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>> hi there everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we are so happy you are here. there is a lot to get to today including the political civil war already threatening to tear apart trump's group on the republican party. it's one that hits elon musk against steve and and it's, by the way, even before donald trump is inaugurated. there's also news about a stinging defeat for donald trump in his ongoing legal battle with the jean carroll. we begin with celebration, a celebration of a life well lived . we are talking of course about former president jimmy carter, who passed away sunday at his family home in plains, georgia, at the age of 100 point jimmy carter's wife was the quintessential american dream, a peanut farmer who ascended to the white house, a nuclear engineer who brought a

plainspoken folksiness to our national politics, a man so guided by his faith and decency that after a brutal defeat to ronald reagan in the 1980 presidential contest, he forged a post-presidency that completely redefined what service to one's nation and your fellow man could look like. this weekend resident carter will be brought to atlanta, georgia, by motorcade where he will lie in repose at the carter center. on monday, january 6th, he will be flown to washington, d.c., where he will lie in state at the u.s. capitol and where thousands of mourners are expected to pay their respects to him point a state funeral at washington national cathedral will then be held on january 9th where former president carter will be eulogized by, among others, his longtime friend president joe biden. president carter will then be flown back to georgia, where he will be buried next to former first lady rosalynn carter, his wife of 77 years, in a family

plot next to a willow tree at the edge of a pond in the small town of plains, where they both grew up and spent most of their lives. it is worth noting that in accordance with federal law, president biden has ordered flags lowered to half staff for the next 30 days, meaning they will still be lowered on january 20th, when frump is inaugurated. in the long arc of history, jimmy carter has been many things. of course the 39th president of these united states, the nation's longest lived president, one of only four u.s. presidents to be awarded the nobel peace prize, a president who accomplished in one term more than printing many presidents accomplished in two point a man of service who dedicated himself to eradicating disease worldwide and to building houses here at home with habitat for humanity. he's a man of deep thief faith.

he taught sunday school for decades including while he served in the white house as president, and a man whose love for his wife is legendary. there 77 years of marriage is the longest of any presidential couple in history. he will also be remembered by history as a president who during his time in office referred to the challenges facing this great nation with a quiet wisdom, challenges that are all-too-familiar right now in 2024 point >> the struggle for human rights overrides all differences of color, or nation, or language. those who hunger for freedom, who thirst for human dignity, and who suffer for the sake of justice, they are the patriots of this cause. i believe with all my heart that america must always stand for these basic human rights at home and abroad. that is both our history and our destiny. america, did not invent human

rights. in a very real sense, it's the other way around. human rights invented america. ours was the first nation in the history of the world to be founded explicitly on such an idea. our social and political progress has been based on one fundamental principle -- the value and importance of the individual. the fundamental force that unites us is not kinship or place of origin, or religious preference. the love of liberty is a common blood that flows in our american veins. >> taken as a whole, his life is a portrait of a man who represents the very best this nation has to offer, a legacy as a public servant and a humanitarian. he was a beacon of decency, something his longtime friend president joe biden knows firsthand. >> america and the world, in my

view, lost a remarkable leader. he was a statesman and a humanitarian. jill and i lost a dear friend. i've been hanging out with jimmy carter for over 50 years. jimmy carter stands up as a model of what it means to live a life of meaning and purpose. a life of principle, faith, and humility. a life dedicated to others. decency, decency. everybody deserved a shot. anybody. one of the reasons why we are looked to by the rest of the world, the bulk of our nation, we've made out what our values are. we hold these truths to be self- evident. the rest of the world looks to us, looks to us, and he was a person to look to.

>> he was worth looking to. the immortal words of the reverend martin luther king jr., quote, only when it is dark enough can you see the stars. in this moment in our nation's history, jimmy carter's life and legacy shine especially bright. it's where we start today with my friend, our longtime nbc news colleague, former carter white house intern, i dear friend brian lyons is here. thank you so much for taking a break from all the things that occupied your post msnbc life to talk to us on this occasion. >> well hello, my friend. i miss you and thank you for thinking of me, and thank you for having me on. i will take your cue in your brilliant opening segment today, and call this a celebration of a life well lived. >> what does he mean today with all of the turns toward darkness, that if you go back

and look at some of his speeches, he tried so hard to level with the american people, and he wasn't always appreciated for doing so. but what does his life mean to you today? >> well, a life of decency, profound intellect, and i hope his intellect is not a quality that gets lost in the coverage that will come in these next several days. the author of 30 books. he just had this fiery, fiery brain. studied nuclear physics, let's not forget, and let's not forget, as well, in carter's case, he was a decent man who defeated a decent man, gerald ford, who just simply could not get the film of watergate and that era off of him. so this new, young crowd from georgia, of all places, emerged on the national stage. i think another thing i'm seeing in the coverage is that

he was our best ex-president, and i have two credit jonathan alter, a bona fide carter scholar and biographer, who appeared on this network yesterday in the minutes following word of president carter's death, who said that that up elevation, the best ex- president, carter found hurtful. he had no personal vanity but he was meaning about his reputation, his accomplishments, his presidency. the fact that he put solar panels on the roof of the white house before such a thing was even discussed in the public domain. so i think, yes, he had the best ex-president see in the history of all the men who have led our nation. but to your point, the accomplishments of his presidency, his personal crowning achievement, the camp david accords just would not have happened had there not been a man named jimmy carter

on earth, and that was a calling, let's not forget, that his own religion called him to. he thought piece in the middle east, as a christian american man, president of the united states, was his duty. >> his faith was something he wore so comfortably, which you don't always see in politics, in either party. that also makes him feel different, different from any figures on the stage these days. >> yes, and i'll throw the following hand grenade into this remembrance and say that the presidency of jimmy carter, his emergence as a national political figure was the first event that exposed the political support of american evangelicals as something more transactional than i think any of us wanted to believe or admit. there will never be a more

evangelical evangelical than jimmy carter. born again christian. taught bible study until his body failed him and he was forced to stop appearing with his small congregation in plains on sundays. the evangelical community instead went with a divorced hollywood act there. the rest, as we know, is history. the second hand grenade is that his piety combined with his hairshirt level of thrift, his flimsiness, the fact that he was wearing clothing in his last years on earth that had hung in the white house 45 years ago, the fact that he and mrs. carter kept an igloo cooler on the back porch of their modest planes, georgia house as an overflow during the holidays, if their refrigerator

