stay, if you can, stay warm out there. appreciate it. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. happy monday. on the fourth anniversary of the january 6th insurrection and the first time since that day that congress has been once again taskeded with certifying the results of a presidential election, we begin with this from january 6th rioter stephen ayers' own testimony before the january 6th select committee. >> well, basically, the president got everybody riled up, told everybody to head on down. so we basically, we are just following what he said. i was hanging on every word he was saying. every word he was putting out, i

was following it. >> trump supporters stephen ayers saying i was hanging on every word he was saying, so donald trump told them to march to the capitol and on that day they marched to the capitol. donald trump told them, quote, if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore, end quote, and so they fought. here's what happened as told by the select committee. >> proud boys! >> be advised, there are about 300 proud boys, they're marching eastbound in the 400 block of independence, actually on the mall toward the united states capitol. >> usa! >> i am not allowed to say what's going to happen today because everyone's just going to have to watch for themselves, but it's going to happen. something's going to happen. >> hold the line! hold the line! hold the line! hold the line!

>> we have a breach of the capitol! breach of the capitol! >> while we were subjected that day was something from a medieval battle. >> i was aware enough to recognize of being stripped of and killed with my own firearm. i was electrocuted again and again and again. with a taser. [ crowd chants "hang mike pence" ] >> we came very close to using lethal options or worse -- at that point, i don't know. is the v.p. compromised? i don't know. like, we didn't have visibility, but it doesn't -- if they're screaming and saying things like say good-bye to your family, this is going on a whole other

level soon. >> hey! >> we're coming in! [ bleep ]! you [ bleep ]! you back up! >> can i have my cell phone back? [ laughter ] >> get him out. get him out. >> officer down! get him up! >> there's a thought out there that would have us forget about all this. trump won, who cares? around here, we care. the 1600 people who stormed the capitol that day, there have been consequences, the largest justice department investigation in history has led to arrests in all 50 states. the judge's sentencing have approached the cases with great moral clarity. the judge sentenced stewart rhodes, the leader of the oath

keepers, i have never said this to anyone i have sentenced. you pose an ongoing threat and peril to our democracy and the fabric of this country. another judge saying this, quote, at the end of the day, the fact is that the defendant came to the capitol because he placed his trust in someone who repaid that trust by lying to him. your vote doesn't count any more than anyone else's. you don't get to cancel them out and call for a war because you don't like the results of the election, and another judge, according to nbc's reporting of the time of sentencing had this to say, quote, it was absurd that the defendant join the mob in heckling officers calling them "f-ing nazi bastards" and "s.s.," given that the attack on the u.s. capitol about the most fascistic thing she's seen. it was the mob that was more like the nazis and the fascists that day, end quote.

many of the defendants' support for donald trump is as strong as it ever was according to some brand-new reporting in "the new york times." one new mexico official, the first removed from office using the 14th amendment in more than a century for his role in the attack on the capitol, he's enthusiastic about donald trump. the times reports that another rioter who tweeted that storming the u.s. capitol was the best day of her life believes this, quote, being sentenced for illegally demonstrating in the capitol also allowed her to fulfill what she describes as her lifelong goal of being a writer and a speaker, end quote. jena ryan, 54, has written a book called "storming the capitol: my truth about january 6th" which shows how it feels to be caught in the middle of a

polarized political, and thrown in -- for a tweet, end quote. >> the one that took place in 2021. as the new york times puts it there are reminders everywhere of the reminders that played out four years ago. the capitol is fenced off and increased secure the resources are on hand. for the first time the day has been designated by the homeland security department as a national security event, end quote. the promise of donald trump to pardon those kinds of people we've been talking about, the people who carried out the violence on that day, the insurrectionists and rioters themselves. that possibility has led the capitol police chief to speak out, as well. chief thomas major telling "the washington post" this, quote,

what message does that send? what message does that send to police officers across the nation if someone doesn't think that a conviction for an assault, or worse, against a police officer is something that should be upheld given what we ask police officers to do every day. serving as witnesses to the whitewashing and gaslighting of what happened on this day four years ago and vowing to never forget the truth of that day, that's where we start today. former capitol police officer harry dunn is here. we've come to know harry as not only one of the brave officers who protected the country and everyone in the capitol four years ago and also a friend of this broadcast. also joining us, democratic congressman of california raul garcia is here and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill joins us and with us at the table for the whole hour, former lead investigator for the january 6th select committee is

here and the author of a must read, the first must read of 2025 "harbingers" what it reveals about american democracy. harry dunn, i start with you. how are you doing, my friend? >> good afternoon, everybody. hello, nicole. i'm all right, i guess. making the rounds what i've been doing for the last four years, making sure people, one, people don't forget this day and two, we don't allow the people on the right, the maga extremists to whitewash this day and downplay what happened that day. i really, it was the first time i saw that quote from the chief of -- my former chief. i'm really glad that he said that. one of the things that stands out with regard to the pardons and forgive me if i'm getting ahead of myself, and one of the things that stands out is those people that attacked the police officers there, they were there

violently attacking police officers. the people that were trespassing and entered the capitol illegally, they didn't spend years and months in jail. they paid fines and got probation, but the people that donald trump will be releasing on the street are the people that brutally, savagely attacked police officers, and that's one of the things that i'll always be out there pushing back on. you heard senator thune today said he wants to move on from january 6th and you know, a lot of the republicans say -- i would love nothing more than to move on from january 6th. it's been four long years, but the problem is donald trump is not moving on from it. in fact, he's not only not moving on from it, he's continuing to lie about what happened that day, and as long as he's continuing to do that and i appreciate you earlier in the segment when you said, nicole, we care about what happened that day and i'll be pushing against that rhetoric. >> i'm going to follow your lead. so let's talk about the pardons. if you could sit face to face

with donald trump and tell him who not to pardon, what -- what line in his -- actually, let me play donald trump first because i think we should try to understand, i guess, how he views this day in his own false reality. >> the crowd was unbelievable, and i mentioned the word love. the love -- the love in the air, i've never seen anything like it, but there was also a lovefest between the police, the capitol police and the people that walked down to the capitol. >> it would be my great honor to pardon the peaceful january 6th protesters or as i often call them, the hostages. they're hostages. there has never been a group of people treated so harshly or unfairly in our country's history. >> you would pardon those rioters. >> they shot a young lady in the face who was protesting. they shot her in the face.

