communicator. historians have a different mission. we need to look at presidents by how they touched and changed the country and the world. and in that sense, jimmy carter was a visionary leader for a lot of the reasons on the environment and foreign policy that are getting a lot of good discussion this week. and then he continued his work because he believed that public service was way beyond serving in government. he was only in government for 12 years out of 100. he believed you could make a big contribution in your own community. n your own community. >> jonathan alter, thank you for making time for us on a very busy day for you. appreciate it. that is "all pron" on this thursday night. alex wagner starts now. good evening, alex. i have to say this, in the spirit of thmy deceased father, part of the reason there was so asmuch consternation around carr is because his presidency in

many ways provoked or oversaw a schism that saw ted kennedy, the true north, applicable today. >> and unresolved in certain ways. >> exactly. very much esso.ly >> thank you my friend for a really phenomenal show. >> i appreciate that. okay. there is no longer any questiona donald trump will reenter the white house as a convicted felon. the president-elect is due to be sentenced for his 34 felony convictions in the new york case. he will tiingo from a felon to officially convicted felon. in a last ditch attempt to stop that sentencing, trump had asked the supreme court to intervene, an attempt to effectively run anout the clock until trump was sworn in as president and could no longer be criminally sentenced. before we came on r air, the supreme court decided not to

intervene on trump's behalf. in a 5-4 decision, chief justice john roberts and justice amy coney barrett sided with the three liberal justices on the court, and denied trump's request. alito, kavanaugh, gorsuch said they would have kgranted. this comes after justice alito spent titime on the phone discussing a former alito clerk up for a position in the incoming trump position. they did not discuss trump's request which had not been filed. but the supreme court was not the only conservative bench to deny trump a win tonight. moments after the high court decision came down, the 11th circuit court of appeals handed trump another rebuke, rejecting trump's efforts to block the release of special counsel jack smith's report on trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election. now, trump's legal team was attempting to stop the justice department from releasing that report. and it looked initially like it

might succeed after a favorable r ruling from trump's favorite district judge, aileen cannon. but tonight, again, the conservative 11th circuit ruled erthis that report can be relead and may be released as soon as this sunday. we now have two significant judicial rebukes of president-elect donald trump prfrom two conservative federal courts. and while all of these legal victories do not change the fact that donald trump will be sworn in as president in 11 days, it does puncture the veil of invulnerability that has shrouded trump in the lead up to his second term, and the big question is this a sign of what's to come. joining me now is melissa s murray, law professor and former clerk to justice sonia sotomayor, author of "the indictments" and tim miller, host of the wark podcast. thank you for being here and

responding to the significant developments in the last hour. the double whammy, denials from conservative courts, how lssignificant are they? >> they're obviously significant. the ruling from the supreme court puts in place the sentencing, cements that sentencing that's going to happen. that will make donald trump the first convicted felon to d be inaugurated as president p. aubreaking barriers all over th brplace here, and the ruling is significant. i will note the 11th circuit left judge cannon's temporary order blocking the release of the report for three days after the decision on appeal, so that means we won't get the release of this until sunday as you noted. merrick garland suggested that he was not going to release the mar-a-lago report because there are two additional defendants there, codefendants of donald trump. that, i odthink, is a little interesting and concerning because it's entirely likely that when donald trump becomes president on january 20th, the doj will dismiss the charges

against carlos and we could get ndthis over with and have the d dismiss the charges and release the report. i think there's a lot in the report that would be very important for the american public to know. but, icagain, these are two significant wins, i don't know if it gnmeans that the courts a going to be a bulwark against donald trump indefinitely going into the future, but it is, i think, at this point, a reason for americans to breathe a sigh of relief. s at>> i want to unpack each decision separately. tim, sort of the narrative here, maybe tfor some people the difference between a felon and a convicted felon isn't sizable, but i tend to think that donald trump cares. that he's going to be entering office as a convicted felon, and the tesort overture into his inauguration day is going to involve, he'll be appearing virtually, but a court sentencing him to punishment for being convicted on 34 felony counts. i think that still matters. i think it should matter. what do you think?

