work. i just hope people were paying attention. >> and the fact, i mean, we were talking about this with congresswoman debbie dingell, the fact that you saw harris there presiding over her own loss and pence, who tried to do the same thing, ultimately did do the same thing. >> yeah. >> of course, faced the massive headwinds and the insurrection. >> exactly. >> a stark contrast. "the washington post"'s eugene robinson, thank you for joining us. see you on "morning joe." that's "way too early" for this tuesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. today, i did what i have done my entire career, which is take seriously the oath that i have taken many times to support and defend the constitution of the united states. which included today, performing my constitutional duties to ensure that the people of america, the voters of america, will have their votes counted, that those counts matter, and that they will determine then the outcome of an election.

i do believe very strongly that america's democracy is only as strong as our willingness to fight for it. every single person, their willingness to fight for and respect the importance of our democracy. otherwise, it is very fragile and it will not be able to withstand moments of crisis. and today, america's democracy stood. >> vice president harris after the certification of the 2024 election results, pointing out the stark contrast between yesterday and what took place four years ago yesterday. a mob of trump supporters stormed the capitol in an effort to block what is usually a mundane certification process. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, january 7th. with us, we have the co-host of our fourth hour, jonathan

lemire, msnbc contributor mike barnicle is with us. pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson is here. and nbc news and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator claire mccaskill. joe, it should have been a boring process, but all eyes were on the capitol yesterday, especially given what happened four years ago and given the division in our country that still exists about whether or not that was a massive moment in history, never to happen again. >> you see numbers that came out in polls yesterday about republicans, how they felt in january of '21. how they feel now. obviously, republicans far less concerned about it today than they were immediately after it happened. as far as those that said it was okay, the numbers jumped in the gallup poll from, like, 21% to 30% of those republicans who

said it was okay. you know, i've been talking about this a good bit, and i just -- it's important that we keep talking about it. we keep talking about the perspective of keeping everything in proper perspective as far as what the election was. i will say, what the biden/harris presidency was. we'll have peter baker on a little bit later on. willie, we keep hearing about landslides, this, that, and the other. a win is a win is a win. it was a 1% window. it was a 1% win. so the election was extremely close. even though the trend lines were all the republicans' ways in just about every demographic group, it was still 1%. less than 1% in wisconsin. it was about 1.5% in pennsylvania. it was a little less than 1.5%

in wisconsin. so we are politically equally divided country. also, we're going to have peter baker on, and i read this this past weekend. pretty remarkable, and it is something that biden and harris, they're not feeling it now, but historians certainly will note this, only because it's the facts. i know the facts don't matter to a lot of people. their feelings matter more which, of course, is ironic. i remember seeing in 2020, all these flags that said, "f your feelings, trump 2020." then, of course, it was their feelings. they didn't care about the facts. it was their feelings that stopped them from saying, yes, of course, joe biden won. it just doesn't feel right. it doesn't feel like he could have won. it's the same thing with this election. oh, things are terrible. things are horrible in america. biden has been a failure.

harris has been a failure. that's all we heard. let me just briefly read a little bit from what peter baker said. again, these are facts. i hope facts don't offend you all that are watching, that want to keep believing how horrible things have been under biden and harris. this is peter baker. we'll have him on in an hour. for the first time, willie, since george w. bush's inauguration, no american troops were at war overseas on inauguration day. murders way down. illegal immigration fallen below where it was when donald trump left office. stock markets are roaring and finished at their best two cent record highs. jobs are up. wages are rising.

the economy is growing as quickly as it did during trump's presidency. unemployment is as low as it was before the pandemic. domestic energy production higher than it has ever willie, did you know our manufacturing sector has more jobs right now than any time than it has in 25 years? so the manufacturing sector up. drug overdose deaths down. of course, as an economist for moody's says, who has to look at economies across the world and rate them, america's economy -- and this is not even debatable. america's economy is the envy of the world. >> yup. >> even inflation down.

were there some economic headwinds because of inflation over the last three years or so? yeah. but i just say all this to say, history going to have a clear record on the biden presidency. when we move beyond the sound and the fury signifying nothing on social media about how horrible joe biden's presidency has been, or on cable news net works saying how horrible joe biden's presidency has been, data, the facts, i think they may matter to historians. the facts are going to show that trump is inheriting a pretty strong economy and a country that is going the right direction socially, whether you're talking about, you know, whether you're talking about jobs, talking about illegal immigration, whether you're talking about drug overdose

deaths going down. i could go on and on and on. but things are pretty strong right now, and make no doubt, republicans will be measured two years from now and four years from now against where america is at this point. >> yeah, the case you just laid out and that peter baker lays out in "the new york times" this morning -- we'll talk to him about it in a few minutes -- makes it different to argue that donald trump is entering a moment of american carnage, as he called it. four years ago at his inauguration, only he can rescue the country from where this is. it's there in black and white. talk legacy, go back to four years ago, in the grips of a pandemic that the biden administration helped to lead us out of with the help of operation warp speed, with that vaccine under onald trump, as well. now, republicans get washington. it's theirs. they've inherited this. donald trump and the white house, they've got the house, the senate, and now they have to

deliver on all the things they said they were going to deliver on, all the things they promised during this campaign. they'll have to do it, as you've said many times, joe, with a very, very slim margin in the house of representatives. right now, mike johnson, the speaker, has a four-vote margin. that'll go down to two when he loses a couple members to the new administration in this cabinet. they're not going to come in with the mandate they think they have and just write checks and do whatever they want, however they want. again, this is not a country that's in the grips of american carnage right now. this is the country that peter baker lays out, joe, and also it has to be said that unemployment jobs are good. there are things from the biden administration that were too little, too late. when we talk about the military, no troops on the ground. the afghanistan withdrawal was an unmitigated disaster that cost the lives of 13 american

service members. there were republicans joe biden was not re-elected. inflation still too high and was during the last couple years. but he does leave the country in pretty good shape for the next president. >> well, i mean, you look at the numbers, mike. i mean, just, again, i'm not talking about where we are today, what people are thinking today, because, you know, the die is cast. i'm just saying, we've all seen this. we know how history goes. four years from now, eight years from now, 20 years from now, when people are looking back at this administration, they'll say, okay, so what happened in that election? wait, wait, you had jobs at near record lows? you had america's economy outpacing the rest of the world? you had crime, crime at 50-year lows. violent crime at 50-year lows.

don't get mad at me for saying that, y'all. get mad at the facts. if you don't like the facts, i mean, i can't help ya, but crime is at 50-year lows. violent crime is. murders way down. drug overdose deaths going down precipitously. i could go on and on and on. mike, my biggest point is, republicans, they need to be careful when they take control. they need to be careful. because right now, they have an economy that's the envy of the world. and when you're sitting with a lead like that, you don't want to move too fast. you don't want to take radical chances. i will just tell you, as a conservative, and i hope there are still conservatives in the house of representatives, as a conservative, i'm very concerned

about the fact we have a $36 trillion debt. >> yeah. >> and republicans are talking about blowing a hole wide open in that debt that will cause inflation to spike to numbers that we haven't seen since paul volker was running the fed and moved interest rates up to 21%. because, at some point, that debt bomb is going to go off, and at some point, the rest of the world is going to say, wait a second. you're $36 trillion in debt, and you're going to add $10 trillion more to the debt? like, those are the sort of things -- and, of course, most economists would also say tariffs -- those are the sort of things that are going to cause this economy to move from being the strongest in the world to possibly struggling like the rest of the world. i just hope that republicans take care with what they're inheriting. they're never going to say joe biden has done a good job with

the economy, but they know the numbers. they see the numbers. they know where wall street is. they know what happens if they screw this up and suddenly everybody's stocks start plummeting, everybody's 401(k)s start going, you know, through the floor. they need to be careful because, as peter baker reports in "the new york times" this weekend, and we're talking to him in an hour, right now, the election is behind us. they have a set of facts that, actually, it's going to be incumbent on them to make sure they don't screw it up. >> well, joe, you're right about everything. peter maker is right about everything that he put in the paper. facts do matter, and they matter to everyone's life in america. the other thing that matters is the biden presidency initiated past and sponsored and strengthened two enormous acts of legislation, comparable to

lyndon johnson's 1964 89th congress we made legislatively in the time. but something has happened in the culture over the years. america is now uniquely, i think, a nation of the moment. the fact that the republican party is being handed the strongest economy in the world, which it is, matters less than what happens in aisle 3 to the cost of eggs. in a moment, people can turn on a candidate that they voted for in 2020 and change their minds because of the gas prices, because of the cost of eggs. everyone gets that. that's been politics for 100 years. there's no doubt about it. but joe biden can stand on his ive record. the republicans have that record now. they are standing on it in terms of the economy, as we've pointed out several times already today. the strongest economy in the world. if it slips, if it slips, it's

on them. gerald baker in the "wall street journal" had a pretty good piece today which has to do with it. it's new year's resolutions for different political people and resolutions for himself. his new year's resolution that he suggests donald trump take is be a president for all the american people. not just, you know, your friends. don't go after your enemies. be a president for all the american people. that's maybe the biggest question of all that we're going to face. >> we are going to face that. jerry baker, obviously, it is a great op-ed. i want to read more from it today. but, mika, you know, mike just brought up a great point about grocery bills, about inflation, and inflation is down, but inflation over three, four years. we're talking about all these numbers that, again, republicans will be judged by four years from now.

will america be better off four years from now than today? there are numbers i'm concerned about, regarding tariffs and $10 trillion more in debt that's going to spike inflation if it's not done the right way. that, of course, will be up to president trump, and that'll be up to the republicans. but there's an important point. i just talked about the macro, how great things are if you look at the data. the micro ends up being this, and i heard -- you know, when i interviewed bill clinton, 25th anniversary of the clinton library last month, his takeaway message was this, you've got to meet americans where they are. >> yeah. >> ben wickler, who i hope, i hope ben is going to be the next chairman of the dnc -- not because i have anything against the other people running against him, but because he's been playing against a rigged deck in

wisconsin since 2010. some of the worst gerrymandering in america that i've ever seen in wisconsin, yet ben has pushed democrats back into a winning position in the state of wisconsin. almost helped harris carry wisconsin over the finish line this past year. but ben said this, listen to these stats, fascinating. for americans who follow the news, kamala harris won by 6 percentage points. she was plus 6. for americans that don't follow the news regularly, she lost by 18 points. when you hear numbers like that, you realize, we can sit here and talk about how great things are going in america, but for these people who don't follow the news regularly, that have alternative sources to get their news, for them, chances are very good their headlines were the signs outside the gas stations when they were driving past and saw

gas prices up much higher now than they were four years ago. the stories they read were not "the new york times." the only story they needed to read was on the receipt when they were leaving the grocery store and their grocery bills. they saw grocery bills were just too high. so, yes, two things can be true at one time. america's economy can be the envy of the world. things can be going better than anybody else. but if democrats don't go out and meet people where they are and say, "we understand. we're here, and we're going to make things better. we're going to fight like hell. fight like hell until those grocery bills are down," i mean, that's what bill clinton's message was. that's how you win those elections. you meet people where they are. you let them know, things will get better. that's going to be your singular

focus. anyway, it's just fascinating. can't wait to see jerry. we'll talk about jerry baker's op-ed, and, also, we'll be seeing peter baker, the fabulous baker brothers in about an hour from now. >> yes. with respect, the harris campaign did focus on some of the things that were still yanking at this economy. housing prices, they had a plan for it. the costs were still too high for people, even though on the macro, the economy and the build put in by the biden administration was extremely strong. under extremely difficult circumstances. i think you're right, joe, republicans have to worry about building on this economy rather than tearing it down. >> right. >> that will be the tension that lies ahead. by the way, as the election certification was taking place

yesterday, president trump accused president biden of hurting the transition of power. trump wrote on social media, quote, "biden is doing everything possible to make the transition as difficult as possible, from lawfare such as has never been seen before, to costly and ridiculous executive orders on the green new scam and other money-wasting hoaxes." shortly before writing that, trump posted a photo of the crowd at the ellipse four years ago, right before a mob of his supporters would go on to storm the capitol. jonathan lemire, talk about hurting the transition. that picture is quite something. >> yeah, and we all, of course, know that president trump didn't give then incoming president-elect biden any transition at all. >> right. >> you know, because of his efforts to underminecooperate. the biden team had to play

catchup, impacted by the pandemic. other aides said to me the biden team has been nothing but professional. president biden has bit his tongue a number of times. we heard from the president in an op-ed over the weekend, saying that, yes, january 6th should, of course, be remembered, he's calling for an annual commemoration, he knows that american democracy has to be honored. the results have to be accepted. donald trump won. he is going to meet with donald trump the morning of the 20th and will attend his inauguration. what he is doing now is, yes, there's still executive orders. they're still trying to get some things done, to codify some of his accomplishments, as any president would do. that's not, claire mccaskill, undermining a transition. that is securing a legacy, to be sure. the west wing is very mindful of president biden's legacy. but it's also simply trying to codify accomplishments, which is hardly a unique thing for an outgoing president. but, instead, we have donald trump seemingly unable to do what jerry baker has advised, which is to be a president of

all people. we should note, every chance donald trump has had the opportunity to choose division or unity, he's chosen division in the past. here he is highlighting the mob on january 6th, attacking the outgoing president. over the weekend, screening a documentary about the 2020 election, which he still believes was rigged. he still will not concede. it seems to me, as democrats honor their democracy, they certify his election win, donald trump still picking division. >> yeah. you know, there's a couple of things that come to mind on this. joe is right that the numbers in the united states of america are good. one of the problems we have is not only are there a huge swath of americans that aren't following the news, they don't get an international perspective. they don't realize what great shape we're in compared to the rest of the world. the other thing that's going on in the rest of the world that hasn't been talked about enough

is the antiinkum -incumbency mo. it doesn't matter whether you are on the right in the uk or on the left in canada. if you are an incumbent right now, the hangover from covid, especially as it relates to migrants and as it relates to inflation, has caused an anti-incumbency mood worldwide. that is the hole that kamala harris was trying to dig out of. she did a remarkable job in a short period of time, but at the end of the day, there was a swath of americans that believed they would be better off, that those eggs that barnicle referred to would be cheaper under donald trump. now, he is going to be an incumbent in about ten minutes, and he is going to be expected to bring those prices down. with the one-two punch of debt and tariffs, that's a tall order for him. to say nothing of the fact he's got a margin in the house of representatives that is so tiny,

that when it is time to fund the government in march, they will not be able to fund the government without democratic votes. so that's when the democrats have to stress how important it is that we stay focused on people who can't afford to buy their groceries. >> remember, donald trump has been managing expectations, even on that. in that "time" person interview of the year, he said that it'd be tough to get the prices down right away, but he'd work on it. gene robinson, you're writing in "the washington post" about "why we should remember january 6, 2025." a stark contrast yesterday compared to 2021, when vice president kamala harris stood, performed her constitutional duty without incident. lasted just over 30 minutes or so. called to mind when al gore had to do the same for george w. bush. joe biden actually did it in 2016 for donald trump. on and on. what stood out to you yesterday? >> what stood out to me was that

it was a normal, ceremonial certification of the election as we had consistently every four years until 2021. until january 6th, 2021, when donald trump assembled that crowd that he showed, that he highlighted yesterday, and sent the mob up to the capitol to conduct a violent invasion of the capitol, in which 140 police officers were injured. several took their lives afterward or died directly because of this. members of congress were legitimacy in fear of their lives. they were chanting "hang mike pence."