you know, nobody died that day. >> four officers died by suicide. what would you want donald trump to understand, if he could stand corrected of this statement, quote, was there a lovefest between the police, the capitol police and the people that walked down to the capitol that day? >> it's total b.s. it's a abrication and it's him and his own reality and that's understand what happened at all and everyone who saw that tape and saw what happened that day would not call it a lovefest. robert sitnick who was a donald trump supporter would not call it a lovefest and he didn't lose his life because of the actions of january 6th, if he were still with us. he would not call it a lovefest and the officers at the capitol now, michael fannone, no one would call it a lovefest except

someone not in reality. yes, there were people there who were peaceful at the capitol that were upset the at the violence going on. sure, those people aren't sitting in jail. those people are not hostages. those people got probation or fines for misdemeanors that they tried -- that they were convicted of or they pled guilty to. the people that are sitting in jail prisoners, not hostages, are people who savagely beat playoffs. period. >> i want to read you what officer gannell wrote. i required multiple surgeries, years of rehab and treatment for recurrences of post traumatic stress disorder. i was vilified and called a traitor as trump called awe day of love and a, quote, peaceful protest by warriors, patriots,

political prisoners and mistreated hostages. trump is returning to the presidency at 78 while i had to leave my career i'd worked my whole life for at 42 as a result of injuries i incurred while doing my job. i sometimes wonder why i risked my life only to see him return to power stronger than ever. it's hard to witness a see a rich white man to get rewarded for treachery while i'm punished for fulfilling my duty. it's hard and it hurts. >> what i feel in reading that is that you and officer gannel and officer fannone, this event was such a traumatic event where a democratic and republican lawmakers ran for their lives on that day. we saw the tape from the

committee. there were no republicans walking while democrats ran. i think josh hawley ran faster than anybody if anyone was clocking it, but i wonder what you feel about the power and the importance of truth now that trump will be president again? >> sure. that passage by sergeant gannell is very powerful. i feel the emotion within it. the difference what i would change in it if i wrote that i would just change it's not about a person. you know, we weren't protecting independence. we weren't protecting republicans or democrats, we were protecting the institution that we silly enough for us to believe in that is worth protecting. i'm saying that in joking when i say silly, but we believe in this institution. we believe it's worth fighting for. we believe that whoever holds that seat, it's not about them. it's about that seat and having the o. to be able to replace them and keep them in there every two years, every four

years, six years, depending on the seat that it is. those institutions are worth protecteding. protecting. so when the election went the way that it did it showed that people did not care enough to say what happened on january 6th was disqualifying. it was not because of us lack of telling the truth and people didn't know. we worked our ass off during the election to do whatever we can to stop donald trump from gaining power, but it warrant wasn't enough. as discouraged as it was, there's still no quit in me, we'll continue to fight and keep on going. i don't know what it's going to look like, but i know that it's necessary going forward. >> harry, one person who is awear of how damaging the truth and the facts of the damage of the truth and investigation would be his campaign was donald trump. i mean, he went to the supreme court to argue for immunity because of this case.

what does it say to you? you famously called on congress to find the person who hired the hitman. you describe the attack as something carried out by a hitman who were the insurrectionists and the foot soldiers and you called them to investigate and get to the bottom of the person who put it in motion and they did. liz cheney famously said he lit the match. jack smith would go on to file charges, federal rj charges fors role in inciting a deadly insurrection and only for the supreme court was there no legal accountability, but what does it say to you that donald trump worked so desperately to keep that case out of the courts. >> that he knew he was wrong and he knew he could count on his friends in congress. listen, it's so many people that deserve blame for january 6th and you know, i blame a lot of the institutions for failing us, and i believe that the people were the final fail safe to protect our institutions, and we

didn't do it on november the 5th, but one person that comes to mind is mitch mcconnell. he did not want to get to the bottom of it. he did not want to hold donald trump accountable and donald trump, for all intents and purposes, he wouldn't be on the ballot if mitch mcconnell had the nerve to vote like he said what he said in his speech when he blamed donald trump for the events of january 6th. unfortunately, his vote to acquit did not match what his speech said on the floor during his impeachment hearing, and that's one individual i think that i have no problem placing the blame solely, although a lot of americans didn't show up at the election, and i believe there's some blame there, too. >> perhaps the newest gift you've given to me already in this new year as you said a couple of minutes ago, that you don't have quit in you. neither do i, and so we'll walk

through these uncertain times together. harry dunn, my thanks to you for talking and starting us off. we'll bring everybody else in on the other side of the break. there's much more ahead including vice president kamala harris' role today presiding over an election she lost two months ago declaring that democracy still stands. plus how that one day, four years ago has ultimately shaped the president-elect and what we should brace for over the next four years. that to him will be the only way to succeed in his new administration and that warning coming from people who were in the room where it happened the last time and later in the broadcast, the legal troubles following him into the oval office not necessarily wiped away just because he's taken the oath of office 14 days from today. we'll have all those stories and much more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues afk break. don't go anywhere. you don't have to settle. ask your gastroenterologist if switching to rinvoq

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. as you know, he called out to these people to continue their violence. my husband being a victim of all of that, and it's still -- he still has injuries from that attack. so it just goes on and on. it isn't something that happens and then it's over. no. once you are attacked you have consequences that continue. so i don't -- it's really a strange person who is going to be president of the united states who thinks that it's okay

to pardon people who were engaged in attacks. >> we are back with congressman robert garcia, claire mccaskill and tim haney. you wanted to jump in and set the record straight. >> yeah. you played something in the opening about a writer saying she was prosecuted for a tweet. people in america are prosecuted for actions, not words. tweeting something, chanting "stop the steal," marching with flags and that's not criminal. no one has been charged for that. the only people who have been charged went beyond speech into conduct and actually entered the capitol, stepped over the broken glass and the bloody steps and went into a clearly, a crime scene and marched or assaulted police officers to break in or worked with others in a seditious conspiracy to use force to disrupt the joint session. so to be clear the justice

department has applied that line because they must. it's what the law requires. no one here is being prosecuted for political views and everyone prosecuted from the least to the most culpable, there are degree, but everybody crossed the line into conduct and that's why they were charged and that's why they've been adjudicated guilty. >> what do you feel when you watch this event which shouldn't be remarkable, but until the end of time will be because of what happened on january 6, 2021? >> you know, it's a mix of things today. it is a horrible reminder of where we were four years ago and still kind of shocked that people would put back in power someone who really instigated the attack, but at the same time today showed that this is the way it should work. the vice president who lost the election certified the election. congress did its job to go through the solemn proceeding of receiving each state's officially selected electoral votes counting them and certifying the president-elect

as the winner. even if they disagree with the policy, that's been a tradition, republicans and democrats, we get back to that today. that's a norm and a law and thankfully there was no controversy like there was four years ago. >> is that what it showed us or does it show us that there's only one party in the american political system, the democratic party that still respects our democracy? >> it showed us that people still respect democracy? >> today it was kamala or president biden in "the washington post" saying i will invite president-elect trump to the white house and i will be there on january 20th. this is a person he called a threat to democracy. nonetheless, he realizes it is in the nation's interest to have a peaceful transfer of power and that is the way it should be, nicole, and that has not been one party or another like it seems to be now. >> congressman, i would like to

ask you about your time in -- in the rection and what is today like? what does it feel like? what does it sound like? what can you report from where you're standing? >> obviously, i was in the chamber earlier today during the certification, and yes, it was certainly a solemn moment. it was a reminder that as democrats and a party we have a constitution to follow. i was incredibly proud and moved by vice president harris. she clearly set the tone for congress, for the party, i think for the country in the way that she has said her words this morning on the video, her statements over the past few weeks and certainly today just a poise and was a complete class act on her part. so i'm very proud of her today and proud of our party.