got two full. he had no interest in physical affects. he had no interest in the trappings of the job, something he later admitted was a mistake, on his part. he d glorified the presidency to such a degree that i think that combined with his lack of political washington acumen, with his kind of lack of personal stature, when jimmy carter walked into the room, because he was shorter than most in height, it was possible to be at a white house reception and not know yet that he was there. part of that is his fault. he ordered them to stop playing hail to the chief when the president entered the room. he wanted to get us away from the nixon era imperial presidency, where nixon had outfitted the guards outside the west wing in ridiculous,

blissfully short-lived outfits and the like. jimmy carter wanted to be who he was, which was something very different entirely. >> brian williams, we miss you so much. flimsiness and hand grenades have never sort of hung together so poetically in my life. it's all telling a story of humility that's unrecognizable in today's politics. why do you think that is? >> our times, our eras have changed. social media has changed our society in ways that we don't -- we are living in a time of great historians. they are not yet caught up on the change we are living every day, from x to facebook, to instagram, to truth social, on and on and on. it has forced upon us an era of celebrity, where ordinary folks walking the earth every day

hereto for now have followers of their own. this is an intense and profound dynamic. it allows people, after a lifetime of celebrities being the people we would watch on television and in movies, massive public figures. we've entered the era where, you know, you, too, can be a thing in your own realm. that has changed everything. our politics have taken a rancid partisan turn. media is now available in all bite sized forms. you can wake up in america and watch only the network you agree with. that limits the scope of what you're going to get. and let's not forget how much of u.s. history this man was alive for. we are only 248 years old. we are talking about the death of a 100-year-old former

president, the first president born in a hospital. put it this way -- jimmy carter's father was born only 31 yearpaicularly unsure future we are all in this together, just as we were watching this young georgian take office and figuring out who our new president was back in 1976. >> how did you come to interning the carter white house? >> well it wasn't through my formidable college education. i had none, still don't, and i ran into a guy in washington, d.c. who was my age. he was a college student at catholic university, and he had to vacate his white house internship to attend to some family matters in st. louis. and i interviewed for it.

so supremely unqualified was i, i had a west wing all access pass. i had no business in that position. i did real work and enjoyed it. i owned exactly one blue blazer, which i purchased with my sears employee discount in middletown, new jersey. i wore it every day for a year. no one seemed to notice because it is the coin of the realm, the wrapping of all men in washington, d.c. it was fascinating. i had several encounters with president carter. usually either my hands or knees were shaking. i had the experience of hearing someone clear their throats behind me while doing xerox copies in the west wing. it happened to be vice president walter mondale. just a crazy chapter in my life and carter of course, in the years that followed, was the most surprised that my life had

resulted in any success, and got an enormous kick out of all of the times we encountered each other, journalist and former president, here and around the world. and he was always quite lovely to me. >> ryan, the way you describe him, i imagine he was a president who was, in some cases, probably more at ease around his own interns than some of the other heads of state or titans of business, or other dignitaries that came in. can you tell us about some of your encounters with the president, as you mentioned? >> yes. i think if he had a slogan to put on the door of the oval office, and it's no knock on him, it's just the way he was wired, it would be, be bright, be brief, be gone. he would look up from his desk. he would stop the conversation he was in to find out what fresh was awaiting him in the next interruption, and promptly go back to work. i think too little is made of

one biographical point about jimmy carter, nicole, and that is, in addition to being the only president to have graduated from annapolis, he was a submariner. so this man who studied nuclear physics also passed with flying colors the aptitude test required to be a submariner, and it calls for a loaner. it calls for an introvert. it calls for someone supremely self-motivated, but also good at close teamwork. it calls for someone who thrives on the company of himself, and a good book in the rack after his shift on a nuclear submarine. he was an officer on the uss los angeles and one of his great career honors was having the uss jimmy carter named for him. of all things, it is a unique, one-off, standalone submarine

in our fleet with a special section at midship's to conduct all kinds of unsavory, to our enemies, at least, special operations around the world. he was inordinately proud of that vessel and lived long enough, of course, to see it launched. but you know i think nervousness was the chief quality of especially us young ins and rookies who came into his presence and company. but he could also be just warm and charming. his secretary, susan cloud, outside the oval office, was the ultimate gatekeeper, and you could easily tell from susan, was he in residence, was he around, how was today, his mood, how frantic or easy-going was that day in the white house. >> brian williams, we miss you every day and every night and

the everyday news stories that we could cover together. it is such a treat to get to talk to you today. please don't be a stranger to us. >> longtime viewer, first-time caller. i'm watching. i'm doing my part out here in tvland. thanks, pal. >> i miss you, friend. thanks so much. we'll have much more over the course of the hour on the life and legacy of president jimmy carter, of his life-saving contributions to global health all around the world. his nearly 8 decades long love affair to former first lady rosalynn carter. our panel joins us next. also ahead, resident carter's reputation for candor and truthfulness, and the remarkable speech he gave 45 years ago that resonates more than ever today. we'll play some of it for you and later we'll take a closer look at the civil war currently engulfing donald trump's maga allies and how before he takes

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the noom program and the meds work hand in hand. i'm angelia and i've lost 17 pounds with noom. get started at noom.com >> delta airlines wading today with this tweet. , quote, every time jimmy carter flew delta he shook hands with each person on the plane, because that's who he was, someone who treated people as people. let's bring in our panel to help tell us why that's so extraordinary these days, chief white house correspondent for the new york times, peter baker is here. also joining us the president of the national action network, host of politic nation, the reverend al sharpton. with me at the table, democratic strategist and professor, political analyst basil's michael, your thoughts? >> i was talking about brian williams comments around religion and it wasn't just a

biographical point for him. he led with that throughout his political career and he actually credits the time he grew up, not in plains but in archery, georgia, and he would say around african-american families. he played with them. he went to church with them, he went to school with them and he also talked about how this african-american bishop, reverend william johnson, actually had a profound impact on shaping his life so as he's campaigning for both governor and recognizing that you've got george wallace in alabama sort of leaning into segregation and he's determining, like i need to move away from this, he leads us well with his faith. he also becomes president at a time, and i took this as critical, you mentioned 76 point the gallup polls that a third of america at that time considered themselves born- again. a third of america.

