all right, so, by a show of hands, how many of you are paying close attention to this election? okay, that's -- i'm going to say that's like, half the audience. is anybody undecided? okay. >> i'm undecided because i just haven't -- i haven't seen enough of it, yet. i need to pay closer attention and kind of do more independent research before i make my judgment. >> reporter: what have you caught of this campaign? have there been news stories about the candidates that have made its way to your information feed? >> not particularly. it is just how people kind of act around this time, it is a little crazy, so i try not to partake so much. >> i'm supporting kamala harris because i have seen four years -- well, actually, i have seen nine years of donald trump.

we have to move our country forward. i think kamala harris, a generation like that, younger than myself, needs to start moving this country forward. donald trump is pulling us backwards, not moving us forward. that's why i support kamala harris. young people, there's a lot of young people in this room. i see the policies of kamala harris, of the infrastructure act, that has put most of these people, here, back to work for pretty much their entire career, at a good wage, that they can support their family, and own a home, and build generational wealth. >> president biden is the most bro-working president we have ever had, the only president to be on a picket line and support working families. infrastructure bill, we have seen, time and time again, him standing up for us. >> do you feel like vice president harris will be as strong as he was? >> i do. >> reporter: who here is voting for the first time? is this anybody's first election?

you guys, back here. what has sort of made its way across your radar? any stories, or issues, or positions? >> mostly just immigration. >> reporter: can you talk a little bit more about that? what about immigration have you been paying attention to? >> there are thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants coming across the border every day, and the vice president has done minimal work to fix that. based on what i have seen. so, i would like that to change. >> reporter: do you feel like donald trump is going to be better on that issue? >> based on what we have seen in his first four years, i do believe he will be better on that, yeah. >> reporter: are you leaning toward trump right now? >> yes, ma'am. >> reporter: is there anything that vice president harris could do at this point in time to change your mind? >> not particularly, no, unless she changes her stance completely on fixing the border. that's -- nope. >> reporter: this is your first election?

>> yeah, it is. >> reporter: and have you been paying attention to stuff? >> some things, but as of right now, it is hard to know what is true, and what is false, as far as both parties are concerned. >> reporter: what issue matters to you the most? >> definitely, issues concerning democracy and what was discussed before the border. >> reporter: what about immigration concerns you? >> the influx in illegal immigration is affecting a lot more than just the people, but our economy, we are losing jobs for the people who live here, people are running out of work, and in return, it is making life as a whole for the country harder. >> reporter: do you feel like one candidate or the other is better on that issue? >> like i said, i don't know what to believe, from what i am seeing, from multiple news outlets, and what comes across my newsfeed, and whatnot. so, i'm not super opinionated,

either way. >> reporter: how do you think you are going to ultimately decide? i think we talked to one gentleman who said, i am just going to go with my heart on election day. >> yeah, as the election comes a little closer, i think the more i see and the more truth that ends up coming out, i will be able to make a more educated -- >> reporter: how many people care about whether their union endorses a candidate? is that going to matter to you? >> so, it matters to me what my union endorses, because my union provides me with work, and directly affects my pocketbook, and my family. >> reporter: if the union doesn't endorse a candidate, and you are left, you know, to decide on your own, first of all, do you think you are definitely going to vote? >> i am definitely going to vote. >> reporter: how do you ultimately think you were going to make that decision? >> i think i will still be conflicted in the voting line. >> reporter: so, bitterly a gametime call? >> i think so. >> reporter: is going to matter what your fellow union members are doing? >> it is going to matter, yeah. >> reporter: do you guys talk about it? >> yeah, it is definitely a hot topic. >> reporter: and is there disagreement? >> oh, yeah.

oh, yeah. >> right now, it is pretty black-and-white, what is happening. you know, you go back to where republicans want to make our economy a service economy rather than a manufacturing economy, do your research on that. do it, you know? vote, for christ sakes. people around the country, around the world, don't have an opportunity. look around the economy! we have the chips act going on, here. there is billions and billions of dollars. most of the people in this room are benefiting from biden's chips act deal and they don't even know it, yet. do your research. look at that! christ, pull your head out of your ass. >> needless to say, saginaw county went for trump again this year, trump actually saw an increase in union support nationwide, which ate into kamala harris' overall margins.

and while democratic campaigns often focused on trump's criminal indictments, his position on democracy and his stance on abortion, the union workers i spoke to in those closing weeks before election day made it clear that those were not the issues that would move them at the polls. >> reporter: does anybody have any idea about what is happening in the federal courts, relating to donald trump's -- the january 6th event and what is going on there with trump? wait, let's just -- i'm sorry, i keep coming back to you. so, like, you haven't -- talk to me about your level of interest in the criminal charges, and so forth. >> february 6th? >> reporter: january 6th. >> january 6th. i remember that day. i know he was the standing president. i am not familiar with the charges that have been brought against him for that. i don't -- i'm not following that charge, i know there is multiple court cases going on, but i'm just not familiar with them. >> reporter: i mean, that doesn't sound like it will be a factor in deciding who to vote for.