>> i think that melissa is here for the legal expertise, and i'm here for the feels. >> that's right, sir. >> does it matter and in what sense and to who, right. there's not any real ramifications for donald trump. he's not going to go to jail because of this. he's not going to be denied mph inauguration because of this, and tiso like the only actual ramifications are historical, this is now will be on the records that he will have broken this barrier as a convicted felon going into the white house, and what it means to him. and my initial response to all of ithis was i thought that, i don't know, sometimes donald trump likes the show, likes the circus, and he's like, heck, let's go do this thing. i'll go to new york for old k time's sake and poke my finger in kethis guy's eye. he really didn't want to do that. he revealed that this bothers him, the fact that they tried to go to the supreme court, and he

has been lashing out on social media. he's onot somebody who plays cards close to his vest.is we can tell he is upset about this. if that matters l s to you, you take a little solace in it. >> yeah, the fact is he's not coming to new york mostly, he's getting special dispensation to appear virtually.ti he's holding on to the fact that the ngcourt in its decision suggest that had if trump doesn't like the decision, he can go through kethe appellate process. this is what he said a few minutes ago when he was asked about the supreme court's decision. >> thwell, they called for an appeal. and as you know, they acknowledge what the judge said about no penalty, and there's no penalty. we're going to appeal anyway psychologically, frankly, it's a disgrace. i'll do my little thing tomorrow. they can have lfun with their political opponent.he first of all, the court didn't call for an appeal. they suggested he could follow that route, right, melissa.

break down for me what you think happens now. >> you know, the court did not call for donald trump to pursue an appeal. it simply noted that many of the issues he had raised in his certiorari petition could be resolved through the appellate channels in new york state, in traditional appeal, not the emergency appeal he's pursuing, nor did the court say this was a little thing. judge merchan said he indicated he was unlikely to give donald trump jail time and would be giving him an unconditional discharge. the fact remains cothat donald trump is still going to be convicted. his conviction will stand. he will be gthe first felon toe inaugurated as president, and that is really happening, and he basically said what tim has been saying, it's psychological for him. this is not a distinction that he enjoys. it's not something that he wants hanging over his head. in no way did the court minimize this. he was right to a certain a degree, the court could have

grsaid more. the fact they emphasized the y unconditional discharge, perhaps they do or at least some portion of the nine believes that the fact that this really isn't going to be an imposition on his duties in the transition period means that it's fine for this to go through. if it was going to be a more weighty sentence, they might make a different decision on that point. there's a lot of play in this decision, but i don't think it's exactly buas he characterized i >> i want to ask you another question about erhow the court came to this decision, right? this comes the day after we had official reporting from abc, confirmed by nbc news, that donald trump and sam alito, one of the judges on the court had a phone conversation basically talking about a new hire for the trump white house. they assured the press that they did not speak about the filing that trump would make later in the day. i do wonder how much the appearance of impropriety there may have factored into this

decision, the fact that roberts and toamy coney barrett sided wh etthe three liberals on the cou, do you e read anything into tha? >> i think it's worth questioning, it was an unusual situation to have the president of the united states calling to check treferences on a relativy middling appointment in the department of defense. something the chief of staff would do, not necessarily the president itself. arcalling the former employer, justice of the united states, just before a certiorari petition is filed before the court. there were no conversations. the optics of this are obviously terrible, particularly in light of the fact that we know that justice alito has been embroiled in a number of different controversies related to the perhaps inference that he has ideological views that this wasn't great. we know that the chief justice, although he wrote the immunity decision for donald trump he does care ciabout the court's reputation and its standing with

the public. he just issued his year end report of the judiciary where he went into a whole thing about how the american public has to have faith in the courts, so i really do think there might have been a situation here where at least two of the republican appointed justices felt that, you know, the optics were really poor here, and maybe that helped tip the scale, or maybe they simply felt this was a petition, and it kind of was a dumb petitik the optics were pr terrible. it reminds me of the census case. you go back to 2019 when the republicans were trying to put the citizenship question on the census. the oral argument, it looked like the entire republican lineup was on board to side with the trump administration, and then it came out that the republican strategist cache of documents, atdetailing how the republican party planned to use it and change the representation maps around the country, all of a sudden the chief justice switched his vote, it seemed,

