they were enlivened when president carter revealed that while fishing on a georgia pond he had been menaced an amphibious rabbit. since rabbit top, nobody believed the president, not his staff or his georgia friends and not to mention the press which went crazy over the so- called killer rabbit. the white house said they had photographic proof but refused to release it for fear it would upstage the debate. this week, the photograph got leaked by the reagan white house. sure enough, there's the 39th president of the united states and leader of the free world fending off an attack from an animal that is a rabbit which is also swimming. as jimmy carter himself once said, i will never lie to you. >> despite the object of jokes about a killer rabbit from his two years, jimmy carter got the last laugh. that does it for me tonight. m. let me repeat this. the h-1b visa program is a total and complete scam.

to destroy the american worker. this is -- can't we all just get together and have a group hug? no. you either learn how to fight or get the hell of the battlefield. >> it's the maga movement. hi, it was a matter of when. not if but when. and yet the fact that donald trump's two most prominent supporters are already engaged in an ugly public civil war before trump this even stepped foot close to the oval office again. it's riveting? instructive? the least surprising thing to happen so far? today we will call it the lesson of what happens when a political movement is grounded not in a set of policies or even

ideology recognizable but in one person. the tension this afternoon around the issue of immigration as it so often is in the republican party, specifically the use of we will call work permits, h-1b visas allow companies in the united states to bring in born workers, talent not available here in their view for specialized roles on a short-term basis and easily renewed. in one corner of the smack down is the guy you just saw, steve bannon, aligned with laura loomer of the world and they insist that american jobs are for american workers including these jobs. the other corner, the other maga titans, people like vivek ramaswamy and elon musk, one time worked in this country on h-1b visa. they maintained that an american emphasis on their words, quote,

mediocrity of our excellence has created a need for additional high skilled labor, and you can only get them from other countries and you need these visas. musk went so far as to call some trump supporters, quote, contemptible fools over the matter. things got so heated that trump himself had to mediate. he weighed in and the new york post saying he, quote, has always liked these visas. whether it settles the issue or not or whether it's even the visa he thinks it is, it's unclear but it is a sign of what is to come. in the near times this, quote,, this is not a discrete one-off dispute. this is the kind of core tension you get in your party when you do as trump has done. taken a dynamic free-market capitalist party and infused it with protective backward looking reactionary philosophy. we will see this dispute when it comes to economic

regulation. trade. technology policy. labor and housing policy and so on. it's where we start with some of our favorite experts. former chief republican strategist and senior adviser to the lincoln project, stuart stevens is here and joining as professor of history at new york university, ruth is back in with me at the table princeton university -- let me start with the personalities. love him or loathe him, steve bannon is the guy who went to jail for donald trump. i would never bet against steve bannon. weigh in on this sort of brutality and the public nature of this very early, very vicious fight between steve bannon and elon musk. >> yeah, it is delicious to watch if it weren't so impactful

for the future of the country. you could laugh at it. bannon is a guy who has defined himself as a thug and thugs must do the type things. elon musk has no idea what he's getting into when he gets in a fight in steve bannon over this. i suspect bannon thinks about this. there's a good chance, a lot of reporting, that elon musk was not a student when he got a visa and when he got -- went through the process of becoming a naturalized citizen, he put false information on that document. if that is true, that's grounds for revoking the citizenship. it happens all the time. then it would mean deporting musk and his children. you could make a case of why he's obsessed with immigration as he knows this. so, i think that in the heart and soul of maga out there, i

am with you, i would not bet against steve bannon. >> i want to deal with the substance of this. but because for trumpets never about the substance, want to stay with the leading men in trump's life with you, stuart stevens. the idea that elon musk is the alpha only exists in a world where trump can be bought and what is amazing to me is trumpism has always been transactional for trump. we have never seen the public display of someone else getting to grift off trump's presidency. elon musk feels like the beta for that. a real test case. how do you think that will go? >> when elon musk discovered quickly, he's a smart guy, is what every foreign intelligence agency discovered about donald trump. if you pet him, he will follow you home. that's all he cares about. he needs approval from people

like elon musk. elon musk is what he pretends to be. elon musk is the wealthiest person in the world. this is what donald trump would like to be. getting approval from that person, that means a lot to donald trump. it goes back to he is the guy from queens. it's a true statement. the guy from queens out on bail. of course he wants approval from the richest man in the world. steve bannon, you know, he had fights with steve bannon before. he called him a slot, which he is. he is a weird guy. bannon has proven to be very loyal. i don't think it the end of the day that musk will be loyal to trump. he cares about his own business. he has a lot of other interest in this besides being close to donald trump. >> ruth, i promise to get to the substance of it.

