but by now, she was cooked. perhaps her last ray of hope for freedom came in a petition to the supreme court of the united states, but her case was denied. and so dalia dippolito, the real housewife of boynton beach, who became a worldwide reality tv sensation, is now simply florida inmate w42222. yes, really. that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm andrea canning. thanks for watching. ♪ it's christmastime ♪♪ good morning and welcome to a special holiday edition of "morning joe." we're on tape this hour, bringing you some of our best discussions of the past few weeks. we will begin with a recent

column for axios titled "the great upheaval" which looks at how ai is among the many forces generating major change in government and beyond. let's bring in the co-author of this piece co-founder and ceo of axios jim vandehei, msnbc contributor mike barnicle also joins us. i looks good, actually. >> yeah. >> okay. thanks for showing up. >> jim vandehei, this ai thing scares me. >> scares all of us. >> carnies, they -- >> what? >> they scare me. it's an austin powers line. but this ai thing scares me, man, and it seems like we don't have an administration that is going to be actually bringing the reins in on development of it. what are your concerns and what are you reporting this morning? >> well, i think it goes beyond ai, but i think ai sits at the center of it, which is if you

think like most viewers probably feel pretty disoriented, feel like there is a lot of change. there actually is because you simultaneously have massive change happening in how we get information, how we govern ourselves, businesses, and then geopolitical relationships. very rarely in history do those four plates shift simultaneously. and i do think you put your finger on t i think ai sits at the center of a lot of this, given that almost every business is thinking about how to apply this. your biggest technology companies, some of which are the size of nation states, are investing collectively hundreds of billions of dollars to will it into existence. then you look at trump and you look at the relationship with elon musk, they want this government and they want ai to be an accelerant of these technologies, which will hit not just, you know, new chatgpts, it will affect how you create data, that's why you see these data centers opening in a lot of

cities and energy. they require and eat an astronomical amount of energy so you need to produce more of it domestically which i think will reorient the entire domestic energy system that we have today. that's huge and i think the people that are at the table often stand to benefit from it, right? like elon musk has big pieces of this. he has his own ai company that he's raising money for and that he's helping fund. when you have the ear of the president and you have mark andreessen who has a huge portfolio and the ear of the president these are smart people who understand the technology. so i think they're gleefully and i think pretty confidently feeling like let's use this moment to make government an accelerant of all of this. that's just a big shift from the biden administration. >> yeah, and, jim, as your piece is called "the great upheaval" this ai question is just one part of what's happening. >> yeah. >> really, really fast right now and, as you say, people like elon musk and others want to use

government to accelerate the pace of innovation and development. >> yeah. >> elon musk clearly -- people say why did he come out so early and endorse donald trump? he saw a winner in donald trump, he was right about that, he wanted to get on board early, reports that he has doubled his wealth since election day and may go even further. so how influential do you expect him to be not just on questions of ai, but more broadly in this administration? >> like astronomically influential. i don't think you can put words to it. i can't think of a civilian who has had in history more impact over at least an incoming administration and the transition of a presidency. what he tells trump privately is he believes there could be more business change, more cultural change, more governance change than at any point since the founding of the country. obviously he is prone to grandiosity but he's been right on a lot of these technologies and a lot of the areas where the country is going. i do think for people who fear it and, joe, you said it worries

you, i do think taking a wrecking ball to how we've been doing business in washington, there's a real eloquence and logic to it in that you are going to have to change very fast to keep up with these technologies and most of our government agencies are so antiquated, so bloated, they are not necessarily set up for this next era. so if you did it right and if you applied technology right, then you position us to hopefully prevail against china and that's the reason that they are not going to put the brakes on ai because every moment that they think about putting the brakes on ai, you're going to have somebody whispering in their ear do you really want to give the chinese an advantage on a technology where we have a decisive head start? it's the reason that biden didn't want to regulate. when you hear that, see it and worry about it, you don't want to be the person to put the genie back in the bottle when we are the ones who created the genie. >> that's always the argument and you're right, first thing they will say is, really? you're going to give china the advantage here? and i will say also, we do have

a bureaucracy across washington, d.c. that's antiquated. we had reports that, you know, the pentagon has computers from like the 1980s. it's just absolutely horrid. so, yeah, if we can update those, fantastic. but, mike, you look at the great upheaval, though, and we still haven't come to terms with what's been happening over the last 30, 40 years and why there is such great unrest in middle america, where there's such great unrest in the upper midwest. we had an industrial age that was hollowed out by globalization and the tech revolution, so we became more productive with less workers. now we have the next revolution with ai and that's -- that's just going to super size that crisis. we're going to be a more productive economy that's going to require even less workers. that's going to put more people out of work. that's going to put more people

on the sidelines. it is going to create social unrest, it is going to create cultural unrest, it is going to create more economic decay in the heartland. and when you have a government of billionaires that we're going to be having, i don't -- i don't see a lot of people that have been nominated thus far that are going to be worried about the long-term impacts of that. >> you know, joe, what you just said is the icing on the cake of an extraordinarily past 40 minutes of discussion about this country, and it appears today, right now, we're talking about the basic function of government going forward. is it going to change? the function of american government, is it going to change? chris wray decided to just quit his job because he was so disturbed about the reputation and the morale of the fbi being dragged through the mud once

again. there are three intelligence positions up for grabs, the director of national intelligence, the head of the department of defense and the head of the fbi, obviously. those three jobs up for nominations are critical to the protection and the defense of the united states of america and the nominees are a joke, and they're about to be nominated and it appears that the republican party on the senate side will go along with the nominees to further damage the function of government. we would be surprised -- we would all be surprised at the number of americans in this country who depend on the government. they don't think they depend on the government, but they do. a social security check, a tax refund, government functioning, obeying the law, moving the law forward, moving the country forward. all of that now, listening to the last 40 minutes of this

discussion, is on the table. which way are we going to go? i'm waiting for the answers. >> we all are. jim vandehei, final question to you and i will ask you just based on your reporting what you're hearing on the hill, what you're hearing from people around washington, d.c. we've asked david rhode his thought when we are looking at some of the appointees whether there is an effort to intimidate or a clear route to retribution. he was talking about people inside of the fbi and inside of the justice department understanding the costs of following an illegal order that ultimately lands them in hot water. what are you hearing around the hill? what are you hearing around washington, d.c.? do they believe that this president and those around him are trying to intimidate critics

into silence or are they going to be seeking retribution from day one? >> i mean, i wouldn't assume that they won't seek retribution and i wouldn't even assume that they wouldn't stretch it to areas that would get into gray areas or illegal areas. i'm not saying that they will, but you have to take them at their word, take them at their writing. a lot of these folks have said that's what they want to do. i think it really depends on how president trump feels his presidency is going and who he is agitated with at any given moment. i think the biggest story is the one you just put your finger on. you are saying you think there's six or seven or eight senators at the end who will probably do the right thing and might oppose some of these nominees, i'm not so certain of that. you look at what happened with senator ernst in iowa, here somebody dead opposed to that nominee and nomination on deeply philosophical grounds. what happens? you get the hell pounded out of you on x and then you have all of these conservative groups

running ads back home, calling people who are close to you, having other senators come in and pressure you. it takes a very, very strong, virtuous person who say i'm going to withstand all of that and put my political career at risk to oppose the president of the united states who happens to be of my party. i would not be confident that any of these nominees are going down. they might. you might be right. but i'm watching what these members are saying after they go through this pressure campaign and that's what's different from when you were in congress. there just weren't that many ways to pressure you with that level of intimidation. >> exactly. >> and it's very, very, very successful. >> as i said to a british journalist who was asking me this very question yesterday -- >> good point. >> -- when it comes to susan collins it's just career league football, it's the hope that kills you. axios co-founder jim vandehei, thank you so much.

