thank you for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are so grateful. our coverage continues and in the meantime we want to take this opportunity to wish all of you a very, very happy new year. happy holidays and thanks for sharing a little bit of the season with us. donald trump second term as president has not yet begun but in the 52 days since he was

elected, we have gotten a real preview of the chaos and the apparent corruption that the next four years is likely to bring, president-elect trump has already begun feeling is cabinet with a group of enablers and billionaires and cleaner enablers who have been either chosen because they will let trump do whatever he wants are chosen because they pay for the privilege of doing whatever they want. we've already seen one would be nomination go up in flames, his first pick for attorney general, matt gaetz you had to withdraw from consideration amid swirling allegations of sexual misconduct. now gates has denied all of those allegations but a bipartisan report from the house ethics committee released earlier this week found gate bias late test matt gaetz violated state and federal laws and other standards of conduct. bidding prostitution, statutory , illicit drug use, the provision of special favors and privileges and obstruction of congress that person, was

donald trump's picked to be the nation's top law enforcement official. and then there are the other embattled nominees, pete hegseth has been dogged by allegations of alcohol abuse and sexual misconduct which he denies, tulsi gabbard, has been accused of being a russian agent and is trump's pick for director of national intelligence, robert f kennedy, and anti-vaxxer chosen to run the department of health and human services. and then there's trump's closest ally, his largest donor, and now, his apparent copresident, elon musk, a man who has already brought the country to the brink of a government shutdown. last week musk with hard-line republicans into a frenzy, taking a bipartisan agreement to fund the government to the end of the year and threatening the shutter of the entire

federal government. that finally ended when house democrats bailed out republican speaker of the house mike johnson and provided the votes to fund the government despite the fact that democrats key priorities already agreed to by the speaker, that those priorities were ultimately tossed out. the rebellion that elon musk fomented among house republicans, that rebellion is not over. one week from today, house republicans will have to vote on who they want to be the next speaker in the next congress. house republicans have already proven themselves quite adept at devolving into a protracted speakership fight. remember in january of 2023, two years ago, it took them five days and 15 votes to finally elect a speaker, kevin mccarthy. but this time, the stakes are even higher and the majority is even narrower. if republicans do not choose a speaker with an three days of

this new congress, they may not be able to certify the election results on january sixth. you heard that currently, we may be barreling toward another january 6th election certification debacle, only this time, it's about whether republicans can get over the infighting in their own conference to certify a member of their own party as president of the united states. i mean, that's one way to kickoff 2025, happy new year. joining us now cohost tim miller and philip baum, thank you for being here. i mean, let me just survey both of you, philip, tim, who here believes that we are going to have a speaker on january 6th, i'll start with you, philip. >> oh yeah, i mean look, republicans in congress are focused on one thing and that's keeping donald trump happy and nothing is going to frustrate

trump more than if anything happens to delay his becoming president. i'm entirely confident even if it's on some sort of ad hoc hubble together, you get to be speaker for the next 48 hours thing, some sort of condition to it, they are very adept at coming up with a temporary solution and i am 100% confident that no one wants to be the one that made it so that donald trump's january 6th didn't go exactly the way he hoped for. >> 100% confidence from philip, this program is live but it will be available on tape. i just want to put it out there. >> i'll stand by it. >> okay, i applaud the confidence, tim, do you think republicans will prove themselves adept at making sure that donald trump can certify his election results? >> i don't know if i would use the word adept, but i think they will stumble into it. maybe 97%, but look, you know, the other option that you have to consider is maybe kamala

harris will have the courage, that's just a joke, to intervene, but look, these guys, mike johnson is a dead man walking politically speaking. he will probably survive the jan third vote because it's hard to beat somebody with nobody but he is managing a majority that is much smaller than the one kevin mccarthy couldn't manage. he's already proven incapable of managing it with trump not even in the presidency yet, and we have a debt ceiling fight coming in mid-january, they've only kicked the can for three months on government funding, that comes in march. it'll be a huge fight over extending the trump tax cuts that there's disagreement about, we already saw they are fighting over immigration, elon musk versus the nativist, the idea that johnson is capable of navigating this, i think it's preposterous, so mike johnson, his time is coming.

>> the idea that anybody is able to navigate this, i'm not saying that mike johnson is necessarily one of the great you know, speakers of all time, but it's just such an impossible position to find yourself in, when you have a hard right president with a hard right agenda, and the only way, philip, you know this well, the only way that things get past and the houses of democrats bailed republicans out and i guess my question is, does the new reality that democrats aren't going to be sort of staving off crises for a democratic president the way they have been in the biden years but it'll be trump that's holding the bag. that suggests to me that democrats may be less inclined to save republican butts when the rubber hits the road and i wonder what your expectations are for much getting done in the next congress, even if donald trump, you know, is the puppet master of the republican

conference. >> the idea that a whole lot is going to pass in congress, you are right, i think that the democrats will probably give them enough rope to hang themselves. it'll be obvious that they will be more than willing to let republicans step on their toys for a while -- but at the end of the day, the central dynamic is that the currency of the republican party at this point is attention and anger, and the reason you have this segment of the caucus that doesn't want to pass bills as they recognize they can derive more value from their audience by being obstructionist, and by saying no, we shouldn't fund the government, the democratic party is more i would say overwhelmingly if not entirely, dedicated to the idea that the government can do stuff so they step in to do it, not because they are trying to save johnson or trump, the government needs to be funded and they need to

do things. the republican party, there are more than a dozen people in the caucus that just don't believe that. they believe it's more important to be on fox news and all of these channels and be able to be the one saying i don't think the government should spend your money and they are not committed to the government in the same way. >> become downs to basic functionality, democrats may save the day but when trump who has said over and over again he intends to renew his tax cuts which disproportionately benefit the ultra-wealthy, when it comes time to pass that, that's not going to be done with democratic help but given the narrow majorities, how much in peril do you think his legislative agenda is, in reality? >> i think it really is, and this isn't just hoping for resistance, it's just an analysis of what's happening. i spent last week in phoenix for the turning point usa conference, it was a year and gathering of all the big bad of luminaries if you want to call them that, and these folks just don't agree on anything.

what animates them is blocking things, is opposing the democrats, opposing the globalists, so, they are all going to unify when you need every single republican vote, maybe you can give up one or two to pass the tax cuts. maybe they will give trump one thing at the beginning, if they want to not totally derail his presidency right out of the jump. republicans might be chaotic and self sabotaging but maybe they're not quite that self sabotaging maybe they can pull it together for one vote but it's hard to see much more passing after that, especially again, given the narrow majority of the house but also the senate. >> we had a brief nod to the gaetz report that came out.

