regulate cash and money and y'all know where we at. we went from the jump. >> president elect trump will likely inherit a chaotic situation in the middle east. we are getting a picture of what a donald trump cabinet will look like in el paso from philadelphia. >> in israel, new hampshire from msnbc world headquarters. >> good to be with you. >> i'm katie tur. the cease fire agreement announced yesterday is already held up. the deal is supposed to go into effect on

sunday, but the israeli cabinet has yet to vote on it. in a statement, prime minister benjamin netanyahu is accusing hamas of, quote, reneging on the understandings of the deal. he provided no details and hamas denies the allegation. still, the white house remains confident the cease fire will begin on schedule. >> this is not an issue that is going to derail the whole implementation of the deal. and as secretary blinken rightly said, we fully expect and we're confident that we're going to be able to get this deal in place by by sunday. >> joining us now from jerusalem, nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. richard, president biden is about to speak in a moment. but first, we do want to start with you. i'm sure he's going to talk a little bit about this conflict and the cease fire. what is the deal with these? you know, i think we just lost richard. >> why don't we, instead of richard, go right now to former israeli prime minister naftali bennett.

>> prime minister, thank you for being with us. and thank, thank, you know, i'm happily happy we had you available right at the top here to go to you. i believe we have you for you. there you are. thank you for being there for us. >> all right, let's let's talk about the hiccups in this cease fire deal. >> as i understand it, the israeli cabinet is meeting at 7 a.m. tomorrow. what do you understand is going on? >> it's going to pass. >> there's obviously considerable resistance and debate in israel regarding the deal. many feel that it's a vital deal that we're bringing home hostages. but on the other hand, many oppose it because it leaves two thirds of the hostages in hamas hands, and it keeps hamas up in alive. so it's a highly debated deal, though majority of israelis supported it will pass in the vote in the cabinet. there's a big majority. >> do you think doing a phased

deal is a good idea, given all of the tensions, all of the all of the ways that this could go wrong? >> generally, i would think that a much better approach would be all of the hostages. it's a tremendously problematic to keep two thirds of the hostages in the hamas hands. but we are where we are. and i want to second guess my own government. but i will say that earlier today i met the families of the hostages, and they were amazing because even families that their member is supposed to be released in this deal said that they feel terrible, that many others are going to stay in captivity of hamas. and that's the type of solidarity that makes me proud to be israeli. >> the former israeli ambassador to the united states, michael oren, says that this is a bad deal, but it's a deal that we have to take because of the

failures of october 7th. what do you think of that? >> look, i think factually, the government had set three objectives, which is to beat hamas militarily, replace hamas on a civilian layer and bring home all the hostages. >> factually, we've not met those objectives, any of them as of yet. that's a fact. and we're 14 months in. would are there better ways to have handled the whole thing? perhaps. but we are where we are. and my main message is that israelis are united in embracing the hostages and looking to ensure that all the hostages will be brought home. and ultimately, we have to be able to replace hamas. we cannot allow hamas to be left standing up after what they did, because they are saying right now that they're going to do it again. >> there were images of hamas celebrating in the streets of

gaza yesterday. >> i'm sure you saw them. hamas has not been eradicated. secretary blinken, here in the united states said that there has been three hamas recruits for every one that israel has been able to kill. >> was this war successful? >> you know, we had to go to war to remove hamas. i see those celebrations. i'm not impressed by those celebrations. they are celebrating a cult of death. we in israel celebrate life, and life will prevail. make no mistake that these people who are right now chanting yahya sinwar and we're going to do october 7th again, that is not the way forward. we will fight them as much as we need until we win again. tactically, things could be done differently, better, and ultimately they will be done better and we will win. >> do you think israel is safer

today than it was after october 7th? >> yes. many of hamas's abilities, hezbollah's abilities have been dramatically reduced. but have we achieved the objectives that the three objectives that the government set? no we haven't. i got to be honest, and i think we have to prosecute th war, conduct the war in a much more effective way. >> the two state solution is still the thing that the americans are holding on to. >> they want to see it. it's not something that i think you can argue that the palestinians want. >> i think they want one state, a palestinian state. it's not something that the israelis want. >> they want one state. >> they want an israeli state is a two state solution ever going to be possible? >> and if so, do you think there's ever going to be a time where or is there a leader out there that can unite the israelis? >> and then is there a leader that can unite the palestinians to try to coexist peacefully? >> you know, the palestinians had a state in gaza. they had an