coming up, we will speak with former white house coronavirus coordinator dr. deborah burkes for her take on donald trump's controversial picks to lead the done friday's top health agency and also about the global health program she once led that has saved tens of millions of lives, but which is now in danger of losing funding. an important conversation. "morning joe" will be right back. an important conversation. "morning joe" will be right back rsue a better you with centrum. ♪♪ it's a small win toward taking charge of your health. ♪♪ so, this year, you can say... ♪you did it!♪ if you're living with hiv, imagine being good to go without daily hiv pills. ♪♪ good to go binge-watch. ♪♪ good to go out even later. ♪♪ with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month.

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of resilience and the extraordinary strength of people, families and communities affected by hiv/aids, including nearly 40 million people living with hiv around the world today. 40 million. we send a clear message to the nation and to the world that we stand united in the fight against this epidemic. that was president biden yesterday marking world aids day to honor those who have lost their lives to the disease and to highlight the ongoing -- responsible for saving 26 million lives and enabling nearly 8 million babies to be born hiv free. joining us now senior fellow at

the george w. bush institute, dr. deborah birx, she previously served as white house coronavirus coordinator and as the u.s. global aids coordinator, where she oversaw pep far. it's great to have you back on the show. >> good to be with you. >> is it possible to put into words -- good to have you -- possible to put into words the reach, the mag tut of what pep far has been able to accomplish and what would happen, what it would mean if it lost its funding. >> well, thank you, it's great to be with you and great for you to highlight this program because i think there are a lot of lessons in this program of how we can do a job better really because when it was originally launched by president bush it was focused on doing business differently, more effectively, more efficiently, but i think it represented the best of what america does, is we

see something, we do something. we saw the crisis, we acted. we didn't just talk about. and we have a lot of crises now in the world and we are talking about them but we need to really act and that's both back here in the -- our country and overseas. pepfar was successful because from the very beginning it brought democrats and republicans together united in an american response and i think that's why it's been successful for 20 years and you see these great results. it's an extraordinary program but very results-oriented. >> and so i guess some might say, okay, it's done such great work and the work is done. can you explain the impact of if it just all of a sudden stopped doing the work that it does? >> well, i think you highlighted almost 8 million babies born hiv-free. >> right. >> we've been working now to keep those babies that are now

20, 21, 22 hiv-free. so you have to constantly adjust your program based on the results and based on the needs and the gaps and that's what pepfar has been able to do. in a very flat budget since 2009 we've gone from less than 4 million people on treatment to over 21 million, almost 21 people on treatment in a flat budget. that shows you how you can build efficiencies. i know so many people they say, well, we need more money to do more. no. you need to focus your program and use data to make it more effective and that's what pepfar shows us and we think that can be brought back dom tree. yes, it's a successful global program, it has really decreased the incidence so it will need less money in the future but needs to remain focused, and those very lessons can be brought back to our big chronic disease crises because everybody said we couldn't change the course of the hiv pandemic

without a vaccine. we did. and we can do that now domestically in the united states for many of our chronic diseases. >> so i want to ask you about something else, dr. scott gottlieb the former fda commissioner during trump's first term is raising alarms about the nomination of robert f. kennedy jr. as hhs secretary. here is what he said in an interview on friday. take a listen. >> i'm not so sure that people really understand how kennedy's intentions are going to translate into policy and how serious he is. i think if rfk follows through on his intentions, and i believe he will and i believe he can, it will cost lives in this country. you're going to see measles, mumps and rubella vaccination rates go down. if we lose another 5% which could happen in the next year or two we will see large measles outbreaks. for every 1,000 cases that occur in measles in children there will be one death and we are not good in this country at diagnosing and treating measles.

>> dr. birx, what do you make of his critique, his concerns, and do you have similar concerns? >> well, as you know i'm very data driven. i like to see the data and really see how people handle that data, and people can change their minds with data. i have seen that all over the world. all the presidents, prime ministers that i have worked with and the ones that i have worked with in this country, data speaks if you present it in a way that people can understand it. i think what scott gottlieb and the rest of us should be doing right now is seeing what rfk brings to his hearing and what data he speaks to because he's already said he's changed on his viewpoint about the importance of vaccines, but to me his willingness to focus on chronic disease and say we haven't been successful, we haven't been successful in preventing disease progression. that's what we did in africa with hiv/aids. we prevented disease progression. and we need to do that now in the united states. i'm committed to that.

i started programs now in rural america because the rural america data is terrible, and we've just accepted it. like we were helping hiv deaths in africa. it's unacceptable and we need to change that. i'm committed to that. i am hoping to see what the trump administration and robert kennedy is committed to changing our pandemics that we're facing of chronic diseases. >> dr. deborah birx, thank you very much. good to see you once again. back on "morning joe." >> glad to be with you. >> we appreciate it. still ahead, one of our next guests says that president biden's decision to pardon his son hunter is splitting the anti-trump resistance. we will dig into that new piece next. -trump resistance. we will dig into that new piece next ss owner, your to-do list can be...a lot. ♪♪ super helpful. ♪♪ [ cheering ]

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david, your latest article is entitled "biden's hunter pardon splits the antitrust resistance" and in it you write in part this, biden and attorney general merrick garland had allowed a trump-ordered probe of the trump russia inquiry to continue, had appointed a special counsel to investigate biden's handling of classified documents after leaving the vice presidency, had kept on david weiss a trump appointees and made him a special counsel to avoid any appearance that the

democrats were trying to impede the hunter biden investigations. none of this was very compelling to voters who heard trump accuse the biden doj of trying to destroy him. you continue, that was enormously depressing for democrats and anti-trump conservatives, some of them hoped that biden would leave office on the high ground, making an a raymic sacrifice of his son, making trump moves or mass pardons look cheap by comparison. well, he didn't. he didn't. i wish he hadn't said i will never pardon him or i will not pardon him, but having said that when you look at the statement they put out about exactly why they did what they did, you can see the sense of it. i can't put myself in his shoes. your thoughts? >> yeah, that's where a lot of democrats are safely landing, that he shouldn't have said he wasn't going to do this if he was going to do it.