i wonder how much you think, given the reality of how the complicated dynamics are in the house which in some ways may provide cover in the senate if they want to buck trump, the failure of matt gaetz, the controversy that is swirling around three of his very important pics including patentee hegseth kash patel in tulsi gabbard, trump is a lame- duck he's not going to be president again, and i wonder if that gives him coverage to republicans who don't actually want to walk the plank on some of the nonsense that trump has put out, either. >> one of the things we talked about since trump won the election is there's a lot of pressure on democrats and they have to pick their fights, but i've said it before, the republicans are in the same boat, they need to decide how much of their credibility they are willing to lend to these trump nominees and there are certain republicans who are from states not as far right as a lot of the states are who may be eyeballing the reelection in the future who may be willing to retire after this, you are not going to be willing to have their legacy be putting rfk jr. in charge of vaccines in the

united states. there will be a lot of pressure on the senate which, there have been a lot of republican senators recently who have made it harder for the republican party to do what it would like to do, and i think that'll continue. i think these fights are going to impose a cost on republicans and democrats and i'm not sure that all the -- that's just talking about the nomination fights. >> tim i won't ask you to make 100% positive predictions -- >> he won't, he's a chicken. >> in terms of trump's you know, the pics that he has announced, do you think all four of them make it in, do you think none of them make it in, do you have a thought at this hour of where they stand? >> i would suspect they will all make it, just because look,

if you just do the math, the republicans can afford to lose three votes, murkowski and collins, people keep saying, you haven't made a lot of money betting on susan college susan collins and her courage in the past. but then who, i got to talk to matt gaetz briefly, he told me john curran was adamant with him in private that he was not going to vote for him, and would never vote for him. so who knows maybe this guy john curtis will show motivation . >> i think we lost tim miller but he will come back because we are not letting him go, that's all i'm saying, we will take a quick break see, there he is. so tim, just hold that thought because we need you for another segment because coming up the president-elect has spent

christmas fantasizing about taking control of greenland and panama and canada, yes, really, that's what he was doing while you were roasting chestnuts, we will discuss the looming imperialism of a second trump administration but first a fight has broken out between maga and doge and it's not pretty. that's next. next. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. i really should be retired by now. wish i'd invested when i had the chance... to the moon! unbelievable. stop waiting. start investing. e*trade ® from morgan stanley. eggs make all our family moments better. especially when they're eggland's best. taste so fresh and amazing. deliciously superior nutrition, too. for us, it's eggs any style. as long as they're the best. eggland's best.

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nothing says happy holidays like a conservative civil war on the internet. the so-called doge faction led by elon musk and ramaswamy is now openly feuding with trump's

anti-immigrant maga wing. the infighting broke out after trump named and indian american venture capitalist to be his advisor on artificial intelligence. that immediately triggered a racially charged backlash from far right activists who said his appointment and his vocal support for green cards for highly skilled workers was in direct opposition to trump's agenda. musk and ramaswamy disagreed and fired back a separate post. thank you guys for joining me on this holiday night, carol, let me start with you. this puts trump in a remarkably awkward position, not just because two of his friends are fighting openly and on the

internet and with you know a deep divide between them t also trump may have to weigh in on a policy specific. do you have any sense of where he might land, any intuition about how he's going to side in this fight? >> you know, i think the best answer to the question, alex, is, past is prologue and when we watched trump as president in the first term, the most important question that he constantly asked his advisors whether it be his chief of staff or miller or steve bannon, what he asked over and over again in the early months of his presidency and then later, was, what about my base, how will this go with my base, so important to him, and i feel like one thing that is really critical to donald trump is making sure that base is happy and right now this little civil war is like a christmas present essentially, to people who have

been sort of waiting to see the first fractures in the donald trump second term, those who questioned how long elon musk withstand for some of the policies that really got trump his incredible popularity ratings in this first term. it's clear he's going to have to cool this down in some way and whether or not he steps in and makes a policy pronouncement, i'm not so sure but i think he is going to find a way to put some cold water on this as quickly as possible because he doesn't want his base talking about how donald trump is sort of listening to the circus master, elon musk, tell him how to bring in more foreign workers because americans have a culture of mediocrity as was implied in some of the postings by the back ramaswamy and elon musk in

the past couple of days. >> i want to get to those posts but the notion, newsflash, a billionaire immigrant tech bro is not trump space, at a point, if it's the elon musk shadow president thing or elon musk is not one of us thing, something is going to be the straw that takes the camels back. it's hard for me to imagine that at some point and maybe some point soon, trump is going to have to betray his friendship with musk. >> there's national tensions here, and it's appropriate i'm coming at you from my parents basement in order to understand all the characters because you have to be deep into the maga online world, to understand like the fractures and the fighting here. but trump added in this tech bro world, you have musk, you have rogen, you have tech folks like mark anderson, they sort of

play pretend on the culture war, they are happy to go along with it when it came to covid, happy to go along when it comes to trans-people, all of these other random things, you know, that sprout up on the right but this immigration issue is core to that tech -- that type of the audience, the steve bannon wing if you will, nativism and anti-immigrant is core to that. so this is a fight that you can't really find the common ground on. >> philip, i agree with tim, i mean this is not just some holiday kerfuffle, this is a significant, this is a real one, this is a big one and i'm old enough to remember, philip, the republican national convention when trump supporters had mass deportation now signs, this is the thing that gets them fired up.

