♪♪ good morning. it's saturday, december 28th. we have a lot to talk about. today marks 23 days until the second inauguration of donald trump. that also means we are just 23 days away from the potential long list of executive orders and other actions trump is planning for day one. a top trump ally says there will

be a push to make a huge early show and assert himself to show his campaign promises were not hollow. a main focus of trump's first day is expected to be illegal immigration. trump is expected to launch the biggest deportation program in history. he said he can use the national guard and active military personnel to assist in his goals. a trump donor says trump, quote, won big on the idea that cracking down on illegal immigration is not just a priority, but the priority. another trump ally said that the focus is on how to expedite deportation through executive order, adding, quote, this is our focus, this is what we ran on, it will be swift. trump is expected to sign up to five executive orders aimed at dealing immigration alone.

those are just a handful of actions trump has promised for his opening act. axios has compiled this sample of his promises which include everything from ending war in ukraine to vaccine mandates to fracking to restoring his travel ban to sanctioning iran. the list just gets longer and goes on. there are two people who tell nbc news that trump is preparing on day one to over turn specifi policies put in place by president biden and he plans to restrict service members' access to gender affirming care and abortion. trump is going to enact these changes at a pace, quote, like nothing you've seen in history. i don't think all of us are taking all of that the way the

official may have meant it. the question is will trump succeed in getting all of this done on day one? the answer is probably not. but this is likely going to be an easier road for the former and soon-to-be president. he has experience in office now. he also has a republican majority in both chambers of congress. more importantly, he's got think tanks including the america first policy institute, and they have been reportedly spending years drafting policies for trump to put in place upon his return. those policies include drafting proposed executive orders. two people close to trump's team have told nbc news the transition is, quote, unquote, sorting through scores of these proposed orders. joining me to talk about all of this is jonathan alter, a contributing writer for "the new york times" as well as a presidential historian. he is the author of multiple

books including "american reckoning." as well as hugo lowell who is host of the podcast "highly conflicted." hugo, these are a dozen plus day one promises. which can trump actually do and what's the most important? >> the most important is definitely immigration, as you said, because that has been the campaign promise. i also think it's going to be the most difficult of his priorities, because he faces roadblocks at every turn. if he wants to start mass deportations he needs the cooperation of states and cities, and it's not clear he will get that. he's going to run into judges not so favorable to him. the first administration they bungled the muslim ban and

didn't get the signoff of the department of justice, and the whole thing kind of cratered. the president does have a lot of power, particularly with a republican- republican-leaning supreme court and doj and trump's white house council that take this executive power to mean trump has free rein over a lot of areas. there are a lot of stuff that he can do by executive order, and i think you're going to see that on day one. >> people are talking about the idea that this presidency may look unlike anything we've seen before in history. jonathan, what i'm wondering is what do the success metrics look

like for a successful donald trump part two? are we looking at something that can be judged just by the economy? >> well, i think you have to distinguish between history, the long view, and journalism, which is the short and middle-term view. in the short and middle term i think he'll be held to account for all sorts of campaign promises. if he is not successful in lowering prices, as he promised he would do, and if his tariffs and other policies contribute to renewed inflation, he will be judged very harshly on that. but remember he's not a candidate for reelection. he becomes a lame duck on january 20th. i know people talk about him getting around the 22nd amendment and being in office forever. that's not going to happen.

his political power will start to ooze out of him, and a lot of the accountability will be reflected first in the virginia and new jersey gubernatorial elections this coming year and then in the 2026 midterms. but if he ends up governoring with a billionaire boys club -- he's already appointed 12 billionaires -- that's not what he promised. he promised to look out for middle class working families. and if his policies include deep cuts to very popular programs or other things that don't really seem to resemble the populace promises that he made during the campaign, his popularity is going to suffer. i do think that immigration is going to be the huge issue right out of the gate. and it's quite possible that he will challenge birthright

citizenship and say if you're born here, it doesn't automatically make you a citizen. this is a challenge to the 14th amendment. it will go quite quickly to the u.s. supreme court. i don't think trump's chances there are actually very good on this issue, but he's clearly going to test it. also, i'm quite sure that either on day one or early in his administration, he's going to sign an executive order declaring basically a national emergency at the border, which gives him a whole set of other powers to send more troops to the border and get around various other impediments that hugo just described. so these emergency powers, which are quite chilling in terms of our republic, are something that we're all going to have to contend with. >> to say the least. jonathan, you mentioned the