the internal rationale you've heard from people closer to biden is that letting his son go through the agony of these court cases, the humiliation that he went through in the last four years that should be punishment enough. i think that's where democrats might end up, but this is -- and mike was talking about this a little bit before -- all of this is in the context of an election conducted in a country that assumes most politicians are pretty corrupt and doing favors for each other that are fine with a lot of the economic connections, the financial gains that members of the trump transition team, incoming cabinet, the gains they could make from being part of the administration because they assume a lot of politicians are doing that already. this is -- i go back to the campaign to stop members of congress from trading stock. that was started by peter schweizer, steve bannon was a proponent of it. i'm not saying it's illegitimate but the impetus for that was we need to get these -- this political class out of washington, we need to get people out of their comfy jobs in the state, in the deep state.

you can't trust any of them. if you just keep lowering the level of trust people have for politicians people can get away with more if their base supports them. when it comes to biden, it split this coalition of people saying they're supporting biden and harris just to prove that rule of law still matters. that's not how people feel anymore. it was decided in the election. >> i also think that no matter what you think of this pardon, the coverage of this is as if -- i mean, you look at what has happened on the trump side, especially if you parallel pardons that trump has done himself, it's just always so -- it seems so hysterically imbalanced. i just -- you know, when you read how they're covering this and then you look at the things that are happening on the other side, it is, again, completely out of step with reality. >> dave, that's something that

you're hearing. i know you are not a media critic, but i know you've heard this complaint. "the new york times" like the top six stories online today were all about the pardon. you looked at the "washington post" yesterday, you expected like war is over. >> right. >> in massive headlines. on the same day donald trump said he was going to nominate a guy who said he had an enemies list he was going to go after and he was going to arrest journalists. i don't remember headlines this large when donald trump commuted the sentence of roger stone, then let him run the stop the steal -- help the stop the steal campaign, and then pardoned him after that. i again, i'm not asking you to take sides here, i'm just saying -- >> we're not. >> -- talk about the frustration many democrats are having on the "washington post," new york

post, "wall street journal," a lot of mainstream organizations blowing this up to a size that they believe is really out of proportion given everything donald trump has done in the past and what he's doing right now. >> this is actually come up in my conversations with people running to lead the dnc, the democratic party, after the election. one big conversation they are having is how do we reach out to people who just believed everything donald trump said, didn't believe what our candidates said, don't believe the media? and they don't have a good answer because the country has gotten so segmented that what you just talked about what's on the front page of the "new york times" that's never going to get to a lot of voters. they are not going to subscribe to the paper, see the paper in print or care what's on the website because they don't trust it. and they're correct about that. this is something that's been happening for five or six years and finally you talk to republican voters is they will fixate or remember a couple of incidents where trump was accused of something and it didn't pan out. >> right. >> we mention the trump russia investigation that is correct comes up again and again. they said russia stole the

election for him and i heard that it didn't, therefore, i don't trust the media, the media was hyperventilating. there were a lot of people, millions of people who maybe they didn't read the paper but they heard about what was in it, they had some sense of what the big nightly news networks were running and they tuned that out, they read social media now, they don't trust any accusation against not just trump, but they are not going to trust this report about pete hegseth, they are not going to trust criticism of kash patel or other trump nominees. that is a problem for democrats. if they convince "the new york times" to run headlines just the way they wanted that wouldn't fix that problem at all. >> it's a great point. symone, this is one of the great challenges, democrats -- again, here i'm talking about "the new york times," the "washington post," the "wall street journal," when the fact is that so many voters now are getting their news from tiktok, instagram reels, x, blue sky. >> yeah.

exactly. so, again, i think people should just be up front and clear and the pearl clutching by democrats is not surprising but for me it is disappointing. look, this 118th congress they opened up an impeachment inquiry into president biden. people may have forgotten that. in our nation's recent history only five presidents before biden had ever had an impeachment inquiry opened against them and all of the recent impeachment inquiries except for joe biden who was the sixth president who have an impeachment inquiry opened against him were based on credible evidence. the quiry was so baseless that the only public hearing that the oversight committee had on this their own witnesses said there was no there-there. so knowing all of that do we actually believe that joe biden was going to let the president-elect's administration make good on their promise to go after his son? >> right. >> joe biden is leaving the stage. he's leaving the stage.

this is not a donald trump situation where he could potentially come back and run for president. he is done. he has done everything -- joe biden has played by all the rules that people told him we had to play by. right? he's done it all. so good for joe biden and good for hunter, i say. sorry to the com shop this week, this is very unfortunate to the people in the com shop, okay? but like, oh, well. the democrats need to just really -- the house is literally on fire and y'all are still looking for the keys. donald trump is about -- i'm going to hold america's hand when i say this, baby, donald trump is about to be president. donald trump is about to be president and the supreme court has said he can -- he's basically a king with an asterisk. so, please -- >> immunity. >> what is happening here? >> i hear you completely. we appreciate that. politics reporter, dave wiegel, thank you so much.

symone sanders town send, thank you very much. we will be watching "weekend" saturdays and sundays starting at 8:00 a.m. right here on msnbc. up ahead tony award winning actress idina menzel joins us in studio to preview her upcoming broadway show and to discuss "wicked," the hit movie of the holidays. "morning joe" will be right back. of the holidays "morning joe" will be right back

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♪ i think i'll try defying gravity ♪ ♪ and you can't put me down ♪♪ ♪ let it go, let it go ♪ ♪ i am one with the wind and sky ♪ ♪ let it go, let it go ♪ ♪ you'll never see my cry ♪♪ only two of the most famous songs in the history of recorded music, both songs by our guest, film, broadway, now making her

highly anticipated return to the broadway stage in the new year, tony award winning actress idina menzel set to star in the new musical "red wood." menzel plays jesse a grieving woman who finds unexpected solace far from home in the red wood forests of northern california. menzel won the tony for playing in the original broadway production of "wicked" which as you may have heard has been adapted into a film that is in theaters now. we're so lucky to have idina menzel joining us in studio. >> hi. good morning. such an honor to be here. i watch you guys all the time. >> we have so much to talk to you b i want to start with you coming back to broadway because people have heard this news and they are so excited. they call her the queen of broadway. >> she is the queen. >> it embarrasses you so i turn to them. but so tell us about "redwood" the show that you had such a hand in creating obviously and is so personal to you. >> i co-conceived with my show

with my director and writer friend tina landau over a decade ago. i learned of a woman julia butterfly hill who lived in a redwood tree for over 730 days in order to protest the logging companies. before i actually fell in love with the redwoods i will admit that i fell in love with the idea of escaping and what it would be like to turn everything off and sort of go and -- into this tranquil or what i thought would be a tranquil place, a sacred place. then i -- and the idea of what i was capable of as a woman, could i do something like that? what would be my advocacy, my passion, my fortitude to be able to endure something like that? then i educated myself and fell in love with these incredible, gentle giants and learned that -- the ethos of the redwoods is this incredible sort of metaphor for us as human

beings and how we can be resilient and survive. so this story is really beautiful, it's very special to me, it's completely original, a completely original musical and it's about the power of nature to help us really heal. >> you said you read the story a decade ago, i think that speaks to what this takes to get something to the stage. >> yes. >> from the birth of an idea. so what is that process like for you who is not just showing up to perform but it's your baby? >> well, i will say that my -- my success has come in a lot of original musicals before so i'm well acquainted with the patience that's needed to do it and it's something that i love very much. i really feel that there are so many new stories that need to be sold and while i love all the musicals out there with their movie titles or their brand names, i feel very committed to finding new work and also giving other young composers a platform to do -- to show their work.

it's just wonderful to create something, to stand at the piano and have a composer write a song for you and, you know, it's just -- it's a process that i love very much. >> people are very excited. previews january 24th and opens on february 13 at the needer lander. >> yes. >> didn't you start at the needer lander. >> i did with "rent." full circle, i'm going to take my old dressing room which i used to share and i'm going to knock down the one next door to me where my ex-husband used to be and i'm going to take the whole thing as a suite. >> you've earned it. you've earned a suite. >> thank you very much. >> so that moment that return beyond the dressing room but getting in front of that audience again with the reaction unlike on film the reaction being so immediate and visceral what will that be like? >> live performance in the theater, is that what you're asking? >> yeah. >> i mean, it's my happy place. it's everything. it's the reciprocity you have with the audience and yourself and sort of this -- the more

love and the more authenticity and vulnerability you're able to show and to give, the more you receive and having this communal experience just like the redwoods or this community and sort of feed each other and hydrate each other with their inter connective roots, it's a beautiful sort of parallel for how we feel as actors in the heater. >> you've worked in so many different forms, tv, broadway, television, i think at times. what is it like to take a production from the stage to film? >> i like to say the biggest thing you have to worry about is singing mouth. so when you are in a theater you sing in order to hit the notes that we hit our mouth is open very wide, you might -- if you were close up you might see a cavity or something. when you are on screen they come here but you don't want to make that same crazy face because the camera is right here. sometimes i hate to tell

everybody but you're faking your singing mouth a little bit because you want to still look attractive when you're singing. but, yeah, so it's all about the intimacy with the camera and how subtle and how large. most of the time, though, as long as you're really believing what you're doing you are in a good place. >> i mentioned you originated the role of alfeba 20 years ago on broadway, you won the tony for that. what has it been like for you to see this sort of phenomenon of a movie take off and people -- like young kids who maybe didn't even see the broadway show now have this entirely new relationship with the thing you started? >> honestly it's been very profound, moving for myself and i can speak for my good friend kristen chenoweth as well. we have such a sense of pride about being a part of this -- the genesis of this show and its

legacy and what it represents and sort of the sisterhood that comes from it and the permission it gives young people of all genders and in between to feel comfortable being who they are and their most unique selves. >> and cynthia's performance i interviewed her for the movie and she had such reverence for you saying i don't even want to try to do that idina did because people will call me out on that. i can't be that. what's your take on her performance in the film? >> well, we spoke when she first got the role and everybody always asks me what advice did you give her? and i say absolutely none. i mean, she is an incredibly talented woman and does not need my advice. i did tell her just to enjoy the moment, as being her elder i want her to know that it's important in these times in our career because things are so fleeting to really try to stay in it and really appreciate the moment. she is just exquisite and does

bring her own -- her only thing to it while also being extremely respectful and loving to what was established. >> it's nice to see a new generation carry on the legacy of what you started. >> it is. >> and people are so excited for you coming back to broadway, previews the broadway musical "redwood" begin january 24th at the needer lander theater and opening night is february 13th. tony winning actress and co-creator of "redwood" idina menzel. great to see you. still ahead here, you know her for the hit tv show "this is us." now she's taking her talents to the stage. actress susan watson stars in a new play titled "the blood quilt." she joins us straight ahead here on "morning joe." quilt. she joins us straight ahead here on "morning joe. 50 years and older. shingrix doesn't protect everyone and isn't for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. tell your healthcare provider if you're pregnant or breastfeeding. increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can happen so take precautions. most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling where injected, muscle pain, tiredness,

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welcome back. the powerful new play "the blood quilt" is garnering rave reviews after making its off-broadway debut. the show focuses on four sisters who reunite in their home state

of georgia to create a family quilt to honor their mother who had recently passed away, but when they gather to read their mother's will, what they learn threatens to tear them apart. the question then becomes can their blood quilt keep the family together? and joining us now is the actress susan kelechi watson, she plays one of the four sisters in "the blood quilt." thank you for being here. >> thank you for having me. >> let's just start with what drew you to this story which clearly has themes that will resonate with a lot of people? >> yeah, you know, i think that catori hall is a prolific writer, i've followed her work for maybe the last ten years or so and i've been a fan of it, i've been a fan of our direct's work and it was -- it's a powerful piece that i feel gives real story and real heart to a

black family of women. i love that it takes time with each woman and gives them their own story line and takes the time to really carve out real characters that feel like real life. and i wanted to be a part of that. >> this is a story about inheritance, right? talk to me about -- this is -- i feel like inheritance and the younger generation grappling with the older generation, letting them down -- >> yeah. >> -- is really -- talk to us about that theme. >> yeah, the theme of inheritance, you know, you have to think about this family that hasn't had much and the real value of what they have is in these quilts. they have quilts that have been passed down from slavery and that people have woven their lives, pieces of their clothing, pieces of their history, their pain into this these quilts and this has become a source of family pride but now because of the family's need to pay the taxes on the home that the mother left neglected, this has now become a resource.

how do they turn this source of inheritance into something monetary that maybe they can get out of debt with? and so what does it mean to give up legacy in order to survive? and that has been, i think, an issue that a lot of people have had. what happens when you don't have the means to sort of hold on to the things that are very dear to you, that you have to actually let them go in order to survive. >> how much in that, susan -- and you know that black families, like any families, are not monolithic, everyone has their own -- >> that's right. >> -- ambitions, goals. >> that's right. >> even different memories. it's thanksgiving week and we all remember things differently. >> very differently. >> but how important is it that the quilt also remind them of their value of what the forefathers and parents did for them -- >> that's right. >> -- while they try to weigh money advertising this. because on one hand you realize

your richness by the people that survived to present you, on the other hand you have immediate needs. >> yeah, and that exact sort of juxtaposition is realized in the play between the oldest sister clementine and the youngest sister amber. the younger one has less of a connection to it, she has moved on with her life and would sooner forget what she's been through with the family and move on into the more modern world of like being a lawyer and, you know, all of these things that have become a priority in her life, and you have the older sister who has stayed in the gull geechy islands and who has a deep connection to the family, the history and the roots and it means everything to her. like you said, it's those different perspectives of what does this mean? they both see value in it, she sees value of keeping it and she sees the value of selling it but they both see the value, it's just two sides of this coin. and then need is really what takes precedent. it's like what needs to ppen

for this family to survive it and that is eventually having to let go of the quilts, which is really sad. but then you kind of think, well, then what happens is this then the world is able to experience the great thing that their family has -- this great legacy their family has left. >> a powerful story. you can see "the blood quilt" at lincoln center's newhouse center through december 29th. susan kelechi watson, thank you very much. we appreciate you being here. ♪ that's the island greeting that we send to you ♪ ♪ from the land where palm trees sway ♪♪ . ♪ aces to go and i'm feeling free. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me.♪ and now i'm back in the picture. feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements.

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special holiday edition of "morning joe." we are on tape this morning bringing you some of our best recent conversations, including a piece in "the economist"

offering tips from a dozen foreign diplomats and american officials on, quote, how to avoid oval office humiliation when president-elect trump returns to the white house. >> joining us now the author of that piece david rennie. good morning. the fact that we even have to say that out loud that there is a guide to avoiding humiliation inside the oval office tells us something about this incoming administration. so what do you say to foreign leaders as they deal with donald trump once again? >> look, every foreign ministry and government worth its salt is preparing madly for how to deal with donald trump because they were taken by surprise in 2016. not that many suspected he would win, and it was a pretty rough experience for some world leaders, angela merkel in germany, justin trudeau in canada, who we know from trump officials at the time he came to really loath them and that had consequences for their country's policies. look, foreign governments they don't get to vote in american elections, they have no choice,

they have to deal with the president of america so they are all studying, comparing notes, looking at what works and what didn't work last time. the column i wrote was really trying to tackle some of this advice you hear is really, really simplistic. it's you flatter the guy, you feed him burgers and ice cream, you give him treats and presents like kind of gold golf clubs. the problem s you know, you are not organizing a toddler's birthday party here, you are actually trying to run foreign policy with a world super power. so i set out to speak to people who had been in the room for between them hundreds of hours and who had seen what worked and what didn't work. >> so, david, i mean, there is a sense that flattery to some extent does work. i mean, all of these cabinet picks that he's laying out, for example, all appear on fox news, flattered donald trump, support him. i'm remembering back at the beginning of the first trump term when he went and traveled to saudi arabia and they projected his face on the side of the hotel.

president macron has come to understand how to massage donald trump politically as well. what are the limits, though, to that flattery? you say that's not quite enough to get what you want from him. >> yeah, so literally ambassadors and diplomats would say to me flattery is sometimes essential, but that doesn't mean that you're going to change his mind or trick him or distract him into doing something that he doesn't intend to do. it's almost like a down payment. i think there is agreement among people who negotiated with him that he's a bully. that he likes to be the most powerful man in the room and he likes deference. to some extent the flattery is not something that makes him happy, it's just like a sort of -- it's like, you know, animals at a farm, you roll over on your back and you show that you are the submissive animal. that's the role of the flattery. the crucial point is he will only listen to people flattering him if he respects their strength. the thing that frustrates him the most is the passive-aggressive preachy, lecturing, whiney leaders.

a lot of european leaders fall into that camp. he likes leaders who can deliver on a deal that he can cut with them at the moment in the oval office or when he goes and visits them abroad. that's really what interests them. the flattery is necessary but as one diplomat said it's not a silver bullet. >> we saw wildly different responses yesterday from the leaders of mexico and canada as to trump's trade threats. also we're hearing from some trump advisers who already once he takes office want to schedule another meeting with kim jong-un, the leader of north korea, believing that face-to-face diplomacy could help relations there. as part of that is the idea of the "madman" theory, the trump team leaned into the idea that because he was unpredictable that made him hard to deal with. do you think that can be effective going forward? >> it works as long as people don't think you're bluffing. one of the concerns looking at his record in the first term is that sometimes those fire and fury threats to kind of potentially start a war with

north korea, people came to believe in some pretty rough corners of the world that actually he wasn't really that keen on using military force. that he likes to talk tough, he talks big but it's not actually real. until quite recently i was our beijing bureau chief and i spent years talking to chinese officials, some very senior officials about how they view donald trump. by the end fd his first time, look, they take him seriously because he could be about to hit their economy with huge tariffs, they don't underestimate how dangerous he can be but they came to believe that he is not as hawkish, tough or keen on military force as he likes to make out. their view is that he was a transactional guy surrounded by genuine chooichb hawks and if they could get to him and cut a deal directly actually maybe he doesn't believe in very much -- he doesn't dislike dictators, he doesn't disapprove of people using iron fisted tactics, he often says that's clever and smart. i think the world's dictators they're wary of him, that

unpredictability clearly gives him an edge but they came in their first term to think maybe he is not quite as tough and willing to start wars as some of his rhetoric might lead you to think. >> all right. we are about to find out. geo politics editor at "the economist" david rennie with a fascinating piece. up next, important for the holidays, transportation secretary pete buttigieg will join the conversation with an announcement on protections for passengers stranded by airline disruptions. rs stranded by airle disruptions. because a dog at a healthy weight could live a longer, happier life.

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how much have you paid people to pull out customers who are in line with a bag that's 2 centimeters too big, there schroeder? >> well, we recognize this is a hard job and so, therefore, we incentivize them to do that. >> how much? >> it's $10 per bag. >> wow, $10 for bag. you do appreciate that flying on your airlines is a disaster, don't you? i'm slightly amazed by the general attitude of all of you here. flying on your airlines is horrible. it's a terrible experience. i mean, i say this as a father

of three young children. i can't tell you -- nobody enjoys flying on your airlines. it's a disaster. >> republican senator josh hawley of missouri addressing the ceos of major airlines at a hearing yesterday on capitol hill. with commercial air travel now surpassing pre-covid levels the biden administration this morning is laying the groundwork to further protect stranded passengers when airlines cancel or significantly change flights. under the potential new regulations airlines would have to pay passengers at least $200 in cash compensation, rebook their next flight at no additional cost and cover meals, overnight lodging and related transportation expenses resulting from the delay or cancellation. let's bring in transportation secretary pete buttigieg with more on this. mr. secretary, thanks for joining us this morning. so these seem to most travelers like common sense solutions to a problem that plagues so much of

us with the airports so busy, you get delayed, canceled, where am i going to go, where am i going to stay or where is my next meal coming? how close do you believe you are to getting this implemented. >> we have to get public input and data but this launches a process that i think will lead to more improvements for passengers. there's two goals here, make sure those kinds of disruptions are less likely to happen in the first place and make sure you're taken care of when you do. that's been a big part of our push over the last several years as we have expanded passenger rights and as we've been putting pressure on the airlines. cancellation rates have improved substantially. so far this year it's around 1.3%. so we know that this approach works. making sure there are consequences when you let passengers down and making sure that if that does happen passengers are better taken care of. what's new here is for the first time we're launching a process where the department would consider cash compensation and other requirements about what the airline has to do in those

situations if it's caused by the airline. we get that nobody controls the weather, but if the airline gets you stuck, there ought to be some kind of regard not only for getting you on your way, but also for the cost in terms of your time. i would note that these kinds of policies are something you will see widely used around the world, but up until now we have not seen them in the united states. >> mr. secretary, it's not often that i would think i would be agreeing with senator josh hawley on much, but i certainly agree with him in that clip we just showed at the hearing. commercial air travel in america for the average flying customer, people like me, is a nightmare. what can we do about the fact that when an airline is delaying a flight inn comp hence blee long, it's going to be delayed for three hours or whatever, what can we do about getting a cash payment back for the ticket

because it has inflicted pain on our time, on customers' times, on family times, but the airlines seem hesitant to just say, okay, here is a refund? >> well, that's something that we have enacted through our automatic refund rule and that is taking effect this year and i think will make a big difference. the idea here is if an airline owes you, as they do for a flight that's canceled or delayed past a certain amount, there is a three-hour threshold for domestic flights, longer for international flights, then you shouldn't have to fight or send an email or negotiate to get your money back, it should just come to you. we finally were able to do that this year. what we're now announcing with today's process is that you would also get some kind of compensation for your time. there are a lot of places around the world where you would get some level of cash and the concept that is in this proposal would start at a $200 cash

payment to you, in addition to anything else that you are entitled to. if you are stuck and it's because of the airline. also requirements around rebooking, saying they have to put you in the next available seat and if they don't have one after a certain amount of time they have to be ready to put you on a seat of another airline. covering hotels and ground transportation. we've already got enforceable agreements with the airlines, with most of the airlines, requiring or providing that, but there's never been a rule that sets a floor, which means the airlines could change that. this would set a new framework for that. all of that is designed to address that core frustration that you are talking about, that feeling that so many of us have as passengers that we're not being well taken care of. i can tell you not just as a policymaker, not just as an agency head who fields thousands of complaints that come into our department, but just as a frequent flier, i will in a few minutes be hopping on a flight here at o'hare. i know how frustrating that can be and i know that we can get results through enforcement,

transparency and better regulation like this. >> so, mr. secretary, you're laying the groundwork here for these changes, but obviously the biden administration is in its final days. you've spoken to donald trump's selection to take your job if he were to be confirmed. does the incoming trump administration seem on board with what you guys are putting out there? >> well, we will have to see what steps they take, but i will say this, you know, they have said a lot of things and gone through a lot of motions that are populist. i think that will be tested in many ways and one important test of that will be to see if the next administration follows through on what we have initiated and maintains the rules that we've created and the enforcement practices that we have created to hold airlines accountable. i have seen several airline ceos express their hopes that the next administration will be less passenger friendly and more corporate friendly than we are,

but i don't think that's guaranteed. i think that as that clip showed, there's actual bipartisan interest, bipartisan desire to continue advancing these passenger protections. i am proud that on our watch during this administration, during my time as secretary, we've delivered the biggest expansion in airline passenger rights in the history of the department. i would certainly challenge any future administration to maintain that record and build on it. >> secretary buttigieg, on another issue, the future of the democratic national committee, there are people that have already announce that had they're running to be the new chair, some rumors that you may look at it. whether you will seek this or not is the first part of my question, and secondly, if not, where do you think the dnc needs to be guiding its emphasis now? what direction should it take being that it only lost the presidential election in less

than 2%? >> so i will not. i'm not entering that process, but of course, like so many people, i'm watching it with a lot of interest. that's about as much as i can say about the party just because i'm appearing as a federal officials right now. certainly something i'm watching as a citizen, something i care about. and one other thing that i would note is that from a policy perspective and just as we think about the future of the country, i believe that we not only have a lot of great leaders to work with in washington who i do believe in in the house, in the senate, some of them just coming in, having just having been elected, some of them i have been working with for the last several years who have been such a support to this administration, helping us get our work done, but also i hope that we don't overlook what state and local leaders are doing. there is extraordinary leadership out there, so much of

it coming from different figures and different generations on our side of the aisle and i really believe that's going to be a huge part of the way forward. >> transportation secretary pete buttigieg, always good to see you and thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thanks a lot for having me on. still to come here, it's one of the biggest video games of all time, but it almost never happened. we will take a look at the new docuseries about the madden video game franchise and hear the never before told story of how it became a worldwide phenomenon. "morning joe" will be right back. ide phenomenon "morning joe" will be right back lets me adjust the bass. add more guitar. maybe some drums. wow, so many choices. yeah. like schwab. i can get full-service wealth management, advice, invest on my own, and trade on thinkorswim. you know carl is the only frontman you need... oh i gotta take this carl, it's schwab. ♪ schwaaaab! ♪ have a choice in how you invest with schwab.

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ea sports. >> it's one of the best sellers in video game history. >> welcome to john madden football. >> it's in the game. >> it's in the game. >> it's in the game. >> i guarantee you, baby, it's in the game. >> this was a piece of culture, it wasn't just a video game. >> i'm one of these guys who got into football through madden. >> my first dream was trying to

make it to the league so i'm kind of living my athletic dreams through this game. >> you want to know what it's going to be like to be troy aikman, i'm going to be troy aikman. >> we were starting in complete chaos. >> we weren't seeing progress. >> most of us at ea wondered if the game would get finished. >> we didn't think it would amount to anything. >> we needed some firepower. >> john madden was the man. >> coach madden was really to completely change the game, but i remember john saying don't do anything to screw up my name. >> so that was a look at the new docuseries that premiere today titled "it's in the game: madden nfl." the four-part series goes behind the scenes of one of the most popular video game franchises of all time focusing on the influential figure and name sake at the center of it all. super bowl winning head coach and emmy award winning broadcaster, the late john madden. joining us now is his son, mike

madden, along with the hall of fame coach's long-time agent and friend, sandy montague, he is the president of the montague group which represents other prominent sports broadcasters, he's also one of the executive producers of the new docuseries, thank you for being here this morning. full disclosure, i have had my time playing madden, but mid '90s was my hay dave, i revived it around '07 so i could throw deep balls from tom brady to randy moss. your father's legacy it is a super bowl winning coach, hall of famer, it is the broadcaster, you know, most famous football broadcaster we have ever had but one could argue he is best known for this. talk to us about this unlikely marriage between your father and this video game franchise. >> he thought he was pretty famous when he was winning super bowls and, you know, winning 100 games in ten years and then it came to a shock to him when he was -- he did the miller lite

commercial and became the guy who busts through the paper. then there was a third leg to his name when kids in new york city started poking their heads out the windows and they started yelling, hey, madden. hey, madden. and he is like where is this coming from? it's the game. it's this video game. because, you know, he had been deep into his broadcasting career when the game kind of hit its full stride. yeah, it took him by surprise. >> sandy, tell us a little bit about the documentary series and the origins of this game, which, you know, was not even destined necessarily to be a hit, forget the legend it became. >> well, the game is 40 years old practically, 35, 40 years old. we never thought it would come out. back in the late '80s john and i just thought this was a wacky guy who started a company called electronic arts and he had this idea for a computer game and he wanted to put john's name on it and he couldn't put all 22 players on the screen. it was something we never

thought would happen and to see it 35 years later where it's sold over 100 million units around the world it's just astonishing to see. i know john was very proud to have his name on it. >> eugene daniels, who played college football, more of an expert on the sport than i am has the next question. >> hey, mike, you know, this is making me think of playing tournaments in my college dorm while i was playing football with all the guys playing madden. when you think about how the game not just changed the gaming industry, but also how it's changed and influenced culture, how do you think about it as the son of madden here? >> you know, these things they start as little germs and then they grow and so when he started it it was the late '80s and like sandy alluded to, he was taking -- this guy tripp hawkins would ride with him on the trained and it was going to be a computer game.

i was always fighting to get bo jackson and walter peyton in techmo bowl. to know that dad's game was on a path to replace techmo bowl i thought was ambitious. the one time it struck me was when the players were playing tournaments and i'm scrolling through what i want to watch on a sunday afternoon and there's madden this, madden, madden. i had no idea what dad was up to. it had nothing to do with dad, it was -- you could watch these tournaments on tv. i was like, wow, that's -- this is getting pretty big. >> techmo bowl and techmo super bowl, the only other games that can hold a candle to the madden franchise. sandy, it was unlikely that the first game came out at all. talk to us about the struggles at the outset and did john madden need any convincing to do this? >> well, i think the biggest struggle was the technology part of it. it was a computer game, it came out on a floppy disc and the

biggest problem they had was getting 22 players on the screen. tripp said to us at one point we have a seven on seven, we are not going to have any linemen, people that know john madden, he was an offensive lineman when he played, and he said i'm not putting my name on a game unless there are 22 players. the biggest struggle was technology in the beginning and they were late, they were a couple of years late coming out with the game and i just remember john telling me, it's not going to happen. it doesn't matter what sort of deal we do with these people, the game is never going to come out. and when it finally did, you know, i think, you know, mike will attest to it, john was proud that it took years in the making, but it finally made it. really to have especially this week celebrating thanksgiving, having the documentary come out today, it's something that i know john is very proud of. >> certainly john madden so associated with thanksgiving and certainly this video game. all four episodes of the new

docuseries "it's in the game: madden nfl" are streaming now on prime video. mike madden and sandy montag, thank you both very much. welcome back. our next guests are two "new york times" best selling authors with two beloved detective characters who are both embarking on new adventures and two brand-new books. i know that's a little hard to follow but here they are, authors james patterson and mike lupica. patterson's new book is "the house of cross" it's the 33rd installment in the legendary alex cross series, while the other book is titled robert b. parker's hot property, the latest in the spencer detective series which was started by mike's good friend the late robert b. parker. mike and james, you have published four books -- >> i have my vanderbilt hat on today, by the way, since joe isn't there and since vanderbilt beat alabama. >> it's a safe space.

>> took me over 20 years. >> safe space to go vanderbilt here. willie is thrilled. we spent many minutes yesterday on alabama's defeat, we're going to try to set that aside today. >> i know. we watched. >> per orders of mr. scarborough. you guys published four books that you co-wrote together but this time you're here and what's become a bit of a tradition to talk about each other's new works. it's a strange cross-promotional buddy cop movie. so let's start here. >> cross-promotional, yeah. >> mike, why don't you start by telling us about james' new book. >> well, "house of cross" -- and the great thing about the alex cross books, spencer started back in the '70s, alex cross came along in the '90s and they have become two of the most iconic crime novel figures of all time, but he is still balancing job and family, and that to me has always been the foundation of the alex cross books. if anybody is watching the new cross series on prime video,

you're going to want to read this book and then you're going to want to go back and finish cross because hodge has become a great character and all i can tell you about the new cross novel is jim has decided to kill some judges, jonathan. >> they deserved it. >> judges are dropping like flies at the beginning of this book. >> you know, one of the weird things is way back when -- parker won best first novel -- best novel and i won best first novel the same day, which is kind of weird. this is for the edgar awards. that's when i met parker and i forgot the name of the spark, i read all the books and he said, spencer, like the poet, kid. that was my initial thing with parker. the thing about "hot property" mike's book is after parker died for a couple of books i stopped reading the spencer books and i loved them, i had read all of

them. when mike came back he has the voice, the dialogue is right now. that was the hallmark of parker's writing. dialogue was just spectacularly good. funny and, you know, whatever and the new book, it's got all your favorites, you know. susan silverman, the love of his life is there. it's a tir rifk book. i love you. >> you have done a great job selling each other's books which i have right here i should note. you guys have teamed up so much, are you working on another new one together? >> another two of them, actually. >> yeah. >> of course. >> john, we have had two jane smith books about this feisty, incredible lawyer and the third one called "never say die" will come out next summer. renee zellweger has already signed up with hbo max to play jane smith on television. and because we never close, we also have a book that's already

ready for 2026. john, i'm just working like this because i'm constantly fearful that he will just take on artificial intelligence as a co-writer and it will just said patterson and ai on the cover. so that's why i'm like a hamster on a wheel working with this guy. >> fear is a good motivation. they are the two of the most productive people in the business. so, again, james' new book "the house of cross" on sale now and mike's new book "robert b. parker's hot property." also the same. thank you guys. happy thanksgiving. always fun to talk to you. >> thank you. thank you. coming up, we will take a look at the new movie "conclave" which tells the story of cardinals who must select a new pope while uncovering secrets and scandals of the candidates set to replace them. we will speak with six-time emmy award winning actor john lit goe and the film's director about their new thriller.

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the pope is dead. the throne is vacant. ♪♪ >> what happened? >> they say heart attack. >> you know how rumor spreads and one and a quarter billion souls watching. >> it seems the responsibility for the conclave falls upon you. >> the supervision of the selection, this is a duty i never thought i would have to perform. they are sequestered and they must be shielded from all news that may influence their judgment. do you understand? >> a look at the new movie "conclave" which is based on the best selling novel by author robert harris. the film features an all star cast led by academy award

nominated actor ralph fiennes and takes a thrilling look behind the walls of the vatican from one of the world's most secretive yet consequential decision-making processes on the globe. electing a new pope. >> this is already getting five stars from barnicle, which is the equivalent of like ralph -- of rex reed calls it bofo. >> joining us now emmy, tony and golden globe award winning actor john lythgoe and the director and executive producer of "conclave" edward berger. good to have you both with us on the show. >> so great to have you here. john, i want to start with you and the duality that is so fascinating. my mom was a devout christian, she also had a masters in music. she was an organist and choir director in churches her entire life and she said, joey, if you ever want to lose your religion, just work at a church.

there's this duality here in the movie where, you know, between the spiritual goals, but also the very human failings and frailties. talk about that friction and how it really adds such an important dramatic impact to this. >> well, that's -- that's a very good question, joe. i mean, it is a movie about the college of cardinals picking a pope. so it's an electoral process and it takes you right into all the maneuverings, the fact that it is men of god, cardinals, all bickering with all of their jealousies and greed and deviousness and cowardice. all of these extremely human qualities, all right out on the table, but they are in conclave, sequestered in the sistine

chapel. so that's the duality you're talking about. you used exactly the right word for the entire transaction. >> and your character seems a bit more motivated by the secular than the spiritual. the ambition, right? >> yes. i mean, he -- if there was a business manager of the college of cardinals, it would be cardinal tremblay. he knows where all the bodies are hidden. he knows where all the bills were paid. so he's automatically somewhat -- you're very ready to suspect him in my opinion. i mean, he was my character, so i'm very devoted to him and loyal to him. i think he's a very good man and i want you to watch the film with that in mind. >> we shall. we will come in with no preconceived notions. edward, tell us about the origins of this. it's something that, you know, the world is used to watching for the white or the black smoke to come up from that chimney but

don't know much else about what happens in the sistine chapel. tell us how you've decided to bring that to life. >> i felt there was a really interesting mysterious process that i wanted to look -- i wanted to look behind the doors of that and obviously no cardinal will ever tell you what happens. no person high up in the catholic church will ever tell you, but you have your ways of interpreting it, there's research that you can do. and i felt it was a very interesting political thriller that takes us in a way that we haven't seen before. takes us ie haven't seen before. >> and they will get out there knives and try to get their job and it could take place in washington, d.c. but i feel like we haven't seen the vatican with these men bickering in that position and falling apart over it. >> and you do a lot of book to film adaptations, explain why.

>> well, i always feel, there's a lot of intellectual backbone to it and if there is a novelist, they tend to spend a long time over their books, they do a lot of research, robert harris is a great novelist, he knows his way around rome and the vatican and we profit from that intellectual work that has been done, all of that thinking that flows into the book and generally has quite a bit of depth, more than you can just come to when you write a screenplay on your own. anyway, that is not a general rule, a lot of books have that intellectual depth. >> and john, you guys don't really shy away in this film, i think it is important to talk about not only the frailties and failings of humans, who after all run churches but what we see in the catholic church,

some of the scandal, some of the racial prejudice, the prejudice towards women and also of course the scandal that rocked the church for so long. >> yes, they are all men, human beings, sometimes they forget that about themselves, they think they are above all of that. and yes, there's all varieties of behaviors among all these people, among other things, the college of cardinals is a very international group, they speak a whole spectrum of different languages and languages put to work, you will hear four or five different languages spoken. we make lots of use of subtitles, that is how realistic the film is, if the film was made 50 years ago we would all be speaking in english, polish, spanish,

italian accents. but edward has been meticulous about making every detail, every granule aspect of this absolutely authentic and that includes human behavior. >> and i would guess, edward, the greatest challenge is making it as accurate as possible is that it is one of the most secretive processes in one of the most powerful organizations that has had the longest history on earth, how did you peek behind the curtain? how do you take viewers behind the curtain, to see this most secretive of process? >> well, that was a very important aspect of making the movie, bringing the audience close to this process of showing them all the details and there's one person basically a professor of liturgy and philosophy who

helped us every day, he knew a lot about the ways they vote, the way they hold the ballots, the prayers, he knew a lot about it and there were cornerstones of authenticity that we could hammer into the ground and that was our playing field, and in between, sometimes i would ask francesca, how did they do this, and he said well, it could be this, could be that. so we are not claiming that anything is absolutely right but we are trying to hit the truth as much as possible. >> yes, for all human beings and for all actors. >> the new movie, conclave is in theaters nationwide and streaming now, edward berger and john lithgow, thank you very much for showing us. coming up, the new documentary tells the story of

a disability rights advocate, as she takes a 12 day journey through the grand canyon. the subject of the film joins us along with one of the film's executive producers, chelsea clear. chelsea clear.

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most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling where injected, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. ask your doctor about shingrix today. >> these are the steepest steps. prepare yourself. >> we will cross the grand canyon on horseback for the

first three days and draft along the colorado river for 150 miles, this is a very rare disease, physically your body goes down and your drive goes up. there's always the risk that people are not going to agree with what you're doing. but so often we don't even try something because we are afraid. >> the grand canyon doesn't allow for a set plan, a lot can go wrong. >> i don't want to put somebody's life at risk on my watch. >> the best way to be a beacon for my community is to have the courage to just be me. >> that is a look at the documentary, facing the falls, presented early this morning, the film follows a disability rights advocate as she embarks on a courageous and dangerous journey across the grand canyon and she joins us now, with one of the films executive

producers, chelsea clinton. it is always exciting to see you, but i'm excited to see you, cara. what an extraordinary trip you took to the grand canyon, you were just saying, this has been something like 10 years in the making. what gave you such an audacious idea as to make a 12 day trek through the canyon? >> i moved to the united states, after living in 11 glorious countries around the world, and i came to the u.s. and i thought what is more grand than the grand canyon? and i found out it is a wonder of the world, this isn't something that i just want to go take a photograph of the edge, but just get into it, but i couldn't walk unassisted at the time so we had to be creative in how we were going to make this happen. >> one of the things you did, which was amazing, because i took a donkey part of the way down and it terrified me and you said you wanted to learn to

write a mustang, tell me about that. >> i know i wouldn't be able to walk down, and i didn't want to ride a donkey, so i contacted a local therapeutic program and asked if they would teach me how to ride, that was in 2014. i trained for four years but as i was training, we had to constantly adapt the equipment of riding the horse because my body was deteriorating and i was becoming weaker from head to toe. but we did it with a lot of teamwork and a lot of creative and innovative ways as people with disabilities have to do to make this happen. >> one of the great things about this film is that it is available to everyone. on youtube starting today, there's no barrier. >> it is available for free on youtube, with audio assistant technology, closed captions, we wanted anyone and everyone to see this film because she is

just extraordinary and certainly an inspiration, and an inspiration to everyone. >> this is some scenes from the film, showing you and your team battling those elements across the grand canyon, let's take a look. >> i'm terrified. >> i know you are. >> do you see the people ahead? >> take another step. and again. one more. >> hold on!

>> yeah! >> fantastic. >> didn't fall out of the boat, this was a difficult journey for somebody who doesn't have a disability, what gave you the strength to keep going? >> first and foremost, it is an adventure film so often you see a white male as the protagonist, people don't often consider that it is going to be a biracial woman with a disability, so there is the advocacy piece that often comes with somebody with an adult onset disability, we need to prove to ourselves that we are the same person but also proved to the world that we are the same person, so i think some of that performance was a driver which is a very ableist mind- set but also the teen, i had a wonderful crew around me for whom i trusted explicitly to keep us safe.

this project is about hundreds of people who have been involved and they very much were what drove me forward, i felt accountable to them and the disability community i was representing. >> chelsea, i know you and your mom in the production company see a lot of pictures, coming a lot across your desk, what really struck you when you first heard it? >> cara is so extraordinary, which is evident in our conversation here and from the clips and my mom and i are deeply compelled and committed to platforming and amplifying the stories of extraordinarily brave and inspiring people, particularly women and i think that carol's story of resilience and the constant, as you will see in the film, persistence and problem solving, we may have to figure out a different way to do this to get down, through, up and over, i think there are people who are able-bodied to think,

well if she did this, what could we do? what must we do? which is a question a lot of us are asking ourselves these days. >> it is called "facing the falls" and free right now on youtube, anybody can go watch it right now. cara yar khan , and executive producer, chelsea clinton, great to see you both. >> thank you. >> good morning, it is sunday, december 29th, i'm alicia menendez, as we prepare for a new year, with a