how do you see, from the political perspective the cleave between the sort of wealthy tech bro, coastal republican elite, they do exist, and the maga base, how do you see that being translated into the halls of congress where they have to find funding for all of this? >> this gets to the question of how much power is donald trump going to have now that he's a lame-duck, now that his power is only going to be exerted in republican primaries, how much clout does that bring to bear, how much do republicans worry about that. my guess is they worry about that quite a bit. the divide that we are seeing here is fascinating and entirely predictable. the maga movement has a fundamental strain of this identity politics of white grievance, which you know, when you talk about these things, they are willing to talk about dei is a terrible thing but

this is really a question of, there are a lot of trump supporters that do not believe any immigrants should come to the country and have jobs that should be for americans. elon musk has a lot of people that he's hired, he has a lot of people who are working at tesla on work visas who he has a lot of respect for and he doesn't understand that there are immigrants that work in the agricultural field, this is another example of where musk is not really knowing what he's talking about, even for him, there's an inconsistency, he doesn't get that there's a similarity here and because of that, because you have this tension on immigration and identity broadly within the maga movement and you have musk who doesn't fully understand what he's talking about, then you get this tension and it's not clear that donald trump is

going to be able to pull everyone together because at some point republicans will understand, he is not the key to the future. >> carol, you mentioned ramaswamy and his tweets which get at the fundamental difference here, between the maga base and the doge coalition, i don't know how big it is beyond musk and ramaswamy but in a very long post on x, he said among other things, our american culture has -- singh trump's election hopefully marks the beginning of a new golden era that once again priorities prioritizes achievement over normalcy, excellence over mediocrity. i'm not sure that a tech bro a wealthy tech bro telling americans they are mediocre and lazy is a perfectly fine tuned message for the base. what is your opinion of this, carol? >> i think i would stick with reporting and say you know, elon musk kind of waved into

this drama to try to i don't know, explain the back his point, to try to calm the waters a little but he ultimately double down and started to roil the waters even more, and to your point, alex, this is not ideal for the numbers, the true quantity, if you will, of voters, who got trump elected. you are so right to point out how big is the doge coalition? that coalition is as big as it pocketbook, that's the value, that is what is important is the billions of dollars that are behind all the folks who helped trump get elected but in terms of numbers and votes and showing up for midterm elections, it's people who are like what are you saying, elon musk, his actual quote was

something along the lines of, in america, we don't have enough extremely talented and extremely motivated people who can work in my tech industry, and that is pretty striking, i'm not saying he's wrong, i'm not saying he's right, but what a striking thing to say to the maga base, which got trump elected and said, we have to do something about americans, we have to stop you know, these people coming across the border, feeding off our economy, taking away from our children's school time. we need somebody to look out for americans to say you are not motivated or excellent enough in your field, donald trump is going to have to come in and swoop in on this one. >> a member when tucker carlson said, something about daddy coming home to speak -- spank something, i think we know now.

thank you for your time tonight , i really appreciate you. is canada on the track to become the 51st state? donald trump think so. that's coming up at first, how did we get here? we will take a look back at the warning signs from 2024, that's next. that's next ask your doctor about farxiga.

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donald trump won the popular vote in the election by just 1.5%, but he one all seven swing states including the blue wall states of michigan and pennsylvania both currently governed by democrats. in the closing weeks before the election, i traveled to both of those states and in both of them, the warning sites for democrats were there in plain sight. and second, michigan, the only county in the state to vote for every presidential winner since 2008, in saginaw i spoke with dozens of union workers about the election and this is what they were saying. >> all right, so, by a show of hands, how many of you are paying close attention to this election? okay, i'm going to say that's like half the audience. is anybody undecided? okay. >> i'm undecided because i haven't seen enough of it yet.

i need to pay closer attention and do more independent research before i make my judgment. >> have there been news stories about the candidates that have made their way to your information feed? >> not particularly, just how people act around this time. it's a little crazy, so i try not to partake so much. >> i'm supporting kamala harris because i've seen for years actually nine years of trump. we have to move our country forward. i think kamala harris, a generation like that, needs to start moving this country forward, donald trump is pulling us backwards, not moving us forward, that's why i support kamala harris. there are a lot of young people in this room. i see the policies, the infrastructure act, that has put those to these people here, back to work for pretty much

their entire career, at a good wage, they can support their family and own a home, and build generational wealth. >> president biden is the most pro-working president we've ever had, the only president to be on the picket line and support working families. infrastructure bill, time after time, we've seen him stand up for us. >> do you feel like vice president harris is going to be as strong as he was? >> i do. >> who here is voting for the first time? is this anybody's first election? what has made its way across your radar? any stories or issues or positions ? mark >> mostly just immigration. >> can you talk more about that? what about immigration have you been paying attention to? >> there are thousands and thousands of illegal immigrants coming across the border and the vice president has done

minimal work to fix that based on what i've seen. i like that to change. >> do you feel like donald trump will be better on this issue? >> based on what we've seen, i do believe he will be better. >> to you, are you leaning towards trump right now? >> yes ma'am. >> is there anything harris could do at this point change your mind? >> not particularly, no, unless she changes her stance completely on fixing the border. >> is this your first election? >> yes, >> have you been paying attention ? mark >> some things, it's just hard to know what's true and what's false as far as both parties are concerned. >> what issue matters to you the most? >> definitely the issues concerning democracy and what was discussed before the border. >> what about immigration? >> the influx in illegal immigration is affecting a lot

more than just the people but our economy, we are losing jobs for the people who have lived here, people are running out of work and in return, it's making life as a whole for the country, harder. >> do you feel one candidate or the other is better on that issue? >> i don't know what to believe from what i'm seeing from multiple news outlets and what comes across my newsfeed so, i'm not super opinionated either way. >> how do you think you will ultimately decide. we talked to one gentleman who said i'm just going to go with my heart. >> as the election comes closer, i think the more i see and the more truth comes up, i will be able to make a more educated choice. >> how many people care about what the union endorses question >> the union provides me with work and directly affects my pocketbook and my family.

>> if the union doesn't endorse a candidate and you are left you know, to decide on your own, first of all do you think you will definitely vote? >> i will definitely vote. >> how do you think you will make the decision? >> i think i will still be conflicted. >> literally a gametime call? >> i think so. >> doesn't matter what you are fellow union members are doing? >> it'll matter. it's definitely a hot topic. >> is there disagreement? >> oh yeah. oh yeah. >> right now it's pretty black and white. you know, and we go back to republicans want to make our economy a service economy, so do your research on that. vote, for christ sake, people around the country, around the world, don't have an opportunity, look at the economy, we have the c.h.i.p.s.

act, there's billions and billions of dollars, most of the people in this room are benefiting from biden's deal and they don't even know it yet. do your research, look at that. goodness gracious, pull out of your . >> trump's on increase in union support nationwide which eight into harris and her overall margins. while democratic -- his position on democracy and stance on abortion, the union workers i spoke to in the closing weeks before election day made it clear those were not the issue that would move them at the polls. >> does anybody have any idea about what is happening related to the courts, the january 6th event, and what's going on there with trump? so, like, talk to me about your level of interest in the criminal charges.