independent state. there was no siege at the beginning, nothing. we handed all of gaza over to the palestinians and said, go build yourselves a life. and that was in 2005. and instead, what they did, they built a terror nation. they built tunnels and rockets and missiles in order to kill as many jews as possible. that's what they did with billions of dollars. so to think that we should now try this again in a bigger scope in judea and samaria, that would be a vast, a mistake, a huge mistake for the state of israel. we don't want to govern the palestinians. i don't want to govern the palestinians. they should have their own autonomy, their own entity, but a full blown state that would again threaten israel. that's not going to work. and do you think there's ever going to be the israelis do not agree to that. >> will there ever be a lasting

peace, not just a, you know, no violence, but a lasting peace between palestinians and israelis without a two state solution? >> do you think that that palestinians in gaza or the west bank will ever be fully satisfied enough to not try to wage war or to commit acts of violence as resistance if they don't have their own full scale autonomy? >> you see. >> but the fact is that they're not seeking the state. they had one in their hands, and they turned it into a terror state in gaza. they govern themselves. they had their own elections, their own government, their own everything. and they immediately after we disengage from the their they turned it into a terror state. so unfortunately, they are not seeking a state aside a jewish state. they are seeking to remove the entire jewish state. in our case, we do want others to live with respect and dignity besides us. we're not trying to kill them or annihilate them. they're trying to do it to us. we will not let

them do that again. that's our big lesson from october 7th. >> what is your vision for the day after? if you were in charge, what would you be proposing? >> what i would do ultimately is the following. in gaza, i would ensure that for the foreseeable future, israel does not govern gaza's life. they would have their own government of moderate arab states, for example, egypt and the emirates and the saudis. we would be responsible for security and have a perimeter surrounding gaza, in gaza, so they can't attack us again the way they did. they would govern themselves. we don't want to govern them, but we have to retain security control. i would do this asap because i don't want to be governing them. >> do you think netanyahu can maintain his coalition? >> i don't know, i think the question is the future of israel and the future of israel means that we have to eradicate hamas,

and we have to bring the hundred hostages home. we just have to do that. those are the objectives that the government itself set, and we have to meet them. >> and do you have a good idea of how many of them are still alive? >> i don't want to talk about the numbers that have been floating around. some of them have been executed, unfortunately, and many of them are still alive, and we're fighting for each of them and praying that they'll come home safely. >> naftali bennett, former prime minister of israel, thank you so much for joining us, and thank you for being ready for us right at the top of the show when we needed you. >> thank you. >> you take care. bye bye. >> joining us now from jerusalem, nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel. >> let's try this again, my friend. we just spoke to naftali bennett. >> he believes for that technical problem, it happens. >> don't worry. >> i couldn't hear you. i tried to get off camera so that you wouldn't come to me, but i guess it didn't work. i'm back here.

fascinating interview, by the way. i was able to hear, hear all of it. and i think it's quite representative of how many people think in israel. they're not interested in this two state solution. they want a security solution. and you were pressing him quite hard. is that really the best way to go forward in the long term? fascinating. so i'm with you now. >> i'm glad you're able to listen to it. and what he did say is he believes. i know there's a cabinet meeting at 7 a.m. tomorrow, israeli time to go over this deal. and he believes it's going to get done. give me give me the contours of the deal. give me the state of things for prime minister benjamin netanyahu. you heard bennett's response there. he said he's not quite sure he's going to survive this. >> so you probably know by now that the meeting the government was supposed to happen today, and the israeli government was going to ratify this deal that was announced yesterday by the united states. >> it was announced in qatar. the cease fire deal has been