notion of journalism being the medium to short-term view. hugo, you were someone who has a journalist has had -- i don't want to say unfettered, but pretty significant access in terms of sources around team trump, camp trump throughout that administration and the past four years. how much as much as we have discussed immigration with respect to media and some of the things kash patel has talked about in terms of going after media, how concerned early on should people in the media industry be about a new donald trump? >> it's tricky. you know, trump and kash patel both have their list of perceived enemies. i don't think it should come as any surprise to anyone if they start moving and pursuing his political enemies. that being said, i think media is pretty low on that list compared to a lot of other

political targets he has. you're talking about people like special counsel jack smith, members of the january 6th committee, witnesses to the january 6th committee, people perceived to be disloyal and didn't come to bat for him. they're already talking about people who didn't support him as 2021 to 2024 as they've been cut out of the fold, there's no way they're coming back into trump world. i think my concerns for the media are more meta or kind of broad speaking. a lot of media executives as they confront the next admin, we have a lot of mergers and acquisitions deals coming down the pipeline, whether it's discovery or cnn or even disney which owns abc news and espn and they want to get through this

period. this is something he has promised. there will be less regulatory scrutiny on companies. they want to get through this. so you're already seeing executives go down to mar-a-lago and kiss the ring as it were. that's the concern i have, when the media landscape looks like this and you have executives at these parent ompanies wanting to do deals, will that chill effect come down the line to news organizations? i don't think individual news reporters are going to have any qualms about holding the incoming president to account, but i do wonder about the general structural shifts taking place in the media landscape. >> for every donald trump i'm going to build a wall and have mexico pay for it, there's also i'm going to unravel roe, meaning there are some promises

he keeps and some that he doesn't. what's the likelihood we're going to see that, or do you expect it's going to be more on one side than the other. >> no. it will continue to be a mix. certain things we know are going to happen. he's going to pardon at least some of the january 6th insurrectionists perhaps as soon as his first day. he's going to crack down on trans rights, first in the government and then by using the control washington has over elementary, secondary and higher education to make it much harder, for instance, on trans athletes at the high school and college level. that will happen. tariffs of some kind will happen, although probably not as extensive as he promised. so this is going to be a mix. as hugo indicated, there are a lot of ways of fighting back,

but it depends on ordinary people to organize against oligarchy. this is what we are headed for. it's not dictatorship. it's oligarchy, government by the rich. we need to get a sense in the days ahead of whether democrats, independents and even some anti-trump republicans are willing to organize against this. it doesn't mean massive resistance. you have to pick your battles, but democrats have a lot of tools available to them. this is going to be a struggle between his critics and the administration for the next four years. >> jonathan alt and hugo lowell, thank you both for being here. still ahead, a major rift has emerged over donald trump supporters and foreign workers. plus the velshi banned book

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♪♪ now a quick update on the investigation into the deadly plane crash in kazakhstan that killed 38 people on board. according to two american military officials, the u.s. has intelligence indicating that russia may have misidentified the passenger plane and shot it down with an air defense system. according to the officials, the russians believed it to be a drone due to its irregular flight pattern and altitude. just hours ago the kremlin said vladimir putin spoke to the president of azerbaijan on the phone and apologized for what he called, quote, a tragic incident. however, putin stopped short of taking responsibility. this story is still developing and we'll bring you updates as they become available. still ahead, maga divided.

the camp is split between immigration hardliners and tech leaders who say they need skilled foreign workers. we'll have that when we come back on "velshi." come back on "velshi. ah, this one lets me adjust the bass. add more guitar. maybe some drums. wow, so many choices. yeah. like schwab. i can get full-service wealth management, advice, invest on my own, and trade on thinkorswim. you know carl is the only frontman you need... oh i gotta take this carl, it's schwab. ♪ schwaaaab! ♪ have a choice in how you invest with schwab. narrator: at this very moment, children at st. jude are fighting to survive. with a gift right now, you can join the battle to save lives. katy: without saint jude, i don't know where we would be. can we see snuggles? they have given children with cancer, like my winston, a chance. christine: she has neuroblastoma and it has spread to her liver.

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♪♪ trouble in maga paradise. there is a storm brewing in trump world over a very specific type of visa, the h1b visa, a particular type of work visa that's reserved for highly skilled employees from other countries. currently there's a hard cap of 85,000 new h1b visas that can be issued every year. a silicon valley venture capitalist would serve as his advisor. he's advocating for these visas

for highly skilled workers. magas want a hardline approach to all forms of immigration. but tech entrepreneurs came out in support of h1b visas. their argument angered anti-immigration trump supporters even more. elon musk was one of them. he showed his support saying companies need these skilled workers, writing, the number of people who are super talented engineers and super motivated in the u.s. is far too low. then vivek ramaswamy musk's cochair of the incoming department of government efficiency blames the, quote, laziness and american culture for the need for foreign tech workers. the real story here is two of the would be maga darlings have attacked the myth of american