>> know. >> reporter: when i say january 6th, what you think? >> i remember seeing it on the news, all the riots and stuff, i don't really know what it was about or what happened, though. >> reporter: how did it make you feel when you saw it? >> i don't know. i don't really feel anyway about it. i mean, people showed their emotion, i guess, probably in the wrong way, but it happened. >> reporter: who here has been following the decisions from the supreme court? raise your hand. okay, i am seem like only a handful. who here knows what the dobbs decision is? one person. okay, that's super interesting. what about abortion? is that an issue that you think -- >> i think it is a woman's right, nobody should be able to dictate that, at all. >> reporter: and what you think of trump's position on abortion. >> i think he is anti-, isn't he? >> reporter: yeah. >> you want to control that, but i don't think he has any business even talking about it. >> reporter: what about abortion? having a choice, is that

something that you guys think about? is it something that concerns you? >> i think each side is a little too crazy. they need to meet in the middle. >> reporter: what do you mean by that? >> i think they go one too much one way, and one too much the other way. >> reporter: so, you think democrats are to open ended on abortion, and republicans are too restrictive? >> yes. >> reporter: okay, what about you, something you think about? same concern? something you think about? >> i don't. >> reporter: you don't have to? well -- >> i don't really have an opinion on it. i haven't really looked into it, or even thought about it, really. >> a few weeks later, i visited pennsylvania and traveled all across the state talking to voters. one of my stops was in allentown, where a puerto rican radio personality, victor martinez, hosts one of the areas most popular shows, catering to a state where the hispanic population has nearly tripled since the year 2000. and while we spoke to one of his listeners, one issue kept coming up. latino men were having doubts about voting for a woman. >> kamala harris being a female kind of concerns me, a little

bit. she is still going to get my vote, but it concerns me a little bit, because over the generations, and in years of our lives, i had never really seen a woman, you know -- other than hillary clinton when she went to become president. but, i am concerned a little bit about the fact that, would she be able to run this country, the way a male has, over the decades? would she be able to stand on her own two feet, and deal with the situation? given that we have put in, and so many other president's outside of this country, and other countries, that have such a great relationship with donald trump. >> i just feel that because she is a woman, i feel that she will be treated different, her work is not going to be out as much as a man, for some reason, which i don't think is right, but i feel that is going to

happen a lot. >> reporter: do you have friends that are not going to vote for her because she is a woman? >> i have a lot of coworkers, i have neighbors around here, just because she is a woman, she doesn't know what she's doing. and i am like, i mean -- a woman is a woman, a man is a man. it just doesn't matter, if you want to argue, as long as you know what you are doing, it doesn't really matter, what are you. >> this listener is writing on facebook that the reason why we get those calls, where people are scared, is because they hear from the media, and they hear from trump, how we, as a country, we are. "we are weak." "we are weak." >> reporter: yeah. >> so, that together with a female -- >> reporter: right. >> the perception is that females are weaker than man, so -- >> reporter: that is a fascinating point. >> kamala harris won the latino vote, but 46% of latinos voted

for donald trump this year, a 13% in his support from four years ago. trump's 46% support among latino voters also marked the highest support any republican has gotten with this specific voting block, ever. when we come back, donald trump has talked a big game when it comes to america's role in conflicts around the world, but can he deliver? we will get a reality check, next. check, next. to soothe her with ease. puffs plus lotion is gentle on sensitive skin and locks in moisture to provide soothing relief. a nose in need deserves puffs indeed. america's #1 lotion tissue.

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to a deadly azerbaijan airlines flight earlier this week, 30 people were killed wednesday when a commercial plane traveling to russia crashed on the shores of the caspian sea. now, two u.s. military officials tell nbc news that the russian military official may have misidentified the plane as a ukrainian drone. the mistake would have triggered air defense systems and shot the plane down. so far, russian officials have denied those claims and suggested that ukraine is to blame. this all comes as the kremlin has rejected president-elect trump's calls to end the war in ukraine. fears of a wider war have began to resurface in the middle east, as israel steps up attacks against the around back to iran back to these in yemen. but, he appears to want even more chaos in the form of territorial expansion. this week, trump escalated his threats to retake control of the panama canal, and he doubled down on his desire to