more or less accepted internationally, but not by the israeli government officially, even though the israeli military says it has already begun preparations for the deal it is already setting setting up mechanisms so that it can have the construction facilities in place to allow more aid to go into gaza. it is setting up the necessary personnel to provide medical treatment for the hostages. so there is little doubt here that the cease fire is going ahead. but we are seeing some last minute political maneuvering in israel. so prime minister netanyahu today accused hamas of extending the goalposts, of adding new clauses. he refused to convene his government. there's now talk that some members of his government may resign. one of them is threatening to resign. so this is a very tense period of last minute political maneuvering, let's say. and the military campaign on gaza is still continuing. according to a

senior health official in gaza who spoke to nbc news, more than 100 palestinians, many of them women and children, have been killed in different attacks, many of them in gaza city itself. since the deal was announced yesterday. now, that is technically not a violation because the israeli government hasn't signed the deal and once it does sign it, it wouldn't go into go into effect probably until sunday. but it shows. there is a lot of nervousness here. there's a lot of a lot of last minute maneuvering, political maneuvering, military actions that are still ongoing. but as far as we understand, the deal is likely to be signed tomorrow. we'll still go ahead and probably be be begin being implemented on sunday. >> give us the palestinian side of things. they will be allowed to go back north, a number of them to their homes. what are they going to find? how quickly will aid get through to gaza?

>> so the 2.2 to 2.3 million palestinians living in gaza, most of the destruction has been in the north, although there's been quite a bit of destruction in the south and in central gaza as well. >> but the majority of the population, as you know, was was ordered to head to the south to head to particular areas in the south that were declared safe zones or humanitarian zones and large parts of, of northern gaza, gaza city, beit hanoun have really been obliterated. and there are checkpoints, israeli checkpoints that have been set up that don't allow the palestinians in the south to go to the north. so to go back to see if their homes survived, to see what what might be left, according to the deal, once it goes into effect, israeli troops would pull back, pull back to the edges of gaza. palestinians would be allowed to go from the south to the north. aid trucks, about 600 trucks per day, would

start going in, bringing in food, medicine, water, gasoline, all the things that that people need and hostages would start to come out, that 33 hostages would come out in batches over the first 42 days to establish some trust and to allow negotiations to continue for the next phase. a more lasting ceasefire, perhaps what is being described as a permanent ceasefire. >> all right. richard engel, thank you very much. >> i appreciate it. and still ahead, we are four days out from the inauguration, just four days now and in the middle of confirmation hearings that will shape the trump administration, we're going to try to figure out what exactly we can expect. also, a little bit later, we're going to talk to congressman jim himes, the ranking member on the intel committee in the house. he's got a lot to say about his his cohort there, mike turner, who was the chairman of house intel, who republican speaker mike johnson ousted last night

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mag. >> there are just four days now left before donald trump gets sworn in for a second time. and if you're wondering what exactly to expect, well, welcome to the club because nothing feels all that certain right now. there's the promise. as we were talking about, of the ceasefire in israel and a dramatically different middle east, with all of the risk and the opportunity that poses, there is the threat of china, which has only grown as the country has been able to hack into both our communication systems and our critical infrastructure, like power grids and water reservoirs, on top of the cultural manipulation it's attempting with apps like tiktok and a soft war directed at our minds. there's also immigration and just how ugly a new trump administration is willing to get to follow through with mass deportations. there's tariffs and looming trade wars, desired territorial ambitions in greenland and panama. there's also the question of how seriously to take donald trump

and his allies on the threats to go after, quote, the enemy from within. you remember that, and who exactly they define as that enemy. and it's on that last question where we will start this conversation. joining us now, nbc news chief capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles. so we've seen a number of confirmation hearings now. and the number is still ongoing. i want to focus on the ones where there's going to be a lot of concentrated power to go after anybody that donald trump deems an enemy or anybody that he's said in the past he deems an enemy. we've seen pam bondi for ag in front of senators. she's had a decent go of it in these hearings, but she is still getting tough questions on loyalty, and she's getting tough questions on the people that would be under her, including kash patel. >> yeah, katie, i don't think there's any doubt that if you were looking for a theme across