this was all on donald trump. everybody knows that it was. it's the only time in american history that we failed to peacefully transfer power from one party to the other, going all the way back to thomas jefferson's inauguration. and we should never, ever forget that. what should remind us is the contrast. the contrast with what happened yesterday, which was kamala harris, vice president harris presiding over the certification of her own defeat, as al gore did in 2001. as richard nixon did as vice president in 1961. as every vice president has peacefully done throughout our history. and so this is how it's supposed

to work. but republicans can't just accept election results when they win. and so the real test, i guess, will be the next time we switch from a republican president to a democratic president. we see how the party behaves, and whether it behaves in the american tradition, in the democratic tradition, or the way it behaved in 2021. >> yeah, you know, mika, as we end this segment, i just want to circle back to something that claire brought up. i think we all forget about it maybe a little bit too much. that is, the pandemic. covid, we brush it aside. we talk about all these other things that have happened. i do believe that when history is written about this election,

and about this time, they're going to talk about what a massive impact covid had. the pandemic, that dark chapter in american history had on voters. it still hangs over us in a sense. the memories of what it meant, not only for us, for our children, for our parents, for everybody. and there's just not a much stronger pull for many americans than nostalgia. we remember, of course, the immortal words of those political philosophers. gladys knight and the pips. when they sang, "the way we were," gladys started it with, "the good old days. the good old days. everybody remembers the good old days." well, as bad as today seems, these will be the good, old days

for our children. and the pull of nostalgia to the before times, before the pandemic, led so many people to have nostalgia for those times before march of 2020. things were better back then. the economy was better. everything was better. things are horrible now. if we could have only gone back to the before times. donald trump was president in the before times. i like it better back then than where we are now. so we can talk again about all of these trend lines that are extraordinarily positive. again, let me underline it, that republicans, whether they like it or not, will be judged two years from now and four years from now by how great things are on the macro level. and they will, of course, be judged where people live.

will they be able to bring grocery prices down? will they be able to bring gas prices down? but we can never look past the extraordinarily powerful pull of nostalgia, and people just thinking back to how things were before the pandemic. before that crack in time that shattered the lives of almost every american. >> yeah, with hundreds and thousands of people dead. a country pulled together by technology and social media at the same time because they couldn't go out. it made a lot of impact as to how we look back now today. we forget. we forget -- >> amnesia. >> yes, major. i think it is social media, which is a whole different conversation. let's pause. still ahead on "morning joe," a federal judge has found former trump layer rudy giuliani in contempt for failing to comply

with a $148 million defamation ruling. we're going to go over what happened in court yesterday, and what's next with that. plus, president-elect trump loses a bid to delay friday's sentencing in his hush money case. while he is not expected to face any jail time, our next guest says that doesn't mean the story is over. we're back in just a moment. mbe. sleep up to 15 degrees cooler on each side 9 out of 10 couples sleep better. the queen sleep number c2 smart bed is only $999, our lowest price of the season. shop now. this is steve. steve takes voquezna. this is steve's stomach, where voquezna can kick some acid, heal erosive esophagitis, also known as erosive gerd, and relieve related heartburn. voquezna is the first and only fda-approved treatment of its kind. 93% of adults were healed by 2 months. of those healed, 79% stayed healed. plus, voquezna can provide heartburn-free

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a new york judge denied president-elect trump's latest request to delay a sentencing hearing in his hush money criminal case. the hearing on trump's 34 felony convictions currently set for this friday, just ten days before he takes office. let's bring in former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. lisa, good morning. happy new year. >> good morning, willie. happy new year. >> good to see you. people have been tuned out throughout the holiday. let's tune them back into what's happening exactly here. this is the case where donald trump was convicted 34 times on felony counts in the hush money trial. what was judge mer chan ruling on? >> he was ruling on the durr vikt and the verdict and the indictment. in addition to the arguments we're familiar with, meaning you can't use certain evidence to convict me because i was in the white house at the time, he made a timing-based argument.

as president-elect, the same courtesies that are extended to a sitting president in terms of being immune from prosecution, those should extend to me during the transition, as well. because i'm so busy preparing to take the office, that essentially, the same principles that animate immunity for sitting presidents should also apply here. that was rejected, as well. >> what do you expect? >> judge is the first but not only decision maker here. a file yesterday was article 78 proceeding. that's when you sue a government actor, like a judge, for example, saying that person interfered with your constitutional rights. trump filed the lawsuit yesterday. one of the relief he asks for in that suit is an immediate stay of all further proceedings. count on there being a flurry of activity today in new york appeals courts, and perhaps in the coming days before we get to that friday sentencing. >> lisa, let's say it does move

forward. it's been expected all along that donald trump, even before he won the election, wouldn't face prison time for this. the judge reiterated that. but if it moves forward, what are the possibilities of the outcomes? >> in the opinion willie was referring to, his preference is an unconditional discharge. it is what it sounds like. there is no penalty associated with an unconditional discharge. no probation, no jail time, nothing other than the conviction staying in place. that's what merchan seems to be fixed on, is upholding the verdict and honor the jury that decided against trump on the 34 felony counts. but if there is a sentencing, the other thing we should count on is merchan addressing trump and talking to him about the gravity of his crimes and his lack of remorse. if you read the opinion he issued the other day, you can see him taking on both of those things almost as if merchan is planning, well, this may be my

last opportunity to address these things. i might not get to that sentencing. therefore, i'm going to address in my written opinion maybe the sort of things i'd say to this guy if he were in front of me in court for a sentencing hearing. >> written opinion, if this happens, would trump have to be there? >> trump has the option of being there. again, in merchan's opinion, he says, i'll allow you to attend the sentencing virtually. that's a courtesy extended to almost no other defendant that i can think of. however, remember that trump coming to court every day during the trial was a real test on the security and other resources of the new york state court system. him coming for his sentencing on friday, particularly given some of the violence that we've seen in other areas of the country at the beginning of the year, that's something i'm not sure new york state welcomes right now. therefore, merchan gave him the option. let me know if you want to come in person, but it is fine with me if you appear virtually. let's move to rudy giuliani. where does this go next? >> rudy giuliani faces even more contempt hearings beyond the one

he had yesterday. yesterday was about whether rudy giuliani turned over enough information about his palm beach condo. he is saying his palm beach condo is his primary residence. he shouldn't be forced to turn that over, to satisfy a $150 million verdict that two women that found him guilty of defamation -- >> has he turned anything over? >> he's turned some things over. he turned over, for example, the keys to that vintage mercedes-benz convertible. >> okay. >> until yesterday at least, they didn't have the title to the car. they had the keys to his condo, but similarly, they don't have the deed. they don't have the framed joe dimaggio jersey because no one can figure out where exactly it is. now, we're arguing whether the palm beach condo is subject to the order. that's the issue he was held in contempt yesterday. but on friday in a d.c. court, he faces another contempt hearing. that's about his continued defamation of these same two women. there was an injunction that both sides agreed to. rudy essentially said, i'm not going to take the same lies about you guys. i'm not going to say you tried to rig the 2020 election for joe

biden when you handed each other a ginger mint under the table. i'm not going to say that anymore. yet, what did he do in late november? in the run-up to thanksgiving, on two successive radio broadcasts that giuliani had, according to the women and their lawyers, he did exactly that. on friday, he'll be in a d.c. federal court facing a contempt hearing in yet another court. of course, there is still the issue, mika, of what you said. has he turned over enough assets? that's an issue that the judge in the southern district of new york has to determine. if money is not enough, what's the ultimate penalty going to be? how do you get rudy giuliani to comply if he is already cash poor? one absolutely and one available to the judge is jail time. >> joe. >> but it doesn't seem like this is about him being cash poor. it seems like him not doing what the court is asking him to do or telling him to do, which is to turn over the title, whether it's to his cars or turn over

all documents to his new york city apartment. i guess what i don't understand is, why does this keep rolling on into the day and night and day and night? i'm sorry, am i being naive here to think that if any of us kept ignoring court 's orders the wa rudy giuliani is ignoring court orders, i mean, we'd be thrown in jail. my only frame of reference, i guess, is where i practiced law and grew up in northwest florida. man, a judge tells you to do something, and i'm dead serious, you do it. if they tell you a second time, you're in jail. this is just black and white. i don't understand, why do we keep getting these news stories

that he kind of doesn't feel like doing what the judge is telling him to do? >> i think, joe, part of it is understanding what it is he hasn't done and is doing and where some of these things are. obviously, we know where the apartment is. for example, rudy has also been ordered to turn over a collection of watches, establishing where they are, who has possession of them. that takes some time. but you're right to say it's a function of his willful, non-compliance. the judges are seeing that. i think we will end up in a situation, sadly, where there may be no alternative to get rudy giuliani's compliance here but for putting him in jail. i don't think we're all that far away from it, but we're not quite there yet. he is entitled to due process here. he is getting that process. >> right, of course. >> from both courts. but it is also a both/and situation. you can be both cash poor and willfully noncompliant, and that is a description i'd give to giuliani in this instance. >> to your and joe's point, the judge said, quote, giuliani

willfully violated an unambiguous order of the court, attempting to run out the clock by stalling, and now is considering appropriate sanctions. we'll see where that goes. one more for you, lisa. just happening overnight, donald trump and his team seeking to block the release of jack smith, the special counsel's, report on the two federal cases he was investigating. it's in the hands of attorney general merrick garland in these final days. obviously, those cases have been thrown out. they've been -- >> yes and no, right? >> but there is a report that can be made public. >> there is still an ongoing case in the sense of the department of justice, rather the special counsel, is appealing the dismissal of the case as to the co-defendants, walt nauta and carlos. their lawyers asked judge cannon to block the release of the court. through their motion, we learned trump's lawyers have seen a draft of the report. they pressed jack smith's team to access, and they got it in early january. it's on the basis of the review they wrote to attorney general

garland and said that presidential immunity, among other reasons, compels him to block the public release of the report. for the trump lawyers, presidential immunity is like the elastic hair band that keeps on giving. they stretch and stretch it to see where else it can apply. i'm not sure protecting a president from the peculiar public association with the this relates to the report supposed to contain facts we already know. from what we understand, the report isn't going to contain much, if any, new information. this appeal to garland, please conceal this from the public because this will be embarrassing or damaging to the president-elect doesn't carry a lot of water, at least with me right now. >> joe. >> let me ask you just a legal question here. the judge, the florida judge had said that jack smith had been appointed improperly. now, the argument is that if

the -- if jack smith, special counsel, had been -- specialppo improperly -- i'm sure the appeals court will overturn her as they have time and time again -- but is that not at least for where we are procedurally a strong argument, saying, how would you allow jack smith's report to be released in this documents case if the district court judge has ruled that he was improperly appointed? again, if that is the case, then would we have a situation where the 11th circuit overturns her again? and once they overturn her, then at that point, the report can be released. but, of course, by that time, we will have, most likely, pam bondi, the attorney general, and it won't be released. >> well, it's no accident, joe, this is coming up on january 6th overnight into the 7th, right?

this is a race against the clock. i would note to you that while judge aileen cannon has held the special counsel didn't have the right to prosecute donald trump and his co-defendants, there is law and other circuits of the country that holds exactly the opposite. the d.c. circuit held multiple times the special counsel does have that right. we are headed for a situation in which either the 11th circuit interviews on the supreme court has to decide whether that report was written by people in a validly constituted office. >> lisa, can you recall a defendant in either federal or state level who, over a long period of time, in several different courts, whose team of lawyers over the course of months, if not years, have so successfully delayed, delayed, delayed a verdict? >> no. i think we have some viewers who will be upset with me for saying this, but the genius of the trump legal team is how

skillfully they've exploited existing federal rules and law to delay and use every form of process to which a litigant is entitled to get the results their client wanted. >> not surprising. joe. >> you know, lisa, i am a boring person, a nerd. mika will tell you. so, sometimes on weekends, i read supreme court rulings. and i did that this past weekend. i wanted to dig through -- again, you brought up immunity -- and i wanted to dig through the immunity ruling that the supreme court passed. i want to bring in claire here, also. lisa, i want to start with you. it seems to me there were some cursory readings of it. i want to make sure i understand this. more importantly, i want to make sure that our viewers understand it. i think even more importantly than that, i think people in the trump administration need to

understand what the supreme court said. more importantly for them, what they did not say. now, it seems to me that immunity was put into three baskets. basket number one, president of the united states as a former president has complete immunity for things, for actions that he took that he is constitutional empowered to take. that makes sense. then there was the middle basket. that middle basket said, for official acts, the supreme court says that a former president has a presumed immunity. presumed. and then the supreme court said, the roberts court said, that is presumed, but that's just a presumption that, of course, every criminal defendant has. we all know that there's always these presumptions. the court went through the way

that the government could overcome that presumption and find a former president actually guilty. and then the final was unofficial acts. they quoted the clinton case to say, there is no immunity for unofficial acts. in this basket, they seem to say to chutkan, you figure this out. but chances are good some of the things he said to pence are not going to have immunity. the speech on january 6th, most likely, he won't be immune from those acts. things that he did as a politician and not a president, things that he did as a party leader and not as a president, things that he did fighting election results, those are unofficial acts, and there is no immunity. do i have those three baskets right based on your reading of