so he's becoming president at a time where after decades the evangelicals were not as engaged in politics but were becoming engaged. he entered it with a sort of pious optimism, coming off of vietnam and such, and developed these incredible relationships with people like vernon jordan and others to really usher in a civil rights agenda. it's extraordinary when you think about it because in his speech earlier, at the top of the show, you can see how that faith helps him with the language, whatever anger, whatever hurt you have today, i'm going to find a way to get you through that, and that was because of the deep faith that he had. >> it also undergirds all of his views about who we were and the humility, this profound humility that america didn't create human rights but human rights created america. just so powerful. >> very powerful and you must

remember the context of which the emergence of jimmy carter to be in president happened. in 1972, the election before the '76 election that he ran and won, the country had to choose between richard nixon and george mcgovern. the democratic party had gone to what was then considered the left. i remember it well. i was 17 years old. i was one of the youth directors for the campaign during those primaries, and george mcgovern was soundly defeated by richard nixon. but then watergate happened and we didn't get out of the vietnam war, so we were in the middle of a political and moral crisis and national crisis, when coming out from the south, deep south at that, this unknown governor from georgia named jimmy carter, who had all

of the stability, had all of the bearing of someone that was calm and deliberate, and was talking about he believes in faith, he literally calmed down a nation and i think that's why he beat gerald ford, because the republican party was in disarray because of watergate and vietnam. democratic party did not want to go what they considered to liberal then. he became the alternative, and he embraced it. the whole question of him and civil rights, not only did he have a great relation with vernon jordan, who was head of the national urban league at that time, he appointed one of the senior members of martin luther king's staff, andrew young. dr. king had only been killed less than 10 years before the '76 race. he appointed him to u.n. ambassador for the united states, which was unbelievable, and very controversial, and he made andy young a u.n. ambassador.

his education director, his education -- i should say education head at that time, cabinet member, joel califano funded reverend jesse jackson's education initiative. here is a guy from the deep south dealing with civil rights come a calling it human rights. he was very close to daddy king senior and coretta scott king, martin iii and i talked about it down through the years. he was as different as you could eat at a time we needed a difference. and lastly when you talk about his faith, every time i spoke with him, he would always say, al, i see you out there with your civil rights leadership. don't forget your preaching now, every sunday, i can't run a national organization and run a church, i saw you every sunday, he said you are praying, he meant this stuff. this was years after he was president. he lived and abided by what he talked about, and you just kind

of knew there was a presence about him that felt the authenticity of this man. >> peter baker, you share a byline on the obituary in the new york times. your thoughts. fill in some blanks that haven't been mentioned yet? >> there's so much to say about jimmy carter. that's the thing that's remarkable. for a one term president he left a pretty big mark. successes and failures, obviously. i think there is so much to discuss. what's remarkable of course is he had four years in the white house and during those four years as jonathan alter and kyle bird and others have written and really remarkable books in the last few years, he accomplished more than a lot of people remember. he created the department of education. he created the department of energy. he put solar panels on the roof of the white house because he saw the future of energy and climate being important. he secured the treaties that

turned the panama canal back over to panama, which is of course has now become an issue again with donald from. he signed an arms-control treaty with the soviets and recognized officially diplomatically, china for the first time, granted amnesty to vietnam draft dodgers and of course, most importantly, diplomatic achievement of our lifetime, probably, in the camp david middle east peace accords . big failures, as well. the iran hostage crisis obviously debilitated him. inflation sounds familiar, a big drag on his chances for reelection. the economy doing badly by the time he faced up against ronald reagan and that malaise speech. he didn't use the word malaise but the sense that there is a crisis of confidence gave him a sort of a dour personage on the world stage when americans prefer their leaders to be optimistic and to project hope and energy. so that was his time in office. what we talked about since in office is remarkable, too. of course unitarian work around the world, fighting disease,

making change. give one example. he set out in 1986 as the former president to combat a disease called guinea worm in africa. in 1986 there were 3.9 million cases of guinea worm. this year, up until november, there are seven recorded cases anywhere over the course of his post-presidency, a remarkable change. >> it's a remarkable model and you look at the post-presidency of people who came after. it's clear that he broke those barriers. i want to be sensitive to brian williams, not only being celebrated for his post- presidency but he was clearly a role model for presidents of both parties. >> just hearing that, i just thought about the days when i traveled with the clinton foundation on the hiv-aids initiative in the country, to talk about how to bring drug prices down and get those drugs to people with aids and hiv, and you realized that it is carter that really did drive that model for what the former leader of the free world could

do in the current world. >> that's the model for the clinton post president initiative and the bush presidency. peter baker and the reverend al sharpton, it's a privilege to have you on this topic, on this day. thank you so much for starting us off. still ahead for us, peter mentioned it. we're going to turn to president carter's most memorable speech, remarkable at the time, and as relevant as ever, right now, today. stay with us. stay with us. feels good to move. feel less joint pain, swelling and tenderness, back pain, and clearer skin, and help stop further joint damage with cosentyx. don't use if you're allergic to cosentyx. before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. an increased risk of infections, and lowered ability to fight them may occur, like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal, or viral infections. some were fatal. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or plan to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen. serious allergic reactions

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today as we look back on the life and the legacy of the 39th president of these united states, jimmy carter, we reflect on something that's already been mentioned, an address he gave to the country, to the nation, in july of 1979. it is what's known as his malaise speech, even though as peter baker said, he never used that word. in this address, president carter made an appeal to all americans, to every one of us, to look deeper into our souls as american citizens. it was remarkable at the time but also sounds like something that applies all too well to right now in this political climate today. >> i'm going to talk to you right now about a fundamental threat to american democracy. the threat is nearly invisible in ordinary ways. it is a crisis of confidence. it is a crisis that strikes at

the very heart and soul and spirit of our national will. we can see this crisis in the growing doubt about the meaning of our own lives and in the loss of a unity of purpose for our nation. the erosion of our confidence in the future. is threatening to destroy the social land the political fabric of america. there is a growing disrespect for government. and for churches. and for schools, the news media, and other institutions. this is not a message of happiness or reassurance, but it is the truth and it is a morning. little by little, we can and we must rebuild our confidence. we can spend until we empty our treasuries, and we may summon