we spent a lot of time on immigration policy and it promises to be of divide but there's so many layers to this fight. i thought in our conversations about american autocracy and the oligarchy. steve bannon, it feels like a piece in the bannon grenade he threw at musk's face which is anti-oligarchy, that wants to pull maga back to what bannon, it's roots. how do you see this public feud? >> first of all, we know many autocrats follow something called divided rule. if feuds break out among the top people, they use them to their benefit so the underlings fight it out and they remain supreme. so trump have sided one side or

the other, but i'm sure part of him likes this. the other thing is we can study these schisms and divide for what they expose, what they reveal about the contradictions and hypocrisies of this coming administration when mike collins, maga stalwart, said, if we have deficiencies in our skilled tech sector, we shouldn't solve it through immigration but solve it through education. we know they will be decimating the department of education. they are not interested, whether they are maga or musk, they are not interested in improving the betterment of the american worker through education. they are interested in doing policies like privatization that we know from history are horrible for the average person.

the person who created jobs to lift up the american worker was president biden and vice president harris. we can study these wars going on for what they reveal about the hypocrisy of the administration that is about to take hold. >> i mean, i think the study of maga is essential to defeat maga. if you want to go to the country in four years with a political movement that is maga you have to study maga. the personalities and in conflict, you can't look away. the idea that one figure, and i think it's bannon in this case is trying to preserve something that to him as a maga enforcer is, the vocabulary to use, the anti-immigration you has to be pure. these visas being offered

is in direct conflict with trump's core promise which was a robust economy. what musk represents is american businesses, they can't prosper and thrive without access to these visas. again, the study of maga to be able to defeat it is understanding where the weak links are. this will be one of them. >> i think this is an important point but it requires truth telling about the republican party and its -- there have been these three elements. liberty dam -- libertarian and nativism. this is an important point in the sense that you have had these three components and ronald reagan was able to balance them interesting sorts away. we have the plutocrat in elon musk, greed, pulling, advancing interest and right-wing populism. right-wing populism that

sometimes is expressed in terms of emphasis in the american worker but it takes the form of xena phobia in the form of nativism and takes a form of hatred. we have the collision of greed and hatred in front of us. that's at the heart of trumpism, of maga. it's always been greed and selfish and always been hatred. now it's in full view. >> what is amazing about your articulation is its two tarantulas in the bowl. there's nobody to root for. you're watching this ugly collision where musk is arguing for his bottom line and bannon is arguing for the ideologies at the root of maga nativist underbelly. what you have to study from the outside is what it exposes about the movement's vulnerability. >> you have this convergence. you can have the former secretary of labor actually agreeing with bannon about the suspicion around h-1b visas.

they are both concerned about the american worker from vantage points. what's interesting is about bannon as a carries for this deep ugliness about who should be at the center of our imagination who we should care about. we don't need 5 million indians coming to the country. that's why it's right-wing populism as opposed to left- wing populism. what we have to do as you point out is to understand the fissures in the cracks and the faultlines. they will come into view even more so as a corporatists pursue their interests and every day ordinary workers whether white or black or green or yellow will take it on the chin. >> i think it reveals the ugliness of the opportunists in the republican party. there will be establishment republicans who latch onto musk because he wants what they want. that doesn't make it benevolent. >> i think the usual current of trumpism are at play.