take ownership of greenland, as in greenland. joining me now is david rough cup, foreign policy expert who worked in the clinton administration and now posts "the deep state radio" podcast. great to have you on the program, thanks for joining me in the middle of this holiday season. first of all, donald trump has made a lot of seemingly unhinged promises. we will see what comes of them. but, the idea that he can end the war in ukraine in the first 24 hours in office, first of all, what do you make of that? and what do you make of it, especially in the light of this potential air attack on the azerbaijan commercial aircraft? >> i think trump is already getting a cold dose of reality, that there was never a possibility that he was going to end it in 24 hours. what he was doing when he said he was going to end it, was playing right into putin's hands, because now putin knows

the longer she drags this out, the worse the position is that trump is in, and the only leverage trump has, he has no leverage over putin, is over the ukrainians, so trump can pull support for the ukrainians, but of course europe can support the ukrainians and the ukrainians can pursue this on their own and i think what we are going to end up with is a long, come to get a negotiation in which putin plays a really tough line and says he wants not only all the territory, but he doesn't want ukraine and nato, he doesn't want ukraine as part of the eu. so, i think this is going to go on for months and months, and it is just going to be another one of those promises, like getting mexico to build the wall, that never materializes. >> what you think the potential appointment of tulsi gabbard, who is if not a russian asset, someone who has inclinations toward putin. what you think of her, as head of the office of national intelligence, how that might affect the u.s.-russia relationship under trump? >> well, i mean, it would be a

disaster if she was confirmed for this job. the intelligence community is extremely disturbed by the prospect of somebody who is so close both to putin and also to assad. but, just to take the story that you mentioned, the russians are already putting out a fabricated conspiracy theory story, saying that the shootdown of the plane had to do with the ukrainians. typically, americans debunk such stories, but tulsi gabbard in the past has embraced and promoted such stories, so the idea that you have a kremlin mouthpiece coming into the top intelligence job in the united states, is bad for the u.s., and it is bad for trump. it is bad to have that kind of person as an adviser, because they are promoting lies, they are not promoting the truth. >> i think there are so many things that trump says and does that are confounding, but to

use the week of christmas and the christmas holiday to launch sort of his plans for territorial expansion, retaking the panama canal, going after greenland, and making canada the 51st state, does one of these rise in your mind to the wackiest idea? because they all seem pretty insane. but, secondly, what do you think is behind the new american imperialism, this week in particular? >> i don't know. i think it was something maybe he ate over christmas? i mean, this is cookie. you know, taking over canada, going to war with canada -- that is from a "south park" cartoon. right? this is "south park" level of foreign policy. you know how long denmark has controlled greenland? since the year 1380. okay? they have controlled greenland for 700 years. the united states, even when we built the panama canal, said we were going to promote panamanian independence, and our claims to the canal over the course of the century that we were there, were very weak,

indeed. that is why, ultimately, we signed it away. this is not going to materialize into anything, except alienating our allies and making the president of the united states look like a buffoon. >> yeah, it must have been some christmas ham, i guess, if that is what it led him to. part of me wants to try it, myself. what would happen? david, thank you so much for taking time away from roasting chestnuts over an open fire to join me tonight. i really appreciate your thoughts. >> my pleasure. >> we will be right back. right travel can make you smell kinda funky.

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welcome back to our special two-hour edition of alex wagner tonight. as we go into trump's second term in office. we have to think about things completely different, donald

trump began 2024 as a defendant in four separate criminal cases in which he faced up to 91 felony counts and with them, the potential to end this year, 2024 in prison. instead he's ending the year as the president elect of the united states having avoided almost all accountability while he's also fundamentally changed our nation's legal landscape. this year he became the first former president in u.s. history to be convicted of a crime. he was found guilty of 34 felony counts in the state of new york. now the sentencing in that case has been delayed indefinitely. in georgia trump started the year facing criminal conspiracy charges from a fulton county attorney for his attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election in that state. da willis was removed from the case and while she is appealing that decision the likelihood of her prosecution against trump continuing, the likelihood seems slim.

