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the days long nightmare playing out in california, catastrophic wildfires still tearing through tens of thousands of acres of los angeles, leaving pieces of people's everyday lives obliterated. we'll have a live report from pacific palisades and the big red flag, when firefighters can expect to get some relief from what officials call the perfect storm that's been fueling those flames. plus, donald trump's final days as a, quote, ordinary citizen. in just ten days, he enters the white house as a convicted felon. we'll talk to a lawyer who was inside the courtroom for this morning's sentencing. and a despicable charade. those are donald trump's words, vowing to challenge his conviction with a message to his supporters that the fight isn't over. our nbc news reporters are following all of the latest developments. we begin with nbc's steve patterson in pacific palisades, where crews have now contained 8% of the fire there. what's the scene where you are today, steve? what are you seeing and hearing?

>> yeah. chris. 8% by. but by no means is this over. in fact, you may be able to see. over my left shoulder there is a brand new plume of smoke in a canyon. we're in pacific palisades. you might be able to see the devastation in the foreground. in the background, though, that is thick, black smoke billowing out. we know there are a couple new fires in the city of los angeles that are burning right now, unrelated to sort of this situation here. of course, they're all related because of this wind event, because of the embers, because of the perimeter that firefighters are trying to put around these very large fires still burning. and it gives you a sense that this is still very much an active fire scene, despite the level of devastation. you might think there's nothing left to burn. what we've seen spot fires the last few days and pretty much all day long, even in wreckage that you're seeing behind me. homes devastated, really down to the studs. cars melted into the pavement. it is just unbelievable, the level of devastation here. and we're

learning about just how many structures may be damaged or devastated. upwards of nine, eight, nine, 10,000. the number of dead has risen. the death toll is. investigators are now able to get into scenes like this, but really, the story still remains the active firefight. 8%, as you mentioned on this fire, the fire has 3% containment, but containment doesn't tell the whole story because new fires can sprout up at any time. what really does is the wind activity. we have gotten some good news that that is supposed to lay down a little bit later on this afternoon. i can still feel a breeze and even a slight breeze, maybe a strong breeze in a canyon that is higher up, so it may stoke the flames here. the hope is that as these red flag winds start to die down, firefighters get a handle on this over the next 48 hours or so before the next red flag warning, which is set to be as early as next week. >> chris. steve patterson, thank you. well, despite what we're hearing about those whipping santa ana winds dying down a bit

today, red flag warnings are indeed still up for 17 million people across southern california. nbc meteorologist bill karins is here with us. bill, what conditions are firefighters confronting? >> it depends where they are. >> you know, the topography around los angeles is so diverse. you know, if you're in downtown la, there's like no wind. >> if you're up in the hills, there are some gusty winds we're dealing with. and you saw the pictures there. we still have spot fires that are happening. >> the difference now is that we can get the aircraft into these. >> you know, when we had the horrific windstorm in the middle of the night when we lost all these thousands of structures, you know, they had no chance because they couldn't fly. it was too windy. that's not the case now. so the 17 million people at risk. and what you can see here is that we have isolated spots. that is windy. notice the top of mount wilson is only at ten miles per hour. that's near the eden fire. but as we come over here, as we head towards the palisades fire and then north towards the kenneth fire, this area is still gusting here to 41, 23, 27. that's still challenging for firefighters. yes, the fixed wing aircraft and

the helicopters can put water on any new blazes. the forecast for the winds by 6 p.m. come down over these areas. so that's why we're thinking that once we get through this afternoon into this evening, then they're really going to get a jump on any of these hotspots. hopefully they can put out all of the areas where the new flames are. and even on the fire in the palisades fire, they can hopefully put out hotspots with the helicopters and the air drops. so for today, we have elevated risk of fire critical risk to the south here. we haven't had many fires outside of san diego, but their fire risk has been very high also. but this is what everyone's talking about. so high pressure when we get this over the four corners region. that's kind of the issue when we get the santa ana winds that leaves. but as we head towards next week, another huge area of high pressure slides in that's going to funnel the winds once again in the downsloping effect. and all the mountains in the west towards the coast is going to create the santa ana winds. chris, right now we're thinking it could be anywhere between 50 to 70 mile per hour gusts. the last event was 80 to 100, to put it in perspective. so not as bad, but it gets to the point where it