>> february sixth? >> january 6th. >> i remember the day. i remember he was the president. i'm not familiar with the charges that have been brought against him. i'm not following that, i know there's multiple court cases. >> that doesn't sound like it'll be a factor in deciding? >> no. >> so when i say january 6th, what do you think? >> i remember seeing it on the news, all of the riots, i don't know what it was or what happened. >> how did it make you feel when you saw it? >> i don't know how i really feel about it. i mean, people showed their emotion, i guess, probably in the wrong way but it happens. >> who here has been following the decisions from the supreme court, raise your hands? >> i'm seeing like only a handful, who here knows what the dobbs decision is? >> one person.

okay, that is super interesting. what about abortion? is that an issue ? mark >> i think it's a woman's right, nobody should be able to dictate that at all. >> what do you think of trump's position on abortion? >> it's anti-, isit? he wants to control that. >> yeah, yeah. >> i don't think he has any business talking about it. >> what about abortion, is that something that you guys think about, something that concerns you? >> >> i think the each go one way too far. >> what about you? >> same thing. >> i don't have an opinion on it. i haven't looked into it or

even thought about it. >> a few weeks later i visited pennsylvania and traveled all over the state talking to voters. one of my stops was in allentown where a puerto rican radio personality hosts one of the areas most popular shows, catering to a state where the hispanic population has nearly tripled since the year 2000. and while we spoke to his listeners, one issue kept coming up. latino men were having doubts about voting for a woman. >> having a female kind of concerns me a little bit, she will still get my vote but it concerns me a little bit because over the generations and years of our lives, i've never seen a woman you know, other than hillary clinton, but i am concerned a little bit about, you know, the fact that would she be able to run this country the way a male would.

>> would she be able to, we have putin and some other presidents outside of this country and other countries that have a great relationship with donald trump. >> i feel like because she's a woman, she will be treated different and her word would not be out as much as a man's. i don't think it's right but i feel that's going to happen a lot. >> do you have friends that are not going to vote for because she's a woman? >> i have a lot of coworkers who won't vote for her just because she's a woman, i'm like, i mean, a woman is a woman and a man is a man, it just doesn't matter, what are you, as long as you know what you are doing. it doesn't really matter. >> this listener is writing on

facebook that the reason why we get those calls for people who are scared is because they hear from the media and they hear from trump, how week as a country we are. we are weak, we are weak, and so that, together with a female, the perception that females are weaker than men, so >> that is fascinating, that is a super fascinating point. >> kamala harris won the latino vote, 46% voted for trump, the 13 point increase in his support compared to four years ago, his 46% among latino voters also marked the highest support any republican has gotten with this specific voting block, ever. >> when we come back, donald trump has talked a big game when it comes to america's role in conflicts around the world but can he actually deliver? we will get a reality check,

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today u.s. officials have new intelligence linking russia to it deadly azerbaijan crash earlier this week. 38 people were killed wednesday when a commercial plane traveling to russia crashed on the shores of the caspian sea. now, to u.s. militaries officials tell nbc news that the military may have misidentified the plane as a ukrainian drone, a mistake that would have triggered defense systems and shot the plane down. officials have denied the

claims and suggested ukraine is to blame, this comes as the kremlin has rejected trump's calls for an immediate cease- fire to end the war in ukraine. fears of a wider war have begun to resurface in the middle east as israel steps up attacks against the iran backed houthi rebels in yemen. all of this potential chaos awaits donald trump when he enters the white house next month but he appears to want even more chaos in the form of territorial expansion. this week, trump as clayton his threats to retake control of the panama can now and he doubled down on his desire to take ownership of greenland, as in, greenland. david, it's great to have you on the program, thank you for joining me in the middle of the holiday season. for small, donald trump has made a lot of seemingly unhinged promises. we will see what comes of them but the idea that he can end

the war in ukraine his first 24 hours in office. first of all, what do you make of that and what do you make of it, especially in the light of this potential air attack on the azerbaijan commercial aircraft? >> i think trump is already getting a cold dose of reality that there was never a possibility that he was going to end it in 24 hours. what he was doing was playing right into putin's hands because now putin knows that the longer he drags this out, the worst the position is that trump is in, and the only leverage that trump has, he has no leverage over putin, is over the ukrainians, so trump could pull support for the ukrainians but of course europe can't support the ukrainians and the ukrainians can pursue this on their own and i think what we are going to end up with is a long, complicated negotiation and wish putin plays a really tough line and says that he wants not only on the territory

so i think this is going to go on for months and months and it's just going to be another one of those promises like getting mexico to build the wall that never materializes. >> what you think the potential appointment of tulsi gabbard, who is if not a russian asset, someone who has inclinations towards putin, what do you think her at the director of national intelligence, how that might affect value as, and the russia relationship under trump ? >> well, it would be a disaster if she were confirmed for this job, the intelligence community is extremely disturbed by the prospect of somebody who is so close to putin and also to assad, the russians are already putting out a conspiracy story saying that the shootdown how to do with ukrainians.

tulsi gabbard in the past, has embraced and promoted such stories, so the idea that you have a kremlin mouthpiece coming into the top intelligence job in the united states, it is bad for the u.s., and it's bad for trump, it is bad to have that kind of person as an advisor, because they are promoting lies, they are not promoting the truth. >> there are so many things that trump says and does that are confounding, but to use the week of christmas and the christmas holiday to launch is plans for territorial expansion, retaking the panama canal, going after greenland and making canada the 51st state, does one of these rise in your mind to the wackiest idea because they all seem insane but secondly, what do you think is behind the new american imperialism this week in particular? >> i don't know, i think it was something he ate over christmas, i mean, taking over

canada, going to war with canada, that's from a south park cartoon, this is south park level of foreign policy. you know how long denmark has controlled greenland? since the year 1380, okay? they've been intro in control of greenland for 700 years, even when we built the catamount -- panama canal we said we would promote that independence in our claims to the canal over the course of the century, that we were there, were very weak indeed and that's why ultimately, we signed it away. this is not going to materialize into anything except alienating our allies, and making the president of the united states look like a buffoon. >> it must have been some christmas ham, i guess, if that's what it led to. i mean, a part of me wants to

try it myself. what would happen? david, thank you for taking time away from roasting chestnuts over an open fire to join me tonight. me tonight. [music playing]

