very good day to all of you from the msnbc world headquarter here in new york. welcome, everyone, to "alex witt reports." we begin this hour with live pictures of the georgia state funeral procession for jimmy

carter. of course the 39th president of the united states who died last sunday. he was 100 years old. when the funeral motorcade arrives in atlanta, which should be fairly soon, give it about maybe 15 minutes or so, it will be stopping at the georgia state capitol for a moment of silence. it will then proceed to the carter presidential center for a private service a bit later on this hour. today through monday, or actually early tuesday morning, the former president will lie in repose at the carter presidential center and the public is invited to pay their respects. that will extend until 6:00 a.m. tuesday morning. then on tuesday he will lie in state at the u.s. capitol after of course being transferred to washington, d.c. members of congress will pay their respects. from tuesday night to thursday members of the public can pay their respects in washington. the national funeral service will take place on thursday morning. we have some new reporting to share with you on today's ceremony and jimmy carter's

life. we're going to start with nbc's priya sridhar in atlanta where president carter's motorcade is expected at this hour. they are running a little bit behind, priya, but we know when they arrive at the state capitol we will hear a moment silence. what else can we expect today? >> reporter: that's right, alex. that moment of silence will be led by governor kemp and other local leaders. and after that we can expect that his remains will be brought here to the carter center. and we've been watching incredibly powerful pictures throughout the day. you saw mourners lining up throughout that motorcade processional along the highway making that two to three-hour journey from plains here to atlanta. we also saw several people from georgia and really across the region gather in his hometown of plains this morning. i've had the opportunity ever since the news broke of his passing last weekend to talk to several people who wanted to come out here to pay their respects, lay flowers outside of the carter center. and what they really told me is that more than any sort of

policy proposal or legislation that he passed while he was president they really remember him as someone who was down to earth, humble, the embodiment of the american dream. he grew up on a peanut farm with no electricity and made his way all the way to the white house. let's take a listen to what one of those mourners had to say earlier today. >> we wanted to join the community that we are now part of, southwest georgia, to say good-bye to president carter, for being such a remarkable human being and remarkable president of the united states. >> president carter was a very good example of a good human being, especially in this area of southwest georgia. all the community love him and loved his presence in the area and the work he did. >> reporter: you know, alex, he is the only president to come from the state of georgia. and before he made his way to

the white house he was relatively unknown outside of the state. so i think the people here have a certain sense of pride in him. and i don't know if you can see behind me here but we're starting to see a crowd gather of mourners who are coming and laying flowers outside of the carter center, wanting to line up for the first viewing which will be at 7:00 p.m. as you mentioned and go on until tuesday morning at 6:00 a.m., at which point of course his remains will be taken to washington, d.c. for the funeral service which will take place next thursday at the national cathedral. alex? >> you know, something that always strikes me about a former president lying in repose like that and people paying respects is that people will come around the clock. you would think that maybe 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning you won't see people. but you will. and there will be an honor guard there around the clock. so people can go at any hour, as you're mentioning, beginning at 7:00 p.m. tonight until 6:00 a.m. on tuesday morning. priya, thank you so much.

we're going to go right now to jonathan alter, msnbc contributor, columnist and president carter biographer. and he shares details of his experience writing that biography which is titled "his very best" in his latest old goats newsletter on substack, which i read, my friend. and look, you spent quite a bit of time around president carter as an intern speechwriter, later on as a biographer. as you watch the funeral procession, it's moving across georgia, moving northward right now on interstate 75, trying to get into the atlanta proper environs there. i'm curious the emotions you are going through today and what kind of memories stand out most to you. >> well, i have some very vivid memories of helping jimmy and rosalynn carter build a house for habitat for humanity in memphis. >> that's cool. >> you know, moments ago -- and all sorts of other memories. moments ago when i heard the motorcade was a little late i got a chuckle because jimmy

carter was famously prompt and he was quite the taskmaster if others were late. he didn't believe that it was polite to be late, that you were being egotistical and wasting other people's time. and so mrs. carter, rosalynn carter, was often late. and it was a source of at least some tension, minor tension in their 77-year marriage, which is an extraordinary length. there's only a tiny handful of people who've been married in the united states as long as that. and she was late and got a present from president carter, who was a woodworker, and it was a plaque and it said rosie, which he and he alone called her, "this entitles you to be late for the rest of your life." and she said it was the best