all the wonders of science, but we can succeed only if we tap our greatest resources -- america's people, america's values, and america's confidence. >> joining our conversation, former republican strategist, political commentator, the founder of the warning newsletter and podcast, my friend steve schmidt is here. you flagged this for me at zero dark 30 this morning. i went back and read the transcript of the speech and pulled some chunks of it. talk about what you read about today, how this resonates with you right now. >> this is a profoundly important speech. it's good to be with you, nicole. henry kissinger, when he was opening up china, the relationship between the united states, he was reportedly having a dinner with deng xiaoping and a conversation about the french revolution, and henry kissinger asked the question, and deng xiaoping

made the point that it was too soon to tell how the french revolution turned out. and so, in that spirit, we should look at this jimmy carter speech, because this speech along with one that l.e.d.s out gave on the eve of the millennium in 1999, has a real claim to be the most important speech that was given in the last 50 years, in english, on american soil. this was a speech of deep, deep, profound meaning, that was a political millstone. the american people did not want to have a deep conversation. they did not want to do the introspection and what the american people chose is the mythology. part of this speech, as carter is getting ready to give it, he's advised to talk about john winthrop, the pilgrims, the shining city on the hill.

shining city on a hill, of course john kennedy alludes to it in his famous arabella speech in 1961. this becomes the mainstay of ronald reagan's campaign, the idea that jimmy carter rejects as frivolous for the moment, as not appropriate to the truth telling, becomes the cudgel with which his opponent beats him with. but when you go back today, from 2024, a quarter way into 21st century, it's a remarkable speech to read from a man who was born in a country that had 115 million people in 1924. when he was president we were 218 million people. we are a much bigger country today. 340 million of us. what this speech is about is connection and faith, faith in the country. it's a remarkable address and i

hope your audience will take time to listen to it and read it. it's worth it. it's a great address. >> since you flagged it for me this morning, i went back and looked at president obama's convention speech. we hear some echoes in president obama nodding to the isolation. it's almost an update. president carter talks about the gap between our citizens and our government has never been so wide. president obama at the democratic convention this summer talked about the isolation people feel, not just from our government but from one another. there is sort of the soft side of our politics, to use your words. trump took out a cudgel and has made a lot of people feel like they're gone forever. talk about why they don't work in the context of presidential contests, for carter or for harassing this year's contest. >> timing is an

underappreciated quality in politics. sometimes people don't want to hear what they don't want to hear until it becomes necessary to know the information. the life of jimmy carter lasted 100 years. it's a very long time. his presidency was in the middle of his life, and over the span of it he accomplished remarkable things including the eradication of the guinea worm, for example, massive amounts of suffering all over the world. when you judge jimmy carter's presidency, the one theme that you'll find over and over again is reconciliation. one of the things we are going to learn a lot more about in the next couple of days is the depth of the friendship between jimmy carter and gerald ford. they had the closest relationship among any former president, a real deep, genuine friendship, and gerald ford's eulogy for his friend jimmy

carter is going to be read by his son stephen ford at the funeral. it's going to be a real highlight. >> steve schmidt, it's great to see you. it's great to have your insight. >> good to see you. >> thank you so much for joining us today and we will post the transcript and as many clips as we can. when we come back, something very much in short supply since the carter era, truthfulness in our politics. we'll have that conversation next. conversation next.

nothing is more important than family. a family you're born into, a family you choose or a family you make. i'm padma lakshmi. i came to this country when i was four years old with my mother. we came here because it was a land of opportunity. but for many, that's not the case. immigrant families are being separated. black and brown families are torn apart by a broken legal system. lgbtq people suffer discrimination in adoption and health care.

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our civil liberties, and keep families together. i hope you'll join me in supporting the aclu today. because we the people means all of us. call or go online to my aclu.org to become a guardian of liberty today. feeling backed up and bloated? good thing metamucil fiber plus probiotics gummies work harder for your digestive system. with fiber to help promote gut health. and probiotics to help relieve occasional bloating. so you can feel your best. metamucil fiber plus probiotics gummies. >> i do not promise a quick way out of our nation's problems,

but the truth is that the only way out is an all out effort. what i do promise you is that i will lead our fight and i will enforce fairness in our struggle, and i will ensure honesty. and above all, i will act. >> that was president jimmy carter making his pledge to the american people of honesty, no matter what. it was a long, long way from where the country was when he took office with today's culture of rampant lion. party leaders ignoring the truth in a new book called beyond the big lie, the founder of the fact checking website will it affect bill adair examines what he calls the epidemic of political lion. why republicans do it more and how it could burn down our democracy.

he writes this, lying matters because it destabilizes our social fabric. lying matters because it threatens our democracy. lying matters because it endangers our health. lying matters because it cripples our discourse. with such an imbalanced assault on political parties and elected officials are unable to have adult conversations about the critical issues of our time. they can't agree on facts because one side denies the truth. bill adair joins us now. bill, i don't know that there is a more legitimate claim to must-read ahead of the inauguration than this point i was so glad you wrote it and so glad that you are here. i want to ask you this -- one thing that is clear since election day is that trump supporters don't believe him but trump's critics do, on the issue of weaponization of the government against political enemies, on the issue of mass deportations, on the issue of

ending birthright citizenship. you hear anecdotally in the polls that his supporters say he won't do any of that stuff, he's just going to boost the economy or get rid of inflation, which none of his policies actually do. have you ever seen that phenomenon before? >> it's really troubling, nicole, and we saw it during the campaign where so many of his supporters would say, oh, i know he's lying but you know that's trump and what i like about him is he's going to blow things up. and i think this speaks to a real erosion in the value of truth in our politics, and it's really worrisome. and i think this is something that jimmy carter understood, that truth matters, that honesty matters point jimmy carter was a guy who was so honest that in 1980 when 60 minutes asked him to assess his own presidency, he gave himself b's and c's. who does that today? you know, so here we are today

with this tremendous erosion in truth, and it's really worrisome, and as you alluded in the subtitle of my book, there is a real imbalance in our party. >> what is the fix? >> it's interesting and i think the fix in many ways, you could go back to what jimmy carter said in promising not to live. i think one of the fixes is to change how politicians regard the truth. now part of this is that people have to come along and people have to want the truth and i'm not sure how we accomplished that but i think politicians could make a big step toward this if they valued truth and if they began to value it in the same way that they valued things such as, say, low taxes. one thing i propose is a pledge

similar to what carter talked about. imagine that if politicians signed a pledge saying, i won't lie to you, and challenging their opponents to do the same thing. a very simple, simply worded pledge, the impact that could have. so i write about this in the book and say, if we were to try this, it might just have an impact. >> it sounds idealistic. i want to press you on it. i want to bring basil into it. i have to take a quick rake first. will you all stick around? >> you bet. >> we'll be right back. right b