if there was a freak of nature swedish models for the best engineers in the world and wanted to come here, assuming they will be a bunch of nonwhites, i think that steve bannon would be all for that and so what donald trump. what steve bannon has to his advantages an emotional argument. musk has the intellectual argument. you can carry out the bannon argument that's based upon fear. maga is based upon a zero-sum world. the idea that is at the heart of the party we used to belong to and very much at the heart of the definition of america that you can expand, the more brings more, there's not a finite limit of resources.

that is absolutely true when you look at the great tech companies in america, they are benefiting from immigration on multiple levels. steve jobs dad was syrian. it is disturbing in one sense that elon musk is right here on the policy. which is painful, but, you know, there's no coherent theory of government as we have said over and over. when you don't have a theory of government you are back to what you were saying, how one person feels that one moment when he wakes up and that's a difficult way to run the world's most powerful country. >> ruth, you hit it on the head that trump is reveling in all of it, and what i want to do is make sure we don't cover the brink of a government shutdown as a store separate over the fight over h-1b visas. trump doesn't believe in anything and he is weighing the

powerbrokers in front of him. he doesn't care but shutting down the government or care about politically decapitating mike johnson. today i believe he threw him a lifeline until he's mad at him again next week. nothing matters. i want to show you what the sort of brutality of the fight looks like within maga world. i don't know how many viewers are in elon musk's platform but this is what he tweeted. the reason i am in america along with critical people who built spacex, tesla, and hundreds of other companies that made america strong is because of h-1b. take a step back and f yourself in the face. elon musk wrote there. i will go to war on this issue the likes of which are cannot possibly comprehend. i believe steve bannon had lots of time in his jail cell to comprehend what war on behalf of trump looks like, but that is sort of the red flag that

elon musk waved in front of maga figures who disagree on this. and again on the policies is when the democratic and republican presidents in the same position on for many years. it does put trump at cross pressure with his pace. your thoughts on the crude and brutal nature of this very public feud. why is that an element? >> you know, steve bannon might be officially more thuggish and went to jail, but this is completely that too you showed us completely thuggish rhetoric and behavior, threatening in that way. you know, at the core of this is nihilism about maga and putting musk -- when you're so transactional and so

opportunistic that you don't believe in anything, as you were saying before and trump is in this category, you have no values. everything becomes a kind of reduced to a nihilism. that could be the nihilism of violence, threat, and it is dispiriting that this too is the way we respond to autocracy because all autocracies get in this nihilism. we respond by political movement that is about values, honor, decency, integrity, excellence, and that's what the harris campaign to some extent was trying to communicate. i think it is very telling that they are both thuggish, both bannon and musk, and they take positions that are definitely racist and in some ways they have more in common than they do, they certainly not for democracy and not for freedoms and not for agreeing to

disagree. >> no one is going anywhere. is more to tell you about including musk aligning himself with extremists over in germany. we will have more on this clash inside maga world threatening to tear apart trump's movement before he is inaugurated. trump's attempt to pursue his enemies in a public way as he threatens jail time for the woman is lawsuits against him led him to be found liable by a jury for sexually abuse and defamation. later, something we can all use during these times of political anxiety. advice on how to stay centered and grounded in a world that seems anything but. ng but.

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first of all, thank and i know the h-1b very well and it's something i frankly use and shouldn't be allowed to use. we shouldn't have it. very bad for workers and second of all it's important to say, i am a businessman and i have to do what i have to do. sitting there and waiting for you but is very bad. it's very bad for business in terms of -- it's bad for workers and unfair for workers and we should end it. >> so, eddie, all i can see is sarah cooper when he is talking about the h-1b. let me read the tweedy put out in the middle of the bannon and musk smacked him. i have many h-1b pieces on my property. i have been a believer in h-1b and used it many times. it's a great program added

trump who restricted access to -- and his administration. he has no flipping idea what he's talking about? he knows what he's talking about and wants to be on every side and musk got to it? >> what's interesting is it's not about tish you think they are engineers working at mar-a- lago? you think they are. what we know is h-1b visas have been used to get cheap labor. so we understand the way trump has exploited it as a businessman in the way corporate america exploited it. that is what's driving the populist outcry alongside the over determined by these deep- seated nativist positions. trump is transactional. he has been throwing the emigration ball all of this time. this is -- he is in the crosshairs and it will be interesting how he navigates