the board with each one of these confirmation hearings, it's the effort that democrats made to put these cabinet officials on the record that they would make decisions with the constitution in mind, with loyalty to the constitution, and not loyalty specifically to donald trump as president of the united states. and for the most part, you saw these cabinet officials pledged to do just that. i mean, there was a back and forth yesterday with john ratcliffe, who's the pick to be the leader at the cia, and angus king. king just ran down a list of questions that he had specifically about decisions that would be made and if they would be made based on political concerns, or they would be made based on the rule of law. and ratcliffe answered in the affirmative to each one of those questions. and bondi was also pressed about an enemies list about kash patel. as you rightly point out, if he ends up as the fbi director, would they go after these people that donald trump has said in the past that he is not a fan of? and she said flatly that there would be no enemies list at the office of the attorney

general. now, this these questions in many ways are hypotheticals. they're not directed at any one specific person or specific issue. so it's an easy answer when you're not dealing with a very specific issue. i think when you saw senators dive into this a little bit, with a little bit more specificity in the exchange, i think of is the one between pam bondi and senator adam schiff of california, where he specifically talked about liz cheney. and bondi was somewhat evasive, said no one's ever asked her to do anything as it relates to liz cheney, but would not promise to not investigate liz cheney. i think that's perhaps where you get a little bit underneath the hood here, in terms of how these cabinet secretaries will act as it relates to donald trump and his wishes. >> yeah, i mean, he's been very clear about what he wants. he wouldn't even have to say it again, because he's already been pretty public about who he doesn't think has been sufficiently loyal and who he believes is one of his enemies. liz cheney being one of them. ryan nobles, thank you very much. joining us now, nyu law

professor, former white house counsel in the obama administration and coauthor of executive functions on substack, a newsletter devoted to the analysis of presidential and broader executive power issues. bob bauer. bob, good to have you. let's talk about expectations here. i think there's a lot of people that don't know how much of what donald trump was saying on the campaign trail is talk, how much what steve bannon has been said about going after people as talk, or what kash patel has said about going after people is talk and how much of it's actually going to come to fruition. it's a it's a really weird place to be, to be unsure of what to expect in terms of the prosecutorial power that this new team will be wielding in just a few days. >> yes. and of course, over the course of our history, there's been a consensus across democratic and republican administrations that the department of justice, while it has to be loyal, if you will, committed to the president's governing program, must conduct law enforcement in an impartial manner, free of both the

appearance and the fact of political influence. >> and the question is, given what donald trump has said about loyalty, given the number of times he has threatened the prosecution of political adversaries, whether the people now coming to these posts are going to be able to uphold that tradition. and you saw that, as your correspondent just said a minute ago, being the focus of the questioning of attorney general bondi. and i think it will be the focus of the questioning of the other senior department officials who are coming up for confirmation in the weeks ahead. >> you're also going to have folks giving advice to donald trump on orders he may be issuing. you're going to have a white house counsel team that will tell him, presumably what's legal and what's not. and one of the things they they would have advised him on back in 2016 was whether it was legal to direct the pentagon to shoot protesters, which, you know, mark esper has said he was he was ordered to do, which he did not do. pete hegseth was asked about that by mazie hirono. we have this sound bite, and i'd love to play it for you just so we can remind ourselves of this moment in pete hegseth

confirmation. just a couple of days ago, in june of 2020, then-president trump directed former secretary of defense mark esper to shoot protesters in the legs in downtown d.c, an order. >> secretary esper refused to comply with. would you carry out such an order from president trump? >> senator, i was in the washington, dc national guard unit that was in lafayette square during those. >> would you carry out an order to shoot protesters in the legs? >> i saw the secret service agents to get injured by rioters trying to jump over the fence, set church on fire and destroy it. that sounds to me that you will comply with such an order. >> you will shoot protesters in the in the leg, bob. >> that is, you know, that's something that a lot of americans would be concerned about if they're protesting. and donald trump doesn't agree with the protests is pete hegseth. if he gets confirmed, the kind of guy who would send that order on down and he he, you know, waffled on that, he wouldn't be