that? and if i do, should that not serve as a warning for trump officials coming in who think because they read some headline somewhere, that the president was granted sweeping immunity, that, actually, the supreme court, what i found, was they left holes in there big enough to drive a mack truck through in the future. >> joe, first of all, i think you've described the buckets accurately. how that would have cut if judge chutkan had been able to render a decision on what fell in buckets is still up for debate. i want to distinguish between substantive immunity, like the buckets you described. when a former president is entitled to immunity depending on what kind of actions he took, and what i'll call timing or process community.immunity. the minute trump takes the oath on january 20th, 12:01, he is immune from any and all prosecutions for any and all acts, official or unofficial,

until he leaves office. so this question of what falls into which bucket, that will fall by the wayside once this man is once again sitting in the oval office behind the resolute desk. which falls in which bucket will be a question that can be parsed, again, in 2029, but not necessarily sooner. >> claire, that is also an important thing that is to note from this ruling. the supreme court didn't say, oh, he's immune from this, immune from that. what they said was, something we all know as attorneys, we're not fact-finders. the district courts are fact-finders. it's the d.c. circuit of appeals that ruled on the facts of the matter, whether the speech was immune or not. two questions for you. i guess we do have to wait until '29 to see how judge chutkan or

another judge would determine whether these were official or unofficial act. the second question is, i know the justice department doesn't go after donald trump or any other presidents when they're sitting. do state attorney generals continue to move forward on cases, or does the supreme court stop any of those actions for a sitting president, as well? >> well, the important thing to note is donald trump can't stop state actions. donald trump, once he is sworn in, can stop anything and everything he wants to stop at the department of justice. he is dparn guaranteed that by g in an attorney general that he sees as being loyal to him above all else. you know, the state cases ultimately -- and here's the thing, yes, there's judges that have to do fact-finding on the scope of presidential immunity at some date in the future if donald trump breaks the law. but, ultimately, the real

fact-finders are the juries. because juries have to decide whether or not the president's defense of immunity stands. >> so, you know, the first jury, the united states senate for removing a president for unlawful acts. the second jury would be a jury of his peers. that's why what merchan is doing is so important. he is saying to the country, we had a jury that was selected with the input of donald trump. donald trump had a hand in forming that jury. they unanimously, based on the facts that they heard, found him guilty. and it is important that that guilty verdict stands for all time. that he be a convicted felon based on respect the system should have for our jury trial system, which i might point out, joe, is embedded in our constitution.

so there's a lot of legal questions that are going to continue to bubble up, both civil and criminal, er the next four years. but a warning to people in trump's white house. do not think you are above the law. because even though the path is sticky, even though there are hurdles that have to be overcome by the government, there's nothing in that immunity decision by the supreme court that keeps a president free of consequences if he boldly breaks the law. >> mika, this is -- i'm so glad claire said that, because, mika, you and i have been talking about this decision for some time. i actually didn't tell people, but this was actually a brzezinski assignment. mika told me, "sit down. read through it. figure it out." for two reasons. one, to let democrats know that it may not have been as sweeping as was reported before, but more

importantly, to warn people that are coming into the trump administration, if you think you have sweeping ity and blind ity because of what was said on somebody's podcast, you'd better have your lawyer read that entire decision, because it does not grant sweeping immunity in any respect whatsoever. >> we'll see what happens. >> they need to be beware, yeah. >> claire mccaskill, thank you so much. msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, thank you, as well. a lot to cover for you. coming up, americans who were wrongfully detained overseas but are now freed and back at home are facing fines for not paying their taxes while they were imprisoned. msnbc's ali vitali, the host of "way too early," will join us to explain that and the effort to change the law. "morning joe" will be right back.

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as we begin the new year, families of americans wrongfully detained overseas continue in the struggle to secure the release of their loved ones. according to the foley foundation which tracks and advocates for u.s. hostages, there are currently 36 publically disclosed hostage and wrongful detention cases, mostly in asia and the middle east, and the challenges don't end when they finally come home. let's bring in the host of "way

too early" ali vitali. ali, you've been reporting on the financial burden faced by some american detainees after they have returned home. tell us about it. >> yeah, mika, you're right. imagine you're an american citizen who has, to the relief of your nation, just been released from being held by a foreign adversary. you come home after spending years in detention and as if the return to normal isn't a task enough, you find out you owe that you sanz to the irs because you didn't pay your taxes. that's the experience of one "washington post" reporter who is part of a legislative push to change those rules. jason rezaian spent more than 500 days detained in an iranian prison before his release in january of 2016. >> please welcome jason rezaian. >> reporter: a release celebrated by his colleagues two months later. >> there was a lot of fanfare, a

lot of goodwill support, but after a few months, i started getting some bills from the irs. >> reporter: because he had technically filed his taxes late, jason owed 22,000 in fines and penalties. >> how did that feel. >> there is a level of frustration to the entire experience, but there's also an absurdity to it, absurdity to the whole thing. >> reporter: the irs was sympathetic, but hamstrung. >> they really wanted to help, but they didn't have a mechanism to remove these penalties. >> reporter: so jason took his concerns to capitol hill and senator chris coons. >> he was miffed and appalled, but as a key member of the senate, he's also somebody with some influence. >> reporter: the right person to be appalled on your behalf. >> one of them, yeah. >> so that to me was like a thunder clap. i said this is something i can get done. >> reporter: for americans wrongfully detained by foreign

adversaries the tax penalties are one piece of a complex financial puzzle that includes retirement and social security contributions and even their cred scores. >> in my case my credit score, because i had a couple of bills set to auto pay -- >> reporter: who doesn't? >> exactly. suddenly there's not money in the account anymore, i don't have a physical address where those things are going to. my e-mail account is in the hands of the islamic republic rev rugs nary guard corps. my credit score was under 500. >> reporter: koonce is cosponsors other bipartisan bills that hope to solve those issues too. >> that you will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which you're about to enter so help you god. >> reporter: all of them now on the docket for this new congress, after the original irs related bill stalled out at the close of the year. >> the word jason used when i spoke with him was this ab

sturds. >> it is absurd. this is a simple fix to a problem that you can understand once you sit down and talk to the agency, but congress should fix this and fix it now. >> reporter: especially amid the growing urgency of more americans wrongfully detained by u.s. adversary, recently "wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich and wnba star brittney griner. >> a number of countries, authoritarian countries, are seizing americans and using them as leverage. one of our challenges is making sure we're connecting with their families. >> our hope -- you know we're a small community of people, several dozen, maybe a couple hundred americans who have been subjected to this kind of hostage taking -- our hope is that people after us don't have to deal with these sorts of hurdles when they get home, and i don't think that they need to. >> reporter: yeah. it's hard enough to come back. >> look, in the scope of things, it's not nearly as bad as what

we've been subjected to. and yet, we shouldn't have to deal with this. >> so this bill actually did pass the senate last year and unanimously, at that, but it failed to passes in the house before the end of the year, so that means it's back to the legislative drawing board. senator coons told me he's going to reintroduce this in this congress, and that it ultimately makes it to the president's desk. you heard from jason why that matters. this is not a bill that would be retroactive. this isn't a bill that's really about him, but ensuring future americans who are wrongfully detained have one less thing to worry about. >> the host of "way too early" thank you very much for your reporting on that. it is three minutes past the top of the hour. congress certified donald trump's 2024 election win some a smooth session on capitol hill yesterday marking a stark contrast to the scene that played out on the same day four

years ago. nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake has the details. >> reporter: in a joint session lasting just 40 minutes, congress counting state electoral votes. >> donald j. trump from the state of florida. >> reporter: certifying the sweeping election victory of president-elect donald trump who takes office as the 47th commander in chief. as president of the senate, vice president kamala harris overseeing the certification of her own defeat. >> donald j. trump of the state of florida has received 312 votes. kamala d. harris -- [ applause ] >> kamala d. harris of the state of california has received 226 votes. [ applause ] >> reporter: vice president elect j.d. vance sitting in the front row. we spoke to harris on the way into the ceremony. >> what should people take away from today? >> that democracy must be upheld. >> reporter: the only disruption a snowstorm blanketing the

capitol, a stark departure from the violence four years ago when a mob of trump supporters attacked the capitol delaying the count for hours. a deadly riot where many were also injured including capitol police sergeant. >> many of my colleagues were injured to the point of even losing eyes and these are the type of people that donald trump and his ally are trying to pardon. >> reporter: candidate trump regularly downplayed the violence and his role. >> that was a day of love. >> reporter: repeatedly suggested he might pardon some or all of the more than 1200 people who pleaded guilty to or were convicted of crimes involving january 6th. >> those people have suffered long and hard and there may be some exceptions to it. >> reporter: president biden who campaigned on a claim trump was a threat to democracy was asked last night if he still holds that view. >> i think what he did was a genuine threat to democracy. i'm hopeful that we're beyond that. >> all right.

so mike barnicle is still with us and joining the conversation we have the host of the podcast on brand with donny deutsch, is here, very tan and rested. msnbc political analyst publisher of the newsletter "the ink" available. chief white house correspondent for the new york times peter baker is with us as well. joe, definitely a difference between four years ago yesterday and where we were four years later on the certification. >> yesterday, actually the way it's gone for 240 years what separates america from the rest of the world is we believe in peaceful transitions and we don't roll tanks out when people become president. we usually have marching bands

from joliet to go down and celebrate that. so yes, yesterday was quite different, willie geist, from where we were four years from now. the question is -- and it has hung over this period since the election, what happens next? what happens on january 20th? mike talked about jerry baker's piece in the "wall street journal." let me just read a little bit of it. jerry baker says, i can't keep a resolution but maybe our leaders can. for donald trump he said, be a president, donald. you won. not only an election, you've revolutionized politics here and much of the world. you won't be seriously constrained this time by trying -- by people trying to undermine you or put you in prison. no one expects you to sound like the dalai lama at the end of your eighth decade, but be a president for all americans.

many of those who didn't support you, wish you well this time. you will get most of your ways on policy in any case, but you have a chance to bring the nation along with you and be a genuinely transformative figure in the 21st century. if you allow the nation to come along with you. and the question is, what does january 20th and beyond look like, willie? >> yeah. and i think to a lot of people that piece from jerry baker and the hopes of others will sound like the, perhaps, naive hopes of 2017 when donald trump came in, perhaps humbled for a moment by the presidency and we saw what happened from there. i think we don't have to wonder how he'll behave. he has a long record as president, a record in the four years since, a record during the campaign, of how he's behaved. a record in the way he has chosen these appointments for cabinet positions, the kind of people he's putting around him. we can hope for the best, but i think we've sort of seen where

donald trump wants to go with this. you've got a piece, as we talk about january 6th, titled "january 6th was a revolt against the future" talking about four years ago. the future, you say, will prevail. yesterday we saw the moment, kamala harris, who lost a devastating presidential election to donald trump, stood there, performed her duty as president of the senate, vice president of the united states, and, you know, in a session that took just over 30 minutes, totally unremarkable as it should be, but was not four years ago. talk a little bit about your piece and the contrast you saw. >> i mean, first of all just the ceremony, those images western seeing, this is actually the kind of stuff the founding fathers had in mind and designed, rights. they intended people to have these arguments and then to also be able to do this. they intended situations like a sitting vice president, who is the president of the senate, certifying the victory of someone who defeated her

personally. they believed that actually people being able to have the feelings they have when they contest elections and then, with sobriety, do that, that that actually ennobled people and built a different kind of society that wasn't about kings building palaces for themselves and, you know, having people executed, you know, in chess games or whatever. so it was a profound thing, partly because of four years ago and a profound thing because like that is the best of who we are, not just that we hand over power peacefully, but that the person who lost can love the law, can love the rules, can love the game more than they love themselves at some level. >> at the same time, it's a little bit of a bubble that i think people are operating in mentally and intellectually between now and the transition. we can wait and see what happens, but i think we have a lot of information in front of

us, and in a way, donnie, it -- you already have donald trump posting about biden getting in the way of the transition, which is in a way quite laughable given what happened four years ago. >> yeah. look, january 21st is going to tell us a lot. >> yeah. >> back to willie's point, are we being naive in saying this time he doesn't have liss punching gloves on. everything is going in his direction. you can hope, we can hope, that we might see a different version of it. maybe that's just hopeful, maybe that's just naive. the facts present otherwise, but all i can do at this point -- you know, it's still six weeks, eight weeks later, is let's hope for the best. that's what we can do. >> eight weeks. >> so peter baker, eight weeks?

donnie, you need to check your calendar. >> since the election. >> eight weeks since the election? >> oh. >> okay. >> i was going to say, your january 20th and our january 20th is different. >> so peter baker, i basically read your entire piece in the 6:00 hour. i won't repeat it. i will say, though, i'm saying this the same reason i talked about the -- i talked about the immunity case because there's this sort of -- not sort of, there just is this massive sense of overconfidence by a lot of republicans and a lot of people around donald trump about the landslide victory that was a 1.5% victory about an immunity case that actually the supreme court had holes in that presidential immunity that future supreme courts can drive mac trucks through and also about how horrible -- you know, i read jerry baker's piece and the part where he was talking

about donald trump needing to work for all americans, but there's another part of the piece where he talked about joe biden's terrible legacy and it's -- i know jerry and respect him, but it's laughable that there are people out there that actually -- i don't know. i guess -- i don't know. it's alternative realty that they live in. i mean, as you write here, "for the first time since george w. bush's transition 24 years ago, america is at peace overseas on inauguration day. murders are way down. illegal immigration at the southern border, lower than it was even when donald trump was in office. stock market is at record high and finished their best two years in 25 years. jobs, way up.