birthday present she ever received. so i'm also -- because they're headed for the georgia state capitol, i've been thinking about his great contributions as governor of georgia between 1971 and 1975. and i think he's best known for hanging a picture of martin luther king in the georgia state capitol, which prompted a protest by the ku klux klan but was symbolic of his efforts to desegregate the government of georgia. and then he moved on to move the united states government from tokenism to true diversity. but those were just a couple of his many, many contributions. one other thing that i think people find quite interesting about the georgia years is that amy carter was 3 years old when they moved into the mansion, the

governor's mansion. and they hired a cook who was on work release from the georgia state penitentiary. her name was mary prince. and she eventually cooked for amy and then became her caregiver and a part of the family. and we will see her at the funeral. she was wrongly convicted of murder. and jimmy carter when he was president was the only president to be a parole officer. eventually a judge threw out the conviction and it was established that she was innocent of this crime that she was serving time for. and she went on to work for the carters and be a member of the carter family from 1971 to this day. mary prince, a very important figure in the carter circle. >> that's extraordinary. as we're focusing on georgia,

though, did president carter enjoy his time as the governor? >> yeah, i think he did. he was a terrific environmental governor. famously went over a rapids on a river, very difficult rapids in a canoe on a river that he helped save. most of the recreational areas in georgia that are enjoyed by the people of georgia, they are protected as a result of jimmy carter's efforts. and he went on to do the same as president, doubling the size of the national parks. so this is a true environmental champion. and that began when he was governor of georgia. but he was also a very tough-minded governor. they called him jungle jimmy because he had sharp elbows. the idea that he was some kind

of a saint i think underestimates the toughness with which he governed both in georgia and in washington. >> jonathan, stay with me. you're going to be with me in fact for the next couple of hours through the service at the carter presidential library. so i'll be back with you in just a moment. but we have a good ten minutes or so, we believe, everybody, until president carter's motorcade makes it to where we are showing you right now. that is the georgia state capitol. so let's move to this because it is official. ten days before being inaugurated as president donald trump will be sentenced in new york for his 34 felony convictions in the hush money trial. but that sentence will include no jail time and likely no real penalty at all. judge juan merchan dismissed trump's efforts to get the case tossed altogether saying it would undermine the rule of law. well, trump today slamming the ruling and merchan himself. we have former u.s. attorney harry litman and nbc's vaughn hillyard ready to go over these developments for us. vaughn, we're going to start with you there in west palm

beach, florida. what are the highlights from merchan's ruling and what comes next? >> reporter: the top line is that the former president, the president-elect, is not going to face jail time for the guilty verdict on those 34 felony counts that the jury found him guilty for back in may. and alex, judge merchan goes as far as to suggest that he is most likely to grant donald trump unconditional discharge, which essentially would amount to no probation and most likely no fine either. so no substantive penalty for the felony conviction. now, let's be clear. if you look at judge merchan in his ruling last night to go forward with the sentencing on january 10th, he writes in part in this very statement that, quote, it seems proper at this juncture to make nope the court's inclination to not impose any sentence of incarceration, a sentence authorized by the conviction, but one the people concede they no longer view as a practicable

recommendation. a sentence of unconditional discharge pears to be the most viable solution to ensure finality and allow the defendant to pursue his appellate options. now, donald trump's legal team has consistently said that they intend to appeal here. and donald trump on social media last night blasted the decision to move forward with this sentencing. of course it comes ten days before his inauguration. he will formally at the time of that sentencing be a convicted felon. judge merchan did note that he would have been able and had the opportunity to move that sentencing after donald trump were to leave office come 2029 but he said that that was not the best option for in his words obvious reasons. so for donald trump before he's inaugurated he will either have to go to lower manhattan to that courtroom or may appear virtually. but he is on the brink of being formally found to be a convicted felon, alex. >> pretty extraordinary, really, when you think about it. vaughn hillyard, thank you for that. let's go now to harry litman,

former u.s. attorney and host of the talking feds podcast. okay, my friend, so we know jail time is off the table and judge merchan wrote something called unconditional discharge will be the most likely option. what does that mean? is it essentially something symbolic? and why not delay or table the sentencing until he's out of office in 2029? >> it does sound like a contradiction in terms, doesn't it? but here's how it works. under new york law you can discharge someone, say you're free to go conditionally, keep your nose clean and this or that way, and then a sentence follows. if the court chooses, a discharge can also be unconditional. very rare. but what it means is what it sounds like. no penalty. trump has no physical accountability. nevertheless, i think i would choose the opposite top line from vaughn. it was already a foregone conclusion for obvious reasons as merchan put it that as of