it. there's no resolution here. one side of his interest is exploiting it and the other side is his political cash. >> stuart stevens, elon musk lest anyone think he is enlightened on immigration, let me read this reporting. germany accuses musk of trying to influence the election by backing far right afd, germany's government accused elon musk of trying to influence the country's upcoming elections set for february after he wrote an opinion piece for german newspaper doubling down on his support for the far right alternative for germany party. the afd sort of popularity since its founding in 2013 largely because of its anti- migration it antiestablishment stance and the party has been designated by germany's domestic intelligence service as a, quote, suspected extremists organization while it's regional branches and three of germany's 16 states are classified as, quote, confirmed right wing extremist.

>> yeah, something odd has happened in american politics. there's a little group of white south african man that have assumed extraordinary power in america. i don't think it's an exaggeration to say the white south african they come from is consistent with what it is in a pluralistic america. you have musk, peter thiel, this is just weird. the reason they have powers because they have money. the only reason they have this vast wealth is because of the american system. they seem dead set to change the american system. it is very odd. our old party has fallen in love with this victor orban, all of these movements out there that are at their core, based on race and some sense of

threatened national identity by people who were born in another country. that is more understandable in europe than in america. the whole idea as ronald reagan said in his last speech as president that anybody can come to america and be american. that is what is being challenged here by this group of south africans and by donald trump. >> ruth, weigh in on this from your incredible perspective in the study of how countries careen toward autocracies. >> the geopolitical design is of both musk and trump is clear. it is to align america with far right and autocratic nations. the transactional comes in

where it's not about left and right because elon musk is dependent on chinese largess. many of his cars are made in china, but in europe, he is going all-out. he has been closed to the neofascist prime minister of italy giorgia meloni, for years. backing this extremist party in germany which has many neo- nazis in it, self identified neo-nazis is a bold move. it is consistent with this design of supporting far right governance, racist white christian paranoia for those who are against those not quite christian to save civilization. the same discourse as stephen miller gives us every day in the united states. there is a lot of similarities

there. this revolution of reaction which is how hamas illini defined net -- fascism, that's a core theme of my book strongmen. all of these movements that musk is condoning and supporting and using his money and social media influence to prop up are part of this revolution of reaction against multifaith and multiracial societies. we are seeing that, of course, unfold here. >> eddie, it's remarkable we are having this conversation that in the election it was had this information was available. it was known. i don't know we had a national conversation about all of this. at least not one that connected in a way that voters responded to. i guess i'm old enough and naove enough to think this is not what the american people

would want her it's not something that will wear well. >> i'm not sure. >> we will see. >> the thing is, i hear stories, this doesn't quite fit, but it actually does when you think of our history. there is a sense in which these racial divisions, this idea of whiteness has always haunted the country since its founding. just go to the -- 19 -- 1790. if we go through the emigration we see this ideology of whiteness determining the way we think of democracy. when we think of the history of the country, goes to the speech. tell the truth of who we are. if we tell the truth of who we are, then we understand why the soil is so rich for elon musk and his ideas to take root. >> they don't want the truth. >> we don't want the truth and some segments of our society,

we actually believe what he says. we know tucker carlson is with victor orban. we know there is an 11 of the white supremacist movement that has been part of american politics since the election of barack obama and before. we have a clear idea, if we understand who we are as a country, if we understand our history, that this fits. it's not imported. it is us. >> but it is outsourced because now we go to south africa to get it. >> and when you combine it and i love the way in which he talked about the crisis of confidence speech in the first hour, you combine it with the spiritual malaise he was talking about. he said human identity is no longer associated with what one does but what one owns. he is worried about the erosion of any moral sense because we are so caught up in materialism. selfishness and greed with hatred, -- >> and put it on social media.

>> here we are. >> oh, my god we could go for seven more hours. to be continued. we didn't even get to how we fix it. thank you so much for this conversation. to be continued. a loss for donald trump is a federal appeals court upholds a $5 million verdict in e. jean carroll's defamation case two days after trump threatens to go after her and social media. .