could be strong enough that those fixed wing aircraft can't fly. and then you get issues, without a doubt. >> bill karins, thank you for that update. let's go to new york now, where this morning, president elect donald trump was sentenced to a penalty free unconditional discharge. that was his sentence for his hush money convictions. nbc's lisa rubin was in the courtroom for us. give us a sense of what it was like in there, lisa, and walk us through judge marchand's decision. >> well, chris, it was totally surreal to be there because many people, me included, anticipated that this day would never come, particularly after donald trump won reelection to the presidency in november with 312 electoral votes. a fact that he reminded judge of when he had the opportunity to speak. but in terms of imposing the sentence of unconditional discharge, which mershone did today, that's a sentence that carries no penalty associated with it whatsoever. no fine, no jail time, not even community service or probation. judge merchan said that, look, the situation presented a number of aggravating factors, including

the willfulness of donald trump's conduct and its seriousness, as well as his lack of remorse and his deliberate endangerment of the judge, the prosecutors and their families. but still, he said, the most important factor of all were the constitutional protections that are that a president is entitled to. and given that while he said very clearly that's not a mitigating factor, ordinary citizens in this country made the decision to return trump to office, and therefore, he had to take that into account that in the best interest of our country and the presidency, honoring those protections and not having a potential sentence hang over donald trump's future was important. he has now made that sentence and that conviction final with that unconditional discharge, leaving trump free to exercise his appellate options, which chris, he said today he would indeed do. >> lisa rubin, thank you. in fact, president trump has made it clear he will appeal his conviction, insisting there was never a case to begin with. nbc's gary grumbach is following

this for us. what more are you hearing about donald trump's plans for an appeal? >> hey there chris. yeah, donald trump is sure to appeal this verdict just because of the delay, delay, delay tactics that we have seen with him in all of his legal dealings. but in new york state, he has to finish the sentence. he has to be sentenced in order to appeal. that's how it works in new york state courts. and that's what you heard the supreme court say last night, saying it wouldn't be too much of a burden for you to sit virtually from mar-a-lago in florida and sit there for the sentencing so that you can move on with the sentence. once you do get that unconditional discharge. now, trump wrote in a truth social post just after the sentencing was imposed this morning, saying, quote, there is no case. there never was a case. and this whole scam fully deserves to be dismissed. but as you remember, chris, we never saw donald trump on the stand during this trial. so hearing him today in court was the very first time in this setting that we got to hear his take on this. here's part of what he said.

>> falsification of business records, as they say, it was falling a legal expense in the books where everybody could see them, a legal expense, in other words, that legal fees or legal expense were put down as legal expense by accountants. they weren't put down by me, they were put down by accountants. i didn't call them construction concrete work. i didn't call them electrical work. i didn't call them anything. they called a legal fee or a legal expense, a legal expense. and for this i got indicted. it's incredible actually. >> now, chris, donald trump does not have a great track record when it comes to appeals in the new york state court system. the appellate division has denied the sentencing delay this week denied the appeal of his gag order back during the trial, and denied an attempt to delay his trial entirely back earlier this year. but when that appeal does come from trump's team, it's going to come likely from todd blanche, who, if confirmed by the united states senate, will be the us's next deputy attorney general. >> chris gary grumbach. you

cannot make this stuff up. everything about this case has been unprecedented. thank you. coming up in 90s, our own katy tur joins us from the ruins in pacific palisades. but first, jacob soboroff finding one of the few houses of worship still standing there. >> look at this. this is the ash that came through the door. yeah, i believe it is the only one on the left. >> i'm so glad you're. >> knowing what happened outside of these walls. and seeing even just this piece is the remnants of the palisades right here. of the palisades right here. wo covid-19? i'm not waiting. if it's covid, paxlovid. paxlovid is an oral treatment for adults... with mild-to- moderate covid-19 and a high-risk factor for it becoming severe.