november 5th he was not going to face any kind of serious jail time and what really matters i think, what was left for society to claim, is the fact of conviction, the historical point, the scarlet letter that makes it clear that our next president is a felon. he's going to fight mightily against that, try to stay or keep it from happening. but that i think, given where we stood, is a really significant development because he's making such strong efforts to take the election as a complete cleaning of the slate and it isn't. he's still a convict. and for merchan to affirm that i think is really noteworthy, even historical. >> just stay with me. i'm keeping an eye on things in atlanta and i did just see a number of police officers, those that may be preceding the motorcade. it does appear that president

carter's motorcade, presidential motorcade, is arriving now downtown in atlanta. so stay with me. i do have more to speak with you about. but just for all of you i want to let you know what we are seeing here. again, the president's motorcade arriving in front of the state house there, the georgia state house in the capital of atlanta where it will be met by governor brian kemp, lieutenant governor burt jones, atlanta mayor andre dickens, and georgia state legislature members as well as georgia state patrol troopers. there will be a minute of silence that will be led by governor brian kemp. we do believe we see him there front and center with his wife. so they will be meeting the motorcade. of course the president's hearse will remain in that motorcade. but this honor will be bestowed on him. so john, it's an emotional thing when you think about president carter coming back to the state house.

it's a place where he served. and he was popular there in georgia. but what do you think goes through the mind of these leaders, legislators, governor, mayor of atlanta, as they do this very solemn, dignified honor for president carter? >> well, i think they are proud of him as a son of georgia. you know, some presidential candidates don't carry their home states even when he was walloped by ronald reagan, jimmy carter carried georgia twice. he told me that he probably wouldn't have been re-elected governor of georgia even if the constitution had allowed him, the state constitution had allowed him to run for re-election in 1974. and i asked him why, and he said because he made a lot of tough decisions in georgia that helped the state including reorganizing the georgia state government,

some of his environmental decisions. and you know, that bruised some people. and the same thing that happened to him when he was president. he would make decisions that he thought were right and worry less about how these decisions would affect him politically. but he was a governor who worked very well across the aisle. and much of his legislation as governor was only enacted because he got republican support. and he also was very forward-looking on civil rights as governor. not just hanging that portrait of martin luther king in the state capitol but appointing the first african americans to senior positions in his administration and to the georgia bench. and this was a turnaround because when he ran for governor he ran to the right. his opponent had the support of people in the atlanta area and

carter of frankly -- of racists in rural georgia. and so he kind of trimmed his sails and didn't really say anything outspoken on race. and his opponent carried the black vote in 1970 when he was successfully -- carter was successfully running for governor. but just moments after taking the oath as governor he said the time for racial discrimination is over. and this had a huge effect on georgia politics and eventually on national politics as he became the face of the new soug south. and i learned when i was researching "his very best" that some of his white colleagues from the georgia state senate walked out when they heard him say this, they were so racist.

and some of the african americans in attendance turned to each other in amazement, he said what? they couldn't believe that a governor of georgia said that it was over, racial discrimination was over, or should be. and this had a very, very dramatic effect after that inaugural address. he was a historic governor of georgia. and then i think we're increasingly understanding that for all of his shortcomings, his political failures, the horrible economic conditions he faced, he was a success as president of the united states and a visionary leader for this country. >> yeah. as we're looking at the hearse carrying our 39th president body. does have the presidential seal on that car. jonathan, before i return to my conversation with harry litman, were you able to recognize the two gentlemen? i'm going to presume those that went and shook hands and were

greeted by the dignitaries there in the front, that it may have been one of president carter's sons and a grandson. were you able to see their faces? >> i wasn't looking closely at their faces. i will the next time. but i'm sure that jason carter, jimmy carter's grandson who's at the carter center, he's chair of the board of the carter center, which does all of that enormously important work all over the world. i'm sure that he's there. and jimmy carter has had three sons. jimmy and rosalynn carter had three sons. jack carter, chip carter, and jeff carter. and then 13 years later they had amy carter, who i think is probably the best remembered of them. she teaches art in atlanta now. >> well, she grew up in the white house. she had a lot of focus on her. >> she did. >> as a young girl. >> so all of them are there and