at the federal level, he began the air with special counsel jack smith prosecuting him for election interference in 2020 and for the mishandling of classified documents after trump left the white house. now, not only has special counsel jack smith dropped both cases but the supreme court has given trump considerably more power than he had before. in the hearing about the federal election interference case before the high court earlier this year, the justices rule the president has immunity from criminal prosecution for all official acts. that means trump really could shoot someone on fifth avenue and maybe get away with it as long as he could reasonably claim that it was an official act. trump still faces a number of civil cases and financial penalties but at least, criminally, he appears to have emerged from this you're stronger than ever. as we head into 2025, as trump is openly threatening retribution against his perceived enemies, how should we be thinking about a nation's

legal system? where do things stand now? joining me now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney from the northern district of alabama, kristi greenberg of former federal prosecutor serving in the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of new york. thank you for being here with me. i can't believe my fortunate having all of you to talk about this. joyce, let me begin with you. in terms of how we should think about the federal court and what they did in their decision around the trumpet election election interference case. should we be led to believe the prosecution of presidents or ex- presidents is impossible at a federal level at this point? >> so, i think we have to sit at the table, first , donald trump did to the courts what he's done consistently. he's an institution destroyer not an institution builder. a problem that we face in the courts and how they might

interact in the trump 2.0 presidency is the fact he's managed to undercut public confidence within the court. as i think of that, i think increasingly our confidence in the courts, although in many ways it has been shaken, we shouldn't abandon it. what we should do is reject the notion that he's immune from all accountability. the supreme court made it clear he won't face criminal charges for any conduct he engages in that is at least arguably official. as you point out, there are a range of civil cases in effect. there is a defamation judgment against him. and although he really banks on the notion that he is above the law, i think it is up to us to hold the line and remind ourselves that he isn't. >> melissa, i very much appreciate joyce's reminder we shouldn't give up on the judiciary. how are you thinking about the

length of line trump has to play with legally speaking given the courts recent ruling or recent opinion and you know, the sort of lawlessness, or the attitude of lawlessness that trump brings with him into office in the second term? >> i want to emphasize something joyce said. i don't think we can lose faith in the courts, certainly the courts are stacked in certain ways and it's likely the work of donald trump who's really been active in during his first presidency. donald trump himself believes in courts. he is a defendant certainly in a number of criminal cases. he's a defendant in civil cases but he's also a plaintiff in a number of cases. he has plans to bring suit against those he said have defamed him. we should take solace in the fact at least one person here,

donald trump, believes the system could work at least in someone's favor. we should try to make the system work for everyone. in terms of presidential immunity, it's no secret the supreme court stacked the deck in his favor. in favor of any president coming after him. the line here really is what is the difference between official and unofficial conduct? the supreme court in other cases has said sometimes it's difficult to tell with official and not official what is official and not official. in that way it will be harder to hold him terminally accountable. we see many of those cases go away but on the civil side the court has said in many rulings you could continue to have civil litigation against sitting president so long as the litigation doesn't impose on the activities of the

presidential office. we saw bill clinton sit for a deposition. it's likely that in some of these civil cases he will be an active plaintiff, he will continue to be an active defendant. i don't think we should lose in faith with the legal system. again, we ought to be straightforward about the challenges we face here. but this could be an avenue moving forward. >> to that end about how the courts could hold him accountable or what could be done, it's not just donald trump who would be an actor here. as it was in any of the cases he would be facing there were others associated with him who have indeed faced accountability. i would note, it's not a federal case, but rui giuliani rudy giuliani will be held in court today. he owes $148 million and hasn't turned over his assets. he can't practice law in new york. what do you think will happen there and what message does this send to other potential trump allies and stooges he might want to carry more out of his unlawful plans?

>> as you said, i think there's real fear for the enablers because the supreme court did nothing to protect them in factoring in oral arguments that had several justices talking about, well, we could give immunity to the president because there's these other presidents, they would be helping him. there wouldn't be consequences so that would be a way to deter presidents from acting. i don't think that the argument holds any water but it's when they seem to be drawing some kind of line in their arguments about the fact that these enablers could be held accountability. yes, i don't think we will see this in georgia but there are other actions. in arizona, michigan, wisconsin with respect to the fake electors. you do have really giuliani who defamed election workers in georgia and has been held

accountable for that. despite the fact that in many of these courts he's continued to act to be in what seems to me to be contempt of the judges. i think the judges seem to be getting tired of it and i have hope in 2025 they will hold his feet to the fire if he does not continue -- if he doesn't actually abide by the rulings and turnover their assets and abide by the court's orders. so i think that he is in for a lot of trouble. he has been disbarred from the practice of law in two states so i don't see him stepping foot into a courtroom anytime soon other than as a defendant. >> to that end about how the enablers are being held accountable, joyce, we know bonnie willis has taken off of the case that she prosecuted in georgia but it's not just trump but he and 14 of his allies and he's appealing that ruling. what do you think will happen there, joyce? it's a vast criminal conspiracy

case which involves a number of people. how do you see the road ahead in the state of georgia? >> this is a case that is proceeding in georgia state courts and not federal court. the dynamics are a little bit different . it's very likely that the georgia supreme court will affirm the ruling removing willis from the case. if that happens, this case will then be reassigned to another georgia prosecutor. there's a little bit of a precedent for this early on in the case, one of the defendants was peeled off because willis had a conflict of interest with prosecuting him. that case was reassigned to another prosecutor it was essentially a deathknell for that case. that could well be the fate for this entire matter but there is a little bit of hope in the landscape. some of the defendants who previously pled guilty try to reverse their guilty pleas after this entire sort of scenario shook out. the trial