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your daughter. >> can i hear it? >> can i hear your call? >> because i don't believe it. >> governor, please tell me. >> tell me, what are you going to do with the president right now? >> we're getting we're getting the resources to help rebuild. >> why is there no water in the hydrants, governor? >> it's all literally. >> is it going to be different next time? >> it has to be. >> has to be, of course. what are you going to do? i'm doing the hydrants. >> i would fill them up personally. you know that. >> let's bring in my msnbc colleague katy tur. there was nothing about that that was surprising. it was heartbreaking. yeah, but it wasn't surprising. the level of frustration is so high. i know that you've had some opportunities to talk to some folks, and i wonder what you're hearing over these last several hours. >> yeah, i will tell you, there is a lot of anger. and it's a lot of it is stuff that you're seeing online that is coming into the real world. i've got friends who are really, really upset at the mayor and at the water situation talking about

the same thing that woman was talking about the hydrants being empty. the city has tried to address this. saying it again was a pressure issue. but this this one point is something that is really it is a it is an angry point of contention among people who lived here in the palisades that i that i know well, they are really upset about it. and it's being drummed up as well by rick caruso, who ran for mayor against, against bass. and he, you know, he's trying to use this to say that she wasn't she wasn't there for the city. she wasn't prepared for this. everybody knew that there was going to be a fire. they knew the conditions. the conditions could result in a really big fire, that she wasn't there for the city of los angeles. and that is resonating with folks here. i'm on sunset right now, chris. i know you've driven the street. it was it was lined with homes. there's nothing left. i mean, that's the true of

everything. there's nothing left any longer. we have seen power crews. we've seen water crews, we've seen tree removal crews for the first time today, which means that they are going to start the process of trying to clear some of this. there are a few huge sycamore trees, a lot of them, actually, but a few that that burnt and fell down and were blocking roadways. and you, you saw that the fire department had to cut through them to get to make those roadways passable again. it's just it's as i keep saying, it's just so hard to put into words the anger and the and the devastation, the loss. i feel bad for that woman. i feel bad for her child, which is not going to have a school to go to. the schools here have been either heavily damaged or destroyed. corpus christi over there, one of the catholic private school is gone. it's just it's just right behind us or right behind my cameraman. andy. all you can see is just

the steel beam at the top. and what sort of looks like a, you know, bigger, a big ish weathervane. saint matthew's has been heavily damaged. the elementary, heavily damaged palisades high school, heavily damaged. marquez, i believe, has been pretty damaged as well. i ran into a woman yesterday who was able to get through and through the barriers, and she wanted to check out her house, a house that she just got an order. and i saw her as she discovered it. and here's here's what she told me. >> we just moved in. >> two days before the fire. like, we had everything that, like, perfectly placed, like like every the most i've ever been moved into a house in my life. >> this is my dream house. >> do you know what you're going to do now?

>> that was maura. she's got a nine year old and a six year old, and that is the question. do you know what you're going to do now? and the answer, broadly speaking, is no. right now, people are in hotels around the city. they are in shelters around the city. they are staying with other friends. if they're lucky enough, they're staying in another house. they have maybe in the desert. but the question of what are they going to do now is one that they're just beginning to sort through because they're, you know, they don't have clothes. maybe they have a suitcase if they're lucky, they don't have clothes, they don't have a place to send their kids to school. they don't they don't have shelter. they don't have a long term plan. one of my best friends growing up, i was talking to him, and he's trying to find he was telling me how he was trying to find a month to month rental in the marina, looking at schools, what schools are good around there, you know, that's that's the questions that are being asked among friends. do you know a good school district that i could try to get

into? is there, you know, a place with a nursery school? do you know where i might be able to find some size six month baby clothes? it's all those just everyday pressing questions that that start to pile up. and that's how you get through it. you start answering the most immediate needs. where am i going to get shelter? where am i going to get food? where am i going to get clothing? and then what am i going to do with my kids? okay. and then the insurance adjuster is going to come. how do i deal with the insurance adjuster? what do i need in, you know, in my back pocket to, to fight that? and then how do i find more long term housing? and do i settle somewhere, somewhere else and build a new life there, or do i try to rebuild here? these are all all there are questions that are immediate that can get answered quickly. and there are questions that are long term that will take a while to sort through. >> it's bad. where am i going to work? because there are a lot of small businesses there and people may get unemployment insurance, but that is only so much and it only lasts so long, and then it will take a very

long time. if those businesses even choose to rebuild. katy tur, thank you for that. great reporting. i want to bring in california state senator sasha rene perez, who represents pasadena senator. your own family had to evacuate. so let me ask you first and foremost, how are you all doing? >> you know, my family is safe, and that's what's most important right now. >> i think my cousin's home where he was staying. and fortunately, it's pretty unlikely that it is still there because it was at the entrance to the eaton canyon trail. i think my family's homes that are located over in sierra madre should be okay. i haven't had an opportunity to go look and check, but this is really not a safe time for people to be going and checking on their homes. so, you know, we can't verify whether or not their belongings are okay, but, you know, they're safe. and that is what is important. >> talk to me about the conversations you're having with your constituents. you probably just heard our correspondent katy tur, who grew up there and knows a lot of folks there and asking the question, what do we