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we are back with bill and basil. is it that simple, sign a pledge, or would democrats be the only ones that signed it and republicans continue to run amok? >> there is truth in words and truth in actions and jimmy carter absolutely did that. he had conviction and he did a good job because of it. when he became governor he said we need to end segregation. when he was in the white house he appointed more women and people of color to the bench than any president to that point combined. so when you think about the way that he lived in the way that he expressed his religious beliefs and humanity into policy, you have to be that convicted to do it and to be able to stand up. the point of that malaise speech on the he was losing evangelicals because they were upset at him for the moves he was making, and he knew that, and sensed that tension. i would love for our leaders to

be able to take that pledge and now it seems like it's short supply. >> the lying is both the cause and the symptom for our democracy. how do you get it as the cause? because is what you alluded to, a public that doesn't demand character from its leaders. >> i think we need leadership that as basil was alluding, takes this as an important cause and says this is going to be an important issue for me. this is one of my core principles and i will not lie to you, and makes this a cornerstone of their plan going forward. and i don't know that that necessarily has to be the democratic artie. i think people are ready for truth. i think people are ready for honesty. i don't think that necessarily

has -- although my book talks about it is definitely the republican party that lies a lot more than the democratic party, but it doesn't have to be that way. >> republicans do it more, and how it could burn down our democracy, as we tiptoe toward inauguration, we are going to be calling on you often. bill adair, thank you very much for joining us. basil, thank you for staying the whole hour with us. still ahead for us, trump's maga movement is already engulfed in a hot war, a brutal political fight hitting really the two political gladiators against each other, elon musk on one side and steve bannon on the other. we'll tell you about it. the next hour of deadline white house starts after a very short break. short break.

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♪♪ let me repeat this, the h-1v visa program is a total and

complete scam to destroy the american worker. oh, this is an op, can't we have a group hug? no. either learn to fight or get the hell off the battlefield. >> it's the eff the group hug for the maga movement. it was just a matter of not if but when. the fact that donald trump's two most prominent supporters are already engaged in an ugly public civil war before donald trump has stepped foot close to the oval office again is -- riveting? instructive? least surprising thing to happen so far? i don't know. for today's purposes, we'll call it a lesson in what happens when a political movement is grounded not in a set of policies or even a ideology that recognizable, but in one person.

the central tension this afternoon is around the issue of immigration as it often is in today's republican party. specifically the work permits that allow companies in the united states to bring in foreign workers, talent not available here in their view for specialized roles on a short-term basis, easily renewed. in one corner of the political smackdown is the guy you just saw, steve bannon, aligned with the laura looumers of the world who insist american jobs are for american workers, including these jobs. the other corner, other maga titans like vivek ramaswamy and elon musk who at one time worked in the country on an h-1b visa. they maintain an american emphasis on mediocrity over

excellence, end quote, has created a need for additional high-skilled labor you can only get from other countries and you need the visa. musk called some trump supporters contemptable fools over the matter. things got so heated that trump had to mediate. he weighed in in the "new york post," saying he quote always liked these visas. whether that settled the issue or if this is even the visa he thinks it is, it's a sign of what's to come. this is not a discrete, one-off dispute. this is the kind of core tension you get in your party when you do as trump has done, taken a dynamic free market capitalist party and infused it with backward looking reactionary philosophy. we'll see it with economic

regulation, trade, technology policy, labor policy, housing policy, so on. and where we start. former chief republican strategist, senior adviser to the lincoln project, and professor at new york university, and with me for the hour, distinguished scholar at princeton. start with the personalities. love him or loathe him, steve bannon is the guy that went to jail for donald trump. i would never bet against steve bannon. weigh in on the sort of brutality and public nature of this very early, very vicious fight between steve bannon and elon musk. >> yeah. it's absolutely delicious to watch. were it not so impactful for the future of the country, you could laugh at it.

bannon is a guy who has defined himself as a thug, and thugs must do thuggish things. i think elon musk has no idea what he's getting into it, getting into a fight with steve bannon over all of this. i suspect bannon thinks about this. there's a good chance, a lot of reporting that elon musk was not a student when he got a visa, went through the process of becoming a nationalized citizen he put false information on the document. if that's true, that's grounds for revoking citizenship. it happens all the time. under trump, that would mean deporting musk and his children. you could make a point that the reason he's so obsessed with immigration is he knows this. so i think that in the heart and sole of maga out there, i'm with you, i would not bet against steve bannon.

>> i want to deal with the substance of this and promise to do that. because for trump it's never about the substance, stay with the leading men in trump's life with you, stuart stevens. the idea that elon musk is the alpha only exists in a world where trump can be bought. what's so amazing to me is that trumpism has always been transactional for trump, but we've never seen a public display of someone else getting to grift off trump's presidency. elon musk feels like the beta for that, a real test case. how do you think that's going to go? >> you know, what elon musk has discovered very quickly, smart guy, what every foreign intelligence agency discovered about donald trump. if you pet him, he'll follow you home. that's all he cares about. he desperately needs approval

from people like elon musk. he's what he pretends to be, the wealthiest person in the world. this is what donald trump would like to be. getting approval from that person means a lot to donald trump. goes back to he's the guy from queens. true statement. guy from queens out on bail, of course he wants approval from the richest man in the world. and steve bannon, he's already had fights with bannon before, called him a slob, which he is. and a weird guy. but bannon has proven to be very, very loyal. and i don't think at the end of the day that musk is going to be that loyal to trump. he cares about his own business, and he has a lot of other interests in this besides being close to donald trump. >> i do promise to get to the substance of it, we spent a lot of time on immigration policy, promises to be one of the