exceptionalism. the h1b system is widely known to be misused. visa holders can only work for employers who sponsor them, so workers have very little bargaining power. despite rules that they are paid a similar wage to americans in comparable positions, there are studies from the economic policy institute that show h1b visa holders are often underpate. what's more, these visas are seen by many to afford a disproportionate degree of access to certain groups to immigration channels at the exclusion of others. this rift on the right could preview a rift in trump world over immigration and its impact on diversity in the workplace. at the same time figures like musk and ramaswamy are touting

h1b visas, trump says he aimed to challenge policies on diversity, equity and inclusion. her highlights include ing corporations who use policies to discriminate against their workers. some of the country's biggest employers are backing out of their dei commitments. walmart announced last month it would roll back a slew of dei policies, saying it would no longer give priority to women and minority-owned suppliers. it will not renew its commitment to funding a racial equity center it set up in 2020, and it also is going to review grants previously given to pride

events. john deere, tractor supply and lowe's all said they'd be rolling back certain dei policies this year as well following pressure campaigns from conservative activists. joining me to make sure of this is dr. winfield. it's good to have you again. are we looking at a sign that these corporations are complying without the mandate in advance? >> i think one of the challenges with implementing these types of programs or rather with implementing this type of policy is that many companies preemptively step out ahead of where they think these policies are going to go. these are steps these companies are choosing to take because they are perceiving this is where legislation and policy is going to go. the real disadvantage is that this undermines companies' abilities to thrive because it undermines their ability to

commit to all the workers in their employee. >> doctor, myth or fact, the repercussions from removing dei initiatives are outweighed by the benefits of keeping them? >> i would very much say fact. i think that the repercussions of removing these policies, the benefits are minimal at best. maybe the benefits are that they signal to the incoming administration that these companies are willing to be supportive of their agenda. g again, when we think about the consequences of these policies and the fact -- when we think about the consequences of retracting these policies and the fact that they undermine companies' bottom lines, that they undermine companies' ability to really thrive and make sure their workers are able to participate fully and completely in the process. that's not graets from the

worker perspective but from the companies' big picture perspective. >> i don't want to be funny on a saturday, but i'm going to do some alliteration here. is this about policy, profits or principle? >> i would say it's more like policy. i don't know if i can match your alliteration on a saturday morning. we've seen a lot of companies change their approach over the last four years and take a specific stance around diversity and addressing systemic racism in 2020. that stance has changed markedly over the last four years. that indicates this isn't a formally held principle or a principle committed to diversity, equity and inclusion. we also know it's not a profit-based decision. companies that are more committed to diversity see more returns, innovation and profits.

what that leads me to deal with by the benefit of exclusion is this has to be related to policy and the idea this is where policies are going and it's more advantageous to get out in front of where these policies are going at this stage. >> i want to dive into this visa issue. can you talk about the ethnic nepotism some are claiming the h-1b visas create ? >> the implication is certainly that there are some underrepresented groups getting an advantage by virtue of the h-1b visa. what's more complicated is we know even with the h-1b visa in place, there still exists forms of discrimination for workers who are part of that process. you talked about in your opening segment about how there's still

the prospect of pay differentials and wage gaps for those workers. we also know that workers known to be culturally different from the hiring group are often at a disadvantage from those who seem, quote, more american, and more likely to fit into the company culture. even though there are oups benefitting unfairly through the visa program, we know the group has the potential to maintain disparities. >> we've seen what i like to call this idealogical not being tied on one hand in maga world with respect to elon musk and vivek ramaswamy and their position on h-1b visas as well as the hardline trump folks who are completely anti-immigration. where does this shake out for donald trump, who has talked about putting america first with respect to innovation and industry, but also wanting to keep companies happy who benefit

from the knowledge and innovation provided from people who are h-1b recipients? >> right. well, it creates a paradox, right? it creates a bit of a rock and a hard place. if you follow the research and the data to do the things that lead to more innovation and growth and development. but that doesn't mean necessarily having this hard line against immigrants and immigration. that's not how we see growth happening. i think the opportunity is to reconsider and revisit how companies make a lot of decisions about hiring and advancement, because these are the places where we start to see discriminatory processes in place and these are areas companies can revisit and reconsider the steps they take to make sure all workers have access to the processes for getting hired and how they have opportunities for advancement. those are the areas we see -- we

talked about companies have shown they're a little reluctant to do it at this point. >> many thanks to dr. winfield. she is a diversity professor of sociology at washington university in st. louis, as well as the author of the book "gray areas, how the way we work perpetuates racism and what we can do to fix it." do to fix it." tide pods ultra oxi one ups the cleaning power of liquid. can it one up whatever they're doing? for sure. seriously? one up the power of liquid, one up the toughest stains. any further questions? uh uh! one up the power of liquid with tide pods ultra oxi. i'm not in perfect health but i want to stay in my home. i can do it with help from a prep cook, wardrobe assistant, and stylist. life's good. when you have a plan. ♪♪ what causes a curve down there? who can treat this?