do now? are there any answers? >> you know, i think first and foremost, i want to encourage and emphasize to people that this is still an active fire. i met with cal fire this morning. we have containment only at 3%, so it is not safe for people to return to their homes at this time. and i want to make that very clear, so that people are not trying to come back when we are still in danger of fires. in addition to that, while you're sitting and holding tight, you know, making sure that you are beginning to have conversations with your insurance company for those that need help in person with navigating insurance, we are going to be having an insurance workshop with the insurance commissioner right here at pasadena city college on january 25th and january 26th. that will be free and open to the public. experts will be there to help guide them, and we're also telling people to begin doing their fema

application. you will want to go to government assistance dot dot gov to start receiving that assistance that is so critical right now is that we log in to those websites. we begin doing those applications. this is going to be so important for people to get started with those fema applications. >> i know as a state senator, and you're right in the thick of this right now. so the immediate needs are are certainly most on your mind and keeping you busy. but i wonder if you're hopeful about the incoming trump administration. will they work to regulate the insurance industry, to make sure people in high risk areas can get coverage? are you hearing those questions from folks? i did hear one of the folks, our correspondent interviewed who said, i don't know if i'll be able to get insurance going forward. so i don't even know if it makes sense to rebuild. >> you know, i, i can't speak to what the incoming trump

administration has in mind in terms of regulating, you know, the insurance industry. i can tell you here in california that those are conversations that, you know, we're having right now. if this is something that the incoming president is interested in partnering in, he will certainly find a partner in me. he will certainly find a partner in california if he is serious about assisting our residents and those who have lost everything as a result of this fire, i will tell you that my constituents are very nervous about what the incoming trump administration may do, especially given some of the recent executive orders that the biden administration has signed to provide aid to california. and unfortunately, you know, we have seen that aid be politicized. this is a time period where, you know, these fires have impacted everyone, regardless of party, regardless of gender, of, you know, of income. you, you, this, this fire does not care. and people have lost their homes. and so i

really want to emphasize that to this incoming administration that people need help. and that is what is most important. that is our job as government leaders is to make sure that we are helping people and understandable. >> play. california state senator sasha renee perez i'm glad to hear that you and your family are all well, and i wish you luck going forward. i know you are going to have a lot of work to do with your constituents. thank you for being on the program. >> yeah, thank you so much. >> and still to come today, donald trump became the first former president sentenced for a felony, and his expected appeal could set up another legal showdown unlike anything we've ever seen. you're watching chris ever seen. you're watching chris jansing reports only on msnbc. upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature.

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your funds as soon as the same day your loan is on deck. >> push through. >> i want our viewers to feel like i'm their voice. >> suddenly they change the rules. >> the way we approach the show, the questions we ask are the same things you are asking your friends and family. but the

question on everyone's mind tonight is we need the answers. and i think our audience does too. >> here at home tonight, news of every imaginable shape and size, a lot of the big news in the country and in the world right now is still developing tonight. now is the time. >> so we're going to do it. settle in. >> i have a story to tell you. >> watch this space. for the first time in u.s. history, a sitting president will be both a convicted felon and likely be in an active legal fight to appeal that conviction. at a sentencing hearing today, donald trump swore he would appeal and said the voters are on his side. >> it's been a political witch hunt. it was done to damage my reputation so that i would lose the election. and obviously that didn't work and the people of our country got to see this firsthand because they watched the case in your courtroom. they got to see this firsthand. and

then they voted, and i won and got the largest number of votes by far, of any republican candidate in history and won, as you know, all seven swing states won conclusively, all seven swing states and won the popularity, the popular vote by millions and millions of votes. and they've been watching your trial. so they understood it. >> i want to bring in chuck rosenberg, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst. duncan levin is a criminal defense attorney and former manhattan prosecutor. good to be back with you guys. so, chuck, donald trump has 30 days to appeal, but in about ten days, he's going to be president of the united states once again. what is this even going to look like? >> well, in some ways, it's going to look like most appeals. look, chris, i mean, you have 30 days to note your appeal and then you appeal in this case to the appellate division in new york state and ultimately to the new york court of appeals. what does it look like? i think he