very much part of these commemorations of his life. and be there in washington as well as many other relatives in this extraordinary georgia family. >> absolutely. it would seem some of these dignitaries, the georgia governor brian kemp, lupt governor burt jones, mayor andre dickens and the georgia state legislators, you saw some of them getting into what looked like a large limousine as well. they are probably joining this particular procession now as they make their way to the carter presidential center where we do expect to have an arrival ceremony sometime this hour. we've been watching this very closely. i did want you to continue watching with us but i did want to bring everyone in as we see the motorcade leaving the state house where they did pay honor to jimmy carter. i want to bring back harry

litman so we can finish the conversation that we began. and harry, thank you for your patience. donald trump is expected to appeal his sentencing. how does that play out with him as the sitting president? how likely is it that a higher court could overturn the ruling since there is no actual penalty? and timingwise, this is all supposed to go down on friday, six days from now, in new york city. ten days later he is to be inaugurated. can all of this be sorted out in that quick a period of time? >> timing is everything here, alex. of course he can appeal. anyone can appeal a conviction and a sentence. typically, though, a defendant has to wait until sentence is pronounced. that's when the conviction actually becomes final. then you bring your appellate remedies. so you're not able to jump the gun. of course trump is a specialist at jumping the gun in that he has at the end of the path the supreme court possibly to help

him jump it. but he's going to have to come up with some novel argument. of course every court is saying unprecedented circumstances, et cetera. that the mere fact that merchan on friday looks down, peers over him, gives him a tongue wagging as he will and pronounces sentence, that fact is an irreparable injury even though for any other defendant it wouldn't be. nothing irreparable. you just go to the court of appeals and if they say merchan is wrong it wipes it off. here, however, it may be that the appeals can't happen while he's president. his vindication if he deserved one would be in 2029. so can he get either of the two higher new york courts or the u.s. supreme court to bite on the idea that he has a novel claim for irreparable injury to actually put friday's sentencing off calendar? that's his real game here.

and like everything else it's a novel sort of circumstance given the prichbted situation. i think he shouldn't be able to. i see nothing irreparable here. but you can see the argument on the other side. the mere fact of it will burden the presidency, et cetera. >> ten bucks says you'll be back with us next weekend after all of this goes down on friday. so look forward to seeing you then. thank you, my friend. meantime, what to make of an extremely rare discovery at the crime scene of the terror attack in new orleans? we're back in a quick 90 seconds. seconds. orks makes it simple to schedule an eye exam that works for you. even if you have a big trip to plan around. thanks! i mean, i can see you right now if that's...convenient. visionworks. see the difference.

you didn't start a business just to keep the lights on. lucky for you, shopify built the just one-tapping, ridiculously fast-acting, sky-high sales stacking champion of checkouts. businesses that want to win, win with

shopify. the president and first lady are expected to travel to new orleans on monday to meet with families following the terror attack that killed 14 people. this as the security in the french quarter is coming under new scrutiny. the attorney general of louisiana, liz murrill, had this to say earlier today. >> there are a lot of questions that need to be answered about who did what when, what were the preparations, who was involved in those preparations, what needs to be done to fix it. >> and joining me now from new orleans is nbc's kathy park. so kathy, what is the latest with the investigation? >> reporter: so alex, the investigation is still very active. we know that the fbi has already received nearly 1,000 tips and it's really coming in from all across the country.

i can also tell you that they are processing lots of evidence from two different locations. here in new orleans, also in the houston area where we were earlier this week. in fact, fbi agents were seen at the attacker's home, appearing to pull a gray sedan from the property there. it's unclear the connection to the suspect. but we also know that there was a lot of law enforcement activity at a short-term rental here in the new orleans area. they discovered bomb-making materials. they also discovered a transmitter in that f-150 truck used in the attack, used to detonate two ieds here on bourbon street. we've heard from the younger brother of the suspect earlier this week. he says that he is puzzled like everyone else regarding this attack and he said there were no red flags. meanwhile, there is a lot of scrutiny, as you mentioned, alex, about the security here on bourbon street now. in 2019 there was a security