the same can't be said, of course, for donald trump and what happened four years ago, and i think it goes to show you that we are a party of responsible grown-ups who believe in democracy, and it's just a shame that that can't be said on the other side. >> congressman, take us inside your observations and interactions with the insurrectionists who trump has said publicly that he plans to pardon on day one? >> so just in this last about a year ago i was asked on behalf of the house caucus and the oversight committee to serve as a witness to a visit by marjorie taylor greene and some other republicans to go visit the insurrectionists here in d.c. in the jail and so i was there to observe, and what i saw made me sick to my stomach. the absolute worst day i've had since i've been in congress was witnessing marjorie taylor greene approaching these

criminals, these violent insurrectionists and high fiving them, giving them hugs, encouraging them. there was about 20 of them gathered in a room that we visited. they came up to us. they were talking freely, asked to shake my hand. i refused, but to see the reaction of these republicans treating them like heroes was shameful and disgusting. these are people that attacked our capitol, and by the way, about 17 of that group, 17 of the 20 had actually attacked police officers and are being held in the jail here in d.c. for attacking violently police officers that protect our capitol and our government, and so to have folks that marjorie taylor greene call them hostages and same as donald trump and treat them as heroes should disturb every single person. i'll never forget those images, and it's important that we remind people who those folks are, and what donald trump is about to do which is to pardon

them. >> and if he pardons the insurrectionists who assaulted police officers on that day, it is the telling of the federal judges appointed by democratic and republican presidents that they, quote, remain a threat to the fabric of our democracy. how do you make sure that those individuals don't go on to carry out more acts of violence on behalf of donald trump should he ask them to? >> i mean, absolutely, let's be clear, number one, if donald trump pardons his insurrectionists, he's pardoning violent criminals in our very government and he should be a shamed and it's unbecoming of an american president. at the same time the department of homeland security and the federal agency's local law enforcement should be very aware that there are violent people that want to overthrow a government and want to be let out into the streets as judges

and as folks in the justice department and as folks in the agency has clearly said. so this whied idea that we shou allow this to happen should be shameful. any american should be disgusted by these people who tried to overthrow a fair election and overthrow, essentially, our government. >> how do you protect everyone involved in the adjudication of the crimes committed by the insurrectionists and we read some of their very clear statements about recidivism and about the person who inspired the attack. how do you protect the system, the rule of law, the judges, the jurors, the prosecutors if you have a chief executive and someone who exonerates acts of violence against the cops. >> it's difficult and it's a challenge that congress has in front of itself and unfortunately, you have majorities now dominated by republicans and extremists that

have no interest in uplifting institutions in the rule of law, but i think it's important that as democrats and as a congress that we bring light, that we push, that we bring the truth out in front of the public and at the same time our agencies have a role to protect our judges and folks that have been involved in these cases. i know there are current conversations at the white house. they are actively discussing this. i know there have been discussions about pardons and how agencies can protect those that have been involved. we support, i personally also support those efforts, but we've also got to be very realistic that we don't know the revenge tour that donald trump is about to go on. he is a dangerous man and a dangerous person as president and as we think about the folks he wants to put in charge of our agencies, kash patel, pete hegseth, tulsi gabbard, christie noem, people that have no business in the security apparatus and the very people that would be responsible in

taking on other insurrectionists in the future. this is a solemn and sad day for the country. i'm grateful that kamala harris and democrats that we followed our duty allowed this election to be certified. donald trump won the election, but that doesn't mean that we should stand by and allow him to do whatever he wants to damage our institutions and our country. >> claire mccaskill, let me bring you in on this. the congressman points out, you have a credibly accused rapist in pete hegseth. you have a dog murderer in kristi noem and someone found liable for sexual assault in donald trump and a convicted felon. you have an incoming president who describes people who physically beat law enforcement officers who describes that beating as a, quote, lovefest. lovefest. how do you protect everyone else in the chain of the rule of law?

how do you protect the jurors? how do you protect the judges? how do you protect the courts themselves? >> well, today was certainly a bittersweet day, and candidly, i'm bitter. i mean, i'm bitter that a higher political price wasn't paid for what donald trump did on january 6th. something is broken, and we need to acknowledge that, and the other thing we have to keep front of mind, nicole s that donald trump didn't win 50% of the votes. this is an evenly divided country. it's about half and half, and a chunk of those folks that voted for donald trump ignored everything except the fact that they don't like the status quo. the antiincumbency thing is real. it's real all over the world. the hangover from covid and the inflation and the pain that people felt and frankly, a lot of the immigration patterns

around the world have made people feel like things are out of control, and they didn't want the status quo. they didn't want somebody who is close to an incumbent, if not seen as an incumbent, but that doesn't mean they buy into everything donald trump represents. so the one thing i would say today is i get it. i talk to people every day and say, you know, claire oop. i'm so disskurnl kurnled and so depreed, we cannot tune out. we have to tune in. 50% of the country agrees with us. 50% of the country doesn't want this. they don't want somebody who played footsie with assad in charge of the intelligence community. they do not want a guy who is not capable and competent running the finest military in the world. they do not want people who attacked police officers pardoned for their crimes. so there's work to do here, and

you know, together we are going do it. others on this network are going to do it, but the people in this country have to decide that they don't quit fighting just because donald trump won the electoral college and that's what kamala harris represented today, and she did it with a smile on her face, and i couldn't be prouder of her. >> much more on that part of the story in a second. congressman, we're going to continue to call on you. thank you very much for starting us off today and sticking around for our conversation. claire and tim, stick around longer. just ahead, we'll go there and have that conversation. vice president kamala harris said what she did today was nothing, but normal. how she presided over the 2024 election she fought so hard to win. much more to come. we'll be right back. more to

this announcement of the state of the vote by the president of the senate shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons elected president and vice president of the united states. each for a term beginning on the 20th day of january 2025, and shall be entered together with the list of the votes on the journals of the house and the senate. thank you very much. [ applause ] >> and just like that, no

rioting, no rampaging, no ransacking, just a refreshingly routine, normal certification today. thank god. absent of any threats of hanging anybody, but if the last time proved anything to anyone it is such instances of democratic normalcy are for our country at this moment newsworthy and remarkable and too fragile to be taken for granted or covered as anything other than that for now, and it appears that the vice president went about her constitutional duty today with that in mind. >> well, today was obviously a very important day, and it was about what should be the norm and what the american people should not talk for granted. i do believe very strongly that america's democracy is only as strong as our willingness to