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welcome back. even when i'm not filling in for ali, i love watching "velshi" especially the velshi banned book club. right after the break, we'll play one of the year's fan favorites, "the giver." don't miss ali's conversation about the dystopian children's classic coming up next. the dysts classic coming up next [birds chirping] [dog growls] ♪♪ ♪ who knows what tomorrow ♪ ♪ will bring ♪ [dog barking] ♪ maybe sunshine, ♪ [dog whining] ♪ and maybe rain ♪ ♪ but as for me ♪ ♪ i'll wait and see ♪ [knock at door] ♪ and maybe it'll bring my love to me ♪ ♪ who knows ♪

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to help save lives. would we be happier in a society without the brutality of war, without rain ruining our commute, with babies who slept through the night? what would you be willing to sacrifice for a world like that? what would you give up, your

freedom to choose or individuality? how about creativity or love? the american classic "the giver" by lois lowry, set in a world that values sameness above all else and mercilessly euthanizes those who do not fit it. "the giver" tells the story of jonas who is by all community metrics normal. he dutifully takes a pill every day to suppress any new feelings or urges that come with puberty. that is until his life assignment ceremony. every 12-year-old or as a laborer. jonas is selected to be the community's next receiver of memory, which means jonas will receive every single memory of the collective society from the

former receiver, who is now called "the giver." while an honor, jonas is isolated. it will be he alone who experiences pain, suffering, love and joy. "the giver" grappled with heavy themes including the weight of memory, the freedom of choice, society, governmental control and individualism. "the giver" served as a proof of concept that those weighty themes are not too complex for middle grade readers to understand. lowry doesn't just use what's within the text to convey these themes. she employees her writing style to tell the story too. her style reflects the sterile community, unencumbered dialogue. indeed, precise language is one of the primary means of

psychological control within "the giver." quote, father, mother, jonas asked tentatively after the evening meal, i have a question i want to ask you. what is it, jonas, his father asked? he made himself say the words, though he felt flushed with embarrassment. do you love me? there was an awkward silence for a moment. then father gave a little chuckle. jonas, you of all people, precision of language please! what do you mean, jonas asked? amusement was not at all what he anticipated. your father means you used a very generalized world so meaningless that it has become almost obsolete, his mother explained carefully. jonas stared at them. meaning less? he had never felt anything as

meaningful as the memory. our community can't function if we don't use precise language. lowry's community has hyper-specific vocabulary. the words are similar enough to language we use in real life to maintain the pace of the story. newborn babies are new births. sexual urges are stirrings. the result is an unsettlingly valley effect. we know these words and ideas, but we know they're not the same. as jonas begins to understand the power of emotion and memory, the writing becomes more vivid and more expressive. the reader does not truly begin to understand the lack of it until these moments. the very topics that make "the giver" such a critical read are the same reasons it has topped the american library association's most banned book list year after year.

while infanticide, suicide and euthanasia are central to the plot of the book, the way "the giver" handles these topics are what makes it a classic. it isn't bloody or gratuitous. it is quiet and introspective. the reader comes to the conclusion that our differences are our greatest strengths and the darkest parts of humanity are needed to make way for the most beautiful. "the giver" is one of those rare works of literature that unites american school children. it is not hyperbolic to say that "the giver" has become one of the most assigned contemporary works ever. it has become a rite of pass age for middle readers who begin to discover their own humanity and place in this world. after the break i'm joined by lois lowry. ♪♪ ♪ [♪♪]

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today's meaning of the velshi banned book club is now in session. i'm thrilled to be joined by a true literary legend lois lowry. she's an award-winning author of "the giver." thank you and welcome to the velshi banned book club. >> thank you. i love the description of me as a living legend.