judge told them absolutely not guilty pleas are final. that's an important principle in the criminal justice system. for very good reason they are permitted to relitigate a guilty plea after entering it. those pleas have held up. there are other criminal cases were trump is not a defendant in states across the country were fake electors schemes were executed. something we often lose sight of when cases like this go to trial or when they proceed to a guilty plea, much of the evidence comes forward. it's a very public reminder whether trump is involved or not, of his complicity in these matters. >> when you talk about him

specifically, how much stock do you put in the civil cases against donald trump? he faces eight civil lawsuits from the january 6 attack and faces defamation charges from one of the central park five, the exonerated five after he claimed during presidential debate that they had killed someone. do you think those could proceed, though he's processes and president what's your level of optimism that he will face some level accountability on a civil level? >> we know presidents can be held liable in civil lawsuits even while they are serving in the presidency. we know this from clinton versus jones. a supreme court case from 1996. presidents have participated in civil lawsuits. bill clinton, for example, donald trump during part of his time as president, he was involved in a suit. it's entirely possible for the president to participate as a litigant in a civil suit. does this mean donald trump as a litigant won't try to gum up the works? that is what litigation is. that's the whole strategy, to

kind of run out the clock. there have been some assertive officials. letitia james in new york, the civil fraud case keeping those things moving. the president will certainly make it more challenging for these things to move in an orderly fashion but this would be an absolute impediment. there will be an avenue for some kind of accountability from the civil lawsuits but it might take slightly longer than we had seen in the circumstances where he was not president and a litigant. >> it ain't over, in short. it ain't over by a long shot. thank you so much for spending your holiday season with us. we have more to get to this hour including the supreme court's ongoing ethics problems as we get yet more reporting about more undisclosed travel for justice clarence thomas paid for by a billionaire. that's next. that's next.

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democrats on the senate judiciary committee dropped an interesting chestnut ahead of the holidays. we have reporting on two more undisclosed trips gifted to justice clarence thomas by the texas billionaire harlan crow. after a 20 month investigation into ethics practices at the supreme court, democrats on the committee released a 93 page report with 800 pages of supporting documents. in addition to the trips that have been made public, two new trips were revealed. conservative mega donor harlan crowed flu justice thomas in 2021 and hosted him on his yacht after dividing him with a private flight from dc to new jersey. thomas didn't disclose these trips even after resubmitting some of his financial forms. the senate judiciary committee learned about them after threatening to subpoena harlan crow. back with me is marissa marie. we are joined by mark joseph stern, the senior writer for sleet magazine. it's great to have you both here. mark and melissa, we've been talking about harlan crow.

it's a comedy that won't end. i have to ask, mark, the fact that justice thomas didn't feel the need to disclose these after he had to resubmit his financial disclosure forms, what does this tell you about the code of ethics from the supreme court. is anything ever going to change here? >> this tells me the alleged code of ethics doesn't really exist for all intents and purposes. it's a series of suggestions that couldn't even be rounded up to a true code . justice thomas will continue to flout it with impunity unless and until it's given real teeth. there's a reason why justice alina kagan did an election tour where she said we should have an enforceable ethics code. she shows the problem of putting out the suggestions saying good luck, hope you follow it. i have to say, what bothers me the most about the situation in particular is that justice thomas really shows no mercy for litigants who break the law for criminal defendants

especially turkey holds them to the very tightest interpretation of the letter of the law. yet, when he himself breaks the law as he did by failing to disclose all of these gifts and presents, and trips, he declares himself to be totally innocent. to be blameless. he's given a do over and as the judiciary committee revealed, he still breaks the law and withhold information about two trips that under federal statute he was required to disclose and i guess to him it's no big deal. so we hear a lot about a two track justice system. there's one going on in his own mind where one class of people, indigent criminal defendants get no mercy but he, as well as rich powerful people like him,

maybe even donald trump as well, they get an endless series of do overs or mulligans because they must've acted with good intent. >> it says something as we look at the broader landscape about the incoming administration about the power of billionaires. the outgoing chair of the judiciary committee says weather failing to disclose lavish gifts or failing to recuse cases from apparent conflicts of interest it's clear the justices are losing the trust of the american people at the hands of a gaggle of fawning billionaires. you've got elon musk, the executive branch. harlan crow in the judicial branch. untold billionaires working their way into the legislative branch. give me your opinion on this sort of, i won't call it officially talk or see but this is deeply problematic on a number of levels looking at the amount of money at the outside influence this could buy. >> certainly an oligarchy . this is basically a new gilded age that we are living in and we've seen the effects of it. the supreme court overturned the chevron doctrine last year.

there's been reporting from the new york times making it clear that was a multiyear project funded by the conservative legal movement and the cook brothers network which has an interest in the deregulation for the ministry of state. administrative agencies issue regulations. that often make it more costly for corporations to run because the regulations make it safer for the consumers. but more expensive corporations to make their product. it's not a surprise the administrative state is under assault. this is a real problem for the oligarchs. the corporations, it's no surprise the american people are losing faith in the court when they see these cozy relationships between the supreme court justices and these oligarchs who sometimes function, apparently as emotional support billionaires. i think the really important point is that putting pressure, examining this, being public about this all the time does

work. last month sitting at the supreme court, justice neil gore search recused himself because of a report showing he has close ties with one of the people who filed the debrief in the court. that doesn't happen unless there is transparency in reporting and journalists who are willing to hold the courts feet to the fire so when people say that you are making it hard for the justices or making things difficult for the judiciary. we are making it difficult for the judiciary we are making it more transparent for justice. >> melissa . second of all mark, trump will be able to appoint new justices. how many more? i think joe biden at last count had been the a number of appointees donald trump, the number of judicial appointment that donald trump made in his

by one. what's your expectation for the trump administration harmed how aggressively they will see the judiciary in the sort of class of judges we are talking about in terms of filling those seats given how the trump administration and conservatives had manipulated the federal courts to get federal conservative legislation either enacted or have managed to unwind liberal protections at the state level. >> we are about to see the most extreme partisan slate of nominees within history. the reason is because trump experimented with appointing them to the bench and his first term. they donned their robes and engaged in the exact egregious misconduct and outrageous decision-making that progressives warned about in the public saw fit to give donald trump another term. i fear, as usual, the public is in drawing the correct lines of

accountability between these outrageous decisions from the lower courts and the president who appointed the judges making those decisions. so if you are trump and the appointees and advisors who are going to select these judges, you are thinking, i got away with it. i put the worst people on the bench. 33-year-old psychopaths on the bench. the people of this country gave me another term. the question will be how low could he go? with 53 republicans in the senate. i think the bar is really on the floor. so seriously, i've got to say, this will be worse than the first term. the people who will populate the benches in the lower courts will be judges in name only. they will emerge with an agenda and quickly execute it. after

trump is gone they will remain for decades standing in the way of every democratic president and every democratic congress that exists over the next 40 to 50 years unless future democrats decide to do something about it and perform these courts so it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. democrats, he said expanding the supreme court or imposing a code of ethics or other reforms, they are going to see just how bad the situation could get because they decided to unilaterally disarm and reject the kind of hardball that mitch mcconnell and donald trump perfected and we will suffer those consequences. >> well, okay, mark joseph stern with the heavy talk. thank you both for joining. it's a crazy time of year and i appreciate your wisdom and thoughts. thank you, my friends. coming up, the democratic party might trying to figure out where it went wong wrong in 2024. is the primary underway? a special report of what happens to the most vulnerable among us when washington decides to shift policy.

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donald trump's reentry into the white house is raising serious questions about both immigration and reproductive rights policy. last talked about, these two complex issues often overlap. a report by the journal of the

american medical association and of post-rural america, the number of women managing their own medication abortions outside the healthcare system has risen significantly. community-based volunteer networks lead the way in providing these women their needed medication. some of these networks based in mexico ship abortion medication for free to women in the u.s. trying to bypass their states harsh abortion ban. along the way they have encountered a secondary reality, the troubling rise in sexual violence against migrant women on the mexican side of the southern u.s. border leading to even more unwanted pregnancies and in post-roe america. paulo ramose investigated this earlier this year. this is her special report. >> reporter: we are about to talk to an asylum seeker who was assaulted on a border town and had her she was pregnant as

soon as she stepped into texas. the only reason she agreed to talk to us today is because we won't disclose her identity or where we are right now. >> when she left el salvador for the united states, many of her friends cautioned her against it and knew of the harrowing experiences of the women going north. >> at what point after entering texas did you find out you were pregnant? >> valentina found herself in texas, pregnant and alone. planning and abortion.