assessment which essentially said that the bollards that were placed were just not fortified strong enough and they wanted those to be replaced immediately. but alex, as you can probably hear and see, bourbon street is very much alive right now. it actually reopened thursday afternoon. and there is, despite the music you're hearing right now, a bit of somberness. as you get closer to the growing memorial, there are flowers, candles, heartfelt messages written on the wall by this memorial. remembering those 14 lives lost. earlier this morning faith leaders came together from all across the area as they led a prayer service. and of course you mentioned the president and first lady will be here on monday as they continue the grieving process. >> kathy, i want you to confirm for me, there are some people who may not be familiar with the kind of music we're hearing in the background associated with new orleans. it's jazzy. it's spirited. it's vibrant. it can be even expressed as

joyful and playful. this is how new orleans are paying honor. this is their tradition. it is their culture. this is not to make light at all of what happened on that early morning hour of new year's day. >> reporter: alex, you bring up a great point. i spoke to a lot of people here, and many of them are in tears. there are folks who grew up in the new orleans area, but they said katrina, covid, those events brought them to their knees. this one would not either. they say that the music, the revelry, it's all part of the healing process and they hope to get joy back to new orleans once again. >> okay. kathy park, thank you so much. we appreciate that music as well. joining me now, we have former u.s. director of hostage recovery and senior vice president for global operations at the soufan group christopher o'leary. big picture here, there have been a spate of deadly terrorist attacks and foiled plots by isis

overseas over this last year. what is driving this spike after a number of years of seemingly reduced activity? how viable is the islamic state today? and what is the potential for more attacks here in the united states and elsewhere? >> well, good to be with you. and i hate to tell you the reality of it is the islamic state and its affiliate, you have to consider them, they're a persistent and enduring threat. they did lose their territorial caliphate, although they have not been completely eradicated from that. but they have spread and meft aft sized around the globe through their affiliates. one of those affiliates in particular has been very active over the last couple of years, isis khorasan province. they've conducted a number of very sophisticated attacks. so they're a concern. but a number of the affiliates throughout africa are of real concern. they're significant in their size and power, the territory they control.

but additionally, many of the isis prisoners that were arrested in western europe, they are getting out of prison very soon because a lot of the western european countries had sentencing guidelines that are very limited. >> so shamsud-din jabbar said on social media he joined isis in 2024. he appears to have self-radicalized after a string of personal crises. but his attack motivations are still unknown. though nbc news reports he used an extremely rare explosive compound, chris, in those ieds he left nearby the attack scene. how could jabbar have known how to make this compound? it's something reportedly never used in the united states nor in europe in an attack. where would he find or get access to this or find instructions on how to make it? >> yeah, that's something that the investigators and the fbi bomb technicians will be diving into. the homemade explosive compound

that you're referring to would be extremely unusual for somebody who is not knowledgeable or untrained to try to compose. it's a highly volatile composition. it seems like he did have some kind of guidance or training or he did some very deep research to find out this information. >> from what we know about jabbar himself does he have the profile in your mind of someone particularly susceptible to radicalization? >> so people join terrorist organizations for a variety of reasons.

some of them it's because they're looking for meaning, purpose, they've had failures in their life. he has had this. he had significant life changes after he left the military. he had failed marriages. he had financial issues. he was certainly susceptible to radicalization. and isis since its inception in 2012 time frame, they had a very sophisticated propaganda machine. they promoted their ideology across the globe using the internet, and they famously created their online propaganda magazine in multiple languages, arabic, french was very popular, but english as well. and that has really given them access to people around the world and gives people the opportunity to self-radicalize like he did. >> okay. christopher o'leary, i'm afraid i'm going to have to cut this a little bit short, and you know why, because we've been following the funereal

procession, the motorcade for former president jimmy carter. thank you for your time. and we're going to get back to you another time because there's a lot to talk about. but let's get back to priya sridhar, she's joining us from the carter presidential center in atlanta. priya, talk about -- i'm showing folks what the presidential motorcade looked like before. have they arrived on site there? >> reporter: alex, they haven't arrived just yet but we're hearing that they should be shortly within a matter of minutes. earlier today the remains of the former president left the phoebe sumpter medical center in americus, georgia and made its way to plains, where they rang a bell 39 times in honor of his 39th presidency and rendered a salute and after that the motorcade made their way here to atlanta. but of course it's a two to three-hour drive. they paused momentarily at different places along the way

and you can see pictures from earlier today of people who lined that road to basically pay their respects to the former president. we are expecting that he should arrive here at the carter center shortly, and after that there will be a private funeral service but there will be a pool camera inside there. so we should be getting a glimpse of what's going to happen there. we are expecting members of his family like his son chip carter and his grandson jason carter could perhaps be making remarks. there will also be members of the military who will be doing essentially the colors and holding the flags. and after that his body will lie in repose beginning at 7:00 p.m. tonight, and that's when members of the public, mourners will be invited to go inside and pay their last respects until about 6:00 a.m. on tuesday, at which point his remains will be flown

to washington, d.c. they'll go to the capitol rotunda, where he'll lie in state until thursday when thinks remains are taken to the national cathedral, and that's where the funeral services will be taking place. president biden of course is expected to deliver the eulogy at those services. and he has declared that a day of mourning. alex? >> i just want to let everyone know what they're seeing on our screen. this is from earlier today as members of the president's former personal secret service detail and others, they went to the sumpter medical center there. that is where his body was prepared for the funeral. and you can see a very dignified procession with them. and imagine what that was like for those secret service agents whose job it was to protect him. they're still protecting that hearse as they left the property there making their way through interstate 75 to plains, georgia on to atlanta and again on there to the carter presidential center where priya's reporting from.

priya, give me a quick sense of what you're hearing from people as they have gathered there to pay their respects. there may be a many hours wait for some of them because we understand that what, 7:00 is when they will open up viewing of the president's body lying in repose? but not until then. >> reporter: yeah, that's right, alex. well, you know, ever since this news broke on sunday people have been coming out here to the carter center. this was really a marker of his post-presidential legacy. decades of work here, humanitarian work around the world trying to eradicate diseases of course, observe elections and really promote democracy. people have been coming here and leaving flowers and candles, even bottles of peanuts. speaking to his beginnings coming from a peanut farm of course. and many of them told me that even though he led such a remarkable life, having served in the military and then

entering politics in the georgia state senate and the governor's mansion and of course making his way to the white house, a lot of what they remember about him are some of those more personal characteristics, the fact that he was so down to earth, he was so humble. they really felt like he was the embodiment of the american dream. he came from a peanut farm that didn't even have any running water or electricity and made his way all the way to the white house. so we can expect that there's going to be a lot of people coming out here today to pay their last respects, alex. >> and i don't want to draw attention to something that is perhaps dishonorable. we did hear a lot of shouting. is that just one perhaps disgruntled or upset person in the area or was that something that was official that you were hearing there? >> reporter: alex, at this point it seems as though it is someone who's in the crowd who's basically just making a scene. i can't make out exactly what they're saying right now.

they seem to be protesting something. but as you know, whenever these things happen they can attract this kind of attention unfortunately. >> and we understand, my executive producer just said apparently it is an animal rights activist. so thank you very much for that. i'm joined right now by the former u.s. secretary of housing and urban development in the obama administration shawn donovan. shawn, welcome. thank you for being here. i understand you can talk about president carter in a way that others may not be able to. give us, first of all, your reflections about him on this really somber day but yet the beginning of six days of commemorating him, his life, his accomplishments as the country mourns him. >> absolutely, alex. and it is a bittersweet day. for me the sweet part i would say is what a remarkable legacy he left, not just in his presidency but after leaving the white house. and as you said, i had the chance over decades to hammer

nails alongside him. he was an incredibly hard worker. you can tell by how worn down his tool belt was that this is something he did year after year over decades. but i also had the chance to sit with him at dinner with rosalynn, get to know them a little bit, because his legacy in housing was so deep. and you know, you were just talking about the ways in which he was humble and he stayed connected to his roots. i'll never forget rosalynn telling me, kind of whispering to me at a dinner one night, the way they used to sneak off from camp david, if you can imagine this in today's security environment. they would sneak off, visit with a farmer they'd gotten to know nearby, stay in a shack, fish in a stream there, and they just loved it. it was one of their favorite parts of kind of disappearing from camp david. and so they were remarkable people who left a remarkable and i think unique legacy for this country. >> tell me again, did i miss where you worked? i'm recalling memphis.

that is where one of our colleagues, jonathan alter, actually helped build a house with them. where did you work with him in habitat for humanity? >> i actually worked with him in new york city, believe it or not, with the habitat chapter there. in charlotte. in a number of different places around the country when i was hud secretary. but also before that, when i ran housing in new york city. and i think, you know, one of the things that is certainly bittersweet as well, despite his contributions we're at a moment where we have the worst affordable housing crisis this country has ever seen. as you know, alex, we just learned two weeks ago that we had the worst homelessness crisis this country has ever seen, more people sleeping on our streets than in shelter. and i think the message of what president carter did, not just by hammering nails himself but by really making habitat for humanity famous, habitat requires everyone who benefits from one of their homes to get out and hammer nails, to put

that sweat equity into a home. and volunteers from all over the world now build houses for them. and i think it really shows at a time when this housing crisis is affecting more people than it ever has in the history of our country that each of us has a responsibility, whether we're a low-income family on the verge of homelessness who's benefitting from a habitat home or a former president, can contribute to solving this crisis. because we do know how to solve it. we just need to step up and do that at a moment when this crisis is as bad as we've ever seen in the u.s. >> i'm curious, shawn, how you think former president carter would react to the hud report and the soaring homelessness across this country. how would he feel about that? >> i think he would -- >> angry? >> -- say it is an american tragedy. just one statistic in this, alex. we have 39% more homeless families.

over a third more than we had the year before of families with children sleeping on our streets or in shelter. i've been doing this work for 30 years. i've never seen anything that comes close to this. this is the largest single year increase we've ever seen in the history of keeping these numbers. 18%. and that comes a year after we saw a record level increase of 12%. so over just two years we've seen homelessness increase in this country by almost a third. and if president carter were here today talking about this, he would say it is an american shame and that every one of us should pick up a hammer and go to work to solve this crisis. >> indeed. let's take a listen, everybody, to the band there in the procession outside the carter presidential center. stay with me, shawn, but let's take a quick listen. ♪♪

♪♪ ♪♪

>> center face! dress center dress. ready. ceremonial.

[ ambient noise ] >> all right, everybody. you've seen the band procession there and other official proceedings of the hearse, the presidential motorcade for presidential jimmy carter. they will of course be moving in a very solemn dignified fashion very slowly through the area. it's a very large property. but we do expect it to appear

shortly. i want to remind viewers we have shawn donovan with us and also jonathan alter who's been sporadically with us over the last couple of hours. but he of course a biographer of jimmy carter's biography, "his very best." i'm also joined in the studio by my colleague and good friend, msnbc's richard lui who has his own personal relationship with the carter family, notably chip. jonathan, let me reach out to you very quickly as we again await the hearse and then the official proceedings today that will start the six days of commemorations through thursday and the national cathedral state funeral for the former president. this is a place that jimmy carter, did he pick out this location himself? was this a place he thought about and knew about as being a place that he would choose for a presidential center? >> very much so. he was very hands on in all

these decisions. this is on a site that general sherman had his headquarters after sherman marched through georgia, the union commander in the civil war, used this hill where the carter center is as his command position. the placement of the carter center there was very controversial because originally they were going to have a highway that went there. but eventually they compromised on a very peaceful parkway. but it created a lot of discord in the run-up to the establishment of the center. but i think it might be helpful to understand where he got the idea from. after the carters left the presidency and jimmy carter wrote his memoirs, he was a bit depressed and he would already take part in various important

charitable activities but hadn't yet figured out how to spend the rest of his life. and he was in his mid 50s. and then one night he woke up in the middle of the night and said to rosalynn, "i think we should do here what we did at camp david." namely, found a center that could convene people from around the world to make peace and work on other projects. and so they did. and he went around and raised money. he asked donald trump for money at trump tower and trump said no. but enough other people said yes, that they were able to do this very unique institution that had never been done by a former president. and in that sense he revolutionized the role of former presidents. and they do very important work in global health, democracy promotion, and conflict resolution. and they've been very successful

in all three in the last 40 or so years. >> so jonathan, i'm sure you've been to that center. and we are told that the actual service that we are going to bring to our viewers live here this afternoon, it is going to be a private service, it was described as ing held in the lobby which sort of had a few of us scratching our heads. but talk about the area in which the service will be held. you've been there. what's it like? >> so i was just there in october of this year. and the lobby area is right outside the carter presidential museum. when i say outside, it's indoors. and it's a spacious area and seems like a good place for this kind of small mostly private event.