fight for it. every single person, their willingness to fight for and respect the importance of our democracy, otherwise, it is very fragile and it will want not be to withstand moments of crisis and today america's cy stood. >> former harris senior adviser and top aide to kamala harris brian fallon is back. we've missed you. you've been busy. what was it like for you, personally, to watch your boss do her in her words, constitutional duty today? >> oh, i and i think everyone who worked with her was extremely proud of her. she showed her classic sense of toughness and grit that was on display in her early days as a prosecutor in those courtrooms. it was on display during the campaign, during the one and only debate that she had against

donald trump. it was on display the day after the election where she gave a concession speech at howard university, and it was on display again today. you know, it was never a consideration to shy away from this moment. she felt it was a very solemn responsibility and her day as vice president to show the country that what happened four years ago was an aberration, and if she was going to do anything in her closing days as vice president she was going to restore the peaceful transfer of power. she talked a lot about the campaign about upholding democracy and upholding our institutions and the norms and today she walked on that. >> what does she mean when she says it is up to every single person, every single day to, quote, fight for our democracy? >> well, i think it's one thing today to treat this ceremony, this certification process as a perfunctory matter. that's what we want to get back to, for it to be a return to

normal where events like today do not become occasions for violent insurrections and rather than the election was hard and donald trump won the election and there was no disputing that. she conceded that day after the election at howard university and you know, she wishes the president well. however, if the president follows through on the things he talked about during the campaign then all of us as citizens will have a duty to stand up to him on those things. maybe a lot of that was bluster. it's possible that he won't follow through on some of the things he discussed in the campaign, but if he does, it's up to everybody to do their patriotic duty and to not be weary and to give into what donald trump may seek to do in a second term, and she has said for her part that she'll continue to remain in the fight in her own way, exactly what that mean, i think she's still figuring it out, and she has some time to figure that out. right now she's focused on completing her duties as vice

president, but i do think she very much intends to continue to have a voice and speak out on the issues that were at stake in the election and that she still feels strongly about. >> claire mccaskill, i want to come back to something you said, you showed your true emotions today. you described yourself as bitter. everyone that utsch whattes this show knows i blame aaron rkin about all of his scripts about politics and my heart was broken day after day after day for the 25 years spent in politics and now covering it, but there's this great scene in "the american president" where michael j. fox is arguing with president shepherd that americans are so desperate for leadership that they'll crawl through the desert and when they realize that the mirage of leadership is a mirage they'll eat the sand. i think some version of that could be articulated for the 38%, 49% of americans and

probably 100% of my viewers who voted for kamala harris to be president, and i think they would like to see a lot of fight in the leaders of the 48.9% of americans who voted for kamala harris and tim walz, and i think what a lot of them anecdotally feel is defeatism. when do you think that turns into the fight that the 48.9% of americans were inspired by? >> i actually think it happens when there are steps 10 taken that impact their lives, and i think you're going to see on dismri a prioritization that the rich get their tax cuts. >> that's been great for folks who thought this was all about somehow making gasoline cheaper and ground beef cheaper by keeping more immigrants out of the country and i actually think the biggest danger we have,

nicole, is to not bring our policies as a party down and meet people where they are. we've got to, listen, nobody cares more about a democracy than vice president kamala harris and all of us that are talking today, but we've got to make sure that while we're talking about the lofty goals of maintaining our democracy that we don't forget that we've lost a lot of people who take a shower after work, not before work and those folks really think that donald trump is going to take care of them. donald trump has no intention of taking care of them. he has the intention of taking care of his billionaires and all of the tech bro billionaires and all of the people in the ilindustry that has lots and lots of money. he doesn't have a plan to take care of those folks and that's the plan we have to stay focused

on because that's when people realize that the donald trump they thought they were electing is a mirage and they're really getting an ego maniac who wants to see himself on tv. >> i have to sneak in one more break. no one's going anywhere. we'll all be right back on the other side.

we're back with brian, claire and tim. tim, your new book sort of widens this out to include your investigation of charlottesville, of january 6th,

and i guess what i will ask you to do is to dot the line forward. what are you worried about moving forward? >> there's a lot that connects charlottesville to january 6th that's developed in the book and one of the core thing, nicole is both of those incidents started with a core impetus, one issue that sort of became, metastasized into a forum for grievance and anger and the civil war statues and are we going to tear them down or leave them up? that became an argument about race and replacement theory is christian nationalism. the capitol started about the election and there were a lot of people there that were angry about covid restrictions or some of the same people about charlottesville, angry about dei program. so what we have in this country, i believe, as the fundamental division is no longer left versus right, but it's people who trust in institutions and those that are really angry at them and that's why what vice president harris said to me at the very end when she was

walking out of the chamber about the necessity is so important. >> everyone has to fight for our democracy every day. >> absolutely. one of two reactions to that lack of faith in institutions, anger, like we saw in charlottesville and at the capitol or apathy, and that, to me, is as much of a threat as anger. if too many people say i'm not engaged and it doesn't matter who i vote for, they're all the same and they sit it out. they give outsized power to these fringe perspectives that don't represent mainstream america. if everybody votes and everybody pays attention and if everybody educates themselves, i think democracy is fine, the problem is people tune out and they're bothered by what they see from government and what they hear and that's really dangerous and that's what the vice president correctly is hitting on. we can't just go away for four years. we've got to be vigilant. >> brian, that's been a phenomenon on the right. how do you make sure that the apathy doesn't impact the energy

and the enthusiasm of the pro-democracy coalition and the democratic party? >> i go back to the comment that senator mccaskill made before the break which i agree with in its entirety. there are certain issues that helped donald trump win this election, probably. i think his demagoguing of the border, unfortunately, probably helped him and there were a number of other issues that i think he went in spite of, not because of, and so two-thirds of the countries are against him pardoning the january 6th insurrectionists and i don't think as the senator referenced that the public supports tax cuts for the healthy that he and congressional republicans have in mind in terms of pursuing through this reconciliation bill and if he jacks up costs of groceries for people and that was a huge issue in the campaign and the implication of a lot of his tariff proposals would be to make that problem worse. so when he follows through on some of these things i think that's where there's an opportunity for the battle to be rejoined and for our side to make its case, and for a lot of these people that may have voted

for trump simply because they wanted a change in the status quo to reconsider that position and that creates an opening, i think, for the folks that will be running in the midterms and an opportunity to take the house back and an opportunity ultimately in 2028 for whoever ultimately seeks the presidency. >> trump has said this. it's hard to make prices go down. so even the issues that -- that shaped or drove how people voted are already things he's conceding defeat on. i'll give claire the last word. i have to sneak in one more break before i do that. you don't want to miss that. don't go anywhere. don't want to. don't go anywhere. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean. not spreadsheets... you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our matching platform lets you spend less time searching and more time connecting with candidates. visit indeed.com/hire

speaker: my little miracle is beckett. [christina perri, "a thousand years"] i have died every day waiting for you. we wouldn't be where we are without saint jude. and in turn, we wouldn't be where we are without those people that have donated.