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welcome back to are special to our addition of alex wagner tonight. as we had to a new year and into trump's second term in office one thing to think about completely differently this time around is america's legal system. donald trump began 2024 as a defendant in four separate criminal cases in which he faced up to 91 felony counts and with them the potential he would and this year, 2024, in prison. instead he is ending the year

as the president-elect of the united states having avoided almost all accountability while he has also fundamentally changed our nation's legal landscape. this year, trump became the first former president in u.s. history to be convicted of a crime. he was found guilty of 34 felony counts in the state of new york. now the sentencing in that case has been delayed indefinitely. down in georgia trump started the year facing criminal conspiracy charges from fulton county district attorney fadi willis who brought her case for his attempt to overturn the report of the 2020 election in that state. earlier this month d.a. willis was removed from that case and while she's appealing the decision the likelihood of her prosecution against trump continuing, the likelihood seems slim. at the federal level trump started this year with special counsel jack smith prosecuting him for election interference in 2020 and for the mishandling of classified documents after

trump left the white house. now, not only has special counsel jack smith dropped both of those cases but the supreme court has given trump considerably more power than he had before. in a hearing about the federal election interference case before the high court earlier this year the justices ruled the president has immunity from criminal prosecution for all official acts. that means trump really could shoot someone on fifth avenue and maybe get away with it as long as he could reasonably claim it was an official act. trump still faces a number of civil cases and financial penalties but at least criminally donald trump appears to have emerged this year stronger than ever. as we head into 2025, as trump is openly threatening retribution against perceived enemies, how should we think about our nation's legal system? where do things stand now? joining me now is joyce vance, former u.s. attorney for the northern district of alabama,

kristi greenberg who served for over a decade in the u.s. attorney's office in the southern district of new york and alyssa murray, a professor of law at nyu and cohost of the strict scrutiny broadcast. thank you for being here with me. i can't believe my fortune and having you guys to talk about this. in terms of how we should be thinking about the federal courts and what the supreme court did in its decision in and around trump's election interference case should we be left to believe future prosecution of presidents or ex- president is all but impossible at the federal level at this point? >> so, i think we have to set the table 1st and say that donald trump did to the courts what he has done consistently. he's an institution destroyer, not an institution builder. a big part of the problem we face in assessing courts and how they may interact in the trump 2.0 presidency is the fact he's managed to undercut public confidence in the courts

. as i think about that, i think increasingly that our confidence in the courts, although in many ways it shaken, we should not abandon it. what we should do is reject this notion that donald trump is immune from all accountability. the supreme court has made it clear he won't face any criminal charges for any conduct he engages in, that is at least arguably official. as you point out, there's a range of civil cases still in effect. carol holds a defamation judgment against him and although trump really banks on this notion that he is above the law i think it is up to us to hold the line and remind ourselves that he is not. >> i very much appreciate joyce's reminder we shouldn't give up on the judiciary. how are you thinking about the sort of length of line trump has to play with legally

speaking given the court's recent ruling or opinion and the sort of lawlessness or attitude of lawlessness that trump brings with him into office in the second term? >> i want to emphasize something joyce said. i don't think we can lose faith in the courts. certainly the courts are stacked in certain ways and that is likely the work of donald trump who has been really active during his first presidency and staffing federal courts with movement conservatives that donald trump himself believes in courts. he's a defendant in a number of criminal cases. he's a defendant in civil cases but he's also a plaintiff in a number of cases. he has plans to bring suit against those he says have defamed him by criticizing him. we should take solace that at least one person here, that is donald trump, believes the system can work at least in someone's favor and we should try to make the system work for everyone. in terms of presidential immunity it's no

secret the supreme court stack the deck in trump's favorite and in favor of any president coming after him, but the line really is what is the difference between official and unofficial conduct. the supreme court have said sometimes it's difficult to tell what is official and unofficial when it comes to presidency because the man in the office so frequently intersect and merge in some way. that means it is going to be harder to hold donald trump criminally accountable. we have seen those cases go away, but on the civil side the court has said in lots of rulings you can continue to have civil litigation against a sitting president so long as the litigation doesn't impose unduly on the activities of the presidential office. we saw bill clinton sit for deposition , it's very likely in some civil cases donald trump is going to be an active plaintiff, he could continue to be an active defendant. i don't think we should lose face entirely with the courts or legal system, but we ought to be clear eyed and very

straightforward about the challenges we face here. this can be an avenue moving forward. >> to that and about how the court may hold trump accountable , it's not just donald trump who will be an actor here. as it was in any federal cases he was facing there were other people associated with him who have indeed faced accountability. i will note it's not a federal case, but rudy giuliani is doing court next friday to see if he should be held in contempt for failing to turn over assets related to his defamation of ruby freeman. he owes $140 million. he's not turned over his assets. rudy giuliani can't practice law in new york. what do you think will happen and what message does it send to other potential trump allies and stooges who may want to carry out more of his unlawful plans? >> as you said, i think there is a real fear for the

enablers. the supreme court did nothing to protect them and factor in oral arguments you had several justices talking about the fact we can give immunity to the president because there are other people who would be helping him and they don't have any consequences. that would be a way of deterring presidents from acting. i don't think the argument holds any water, but that's one they seem to be drawing some kind of bright line at least in arguments about the fact these enablers could be held accountable. i think you're going to see it. there are other actions in arizona, michigan, wisconsin with respect to the fake electors. you have rudy giuliani who defamed election workers in georgia and is being held accountable for that despite the fact in many courts he's continue to act what seems to me incomplete contempt of the judges. i think the judges seem to be getting tired of it and i

do have hope in 2025 they will hold his feet to the fire if he doesn't continue -- if he doesn't actually abide by their rulings and turn over his assets to those election workers and really abide by the court's order. i think rudy giuliani is in for a lot of trouble. he's been disbarred from the practice of law into states. i don't see him ever stepping foot into a courtroom anytime soon other than as a defendant. >> to that end about how those enablers are being held accountable, joyce, we know fani willis has been taken off of the case she's prosecuted down in georgia but it's not just trump, it's trump and 14 allies and she is appealing that ruling that has taken her off the case. what do you think is going to happen there? it's a vast criminal conspiracy case and involves a number of people. how do you see the road ahead

for fani willis in the state of georgia? >> this is a case that's proceeding in georgia state courts, not federal court. the dynamics are little bit different. it's very likely that the georgia supreme court will affirm the ruling removing willis from the case. if that happens this case will then be reassigned to another georgia prosecutor. there's a little bit of a precedent for this early on in the case. one of the defendants was peeled off because willis had a conflict of interest with prosecuting him and when that case was reassigned to another prosecutor it was essentially a deathknell for that case. that could be the fate of this entire matter but there's a little bit of hope in this landscape which is that some defendants who had previously pled guilty tried to reverse their guilty pleas after this entire sort of scenario shook out and the trial judge told them absolutely not, guilty pleas are final.