wages rising. the economy, growing fast. unemployment is as low as it was before covid-19. and near its historic best. drill, baby, drill, we already are. domestic energy production, higher than it has ever been. the manufacturing sector has more jobs today than at any time since the turn of the century. drug overdoses continue to drop. crime, peter, is at a 50-year low. violent crime is at a 50-year low. and the economy, if you talk to people all across the world, if you talk to bankers, if you talk to investors, if you talk to business people across the world, in europe, as i've done over the past month, as you --

i'm sure you do all the time in your reporting, they will tell you, america is the envy of the world. america's economy stands apart. there's not a close second. you talk to military leaders across the world, they will tell you america's military is stronger than any military. there's not a close second. the close -- the closest second place country in terms of military power right now is getting hammered by ukraine. so, again, i understand people have their feelings, people have their emotions, but the facts you laid out, well, they're actually just the facts of where america stands, and i do wonder how do republicans look, compared to that four years from now, eight years from now? >> yeah. look, it's a great question. i mean, look, our mutual friend john would be able to tell us

which president inherited a better situation, but it's hard to think of one. if i look back at what ronald reagan inherited, what bill clinton inherited, what even george w. bush inherited and certainly barack obama with the financial crisis, any of them would have really killed for an economy that's doing as well as this one is and for a situation in the world that is, you know, advantageous to the one we have now. that doesn't mean there aren't problems and not everybody is always feeling it. the bigger question why is there a disconnect between those numbers and the way americans feel. americans are sour about the way the country is going right now. for all those numbers you just read, it doesn't seem to permeate, at least a certain part of the population, the polls showed only 19% of americans think that the country is on the right track right now. that's not just trump's supporters. that includes a lot of biden and harris supporters as well. there's a sourness in the country in the sense that they

don't feel, you know -- >> feel. >> -- benefits in their life or see it or they live in a media atmosphere which maybe amplifies donald trump's message. >> yeah. and mike barnicle, that's the thing, again, for a campaign that ran in 2020 saying ef your feelings, i mean they printed flags and said ef your feelings, vote donald trump, it's a bit all about feelings. yeah, we lost the election, but you know what, just give him time. he -- you need to give him some space, get his feelings in line. you look at what's happens now, you talk about all of these numbers. yeah, but people just -- they -- okay. the economy is the envy of the world. okay, we're drilling more oil than ever before. okay, the united states stock market is higher than ever before. okay. people's retirement accounts are higher than they've ever been.

this goes to even those rich guys driving their massarottis to the country club with their don't tread on me license plates. while they're golfing they're making millions on the stock market passively while people are working around the rest of the world. don't tread on me, their feelings. it just doesn't feel right. what are we a nation of feelings now, where the facts don't matter and it's feelings because something you saw on twitter -- i mean that is, again, that's the madness of it all, you have all of these numbers but people are not feeling right. i'm not talking about middle-class and working-class workers struggling with their grocery bills. i'm talking about everybody. i' talking about the people that are richer today than ever before. tech bros who are billionaires many times over, talking about

the socialist joe biden because he hurt their feelings somehow. >> you know, joe, there's so much that you packed into that -- those observations that you just made. i have no answer for it, but the country is in sort of a mood, has been for some time. i think there's a lot that went into it and historically over the past decade, two decades, whatever. i think covid had a lot to do with it. i think kids being out of school for nearly a year and lack of socialization on their part has something to do with it. the cost of groceries has something to do with it. but at the end of the day, peter baker, i want to ask you this question, do you think -- two things. two-part question, do you think donald trump has successfully exhausted both the american public and the american media? and, two, do you think the american media's coverage of joe biden over the past two years

has also added to this sense of malaise in this country? by media coverage, i mean no matter what legislation was passed in the first two years of his -- of his administration, does the disaster of the afghanistan withdraw, if everyone understand that, the loss of 13 american marines there, everyone understand that, but nearly every piece since then tellthamerican readers and viewers how old joe biden is when everybody knows how old he is and raises the question about his mental acuity when no one of any reputation, i think, has gone on record and said, yeah, here's why we worry about his mental acuity because he forget ralph's name the other day, something like that. do you think that package has anything to do with the mood of the country today? >> well, i mean to your first

question, yes, i think everybody is exhausted and that's why a lot of people are kind of tuning out or checking out of politics for a moment. it's a break. my guess is everybody comes back because a lot of important things are at stake and once president-elect trump takes office people will want to know what's going on and support or oppose it as they feel. on the second question, you know, i get it, i understand that, i hear that from my, you know -- from some of our readers and some of our critics. i think that we're in a different atmosphere, different media ecosphere. it's a choose your news moment where the numbers we put in a story, we published all of them before the election. people say how come you didn't do it before the election? we did. all those facts were known to readers, but you're right, that biden's age was an issue. and you hear a lot of democrats say that's a lost opportunity, is the media's fault -- i'm sure a lot of people think so -- but maybe biden has responsibility knowing that he was not able to

command the stage, even if he's able to make rationale and good decisions, as his aides insist he still is regardless of his age, clearly there was an issue in terms of his ability to present to the public and be commanding on stage. we saw that very vividly in june of this year and the fact that he chose to stay in the race or run again even though he would be 86 at the end of a second term, throws a democratic party in the behind him and wish he would have stepped aside earlier so they could have developed a new generation of leadership. media sure, absolutely. perhaps the president has some responsibility there as well. >> chief white house correspondent for the "new york times" peter baker, peter's piece is up now. thanks so much as always. want to go back to you and move this forward and look to january 21st of this year. your latest piece is titled "how to live under trump 2." how are you counseling people as they sort of re-engage now with

the reality that donald trump will be back in the white house? >> you know, like all of you, i talk to people for a living and oefrtsds over the holidays i talked to people for free and reflecting on this piece the last couple months, kind of talking to people about, you know, who almost universally are dreading a new trump term, how they plan to live, right. like, there was, as we all know, we talk about it in the piece, this resistance posture that was the dominant posture for a lot of people institutionally and personally under the first trump term. it was resistance. that was a certain way of life. you followed every lil thing, had to know every little thing that was happening. it was important for the republic for each person to put out a statement about each thing. it's an exhausting, depleting, also important way of life and vigilance is certainly crucial

to liberty, but it was something i found in my conversations recently, no one seems interested in doing again. interestingly. people are more worried, more concerned about the lack of guardrails, but i don't hear anybody signing up for resistance to under trump 2, and so i wrote about some of the other postures that i hear people contemplating for themselves. i think one of them i hear people talk about retreat. it's not military retreat, but retreat into the things you can control. you can make your family good. you can make your community good. you can -- i hear a lot of people talking about artists and others retreat into doing your actual work. not spending all day on twitter reacting to him, but making art, for example, that shows the country to itself in ways that help lead to a better country down the road, but working at the root instead of just like reacting to each symptom. i hear a lot of people talk about returning to the local. i'm going to community meetings. instead of being obsessed with national politics and focusing on the senate and house, i'm

going to focus on my school board, the fight over books in my library. i think the local will be a big thing for people. i hear a lot of people talking about actually needing to not just focus on being anti-trump, but building a pro-democracy movement that has sailence and relevance to most people in this country. the reality right now is we have a pro-democracy movement that is out of touch with america and that is a giant problem if you're trying to defend democracy. >> right. >> the last thing i would say is a posture of rethinking. i think trump, we've all probably been guilty of this, trump inspires in his opposition a smug certitude. he is so wronged that we are right. he is so cruel, that we are good. that to be not him, is to be automatically virtuous. and this kind of thing actually corrodes the soul. it corrodes your thinking. i think it made the democracy,

pro-democracy movement, not see a lot. it made it blind to a lot of how regular people in the country were reacting to a movement that was different from maybe how the movement thought it was doing. and so i see a lot of people also brave enough to say, look, let's question certain things about ourselves. let's have a posture of curiosity, rather than certainty in this era, and look, it's going to take a tremendous amount of fortitude, resistance, lawsuits, opposition when things deserve to be opposed. but what i see is a lot of people spreading back out into many lanes, not just the one lane of #resistance, and doing many different kinds of work, not just to oppose trump, but to kind of get the country we deserve. >> get it back. so interesting. joe, it's all about finding a new way forward. >> yeah. you know, it's interesting we saw that, didn't we, on stage at the golden globes, where you had artists that were talking about their art and, of course, there

was the debate, there were, you know, whether it was variety or "the new york times" or the "hollywood reporter" oh, what are they doing eight years ago? they were all protesting against donald trump. what are they doing? and the response from -- from one person was, well, we saw what happened during the campaign and we saw all the celebrities going out, the most powerful, strongest celebrities going out opposing him, and we saw that that created a blowback and so a lot of us are just thinking, let's do something radical. let's focus on our art and it's interesting how, again, i think people are -- i mean, your article is brilliant and i think a lot of people are sort of sorting through just what you said. what is the best way forward? i will say, you talked about rebuilding democracy. i think one of the most insightful things that i've read

was an incite from a journalist who it's more important that we now focus on rebuilding the foundations of liberal democracy, of western democracy, than it is to reflexively fight against the right wing populism that only grew out of the failures of western democracy, of liberal democracy, and he went on to say the two are not mutually exclusive. you can do two things at once, but perhaps we've been focusing more on -- on the fighting against the right wing populism and trumpism than actually fighting and working to build the pillars, the foundations, of liberal democracy again. because right wing populism, not just in america, but across the

globe, it's only growing because of the perceived failures of liberal democracy, so that's our focus. we have to work and rebuild liberal democracy, western democracy, not just for the next election in two years, but for the next generation and our children's generation after that. >> it's -- that's exactly right, and it's root work, not branch work. you know, there's a famous thing called the will and grace effect, which is that that television show running for a long time has been shown by political scientists who have really moved a lot of americans on the rights of lbgt folks. people may not have realized that was happening, but if you look back over many years, it had a big effect. i don't think going back to the golden globes, i don't know that it would have been more useful for the creators of "will and grace" to stand there and say a chant, like i -- i'm very glad they made their show, right, and i think a lot of people are --

it's not about capitulation. i think it is about saying, we need to do root work, not branch work, and actually do the kinds of things that make society healthier. when it comes to journalism, you're absolutely right also. we have -- it's not just about, you know, opposing trump or investigating trump. we have lost the trust as an entire complex of media, of the public. the level of trust in us, the same way in congress, the same way in so many institutions, at a unsustainable level. people do not believe, virtually anybody in any kind of institutional authority in american life today. donald trump exists in the context of that problem, but he's not the sum total of that problem. and so yes, you, me, everybody listening to this in different forms has work to do beyond him, and the -- and the lure and the excitement and the reaction

possibilities that he engenders distracts us from that work. we have work to do to rebuild trust, to make americans visible to each other again, to soothe people's concerns about social change and on and on. >> we need to continue this conversation. thank you very much. great piece. and thanks for coming on this morning. >> thank you. still ahead on "morning joe," there have been mixed feelings about new york city's new congestion pricing that has gone into effect for drivers. the head of the mta joins us next to discuss the controversial tolling program. "morning joe" is coming right back. "morning joe" is coming right back (♪♪) hey what if we move back... hold on let me think. we need a miracle. miracle starting every thursday starting at 2:45 i love you. i know. find childcare that fits your schedule. learn more at care.com

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are we ready, five, four, three, two, one. >> that was metropolitan transportation authority and chairman ceo janno lieber unveiling the new signage in manhattan notifying drivers of new york city's new congestion price plan that is now in effect and janno joins us now. how did it go the first day? first of all, there are those who are complaining about this, very concerned about this, calling it a scam. we'll get to that. you're not the guy to blame per se, but you're here to talk. >> let's blame him.

>> it's on you. >> to the rescue. >> this was a collective decision. >> yeah. >> having said that, how did the first day go. >> did you see a difference? >> it's too early to draw any long-term conclusion, but yesterday was a light day. everybody was noticing the traffic was light. it was also the day after the holiday season, and there was snow forecast, so we're not drawing any premature conclusions. the bigger picture is, you know, new york has a problem. it's called congestion. it's, you know, it's killing our economy. the business community is in support of this because spending so much time in traffic for trucks and plumbers and service professionals, is literally killing our economy, billions a year, and, you know, ambulances can't get to hospitals and, you know, as a society, we decided to do something about it. that's what congestion price is meant to do. >> so how do you explain this to someone -- i agree with you having lived in new york for 20 years, the car is the last

resort, it's the worst way to get around new york city. get on the subway, walk if you can. there are people who don't have that luxury commuting in from new jersey for work or something like that. they say, i'm already paying 16 bucks at the tunnel or the bridge. >> right. >> -- >> right. >> -- now you're going to hit me with this again. what do you say? >> your time is worth a lot. if we can make traffic better, that you spend less time in traffic, that's better for you and has real value. we've seen it again and again in the coverage just yesterday, people coming off the bridges and tunnels saying, hey, if traffic is always this good, this is worth it. we'll have to see whether we're as successful as we want to be. the other thing i would say, this is historic. we're the first city in the country to deal with this. i'm getting calls from people all over the country there's gridlock in all kinds of american cities. we have the great mass transit system that 90% of our commuters take. we have an option and using the -- the proceeds from this to

invest in even better mass transit makes perfect sense. that's why we're doing it. >> so to that point that you just raised, what do you say to people who you have indicated a lot of this money, nine dollars a whack, whatever it is back and forth, all the money you raise from this, you claim that it's going to go to improve the transportation system, basically the subway system in new york city, all of its boroughs. people say what improvements? when are they going to incur? what do these improvements cost? >> listen we have a system -- remember, we have 75,000 employees. we carry between 6 and 7 million people a day. you know, we have on the subways 4.5 million people. more than the population of the city of los angeles. it costs a lot to run it. but the investments that are being made in new train [ inaudible ] these and making all of the whole old subway

system truly ada accessible, parents with strollers can use it, so people with disabilities, just older people who have difficulty getting up and down stairs can use it, those are investments that are under way and we're able to accelerate them even more with congestion price proceeds. >> so republican congressman mike waller of new york had some pretty harsh words for the congestion price and especially your leadership on it. he was on "morning joe" yesterday. so we want to play a little bit of what he had to say. >> goody. >> so you can -- >> goody. >> --so you can so you can res. here it is. >> well, first, new york got $100 billion from the bipartisan infrastructure bill, and the state, frankly, has done a horrible job of releasing those funds for infrastructure improvements not just in new york city but across the state. secondly, the mta, the worst run authority in america and as i

fundamentally believe needs an enema, the fact is the mta loses $700 million a year from people who refuse to pay to ride the subway. they jump the turnstyle and they refuse to pay. there's a lot that new york can do in a $239 billion budget, up $61 billion over four years, to actually prioritize the mta in addition, the mta needs a full audit and the mta needs to have a complete overhaul starting with removal of all of its management. janno lieber needs to go. the fact that this guy was celebrating the start of congestion price on top of a cherry-picker the other day, as if, you know, for some bizarre reason he thought as an unelected bureaucrat that he should be celebrating fleecing hardworking new yorkers of their money, it's bizarre.