has some issues to raise. i don't know conclusively that he wins. i don't know conclusively that he loses. i think there's there are several non-frivolous claims he could bring. >> and by the way, what's his strongest claim? what's his strongest point of appeal? >> so i think judge merchan tried a pretty clean case. i don't know that there was that was infected with error because of rulings that the judge made. but remember, the ground shifted under the judge's feet just a few months after the trial concluded, because the supreme court issued an immunity ruling, a broad one that gives mr. trump to answer your question, a number of footholds. for instance, he could argue that some of the evidence adduced at trial would be impermissible under that immunity ruling. no fault of judge merchan. again, the ruling came down after the trial, but i think it gives mr. trump an argument or two. and by the way, based on the composition of the supreme court, there are almost certainly a number of votes for mr. trump's view of the world, that the immunity conferred on

him is broad and introduced error into the underlying trial. not, not i'm not saying it's going to get overturned. i'm saying he has nonfrivolous arguments. >> duncan, i wonder what kind of accommodations might have to be made because he's the president we saw during the lead up to this, after donald trump said he was running for president, what, almost 18 months, i think, before the actual election that he used that to say, listen, i have to run for president. how might the fact that he is a sitting president impact the appeal? or again, will it not at all. >> well, a lot of the judges are going to issue rulings that say, this is the same ruling we would give to anybody. >> and judge marchant said that at sentencing today, he said you're he tried to separate donald trump, the person from donald trump, the occupant of the presidency. but the appeal is going to happen. like any other appeal. he has the same rights, he has the same deadlines, but he obviously has a lot of sway over some of the judges who sit on the federal

bench as well. and so on top of all of the new york jurors, jurists who are going to look at this, he's going to try to get this into federal court and back before the united states supreme court. and there is a doctrine called the doctrine of habeas corpus, which allows the federal courts to basically look at state court and review them. and that's what he's basically going to try to get them to do as quickly as possible, exhaust all of his appeals in the state, and get over to his more friendlier turf in the united states supreme court. and there the fact that he's president, united states is going to have a lot of sway, obviously. >> and donald trump was not he did not have to be in the courtroom. can we go back to that picture? because if we see donald trump in the video feed, what we also see is the guy sitting next to him. and i want to get both of your takes on this. todd blanche is his lawyer, but he's also donald trump's choice to be the second highest ranking official in the department of justice. again, going to the point that we've never seen this kind of thing

before. but can he still be he can't be part of the appeal, can he? >> well, if mr. blanche becomes the deputy attorney general of the united states, it's the second highest ranking official. essentially, the chief operating officer. no, i mean, he would. first of all, i don't see how he could possibly continue to be mr. trump's personal lawyer. second, i think a number of recusal issues would pop up for mr. blanche, right. depending on the issues that come before the department of justice during mr. trump's second term, i could imagine, at least in a more normal environment, that he would have to recuse because of the work he did as a private attorney in private practice. >> yeah. and i also wonder, duncan, about just the influence. right. we touched on it. but the influence that this president has had going so far as to make a phone call to a supreme court justice one day ahead of the appeal that was

filed. >> he's long tried to make the department of justice not independent, but actually an arm of his own office to try to make it something where their personal lawyers to him. you saw that during the mueller investigation, you saw that we ever seen a personal lawyer for an incoming president of the united states get appointed to a high position at doj? i don't i can't speak to it historically except to say that. and it's not to say mr. blanch is not qualified. he was a federal prosecutor before that. so it's not that he lacks the qualifications, it's just that it calls into question the integrity and fairness that he brings to that position. and it's a totally cynical choice for somebody to run that office. and so i think you're going to see a lot of issues dealing with recusal and fairness stemming from all of this. he's going to, as a matter of professional responsibility, separate himself entirely from anything to do with this investigation, this prosecution. but there are so many ways in which the

department of justice now is going to interact with the presidency. and in that position, it's going to be very difficult for him to really unravel himself from that. >> we're out of time. but can i ask you a really quick question, because we've heard some calls for recusal, for example, justice alito, in cases before the supreme court, can someone who who would say, for example, in a particular case that todd blanch should recuse himself? >> well, in the first instance, it would be todd blanch, right? todd blanch is obligation. if a conflict arises, is to step aside, either because there's an actual conflict, let's say a familial or financial conflict, or because there's a perception of a conflict. and so that falls to the official to recognize the problem. now, there are plenty of people at the department of justice, chris, who can give you advice on this. if you're wondering whether or not you ought to recuse. and senior officials take advantage of that all the time, but it's your obligation. >> okay. chuck rosenberg, duncan levin, good to see you both again. thank you for coming in and coming up. it's now in the