>> were you aware of the strict abortion laws that are enforced in texas? what did you learn? did you look for clinical help or what did you want? >> the pills she is referring to are combination of the fda approved regimen for medical termination of pregnancy. more than 60% of all abortions performed in the united states are done using these pills but since the supreme court overturned roe v wade in 2022, 14 republican-led states including texas have banned

this medication. valentina found a group that was able to ship the pills to a friends house in a nearby state and at 14 weeks pregnant she found herself packing once more. this time, to carry out a self managed abortion. weeks after she returned to texas, valentina managed to obtain more packs of the pills that she used. inspired of her own structural struggle she decided to break the law to help women in similar situations. >> were you aware what you were doing was illegal? do you have any left right now? are you still thinking about helping other women?

>> valentina says she is no longer providing abortion pills but on the other side of the border, activists are working day and night to fill the void . this is evelyn, a doctor from mexico city whose part of an international network of women helping them to obtain the pills. since the overturn of roe v wade in 2020 too much of that help has been brought into

texas. she asked that her identity be concealed in order to protect the operation. >> how big is the network or how many people are part of it? >> where they contacting you from? >> how many packs are you sending weekly? how do you hide these pills or make sure that no one knows where you are mailing them? >> think many would ask what's in it for you? you aren't doing this for economic reasons so i do you do

this? >> in texas, valentina feels the same way. >> you risk your life and your status, why? >> coming up, highlights from my conversations with stars in the democratic party this year and what is next for the party in 2025 and beyond. stay with us. h us.

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learn more at dexcom.com (dramatic music) time is running out to give a year-end gift like no other- -a gift that can help saint jude children's research hospital save lives. those that donate to st. jude, i hope that you will continue to give. they have done so much for me and my family. please don't wait until the last minute. make a difference by supporting the children of st. jude. please donate now. >> university of maryland global campus allowed me to write my own story. they want you to succeed, and for me, it was a school of opportunity. i feel like i had a support system behind me within the school. they provided me the opportunity to get my degree, as well as to take the full-time job. umgc put me on a path to be successful by giving me credit for my certifications and transferring my prior course credits. umgc supported me and allowed me to achieve my goals. [ music ]

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long been considered presidential contenders. gavin newsom and michigan governor gretchen witmer who've made names for themselves as effective leaders in their respective states and have embraced the fight engaging publicly with critics and those who disagree with them. here are some of the highlights from my conversations with both governors. >> do you feel like you are making a difference? >> i don't know. >> i'm not saying that critically. >> everyone wants to be loved and needs to be loved. this fundamental notion, we are just all human beings. i love and respect people i disagree with. i don't want to talk down to anyone and i want them to know i'm listening as well. i do listen to fox. it is hard.

it's demoralizing sometimes to put the misinformation is next level. you could just be in denial about that or accepted and just say, well you know that's not the world i live in. well there's no leak on your side of our boat. we are all in this together. we have to come to terms. divorce is not an option. we cannot afford that. so getting on those platforms showing to the extent i could respect showing up and asserting myself because i do think we have two disabuse ourselves and that we could win by stating these facts goes to the beginning of the conversation in terms of statistics. we have to get into the zeitgeist of how people are feeling and pushback. we have to get into that bloodstream. >> you are someone who's faced a plot to kidnap and kill you.

you note this in your book. you still, to this day don't understand why your attempt to keep the people of michigan safe resulted in such a vitriolic and angry reaction. i wonder, if not in the case of you know, this part in particular how and why you think the right wing has gotten so incensed, so dangerously violent in its rhetoric around public officials and the notion of coming you know, community and our shared experience and keeping the community safe, what has happened? >> that's what i'm hoping to understand. you know, when i talk about these plotters, i also in the book talk about my favorite thing to do i engage with people. i'm as comfortable in the black church as i am in a bowling alley and yet now with all of the rhetoric and the heat and the threats that have happened, i'm not as comfortable. it's sad but i would like to sit down with one of these

plotters and understand. i think ted lasso is one of the wisest people, he said be curious, not judgmental. i want to understand and i like to ask about what's going on. it's not a rational thing to take up weapons and kill a sitting governor and she told you to wear a mask. what was going on in their lives that i could understand or be a better person or governor to learn? maybe there is something. i like to try. maybe there is something to learn. >> another thing they have in common, owning their mistakes. i asked governor witmer about an incident she wrote about in her womb her memoir. >> i do want to bring up because he wrote this in your book. is it fair to name? >> yes. >> you talked about, a mention, when you are talking about owning your mistakes the sort of lesson you've learned. you acknowledged he made a mistake during the pandemic by violating your own states

restrictions during a gathering at a bar and you make mention to point out california governor gavin newsom made a similar mistake and you drew this contrast in your book. so gavin and i have had that in common. >> you know, i love gavin newsom and i think he's doing a great job and i appreciate the work he's doing on behalf of president biden and vice president harris. he's certainly helped me so i am grateful. i want to point out, we all are human and we make mistakes on occasion. he made a mistake and he owned it and he did this with dignity the right way. i did as well. it was a different circumstance. unfortunately, i violated those restrictions at a dive bar. >> maybe it was more worth it at a dive bar. >> i was making fun of myself