leaders -- i need one more. >> the leaders in the democratic party that are going to succeed are going to be those who do not look at all the trump voters as the enemy. we have to realize are a bunch of people that voted for truck that would block for fire and think he is great, but there are many that voted for trump that do not like him. they just really thought maybe their lives would be better under a trump presidency then on trae harris presidency. it is up to the deep leaders of the democratic party to reach out to those people. not to write them off. we need those people. they need to come home to a party that behaves the way we behave with class and deadly and respecting the norms, but also fighting for them and if we get distracted by his craziness and do not stay focused on how we can help those people, in their lives every day, we are going to make

a mistake and fall into the trap of making it all about trump is crazy not about how we can do better. >> all right, with that said, all of you are on the hook. same place, same time, to be continued. tim's new book is really, really important. he oversaw the investigation into the deadly attack in charlottesville and the january 6th select committee investigation. it is a must read. harbingers, pick it up now. next, the lesson trump took january 6th. we will come back after a very short break. do not go anywhere. .

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mike pence, hope you will stand up for the good of our constitution and for the good of our country and if you are not come i will be very disappointed in you. i will tell you right now. >> i want the american people to know i have no right to overturn the election.

on that day, president-elect donald trump has to -- i chose the constitution and i always will. >> hello, everybody. it is 5:00 in new york. we return today to that uniquely american tradition of a peaceful transfer of power from one elected president of the united states of america to another. lawmakers and vice president kamala harris certify the results of the 2024 presidential election. it was, frankly, only remarkable because it was not remarkable at all. according to people who know donald trump and have witnessed him up close, it is the january 6th of four years ago that forms the man who will be sworn in two weeks from today. we will take today to say out loud the name of a republican whose name may never again crossed the lips of republicans in good standing with donald trump. mike pence. the disappearance of mike pence from planet earth, from the

republican ticket, maga memory. after his unwillingness come after four years of loyal service to donald trump, to put trump ahead of the constitution on that one day is a stunning feature of trump season two. we are now seeing what it looks like for trump to have had a litmus tense in place from mike pence as he selected this season to be present -- vice president. >> if i had been vice president, i would have told the states like pennsylvania and georgia and so many others that we needed to have multiple slates of electors and i think the u.s. congress should have fought over it. that is a legitimate way to deal with an collection that a lot of folks, including me, think at a lot of problems. i think that is what we should have done. >> ding, ding, ding. i wonder why. why him. tell us why? it is a dystopian non-reality that also affects much of

president-elect donald trump's new cabinet. listen to who he choose to be our ambassador to the world, to the u.n., elise stafanik. >> what would you do? >> it would not have done what mike pence did. i do not think that was the right approach. i stand by what i said on the house floor and i stand by my statement, which was -- >> you would have rejected it? >> it was unconstitutional overreach by pennsylvania and other states and it is important we continue to stand up for the constitution and of legal insecurity elections, which we did not have in 2020. >> i will not be a mike pence, but never used to be a thing, to be as squishy as a mike pence. it is a thing now. just listen to press max former national security advisor, also the far-right ideologically speaking, a former republican party, john bolton. he writes in a brand-new op-ed in the new york times that what trump wants, what trump demands now, is more than just loyalty,

saying, trump, whose understanding of the constitution is sketchy really wants his appointees to display fealty, not mere loyalty, but submission. john bolton, hard to describe what that will look like in practice, what we will be covering as a news organization. quote, how does fealty work in office? this is the real test of appointees' personal integrity, whether their loyalty is to the constitution or to trump. the defense department, where military officers are obligated not to follow illegal orders. what happens if trump orders a domestic deployment that violates an ax? will pete hegseth, who mr. trump has chosen, urge a rescinding order or just pass it along to the armed services? will uniformed officers perhaps

advise -- differ? how deep into the teeth of command could this chaos extend and what lasting damage might it cause? pete hegseth, meanwhile, who faces sexual assault allegations and allegations of problematic alcohol consumption from former colleagues at fox news is that to have his confirmation hearing comments next week on january 14th. in the wake of january 6th, hegseth spread the baseless conspiracy theory it was actually antifa who stormed the u.s. capitol that day and cbs news is reporting according to the resources that senate majority leader john thune has privately told trump he believes hegseth will have enough votes to be confirmed. that is where we start the hour with our favorite experts in front. from the chairman of the rnc, the co-host of msnbc's the weekend, michael steele, and also former obama deputy national security adviser ben

rose, plus distinguished political scholar and professor at princeton university, eddie god's back, and at the table for the our komo new york times editorial board member and msnbc political analyst, mare gaze. i feel like we should -- you know, because he once existed. mike pence, mike pence. mike pence. >> there was once a creature in the forest named mike pence. i am -- until they tried to hang him. >> it is stunning. >> it is stunning. it is. how quickly people fell from -- for the lie. i look at that elise stafanik live and i'm thinking to myself, you are such a submissive. you are so desperate to be in the room, to be in the game. you will capitulate and you will change your view, you

know? there's so many republicans like that. the other aspect that i thought was fascinating and raised a question for me was you look at it from the political side and with john bolton and what he wrote. it also applies to the judicial side, to the same idea of loyalty and fealty. we watched three supreme court nominees go before hearings and tell us and lie to us about what they would and would not do, right? they have now shown that fealty, that divisiveness, by giving trump all of the power you will ever need, more power than any president in the country's history has ever had. now, they are vested in him because all he has to do, nicole, is to think about something he wants to do and say, oh, that is right. that will be an official act. i am good. so, this is where we find ours at the dawning of the end of the first quarter of this

century, with this republican party and why so many of us stand in opposition to its direction for the country because it is anti- constitutional and it is anti- rule of law and it is a power grab for the sake of power, and that was manifest four years ago. one last point, this is the first presidential election since 2020 and it feels like we have done other things in between, you know? was there presidential election? no, this is the first time since then that we have had a peaceful transfer of power and it was only peaceful because the power was given back to the people who tried to steal it the last time. >> yeah, i think michael, what i need to hear you say more about is it is not about president-elect donald trump this time. it is about us and president- elect donald trump is like the

tumor that is only kept alive because of the vibrancy of the blood supply. the blood supply has always been the republicans who want it both ways. they want to send a signal message saying, man, and with liz cheney, but she lost her seat and i'm not going there. they have always been the reason, the tumor thrives and survives and ultimately kills the body, which is the republican party. they used to stand for the constitution and it now makes a mockery of the constitution. it used to revere, or at least pretend to revere, the men and women of the military. it now threatens them. they place them in the chain of nuclear command, someone who might be a blast to the party, but pete hegseth is described as showing up for work with alcohol on his breath and there is a 22 page police report describing an alleged incident of sexual assault. tulsi gabbard talks like someone who believes in the goals of assad.