>> all right. a lot there. your response? he also called the congestion price a scam on new yorkers. >> listen, this is -- this is grievance politics, not substance politics. i would say, you know, 80% of hauler's constituents actually ride mass transit to get -- 1% of his constituents actually commute to the central business district and pay the toll. this is a great grievance politics issue, but if he were interested in substance -- i went to that guy and said, can you help us? you're in the majority, sir, can you help us get more money out of congress? all his words about new york gets is 45% of the mass transit riders in the united states, we get 17% of the federal money. i said, congressman, you're in the majority can you help us? never heard from him again. historically this -- and this table reflects it. historically centrists in new york went to work in washington,

democrat or republican, and fought for mass transit to get -- to improve that payback for the new york gets shorted on. al d'amato, head of the committee that oversaw the senate committee that oversaw money for ass transit and fought for the mta. the guys that went to washington in the majority the last time around actually have done nothing. that is like joe -- it was a congressman from florida, like a congressman from florida not doing anything to get hurricane relief or a congressman from iowa not doing anything for corn. okay. that's what we got from the guy you just showed all that stuff about. now on the mta, we, as part of the budget that governor hochul, who actually has been helpful to the mta, set up a couple years ago to make sure after covid when the rest of the country's mass transit systems were going down the tubes an cutting service, she solved the problem. as above that solution we found

$500 million of savings without cutting service and without firing anybody. okay. so this is an agency that actually is 3% lower budget than it was precovid. you know, very few other government agencies can show that record of getting more efficient and we're getting projects done, hundreds of millions of dollars under budget. that guy is selling an outdated cartoon. everybody loves to talk about the mta and -- because it's a very personal experience in new york, but that guy is selling an outdated cartoon. i wish we had the old new york gop that went to washington and worked for new yorkers who they actually represent. >> to congressman's point, it's not just his point. the mta has an operating budget of 19 -- >> $20 billion. >> the organization has a budget of $20 billion already should have been able to take care of the subways. they shouldn't look the way they look. most of the subway stations

shouldn't operate the way they operate. the trains, you shouldn't have to slap a $9 tax on a commuter to pour more money into a system that doesn't appear to be working for new yorkers. >> yeah. i respectfully disagree. i think that, you know, we -- i grew up in new york. i grew up not far from where we are right now. i grew up in new york where the subways broke down every 5,000 miles and now they break down every 200,000 miles. we have made enormous strides in terms of the reliability and the operation of the system. we grew ridership hugely. we are -- we have actually grown the system. we put in a new subway. a subway promised to people in the neighborhood 70 years ago. nobody ever got to it. we've got all brand new cars. we have a long way to go and it needs to feel safer. part of what is, you know, everybody's experiencing new york is this loss of the sense of safety in the public space that we must address post-covid. it, obviously, is impacting on

people's psychology. it's not fair to say the subway -- the subway has gotten dramatically better than when i was a kid when you didn't take a chance to change because you didn't know if another train was coming. this is a much better system than we've had in a long time, and i'm proud we continue to make it better. >> as a brand new guy a year from now, what's a win? how are you going to go forward and say, guess what, nine bucks did hurt but here's the win? >> that's a really good point, donnie. i want people to recognize that, you know, we've made progress on traffic because that is about personal experience. it's about the economy. what we're trying to do is make the traffic better, even for the people who have to drive. it's not only to invest in folks who are using mass transit. we really do want to see that. we want to see the indicators of success with respect to the economy, that, you know, that trucks and the service professionals are spending less time stuck in traffic. we want to see cleaner air.

we want to see less road rage. people walking their kids to school around the lincoln tunnel are scared. >> and -- >> there's so much road rage. you have to calm the traffic. you have to have better flowing traffic. and we have to make the investments in mass transit. i think that's what's going to make people feel that this was in the end a good investment. like many things, you just -- it's hard to do good policy sometimes when surrounded by free vance politics. we're going to get through it. >> on the front page about crime in the subways, felonies are down, but assaults are up, murders are up since 2019, which is a good measuring stick, precovid, and you said, because of these truly horrific incidents that we continue to see especially if the last couple weeks, that you say, those incidents, quote, are all in our heads, that gets into people's heads. would you like to clarify? >> my point and what folks, of

course, at that newspaper omit is, i said that the psychology is important because people have to feel safe in the public space. at our density, twice boston and chicago, nine times phoenix or houston, we have to be able to feel comfortable in the public space because we're all together. the subway is like our public square. we're experiencing government. we're experiencing each other every day. you got to feel safe. i am pushing for the criminal justice system to do more to keep the small number of people who tend to be recidivists out of the public space. whether it's the mental health system or putting them indoors otherwise, i don't think the people who keep breaking the rules in the public space and making people feel unsafe, ought to be at large. that's why i've become, you know, an advocate for a little pushback on the criminal justice system. we can't just let people come in and out. >> all right. chairman and ceo of the new york

city metropolitan -- >> and brave man. >> -- transportation authority janno lieber, thank you so much for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. and coming up on "morning joe" -- ♪♪ >> mrs. o'connor. >> do i know you? >> benjamin gottlieb. you were my music teacher. >> so interesting because i'm an awarist. >> that is part of the trailer if the film "between the temple" staring academy award nominee carole cane. she joins us straight ahead to discuss the role that's garnering some oscar buzz. "morning joe" will be right back. uzz. "morning joe" will be right back why choose a sleep number smart bed? i need help with her snoring. sleep number does that.

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so they don't make sense. >> i do not twist my words around. >> rudy, i wouldn't make up a thing like that. >> i do not do that. >> once in a while. once in a great while. >> are you trying to give me --

>> may i come in? >> yeah. i don't think i understand any of this, but come in. i suppose you want to have someone to talk to, right? >> talk is cheap. i want your body. >> ever since, his confidence is shattered. >> you promised me you would never say that name. >> what? >> i'm not listening. >> that's what parenting is all about, you give and you give and you end up cold, hungry, and handcuffed to a bulldozer. >> i work down at a temple. >> oh. >> i'm a cantor. >> you're a cantor. so interesting. i'm an aquarius. >> i'm a cantor. >> cantor. >> i sing at the services. >> oh. >> cantor. >> that is a really good gig.

>> wow. that is a great look. >> oh, my gosh. >> at the incredible extraordinary career of emmy award winning, academy nominated carol kane. the last clip a scene from her new film "between the temples" playing alongside jason schwartzman. "the new york times" put her on a short list of oscar nominees in the categories of best supporting actress as carla, a 70-year-old student who sparks an unexpected connection with a grieving cantor at her local synagogue. >> i love everything about this. >> good morning. it is good to see you. >> good morning. i'm so excited. my mother, we watch every morning. >> thank you. >> i'm like a big fan here. >> and you're going to nominate your mom for the 50 over 50. >> i am. joy kane. composer. >> you are hilarious watching that clip. i'm not dying or anything, am i? >> your life is flashing before -- i haven't seen the

world's greatest with gene wilder in a million years. that's exciting. >> what do you think when you see that back and look at your career in that way and see all that you've accomplished? >> the first word that comes into my mind is lucky, you know, that i've been so lucky to work with so many great people and great scripts and directors and just -- >> we, obviously, want to talk about "between the temples" but it's a perfect segue to a question i ask all of the women who are honored on the 50 over 50 list or who are over 50 in their careers -- >> how dare you. >> when you worked in your 20s -- i'm thinking with your mother you might have a different answer than most people -- did you imagine your career after 50 or was it just sort of wide space? >> you know, i knew i had to work for my sanity and for my heart. i was just reading al pacino's book -- which you have his picture there -- and he talks about that, that, you know, somebody asked him, you know, why did you succeed even though

i wanted so badly to succeed, and al said, i didn't want to succeed, i needed to succeed. so i never thought of it in terms of fame, you know, when i was young. i just thought of it in terms of just really desperately wanting to do good work, so i never saw a time frame. i just wanted to be great. that's all. >> okay. >> and your fans truly span generations. my kids fell in love with kimmy schmidt during the pandemic. they're teenagers now and they love you. >> thank you. >> a lot of people talking about this film and particularly your role in it "between the temples." we should point out ba mitt va usually takes place at 12 or 13. in this case yours takes place at 70. for people who haven't seen the film, explain the background. >> my character is carla and i've always wanted to be ba mitt va since i was a young girl but

my parents -- i read diaper babies and wouldn't allow it. i got married young and my husband wouldn't allow it. he recently died when the film starts. i decide i have to go for it. i get assigned this extremely depressed young cantor, jason schwartzman played. i love jason so much. he's so brilliant. he's the one to teach me my portion. it was a fascinating journey. no script to speak of to begin with. just a lot of improvising around a script it was called -- >> there was no script? >> almost like a chapter book, like 38 pages or something. and the night before we would get some pages for the scene the next day, and then we would start by what was on the page and then the director, nathan silver, he would say, no, that's not it. that's not it at all. we would break the whole thing

over -- is that how it goes. >> that's how it goes. >> maybe i could be a newscaster in that case. >> absolutely. >> so in -- talk to us about how audiences are responding to this. what do you want them to take away from the film? >> i think it's a love story in a way that cannot be defined. it's a story of going for your dreams, regardless of your age, and i based a lot of my character on my mother who moved to paris when she was 55 and started a whole new life and became a master teacher. so it's -- it's a story of hope at any age with anyone and that love is love, you know. it doesn't have to fit into a box. >> i love it. >> thank you. >> you talk about wanting to play a three dimensional woman,

a woman who shows all her sides. >> yeah. >> the point i think you said this, when you get to certain age you're mostly asked to play a grandmother, not the heart of the story. you're peripheral in a lot of ways. >> yeah. >> but in this case it's a love story and you're the central -- >> i know. i was so lucky to get -- i guess you would call it the meat of this thing. >> yeah. >> it's so unusual for someone of my age. you know, not that i'm -- i've played some fantastic grandmas, you know, but this is different because she's just a woman, you know, who happens to have hit 70. >> i love it. the movie "between the temples" is streaming now on netflix. emmy award winning and academy award nominated actor carol kane. thank you so much for coming on the show. >> thank you. >> say hello to your mom. >> we are such big fans. >> oh, good. >> i would say we're addicts. >> i like that even better. >> we'll take it. coming up, billionaire elon musk played a major role in

helping get donald trump re-elected here in the united states and now he's facing criticism for getting involved in european politics. we'll get a live report ahead on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. econds [coughing] hi susan, honey? yea. i respect that, but that cough looks pretty bad. try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love, plus the powerful cough relief you need. mind if i root through your trash? robitussin, with real honey & elderberry. (♪♪) hey what if we move back... hold on let me think. we need a miracle. miracle starting every thursday starting at 2:45 i love you. i know. find childcare that fits your schedule. learn more at care.com

>> today, i did what i've done my entire career which is take seriously the oath that i have taken many times to support and

defend the constitution of the united states which included today, performing my constitutional duties to ensure that the people of america, the voters of america will have their votes counted, and those votes matter and they will determine the outcome of an election. i do believe very strongly that america's democracy is only as strong as our willingness to fight for it, every single person, to fight for and respect the importance of our democracy, otherwise it is very fragile and it will not be able to withstand moments of crisis and today america's democracy stood. >> vice president harris after the certification of the 2024 election results, pointing out the stark contrast between yesterday and what took place four years ago yesterday.

when a mob of trump supporters stormed the capital in an effort to block what is usually a mundane certification process, good morning and welcome to morning joe, it is tuesday, january 7th, with us we have the co-host of our fourth hour, msnbc contributor, mike and editor of the washington post, eugene robinson and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator, claire mccaskill, joe, all eyes were on the capital yesterday, especially given what happened four years ago and given the division in our country that still exists about whether or not that was a massive moment in history, never to happen again. >> you see the numbers that came out yesterday about republicans, how they felt in january of 21 and how they feel

now and obviously, republicans were less concerned about it today than they were immediately after it happened, the numbers jumped in the gallup poll, to 30%, of those republicans said it was okay. you know, i've been talking about this a good bit and it supported that -- it is important that we keep talking about it, we keep talking about the perspective of keeping everything in proper perspective as far as what the election was and i will say, what the biden/harris presidency was, i read this past weekend, it's pretty remarkable and it's something that biden and harris, they are not feeling it now but historians certainly will note this, only because it's the facts and i know that the facts

don't matter to a lot of people, their feelings matter more which of course is ironic and i remember saying in 2020, all these flags that said f your feelings, 2020. they didn't care about the facts, it was there feeling that stop them from saying of course joe biden won, it didn't feel like he could have won and it's the same thing with this election, things are terrible, things are horrible in america, biden has been a failure, let me just briefly read a little bit from what peter baker said and he got me some facts, i hope they don't offend you all that are watching, that want to keep leaving how horrible things have been under biden and harris. for the first time really since george w. bush is inaugurated,

no american troops were at war overseas on inauguration day. murders are way down, illegal immigration, falling below where it was when donald trump left office, stock markets are roaring and finished at their best two years in a quarter century and are at record highs. jobs are up, wages are rising, the economy is growing as quickly as it did during trump's presidency. unemployment is as low as it was before the pandemic. domestic energy production, higher than it has ever been and really, did you know the manufacturing sector has more jobs right now than any time than it has in 25 years, so the manufacturing sector is up.

drug overdose debts down, and of course as an economist says, who has to look at economies across the world and rate them, and this is not even debatable. america's economy is the envy of the world and even inflation is down, where there some economic headwinds because of inflation over the last three years, yeah, but i just say all this to say that history is going to have a clear record on the biden presidency and when we move beyond the sound and fury signifying nothing on social media about how horrible joe biden is, how horrible joe

biden's presidency has been, data, the facts, i think they might matter to historians, the facts are going to show that donald trump is inheriting a pretty strong economy and a country that is going in the right direction socially, whether you are talking about jobs, whether you are talking about illegal immigration, whether you're talking about drug overdose debts going down, i can go on and on, but things are pretty strong right now and make no doubt, republicans will be measured two years from now and four years from now against where america is at this point. >> if you want to talk a legacy, go back to where we were four years ago in the grips of the pandemic that the

biden administration helped to lead us out of with the operation warp speed with the vaccine under donald trump as well, and now republicans did washington, it is theirs, they have inherited this donald trump in the white house, they've got the house, the senate, and now they have to deliver on all the things they said they were going to deliver on. all the things they promised during this campaign and they will have to do it many times with a very slim margin in the house of representatives. right now, mike johnson, the speaker has a four vote margin that is going down to two, so they are not going to come in with the mandate they think they have and just write checks and do whatever they want, however they want. and again, this is not a country that is in the grips of american carnage right now, this is the country that peter baker lays out and also, it has to be said that unemployment, jobs are good, there are things from the biden administration that were too little, too late.

when we talk about the military, no troops on the ground, the afghanistan withdrawal was a disaster, the border was not under control until recently, it is now so there are reasons that joe biden is not re-elected, inflation is still too high and was during the last couple of years but he does lead the country, and leave the country in good shape for the next president. >> again, i'm not talking about where we are today, what people are thinking today because it has been cast, i'm just saying, we all know how history goes, four years from now, eight years from now, 20 years from now when people are looking back at this administration. they are going to say, what happened in that election, you had jobs at near record lows, you had america's economy outpacing the rest of the

world? you had crime at 50 year lows, violent crime at 50 year lows. don't get mad at me for saying that, get mad at the facts. if you don't like the facts, i can't help you, the crime is at 50 year lows, murders are way down, drug overdose deaths going down precipitously, i can go on and my biggest point is, republicans, they need to be careful when they take control, they need to be careful because right now, they have an economy that is the envy of the world and when you are sitting with a lead like that, you don't want

to move too fast, you don't want to take radical chance, and i will just tell you as a conservative, and i hope there's still conservatives in the house of representatives. as a conservative, i'm very concerned about the fact that we have a $36 trillion debt, and republicans are talking about blowing the hole wide open, that would cause inflation to spike the numbers that we haven't seen since interest rates went up to 21%, because at some point, that debt bomb is going off and at some point, the world is going to say, wait a second, you are going to add 10 trillion more dollars to the debt? those are the sort of things that are going to cause this economy to move from being the

strongest in the world, to possibly struggling like the rest of the world, so i just hope that republicans take care with what they are inheriting, and they are never going to say joe biden has done a good job with the economy but they know the numbers, they see the numbers, they know where wall street is, they know what happens if they screw this up and suddenly everybody's stocks started plummeting, the 401(k)s go through the floor, they need to be careful because as peter baker reports in the new york times, this weekend, right now, the election is behind us, they won but they've got a set of facts that actually is going to be incumbent on them to make sure they don't screw it up. >> well, you are right about everything and peter baker is right about everything he put in the paper, fax do matter.

and the other thing that matters is the biden presidency initiated in the past and sponsored and strengthened two enormous acts of legislation comparable to lyndon johnson's 1964 congress progress that we made legislatively in the country. but something has happened in the culture over the years and america now is uniquely a nation of the moment. the fact that the republican party is being handed the strongest economy in the world which it is, matters less than what happens in aisle three to the cost of eggs, in the moment, people can turn on a candidate that they voted for in 2020 and change their minds because of the gas prices, because of the cost of eggs, everybody gets that, that has been politics for 100 years. no doubt about it. but joe biden can stand on his legislative record, the republicans have that record

now, they are standing on it in terms of the economy, as we pointed out several times already today, the strongest economy in the world, if it slips it is on them. gerald baker in the wall street journal had a pretty good piece today which he has to do with all of this, his advice, his new year's resolutions for different political people and for himself, that he suggested donald trump take, to be a president for all american people. not just your friends, don't go after your enemies, be a president for all the american people, that is maybe the biggest question of all that we are going to face. >> coming up, donald trump is set to be sentenced in criminal court 10 days ahead of his presidential inauguration, lisa rubin breaks down what we might hear from inside the courtroom, when morning joe comes right back. right back

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>> as the election certification was taking place yesterday, president-elect trump accused president biden of hurting the transition of power, trump wrote on social media, biden is doing everything possible to make the transition as difficult as possible, from welfare such as has never been seen before, too

costly and ridiculous executive orders on the green new scam and other money wasting hoaxes, shortly before writing that, trump posted a photo of the crowd at the ellipse four years ago, right before they would storm the capital. talk about hurting the transition. that picture is quite something. >> and of course we know that president trump didn't give that incoming president-elect biden any transition at all because of his efforts to undermine the election, to not cooperate, the biden team had to play catch-up impacted by the pandemic, other trump aids have said to me and others, they have been nothing but professional, and he had to write his tongue a number of times, saying that yes, january 6 should of course be remembered, calling for annual

commemoration, he knows that american democracy has to be honored, the results have to be accepted, donald trump won, he is going to meet with him on the 20th and will attend his inauguration and what he is doing now, yes, there's still executive orders to codify his accomplishments as any president would do, that is not undermining a transition, that is securing a legacy to be sure and he is very mindful of president biden's legacy but also simply trying to codify accomplishments which is hardly a unique thing for an outgoing president but instead we have donald trump seemingly unable to do what jerry baker has advised which is to be a president of all people and we should note, every chance, donald trump had the opportunity to choose vision or unity, here he is highlighting the mob on january 6, attacking the outgoing president, over the weekend screening a

documentary about the 2020 election which he still believes was rigged. which seems to me as democrats, honoring democracy, to certify his election win, donald trump is still picking division. >> and there's a couple of things that come to mind on this, joe is right that the numbers in the united states of america are good and one of the problems we have is not only is there a huge swath of americans telling the news, they don't get an international perspective, they don't realize what great shape we are in compared to the rest of the world, what has it been talked about enough is the anti- incumbency movement, it doesn't matter whether you are on the right in uk or on the left in canada, if you are the incumbent right now, the hangover from covid especially as it relates to migrants and inflation has caused an anti- incumbency move worldwide.

that is the hole that kamala harris is trying to dig out of. at the end of the day, there was a swath of americans that believed that they would be better off, that those eggs would be cheaper under donald trump. he is going to be the incumbent in about 10 minutes and he's going to be expected to bring those prices down and with the one-two punch of debt and tariffs, that is nothing to the order that he has a house of representatives that is so tiny they will not be able to fund the government for those votes, that is when the democrats have to stress how important it is that we stay focused on people who can't afford to buy their groceries. >> coming up, jean robinson

takes us through his latest column in the washington post and what yesterday's event on capitol hill mean for the future of american democracy, morning joe is coming right back. right back this is clem. clem's not a morning person. or a night person. or a...people person.

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>> jean robinson, you are writing this morning in the washington post, why we should remember january 6, 2025, and what happened yesterday, as a stark contrast when kamala harris stood her constitutional duty without incident, lasting about 30 minutes or so, calling

to mind what al gore had to do, the same for george w. bush, and on and on, what stood out to you yesterday? >> what stood out to me is that it was a normal ceremonial certification of the election as we had consistently every four years, until 2021, until january 6, 2021 when donald trump assembled that crowd that he showed, that he highlighted yesterday and sent the mob to the capital to conduct a violent invasion of the capital in which 120 police officers were injured, several took their lives afterward or died, directly because of this, members of congress were

legitimately in fear of their lives, they were chanting hang mike pence, this was all on donald trump and everybody knows that it was, it's the only time in american history that we failed to peacefully transfer power from one party to the other, going all the way back to thomas jefferson's inauguration and we should never ever forget that and what should remind us is a contrast, the contrast with what happened yesterday, which was vice president harris presiding over the certification of her own defeat, as al gore did in 2001. as richard nixon did, as vice president in 1961, as every vice president has peacefully

done throughout our history, so this is how it is supposed to work but, republicans can't just accept election results when they win, so the real test i guess will be the next time we switch from a republican president to a democratic president and we see how the party behaves and whether it behaves in the american tradition and the democratic tradition or the way he behaved in 2021. >> yes, as we end this segment, i just want to circle back to something that claire brought up, that i think we all forget about maybe a little bit too much and that is the pandemic, covid, we brush it aside, we talk about all these other

things that have happened. i do believe that when history is written about this election, and about this time, they are going to talk about what a massive impact covid had, the pandemic, that dark chapter in american history had on voters, it still hangs over us in a sense, the memories of what it meant not only for us, for our children, for our parents, for everybody, and there's just not a much stronger pull from many americans than nostalgia. we remember of course the mortal words of those political philosophers, gladys knight, and when they sang the way we were, gladys started out by saying the good old days, everybody is talking about the

good old days, well they weren't as good as we remember it and as bad as today seems, these will be the good old days for our children. and the pool of nostalgia to the before times, before the pandemic, led so many people to have nostalgia for those times before march of 2020, things were better back then. the economy was better, everything was better, things are horrible now, if we can only go back to the before times, donald trump was president, i like it better back then than where we are now, so we can talk again about all of these trend lines that are extraordinarily positive and again, let me underline that republicans, whether they like it or not will be judged two years from now and for

years from now by how great things are on the macro level, and they will of course be judged where people live, will they be able to bring grocery prices down? will they be able to bring gas prices down? but we can never look past the extraordinarily powerful pull of nostalgia and people thinking back to how things were before the pandemic, for that crack in time that shattered the lives of almost every american. >> with hundreds of thousands of people dead, and the country pulled together by technology and social media at the same time because they couldn't go out. it made a lot of impact as to how we look back now today and we forget. i think it is social media which is a whole different

conversation. let's pause, still ahead, a federal judge was found rudy giuliani in contempt for failing to comply with a $140 million defamation ruling, we are going to go over what happened in court yesterday and what is next with that. plus, president-elect trump loses a bid to delay friday fencing in his hush money case, while he is not expected to face any jail time, our next guest says that doesn't mean the story is over. we are back in a moment. a mome. on chewy, save 35% and shop all your favorite brands. for any taste, or any diet, at prices you love. delivered fast. for low prices, for life of pets, there's chewy.

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just 10 days before he takes office. let's bring in former litigator and msnbc political correspondent, lisa rubin, good morning, good to see you. people have been tuned out for the holiday, let's tuned them in to what is happening, this was the case donald trump was convicted 34 times on felony counts and hush money trial, what was judge merchan ruling on yesterday. >> both the verdict and the indictment, and one of the things that he said, you can't use certain evidence to convict me because i was in the white house at the time, he also made a timing based immunity argument, saying as the president-elect, the same courtesies that are extended to a sitting president should extend to me during the transition period as well because i'm so busy preparing to take the office that essentially the same principles should also apply during the

transition period, merchan rejecting that as well. >> what should we see on friday? >> first of all, judge merchan is the first but not only decision-maker, and donald trump has put in two appeals, one of them was what he filed yesterday, article 78 proceeding, that is when you sue a government actor, like a judge for example, saying that person interfered with their constitutional rights and the relief that he asked for in the suit is an immediate stay of all further proceedings, count on there being a flurry of activity today and perhaps in the coming days before we get to that friday sentencing. >> let's say it does move forward, it is expected all along, even before he won the election, he would face prison time for this, the judge reiterated that recently if i believe but, what are the

possibilities? >> the judge has said in the same opinion that his preference for something called unconditional discharge, that's exactly what it sounds like, there's no penalty associated, no probation, no jail time, nothing other than the conviction staying in place and that is what merchan seems to be fixed on, upholding the verdict itself and the conviction to honor the jury that decided against trump on those 34 felony counts but if there is a sentencing, the other thing we should count on is merchan addressing trump and talking to him about the gravity of his crimes and his lack of remorse. if you read the opinion of the issue the other day, you can see him taking on both of those things also as if merchan is planning, well this might be my last opportunity to address those things, i might not get to those things and therefore i'm going to address in my written opinion the things i were saying to the sky -- to

this guy. trump has the option of being there, again, in merchan's opinion, i will allow you to attend virtually, that is a courtesy extended to almost no other defendant i can think of however, remember that trump coming to court every day during the trial was a real test on the security and other resources of the new york state court system. him coming on friday particularly given the violence we have seen in other areas of the country at the beginning of the year, that is something i'm not sure new york state welcomes right now and therefore merchan gave him the option, it is fine with me if you appear virtually. >> let's move to rudy giuliani and where this is going next. >> rudy giuliani faces mark contempt hearings, whether he turned over enough information about his palm beach condo, he is saying it is now his primary residence, he should be forced to turn that over to satisfy a $150 million verdict, that two

women that found him guilty of defamation, he has turned some things over, for example the key to that convertible. but until yesterday, they didn't have the title to his car. they don't have the deed, they don't have the frame because nobody can figure out exactly where he is. now we are figuring out if the condo is even subject to the order. that was the issue to which he was held in contempt yesterday. but friday, it is about his continued defamation of these two women, there was an injunction that both sides agreed to, where rudy giuliani said i'm not going to tell lies about you guys. i'm not going to say that anymore, and what did he do in late november, in the run-up to

thanksgiving on two successive radio broadcast that rudy giuliani had, according to the women and their lawyers, he did exactly that. on friday, you will be facing a contempt hearing and yet another court and there's still the issue of what you said, has he turned over enough assets? that is an issue that the southern district of new york still has to determine and if money is not enough, what is the ultimate penalty going to be? how do you get him to comply if he is already cash poor? one solution is jail time. >> lisa rubin, thank you. coming up, we will go to atlanta where the memorial services continue this morning for the late president jimmy carter, we have a full preview. that is still ahead on morning joe. morning joe.

>> are you guys ready for the new year?

we are taking deep breaths as we go into 2025 and whatever is ahead in the new year can also be a great opportunity to think about the goals you want to achieve in order to live your dream life, and our next guest has written a playbook to do just that, new york times best- selling author, podcast host and motivational speaker, gabrielle bernstein, entitled self-help, this is your chance to change your life and she outlines the concrete steps for overcoming the beliefs that hold people back in both their personal and professional lives and gabrielle joins us now, i would like to say welcome to the know your value team, if that is okay with you, on board. >> i'm so happy to be here, on board, on the team. >> we have the msnbc contributor and vice chair of forbes, maggie mcgrath, so definitely. >> that is a good team to join.

>> tell us about the genesis of this book, this is your 10th book by the way, but this one, what is your moment for this book. >> i had been practicing in therapy for about 10 years, internal family systems therapy and a radically changed my life, then i knew that i had to do what i do best which is demystify and translate, so i needed to take this and make it self-help, so i turned the model into a self-help book and it is a practice that allows us to really witness the core beliefs that we have carried for our lifetime, the core beliefs that block us from everything we desire, the stories we had, that i'm not good enough, stop looping, but the way to stop is in these work steps. >> okay. >> gabby, i want to ask you, you look like you have the

perfect life, you have 10 successful books but your own journey two decades ago, you had your own struggles and traumas you had to deal with, can you share how your journey shaped your outlook that your readers can learn from? >> you mentioned i wrote 10 books so along the way, i've been writing these books for myself, i've had many moments of crisis along the way, which we all do, 2025 i recovered from drug addiction and had all kinds of trauma memories, things that we all experience postpartum, now perimenopause, the life expenses that we women have, but to the beauty of those moments is it has allowed me to speak authentic truth about what it means to genuinely heal and i have been my first student and i have been my greatest teacher. so here we are, this is how i heal myself through these books. >> as we talk about healing and

the new year's, i know you said in the past, you don't really believe in new year's resolutions, what should we be doing instead? >> a resolution implies that we have something to fix or there something wrong with us, whereas a beautiful moment in this time right now, it is a time to set intention, because intention is empowering, exciting, creative, it is very different from a reputation. >> i love how you say we are our own inner healer, so what advice do you give people that are trying to make a big change in their life? >> instead of checking out from that story, we hear that story inside, we want to go pick up a drink or eat the food or binge on youtube, or in my case i want to listen to mika, we want to do something over the filling, instead of checking out, my guidance is to check

in, the first step is to focus your attention edward -- inward and be curious about those feelings and beliefs, what do i know about it, where do i feel it in my body, how long has it been around and compassionately connect and ask that part of yourself, what do you need? when is the last time you asked yourself, what do i need? >> well, you got me there. >> another topic that you tackle in the book is self forgiveness, so can you talk about how you grappled with this concept and what he most learned about how to forgive yourself? >> so, those beliefs that you have on repeat, what if you consider those belief systems protection mechanisms? what if you saw all of the perfectionism or i'm not good enough or i have to get it done

or i'm not in control and it is not going to happen, those are forms of protection because when we were young we had these extreme moments that we have been protecting ourselves ever since. these behaviors and patterns that we judge ourselves for that we often want to forgive ourselves for, the moment that you see them as a protection mechanism instead of seeing them as a fault that opens your heart to compassion and self forgiveness. so give yourself a chance to say okay, all these patterns and behaviors are just little parts that are trying to protect me. >> well, how can you be compassion to others if you cannot be compassionate to yourself? i struggled with guilt for a lot of years, it was an army and a huffington instagram post that said just don't trip over what is behind you. but, it is really important, you can't move forward if you are sitting there, coming down hard on yourself about things that have happened when you were doing your best at all

times, you have to believe that about yourself and for some reason, i think women, this is why it is a perfect know your value composition, we are hard on ourselves and we don't get past things that have happened in our lives, choices we have made in our lives as easily as men do. it is painful. >> it is really painful and some of that is conditioning and some of that is societal, i think it is global conditioning but i think that coming together in conversations like this is part of our collective commitment to caring for ourselves more and i think there is a huge void, the speech was so beautiful. what did she say, put down the measuring stick? yeah. >> the new book is entitled self-help, this is your chance to change your life, it is out

now, gabriella bernstein, thank you so much, welcome to the community, and this team, thank you both as well. coming up, donald trump's campaign to shock and awe, she joined our panel at the top of the fourth hour of morning joe. e i'm not an actor. i'm just a regular person. after working 25 years in the automotive industry, i retired. eight years ago, i just didn't feel like i was on my game. i started taking prevagen and i want people to know that prevagen has worked for me. give it a try. i want it to help you just like it has helped me. i've been taking prevagen for eight years now and it is still helping me tremendously. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1 and you can help take control of your symptoms,

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time now for a look at some other stories making headlines. chinese officials say a powerful earthquake has killed 95 people with the death toll expected to rise. the 7.1 quake struck along the border of nepal. search crews are working to reach those affected as dozens of aftershocks continue to shake the region.

we will keep you posted. for the first time ever, the pope has nominated a woman leader to run a key office at the vatican. in the new role this italian none -- nun will take on a bigger leadership role in supporting the church. there criticizing the ban of offshore drilling for oil and gas along most areas of the u.s. coast and president biden cited costs and said new drilling was unnecessary to meet the nation's energy needs. trump has repeatedly vowed to expand what he calls american energy dominance around the world. and mcdonald's is rolling back some of its diversity efforts following the u.s. supreme

court's recent decision that outlawed affirmative action in college admissions. the fast food giant plans to scrap specific diversity goals for senior leadership and will no longer incurred suppliers to develop dei training. it is now exactly the top of the hour and the fourth hour of morning joe and it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast. the 2024 election results were certified in a peaceful and uninterrupted session of joint congress, a stark contrast that took place four years ago on the same day. ryan nobles has the details. >> reporter: vice president harris, a few months removed from her lawson the 2024 election presiding over a joint session of congress humbly shepherding the process to officially certify the win of her former political rival.

democrats going to great pains to show they believe the will of the boaters and accepting defeat as part of demonstrating the power of a democratic process. >> america's democracy is only as strong as our willingness to fight for it. >> reporter: the largely ceremonial proceeding was a stark difference from the violence and chaos of four years ago where 140 officers were hurt. the president elect is called those events a day of love and has promised pardons for some of the convicted rioters. he took to his social media platform to call monday certification a big moment in history. trump has been pushing his congressional colleagues to send him one massive bill that addresses a wide range of legislative priorities dealing with taxes, the border and spending cuts but yesterday possibly casting confusion acknowledging that could be difficult. >> my preference is one big beautiful bill.

to do that takes longer and i am open to either way as long as we get something past as quickly as possible. >> reporter: leadership planning to follow his lead. >> we can do anything but there is some merit to the one bill strategy. >> reporter: while he plows ahead with the legislative agenda, he is dealing with lingering legal issues including a sentencing for the new york hush money case this friday with trump pushing for a delay and something the judge reject did but left open the option that he could seek relief elsewhere. >> ryan nobles with that report. joining us now we have the former speaker and spokesperson for the harris campaign adrian elrod, jonathan alter with us and also special correspondent at vanity fair and host of the fast politics podcast, molly

with her latest column entitled donald trump's shock and awe campaign. we will get to that in a moment. joe, we look at this day four years ago and what a difference four years makes. >> what a difference four years makes within the four years but a return to normalcy. again, and you know and we go back and forth on this. >> i am optimistic about america and i obviously share grave concerns with you and many others about things that were said during the campaign, but i do trust the american people at the end of the day that in the long run and i will go to you, jonathan alter, in the long run the american people will do the right thing and we are celebrating the life and the extraordinary career and let me just say and you will understand this better than anybody and not just post presidency but we are

celebrating the jimmy carter that found peace in the middle east and stopped ground wars for 40 years and we are celebrating the jimmy carter that normalize relations with china and created unprecedented economic wealth in america and prosperity across this country and across the globe. we are celebrating the jimmy carter that pushed for human rights before ronald reagan, who pushed to strengthen our military in 1979 and 1980 just three or four years after the of vietnam. it is possible that jimmy carter was only possible because of richard nixon and watergate and the long national nightmare. we could give 100 examples of

how a renaissance grew out of terrible situations and i wonder if this morning looking back at the life of jimmy carter if you have faith in the american people and experiment and we will find our way through whatever faces us over the next four years? >> i do have faith. i have to admit that faith has been shaken some in recent years where i no longer felt confident about the common good sense of the american people. but in the long term, what happens is democracy has a great capacity for renewal. we have seen this not just in the united states but other countries. brazil had a trump like leader and they are now renewing their democracy. democracy has been dented in this country but it hasn't been

destroyed. i think the carter example is very relevant. younger people don't know how bad watergate was. people asked me all the time, you are a journalist. are you afraid of what trump may do to you and your colleagues. i am concerned about it but nixon wiretapped reporters and that's the beginning of some of the really bad stuff that happened and a lot of it through the fbi during what was generally called watergate. with the help of jimmy carter and gerald ford, we came out the other end and renewed our democracy. the difference this time, the thing that is more worrisome is in the 1970s, after nixon resigned, there was a bipartisan sense of how to renew our democracy. i don't get the sense of this is exactly the case here and joe biden was right that

republicans have to learn to accept the elections they lost and not just those they won. there were no concerns about voting this last time because the republicans did win and there is a double standard they need to get past if we will really renew ourselves. >> that is part of the lesson is watching kamala harris doing what kamala harris did yesterday, saying what she said. hakeem jeffries saying loving america means accepting the results of elections even when your side loses. this is an example that may be 50% of americans won't have their minds change but on the margins, and this is an election that moved by 1%. on the margins, overtime, i do

remain optimistic that good winds out. -- wins out. you have such a lively piece and it really goes with the piece from earlier today and we had him on and he talked about the importance of knowing how to face this trump presidency and really echoed some of the things you said, which is we don't swing at every pitch. we don't get triggered by every tweet. we don't get shocked and stunned and deeply saddened when talk of canada is the 51st state or greenland or the panama canal is out there. you say let's learn from the first term. let's stand back and let's pick our fights wisely and make sure that everyone of them counts. >> i think there will be times

when things are really not the norm. and then there will be times when it is bombastic language in order to intimidate a trading partner which i think is what is happening with canada right now. sometimes that works for him and it doesn't necessarily mean a larger thing and we saw this and trump 1.0. i think if everything is an emergency the nothing is an emergency. ultimately, it will be about democrats. i think they did this well in december where they worked carefully to let republicans fight it out and they came in and kept the government open and i think it was a smart play and i think more of that will be the way to work. >> you know i keep going down

to the golden globes where you actually had actors not bowing down to donald trump's some people would suggest but actors coming to the conclusion that we will act and celebrities which there has been a calculation by many hollywood and music stars that there may have been a backlash to all of the celebrities getting involved in politics and there is a story in the new york times talking about it yesterday that there seems to be an adjustment and as was said earlier and as was in the times, people said let's focus on our art and let's have art move people's hearts instead of saying three-minute speeches at the golden globe awards. i do love this wine that molly rights and this seems to be what i am hearing from democrats and what we hear from a lot of thought leaders and

that is, if everything is a crisis, then nothing is a crisis. >> there are a few things democrats have to do. we did here about common ground and we can't just say no to everything because certain things could help the american people though most democrats they try to defeat and also this idea of distraction in the last 24 hours prime minister trudeau of canada and what happened with all sorts of trolling with lindsey graham say next time around when an election is certified canada will be in the mix because it will be the 51st state in a few moments ago donald trump junior landed in greenland as part of that nonsensical idea to purchase that. i think democrats ignore that sort of thing and the question is now which one do you engage

on and how do you and how does your party ignore things like greenland and the panama canal in canada and the focus like mass deportations and the like? >> that is the magic question. it will take real discipline from the democratic ecosystem or the echo chamber or outside groups the numbers of senators playing a major role in whatever the resistances and by the way i think a lot of us have talked about we need a different term for that because tamales point we can't resist every policy which is sort of what our party did and i was part of that in 2017 and 2018 and we were resisting everything that president trump did but we can't do that. there will be places where i think we can find common ground and we will have to pick a battles. i think it is hard for me to answer that question because i don't think we know. there have been mass deportations and when and if

that occurs trump seems to indicate he will at the start of his indication -- administration but yes i think there will be a major effort from a legal standpoint to push back against some of these executive orders that don't have legislative approval or authority. there will be some legal push back. there will certainly be organizations and high profile influencers who are there pushing against that. but we are at this interesting place in the democratic party where we don't have a leader or a de facto person and obviously president biden is the president and vice president harris is the vice president but only for two more weeks. what does january 21 look like and who is the person leading and who is the person leading this outside resistance and again i hate that term but that effort. i think there will be a lot of soul-searching and discussions

and i say put everything in q1 and q2 in the first half of this year to demonstrate where we go forward and it presents a lot of opportunities for democrats. >> yes. i want to make sure that people who are watching at home do understand what we are saying that two things can be true at once. there are those pitches as molly said that democrats don't take swings at but obviously and she will be talking about this new york magazine piece but mass deportations, abortion bands and trillion dollar tax cuts for the richest billionaires and the most powerful multinational corporations that will leave working americans in the dust and cause debt to explode and interest rates to go up that will be tax increases on the

most vulnerable of americans but i do want to talk about something and i saw and i don't know any of the other candidates in the race and i hope he becomes the dnc chair when those elections are happening in february because he has fought the good fight against a rigged system in wisconsin where the gerrymandering is about as bad as i have ever seen it and he has fought his way through that but he made a fascinating point a few days ago in an interview saying democrats need to fight a new battle. it will be the new york times or cnn msnbc, fox news alone. we have to go, he said, outside of that and think about this.

among people who follow the news, boaters , kamala harris won by six points. among those that never followed traditional news sources, she lost by 18 points which means whether it is youtube channels or on podcasts that democrats don't traditionally go on. i remember barack obama being interviewed by someone been in a bathtub with froot loops and i thought what is he doing and it's beneath the dignity of the president. well, barack obama understood a decade ago what democrats need to come to terms with again which is the battlefield isn't going to be fought, the media battlefield and all of the places where it has been for the last 50 years. >> we had discussed this on

your show several times and we have to meet boaters where they are and we did that and the vice president to the number of podcasts and remember between two ferns was the thing that people were turning to and one thing a lot of the strategists have been discussing of the past few weeks since we lost that campaign is the fact that the influencer network, some of the maga folks built up, people who have had major podcasts or youtube channels, they found those people and build them up and helped make that ecosystem happen and we in turn is democrats will find people who have platforms and put our candidates or the spokespeople on those podcasts. i think we have to do better job of taking a page out of the

republican playbook and figure out how we build up the people who have a major presence on youtube in different platforms and how do we build it up and make them have an ecosystem that helps us and we have a lot to learn by tactics from a social media standpoint that the republicans deploy this cycle and i think this'll be a part of what has been talked about and other people in the democratic party of talked about and it really will take thinking outside the box and bringing in some new people and voices into the mix to have conversations and figure out a way forward. >> i do think it is okay for democrats to go into conservative spaces. >> absolutely. >> i think one of the real errors and she was valued and did a good job in this is a very short campaign and harris was amazing but somebody like joe rogan who said he was open to her and we know those clips

were seen by 79 million viewers. it is okay to go on a space like that and for a long time they didn't want to. if they don't go on them the no one does. >> i completely agree. >> the senior writer for the new york magazine, andrea gonzalez ramirez has a new piece entitled do not downplay how bad trump 2.0 will be in first she talked about people saying to her stop catastrophize thing and writes how patronizing that is and just unrealistic and says this as well that it is tempting to think the next four years won't be worse for them than what came before and we survive the first trump administration and it's a sentiment i heard a lot before election day and since but who exactly as we?