clear on that. the white house council of lawyers that donald trump is going to have, along with the d.o.j. set of lawyers. what's your expectation on the advice that that they would be giving him on something like that if it came to pass? >> you're quite right. the white house counsel plays a critical role. let me just stress one thing. every white house counsel knows that every senior doj official knows that we can have norms. we can have rules, we can have policies, but they have to be implemented. and people in charge have to be to see that they are honored in full and apply those norms in particular cases, faithfully and effectively. and i'll just point out, the white house counsel is the author. >> and you saw some testimony on this topic during the hearing of the so-called contacts policy. >> there are very specific requirements for communications between the white house and the department of justice. that is to say, by policy adopted in administrations both democratic and republican. in january of 2017, donald trump's first white

house counsel, don mcgahn, put out a memorandum very similar to ones that had been issued by prior administrations, in effect saying that the department of justice and the white house have to collaborate to ensure that the public is confident that criminal investigations, criminal cases that the department brings or chooses not to bring are handled in a fashion that are free of political influence. that's in the trump's first administration, president trump's first administration. so the question is, will we have a team at the white house and the department of justice who will put the same commitment to those principles before the american public and then implement them faithfully? the attorney general designate or nominee, pam bondi, said yesterday there would be a contacts policy. the thing to keep an eye on is how it's written and who will be confirmed. to see that it is honored. >> there's also the wrinkle of the supreme court ruling that that has given the executive immunity for any conversations he might be having with his

attorney general, which lowers, if not outright eliminates, a guardrail. so if donald trump is saying i don't like liz cheney, or if he's saying i don't like adam schiff, or he's saying i don't like kinzinger, or if he's saying i don't like this media host, or if he's saying i don't like this protester, whatever it is, whatever person that might be deemed a threat from within, what is the immunity decision? how does that play? >> the president, again, by opinions that were issued across different administrations, a president, any president, has enjoyed immunity while in office from criminal prosecution, not from investigation, but from prosecution. what the supreme court has made very clear now is that that immunity attaches to any communications that the president has on officially related matters with senior members of the department of justice or with anybody, for that matter, in the department of justice. and that creates, i think, additional pressure on the people who advise the

president to ensure that these principles and traditions are honored, in fact, and that rests with the fidelity to law of the people who hold these positions and their commitment to basic norms even beyond what those laws require. it's all going to be a question of those in those positions of responsibility, taking those responsibilities seriously. >> bob bauer worked as a white house counsel, also a lawyer for president biden as well. personal side of things. bob bauer, thank you very much. still ahead, what or who pushed speaker mike johnson to oust the chair of the house intel committee? and why the highest ranking democrat on the committee said it sent a shiver down his spine. he will join us to explain that in a moment. plus, they lost everything in the in the california wildfires. what small businesses are now doing to try to rebuild? they spoke with my colleague jacob soboroff. work, play.

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>> alloy has been completely game changing. >> find relief at my alloy comm. >> big changes already in house intelligence. speaker johnson is named arkansas representative rick crawford as the new chairman of the house intel committee, one day after ousting mike turner from that role. crawford is a more maga aligned congressman and the next most senior gop member of that committee. yesterday, turner told cbs news that speaker johnson cited, quote, concerns for mar-a-lago as reasoning for

his removal. johnson, however, denied trump's involvement, saying it simply, quote, is a new era in washington. joining us now, democratic congressman from connecticut and ranking member of house intel, jim himes. really good to have you. can i get your reaction first to the news that rick crawford will be your cohort? on the other side of things will be the ranking will be the i'm sorry, the chairman of house intel. >> yeah, i know rick and i've worked with him for a long time. i respect him and i'm looking forward to working with him. but, you know, i think what was done to mike turner was just terrible and a little scary, right? katie, you'll remember from trump's first term, there were three institutions that he attacked and badly wanted to compromise and eliminate their independence the federal reserve, the department of justice and the intelligence community. >> and it's essential that all three of those departments and institutions maintain the independence that allows them to do what they need to do.