that's an important principle in the criminal justice system. defendants aren't permitted to relitigate a guilty plea after they've entered it. those guilty pleas have held that. as christie points out there are other criminal cases where trump is not a defendant in states across the country were fake electors schemes were executed and something we often lose sight of is that when cases like that go to trial or even when they proceed to a guilty plea much of the evidence comes forward and it's a very public reminder whether trump is involved or not of his complicity in those matters. >> when you talk about trump specifically, how much stock do you put in the civil cases against donald trump? he still faces eight civil lawsuits for the january 6th attack, defamation charges from one of the central park five, the exonerated five after he claimed during presidential debate that they had killed someone.

do you think those, though trump's president, do you think they proceed in an orderly fashion? what's your level of optimism that he will face some accountability on a civil level? >> we know presidents can be held liable in civil lawsuits even while they are serving in the presidency. we know that from clinton versus jones, a supreme court case from 1996. we have also seen presidents have actually participated in civil lawsuits pillar bill clinton and donald trump during some of his time as president was involved in a suit involving trump university. it is entirely possible for the president to participate as a litigant in a civil suit without unduly burdening. does that mean donald trump won't try to come up? that's what litigation is. that's the whole strategy to run out the clock. we have seen there have been some very assertive officials

like the civil fraud case that of kept things moving. the presidency will make it more challenging for things to move in an orderly fashion but it will not be an absolute impediment. there may be an avenue for some kind of accountability from those civil lawsuits. it just may take slightly longer than you've seen in circumstances where donald trump was not president while also a litigant. >> it ain't over by a long shot. thank you so much for spending a little bit of your holiday season with us. melissa murray, i will ask you to stick around for a few more minutes because we have more to get to including the supreme court's ongoing ethics problems as we get yet more reporting about more undisclosed travel for justice clarence thomas paid for by a billionaire. that's next. ♪far-xi-ga♪

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democrats on the senate judiciary committee dropped an interesting chestnut ahead of the holidays. we now have reporting on two more undisclosed trips did to justice clarence thomas by texas billionaire harlan crow. after a 20 month investigation into ethics practices at the supreme court democrats on the committee released a 93 page report with 800 pages of supporting documents. in addition to the trips that have

already been made public to new trips were revealed. megan dona harl crow flew from nebraska to new york in july 2021 and just months later, crow hosted thomas on his yacht after supplying the justice with a private flight between d.c. and new jersey. justice thomas did not disclose these trips even after resubmitting some of his financial forms. the senate judiciary committee learned about them after threatening to subpoena harlan crow. back with me is melissa murray, nyu law professor and host of the strict scrutiny podcast and we are joined by a senior writer for slate magazine. it's great to have you both here. we have been talking about harlan crow and justice thomas, it's the buddy comedy that will not end. i have to ask, the fact justice thomas did not feel the need to disclose these after he had his

financial disclosure forms what does that tell you about the code of ethics of the supreme court and is anything ever going to change? >> it tells me the alleged code of ethics doesn't really exist for all intents and purposes. it's a series of suggestions that cannot even be rounded up to a true code and justice thomas will continue to flout it with impunity until it is given real teeth. i think there's a reason why justice elena kagan did a little bit of a lecture tour where she said repeatedly we should have an enforceable ethics code. it's her own colleague on the bench showing the problem of putting out suggestions and saying good luck hope you follow it. i have to say, what bothers me the most about the situation in particular is justice thomas is a jurist who really shows no mercy for litigants who break the law, for criminal defendants especially who holds them to the very tightest interpretation of the letter of the law. yet, when he himself breaks the law as he did here

by failing to disclose all of these lavish gifts and presents and trips he declares himself through his intermediaries to be totally innocent, blameless, he's been given a do over and as the senate judiciary committee revealed still breaks the law, still withholds information about two trips that under federal statute he was required to disclose and i guess to him it's no big deal. we hear a lot about a two track justice system. i think there's one going on in clarence thomas own mind where one class of people, indigenous criminal defendants get no mercy but he and rich powerful people like him maybe like donald trump get an endless series of do overs and mulligans because of course they must've acted with good intent. >> it says something as we look toward the broader landscape about the power of billionaires. it's largely unchecked. this is the outgoing chair of the judiciary committee. he says whether failing to disclose lavish gifts or

failing to recuse from cases with apparent conflict of interest, it's clear the justices are losing the trust of the american people at the hands of a gaggle of funding billionaires. you have elon musk in the executive branch, harlan crow in the judicial branch, you have untold billionaires working their way in the legislative branch. give me your opinion on this -- i'm not going to call it a kleptocracy but this is deeply problematic in a number of levels when you look at the mountain of money and outside influence it can buy. >> what we call it that? certainly an oligarchy run amok for sure. this is basically the new gilded age that we are living in. you've seen the effects of it. the supreme court overturned the chevron doctrine last year and there has been reporting from the new york times that's made clear that was a multi- your project funded by the conservative legal movement and brothers network which has a

true interest in corporate deregulation and hobbling the administrative state because administrative agencies issue regulations that often make it more costly for corporations to run because those regulations make it safer for consumers but more expensive for corporations to make their products. it's not a surprise the administrative state is under assault. it's a real problem for these oligarchs and corporations and it's no surprise the american people are losing faith in the court when they see these very cozy relationships between the supreme court justices and these oligarchs who sometimes function apparently as emotional support millionaires. i think the really important point for the public to recognize his that putting pressure, examining this, being public about it all the time actually does work. last month sitting at the supreme court the justice excuse himself because they had published a report showing he has very close ties with one

that have filed a brief in the case before the court. that doesn't happen unless there is transparency and reporting and journalism who are willing to hold this court's feet to the fire. when they say you're making it hard for the justices or making things difficult for the judiciary we are not making it difficult, we are making it easier for transparency and justice. >> first of all, melissa. second of all, when you think about the judiciary and the road ahead trump will be able to appoint new justices. how many more? i think joe biden at last count had beaten the number of appointees that donald trump made in his first term by one. what is your expectation for the trump administration with how aggressively they will try to fill seats in the judiciary and the sort of class of judges