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if you're worried that trump was too busy mediating between musk and bannon to deal with retribution, you were wrong. he is far from done from his retribution tour office $50 million settlement with abc news, trump took aim at e. jean carroll by sharing a post on truth social that suggested she could be jailed for allegedly lying although that is not what juries found. e. jean carroll has won not one but two defamation lawsuits against donald trump. her suits are the success stories in efforts to hold donald trump to account and now today, an appeals court has upheld e. jean carroll's $5 million judgment against trump. they were awarded the sum after a jury found trump liable for sexually abusing and then defaming her.

joining our conversation, formative prosecutor at the department of justice, msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann is here. your thoughts about sort of where trump is tucking in in his retribution visions with alluding to jail time for e. jean carroll? >> well, i think it's an interesting day. i think clearly what the former president and president elect is doing is another shot across the bow to send a message to those people who might sue him for wrongs. e. jean carroll was the victim here as found by, as you said, not one but two juries. that it awarded her a some of over $85 million. and found she was sexually assaulted. and so, the claims against her

by donald trump are unsupported by any facts and in fact are contrary to the jury verdicts and just legally, by the way, donald trump cannot relitigate that. he had the opportunity not once but twice and he could've testified and did not. this is a lot of fear mongering, but it is effective fear mongering as we have seen in a variety of different contexts. i also think it is something to keep an eye on in terms of the courts. the decision today is a routine decision. there was not much of a legal issue. the court issued an unusually long opinion probably to make sure this case was bulletproof in terms of an appeal. it was issued per curiam, one judge wrote it. that also is a sign of the effective trump so no one judge was bearing the brunt of any

repercussions. it remains to be seen whether the judicial system will hold up , but today is a good sign that, as you've been talking about, remains to be seen whether it will last for four more years of this. >> andrew, let me show you something that roberta kaplan said about the most central trait of donald trump in these situations, his lying. >> he is actually a very good defamation defendant. if you're planning to sue for defamation because he lies all the time. lies as a matter of habit and about big things and small things. in this case, we were able to show the lies not only about it being fake news and a hoax and made up story, but even when i showed that famous photo where he mistook e. jean carroll for marla maples, when he realized

he made the mistake he then said the photo was blurry. it was not blurry but classic donald trump. >> it feels like we are going to quickly get to a place where we are having to come on the air and defend what is true. what i think is interesting there about what roberta kaplan said isn't necessarily the part about trump buying as a matter of habit, anyone who covers him knows that. it's that he will lie about things in front of his pace -- face. he said the picture was blurry and it was not blurry and you just need to publish the photo. i think what we will find out is if people believe their eyes and ears. >> i think it's going to be a question of how much you are willing to and our leaders and judges are willing to say that emperor has no clothes.

this decision today is almost 80 pages of what this is a frivolous appeal and was wrong in every way. normally, it would not be 80 pages. it would be quite short and would've been issued a lot sooner. and so, the issue is how much the judges and how much political leaders, how much the media, how much companies, all the people who have the ability to speak out are going to be willing to say white is white and black is black and there is a things such as gravity and science exists and polio is a disease that can be cured. you can go on and on. just how much we are willing to do that is something that, i think, will be under severe challenge. it is remarkable we are having this conversation that we lived

through an election that makes it necessary. >> let me end on this. it seems to be this shield, right? if you still believe in the rule of law and that feels scary because trump won, maybe the smaller bite sized piece is to say i still believe people trust their eyes and ears. i wonder as i see these reports of justice department lawyers looking for protection, do you think trump has been so successful in sowing faith and his false reality, the view on earth too, that people are afraid to sort of stand in their positions and hold the line and defend the truth? >> you know, i may have told the story before, but i asked this question several years ago of my parents about the mccarthy era, joseph mccarthy era. comparing it to this situation

we're in now and which was scarier. one of their comments was having lived through the joseph mccarthy era where there was this witch-hunt for reds and communists that allegedly infiltrated government and were -- was there was an enormous amount of fear and no one was speaking up. there was no sense of the fact that there was a healthy group of americans who found this completely antithetical to who we are as a people. that is something that i think really does differentiate the situation we are in now. the issue, for me, is whether we will continue to have that differentiation where we are going to have people who are willing to stand up and be counted because the things you