central policy divides. but there are so many layers to this fight and i thought about our conversations about american autocracy and the oligarchy. steve bannon, feels like a piece in the bannon grenade he threw at musk's face that is antioligarchy, that wants to pull maga back to what bannon views as its roots. how do you see this public feud? >> first of all, we know many autocrats follow something called divide and rule. if feuds break out among the top people, they use them to their benefit so that the underlings fight it out, and they remain supreme. trump may have decided one side or the other, but i'm sure part of him likes this. the other thing is yes, it's --

we can study these schisms and divides for what they reveal about the contradictions and hypocrisies of the incoming administration. when mike collins, a maga stalwart, said if we have deficiencies in tech sector we shouldn't solve it through immigration but through education. but they're going to be decimating the department of education. whether they're maga or musk, they're not interested in improving the betterment of the american worker through education. they're interested in doing policies like privatization that we know from history are horrible for the average person. and the person who created jobs to lift up the american worker was president joe biden and vice

president harris. so we can study these wars going on for what they reveal about the hypocrisy of the administration that's about to take hold. >> i mean, i think the study of maga is essential to defeat maga. if you want to go to the country in four years with a political movement that defeats maga, you have to understand maga. to me this is a story that, as stuart said, the personalities and conflict, you just can't look away, right? but the idea that one figure, i think ban in this case, is trying to preserve something that to him as a maga enforcer is -- i don't know the vocabulary, precious? the anti-immigration view has to be pure? to be against these visas offered is in direct conflict with trump's core promise of a

robust economy. what musk represents is american businesses feel they can't prosper and thrive without access to these visas. the study of maga to be able to defeat t is understanding where the weak links are. this is clearly going to be one of them. >> this is a good point but requires truth telling about the republican party in its modern iteration. corporatist, libertarian and nativist. >> i got to write that down. >> this is a really important point. always had three components. ronald reagan was able to balance them in interesting sorts of way. plutocrat in elon musk. greed, pulling -- advancing his interests. and right-wing populism. right-wing populism that sometimes is expressed in terms

of emphasis on the american worker but takes the form of xenophobe 86, nativism and hatred. we have the collision of greed and hatred in front of us. that's the heart of trumpism and magaism. it's always been greed, selfish and hatred. now it's in full view. >> what's amazing about your articulation, it's two tarantulas in a bowl, there's nobody to root for. watching this ugly collision, musk arguing for his own bottom line and bannon for the ideologies at the root of the nativist underbelly. but from the outside what you have to study is what is exposes about the movement's vulnerabilities. >> absolutely. you can have robert reich, former secretary of labor agreeing with ban about the suspicion around h-1b visas

because they're both concerned about the american worker from their vantage points. but bannon it carries forward the ugliness of who should be center of our imaginations. we don't need all the indians coming. it's right-wing versus left-wing populism. you have to understand the fault lines. as corporatists pursue their interests, everyday workers, white, black, green or yellow, will take it on the chin. >> there will be establishment republicans who latch on to musk in this fight because they want what he wants. doesn't make it benevolent. >> the usual currents of trumpism are at play here.

if for some streak of nature swedish models were the best engineers in the world and would come here, instead of assuming a bunch of non-whites. i think steve bannon would be all for that, so would donald trump. what steve bannon has to his advantage here is an emotional argument. musk has an intellectual argument. you can carry out the bannon argument that's based upon fear, and maga is all based upon a zero-sum world. this idea at the heart of the party we used to belong to and very much at the heart of the definition of america. that you could expand, more brings more. there's not a finite limit of resources. and that's absolutely true when you look at the great tech companies in america, they're

all benefitting from immigration on multiple levels. steve jobs' dad was syrian. so you know, it is disturbing in one sense, and that elon musk is right here on the policy. >> yeah. >> sort of painful, but you know, there is no coherent theory of government as we've said over and over. and when you don't have a theory of government, it's back to how one person feels at one moment when he wakes up. it's a difficult way to run the world's most powerful country. >> and ruth, you hit the nail on the head that trump is reveling in all of it. i want to make sure we don't cover the brink of a government shutdown as a story separate from the fight over h-1b visas. they're the same story. trump doesn't believe in

anything, he's just weighing the power brokers in front of him. he doesn't care about shutting down the government, or politically decapitating mike johnson, i think today he threw him a lifeline, next will be fighting with him again. nothing matters. the brutality of the fight within maga world. this is what elon musk tweeted -- the reason i'm in america along with so many critical people who built spacex, tesla and hundreds of companies that made america strong is because of h-1b. take a big step back and eff yourself in the face. i will go to war with that. i believe steve bannon had a lot of time in his jail cell to comprehend what war under trump looks like. but that's the red flag that

elon musk waved in front of maga people that disagreed with this. this is a policy that democratic and republican politicians have had the same policy on for years. but the crude and public nature of this feud, why is it an element? >> you know, steve bannon might be officially more thuggish and went to jail, but this is completely that tweet you showed, is thuggish rhetoric and behavior, threatening in that way. you know, at the core of this is a kind of nihilism about maga, putting musk in this. when you're so transactional, so opportunistic that you don't really believe in anything, as you were saying before, and trump certainly is in this

category, you have no values. everything becomes a kind of reduced to nihilism. could be the nihilism of violence, of threat. it's very dispiriting, but this is the way we respond to autocracy because they all get into nihilism. we respond by a political movement about values, honor, decency, integrity, excellence. that's what the harris campaign to some extent was trying to communicate. i think it's very telling that they're both thuggish, both bannon and musk. both take positions that are definitely racist. and in some ways they have more in common than -- they're certainly not for democracy or freedoms or agreeing to disagree. >> no one is going anywhere.

there's a lot more to tell you about, including musk aligning himself with some real extremists in germany. we'll also have more on the clash inside maga world threatening to tear apart donald trump's movement before he's inaugurated. and trump's promise to pursue his enemies continues in a public way as he threatens jail time for a woman's allegations that led him to be found liable before a jury. and something we can use in times of political anxiety, advice in how to stay centered and grounded in a world that seems anything about. don't go anywhere. about don't go anywhere. there's a... carl's way is the best way. client: is it? at schwab, how i choose to invest is up to me. driver: exactly! i can invest and trade on my own... client: yes, and let them manage some investments for me too. let's move on, shall we?