and sided with those who had been opposing the addition of the census question. it could be a situation like that. >> before we go, tim, your thoughts on the 11th circuit, aileen cannon, trump's favorite judge, someone he praises for tbeing brilliant, formidable, know you talk on the bulwark about aileen cannon's audition, getting slapped down by the 11th circuit, deciding special counsel's report can be released. >> i'm not sure she cares about that so much as long as she's still in the chgood graces of donald trump, and look, she has really stood out, and i think that the aileen cannon model is something to be mindful of as we look into trump 2.0. he kind of outsourced a lot of judge decisions to kind of the conservative legal world, leonard leo and that crowd. i don't know that that's going to be the case this time. i think he's going to look for more people like aileen cannon

eewho he thinks are going to be loyal to him. there were multiple time, including this one, she advanced really preposterous rulings. there were elements of this, things that she was trying to suppress that weren't even under her purview, and so like the notion that this random judge is going to be able to do this favor for donald trump is crazy in the first place. it's nice to see that overturned. i hope that the attorney general does the right thing, and we publicize the jack smith report and as melissa mentioned also, i think the information about the ininvestigation into the mar-a-lago raid and the classified documents case. >> melissa murray, thank you for your legal expertise. tim miller, we have many more feels to discuss this evening. so please don't go too far. we have much more with you ahead. up next, we're tgoing to follow the breaking news out of los angeles where devastating wildfires continue to wreak havoc in one of america's largest and most populist cities.

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tonight, wildfires continue to ravage the city of los angeles. the two major fires, the eaton and palisades fires are nowhere near being contained with the palisades fire at 6% containment

and the eaton fire at 0% containment. fire crews are battling multiple smaller fires, including another new brush fire in west hills on the far west side of the san fernando valley. that fire started just hours ago, and it has already grown to around 1,000 res with 0% containment. collectively the fires have burned an area of more than 30,000 acres, more than twice the size of manhattan, and forced more than 180,000 people to evacuate. as we enter the third day of these fires, we are just starting to get a rough, and i mean very rough understanding of the scope of the destruction here. officials are estimating that 5,000 structures have been destroyed by the palisades fire alone. that is the fire in and around the neighborhood of pacific palisades. on the east side of the city, officials say the eaton fire, the fire in and around the neighborhood of altadena, officials say that fire alone

has destroyed another 4 to 5,000 structures. now, i should say that when officials use the term structures, that could refer to anything from homes to garages or even burned cars. right now, the city's manpower is still primarily focused on fighting these fires and evacuating the people in the way of the fires, so these are just preliminary counts, and officials warn that because these counts are done via helicopter and satellite, they are not an exact science. that said, we have images and they do not look good. this is a satellite photo from before the fire. it's an aerial view of homes along the pacific coast highway in malibu. this was that same stretch of road yesterday, with home after home, just completely gone. this is a satellite photo of what the neighborhood of altadena looked like before the fire. you can see it's a relatively dense neighborhood, lots of homes, lots of businesses, here's that same neighborhood last night. this is an infrared satellite

image, which is why the mountains appear blue but the orange and red you see there is fire. here's that same neighborhood but zoomed out a bit more. it's june an unbelievable amount of it on fire. again, all the numbers we are getting from officials about the scope of the damage are preliminary numbers, and that means they are very likely to change. in the past 24 hours, the financial firm jpmorgan doubled its estimate of the total economic losses expected from these fires. the estimate is now nearly $50 billion. again, these are all just early estimates. los angeles is still focused on fire fighting and evacuations. to begin a proper accounting of just how much damage has been done. and unfortunately, property damage is just one of the things we truly do not know the full scope of yet. here was l.a. county sheriff, robert luna today speaking about the official death toll from these fires, which as of last night was at five.

>> regarding any death toll information, yes, we had preliminary numbers yesterday. i got to be honest with you, as i reviewed some of those last night and this morning, i was not satisfied with some of the information that we're getting, and it's not the fault of our people. the people that are working under very difficult conditions are doing their best to do what they need to do. at one point, we'll be able to do a more thorough search of these impacted areas. some of them look like a bomb was dropped in them, where we will be able to bring in k-9s and other things to help us hopefully not discover too many fatalities. that's our prayer. unfortunately, based on the preliminary information i've seen, at least in the two large fires that we're dealing with on each side of the county, unfortunately, i think the death toll will rise. i hope i'm wrong, but i think it's going to rise. >> since sheriff luna made those remarks this morning, the