have been talking about in this show and today and many other days, is the fact that it takes enormous backbone and donald trump knows that. that is, if not the intent, the effect of what he is doing is to quiet people so they do feel what happened during the joseph mccarthy areas they didn't feel they could speak up. >> i think as long as he is mediating brawls between musk and bannon, we will be okay. andrew weissmann, thank you. when we come back, are you feeling anxious as the year comes to an end and a new year in which trump will be inaugurated as president again is upon us? if your answer is yes, you are not alone. how to combat any unease and fears you have about the new year and the new administration

is the next conversation. is th what is cirkul? cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul is your frosted treat with a sweet kick of confidence. cirkul is the effortless energy that gets you in the zone. cirkul, available at walmart and drinkcirkul.com.

just before the new year officially starts in three weeks before trump returns to the white house, many of us are looking for strategies to make sense of the political divisions and differences in our country, neighborhoods, members of our families. divisions of feel as fraught and destructive as any point in our country's history. here to help us think about it

in ways that are honest but maybe not anxiety inducing is our friend dan harris, the founder of the 10% happier podcast. someone i follow religiously on instagram with all your wisdom and your survival skills for the holidays. nice to see you, my friend. >> nice to be here. happy early new year to you. >> i have three meditation apps on my phone and i don't do any of them. how do you do the thing that makes you feel less of the thing you hate which is your anxiety whether rooted in politics or anything else? >> how do you get yourself to do this? one great way to motivate herself is to do suffering. if you are walking around miserable, that can provide a powerful incentive to do something about it. however, if you have these meditation apps on your phone and you don't find yourself actually meditating, i would

not argue that meditation is the only route to sanity and anxiety reduction. one great way to reduce your anxiety is to take action. it's an expression common among the meditation teachers is action absorbs anxiety. if you are doing something useful whether it has to do with politics, if your anxiety as a result of politics, maybe get involved in local politics. you can volunteer at a soup kitchen. you can volunteer at the animal shelter or be more useful to the people in your life. in that way, this generosity, can reduce your anxiety. just one last thing on this before the buddha taught meditation to many, he taught generosity. >> what is the social media prescription? i consume your content because i am on social

media but most of what i consume does not fill me up the way your posts do. what does a guideline? some is good but so much is bad. >> unfortunately, there is no simple prescription here. the symbolist is probably off the table for many which is to never go on social media. i go on social media and you do too. we are modern people and living in the world and want to be engaged with what's happening in the culture. at that point, it's listening to yourself. this is where meditation can be helpful because it boosts your self-awareness and you might notice, i am on our 8 doom scrolling on twitter and i'm typing in all caps. maybe i should put the phone down. >> that's when you call for a lifeline. you said -- you sat in this chair and skilled as anyone who does the job, and i want to ask

your thoughts at this moment. h

what advice do you have for people like us who deliver the news and have to tell the truth but don't want to increase anyone's anxiety? >> my advice to you and everybody watching is never worry alone. don't go through this period of

time, this period of time as a solo endeavor. it's a team sport. call your mother, talk to your friends. there's a ton of evidence that this is the way we will get through this. >> you are my wing man. dan harris, said so. >> the last paragraph of my substack today i said in 2025, let's make art that makes a new world. let's rank books that unsettle the sediment. let's make music that stirs the soul and take political positions that are not beholden to old ideologies and be more concerned about being decent and loving than being right and seen as virtuous. tell the truth and a bit more. >> i love the. i love you both. can we do this more often? every monday. thank you so much. we have been trying to do this for so long. thank you for being here for the hour. another break and we will

be right back. right back.

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. thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. our coverage continues. in the meantime, we want to take this opportunity to wish all of you a very, very happy new year. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. jimmy carter has died at the age of 100. in many ways his path to presidency was a surprising and remarkable one. in 1976 jimmy carter represented a stark break from the politics of richard nixon, the last