[ laughter ] >> you absolutely are. you know, after having been introduced since 1993, we've got to get creative in how we do it, so we hope we did some justice to it, because this one is a test. this is like interviewing margaret atwood on "the handmaid's tale." i mentioned in the introduction that the book "the giver" is centrally about the power of choice and of individual freedom. that is, in my opinion, more relevant now than it was when you wrote the book. >> i was just going to say the same thing. every year it seems more and more relevant. you mentioned kids in schools here having all of them read it usually in eighth grade. excuse me, i have a cold. it's in 32 other languages. i've talked to kids around the world, even in iran, kathmandu,

romania, thailand, and they all react to this book and they all want to know how can we keep this from happening. >> yeah. >> of course, i tell them, you're the generation that's going to make that determination. >> yeah. let's talk about how do we keep this from happening. i want to read from the book about one part of society in the giver. they are referred to as the birth mothers. i think new children are so cute, lily sighed. i hope i get assigned to be a birth mother. lily, don't say that. there's very little honor in that assignment. i was talking to tasha around the corner. she told me birth mothers get wonderful food and they have a very gentle exercise periods and most of the time they play games and amuse themselves while they're waiting. i think i'd like that, lily said

petulantly. three births, that's all. after that they are laborers for the rest of their lives before they enter the house of the old. is that what you want, lily? we've had margaret atwood on about "the handmaid's tale" literally days before the fall of roe v. wade. this concept of reproduction and forced birth is central to your dystopian myth. >> and yet i tried to seduce the reader -- that's the role of the writer, of course, seduction -- into believing this would be a wonderful, safe, comfortable world. it has, as you pointed out, no crime, no poverty, no discrimination, no divorce, no sexism, no war. and then only gradually by the use of passages like the one you

just read does the reader realize that terrible compromises have been made. i haven't thought about it until you chose that particular passage, but of course the role of women is incremental, is entangled to the book. incidentally, there are three more books that follow "the giver." in the final one, the main character is the young woman who was a birth mother. so you get to find out what happens to some of them. >> look, all books are banned for the same boring reasons all the time, but one of them is that this is too much for kids, this is too much for them to understand. tell me how you process that, because you really are dealing with concepts that are severe and serious and increasingly potentially real. how do you address the idea that eighth graders are prepared to deal with the heaviness and severity of the concepts?

>> of course, i'm -- [ indiscernible ] the kids are there, and in between are teachers and librarians and parents. those are often the ones with whom the kids interact and discuss this book. that's where the important stuff takes place, i think, in those discussions. i tried to write it as an adventure story, and it is that. i was surprised when almost immediately after its publication in 1993 the reaction was so enormous. and on both sides of the spectrum. for example, in one week -- this happened in 1995 -- i could identify the date because of other things that were going on, but in one week i got a letter handwritten from a woman who was so outraged that you could almost see it in her handwriting as if her hand had been shaking.

the first line of her letter was "jesus would be ashamed of you". >> wow. >> the same week i got a letter from a monk in a monastery who explained that trappists are a silent order that they are read aloud to at mealtime, and "the giver" had been read loud to them. >> wow. >> there's a better wow coming up. he said they voted to place it in the category of sacred text. >> wow. you're right, that's a bigger wow. one of the things in this society in "the giver" is that society is governed by the idea that sameness is the most important thing. children are taught not to point out flaws or differences. tell me a little bit about this. >> it's one of the reasons in this comfortable, safe community

there's no discrimination. you only realize after a little while everybody's the same, they're all the same color, there's no racism. how could there be? but in making that choice -- and we don't know how that came about in previous decades, but in making that choice, the community, the population, the government had let go, had rescinded all of the richness that diversity gives to our lives. everything that they have done has been a choice that has been a sacrifice and a terrible compromise. and, of course, it's the young boy who comes to realize that. when people object to the book and try to ban the book, they're kind of caught because there's no explicit sex or violence, and so they take out of context small things that they think they might find objectionable.

but i think what they're really objecting to -- and they don't know this, but it's pervasive within their reading, is that a young person has perceived the hypocrisy and corruption of the governance of the generation that has created their world. of course, that's very relevant today. >> that's increasingly relevant today. when i said all books are banned for the same few stupid reasons, that's one of them, right? books that allow us to see the truth of what might be happening, especially in terms of control, is one of the key reasons. lois, it's a real honor to have you here on the velshi banned book club. thank you. the award-winning author of "the giver" lois lowry. >> i'm pleased you've taken so seriously. it's such a dangerous time. >> one day we will drop the banned from the name. it will just be the book club.

thank you, my friend. that's all for me. thanks for watching "velshi" on msnbc. i'm charles coleman jr. happy kwanzaa, y'all. stay right where you are. kwanzal stay right where you are this is the katie phang show, live from telemundo studios in miami, florida. musk versus maga. elon musk blasting some maga supporters as consempable fools on the platform formerly known as twitter. could this cause a breakup between trump and musk? and supreme court justice clarence thomas facing fresh scrutiny after a senate report reveals m