official death toll has risen to six. one of the key factors fueling all of these fires and making them so very difficult to fight is the wind speed. the national weather service warns that wind speeds are likely to increase again tonight with gusts of up to 65 miles per hour. they should die down again tomorrow morning through this weekend, but they are expected to pick back up with another strong santa ana wind event anticipated to begin on monday. and with no forecast of rain in sight, that means these fires will remain difficult to fight. but backup is starting to arrive. yesterday, the l.a. county fire chief told reporters that l.a.'s more than 9,000 firefighters were not enough to fight this many fires all at once. today, president biden announced that the federal government will give and surge 400 federal firefighters, 500 wildlife clearance personnel, and 30 fire fighting planes and helicopters to the region. the state is also expecting hundreds of firefighters from nearby states like arizona, nevada, new mexico, utah, idaho,

washington, and oregon as well as from as far away as canada. as much as the damage from these fires is already horrifying, the threat of even more damage is still very much alive. joining me now is nbc news correspondent gadi schwartz who's live near the eaton fire in altadena, california. gadi, i know you're wearing an apparatus to help you breathe. if you could just tell us kind of what the situation is on the ground, the air quality and the containment efforts for one of the biggest fires in all of this. >> reporter: and sorry if i'm a little bit muffled. just a little while ago. we were talking fine without the masks for a little bit. we took them down, and then the winds shifted and whatever we are smelling right now, or were smelling when the masks came down was very much -- it smelled toxic, hurt the lungs, and so we immediate put our masks on. i'm going to have to do this with the mask.

pardon me. >> please, gadi, yeah, do what you need to do. go ahead, please. >> reporter: yeah, no worries, and right behind us, this is a building. you can see walls up. this is an exception here in this area of altadena. the neighborhoods down this way, most of the homes there that we have been seeing throughout the day, they don't even have walls up. it is just the foundation. the only brick that's standing is maybe a chimney, if they had a chimney. everything else is molten metal. concrete foundation, and the rest of it is ash. it has been astronomically, you know, horrific to see all of this devastation and, you know, there's a lot of comparisons between the eaton fire, which is what we're seeing out here. you mentioned that 4,000 structures, and that includes, you know, some of the houses and then the structures that they may have behind there, like a shed, and those numbers are preliminary. 4,000 earlier, it was 1,000,

they're saying 4,000. just by being these neighborhoods, that's not a surprising number to us. that sounds accurate. what i can tell you is yesterday we were also in the palisades and when you compare what we're seeing out here in eaton, at the eaton fire in altadena, versus what you're seeing in the palisades, unfortunately the palisades, those numbers are extremely preliminary. whatever those numbers are, they are going to be so much higher. and the type of devastation out there is just as bad as it was here. but, again, there are differences in those communities. one of the things that a lot of people have been talking about today are questions about insurance and the assistance that the white house has promised and fema has propsed -- promised and the assistance of covering 100% of the fire fighting efforts for i believe

it's 90 days, and possibly assistance for people that have lost everything here. the big difference between the community of altadena and in particular, a couple of streets down the way here is that this isn't necessarily a largely affluent community. there are some communities here that, you know, it's one stretch was described as nonenglish speaking migrants who lived in -- rented houses and they weren't sure that the renters or the people that were renting them, the property, had insurance, and so there was a fear that because they didn't speak english, they were just going to take this as a complete loss and that they would have no resources. that is something that a lot of people here are dealing with, and trying to figure out where to go from here tonight, where to go from here going forward because so many of them have been left with just the clothing on their back.

that's a cliche you hear from time to time. however, it is the very shared reality for so many people that we've talked to. the fire ripped through here at about 4:00 in the morning. that's when so many people got out of their beds and they evacuated and so many of them had no time to gather their belongings and leave, alex. >> it's just a staggering amount of damage. obviously we have just bit a glimpse. tip of the iceberg in terms of what the toll is going to be here. gadi schwartz, thank you for taking the time. appreciate you. joining me now is katy tur, in the pacific palisades neighborhood of los angeles where she grew up. katy, you have been talking so beautifully, and i have found it really moving talking about what this experience has been like for you standing in the ashes of your childhood memories in a lot of ways. can you just, for people who haven't heard it and even for