we are talking about in terms of filling those seats given how the trump administration and conservatives have manipulated the federal courts to get federal dashing conservative legislation either enacted or have managed to unwind liberal protections at the state level? >> i think we are about to see the most extreme and partisan slate of judicial nominees in history. the reason why is because trump experimented with appointing these hacks to the bench in his first term. people like eileen cannon. they donned their robes and engaged in the exact kind of egregious misconduct and outrageous decision-making that progressives warn about and the public still soffit to give donald trump a second term. i fear that as usual the public is not drying the correct lines of accountability between these outrageous decisions from the lower courts and the president who appointed the judge making those decisions. i think if you are the

appointees and advisers who will select these judges you are thinking i got away with it. i put the worst people on the bench. i put 33-year-old psychopaths on the bench and the people of this country gave me a second term. the question is how low can he go? with 53 republicans in the senate i think the bar is really on the floor. fearfully, i have to say this will be worse than the first term. the people who will soon populate the benches in our lower courts are going to be judges in name only. they will emerge with an agenda, they will quickly execute it and then after trump is gone, after the nightmare is over they will remain for years, for decades continuing to stand in the way of every democratic president and every democratic congress that exists for the next 40, 50 years unless future democrats decide to do something about it and reform the court. i think it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better and democrats who said that expanding the supreme court or

imposing a real code of ethics or other reforms over the last four years, they are going to see just how bad the situation can get because they decided to unilaterally disarm to reject the kind of hardball mitch mcconnell and donald trump are affected and we are all going to suffer the consequences. >> okay. mike joseph stern with a heavy dose of real talk this holiday season. melissa murray, thank you for joining me. i know it's a crazy time of year and i appreciate the wisdom and thoughts. thank you. coming up the democratic party might still be trying to figure out where it went wrong in 2024 but is the 2028 primary already underway? also a special report on what happens to the most vulnerable among us when washington decides to shift policy. that's coming up after the break. with miebo, eyes can fl ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪

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donald trump's re-entry into the white house is raising questions about both immigration and reproductive rights policy. less discussed is the fact these two complex issues often overlap. our report earlier this year by the journal of the american medical association revealed in a post-roe america the number of women managing their own medication abortions outside of

the healthcare system has risen significantly. community-based volunteer networks lead the way in providing these women their needed medication. some of these networks based in mexico ship abortion medication for free to women in the u.s. trying to bypass their states harsh abortion bands. along the way they are encountering a secondary reality, a troubling rise in sexual violence against migrant women on the mexican side of the southern u.s. border. leading to even more unwanted pregnancies and post-roe america. investigated this trend earlier this year. this is her special report. >> we are about to talk to a young asylum seeker sexually assaulted in a mexican border town and found out she was pregnant as soon as she stepped into texas and the only reason she agreed to talk to us today is because we will not disclose her identity or where we are now. >> when valentina left el

salvador for the united states many cautioned against it. they knew about the experiences of women heading north. at what point after entering texas did you find out you were pregnant? [ speaking non-english ] >> valentina found herself in texas, pregnant, alone and planning and abortion. were you aware of the strict abortion laws enforced in texas? [ speaking non-english ]

>> what did you learn? were you looking for clinical help? what did you want? [ speaking non-english ] >> the pills valentina is referring to is a combination, the fda approved regimen for medical termination of pregnancy. more than 60% of all abortions performed in the united states are done using these pills but since the supreme court overturned roe versus wade in 20 2214 republican-led states including texas have banned the medication. [ speaking non-english ] >> valentina found a group able to ship the pills to a friends house in a nearby state. at 14 weeks pregnant she found herself packing once more.

this time to carry out a self managed abortion. weeks after she returned to texas valentina managed to obtain more packs of one of the abortion pills she used. inspired by her own struggle she decided to break the law to help women in similar situations. were you aware what you were doing was illegal? [ speaking non-english ] >> do you have any left right now? [ speaking non-english ] >> are you still thinking about helping other women? [ speaking non-english ]

>> valentina says she's no longer providing abortion pills , but on the other side of the border activists are working day and night to fill the void. [ speaking non-english ] >> this is evelyn, a young doctor from mexico city part of an international network helping women obtain both mifepristone and misoprostol. since the overturn of roe versus wade in 2022 much of the help is routed to texas. she asked for her identity to be concealed in order to protect the operation. how big is this network? >> [ speaking non-english ] >> where are they contacting

you from? >> [ speaking non-english ] >> how many packs are you sending each week? >> [ speaking non-english ] >> how do you hide the pills and make sure no one knows what your mailing? >> [ speaking non-english ] >> i think many would ask what is in it for you? you're not doing it for economic reasons. why do you do it? >> [ speaking non-english ]

>> back in texas, valentina feels the same way. you risk your life and your status. why? >> [ speaking non-english ] coming up, highlights from my conversation with stars in the democratic party this year and what's next for the party in 2025 and beyond. stay with us. [clears throat] sounds like you need to vaporize that sore throat. vapocool drops? it's sore throat relief with a rush of vicks vapors. ♪ vapocooooool ♪ whoa.

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and i'm lowering my cv risk. ask your prescriber about wegovy®. as 2024 comes to a close and republican trifecta is set to take over washington, d.c. congressional democrats have begun to plan for the future. over the past few weeks we've seen house democrats elect new ranking leaders including congressman jamie raskin and gerry connolly who will hold top spots on the powerful judiciary and oversight committees respectively. talk has begun among washington insiders about potential 2028 democratic hopefuls. this year, i spoke with two stars in the party who have long been considered potential presidential contenders. california governor gavin newsom and michigan governor have made names for themselves as effective leaders in the

respective states and both have embraced the fight and engaging publicly with critics and those who disagree with them. here are some of the highlights from my conversations with both of those governors. >> do you feel you're making a difference? >> i don't know. >> decidedly less. your father in law has noticed. the family, yeah. i'm not saying that critically. >> everyone wants to be loved and needs to be loved. this fundamental notion we are all just human beings. i love and respect people i disagree with, i don't want to talk down or passed anybody. i want them to know i am listening. i do listen. it's hard. it's demoralizing sometimes, but the misinformation is next level and i figured you can be in denial or accepted and say that is not the world i live in.