he lives in moscow. and the idea that -- in covering the story, i find the most boring part of the trump story. >> he is a board. >> what is terrifying is what is wrong with john thune? >> though, part of what you said there triggers a question for me and it kind of goes back to, you know, my time as national chairman and certainly my time even before then involved in the party and watching its evolution, this grappling with certain truths that it either did not want to address directly or tried to set aside. my friend, eddie glover, was with us and we have this conversation over a number of years and we challenge each other in the thinking around this and that is maybe, just

maybe, that blood supply that you referred to was bad from the beginning. that this idea that this party ever stood for those things, that it fell so quickly away from really mattered, that maybe, maybe the political expediency was propping up this idea of the constitution, propping up this idea of the rule of law, propping up this idea of individual liberties and responsibilities in a manner that would never lead it to impinge upon the individuals in this country against their rights and support the government taking control of those rights. maybe that was the fallacy. maybe that was the lie and a lot of is involved in this party, myself included, did not see that or were just really idealistic, saying, yeah, this is what we're going for.

in reality, the subtext was that is not what it is about. and trump pulled back that curtain and exposed the truth of what the party was always about. actually, there is historic relevancy to that. when you look at the capitulation after the civil war, how quickly that have been for so many republicans. they turned aside reconstruction. the capitulation on civil rights. republicans who turned away from the very fight for the liberty and freedom of african- americans. the capitulation for the rule of law with allowing someone like nixon and now trump to actually be the standardbearer of the party. barry goldwater, stripping away the particle was relevancy on civil rights. the near embrace of the john birch society in the 50s. we have been here and we either excepted for what it was or thought it was actually something else.

i think now we know better. >> eddie, glad you have been involved. i have added that the relation under democracy. michael, we defended in our time, working for george w. bush and john mccain and others, but republicans defended those actions in the spirit of protecting our democracy. now, to be on the side of tools, tactics, and people who, in any other country, would be described as autocratic, is perhaps the final capitulation. >> yeah, you know, first of all, happy new year. i have not seen you since january 1st. it is great to see you. michael is absolutely correct in this regard. we can tell a long story about the complex underpinnings of american democracy, of hour two

party system and i think we can tell a story that really takes us back to madison, nicole, about the importance of virtue, that character matters. even if folk disagreed under certain conditions, even if all were motivated by a cynical pursuit of power or however you might describe it, there was a presumption that people who actually aspire to public office exhibited a certain kind of virtuous character, even if they fall short, right? that is what we presumed. we might even have some senior understandings of how politics function. what happens when you throw the necessity of virtue out the door? so, we have some folks who are not decent who do not care about character. you are only in for it, to lose michael language, the power grab come only in it for themselves. they can be political nihilists or cynics were motivated by exploding the cracks and

crevices within our society that have been there since the beginning, but what we have, and madison told us, the nation cannot survive without virtuous people. who did we just elect? who will be inaugurated as the president of the united states on january 20th? he will exploit the cracks and crevices and our society for his own purposes. >> i would add described as a despicable person by mitch mcconnell, described as america's hitler by j.d. vance, and the people who have seen him up close and personal describe it more harshly than any of the five of us ever have. i want to ask you, ben rose because we talked about things that used to divide the two parties and i feel like eddie and michael are taking us somewhere deeper. about character and about what it looks like in this country when there is an absence of character and our leaders. that feels like a failure of imagination on the part of

people like us. >> yeah, i think that is right. i think it is right to pull back the camera. the reality is, you know, romney used to say there is a thin veneer between civilization and anarchy, essentially. we are barely hanging on. we are in areas of immense power between self interest. if you look at human history, you know, most of human history is a story of naturalism and autocracy. democracy is a relatively -- modern democracy is a relatively new thing and it is not the predominant strain of politics around the world. there have been weak moments when it seems like things were moving in the wrong direction, but the common impulse is for politicians and political parties to just accumulate as much power as possible i think, frankly, in the u.s., after world war ii, with the awesome responsibility of the cold war,

there was a -- there was self policing and the parties. when nuclear war is at state, when basically there is the most powerful military and -- in history at the world at stake, there were some boundaries. nixon got a little too far out of bounds and his own party was willing to discipline him. to me, what is so important is if mitch mcconnell had decided after january 26th to vote to convict donald trump, i am sure the senate republicans, you know, would have followed suit, enough of them at least, and we would not be here. this is not just president- elect donald trump out of bounds. mitch mcconnell and people like him facilitated this, absolutely. john pinpoint something important. you talk to people in the republican party and i talked to the people in washington. there were not the votes to confirm headset. it seemed like he was going to go the way of matt gaetz then you saw whipping people into shape. we saw maga activated through

steve bannon. if they're going to deliver someone who is so clearly unfed into that position, the existential things that we cannot afford to lose over the course of the next four years, the politicization of the military and the justice department. i do not know how you want to do that. the fact that john thune is so quickly, you know, telling trump, i will get you the votes for this, it shows who he is following this line and the republican party is acting like nationalists parties we have seen around the world that with her own self interests and tap into these dark recesses of nationalist politics ahead of any kind of national interest and i think that is what is alarming. we are operating without a net for the next four years. >> we will suffer through it. it feels that way, right? i have to take a break. i will bring mara in on the

others side. we have a stark reminder today of just how different the second trump administration is going to be and the absolute fealty demanded of those he is putting into positions of power. later in the hour, breaking news to tell you about in the trump hush money election interference case. how president-elect donald trump is now one more step closer to potentially taking the oath of office on inauguration day as a convicted felon. the white house continues after a quick break. do not go anywhere. go anywher when you're a small-business owner, your to-do list can be...a lot. ♪♪ super helpful. ♪♪ [ cheering ] what are invoices? progressive makes it easy to see if you can save money

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kash patel should not be confirmed, first of all. i think the terrorist attack in

new orleans and my heart goes out to those who have lost loved ones in that attack. just, it underscores the importance of having someone directing the fbi that has experience and has judgment and has character and will prioritize defending the country against the violence we saw on january 6th, not someone whose top priority is political vendettas, who believes in deep state conspiracy thinking, not someone who is unqualified like kash patel. >> eddie and mara, your thoughts? >> well, happy new year. >> happy new year. >> just listening to our colleagues, i have a lot of thoughts. i have also been able to get a little space from the story for the past month and the thing that i keep thinking about is that -- at the new york times, elsewhere, we defended democracy all year.

we warned about the threat that president-elect donald trump and trumpism posed. it was not enough. and it is striking because it does feel like there are a lot of americans for whom maybe democracy as we have known it has not been working or they are unconvinced by it and when you look at the behavior recently of both major american political parties, you know, i do not feel a lot of confidence that they are able to win the votes of the american people based on the policies and platforms, and the democratic institutions that have governed this country for a long time, so it is almost handing it over to president-elect donald trump and the democratic party, a complete failure over the past year and many years to acknowledge that things were not really working for a lot of people. you know, it is striking. >> what kind of things?