and i think it's important , we are all human beings. the true leaders like avenue some own it and they apologize for it and that's what he did and that's what i did as well so i think that's important. our political leaders aren't perfect or better than us and anyone of them who looks down on people or treats them as though they don't matter or they themselves are flawless are full of it. i think that's why i wanted to share that story and give them a little credit for doing what i think really was the honorable thing to do in this situation. >> coming up i will speak to the atlantic about what democrats are thinking of as they consider the future of their party. stay with us. stay with us. and some lost over 46 pounds. and i'm keeping the weight off. i'm reducing my risk. wegovy® is the only weight-management medicine proven to reduce risk of major cardiovascular events such as death, heart attack, or stroke

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democrats appear to be putting 2024 in their rearview mirror. they are not only regrouping and preparing to be the opposition force in washington but they have also begun to consider the prospects for 2028. joining me now is mark leibovich, the staff writer at the atlantic. mark, a pleasure to have you here in the middle of the holiday season. thank you, my friend, in advance. before the segment started we were playing some of the greatest hits real in my interviews with gavin newsom and gretchen witmer. i wonder as democrats think the ticket in 2028, what their posture in the 2024 election has told you or tells you about their ambitions potentially in the 2028 election? >> what was interesting, i watched the clip and i watched these segments at home so i'm well prepared but clearly, what was interesting of both segments is that both avenue

some and witmer in their own ways have confronted the other side indirect or unwanted ways in the course of governor witmer. gavin newsom has talked about how important it is to talk on the other side and witmer has done the same. what's interesting before these interviews is that they occurred before the election. it was interesting to hear witmer say i admire the work he's done on behalf of president biden. it was during a different period. so since the election there's been, i wouldn't say a retrenchment, but certainly people are trying to find out where they are on this. clearly both are probably in their last terms as governor. i think they are probably both going to be seen as candidates and they're trying to figure

out what the message is going to be. >> they both resolutely didn't want the job of kamala harris's running mate. not that it was offered to them but they came out clearly as being uninterested, right? i wonder if you read anything into that? >> i read into it saying they probably weren't going to get it anyway. so there is that. listen, i think, i don't know the specifics about who actually turned down offers or real interest in kamala harris as the running mate position but other way going forward certainly those two will be part of the conversation. there's a whole other generation of people. some we met not even think of now could be front and center in a free you years, democrats are trying to figure out -- they're trying to get over the shock of the election and the transition and the shock left and right. also figuring out what they want to do is a party and who will be leading it. >> as we mentioned kamala harris, the outgoing vice president, politico is reporting privately the vice

president has instructed visors and alleys to keep her options open weather for a possible 2028 presidential run or to run for governor in her home state of california in two years. what you make of that? >> you know, i think it's a rule of thumb that politicians want to keep their options open. i would think, i think kamala harris didn't run a bad race at all. president biden put her in a tough position. whether it's the stain of being defeated by donald trump in the most recent election, would disqualify her from running again, i think she clearly wants to be part of the conversation when she leaves washington in january. i think we will see what she does. i think governor might be a more realistic office for her to run for but we will see. >> you are a creature of washington and i don't say that in a derogatory fashion that you know, as you think of where the party is headed, i wonder how much you read into these

house battles for ranking committee chairs. gerry connolly, an older representative from virginia, he argues he made it a blue state. by a healthy margin i think a 131 votes to 84, do you read anything into that about the democrats appetite for the next generation or their appetite for a kind of more of a partisan brawl as it were? >> i think in cases like this, the congressional elections, it's about personal relationships and about the quirk of the caucus. gerry connolly winning for this position is sort of a setback for aoc but i don't get matters. i think she will be a higher profile member of congress and possibly more if she decides to run for a higher office over the next few years including possibly president so we will see. you could see the insurgents

who was jamie raskin beat jerry nadler so there's two tracks working on that right now. you've got the governors and possible presidential candidates then you have the legislative people who will be pretty visible going forward as the vocal minority party but donald trump is going to make them very visible and the spread is very-very hard at this point. >> it's a whole new washington ahead and i'm sure you'll have lots to say about it. mark leibovich thank you for spending the closing hours of our holiday show with me tonight. i appreciate you my friend. happy new year. that's our show for tonight. have a great evening and that is our show for tonight. have a great evening, and thank you, again, for spending a little of your holiday season with us. we appreciate you. we appreciate you. ♪♪ hey, there, everyone, welcome to this