there's no leak on our side of the boat. we are in this together and we have to cross. sorry marjorie taylor green or whoever said that but it's not an option. we can't afford that. betting on this platform, showing to the extent i can respect by showing up and asserting myself because i do think we have to disabuse if we can win by stating all these facts because back to the beginning, statistics, we have to get into the zeitgeist of how people are feeling and we have to push back, we have to get into that. >> you're someone who has faced a death threat, a plot to kidnap and kill you. you note this in the book, you still to this day don't understand why your attempt to keep the people of michigan safe resulted in such a vitriolic angry reaction. i wonder, if not in the case of this pot particularly, how and

why you think the right wing has gotten so incensed, so dangerously violent in its rhetoric around public officials and the notion of community and our shared experience and keeping the community safe? what happened? >> that's what i'm hoping to understand. when i talk about these plotters i also talk about my favorite thing to do is engage with people. as comfortable in a black church i am in a bowling alley more so in those places then a black tie dinner. with all the rhetoric and heat and threats that have happened i'm not as comfortable, it's sad. i would like to sit down with one of these plotters and understand. i think ted lazo is one of the wisest people. he said be curious not judgmental. i want to understand. i would like to ask what's going on because it's not a rational thing to take up weapons and threaten to kill a sitting governor because she told you to wear a mask.

what was going on in their lives i can understand or be a better person or better governor and learn? maybe there's nothing. i would like to try. i think maybe there's something to learn. >> another thing governor whitmer and governor do some have in common is owning their mistakes. i asked about a specific incident she wrote about in her memoir and the lesson she learned from it. >> i want to bring up -- you write it in your book so is it fair game? you talk about, there's a mention when you talk about owning your mistakes as an important lesson you learned. you acknowledged you made the mistake during covid by violating your own states covid restrictions during a gathering and then you also major to point out california governor gavin newsom made a similar mistake and you drew this contrast in the book. gavin and i have had that in

common even though he was dining at a michelin three-star restaurant and i was in a dive bar. the apology is the same. is that the difference between you and gavin newsom? >> not at all. i love gavin newsom and i think he's doing a great job and i appreciate the work he's doing on behalf of president biden and vice president harris. he's helped me over the years so i'm grateful. i wanted to point out we are all human, we make mistakes on occasion. >> sorry if you're watching. >> he made a mistake and owned it and did it with dignity and the right way. i did as well. it was a different circumstance and unfortunately i violated covid restrictions at a dive bar but i was making fun of myself. i was making fun of myself. i think it's important to recognize we are human beings, we all fall short on occasion. the true leaders like gavin newsom own it and apologize for it and that's what he did and that's what i did as well. i think it's important. our

political leaders are not perfect, they are not better than us. anyone who looks down on people or treats people as though they don't matter or they themselves are flawless are full of it. i think that's why i wanted to share that story and i wanted to give him a little credit for doing what i think was the honorable thing to do in that situation. i'll be speaking to the atlantic's about what democrats are thinking about as they consider the future of their party. stay with us.

democrats appear to be putting 2024 in the rearview mirror. they are not only regrouping and the opposition force in washington, but they've also begun to consider their prospects for 2028. joining me now is mark leibovich, staff writer at the atlantic. it's a pleasure to have you here in the middle of the holiday season. thank you in advance. for the segment started we were playing some greatest hits real from my interviews with avenue some and retching witmer, two very popular democratic governors. i wonder as democrats think of a ticket in 2028 what their posture in the 2024 election has told you or tells you about their ambitions potentially in the 2028 election. >> i watch the clip and i watched old segments all the night at home. i'm well prepared. really what was interesting about both of those is both

newsom and witmer in their own ways have confronted the other side in very direct or unwanted ways in the course of witmer, newsom has been frontal about going on fox news and talking of how important it is to talk the other side and witmer has done the same what's interesting is they could before the election. i thought it was interesting to hear whitmer say i admire the work gavin has done on president biden and vice president harris and i looked at the date and saw it was an awkward period. i do think since the election i wouldn't say there's been retrenchment but people are trying to find out where they are on this. i think both newsom and whitmer both are probably in their last terms as governor. i think they are probably both going to be seen as candidates and they are trying to figure out what the message is going to be. >> they both did not want the job of kamala harris running mate not that it was necessarily offered but they

came out pretty clearly as being uninterested during 2024. i wonder if you read anything into that. >> probably were going to get it anyway especially newsom being from the same state. i don't know the specifics about who actually turned down offers or real interest in kamala harris running mate position, but either way i do think that going forward certainly those two will be part of the conversation but there's a whole another generation of people, some we might not be thinking about now who could be front and center in a few years. i think democrats are trying to figure out -- they are trying to get over the shock of the election and the transition of the shock left and right but try to figure out what they want to do is a party and who will lead it. >> as we mentioned kamala harris , outgoing vice president, politico reports privately the vice president has been instructing advisers and allies

to keep her options open weather for a possible 2020 presidential run or to run for governor in her home state of california in two years. what do you make of that? >> i think it's usually a rule of thumb politicians will want to keep options open. i would think -- i think kamala harris had a tough environment, i think president biden put her in a tough position. whether it was the stain of been defeated by donald trump in the most recent election would disqualify her from running again you would think would be the case, but i do think she clearly wants to be part of the conversation when she leaves washington in january . i think we will see what she does. governor might be a more realistic office for her to run for but we will see. >> you are a creature of washington and i don't say that in a derogatory fashion, but as you think about where the party is headed i wonder how much you read into these house battles

for ranking committee chairs. gerry connolly, who is an older representative from virginia argues he made it ably state. he beat out alexandria ocasio- cortez for the top spot for democrats on the oversight committee. by a healthy margin i think 131 votes to 84. do you read anything into that about the democrats appetite for the next generation or their appetite for more of a partisan brawler as it were? >> i think in cases like this these elections a lot is about personal relationships, a lot about the cork of the caucus. gerry connolly beating aoc for this position is sort of a setback for aoc but at the same time i don't think it matters. i think aoc will be a higher profile member of congress and more if she decides to run for higher office in the next few years including possible president.

in the other case you can say the insurgent who was jamie raskin beat jerry nadler. right now you have the governors and possible presidential candidates and then you have the legislative people who would be pretty visible going forward and be the very vocal minority party. donald trump will always make them very visible and the spread is very narrow at this point. >> a holy washington ahead. i'm sure you will have lots to say about it. mark leibovich, thank you for spending the closing hours of our holiday show with me tonight. >> happy new year. >> that is our show for tonight. have a great evening and thank you again for spending a little of your holiday for tonight. have a great evening and thank you again for spending a little of your holiday season with us. we appreciate you. >> good evening from new york. i'm chris haze.