not the six migrant children who died in custody in the late 2018 and 2019 years something that hadn't occurred for almost a decade and not my family friend who was among the nearly 5000 people who perished in puerto rico following hurricane maria in 2017 owing to the incompetent federal and local responses to the local disaster and not the 22,000 whom experts believe it trumps rollback of environmental policies and not the 400,000 who died of covid-19 by the time trump left office with 40% of whom experts say could still be alive had trump not accelerated the degradation of the country's public health infrastructure. the impact of his administration's choices is still felt today but just look at all of the women who have

been harmed or died as a result of the abortion ban made possible by the supreme court pics of trump. so number one, government matters and i don't know how much his administration believes that but do give me a second because i do want to ask a question. i do think some of trump's policies are not in donald trump's best interest, what he proposes for the ministration will ultimately hurt him. he will either change course or it will be change because something won't be possible or he will learn not. but as these consequences play out for all of these plans, i ask and adrian is good for this as well that who steps into this void we are talking about? who steps in. it isn't resistance or marches but who is the voice of the future?

and as the trump presidency bears out all of their consequences of terrorists or potential mass deportations and they continue and this is the correct use of the word carnage and the continued carnage of these abortion bands, who is the person or people who can be a voice of this because he couldn't go on or you could go on joe rogan and you can go on these things but if you are not the right person to fix this moment we aren't getting anywhere? >> first of all, it will be a very bumpy ride and we shouldn't be under any illusions about this. there will be issue after issue. it may be, particularly if they follow the advice of jd vance and start defining court orders that people are going to have to go into the streets and there is no point in doing that now with the inauguration because the really bad stuff hasn't come down yet. this will be people power as

part of this and in terms of finding a spokesman for the democratic party, this is an unrealistic expectation. so hakeem jeffries can do a lot and he's a very good spokesperson and almost on an interim basis. this is what primaries are for to determine who the democratic party leader is which is it for three years until we get to those 2028 primaries. at this point, you will begin to see who the near -- new leaders are in the democratic party but in the meantime, however, it is almost an open casting call to whoever is throwing heat on television whether it is pete buttigieg who does a good job of explaining things or somebody else that we haven't thought of who is just really good at cutting through the noise to the nub of what trump is doing to hurt this country and this person organically emerges or it could be more than one person and we do see a good

bench in the democratic party and in the next few years before the primaries you don't even have to be running for president to step forward and be clear and speak plain english and that washington talk and get people to focus. >> in 27 -- in 2017 nancy pelosi was that figures the democrats have to find somebody else because that person has to say there will be compromise but we shouldn't overlook the fact is the piece pointed out that a lot of people in this country are afraid. >> i think jonathan is right. this doesn't have to be one person and i don't think it will be just one. we have a deep bench of governors and mayors and cabinet secretaries and some who may run for the governor of rhode island and we will have voices out there. but i think what we will face as a democrats is there won't

be one human being or one leader we are looking to for everything and i do think jeffries will take a major role and i think chuck schumer and some of the other senators will take over the campaign committee which is huge and helpful but not just one voice and it will be a bumpy ride but we do have a lot of people who will be effective messengers and it can't just be elected officials and one of the primary surrogates spoke about one of her own issues about the texas abortion ban that people who use their voices effectively. >> trump is a lame duck and he is also the oldest person to be elected president and has shown signs of age and it doesn't necessarily have to be bad news as long as people don't engage in anticipatory obedience or bow down and do what the party

is supposed to do which is to be in the loyal opposition and loudly. >> the former senior spokesperson for the advisor for the harris campaign, thank you, adrian. coming up this evening, the late president jimmy carter will lie in state at the u.s. capitol and we will hear from one of the 39 presidents grandsons on the remarkable outpouring he has witnessed from americans which is next on morning joe. >> joe. >> look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

welcome back. the state funeral for former president carter continues today. carter had been lying in repose at the presidential center since saturday with public visitation ending earlier this morning. in a few hours he will leave for the final time headed for washington where a motorcade

will visit the united states navy memorial before the funeral procession travels to the capitol building. tonight he will lie in state in the capitol rotunda where he will remain until thursday before the procession moves to the national cathedral. joining us now live is our news correspondent and what more do we know about what will happen? >> reporter: hello. good morning. we did hear from the carter center staff that in the few days the former president was lying here at the carter center in repose, 23,000 people came out to pay respect and it has been a beautiful few days of tributes and services for the former president here in his home state of georgia with his final journey beginning on saturday morning when the former and current secret service agents assigned to the protective division brought his

remains to the boyhood farm he grew up on in plains, georgia. at this point he was brought through a motorcade processional through atlanta first with a stop in georgia at the capitol weather is a brief moment of silence led by the governor and finally here to the carter center. i got a chance to sit down with his grandson jason yesterday asking him what it was like to be part of this motorcade and see the thousands of people who turned out for his grandfather and let's listen to what he said. >> every overpass on interstate 75 had people standing there. but to me the moments that were the most remarkable were the people who had just pulled over in their car on the side of the road and stood there and saluted. that level of respect especially when you think about our politics and the divisions we see today, the idea that somebody different people,

whatever your politics that they can acknowledge this remarkable american story of this life and the remarkable human being that it was, it was heartening to watch and gave us all a lot of hope. >> i did get a chance to speak to so many who came out and really beyond his political achievements and the humanitarian work he did around the globe and what i heard from so many people was what resonated with him was the type of man he was in the fact that his faith was the foundation for so much that he did and this story of resiliency and the fact that his life was an embodiment of the american dream growing up and i got a chance to go into the carter center and i read the comments and so much pride that he was the only person from the state of georgia to make it all the way to the white house and you

did it, you made it and it has been beautiful and touching. >> thank you. thank you very much and we will be in dc at the national cathedral thursday and you wrote the book on jimmy carter and there are probably a few people in the world that i am excited to have met which is pope john paul ii and the other would be jimmy carter, a man of such character. your thoughts as we get ready to say a final goodbye? >> my thoughts are turning to when he got the nobel peace prize in 2002 and the citation that included words from ecclesiastes and the worst thing is not to try. and jimmy carter, the citation

continued. he tried as much as any man or woman and his life story, which is an epic american story is about not just persistence when he faced obstacles but a determination to live life to its absolute fullest and not just in his own interest. he was ambitious and this is a guy where he and his wife would drive 100 miles out of his way to an african village to talk to one person whom he heard may be doing something for other people in that village and he would do this over and over again. so when he became president people thought he was another politician and a look to see if they could find some corruption which they couldn't and they try to make it seem like he was a mean guy at one point because he could sometimes be cold but

over time people understood this was one of the most unusual committed figures in american history. >> how about his relationship with his wife and the two of them were such a force and i read in my dad's book he would often find them in the theater at the white house because they would watch movies together holding hands and at one point in the beginning of his administration they would watch movies in spanish. >> they would do that, reading the bible in bed for years. >> they are so incredible. what a week. thank you, jonathan alter, so much for coming in this morning. >> coming up, two social media platforms are making major changes to their fact checking policies and the election is why and we will tell you which ones they are and we will talk

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here is some troubling news. this morning mark zuckerberg announced a series of changes for the company including, get this, the and of its fact checking program for facebook and instagram. it will be replaced with a system similar to the community notes that is found on the social media platform x. let's bring in the coanchor of the squawk box, and are, it goes from bad to worse with meta-and with some of the others. and of course applebaum who is a brilliant writer and writes on autocrats and misinformation has talked and warned about this for some time the fact

that all of these and other companies are deliberately pushing down, suppressing political journalism and gutting the fact checking system and now mark zuckerberg does this and says that there is a shifting political landscape and the desire to embrace free speech is that what we have seen where misinformation is worse today than it has ever been. >> let me add a few notes. in addition to those things you just described they added the head of the usc to their board in the last 24 hours just to give you a little bit of political context and what is happening and you may remember there was a policy business

nick clegg is now leaving the company and the other thing interestingly was to the extent that they are going to have people working for facebook, policing, if you will content, they will move out of california, those people in that department to the state of texas and other states so just a full pitcher here with community notes by the way in some respects actually a very good product in that it is nice there are people who will correct the record quickly but the problem is and i think we know is that, first of all the crazier it is, click fate, the farther it goes. historically, the correction never gets the same kind of airtime that the first post gets. here we are in this new world and this is not just a matter or facebook story but a story across the board whether it is this and obviously mark zuckerberg had gone down to see the president, president-elect

recently separately and you have amazon making a documentary deal with melania trump and what is happening here is a major shift. so the meta-thing they say it's for open expression and it's in line with trump and his allies have been calling for. we see this slowly on every site and there is video-based social media apps that have no fact checking and not even community notes. >> this goes back to the larger question and i doubt we will get any new rules on this in the next four years but do we think that social media companies should be held at the same liability standards that we are right here? that is the question. here is the question of who controls this. by the way, i will submit to you that i do think some of the

changes that went on during covid and things like that went too far in part of what we see is a pendulum swinging from one way that may have gone too far on one end to another way and i imagine in a few years that people will say this is too far and the question is where does it go next. >> yes. they are using that for such cynical reasons because of mistakes that were made by twitter and other social media platforms in the past and they are using that and have used that as an excuse to go in the other direction in the most extreme way. you are right. what is the old saying that a lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still getting its pants on or boots on or whatever it is getting on but that is a problem with this community policing is the lies go out and spread rapidly. you have so much information being spread on all of these platforms especially on x that

the truth barely stands a chance with catching up to it. >> there will be a big question, not just how it affects them editorially -- regulatory early and there are lawsuits outstanding and this is part of it but the other question is what the user base will think and it's this counter to twitter and if it turns into twitter for example it may not be a good business for them and i don't know. if the consumer is the ultimate arbiter where this will land. >> it may not be a mark twain coat but it is while the truth is putting on his shoes. i think you made this up.

i think it's one of these quotes that nobody knows exactly who said it. >> people have said it is mark twain. jonathan swift said something like it. and we will just go with the andrew ross sorkin quote that has to do with pants and that's all you need to know. it was andrew ross sorkin's quote. thank you so much. what is coming up next? >> will get a live report from london were leaders are pushing back against the influence of billionaire elon musk as he looks to weigh in on the united kingdom's politics. morning joe will be right back. k

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her penthouse. >> an old joke. an old story. >> it is an old joke. the amazing thing about the joke is that as old as it is it doesn't get any funnier and i have to say that the this is still a good one. we could. andrew, we did stick around. >> i just need to defend my honor so you are right about mark twain and i don't know if he is the original but that was traveling halfway around the world before the truth puts it shoes on but then winston churchill said it's halfway around the world before it has a chance to get its pants on. >> it was neither. it was neither churchill nor twain and as i read online over the last 30 seconds british

both killers will tell you that churchill would never have said that because pants meant underpants with no evidence. >> i see. i see how this works. >> let me tell you how it works. i was trying to talk first and protect you. and then when you kept talking i said we can go back and run the tape and i said don't do it because i will tell you this is a quote and an offshoot of this but i think people that use it. jonathan swift in 1710 wrote this. falsehood flies, and the truth comes limping after it. from jonathan swift 1710 quote,

people have claimed it was gandhi or churchill or whatever but we do definitely know that churchill didn't talk about pants. >> so we do have all these quotes and i love all these great quotes where they say it wasn't this person or that and i will claim the quotes myself. america is great because america is good. okay he didn't say it. great. >> what is his obsession with pants? >> andrew? >> i don't know. >> this was joe scarborough acting as our own community notes. >> thank you. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> andrew, since you have stuck around, let's end on a positive note. let's talk about the nfl. another blockbuster and financially another blockbuster season for the nfl and again if

you look at the top shows, we talked about this at the end of 2023 and you can see the top shows of 2024 and once again the nfl and it is so fascinating i know is you are driving through neighborhoods or walking through neighborhoods or whatever. it does seem to me or if you are on a plane walking up and down the aisles, it does seem to me that the one thing that does unite so much of the culture is this fragmented split culture that remains the national football league. >> it is the one thing that keeps people together. you see it now. and by the way it is on many networks obviously and nbc as part of that but whether it is netflix or beyonce or during christmas, this is -- i don't want to say it is the true american pastime and if i say that i am sure baseball fans go out of their minds. >> the playoffs this weekend and all of these networks have games so let's talk now about another update tech story and

elon musk formally ingrained himself into the upcoming trump administration, he is looking overseas to europe. leaders in france, germany and norway are presenting a united front in pushing back at the billionaire warning he shouldn't get involved in their internal affairs. and in a series of social media posts, he is accused the uk prime minister of multiple crimes and called for his imprisonment as well as a new election and says he said the united states should liberate the united kingdom and joining us now live from london is our international correspondent, ralph sanchez and it feels like it is reaching a boiling point and bring us up to speed as to what is going on. >> if you look at elon musk's feed over the last few days, he has been posting almost nonstop about british politics and specifically about a child sex abuse scandal that is rock this

country in recent years. this is a real scandal and not made up and an inquiry found thousands of children were abused over an extended period in the north of england that multiple layers of law enforcement and child protective services failed to keep these kids safe. this is a real scandal but musk is tweeting about it in the most incendiary terms and specifically he is accusing britain's new prime minister of somehow playing a role in a cover-up of these crimes in his old job as a prosecutor and there's no evidence to support these incendiary claims but it hasn't stopped him calling not just for new elections even though he got the last election but also calling for keir starmer to be arrested. this is being discussed in

parliament and at the top of the news broadcast and then keir starmer after several days of trying to ignore his posts, yesterday he was forced to respond in here is what he said. >> those that are spreading lies and misinformation, as far and wide as possible are not interested in victims the. they are interested in themselves. >> now, it isn't just keir starmer pushing back but you also said the president of france speaking out deeply concerned about the world's richest man interfering in elections in europe especially the german elections next month and he is supporting the far right party in germany poised to do very well and also flirting with making a major donation to a new populist right-wing party called reform and what is notable about that is money in politics here is a

fraction of what it is in the united states so even if he were to donate what in the united states would be pocket change, a few million dollars, it could have a big impact here in the uk especially as reform is trying to overtake the conservatives as the maine political force here. >> thank you, ralph. >> your very brief thoughts on the rising international influence? >> in america, we have a real money in politics problem which the door was open to by citizens united ruling. and i would be curious to see what they can do their. -- there. that does it for us. we pick up the coverage right now. coverage right now. right now on ana cabrera reports the final standoff between donald trump and