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as soon as the same day your loan is on deck. >> tiktok's fate in the united states is now in the hands of the supreme court, which today heard arguments on whether to block a bill banning that massively popular social media platform over concerns china

could use it to influence u.s. politics. analysts say it appears likely that the high court will uphold that ban, essentially forcing tiktok to go dark. but attorneys for the company say that would deprive the app's 170 million american users of their right to free speech. >> for years, the chinese government has sought to build detailed profiles about americans where we live and work, who our friends and coworkers are, what our interests are, and what our vices are. tiktok's immense data set would give the prc a powerful tool for harassment, recruitment and espionage. >> the act directly restricts the rights, the first amendment rights of american creators to participate and speak. >> and with a court a little less than a decade ago called the modern public square. >> and what you might say today is the most vibrant speech forum in the united states. >> i want to bring in one of the co-sponsors of that bill, congressman raja krishnamoorthi, a democrat of illinois. it's good to have you here. so what

do you see as the real and present danger? and i don't know if you had a chance to listen to the supreme court arguments, but do you think that the prosecutors made a strong case? >> i think that the government made a very strong case. and i think it's going to get upheld, mainly because a majority of the justices believe that the rationale, the underlying rationale for the law, which is to protect the data security of americans from access by the chinese communist party, was a valid one. >> this is not a ban. this is a divestiture law. >> and bytedance should now sell tiktok. >> there are active suitors. they need to pick up the phone, sell it, and so that tiktok can continue to flourish and survive. >> what about this argument, though, that users have a right to participate in what the supreme court itself has called the modern public square, and that shutting down this enormously popular platform denies them that right. understanding that there is an alternative which is to sell it.

>> yeah, absolutely. people have the right, their first amendment right to participate and to express themselves. i think that the kind of counter interest here is that there's no first amendment right for anybody to harm our national security. we know on multiple occasions, as the d.c. circuit court of appeals repeatedly said, the ccp, the chinese communist party has stolen tens of millions of americans records, whether it was through the anthem hack, the equifax hack, or the hack of the office of personnel management. this is a loaded gun in terms of their access to millions of tiktok users personal data. we don't need to wait for a smoking gun and a dead body for congress to act. and that's what it did. >> you have a little more knowledge, i think, than most about these issues, because you are a lawyer as well. i think you went harvard law, so there's that. so i want to ask you about

something else in the courts today, and that is president elect donald trump. he's a convicted felon, but there is no jail time. there is no fine. he won't face any further penalty. and i wonder what you make of that. and if it sends a signal about the criminal justice system, it does. >> it's dissatisfying. on the one hand, for others who convict, who are convicted of similar felonies, chris, as you know, they were sentenced to jail time. and so it's unfair that he would get a much more preferential sentence compared to them. on the other hand, the mere conviction and sentencing of him to some people is punishment. grave punishment to his reputation. and that's in part why he was so unhappy and why he's appealing right now. >> congressman raja krishnamoorthi from illinois, thank you so much. have a good weekend. >> thank you chris. >> and still to come on, chris jansing reports the price of the disaster unfolding in los angeles, looking to be one of the costliest in california history, with a fallout

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billions of dollars, as claims mount. >> insurance in california is horrifying. >> it really is horrifying. it's like the amount of mental exhaustion that one has to go through to, to, to do anything. i mean, i was calling people literally every day. it was like part of my job. >> are you worried as you rebuild that you won't be able to get insurance anymore? >> yeah. >> it's difficult. >> it's where do you even start? >> and the wall street journal makes this clear. this isn't just a california problem. you may live hundreds or thousands of miles away, but the wildfires tearing across los angeles and other natural disasters stand to raise your home insurance bill. let's bring in nbc news senior business correspondent christine romans. and amy bach is executive director of united policyholders, a california based nonprofit consumer group. thank you both for being here, christine. i know you've been looking into the estimated