and there are so many lives that the work of the carter center has touched over the last few decades. and i think arguably the most important achievement is in the area of global health. so just to give you one of many examples, so there's a disease called guinea worm disease. a very, very awful malady that afflicts rural villagers, mostly in africa. and at the time jimmy carter began focusing on this disease it afflicted 3.5 million people. basically wrecking their lives and the lives of the other people in their village. and it came from a poisoned water, basically contaminated

water-borne ailment. so the carter center through its efforts has reduced the incidence of that disease from 3.5 million to 15. not 15,000. 15 cases. in the world. and what's especially interesting is unlike river blindness and some of the other diseases they've worked on which have medicines that you can use to treat the disease, this requires the training of villagers. and in that sense it's kind of the perfect jimmy carter cause because it lifts the people in the village who are learning how to prevent the disease, doing something for their fellow citizens in these communities and taking part in solving problems. and it's been a person to person

diplomacy. beyond him preventing wars in haiti and north korea and the things he did as a former president. but it's this person to person -- >> very, very hands on. something that i know the former president said that he appreciated about his post-presidential years, he was really able to connect with people, and i understand he had wanted to hang on so that he could have seen the complete eradication of guinea worm. and as you said, only 15 cases right now that are knowingly existing around the world. he came pretty darn close. we are watching the presidential hearse pull into the area. but as we look ahead to the service that will begin if it's on time, in about seven, eight minutes from now, we're of course giving it a little grace period for everyone to get in place. let's take a listen to what my colleague, msnbc's richard lui, got from chip, the son of the former president, chip carter. they had a conversation about what he's going to say in tribute to his father at this

service. let's take a listen, everyone. >> i have been working on it in my mind but i haven't written down anything. i don't know what i'm going to say. you know? i'm obviously going to thank the people at the carter center for helping dad so much after he got out of office. there will be some old-time political hacks there. dad couldn't have done anything without the help of thousands of people. and i kind of look at his friends as a puzzle. and every person he ever met and talked to is one of the pieces of the puzzle. >> and hearing there from chip carter, one of three sons, jack, chip, and jeff. and of course amy carter, who you grew up in the white house and became known to people quite commonly, we've been able to watch her. richard, when he said that he wasn't going to necessarily script anything, he didn't know exactly what he was going to say, you can kind of get a sense of perhaps why, because think

about the volume of things. how do you choose what you're going to say about your father, particularly a man like this? >> absolutely, alex. all of that coming together on a single day and a single moment. and chip carter throughout the years always being an individual that has been outspoken when compared to the other brothers and his sister as well. especially in recent years. and what he said was i'm not going to write anything down. they had actually asked me to write down what i was going to say, and he said i'm not going to do that because i'm going to think through it, just as i did for my mom a year ago. i wasn't sure what i wanted to say. i wrote it down. and when i got up there, he said, i gave one of the best speeches of my life for my mom. but i did not necessarily read off the notes. so i do not expect on this day that i will have it written down nor that if i do that i will say what i've written down because i'm going through the process of

grieving, of celebrating as we speak right now. and in fact the two hours that we spent yesterday together in plains, georgia he indirectly was saying it's a time for me to think through it as i say a lot of things out loud i have not since he passed. and not said out loud for probably weeks or months, a year actually since his mother passed. >> yeah. >> that drive that they just took as they arrived at the carter center, when i lived in atlanta, it's very peaceful. you drive outside of downtown as you know, alex, and then all of a sudden it gets absolutely quiet. and you get into the carter center. it's a series of all these circles. and they're levels. so the building is actually not like squares or rectangles. it's just five circles. and this is the circle of flags, i believe, all 50 states are represented here. and this is where they're arriving right now. but you can hear a pin drop -- well, actually, you can hear the

birds and the bees if you will in this space. and that was a 2 1/2-hour drive. when i took it yesterday, i couldn't help but think that they would be doing the very same thing just 24 hours later. and it is a beautiful drive. and this is, as you can see, beautiful weather. >> yeah. and this looks like this will be members of the family that are gathering. and we know also, i think there are about 3,000 employees of the carter presidential center given their extensive amount of work. so i think there will be a lot of people here. and we're going to pause just for a moment and take a listen, everyone, as we watch the president being taken out of the hearse there in a very dignified manner. let's all watch.

. >> ready. step forward.