people who have, what's it been like for the last 24 hours? >> reporter: it's been really weird. it's been so weird, alex. when this story broke a couple of days ago, i looked at the images and i thought, oh, my god, this is going to be bad. because, you know, i knew up. there were fires in malibu, there were fires all over los angeles. my parents were news reporters. i had a helicopter, i grew up in the skies over brush fires and malibu fires. i have vivid memories of it. and they would get close to the palisades, i would watch the ridge line from my grandmother's house in the highlands. there was one in particular that threatened the ridge line, threatened to go through the valley and get into the highlands. it never did, and we always felt so lucky that it never did, and this time we were not lucky at you will a. that fire, sch started in the highlands just ended up ripping

through everything. you would say to yourself, if if there was a fire in the palisades, it wouldn't go down to the flat areas, like the alphabet streets. if you look at aerials of the alphabet streets or from a higher viewing point which we can do from here, though it's dark, you can't see it now. all of the streets are decimated. and they're called alphabet street because they go, a, b, c, d, e, f, g. you look at the line of streets, and they're just gone, you know, and it's so weird rolling up to it because i come -- the first home we lived in here, i came, and i was flooded with these memories. memories that i haven't considered in decades, you know, memories of carving a pumpkin with my friends. memories of the first time i rode a bicycle. i was great at riding the bike. i was not great at stopping the bike. i flew off the neighbor's front lawn and off the little edge they had. i learned how to brake after that. i remember hiding from my

parents because i was mad they wouldn't give me match park cars. they called the police and the fire department. i was just literally hiding in the yard. behind something. they couldn't find me. i was a very stubborn kid. and just seeing that and trying to come to terms with the vivid memories i had, you know, the first kiss i had on the alphabet streets, a boy named johnny, we knocked teeth. there's nothing familiar about it. i had a regard time identifying the homes of my best friends, up the street, six doors down. i couldn't figure out which one it was. it's so unfamiliar that i think there's a distance, i don't think it's totally hit me yet what has happened because i don't recognize anything. it doesn't look like my home. there's some fires up above me here. we moved around a lot. we lived in a number of houses here.

we rented and i ved in a house right below those fires, it's completely gone. they're worried about the hot spots. the wind is going to pick up again. there are homes up there, just a couple of them that haven't burned. they're worried about it crossing the ridge over into the other parts of the palisades that have been able to stay safe from this, like the riviera, and into brentwood and getting to the 405. they're just concerned that it could still be out of control. i will tell you, there were super scoopers up. aerial fire fighting happening all afternoon. all morning, it was such a blessed sight. such a relief, because they can really impact the flames in a way that a single firefighter or even a team of firefighters cannot. they're supposed to be able to operate at night. i haven't seen them in hours and hours. i wonder what's happening. i heard it was maintenance, but who knows. it's weird, alex. it's really weird. and these for me are just memories.

there are so many thousands of people, and gadi's right, the estimate is wrong, it's got to be low. there are so many thousands of people that are going to be coming back to this. it's not in their memories. it's the life they are living right now, and the schools are closed. they're not closed, they're destroyed. even if you wanted to come back, you would have nowhere to send your kids. the grocery store is gone. the churches, the synagogues, gone. it's just really a terribly depressing scene. it looks apocalyptic. it's unfathomable the amount of damage in this one town. >> yeah, memories solinged to a -- linked to a place, and this isn't the past for a lot of people, this is the present, and the question of when to rebuild, how to rebuild, if you can rebuild is just not even answerable at this moment. i think when big natural disaster happen, it's very rare

that we have someone who can speak so keenly to the emotional weight of the moment, and it's so valuable to all of us here inside the building and out to have you there as hard as it is. it's really moving to hear you talk. >> reporter: can i add one more, yeah, listen, i think it's good to have people who know the communities that they're covering, and jacob soboroff grew up here too, and he has been speak ing so eloquently as well. these communities are easy to characterize afar. that is neighborhood full of rich celebrities, they'll be fine. it's not just that. there are a whole lot of ddle class folks who have lived here for generations, a whole lost of history, you can't just rebuild, put a shiny veneer, there's real worry that this place is going to change, even more than it has over the past few decades, even for me coming back here before

this all burned down, third-degree changed a lot, and it was a new social strata that had taken over. and there's a worry that that's going to continue. that there will be people who, you know, lived here because they lived here for a long time who won't be able to continue living here, won't be able to have the next generation take over a home, and send their kids to the lovely schools that will be rebuilt here, the public and private schools that would be rebuilt here. in new york, we have zoning regulations, you can only build this certain type of home in a certain type of place. i would hope in the alphabet streets you wouldn't be able to take over multiple lots and build big homes that we see in a lot of other places. alphabet streets, small lot os, small single family homes.