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that's what i do. is that love island? first of all, i think and i

know h-1b very well, and use it, and i shouldn't be allowed to use it. very bad for workers. i'm a businessman, i have to do what i think i have to do, and it's sitting there waiting for you, but it's very bad for business, bad and unfair for our workers and we should end it. >> so, all i can see is sara cooper cooper when he's talking. but he put out i have many h-1b visas on my properties, i've been a believer, i've used it many times. it's a great program, added trump who restricted access to worker visas in his administration. multiple choice, he has no idea what he's talking about. he knows and wants to be on all

sides of it. musk got to him. all of the above. >> all of the above. h-1b visas have been used to get cheap labor. the way trump and corporate america have exploited it. and it's driving the outcry, overdetermined by the deep-seated nativist position. trump is transactional, understands, he's throwing the immigration bomb all this time. he's in the cross hairs here, it's interesting how he navigates this. no easy resolution. one side of his interest is invested in exploiting it, other side is his political cash. >> his patrons. elon musk, read you reporting from "the washington post." germany accuses musk of trying

to influence election by backing far right efd. the government accused elon musk of trying to influence the upcoming election as he wrote an opinion piece doubling down on his support for the far right alternative for germany party. afd has soared in popularity since founding in 2013 largely because of anti-immigration and anti-establishment stance. it's named as a suspected extremist organization. regional branches in three german states are classified as confirmed right-wing extremist, end quote. >> something very odd is happening in american politics. there's a little group of white south african men that have assumed extraordinary power in america. i don't think it's an

exaggeration to think that the white south african ethos is consistent with living in a pluralistic american. musk, david saks. this is just weird. the reason they have power is because they have money. only reason they have vast wealth is because of the american system. they seem dead set to change the american system -- it's very odd. the right in america, our old party, has fallen in love with victor orban. all the movements out there at their core based on race, some sense of threatened national identity by people who were born in another country. and that is more understandable in europe than here in america because the whole idea of -- as ronald reagan said in his last

speech as president, anybody can come to america and be american. that's what is completely being challenged here by this group of south africans and donald trump. >> ruth, weigh in on this from your incredible perspective in the study of how countries careen toward autocracies. >> well, the geopolitical design of both musk and trump is pretty clear. it's to align america with far right and autocratic nations. now the transactional comes in where it's not about left and right because elon musk is very dependent on chinese largese, many of his cars are made in china. but in europe he's going all out. he's been very close to the neofascist prime minister of italy for years now.

and so backing this extremist party in germany, which has many neo-nazis in it, self-identified neo-nazis, is a very bold move but it's consistent with the design of supporting far right governance, racist, white christian, paranoia against those not white christian to save civilization. the same discourse as stephen miller gives us every day in the united states. so there's a lot of similarities there. and this kind of revolution of reaction, which is how mussolini defined fascism in the 1920s, that's a core theme of my boom "strongmen," and all of the movements that musk is condoning, supporting and using

his money and social media influence to prop up are part of this revolution of reaction against multi faith and multiracial societies, and we're seeing it unfold here. >> it's remarkable we're having this conversation. in the election that was had, this information was available, was known, i don't know we had a national conversation about all of this, at least not one that connected in a way that voters responded to. but i guess i'm old enough, maybe naive enough, to think this is not what the american people will want or not something that will wear well. >> i'm not sure. >> we'll see, right? >> the thing is, i hear stuart talking about this doesn't quite fit, but it actually does, when we think about our history. >> say more. >> there's a sense in which the

racial divisions, this idea of whiteness, has haunted the country since its founding. first immigration act of 1790, through the immigration history, this ideology of whiteness overdetermining what we think as democracy. back to the malay speech, quote, unquote, tell the truth about who we are. if we do, we understand why the soil is so rich for elon musk and his ideas to take root. >> because we don't want the truth. >> and in some segments of our society, we believe what he says. we know that tucker carlson was with orban, that there's been a element of the white supremist movement that's global and has been part of american politics since the election of obama in 2008 and before. we have a clear idea if we

understand who we are as a country, understand our history, this fits. it's not imported. it's us. >> but it's outlet sourced right? now going to south africa to get it. >> absolutely. and when you combine it. love the way talking about the crisis of confidence speech in the first hour, combined with the spiritual malaise he was talking about. human identity is no longer associated with what one does but what one owns. he's worried about the erosion of moral sense because we're so caught up in materialism. combine selfishness and greed with hatred and you get it. >> and put it on social media. >> and here we are. >> could go seven more hours. to be continued, maybe make this a monday thing. didn't get to how to fix it. thanks for the conversation. eddie sticks around. after the break, a loss for donald trump?

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if you worried that donald trump is too busy mediating between musk and bannon to deal with receipt tribution, you're .

fresh off $15 million settlement with abc news, he took aim at e. jean carroll by sharing a post on truth social for suggesting she could be jailed for allegedly lying. that is not what juries found. she's won two defamation lawsuits against donald trump. carroll's suits are the success stories in efforts to hold donald trump to account. and an appeals court has upheld the $5 million judgment against trump. the writer was awarded that sum last year after a jury found donald trump liable for sexually abusing and then defaming her. joining our conversation, former top prosecutor at the department of justice, andrew weissmann. your thoughts about sort of where trump is tucking in in his retribution visions, alluding to jail time for e. jean carroll. >> well, i think this is such an

interesting day. i think clearly what the former president and president-elect is doing is another shot across the bow to send a message to those people who might sue him for wrongs. e. jean carroll obviously was the victim here, as found by not one but two juries. that awarded her a sum of over $85 million. and found she was sexually assaulted. and so the claims against her by donald trump are unsupported by any facts, and in fact are contrary to the jury verdicts, and just legally, by the way, donald trump cannot relitigate that. he had the opportunity not once but twice. he could have testified and didn't. so this is a lot of

fearmongering, but it's effective fearmongering as we've seen in a variety of different contexts. i also think it's something to keep an eye on in terms of the courts. today's decision is frankly a routine decision. there was not much of a legal issue here. the court issued an unusually long opinion, probably to make sure this case was bulletproof in terms of an appeal. it was issued procurium, no one judge wrote it, i think also a sign of the effect of trump, no one judge bearing the brunt of repercussions. it remains to be seen whether the judicial system is going to hold up. today is a good sign, as you've been talking about, remains to be seen if it's going to last