economic damage of these fires. what can you tell us? well, the numbers will be big. i mean, 20 billion, this first estimate that's just insured losses. there will be tens of billions of other damages that won't be covered by any kind of insurance. >> and already there was an insurance crisis in california. and here you look, over the last decade, some $70 billion in insured losses. and chris moody's says that of every dollar in premiums that the insurance companies collected to cover those properties, they had to pay out $1.08 in in damages. >> so you can see that unsustainable math just doesn't work. >> and it's one of the reasons why climate change and extreme weather is raising insurance premiums for everyone across the country. >> so, amy, this morning, california's insurance commissioner talked about what is being done to protect homeowners. and i want to play that. >> i am using my moratorium power to stop all non-renewals and cancellations. last night, i issued a bulletin to protect homeowners affected by the palisades and eaton fires from

non-renewals and cancellations by your insurance companies for one year. i'm also calling on insurance companies to suspend any pending non-renewals and cancellations that homeowners received before these fires started. >> i mean, we look the difficulty that people have faced, even getting or keeping insurance, but now there's going to be another issue about claims and will they be paid and so on. what are you seeing and what is your advice to people at this point? >> so obviously, this is just a devastating tragedy for the people who are being impacted, but it's also is going to be a setback for the efforts that my organization, commissioner lara. >> we work very closely together and stakeholders across the state have been working so hard to solve this crisis, to bring insurers back, you know, bring competition back, try to bring, you know, the rate breaks that come when insurers compete. so

this is a huge setback, you know, but for the people who are impacted, my organization's roadmap to recovery resources are available. we're going to be down there. we're going to be offering free clinics. we have all kinds of, you know, guidance because this is not the first time that we've had a wildfire of this size in california. we've had many of them. so we know how to do this. the numbers are big. i think we'll be able to get through it. but the future of the insurance industry, you know, does remain in the up in the air. >> well, let's talk about the long term because it is a business. right. what needs to happen to make sure that insurance companies are willing to offer protection, especially in areas whether it's california or florida, any place that has, you know, natural disasters on a somewhat regular basis, that they can actually get insured. >> well, we're going to have to tame the reinsurance beast. okay. reinsurance is the super high level protection that insurers buy. it's an unregulated market. so a lot of

what's driving the availability crisis has been reinsurers can raise their rates as much as they want, whatever the market will bear. that causes insurance companies to have to charge their customers more. so what we are interested in doing is to provide some sort of government backstop, sort of a loan guarantee fund that either at the federal level or multi-state compacts, so that insurers don't just have to be at the mercy of reinsurers in terms of, you know, what, they have to charge their customers. obviously, the burden of climate change has to be spread equally. we can't just let insurers continue to protect themselves and leave their customers exposed. >> christine, last minute, i want to ask you about the iconic business, the entertainment business in california. and they've had a whole series of things happen. and i know that there is concern, and i'm reading about the concern within the industry about whether or not people will be concerned about having productions. >> their entertainment. put los

angeles on the map. and now here you've had covid and you had a writers strike, and now you have this terrible, terrible event here. the major studios are all still intact, but you've seen the award shows and productions have been paused. we know that. they just announced ten major new productions at the end of last year that were set to get started here. so this will this will be a test, a real test of the very industry that made l.a. famous around the world. wildfires and climate change. and this climate disaster definitely will be the latest test to that. >> christine. romans, amy bach, amy. good luck to you. thank you so much, both of you, for being here on this friday. and that's going to do it for us this hour. please join us for chris jansing reports every weekday from 1 to 3 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. and our coverage continues with katy tur reports conyour best defense againstrts liverosion and cavities is strong enamel. nothing beats it. i recommend pronamel active shield because it actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a game changer for my patients.

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loan is on deck. >> stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the msnbc daily newsletter. each morning, you'll get analysis by experts you trust. video

highlights from your favorite shows i do think it's worth being very clear eyed, very realistic about what's going on here. previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves, all sent directly to your inbox each morning. get the best of msnbc all in one place. sign up for msnbc daily at msnbc. com. >> good to be with you. i'm katie tur, live from the palisades, where multiple wildfires across los angeles county are still burning. at this hour. at least ten people are now dead, though the true death toll at this hour is not yet known. almost 200,000 people have fled their homes in the handful of areas where evacuation evacuation orders have lifted. people are returning to not much. no homes, no neighborhoods, no community. the largest fire is still the