ride your bike around the neighborhood. you felt safe. you weren't worried about traffic. you could play ball in the street. it's something that i hope the town comes together, and says to themselves, we need to keep that. we need to preserve it. we need to not give way to some of the other instincts. >> katy tur, my friend, i'm sending you a virtual hug, and a real hug when you get back. thank you for doing the show tonight. >> thanks. >> thank you for being there for all of us. stay safe. >> thanks for having me. still ahead, the staggering economic costs of the california wildfires as extreme weather trends towards a new normal. veteran climate journalist jeff goodell joins me after the break. stay with us.

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jpmorgan is currently estimating that the overall economic cost of the california fires will be close to $50 billion. given the fact that the largest fires remain uncontained, and a comprehensive assessment is not expected to happen anytime soon, that number is more than likely to go up and maybe by a lot. this comes as california attempts to dig itself out of an insurance crisis, one that has been caused in large part by years of wildfires. made increasingly worse by the effects of climate change. just last year, california's

largest home insurer sate farm canceled tens of thousands of plans across the state. 70% of state farm policy holders in the pacific palisades were dropped from their coverage only months ago, and now that very community has been decimated. this phenomenon is not exclusive to the golden state. in recent years, insurance companies have also been pulling out of hurricane prone states including florida and louisiana. and it is certainly possible, even likely, that this trend is going to grow, given the stark reality of climate change. joining me now is jeff good del a veteran climate journalist and author of the "new york times" best keling selling book "the hl kill you first," jeff, thank you for being here tonight. first of all, we haven't begun to grapple with state farm dropping coverage for 70% of the palisades. this is the future that's upon us. if anything is a wake up call,

do you think the insurance company saying you're no longer insurable, the climate risk is too high. do you think it's part of a larger trend? are we going to see more and more of this? >> absolutely. the risks of living in this new climate, this hotter, more turbulent climate that we're living in now are not priced in to insurance. the insurance risks are escalating quickly, and, you know, you were seeing it around the country. we're seeing florida, texas, california, prices doubling, tripling, insurers pulling out. there's tremendous financial implications to this. if you have insurers pulling out of a place, and you try to go get a mortgage, you can't get it. right? so you then have a real estate market that's driven, you know 000,000,000 cash, and that's driven by cash. there's all of these domino effects of these rising insurance prices, and it all boils down to the fact that we are not looking squarely in the eye of this new climate that we

have created by 150 years of burning fossil fuels. >> i wonder if this is a moment where people just decide not to rebuild or not to move back? right? even the people who can afford to do it would be putting themselves squarely in harm's way, whether it's wind or water or fire. you're talking about stretches on the pch on 100 feet of land going to the sea. these were $85 million homes that are squarely in the path of destruction. i wonder if we're going to begin to see the real migration that is part of climate change, the inevitable effects of it. >> i think there's no question this will have an impact on that. i think the people build houses for all kinds of reasons, and everybody is different. some people can afford to build an $85 million house and have it burn down every six years, and there's other people who, you know, one time they have the experience of fire like this,

and they lose everything and they're gone because they can't afford to rebuild. they can't afford to these these kinds of risks. hopefully there will be different planning of what fire officials called the wildland urban interface, where you have buildings in high risk areas, but ultimately, you know, this is going to be a kind of personal decision for a lot of people, and you know, i think it's inevitable that these -- that our changed climate is going to change where and how we live. >> it would necessitate also cities changing basic infrastructure, right, i mean, having an urban water supply system in an area that is now one where massive wildfires can rip through means changing the way you deliver water. >> totally. >> power lines, which often start these fires are going to have to be buried. does this not prompt an evaluate of the way cities run. >> i hope so. when we talk about climate

change, we talk about green energy and clean energy, and reducing co 2 emissions, which is really important. an equally important part or more important part of that is the adaptation side. right? building cities that are more resilient. one of the reasons there was a shortage of wire for some of these fires is because power went out in the water pumps because of the fire. if you had these water pumps on micro grids and things like that that weren't so vulnerable to power going out, you would have better power supply, sea level rise, building in ways with more natural buffers, from rising seas. there's a whole bunch of ways that we need to rethil how we build our cities and live our lice because the sort of blunt truth of it is that we have built our world far climate that no longer exists. >> we are in a different stage entirely. well, this is, you know, a dech devastating moment, but from it

we will learn more lessons to make us more resilient for the future that's on our doorstep. jeff goodell, great to have you here. thanks for your perspective. thank you for joining me tonight. >> thank you for having me. as we get ready for trump 2.0, democrats are grappling with a very serious question, how seriously should we take the things donald trump says. we're going to get some wisdom come on that from the great tim miller just ahead. from the gre miller just ahead. rting and risk-reward analysis, help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. ♪♪ with powerful, easy-to-use tools power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley

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today all of america's living presidents were seated together in the washington national cathedral paying tribute to former president jimmy carter in a rare, somber show of unity. it was a stark contrast to donald trump's news conference on tuesday when he announced his desire to take control of the panama control and canada and buy greenland. denmark at least is taking trump's comments seriously. officials told cnn a frank conversation about trump's remarks rather than assuming he isn't serious will likely be the only way to stave off a crisis. joining me once again is tim miller, host of the bulwark podcast. thank you for being here. i want to get your thoughts on the right way to talk about or not talk about trump's cockamamie, plans which can be planks in his forthcoming administration. is it entertain it like denmark is or like tony blinken says,

it's not a good one, it's not going to happen. we shouldn't waste time talking about it. >> at some level i'm sympathetic to tony, watching the last two segments with katy and jeff about all the real damage being done in california, now i have to come on and talk about greenland, invading greenland. it's hard to take it seriously on some level. >> for the record, that's what trump is talking about with great passion and fervor in the middle of this crisis, it should be noted, but go ahead, please. >> that's a good point. look, these are the two ways in which i think it is politically meaningful besides to point and laugh, and sometimes it's important to point and laugh. there are real geopolitical issues at stake. if you look at panama, panama doesn't have a standing army. they had a military coup a couple of decades ago. panama might have to reconsider their whole governing strategy, how they secure their country,

what their relationship is with us, how solid their alliance is with us. if you have denmark, these scandinavian countries have to worry about russia, incursions from russia. we're bringing in sweden and others to nato right now. there are geopolitical implications. if you're in denmark, and panama, you have to take this serious apply. if you're in america, do you have to take it seriously? probably not. if i was the democrats, my advice to them going forward is two-fold, one, focus on the things that trump does that actually hurt people. that's probably going to be the number one plank but if there are opportunities to reach people, reach lower info voters, with some of the silly stuff, they should choose their spots and do it. donald trump did better with people who don't watch news shows, and you know what information trickles down to people who don't watch news shows? dumb stuff like invading

greenland. it's easy to dismiss it, if there are ways to demonstrate donald trump's weakness and failure to people who don't watch news shows by engaging in the silly stuff strategically, i think it's okay to do. >> trump literally says jump and congressional republicans say how high. dusty johnson who's a congressman has introduced a bill this morning that would authorize trump to purchase the panama canal. it is a joke until it is now something that you need to debate on the floor of the house. there's your opportunity, is it not, to shine a light, and say this is the absurdity he's focus focused on as one of the biggest cities in america is burning. >> i thought this was an america first movement. this is the narrative that has to come into place. ostensibly, in election was about grocery prices, people suffering from inflation. let me tell you, none of the plans donald trump has put forth have done anything to deal with that. obviously invading greenland and

panama is not going to do that. mass deportations is going to be inflationary, huge extending tax cuts for rich people is going to be inflationary. they have offered no plans in dealing with costs and with the things that essentially justified his win in the eyes of some of these voters. i do think it's okay for democrats to sometimes say hey, look, this is what he's promised you, and this is what he's doing instead. >> tim miller, thank you for joining me. hang if nor both ends of this program. you're the best. we'll be right back. re the best. we'll be right back. i heard someone is playing a stegosaurus in her school play! ♪♪ still taking yours? everyday! nature made. made with quality. made to care for you, every day. with over 50 years of expertise behind every bottle. nature made, the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand.

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