for four more years. >> let me show you something that roberta kaplan said about the most central trait of donald trump in these situations, his lying. >> he's actually a very good defamation defendant, if you're planning to sue for defamation because he lies all the i'm as a matter of habit, about big things and small things. in this case we were able to show the lies about not only fake news, hoax, made-up story, but the famous photo where he mistook e. jean for marla maples, he then said the photo was blurry. it was not, it was classic donald trump. >> it feels like we're going to quickly get to a place where we're having to come on the air and defend what is true. and what i think is so

interesting there about what kaplan says, isn't necessarily the fact of donald trump lying is a matter of habit. we know that. it's that he will lie in front of things in front of his face. he said the picture was blurry. all you have to do is publish the not blurry photo. i think we'll find out if people believe their eyes and ears still. >> i think it is going to be a question of how much we are willing to, and our leaders and judges are willing to say the emperor has no clothes. this decision today is almost 80 pages of what -- this is a frivolous appeal, was wrong every way. normally it would not be 80 pages, it would be quite short and would have been issued i think a lot sooner.

so the issue is how much the judges, how much our political leaders, how much the media, how much companies -- all the people who have an ability to speak out are going to be willing to say white is white, black is black, there is such thing as gravity, science exists, polio is a disease that can be cured and go on and on. and just how much we're willing to do that is something that i think is going to be under severe challenge. and it's remarkable we're having this conversation, but we lived through an election which makes it necessary. >> let me end on this with you, andrew. it also seems to be the shield, right? if you still believe in the rule of law, and that feels scary because trump won, maybe the

smaller bite-sized piece is to say i still believe people trust their eyes and ears. i see reports of justice department lawyers looking for protection and exits. is donald trump so successful sowing faith in his false reality, the view on earth-2, that people are afraid to stand in their positions, hold the line and defend the truth? >> i may have told this story before, but i asked this question several years ago with my parents about the mccarthy era. joseph mccarthy era. comparing it to the situation we're in now, which was scarier. one of their comments was having lived through the joseph mccarthy era where there was this witch hunt for reds and communists that allegedly

infiltrated government and there were black lists, there was enormous fear and no one was speaking up. there was no sense of the fact there was a healthy group of americans who found this completely antithetical to who we are as a people. that is something i think really does differentiate the situation we're in now. the issue for me is whether we're going to continue to have that differentiation, where we're going to have people who are willing to stand up and be counted because the things you've been talking about in this show, today, and many, many other days, is the fact that it takes enormous backbone, and donald trump knows that. that is at least if not the intent, the effect of what he is

doing is to quiet people so they do feel what happened during the joseph mccarthy era. they didn't feel they could speak up. >> as long as he's mediating brawls between musk and bannon, we're going to be okay. andrew weissmann, thank you very much for the conversation. we appreciate you. when we come back, are you feeling anxious as the year comes to an end and the new year in which donald trump will be inaugurated as president again is upon us? if the answer is yes, you're not alone. how to combat unease and fears you have about the new year and new administration is our next conversation. don't go anywhere. nversation don't go anywhere.

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just before the new year officially starts in exactly three weeks before donald trump returns to the white house, many of us are looking for strategies to make sense of the political divisions and differences in our country, our neighborhoods, sometimes our families. divisions that feel as fraught and destructive as at any point in our country's history. here to help us think about it in ways that are honest but maybe not so anxiety inducing, dan harris, host and founder of the "10% happier" podcast, someone i foul on instagram for

wisdom and survival skills for the holidays. >> happy new year. >> i have three meditation apps and don't do any of them. how do you make yourself do the thing that makes you feel less of what you hate, anxiety, rooted in politics or anything else? >> how you get yourself to do this is the question? one way, do a lot of suffering. walking around miserable a lot, that can provide a very powerful incentive to do something about it. however, if you have all these meditation apps on your phone and don't find yourself actually meditating, i wouldn't argue that meditation is the only root to sanity and anxiety reduction. i think one great way to reduce your anxiety is to take action. there's an expression common among the meditation teachers i know, action absorbs anxiety.

doing something useful, whether it's politics, if your anxiety is a result of politics, maybe you can get involved, but if not, you can volunteer at a soup kitchen, animal shelter, even just be more useful to the people in your life and in that way, this generosity can reduce your anxiety. one last thing, before the buddha taught meditation to many people, he taught them generosity. >> what is the social media prescription? i consume your great content because i'm on social media, but most of what i consume does not fill me up the way your posts do. what is the guideline? some is good, so much is bad. >> unfortunately, there is no simple prescription here. simplest is probably off the table for many of us, which would be to never go on social

media. but i go on social media, you do too, we're modern people in the world and want to be engaged in the culture. at that point it's listening to yourself. this is where meditation can be helpful. it boosts your self-awareness. you might notice i'm on hour eight of doomscrolling on twitter, starting to type in all caps. maybe i should put the phone down. >> call for a lifeline. you sat in this chair as long time, i want to ask you your thoughts about this moment. quick break. we'll be right back. ht back.

what advice do you have for people like us who deliver the news, have to tell the truth but don't want to unnecessarily increase anyone's anxiety? >> to you guys and everybody watching, never worry alone. i love this phrase. don't go through this period of time, this tumultuous period of time as a solo endeavor. make it a team sport. call your mother, your friends, talk to people. there's a ton of evidence this is the way we'll get through this. >> you're my wing man. dan harris said so. >> the last paragraph of my substack, i said in 2025 let's make art that helps us make a

new world, let's write books that help us unsettle the settlement. write music that moves the soul, be more concerned about being decent and loving than being right and seen as virtuous. let us tell the truth and a bit more. >> i love that. i love you both. can we do this more often? every monday. >> as long as eddie is here i'll come back. >> it's a deal. dan harris, thank you. >> eddie, thanks for being here. another break. we'll be right back. ♪far-xi-ga♪ ♪far-xi-ga♪ ask your doctor about farxiga. are you looking for a walk-in tub, for you, or someone you love? ♪far-xi-ga♪ well, look no further. january is bath safety month. and for a limited time, when you purchase your brand-new safe step walk-in tub you'll receive a free safety package. and if you call today,

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. our coverage continues. in the meantime we want to take this opportunity to wish all of you a very, very happy new year! good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes.