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>> hi there everyone. 4:00 in new york to understand the import and the stakes of what happened on capitol hill today, and to understand how it shows us exactly how donald trump, in his second term as president, has given up on even pretending to want to govern. we begin with a moment from exactly eight years ago. here's a snippet from the confirmation hearing of donald trump's first defense secretary general, jim mattis. >> i'll join my colleagues in thanking you for your service. you've spent your entire life in service to the country keeping us safe. and we all know the most important function of federal government is to keep its citizens safe at all times. and you've done that with honor and with integrity. so thank you on behalf of a grateful nation. >> if you end up in this job,

our national security may well depend in part on your willingness to voice your opinions, even when others disagree, even when you are under pressure to remain silent. we are counting on you. >> i believe that your appreciation for the costs of war in blood, treasure and lives and the impact on veterans afterward will enable you to be a check on rash and potentially ill considered use of military force by a president elect who perhaps lacks that same appreciation. and so i think you will have a critical role as secretary of defense in providing a check on that kind of action. >> so all those comments made to jim mattis, jim mattis would go on to be confirmed by the united

states senate, 98 to 1. a celebrated and politically uncontroversial pick by any ideological standard, donald trump at the time was proud to stand with him and to have nominated him. he made the announcement to great fanfare at a rally in december 2016. >> one of our great, great generals, we are going to appoint mad dog mattis as our secretary of defense. >> mad dog. he's great. he is great. >> i asked one of the generals, i love the generals and i won't use his name, but he probably would come forward. >> but i said to him, you're a good general. >> yes, sir, i am. >> i said, so how do you compare to general mattis? how do you compare to mad dog, sir? he's

better than i am. >> caliber. the character, the reputation of general jim mattis mattered to trump. and you heard the crowd roar. it's important to know where we've been, to understand where we are. vital context for what happened today at the confirmation hearing for a very different person, a man named pete hegseth, who went before the senate armed services committee today, fox news weekend host pete hegseth, to put it mildly, is no jim mattis. no, not even by trump standards. if anything, the through line of trump's picks to lead the pentagon from general jim mattis to mark esper to pete hegseth represents and perfectly encapsulates the complete erosion of standards that, ironically, pete hegseth likes to complain about. except hegseth attributes an erosion of

standards to women women who serve their country with honor, women who go toe to toe with any man serving in the us military. here's senator tim kaine questioning pete hegseth on his past. >> you cheated on the mother of that child. less than two months after that daughter was born, didn't you? >> those were false charges. >> well, not fully investigated. >> and i was completely cleared. and i am so grateful for the marriage i have to this. you've admitted me. >> you've admitted that you had sex at that hotel on october 2017. you said it was consensual. isn't that correct? >> anything. >> you've admitted that it was consensual and you were still married and you just had a child by another woman. again, how do you explain your judgment? these false charges against me? >> you know, i investigated, and i was completely clear. you. >> we'll stop here for a second. now, here are the facts. prosecutors declined to charge pete hegseth with rape after

monterey police investigated an accusation that he had raped a woman while at a conference in 2017. the fact fact pattern is not the same thing as what pete hegseth says there. here's more from senator tim kaine's questioning of him. >> the incident in monterey led to a criminal charge, a criminal investigation, a private settlement, and a cash payment to the woman who filed the complaint. and there was also a nondisclosure agreement. correct? >> it was a confidential, confidential settlement agreement off of a nuisance lawsuit. right. >> during an interview, you claim that you settled the matter because you were worried that if it became public, it might hurt your career. do you maintain that you were blackmailed? >> senator, i maintain that false claims were made against me. >> but you didn't reveal any of this to president trump or the transition team, as they were considering you to be nominated for secretary of defense. you didn't. you didn't reveal the action. you didn't reveal the criminal complaint. you didn't reveal the criminal

investigation. you didn't reveal the settlement. you didn't reveal the cash payment. why didn't you inform the commander in chief of the transition team of this very relevant event? >> senator, i've appreciated every part of the process with the transition team. they have been open and honest with me. we've had great conversations between the two of us, and i appreciate the opportunity that president elect trump. >> but you chose not to reveal this, right, because you knew it would hurt your chances. so you chose not to reveal this really important thing to the commander in chief of the transition team, because you were worried about your chances, rather than trying to be candid with the future president of the united states, many of your work colleagues have said that you show up for work under the influence of alcohol or drunk. i know you've denied that, but you would agree with me, right? that if that was the case, that would be disqualifying for somebody to be secretary of defense. >> senator, those are all anonymous false claims. >> and the totality, they're not they're not anonymous letters on the record here. >> they're not anonymous on the

record. we've seen records with names attached to them concern vets for america and fox news. >> one of your one of your colleagues working hard every day on behalf. one of your colleagues said that you got drunk at an event at a bar and chanted kill all muslims. another colleague, not anonymous. we have this, said that you took coworkers to a strip club. you were drunk. you tried to dance with strippers. you had to be held off the stage and one of your employees, in that event filed a sexual harassment charge as a result of it. now, i know you denied these things, but isn't that the kind of behavior that, if true, would be disqualifying for somebody to be secretary of defense? >> again, elections have consequences. trump won this one. this isn't about the election, right? this is about the distance donald trump has traveled from general jim mattis to that guy who smirk, does all the talking. now, trump's

nominee to be defense secretary was confronted by questions of character and fitness, but they were posed by only one only one of the country's two political parties. and that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles is here. also joining us, former democratic senator and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskill is here with me at the table, former republican congressman. msnbc political analyst david jolly is here. and the host of the independent americans podcast, founder and ceo of independent veterans of america, paul rieckhoff, joins us as well. paul, what did active duty military think of jim mattis? >> he was a god. >> i mean, they called him saint mattis. >> they were shrines to mattis in marine corps barracks all around the world. >> and he was held up, you know, as our generation's patton in many ways, in part because he embodied the ethos and the values of the military loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal

courage. >> we all know them. and mattis embodied all that. what you saw today is someone who violates all those values. and i think what you saw today is the first major battle in trump's culture war. and that's a culture war. we've talked about it over the last couple of months. pete hegseth is an effective culture warrior, and he brought that war to this confirmation hearing today. and we didn't talk about iran or about nuke policy or about, you know, carrier strike groups. we talked about whether or not he can be trusted to get drunk on the job or not, and whether or not he lied to his family and to potentially to trump. and i think this is a new low. this is our new normal. but i also think the democrats failed to score any knockout blows. they beat him up a little bit. cain was effective. gillibrand was effective. but a lot of it missed. and right now hegseth is in good standing. but we've got a couple of days left. and i think in 2025 we have to be ready for anything to come out because the fbi report was not comprehensive, didn't talk to his two ex-wives, didn't talk to his accuser. and i think now comes that moment where there's kind of a race between the vote

and whether or not anything else or anyone else will come out. >> is it sustainable, though, to have only one party care? >> no, no. and this is the most important position, in my view, in the cabinet. and that's why trump is leading with it. he knows that if he can take the pentagon and he can shift culture there, and he can block the guardrails and put his loyalists in, then everything else becomes easy. so it's obviously a defining point for the republicans and for the democrats. but i think for kind of two years, we've been holding our eath on both of them, and both of them have failed. so this is a true crisis for our democracy and most urgently, for our national security. >> i mean, because i take your point about about the performance of the democrats today, but our system isn't set up for only the democratic party to care about who leads the united states military. >> i agree, but who are we holding out hope for here? i mean, markwayne mullin is not going to be the guy. tom cotton's not going to be the person. i do think that there's still a chance that joni, ernst and murkowski and collins are keeping their powder dry. they're waiting to see if someone will come forward, if someone will come out publicly.

i almost thought kaine was going to present something after that. it felt like he was leading up to something new, but they don't have anything new. but i do think that hegseth was also, in part, chosen to set the tone. trump wants to show that he's going to try to run the table. he's going to push the democrats, he's going to own the narrative. and this on this battle, at least i think the democrats have lost. >> elissa slotkin, ryan nobles had some important facts that she was able to develop. and those facts would would include an answer from hegseth on whether he would carry out an illegal order, on whether he would use the military as a law enforcement body. talk about why there wasn't a bipartisan reaction or follow up, at least visible to anyone viewing all this on television. >> well, part of it was probably because hegseth was so evasive when it came to that line of questioning, and slotkin wasn't the only one who pressed him on this idea of whether or not he would stand up to donald trump if he asked him to do something that was outside of the bounds of american law or outside the

bounds of the geneva convention or beyond. he just attributed them to hypothetical situations, and that he wasn't going to answer a question based on a hypothetical situation. what was clear today in the way that this hearing played itself out, was that you had two camps in the direction as to where they thought this confirmation process should go. republicans were solidly in the bank for hegseth, and democrats were solidly doing whatever they could to try and prevent his nomination from going forward. so you were not going to see any republican on this panel, given the fact that there was a degree of skepticism around his nomination, do anything to suggest that his nomination wasn't a done deal. and so they had a script that they were working from. the democrats had a script that they were working from. they were not going to do anything outside the bounds of that script. and i and i thought the questioning from joni ernst was most demonstrative of that. they, you know, she had a very specific set of things that she was going to ask him about. they weren't necessarily all that

challenging because republicans believe that he has the votes now. they are not willing to expend their political capital on this particular nominee. the question is, are there any political capital, is there any political capital that they're willing to spend on any of the remaining nominees? or as matt gaetz, the only sacrificial lamb in this confirmation process, because donald trump has certainly put up a number of nominees that, under normal circumstances, would have a very difficult time getting confirmed. but these are far from normal circumstances. and trump believes that he's governing with a mandate. and his fellow republicans in the senate believe him when he says that. >> i guess. let me press you then a little. ryan, are you saying, are you able to report that his confirmation is a foregone conclusion? >> i wouldn't go so far to say that it's a foregone conclusion, but i would say at this point, nicole, that i would be very surprised if he were not to win confirmation. and i'm hearing that from both republicans and democrats. the sense that i got leading up to this hearing was that this was the democrats last

opportunity to try and muddy the waters a little bit and try and win over those skeptical republicans. and the sense i'm getting coming out of this hearing was that that goal was not accomplished. you know, i think it's important for people to keep in mind when they watch these hearings that it is a relatively narrow audience that needs to be convinced one way or another. this wasn't a hearing for the american people. this was a hearing that was really for about maybe 6 to 8 senate republicans. that may not be completely convinced that pete hegseth has what it takes to become the next republican, to represent the department of defense, to be the secretary of defense. and it's important to keep in mind, it's not even that they might not privately think that he's up to the job, but the question is whether or not they can feel comfortable enough politically to take that risk of voting yes for him versus the political risks that would come in voting no. when donald trump has made it clear that this is a priority. when conservative

influencers have gone on the internet and warned. >> let me stop you. let me stop you. let me stop you. >> let me stop. >> i understand the veracity of your reporting, but i completely disagree with it. this was exactly about communicating with an audience that only includes the american people. and what you're describing is everything that's broken that the democrats failed to convince 6 to 8 republicans of what? that he's a drunk. that he is accused of rape. let me just play what senator mark kelly confronted hegseth with on his behavior at the nonprofit he ran. >> i'm going to go through a few of them, and i just want you to tell me if these are true or false. very simple. a memorial day 2014 at a cva event in virginia. you needed to be carried out of the event for being intoxicated. >> senator. anonymous smears. >> just true or false? very

simple. summer of 2014. in cleveland. drunk in public with the cva team. >> anonymous smears. >> i'm just asking for true or false questions. true or false answers. an event in north carolina drunk in front of three young female staff members. after you had instituted a no alcohol policy and then reversed it. true or false? anonymous smears december of 2014 at the cva christmas party at the grand hyatt at washington, d.c, you were noticeably intoxicated and had to be carried up to your room. is that true or false? >> anonymous smears. >> another time, a cva staffer stated that you passed out in the back of a party bus. is that true or false? >> anonymous smears. >> in 2014, while in louisiana on official business for cva, did you take your staff, including young female staff members, to a strip club?

>> absolutely not. anonymous smears. >> let me ask you if i have about a 90s left here. if you had to answer these questions about sexual assault against you and your drinking and your personal conduct, would it have been different if this if you were under oath? >> senator, all i'm pointing out is the false claims against me. >> okay, i take it you do not want to answer that question. >> anonymous first name, last name smears was really busy today. my point, ryan nobles, is, is not to quibble with your reporting, which is in a league of its own in terms of its quality and its trustworthiness. but to ask you, if you saw anything that should go beyond the broken nature of the fact that democrats may or may not have failed, in your words, to convince 6 to 8 republicans that this person blaming again anonymous smears for his own conduct, as described to folks like yourself, journalists by

countless people who were mostly republicans and conservatives and people that work with him and for him was enough to change anything in that building you're standing in. >> yeah, well, the first thing i would say is that's not my assessment to make. i'm not someone that has a vote when it comes to this, but i'm telling you, the reality of the situation as it currently exists. and the simple fact is that there just has not been a groundswell from the republicans in the senate to be willing to stand up and buck donald trump when it comes to something as crucial to this and his administration, trump has made it very clear that he will seek retribution for people that are not willing to go along with the goals that he has for his upcoming administration. and that message has been made very clear to the republicans in the senate that they need to get on board with what his goals are, and part of his goals are installing someone like pete hegseth as the secretary of defense. and a compelling case can be made as to why he's not

up for the job. there's no doubt about that. but there's just nothing that i have seen that makes me think that there are four republicans, because that's what it would take right now, who would not only be willing to vote no, but also be willing to stand alone, separate from the other 46 members or 40, you know, two members of their caucus who are voting yes and are standing with donald trump. they just do not view the political costs associated with that worth a no vote at this particular time. now, that could change in the next, you know, two weeks or however when his vote actually makes it to the senate floor. but there's been a whole lot that's been out there on pete hegseth over the past couple of months. just a bevy of information and accusations against him. and it hasn't been enough yet to turn the tide against him. so you would be hard pressed to come up with a way, absent one of these accusers coming forward and

tearfully telling their story. i just don't see how republicans are going to change their mind. at least that small group of republicans that are going to decide whether or not he's the next secretary of defense. he doesn't need a single democrat to get over the finish line, and he doesn't need all of the republicans. and that's just the reality of the situation on capitol hill right now. >> right now. thank you for bringing to life both the situation on capitol hill and the political undercurrents. i appreciate you letting us press you and understand that fully. everyone else sticks around. we'll bring claire and david in on this after a very short break. also ahead for us, special counsel jack smith has laid out in black and white the decisions he made in charging donald trump with crimes for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. he lost in that now publicly released report, jack smith says that if it weren't for the 2024 election, he would not have dropped the criminal case against trump, and the ex-president would have certainly been convicted at trial. we'll dive into the facts that we're learning more about

today from that, including the special counsel called trump's desire for political violence. we'll get reaction from someone on the front lines of that violence on the receiving end of it, actually, former police officer michael fanone, who was nearly killed by the mob of trump supporters during the january 6th insurrection. all those stories and more when deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> this tiny home trend. not for me. now this is more like it. the same goes for my footwork. so i went hands free with wide fit skechers slip ins. just step fit skechers slip ins. just step in and go without bending an alternative to pills, voltaren is a clinically proven arthritis pain relief gel, which penetrates deep to target the source of pain with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medicine directly at the source. voltaren, the joy of movement. today, i chooseth how to screeneth for colon cancer! here on my land, not theirs. give me cologuard®, or give me—

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out of my studio. >> turn the cameras back on. three. two, one. >> there's a hostage situation in the olympic village. >> september 5th. rated r for plant based, healthy blood pressure support. there's one brand at walmart that stands above the rest. it's super beats. discover why more cardiologists recommend super beats for heart health support than any other beat brand at super beats. com the second inauguration of donald trump morning joe kicks off coverage. then at 10 a.m, rachel maddow and team will bring you key moments of the day, followed by analysis from our prime time anchors as the new term begins monday, beginning at six on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> your predecessor in a trump administration, secretary esper, was asked and did use uniformed military to clear unarmed protesters. he was given the order to potentially shoot at them. helos flew low in

washington, dc as crowd control. he later apologized publicly for those actions. was he right or wrong to apologize? senator? >> i was there on the ground and i saw the i saw i understand and i respect that i've been there. >> you're about the level of stress involved in that moment. was he right to so he was legality and the constitution. was he right or wrong to apologize? >> i'm not going to put words in the mouth of secretary esper or anybody else. >> he said them himself. you don't have to. what are you scared of? did he do the right thing by apologizing? >> i'm not scared of anything, senator. say yes or no. you can say no. the laws and the constitution. okay. in any particular donald trump. >> claire mccaskill. that was senator elissa slotkin, who had an incredible line of questioning there that probably taught us the most about what if ryan nobles reporting is accurate, someone who is about to be confirmed because no one in the republican party is

troubled, and i guess four of them would have to be by his standing as someone accused of sexual assault and someone accused by his fox news colleagues as being drunk before his on air obligations as a morning show anchor. but elissa slotkin, i think, illuminated a lot of his views and positions on the kinds of orders that donald trump has said he plans to issue. your thoughts on that line of questioning? >> well, she was a rock star today, and i think she's going to be a tremendous addition to the united states senate and the armed services committee. but what's really amazing about this, nicole, is how ironic this hearing was, because they tried to trot out a narrative that somehow he was coming along to clean up politics at the pentagon. and i want you to know, the tape you showed at the beginning of the segment from the confirmation hearing of mattis, i was there, i was

asking questions. i was one of those 98 votes for jim mattis back in 2019, after 2017, after he won. this committee has been an oasis of bipartisanship. this committee, when we would have markups, you could never tell by looking at the votes who was d and who was r, because it would be all over the place. it would be about the issues. it would be about policy. it would be about weapons systems and whether or not there should be oversight in certain areas or not. it was never about political party. and what this trump administration has done. they had made this all about party. never before in the history of our country has a secretary of defense nominee refused to meet with the democratic members of the committee. i mean, that's that's unheard of. i mean, you talk about wanting to make the pentagon political. that's how

you make the pentagon political. and what pete hegseth doesn't fully understand is the military is divided just like our country. and if they want to drive a wedge in the military, they're about to do it because they're not only saying that that women are not competent, even though they sign up to lose their lives for our country. they're saying that other people aren't competent. they're saying all the current generals are woke and everybody's liberal, which couldn't be further from the truth. if you spend a dime's worth of time at the pentagon, you know that is no liberal bastion. i can assure you. i spent a lot of time there, and that is not the case. so they have turned this in to the most political confirmation of a secretary of defense in the history of our country. and that is bad news for national security. >> claire, let me show you what another one of your former colleagues, senator elizabeth warren, confronted him with today.

>> these are your words from ten weeks ago. women absolutely straight up should not be permitted to serve in combat. and i notice on each of these quotes, those are said without qualification. it's not by how much you can lift or how fast you can run. they don't belong in combat, period. or your words straight up. and then on november 9th, 2024, just 32 days after your last public comment saying that women absolutely should not be in combat, you declared that, quote, some of our greatest warriors are women, and you support having them serve in combat. now that is a very, very big about face in a very, very short period of time. so help me understand, mr. hegseth, what extraordinary

event happened in that 32 day period that made you change the core values you had expressed for the preceding 12 years? now, i've heard of deathbed conversions, but this is the first time i've heard of a nomination conversion. and i hope you understand that many women serving in the military right now might think that if you can convert so rapidly, your long held and aggressively pursued views in just 32 days, that 32 days after you get confirmed, maybe you'll just reverse those views and go back to the old guy who said, straight up women do not belong in combat. >> claire. >> yeah, and this is where he had to get joni ernst. i mean,

let's just break this down. joni ernst served for decades. she knows women's capabilities. she knows how she was treated. and she and i have had long conversations about it in the military. as a woman who rose through the ranks and had position of authority and leadership, and so he wasn't going to get through if he kept the view that he clearly held. so he changed it. on the charm offensive for joni ernst joni ernst was key. it appears to me that she's folded. it appears to me she's going to overlook this. and here's what everybody needs to understand. pete hegseth is who you think he is. but that's what donald trump wants. donald trump tried a man that was competent with dirt on his boots. how dare him intimate that somebody like jim mattis has not been in combat or lloyd austin has not been in combat? how dare he intimate that? but they were competent and they

were in command. they were respected by the people that they were going to serve with. but donald trump doesn't want any of that. he only wants loyalty to him. and if you noticed every time he was asked to, would he stand up to donald trump? he folded like a cheap shotgun. i mean, he absolutely is not going to stand up to donald trump. and that's why he's there. he will not stand up to him. and i hope that at least other people around donald trump can convince him not to go down a path of abusing the constitution and violating the law when it comes to using our military in ways that the founding fathers never, ever would have dreamt of. >> david jolly, let's. i accept all of the reporting and all the political analysis about what happens next, but let's just refuse to let republicans off the hook for their buffoonery. instead of pretending that they were greenlighting and without any pushback or question or interest in the fbi report, some

incapable, they asked him how many push ups he did, and they and they coached him to talk about his children. they act like they were sort of green slime coated at a disco party, riding down the slip and slide. not like they were us senators. >> that's so important. that's so important. framing. so it does feel now, like hegseth sails through his confirmation, which is a remarkable turn from four weeks ago when the trump camp was floating out. three alternative names because donald trump thought he was losing. and he doesn't like losers, but he also doesn't like to lose. and so once they realize that hegseth is the guy, republicans have circled the wagon around trump's nominee. but here's why he sails through. it goes to exactly your framing. we have spent today at a at a senate confirmation hearing, watching democrats try to disqualify nominee hegseth. we have yet to see republicans try to say why he's qualified and the presumption here, this is not a burden of proof in a criminal trial where you're presumed to be qualified unless you're proven unqualified or

disqualified. no, you have to prove your qualifications to the united states senate. and republicans are not asking hegseth to prove his qualifications. the only organization he has run is a koch brothers funded veterans organization. that's at the root of all of the scandals that have have lit up kind of these derivative claims against pete hegseth. nothing qualifies him to run a near trillion dollar department responsible for our national security. and i think in that lies the real danger of the second trump term. we started talking about mattis at the beginning of the hour. what is true about mattis and true now about hegseth is donald trump wants somebody from central casting. and central casting in 2016 was mad dog mattis, this marine, gritty, strong general that looked like he was out of central casting. and in the other cabinet post, tillerson and others, these billionaires, these executives that have run major organizations, the problem with all of them in 16 is they respected the constitution. and in 2024, central casting is somebody that's a fox news

saturday morning host that doesn't care about the constitution. it doesn't have to be qualified. but central casting is they look the part and they can speak trumpism and this, this kind of paper dragon strength with nothing underneath. but republicans today are allowing that nominee ultimately to pass through. >> i want to add to our conversation, democratic congressman jason crow of colorado. he's a former army ranger who had three combat tours in iraq and afghanistan. congressman, your thoughts? >> well, claire and david have really hit the mark here. i mean, the incompetence is the point. donald trump is not looking for somebody who can do the job. he's not looking for somebody who will do right by our men and women in the military. he's looking for somebody who will do exactly what he tells him to do. and there's no more surefire way of getting somebody who will be loyal than to appoint somebody who never would have got the job had it not been for donald trump appointing them into that position. right. we would not be talking about pete. pete hegseth, had it not been for donald trump, because the man

not only doesn't have the experience, but has repeatedly disqualified himself through alcohol abuse allegations, through allegations of abuse of women. you know, i have his book here. we don't have to guess what he thinks. he tells us very clearly what he thinks, page after page after page of this book maligns women and says that they are unqualified to serve in our military. it is really beyond the pale. and it's because donald trump only wants loyalty. >> congressman. he's accused of rape who was investigated by the monterey, california police department. donald trump was found liable for sexual assault. his first pick to lead doj was investigated for child sex trafficking. tell me what you believe the fbi to have been looking into when it comes to pete hegseth, what was what's your understanding of what was investigated? >> well, that's part of the problem is we don't have a firm grasp of what's been investigated. there appears to

be have been a lack of transparency in this process. i'm obviously not a member of the senate, so i haven't been in any of the closed door briefings. the senate hopefully has received. but how these nominees, many of them not just pete hegseth, but many of them are being pushed through without the proper due diligence, without the proper security clearances in our most critical national security positions, whether it's the director of the national intelligence, whether it's the director of the fbi, whether it's the secretary of defense, you know, every american should be worried about this. we are in a dangerous time. it's a dangerous world. we have adversaries attacking us all of the time. you know, cyber attacks, attacks on our troops around the world. this is real stuff. we are not playing games here, and they are pushing people through who are not competent. >> i would like to ask you more about what happened in today's confirmation hearings. i'd also like to ask you about the other big story we're covering today, and that is the public release

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election in order to retain power. trump also attempted to use the power and authority of the u.s. government in furtherance of his scheme. smith also refutes the idea that the dismissal of the criminal charges against trump has anything to do with the strength of the case against him writing this quote. but for trump's election and imminent return to the presidency, the office assessed that the admissible evidence was sufficient to obtain and sustain a conviction at trial. jack smith highlights the next president of the united states embrace an enthusiasm of violence. writing this quote, he resorted to threats and encouragement of violence against his perceived opponents. jack smith notes that trump does not deny any of the report. quote, trump has not contested a single factual representation in the report, instead objecting only to its public release. we're back with congressman crow. it is perhaps that line that is the most important moving forward that donald trump doesn't object to any factual

element of the special counsel investigation into his efforts to stay in power. in fact, he thinks his election in 2024 justifies them. i wonder what, in your view, that means as a party in the minority? should pardons come to pass for the most violent insurrectionists next monday? >> well, it means a couple of things for me. the first thing it means is that the history here tells the story of our future and what we're going to have to deal with. this is donald trump's pattern and practice, right? he has a long history of disregarding the law, disregarding the constitution, disregarding our courts, and putting people's lives at risk to advance his own political interests. he's done it over and over and over again. so we have to be vigilant. and as a member of congress, i will i will do that. i will do everything necessary to uphold the guardrails of our constitution, our rule of law and our court system, because that is what my

constituents that is what americans deserve. and the second thing is, is donald trump continues to surround himself with people who will do whatever he asks him to do not fulfill their oath, not fulfill their obligations to the constitution, but to do what he wants him to do. loyalists. we just talked about pete hegseth a minute ago. that's also a very dangerous dynamic right now as we head into his presidency. >> why do you think they are more loyal to him than the constitution? >> well, i think this goes to the nature of the people that he's decided to select with, with some exceptions. by the way, there are some people who are competent, some people who i've worked with, who i think could do a good job even though i disagree with them. but by and large, the vast majority of these people are people who never would be in the running for these positions. and you get people who are loyal to you by appointing people who would never otherwise be in these positions. if it not if it weren't for donald trump appointing them. you know, that

is a surefire way, again, of getting their complete loyalty. and he has done that over and over again in so many instances, it's hard to count. >> it's so fascinating for a party so obsessed with how people gain access to opportunity. you're exactly correct about where the pool of people comes from. and we look at all the reporting about litmus tests at the nsc and other places. it's a really important frame as we move into the coming days. i appreciate you waiting for us to get through some of our other breaking news, and for taking the time to talk to us. we're going to continue to call on you. congressman. thank you. >> thank you. >> and, paul, let me come back to you on this idea of trump's attraction to people who are more loyal to him than the constitution and those peoples, then debt of gratitude to him as a result. >> this is how you run the game. this is how you run things. >> it's not a game. >> no, but this is what he's doing. this is his strategy. >> this is how you get people. it's with power and profit. and

some of them maybe consider it principle. but this is how he's building and executing his strategy. and this is exactly what is what he's going to have people who are loyal to him over the constitution like to do whatever he wants. and right now, it's a culture war that's going to remove, you know, women from combat roles and kick trans people out of the military and bust up the swamp and all the other things we hear about all the time. but it's rolling. and i think the question now for the democrats and for all americans is, okay, here's another report. what are you going to do about it? what's the strategy? what's the strategy for the tulsi gabbard hearing? what's the strategy for the kash patel hearing or what's your strategy? i don't have one, but i'm not, you know, in the senate and i'm not running for president, but i don't want to see them get rolled in every single hearing, which is what it looks like it's going to happen if they continue to perform like they did today. i think the democrats did not perform, but what performance? >> i mean, if you take ryan nobles reporting that they're all afraid of retribution, and congressman crow's analysis that he's he's preselected people more loyal to him than the constitution. what could the democrats possibly put on in

terms of a performance that would shake anybody out of that sleep walking? >> well, i don't think that they have strong candidates, as we saw in the last election. and that's why you have somebody now like jon tester is gone and you see the contrast, right? you've got markwayne mullin, you've got this new generation that's in there. and for some of the democrats, they've still got the older generation and they haven't upgraded. and i think they miss an opportunity with somebody like ruben gallego who could be on that committee instead of angus king. right. and you've got other people that just aren't scoring blows on people like hegseth. so hegseth was built for this moment. he is a culture warrior. he's detestable, he's slimy, he's sneaky, but he's good at it. and the democrats are going to have to find some people who are also good at it to combat him. otherwise they're just going to continue to get rolled. >> claire mccaskill, your thoughts? >> yeah, i mean, i get what he's saying, but it's i can assure you it's harder than it looks, especially when you have someone who has been highly rehearsed and is a communicator. by

occupation. i mean, this is not your average nominee in terms of his ability to communicate. i do think that there will be other opportunities. and some of the democrats did a great job today, some not so good, but some did a great job. really, what we should be talking about is not how well the democrats did, but the ultimate failure of the republicans. because i'm going to tell you one thing that i dare any republican to say i'm wrong about. if this same man was nominated by a democratic president elect, not one republican would vote for him, not one. they would spend all their time talking about his moral failures, his character failures, his lack of lack of experience, his incompetence. so once again, it just shows how incredibly partizan donald trump is willing to make our government in order to get the kind of results he's looking for, which in many instances are going to walk the line of the constitution. and, i predict,

boldly go over the line of the constitution. >> so that's where i want to go next with all of you. what happens next? what does he ask pete hegseth to do? first, i have to sneak in another break. we'll be right back and have that conversation. >> i just hope that republicans take care with what they're inheriting. >> the fallout from meta ceo mark zuckerberg's decision to end fact checking. >> what's your message to concerned voters about where the country may be headed after the biden administration leaves biden administration leaves actually behind closed with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles to help me out. splurgy tina loves a hotel near rodeo drive. oh tina! wild tina booked a farm stay to ride this horse.

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attracted to now. sure. what are your thoughts? >> i think what we're seeing in hegseth is an example of someone, unlike mattis, kelly and others who will be unwilling to push back on donald trump at pivotal moments. we saw today if esper said no to shooting people in the streets. what hegseth do it on questions related to the pacific rim or troops in syria, where perhaps mattis, kelly and others had some type of influence on donald trump. it appears hegseth will roll over. i think the bigger picture for a lot of americans over the next four years, you can bring in the jack smith report into this as well. we now know donald trump laid the predicate of the big lie. he invited people to d.c, he sent them to the capitol. he's guilty in the minds of millions of americans. his cabinet picks will be unqualified. donald trump will be a danger to national security. the inauguration is next week. and as we see democratic senators try to push back, i don't think what we saw among democratic activists in november was defeat. i think it's just fatigue. and i think you're going to see some hard wrestling with this question or the statement that donald trump's not my president. and i

know that conjures up some hard, patriotic, patriotic questions. and i don't mean to do that, but what i mean by that is donald trump is somebody who broke his oath to us. why should he expect our oath to be given to him when we have seen his willingness to break the constitution, to try to conspire to defraud the american people, to cheat and to pervert the american spirit and american ideals. we're seeing this in the jack smith report today in writing. we're seeing this in the united states senate today. there will be millions, tens of millions of americans next week on inauguration day that says that say, that's not my president. and i think that's a hard conversation to have, but an important one for the next four years. >> what is it about a democratic defeat that seems to break the spirit of the democratic pro-democracy coalition, whereas a trump defeat seemed to fortify the will to fight? >> well, i think we talked about this right after the election. millions of democratic activists

and those who have opposed trump know that winning doesn't mean he's right. and so, you know, in your loss that you're still right. but but it puts you in the desert a little bit. winning is unifying. if democrats had won, they'd be unified. right now. perhaps they're not. that's okay. there's a there's a rebuild process. republicans have unified around the wrong leader and a dangerous leader. and those who lost the election haven't lost the fight. and they know that their job for the next four years is to call out this leader as being wrong. wrong for the direction of the country, wrong for the constitution, wrong for the american ideals and the american spirit. this notion of donald trump not being your president eight years ago sounded unpatriotic, but i don't think it sounds unpatriotic next week for a lot of people. >> we'll continue to call on all of you. claire mccaskill, david jolly, paul rieckhoff, thank you for spending the hour with us. up next, we'll have much more on special counsel jack smith's report. retired d.c. officer michael fanone is our guest. next on what jack smith calls

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1-800-290-7477 now or visit us at gofundme.com. >> thursday. president biden sits down with lawrence o'donnell in the final exclusive oval office interview of his presidency. they'll discuss his achievements, his legacy and what's ahead for the country. the last word thursday at ten on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> do you know how it feels to have the president of the united states target you, the president of the united states is supposed to represent every american, not to target one. >> hi again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. a stunning piece in the puzzle that was donald trump's big lie about the 2020 election. was doing just

that, targeting everyday americans who would not go along with his lies that he hadn't actually lost the 2020 election. the threats and intimidation felt by those like georgia election worker ruby freeman, who stood up simply for the truth and did their jobs and would not bend to the wishes of a sore loser. in his newly released report, a report. keep in mind donald trump tried desperately to keep from ever seeing the light of day. special counsel jack smith writes this quote there is unquestionably a public interest in ensuring that elected officials and election workers can carry out their duties without fear of threats and retaliation. accordingly, the need to promote this federal interest weighed in favor of proceeding against trump. while the fear and anger trump was stoking reached a boiling point on january 6th, when trump supporters took what they had been hearing and acted upon it, storming the u.s. capitol with

the intent of keeping their guy, donald trump, in power. the violence naturally turned to those who were trying to protect the capitol. what was happening in front of it and inside of it? the law enforcement officers there that day. from jack smith's report, quote, a metropolitan police department commander recounted that the scene was a nonstop barrage of just strikes with weapons and things being thrown and pepper spray and you name it, everything being hurled at these officers, you could hear them yelling, you could hear them, you could hear the screams and the moans and everything else. multiple officers stated that they feared for their lives when among the rioters that day, one mpd officer put that fear at, quote, 100% from the moment he entered the crowd, and he explained that he thought he might die. quote, you know, you're getting pushed. kicked. you know, people are throwing metal bats at you and all that stuff. i was like, yeah, this is

effing it. a us capitol police officer similarly recalled thinking, quote, i think i might die today. smith also points out that the evidence he gathered, quote, established that the violence was foreseeable to donald trump, that he, donald trump, caused it, that it was beneficial to his donald trump's plan to interfere with the certification, and that when it occurred, he made a conscious choice not to stop it and instead to leverage it for more delay. take a listen. >> we fight. >> we fight like hell. and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. for trump. >> fight for trump. fight for trump. >> mike pence i hope you're going to stand up for the good of our constitution and for the good of our country. >> and if you're not, i'm going to be very disappointed in you.

>> mike pence and mike pence won by sending a message to the senators and the congressman. we won by sending a message to pence that if they don't do as they are, as it is their oath to do, if they don't uphold the constitution, then we will remove them from office one way or another, one way or another. >> it's where we start today with former dc metropolitan police officer michael fanone, who was one of the brave officers who defended the us capitol, from trump supporters who rioted on january 6th. he's also the author of hold the line. the insurrection and one cop's battle for america's soul. with me at the table is former assistant u.s. attorney and president of the leadership conference on civil and human rights, maya wiley. michael, i just wanted to hear you talk today. i wanted to hear your voice on this moment in american politics. >> yeah, i appreciate that. i really don't have much to say.

>> i feel like i've said everything that i can. i warned the american people about donald trump's conduct. i do agree with the grand jurors, the panel of grand jurors that indicted mr. trump for his conduct and sought accountability. but i also agree with jack smith's conclusion from his report that ultimately it was it was the american people, those that voted for trump who were responsible for denying justice. for those of us that were victimized by his criminal conduct. >> what do you think it is about the insurrection? something that happened on live tv, something that by the end looked like a tailgate. his supporters stayed out on the steps of the u.s. capitol for hours. what do you think it is about that day that is even a candidate to be whitewashed in the minds of donald trump's base of voters?

>> i mean, i, i think it speaks to who we are as a, as americans at this point in the game. i believe that, you know, most americans see january 6th for what it was or what it is. >> they just don't care. it didn't affect them directly. >> and so in an act of self-centeredness and cowardice, they continue to support donald trump. i think those are really the defining characteristics of trump supporters. >> you know, you've got your crazies out there, but ultimately you have people that fail to empathize with with those of us who were victims of his, you know, criminal conduct. >> i mean, can you just talk a little bit about how it could happen to anybody? i mean, i don't i don't i don't know your

personal politics, but i know that a lot of folks who were there holding the line that day hail from all across the ideological spectrum. some of them voted for trump, some of them voted for biden. but they all stood there and protect the capitol from trump supporters who were wielding bats and stun guns and other weapons. i mean, what is it about finding yourself on the other end of trump that then becomes a fabrication in the mind of one of the two parties? >> well, i mean, let me remind people, i voted for trump in 2016. >> i was very much in the in the mindset that you had one political party that was supporting law enforcement and another political party that was anti-law enforcement. and so that's why i supported trump. i think many of my colleagues in the police department felt similarly. that being said, my

politics played no part in my decision to respond to the insurrection at the capitol on january 6th, just like they never played a part in anything that i did as a law enforcement officer. i very much believe in the separation of law enforcement in this country and politics, despite, unfortunately, it not being the reality. but for those of us that were there fighting trump supporters inspired by his lies and his violent rhetoric, we were there to protect ourselves and our fellow officers. and ultimately, those of us that chose to speak out and testify about our account and what we experienced at the capitol on january 6th, you know, who have been targeted by trump himself

and by his supporters. and that continues to this day. >> you know, i spoke in a previous interview about, you know, unfortunately, my mother has suffered at the hands of these maga lunatics. >> simply because her son continues to tell the truth about his experiences. on january 6th. i mean, her house has been swatted. she had an individual throw a brick at her house just a little over a month ago in the middle of the night. and i guess, you know, most egregious of all. while she was out raking leaves, not so long ago, an individual pulled up and threw a bag of on her while she was in her front yard. what kind of savage animal behaves like that? but this is the. this is

the ideology of the trump maga wing of the republican party. anyone that speaks out is a traitor and the enemy of america. and so, unfortunately, if you choose a path similar to mine or anyone else who has spoken out, that's, you know, that's what what you have in store for you and the american people as a whole. don't give a. they just don't care. and this is, you know, this is a time for action. i don't want your thoughts and prayers. my mother doesn't want your thoughts and prayers. >> i'm so sorry that that happened to your mother. i was swatted and my first thought was about. obviously, what i do is public, but. but no one in my

family is public. and she's lucky to have you for a son. you can tell her how to communicate with law enforcement. but i think some of it is that the people who speak out, a lot of us have been swatted and have had family members swatted. if they can't find us or if they want to continue to harass us and think we might be on to them. but there's this asymmetry, and i've been covering the trump story for nine years. and what i find most stunning is that people that vote for trump in 16 and 20. are are eligible to be called traitors. i mean, liz cheney voted for him. you know, eight weeks before the insurrection voted for him is 16 and 20. but he would like to see her tried in a military tribunal. talk about what it says, not just about the country, but about republicans who cower at the fear of retribution and refuse to do the right thing, not just

by by all americans who they take an oath to defend, but by their own voters. people like yourself and liz cheney. >> i mean, if it wasn't so dangerous and, you know, the cost wasn't so high personally, to so many of us, it would be laughable. i mean, i find it funny that, you know, the party of masculinity is so subservient to a man that i mean, quite frankly, let's just be honest, doesn't exude any masculine characteristics, at least not to me. but, you know, they do it for their own personal reasons, whether it's, you know, they think that they can make money off of this moment in history or they think that, you know, they might have some type of career benefit from cozying up to

donald trump. >> what are you talking about? the hair tape doesn't do it for you. let's talk about masculinity and all that is toxic. i mean, donald trump has pledged to pardon the insurrectionists. d.o.j. current and former officials have made clear that there's no one, at least, that's been sentenced to wasn't violent. so donald trump is talking about pardoning violent criminals who beat up in in in many instances, law enforcement officers. what what do you think about that? >> well, i think first, it's important for the american people to understand if they haven't been paying attention, that, you know, many, many, many of these individuals, i think more than 500 were tried or pled guilty to crimes involving assaults on law enforcement

officers. and so, i mean, i've seen attempts by donald trump and some of his supporters to try to rewrite this narrative that, you know, these individuals were defending themselves. we'll take my situation, if you will, as an example. you know, when i was pulled from that police line, i was no longer a threat to any of these individuals. and i was certainly not an impediment. they could have easily bypassed me, but they chose to restrain me and beat me over and over and over again. and not just 1 or 2 individuals. but now i believe we have, you know, six who've been charged that were identified, five of whom have pled guilty. and so, i don't know how you reconcile that with trump's account of things. you know, these individuals were the instigators. they were violent,

their intentions were clear, and law enforcement's job was to quell that violence. and we did so the best that we could. being outnumbered as much as we were and using the utmost of restraint. >> i want to read something that the judge in one of those cases said about the individual who carried out some of those acts. this is from nbc's reporting, quote, a donald trump supporter who drove a stun gun into the neck of a washington police officer shouted, quote, trump won after he was sentenced to 12.5 years in prison. daniel d.o.j. rodriguez pleaded guilty in february to felony conspiracy, obstruction of an official proceeding, tampering with documents or proceedings, and inflicting bodily injury on officers using a deadly or dangerous weapon. u.s. district judge amy berman jackson imposed rodriguez's 151 month sentence,

saying he was a, quote, one man army of hate, attacking police officers and destroying property on january 6th. rodriguez was responsible for his own behavior. even if trump had been making, quote, irresponsible and knowingly false claims that the election had been stolen, she said. part of pledging to pardon people like that. and we'll find out next week if that particular individual is who trump's talking about when he calls the insurrectionists, patriots and fighters. is dismantling the entire system of the rule of law. and i wonder, as a law enforcement officer, what what that looks like in the country, if the judges who describe these defendants found guilty by by jurors as, quote, one man armies of hate attacking police officers and destroying property. if the system they preside over is undone by a swipe of a pen from a president, what does the country look like?

>> i mean, it looks exactly like where we are today. i mean, ultimately, what we're talking about here is a justice system in which, you know, donald trump. has said that essentially, if you are with me and you commit acts of violence on my behalf, you will not be held to account by our criminal justice system. that's what these pardons say. it's as simple as that. and again, you know, i think it's important that we remind the american people that donald trump has been saying this and that it has been a part of his political platform since day one, when he announced his candidacy in waco, texas. he has promised to pardon the jan six criminals. and so this is what trump supporters

voted for. whether advertently or inadvertently or intentionally. every american that supported donald trump owns these pardons. >> retired metropolitan police officer michael fanone. it's an honor to speak to you today. thank you for starting us off. thank you. when we come back, maya will join the conversation, as well as congresswoman zoe lofgren, a member of the january 6th select committee. our coverage of the overnight release of jack smith's special counsel report into how donald trump worked to overthrow and steal the 2020 election, continues after a short break. also ahead for us. we'll head out west to those devastating wildfires still raging in southern california. how the return of high winds is hampering efforts by firefighters to control the deadly blazes that have already led to 24 people losing their lives. they have displaced more than 100,000 others. deadline white house continues after a

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prize picks app today at your $5 and get $50 instantly prize picks. run your game. >> stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the msnbc daily newsletter. each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows, previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves. sign up for msnbc daily at msnbc. com. >> joining our coverage, democratic congresswoman zoe lofgren of california, a former member of the house january 6th select committee, thank you for joining us today. that so we've had so many conversations about the extraordinary work of the congressional committee. did you learn anything in the release of the jack smith report that you didn't know already? >> well, there are a few details that we didn't have. >> the communication between jeffrey clark and scott perry and some other things, but i think mainly it was what we

already knew, which the committee had found through our diligent work that trump committed crimes. that's why we referred him unanimously to the department of justice for prosecution. i think one interesting thing in the report is not just the findings, but going through some of the challenges to digging up the evidence. >> and what caught my eye was the section on the intimidation and harassment of witnesses. so trump is not only a criminal, he's also a thug. >> i want to read some of the tiktok on mike pence. i know that this was covered extensively and drawn out dramatically in the public hearings, but just to be reminded, again, not just of trump's treatment of law enforcement, but trump's treatment of his own vice president. this is in the report released last night, quote, when the angry crowd advanced on the

capitol building and breached it around 2:13 p.m, forcing the senate to recess, several of trump's advisers rushed to the dining room and told him that a riot had started at the capitol, and that rioters were in the building. over the course of the afternoon, they forcefully urged trump to issue calming messages to his supporters. trump resisted repeatedly, remarking that the people at the capitol were angry because the election had been stolen. just before. 2:24 p.m, the news channel playing on the television in the dining room where trump was sitting, aired an interview with an individual marching from the ellipse to the capitol, who expressed his anger at pence and stated, quote, but i still believe president trump has something else left. end quote. at 2:24 p.m, sitting alone, trump issued a tweet attacking pence and fueling the riot. quote, mike pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our country and our constitution, giving states a chance to certify a corrected set of facts, not the fraudulent or

inaccurate ones which they were asked to previously certify. usa demands the truth. one minute later, the us secret service was forced to evacuate pence to a secure location at the capitol. when an adviser at the white house learned this, he rushed to the dining room and informed trump, who replied, so what? it seems to confirm and deepen our understanding of his direct interest in threatening mike pence. >> well, his interest was in overturning the election, and mike pence was only a tool in accomplishing that. he was willing to do anything to incite violence, to inflict harm on his vice president as a threat to him, to make him be his tool, his instrument in overturning the election. and remember, even after the riot had been put down, they were still calling senators trying to overturn the

election. so this is a shameful chapter in american history. i'm sorry that this did not result in a trial, but mr. smith is right. once trump was reelected as president, you can't proceed with a prosecution under the rules. and but at least this information is out and will be part of history and hopefully will help in avoiding a recurrence of that kind of activity in future years. >> what does it say? i just asked officer fanone this question, but what does it say about the country that the people who need protecting are the people who brought these facts and this information to the country? and if you're offered protection in the form of a pardon, would you take it? >> well, i haven't talked to the white house. i haven't sought a pardon, but whatever president biden decides is wise, i'll respect. i mean, we did nothing wrong. in fact, we did the first act of righteousness, which was

to uncover this wide ranging plot with trump at the center of it. you know, the president could decide that even though what we did was righteous, he wants to prevent harassment, not just of the committee, which were fully protected under the speech or debate clause, but also the witnesses and others. i trust president biden's judgment on this, whatever he decides is fine with me. >> maya, what would you advise president biden to do in terms of pardons for people involved in this investigation? >> it's a it's a hard question. and the reason it's a hard question is because on one level, it is clear donald trump has made it clear that he's going to weaponize government, weaponize the department of justice to use against anyone he perceives as enemies. and that includes the january 6th committee. and it does not matter that they were simply doing their jobs and jobs protected by the constitution.

at the same time, i really agree with and think it's so important that members of the committee have been regularly saying we did nothing wrong. where and how do we as a country, not be deeply concerned that we're even having this conversation when sitting members of congress from both parties engage in an investigation about the safety and sanctity of our elections and the way a person in power behaves and whether or not that person, the president, is responsible. that's how the constitution is constructed. and so to even have to have it as a conversation is concerning because to the point and, you know, officer fanone story about his mother is what is so concerning here because it is the fact that it is average people who feel empowered to

threaten, harass, and harm regular people that we have to be concerned about. and i would say this, the thing that concerns me the most and the thing i am most concerned about for this country, is that we have politicians who know trump was wrong, understand exactly what he was doing, and still stood up to protect him, to advance the lies, and then to tell the american people that it didn't matter how they voted, because they shouldn't believe their lying eyes. >> it's a remarkable commentary on where we stand today. six days ahead of his second inauguration. congresswoman, i'll give you a quick last word. >> well, i many people in this country are disappointed that there is a person who's apparently above the law and that person is donald trump. but here we are, at least the all the information that's available

is out. and for the books and for history. those of us who served to get the story out first and the january 6th committee continue to be proud of the work that we did, and we're not going to be intimidated or bullied by donald j. trump. >> i understand the cause for pride. i think everyone owes the committee a debt of gratitude. but his party that it all took so long, and merrick garland's department of justice. >> well, yes, i mean, i although there's not extensive information in this report, it looks to me that they didn't really get rolling until our committee was able to provide public information. and of course, it took us a while. we had to interview witnesses and investigate, and that was too late to start. i think the traditional way you prosecutors, you start with the little guys and work your way up, that was not the right model when clearly

the instigator of this entire illegal scheme was donald trump. and to working your way up from the foot soldiers was never going to work. those poor rioters, they got duped by trump. they thought they were doing what he wanted and that they were patriots. it's absurd. but they many of them have suffered greatly because they believed him. and they did what he asked them to do. trump was at the center of this. he's escaped accountability, which i think is a shame. but at least we all know the answer to the whodunit. it's him. >> congresswoman, we always appreciate your candor. thank you very much for joining us today. when we come back, what special counsel jack smith said in his report about the united states supreme court and their role and their ruling on role and their ruling on presidential immunity. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean. not spreadsheets... you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our matching platform lets you spend less time searching and more time connecting with candidates.

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mine. call coventry direct today at 800 459 2600 or visit coventry direct.com. again going through jack smith's final report on january 6th. a striking part of it is where he addresses how the findings of his investigation were undermined when the united states supreme court ruled on immunity. jack smith writes, says, quote, before this case, no court had ever found that presidents are immune from criminal responsibility for their official acts. and no text in the constitution explicitly confers such criminal immunity on the president, as set forth below. prior criminal investigations by the department of justice, whether conducted through special prosecutors,

independent counsels, or special counsels, had examined whether presidents had violated federal criminal law through use of their official powers, and none none of those investigations have regarded former presidents as immune from criminal liability for their official acts. the office proceeded from the same premise. joining our conversation, former u.s. attorney, former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman is here as well. harry litman, your thoughts? >> well, on this part. look, this is overall a by the book report by a by the book prosecutor. but as you say, he has in in his by the book speak some pretty strong criticism. he has a footnote to 67 that at length quotes from. he lets justice sotomayor do the talking. but as she says, the court's created a law free zone. under the court's opinion, the famous navy seal six hypothetical would go forward, as would a flat out bribe to

take a pardon. immune, immune, immune, immune, as she writes in the dissent. and he puts that all through. then, of course, he just also shows in practical terms why it was such a curve ball, why it took so much time, and why it eventually foiled any hope for a trial of trump. >> so harry litman, absent any concerns about criminal exposure, what do you predict could happen next? >> so look, nicole, i think we're really in a battle, but it's a historical battle. i think it's a really important report, notwithstanding that, as zoe lofgren said, there's not much new here. there is, by the way, an account of why he didn't bring the insurrection charge that would have disqualified trump from office. that's kind of valuable. but the main thing is we have this formal, you know, coffee table compendium, as we did for nine over 11, as we did for the warren commission. and we know from the

end of that and the correspondence what trump's line is going to be, even though it's a nonsensical. the people decided i've been exonerated. that is an account he's going to be pushing for years in a continuing attempt to wipe this from the pages of history. and, you know, the democracy has huge stakes that that not happen. so it exists as this kind of formal refutation of everything he said. smith says at the very end he says this, but it's crazy. the merits, the evidence, the righteousness, everything about the case the department stands behind. and that's going to be the formal statement from the us government that will be counter posed to the malarkey that trump's going to be advancing for years, as long as he's in public life. >> it's a coffee table book that will go next to the mueller report, volumes one and two. i guess my question for you is, do

democrats adapt to a new world where the republicans are immune from facts, indifferent to the rule of law, and frankly, much better at the political gamesmanship of having a party leader who rolls like a criminal. >> you know, i think every single one of us, whether a democratic politician or a person out here just doing the work, has to do the same thing, which is essentially what jack smith was talking about even in his letter, when he said the principles compel the prosecution. we have to stay principled. and part of that principle is to be truth tellers. part of that principle is to not stop fighting and to not stop insisting on the truth. and at the same time, and you and i talked about this the entire election cycle. nicole, understanding speaking to, with and about regular people because there's so much that happened in this election cycle. there's so much more complexity underneath.

who voted for trump, why they voted for trump, who didn't show up to vote, who who don't want trump in office. but 6 million people sat at home who voted in 2020 from joe biden, didn't show up in 2024. and a lot of that is about the work that we are supposed to be doing to advance not only our democracy, but all the things that our democracy is supposed to promise, which is problem solving for people. that requires rights, civil rights, that requires justice, that requires accountability. it requires not allowing that house to be sold to the wealthy. and that's what everyone should be focused on. >> do you ever worry, though, maya, that that the substance of what the democratic coalition and the pro-democracy coalition stands for and believes in, so much has just been dealt this extraordinary blow because the politics were politics that were lost. >> the politics are not lost.

>> the election was because the election was lost. >> say the principles, though, underlying what we, most of us in this country agree to have not been lost. the problem is we got to stop being technocratic and start being serious about problem solving for regular folks. those folks are every folk. whether you're in the hood or in a rural neighborhood, and all the people trying to tell us that it is d and i and the woke that are getting in the way of whether people can see a doctor when they're sick or pay their rent is a distraction, and we can't be distracted by the politics of division. we have to remain principled about what a democracy is supposed to be, who it's supposed to be for, and it's not supposed to be. elon musk, it's supposed to be us. >> kamala harris made those arguments and didn't prevail. why do you think that is? >> you know, i actually think that there was a lot more that could have been done in this cycle about talking about what the future can look like. that

was part of it. early on, we lost a bit of it because for a lot of folks talking about democracy, when they don't feel it, we don't feel the benefits of it is not motivating, even though so many of us, and me included, do care about it. but you know, when folks say my ankle is swollen, i can't pay my rent, and you want to talk to me about democracy, i'm trying to figure out how i can see a doctor, and i'm trying to figure out how my child and i can have a future. and it is what we have always been about, whether it's the democratic party, whether it's the advocacy community or whether it's most americans. and that's the business of getting back to business about making it work for all of us. >> thank you so much, harry levin and maya wiley, thank you for joining us today. we're going to shift gears. we're going to head out west to what is now the seventh day of fighting those devastating wildfires that have upended life in los angeles. firefighters once again contending with high winds as they work to control

the fires that have already taken the lives of 24 people. we'll have a live report next. >> the first 100 days, it's a critical time for our country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. >> so we're going to do it. >> settle in the rachel maddow show five nights a week beginning monday. msnbc premium gives you early access and ad free listening to rachel maddow chart topping series, msnbc original podcasts, exclusive bonus content, and all of your i'm barbara and i'm from bonus st. joseph, michigan.our favorite msnbc shows i'm a retired school librarian. i'm also a library board trustee, a mother of two, and a grandmother of two. about five years ago, i was working full time, i had an awful lot of things to take care of. i needed all the help i could get. i saw the commercials for prevagen. i started taking it. and it helped! i was better able to take care of all those little details. people say to me, "barbara, you don't miss a beat."

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helpfighthate.org today. before you go to extremes to fix sagging and wrinkles with expensive injections. try this. olay regenerist. olay boosts skin cell regeneration to firm, lift, and reshape volume without painful prices. for me, it's only olay. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job on indeed, it's easier for talented candidates to find it. which makes it easier for you to hire them. visit indeed.com/hire los angeles started, and today, much of southern california is under a critical red flag warning due to the santa ana winds picking back up, with some of the strongest gusts expected to come tonight. at this hour, 88,000 people remain under

evacuation orders. the palisades fire that spans more than 23,000 acres is just 17% contained. the eaton fire has not grown in acreage over the last two days and is now 35% contained, and the hearst fire is now 97% contained. with renewed winds and low humidity, officials are prepared for an aggressive response to prevent the fires from spreading any further, let's bring into our coverage nbc news correspondent steve patterson at a donation site in altadena, california. steve, tell us what you're seeing and hearing. >> this donation site is like so many we've seen outside the ruins of somebody's home, unfortunately. look at this. this is the guy named jose. just met him. >> thankfully, though, this is his garage with these high winds, there's obviously worried about what could happen later on tonight. in the meantime, look at this. these are donations that he's collected after he found out his home survived. wanted to do something. and it's

water. it's baby formula. it's clothing, it's food. it's canned goods. it's everything. and it's all throughout this entirety of the backyard of his house, stretching all the way into the front yard of his house. and here's jose. jose. hello. how are you, man? how's it going? good. >> how did this happen? i mean, did you expect this outpouring of support to happen when you started asking for donations? >> no, we never expected this much to pour in. >> honestly, we were surprised with the community support. it was not just the community. >> there's people from long beach, anaheim, laguna hills, just area, just you put the word out and they came. >> yeah, i put the word out on our instagram. >> it started off with just our instagram. >> and because we used to have a business that we ran from our driveway. >> so the community already kind of knew us. >> but once i saw that our house survived, we needed to step into action and help our neighbors. >> you were telling me the action was so quick and so huge that you're done taking donations. >> now take a moment. >> we're done taking donations. >> it's just so overwhelming. we've had over 50 volunteers

this weekend alone and we just finished organizing everything. so we're putting a pause on donations, but keep an update on our instagram and if we need more then we'll definitely ask for more. bless you man. >> thank you guys. thank you so much. >> appreciate it. >> you can hear that community support. this is altadena right. this is a community that comes together when something like this happens. we saw it when it first happened. people putting water on their neighbor's homes to save that. and now i mean the enormity of this is just incredible. meanwhile, national guard in the distance, police keeping a tight scene. firefighters, including investigative firefighters, digging through the ruins to continue their search. back to you, nicole. >> steve patterson, this is the first time i've smiled during one of your live reports. that's just awesome. please. if they're. i understand they've stopped donations, so i won't ask to publicize what they're doing. but if there's more that people can do, promise that you'll share that with us. we'll do. thank you. steve patterson reporting for us from altadena. joining us now from outside the rose bowl in pasadena,

california. congressman george whitesides, the congressman, made combating wildfires a huge part of his work before joining congress. he's the co-founder of mega fire action, the first organization dedicated to solving the country's mega fire crisis. thank you so much for joining us. please tell us first how you're doing, how southern california is doing, and what people outside the area should know about. the risk that remains. >> thanks, nicole. it's great to be with you. you know, i just came back from a visit to the local pasadena center where people are being housed by the red cross, and it just rips your guts out to see people's lives destroyed, or at least significantly harmed. >> but it does give us hope to see the outpouring of support that we're seeing from across los angeles and across the country to help these people get back on their feet and to eventually rebuild. >> we're very concerned about the winds that are coming in tonight. >> i represent a district that where the hurst fire is, is largely contained, but we're

worried about new start ignitions. >> and of course, we're worried about eaton and the palisades. >> what we need to do going forward is to really have a national conversation about how we're going to address mega fires going forward. that risk is going to be increasing. there are things that we can do, but we have to put the resources into it, and we have to get serious as a country about these climate risks, which are going to be affecting all parts of our country. >> the victims don't know any political persuasion. it has nothing to do with who loses their life or who loses their home. what are the victims owed by the country at this moment of extreme need? >> i think most of all, we need to recognize that the victims are americans. and, you know, there's all this talk of conditioning aid and all these things. i think it's absolutely ridiculous. and i do think it's good news that speaker johnson said that he would come out and visit and see the destruction, because once you look in the eyes of these people, i saw a little girl. she couldn't have been more than four playing with a couple of toys on the floor of

the pasadena convention center, civic center, you know, amidst 300 beds. it just it just it's unfathomable that we're in this, in this situation. and so we need to get help to these people immediately. we need to make sure that the processes inside fema and california are working smoothly. so far, people are working very hard to do that. and we need to help people rebuild their lives, whether it's, you know, helping them rebuild their homes, getting transitional housing and working on, you know, the employment situation, this is going to have a tremendous economic impact for, for the for the area of los angeles. >> governor newsom has told my colleague jacob soboroff that he's ordered an investigation into the water supply. other officials have said that there are close to a dozen different water districts. what is your sort of degree of satisfaction with the answers to the questions that you're asking? with all of your immense expertise? >> well, look, i think the number one thing that people need to realize is that this was basically an unstoppable fire. it was a unique wind event that

really covered all of los angeles, which is quite rare for the santa ana's. you know, usually it's more specific canyons and things like that. the entirety of los angeles was going and no municipal water system is built to, you know, simultaneously fight a thousand hydrants open at the same time. so there's a ton of misinformation out there. but i do think that what's important is that we can work on making our communities more resilient. that starts with paying our wildfire fighters a living wage and providing year round work. right now, that's not true for many folks in the in the federal wildfire service. we need to make sure that we're doing the work to reduce fuels in in the western landscapes. we need to make sure that we're doing the work as homeowners and community leaders to harden and to make our communities more resilient. and we need to make the investments in technology that might help our front line firefighters get to this, get to these fires sooner. this, this, this disaster is going to cost multiples, probably of tens of billions of dollars. and we need

to be investing more to protect our people. >> congressman, we will continue to call on you as the recovery proceeds. thank you so much for joining us today. we're really joining us today. we're really grateful. thank you. nicole. (sneeze) (hooves approaching) not again. your cold is coming! your cold is coming! thanks...revere. we really need to keep zicam in the house. only if you want to shorten your cold! when you feel a cold coming, shorten it with zicam (revere: hyah) life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day. if you're watching this, i didn't make it. thanks to people like you and the american heart association, my family never had to see this video. i was a healthy 47 year old,

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