>> one thing is we talk about inflation. i do not think it is just about inflation. as, it is the economy, but many americans are not doing as well as their parents were. there are many americans under 40 who do not have savings and wages are not going up. we are talking about massive issues with affordable housing and i think it was a mistake to think that was only a big-city issue. and i think, also, you see that in democratic governance of cities and states, or you see that issue. there is a lot of votes of no- confidence among democrats in new york who are angry with leaders. i think it is pretty widespread angry and disillusioned with the system. i think backing up for a moment, one thing that has been sticking with me is this moment days before the election, i happened to be in georgia. i was at a kamala harris rally and barack obama was there. it took all year, but i think

he come in that moment, finally got through to the heart of what i am talking about, where he said, i understand america. somethings feel broken, but please do not think president- elect donald trump is the man to fix that. i think that, you know, we have got, as americans, journalists, the political parties, they have got to speak to the lives of everyday americans. we focus so much on trump and trumpism, understandably, but what about how people are actually living their lives and how they are experiencing life and how that interaction may influence or impact their views on democracy? there is a lot of work to be done and a lot of soul- searching to be done. i do not think any of it involves suggesting that donald trump deserves the benefit of the doubt or he is the answer. he is still the threat. >> you guys are so great. i appreciate all of you for that. michael steele, mara -- she went even deeper. i mean, there is this thing out there that you get that is

totally nonpartisan from any person that is angry that they cannot walk into cvs and the razors are locked and that aaron that you should look four minutes takes 40 because you have to wait -- every section has a button for the thing you need and it is a different person that comes to unlock the thing and if you need -- you really screwed if you need allergy medicine, razors, and diapers that is a whole 30 minutes. but this idea of disorder, it is something that obama talked about and i think what mara is getting at is the democrats are interesting -- interested in solving it, and democrats are the one with the policies, but whether it is a broken message delivery system, whether it is something else obama talked about in his convention speech, the sort of isolation and loneliness and despair piece that no one covers or talks

about and no one has figured out how to stage into our politics, but there was this feeling of discontent and an h that no one was able to scratch successfully. >> donald trump did. he did not scratch it for purposes of solution. you just scratched it for purposes of irritation. >> yeah. >> that is the whole thing with retribution and the whole vendettas narrative, that we have been living under. absent of a response, a possible response that addresses those concerns that people have, they are going to fall back into that lane. they will align themselves with no one gives a damn. i really appreciate a lot of what mara said, but take this one level deeper. there are some selfish sobs out there.

this country come in many respects, has become a very bad reflection of that. we are -- this generation is very selfish. i'm very glad this is not the generation of world war ii. because i look at our response to things and it is, what about me? so, there has always been a balancing test for this country between our concerns at home, which create walls of isolationism, and our concerns abroad, which are about the projection of small d democratic values. so, we have sort of regress to the point as to the kind of leadership, particularly from one party that, as we started the conversation, leveled up this grand idea, this global idea of that projection of small

d democratic values since the end of the second world war because they backed away from that. they no longer articulate it. they have fallen into this idea of, well, what about me? that is a lot of what is reflected in the hillbilly elegy. that is a lot of what is reflected in the narratives that we see now and here now and it is hard and that is the balancing test people will have to work through this year because the stress test is just beginning, folks. >> and i guess to sort of tie this up, but i think the punchline or the end of that speech in georgia from obama is, as you said, president- elect donald trump has no intention of solving it. >> that is correct. >> he has already admitted it is hard to make things go down, things like price is. so, we will be watching. then rose, michael steele, mara gay, thank you for having this conversation. when we come back, trump currently triggered by a

decision for judge juan merchan to sentence him. what the judge just said about it. we will tell you next. at the tim e and single mother. i was working 60 hours a week, still couldn't pay the bills. skipped meals so that they could eat. it's been hard because one thing falls into place, ten things fall out of place. you know, i just can't do this alone and make it work. one in five children face hunger in america, and food costs are rising, but everyone needs nourishing food to thrive. and they can when we work together so our neighbors can feed their families. call or go online right now to join feeding america with your gift of just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day.

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friday 10 days at of his inauguration for his 34 felony count convictions in the hush money election interference case. in a ruling issued, he also denied trump's motion to dismiss the case, rebuffing his argument that his election victory should nullify his conviction. in that order, judge merchan said he will not sentence trump to any prison time but as the new york times reports today, quote, even absent any real penalties, the jury verdict is its own form of dishman for trump, a measure of accountability that he remains eager to a race for joining our coverage, attorney general for national security, the department of justice, mary mccord is, and former top official of the department of justice, andrew weissmann spock there also the co-host of msnbc's newly rebranded podcast, main justice. i love that. i love that name. i feel like we will talk about that every single day.

first, on judge merchan. your thoughts? >> i think his decision was sort of old and trying to uphold the rule of law. it is important for people to understand he had very limited options. it was basically trying everything now or putting everything off for four years because the one thing that is true is there is this temporary presidential immunity while someone is president. so, the idea in many ways of having this linger or be over the presidents head for four years, you would think in some ways it is something that a president would not want, to be like him okay, i can appeal it. you know, i think that judge merchan did the right thing, but i think what is going on in the political realm, i think they do not want a bad day between now and the 20th, which is friday, that would be a

sentencing of the president- elect, and that way his lawyers have heard it, but the judge has heard as to the judge's view of what happened and what he did, that the judge has said some of that in his written decision, but there would be another day of really, you know, appropriate, i think, bad news for the president-elect. so, what he is trying to do is put things off and even though judge merchan has said i will not issue a stay, president- elect donald trump said -- he is going to the public courts to say, you should now reverse that and you should now issue a stay so that the sentencing does not go forward on friday. >> can i ask a question that is banging on in my brain? is tyvon branch going to represent him and he -- >> he is the proposed nominee, so he has not officially been nominated, but, yes, this will sound like a broken record, but

in normal times, the fact that somebody is your personal counsel would be a real strike against you for then being that of the justice department. even having somebody who is white house counsel, who then moves over, is something people sort of do not like. they want to make sure the justice department is independent, but there is more than that. not only is he the proposed deputy attorney general, but judge merchan come in his written decision, really takes to blanch and another trump lawyer to task for their rhetoric" that justice ginsburg and chief justice roberts saying this really undermines the rule of law and when you think that the people who are being proposed to run the justice department now have, as part of the record here, the judge saying you went over the line. >> you know, we lived near lake

tahoe. they have a post in the side, but as the winter goes on, you see how high the snowpack is. i feel like todd blanche is blaring front-page news, that the pack is so high we cannot see the height of the post anymore. this is, this is something we were handed by that affirmation of todd blanche and the company memorandum dated 2025, they gave notice of automatic stay of criminal proceedings or the alternative motion for immediate stay. that goes on and on. i'm not a lawyer, but i think a legal analysis that might hold water is ridiculous. and these people get to run the justice department. what are you thinking right now, mary? >> you know, i am surprised, to be honest, that todd blanche

has gotten more political with his tone postelection than even before because almost immediately postelection, very shortly thereafter, the incoming president did indicate that he intended for todd blanche to be the deputy attorney general, so one would have thought, not that he would withdraw from representing donald trump, although i think so many would in that situation, but that he would moderate, i think, his rhetoric a bit, but as andrew indicated, these postelection pleadings, if anything, have been a bit more over the top than what we used to see before. i think andrew and i would agree that we have talked about it on our podcast. todd did, you know, a very respectable job defending president-elect donald trump at trial. he did a lot of things we would expect a defense attorney to do. he did sometimes use rhetoric and use a lot of adjectives with the judge that i think were not necessary, particularly when he was making legal arguments, but many of

the things we expect, he did. maybe i should not be surprised because, you know, goodness gracious, this is more of what we have seen from many people around president-elect donald trump in terms of their political rhetoric, but i still thought in these papers before judge merchan, there might be a little bit of moderating. judge merchan, what he did today, and he actually did this at trump's request, he would not have done it otherwise, but trump said in moving for a stay, please give me a decision today, the same day i'm moving for a stay because i need to have time to do further appellate proceedings if you do not give me this. obviously, that is a short turnaround. i think what judge merchan was saying, you know, quickly rejecting the arguments you noted that were ridiculous. some are less ridiculous than others, but he is saying, look, what you have said to me, mr. blanch, is not authoritative on this question and you can take whatever avenues or seek

further review, but i am denying your motion and we are going forward with sentencing instead of intervening a higher court order. >> and i push back on todd blanche did good job? didn't trump lose and get convicted of 34 felonies? >> he did lose. it would not necessarily mean that means a defense attorney did not do a good job in the sense of defending their client. adrian and i both prosecuted many cases where the prosecution wins, but we would still say the defense attorney did what the defense attorney is supposed to do. they are supposed to zealously represent their client. i would not take the loss as meaning he did not do his job, but you are correct. there are things he made mistakes on, including one of them that formed part of the basis for judge merchan's ruling denying a new trial or a vacating of the jury verdict based on presidential immunity. evidence of official acts as

evidence. one thing judge merchan said is before trial. therefore, you basically missed out on the opportunity to object to them now. that was a mistake. >> i think it is amazing that no anymore. never. you never hear it or never see it, not even in press releases. we will be right back. have you always had trouble with your weight? same. discover the power of wegovy®.

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as reported earlier, john thune has privately told trump that the votes are there for hegseth. what does that mean about the fbi report? does that mean the fbi vetted him completely and they have all seen it and they are fine with what the fbi turned out? >> we do not know yet. we will have a better sense of the confirmation. i mean, you would think that there would be -- if this was normal times, the fbi issues, you know, really detailed reports on everybody who has proposed a necessary -- it could be classified or it could be revered by the senate in secret. and if it is serious, they can take appropriate action. we do not know yet. it seems remarkable to me that we were just talking about todd

blanche and i think one of the reasons people do not talk about todd blanche and his proposed nomination is that when you see the other people, like you talk to -- you have to do triage. i guess the biggest thing i would say, since we have not had the confirmation hearings yet, is that in light of the acts of violence we have seen in the last 10 days, i cannot stress enough how much this is not a game and it is not a time for people to learn on the job and you are making a point that no one talks about these being the best people for the job, which is what the american people deserve and it is fine for the people to be aligned as a policy matter. the election has consequences, but please find people who are qualified. you and i have worked in washington, mary. we know how important these

jobs are. >> listen, people who -- i was a staffer, so i was vetted for my background check simply to see if i could have access to schedules as a mid-level staff. the secretary of defense has access to covert military operations taken by this country and others and my background check included interviews with my high school and college boyfriends. there are ex-spouses. there are organizations for which pete hegseth mitch manage their funds. why does he think the votes are there if the fbi -- is the fbi telling johnson what they know? would they do that? >> that would be a neutral, to have that. to even have a hearing yet, he has not even been officially nominated yet. it is fine to sort of do some talk, but, to me, it is hard, to me, they say, do not worry. it is already decided.

there is a reason for hearings. >> do you think the fbi report will be complete and you think it will involve democrats? >> that is a great question. i would hope that certainly, the senate, their institutional concerns, would make things available to everybody. that, to me, seems if there's anything left to the institution, i would think that has to be -- >> pete hegseth and gabbard, and patel -- >> that everyone gets to see it. what would be surprising to me is the idea that you would say the votes are there now before the hearing. it is fine to say what your inclination is in the same way judges can say i am inclined to do x, but they wait for the actual hearing, to hear all the arguments, and so, you know, it might be true that there are people who are going to vote among party lines regardless of what happens, but can you at

least be decent, to have the decency or the veneer of being objective? >> it feels like a scandal of epic proportions. if he knows what the fbi has found on pete hegseth and is saying party line, or if he does not know. it just feels like without knowing what the fbi has unearthed, pete hegseth, how could you know what it is? >> absolutely. i have one word to -- katrina. we know what happens if summary is put there for the wrong reasons or the right background and fema, as important as it is, pales in comparison to the department of defense. >> thank you for the report. thank you, mara gay for the conversation. we have a break and we will be right back. right back.

right now across the u.s., people are trying to ban books from public schools and public libraries. yes, libraries. we all have a first amendment right to read and learn different viewpoints. that's why every book belongs on the shelf. yet book banning in the u.s. is worse than i've ever seen. it's people in power who want to control everything. well, i say no to censorship. and i say yes to freedom of speech and expression. if you do too, please join us in supporting the american civil liberties union today.

for over 100 years, the aclu has fought for your rights and mine. including the right to read all manner of books. so please call or go online to myaclu.org. for just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. you can become a guardian of liberty and help protect all the rights promised to us by the u.s. constitution. make no mistake, this move to ban books is a coordinated attack on students right to learn. this is a clear violation of free speech. that's why the aclu is working to fight against censorship in all its forms. it is so important now more than ever. so please call or go to myaclu.org and become an aclu guardian of liberty, for just $19 a month. use your credit card and you'll get this special we the people t-shirt and more to show you're helping to protect the rights

of all people. the aclu is in all 50 states, d.c. and puerto rico defending our first amendment right of free speech and all of your constitutional rights. because we the people, means all of us. so please, call or, go online to myaclu.org today. tonight, president joe biden and dr. jill biden will attend a prayer service for the victims of the new orleans terror attack. likely one of his last acts of the chiefs -- they stopped on bourbon street for the memorial. they said about the attack, quote, to all the families of

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