>> and i, you know, whether it was inside the house republican conference, as the speaker maintains, or whether this was a mar-a-lago thing, as mike turner believes, you know, he got fired because they thought he would do his job of providing oversight of the intelligence community to make sure that the intelligence community, no matter what, donald trump wanted to hear that the intelligence community was delivering its best judgments and assessments to the president. >> so this is a, you know, again, nothing against rick crawford, who i do like, but this is just not a good portent for, you know, what what was designed to be an institution that was a check and balance on the power of the president. >> so just to remind folks where mike turner stood, he's a republican, aligned with a lot of trump stuff, aligned with republicans on pretty much everything. but he was critical of donald trump for that phone call he made to zelensky,ing the first time. he he also was supportive of the u.s. sending arms to ukraine. really wanted to keep that going. fan of

russia, donald trump obviously not aligned with him on that. and then he voted to certify president biden's election, as you understand it, were those the things that ultimately made his chairmanship untenable or undesirable for mar-a-lago? >> yeah. >> i mean, i think you frame it exactly right, which is that, you know, mike was, by and large, a supporter of president trump, but he maintained some independence. and you just you just sort of talked about why. and mike turner also knew that his job was to, even when the president was of his party, was to provide tough oversight of the activities of the executive branch. and, you know, this isn't that mike turner was a 30% trump guy. he was a 90% trump guy, but 90% is not good enough, particularly in a very sensitive position, like somebody who is there to provide a check and balance on the activities of the intelligence community. >> this is the gang of eight. you're going to get access to the most sensitive, classified

information that the united states has access to. as i understand it, mike turner is no longer even on the intel committee. you've seen all this in intelligence, congressman, i know you can't go into it, but you talked about this sending a chill down your spine. is it because of what you know that's out there that that is there a threat that you're worried about that you think, donald the chill doesn't see as a threat? i mean, what is the chill? >> no, it's not it's not so much that the chill is. i had this weird feeling that it was like i remember exactly where i was when the president fired in the beginning of his first term. jim comey, the fbi director. now, whatever you think about jim comey and lots of people think lots of different things about jim comey, there was that moment in the white house where the president said to jim comey, i need your loyalty. and jim comey said, well, i'll be loyal to the law. no, i need your loyalty. and that's what that's what just happened. >> right? >> i don't think the conversation actually happened, but i think people wondered whether mike turner, when push came to shove, whether he would stand for the constitution and his job as a member of congress,

or whether he would defend donald trump. and i think that is why he is gone. no, there's not a particular threat out there, by the way. but i will tell you, setting aside sort of the constitutional issues and the good governance issues, mike turner has probably forgotten more about not the national security of the united states than any 12 member of members of congress are ever going to know. so yes, of course, it's a huge loss at a very senior position in a very sensitive role, but it's more about the signal that is sent in this building. if you're only 95% loyal to donald trump, you're out of there that people will watch and learn why you didn't vote to. >> i'm going to change topics for this last question. i want to talk about tiktok. you did not vote to ban tiktok. now we're hearing the biden administration wants to extend the deadline. there's talk that pam bondi, she was asked about this. she didn't really answer whether she would enforce the ban. the ceo of tiktok is heading to the inauguration. why don't you see or do you see

tiktok differently than the rest of your colleagues do, that, that it was a national security threat? >> yeah, no. in fact, i know more about what the russians can and would and might want to do with tiktok than pretty much all of my colleagues, because in virtue of my fact as my position as ranking member of the intelligence committee, and i make no bones, and i'm not naive at all about what the chinese might try to do. it is also true that to date, the chinese have never used tiktok to try to influence an american election or to try to influence an american individual. now, by the way, we have a much larger conversation to be had about social media's impact on american individuals. but but the bottom line for me, and the reason i was a hard no on that bill, was that the federal government has no business, no business telling the american people, the citizens of this country that, sorry, you don't get to read this media. you don't get to hear this idea. you don't get to use this platform that is completely inconsistent with the first amendment and with the idea, ask you, i just want to interrupt because i've

heard a lot of very different views on it. >> you have china and you know this better than i do. you have china able to get into our our power grid, our water reservoirs. they've hacked into that stuff. they can get control of it. they've hacked into our communications and have been sitting on our communications now for a while. and then you couple it with the ability to, if they wanted to. manipulate. and that's the most diplomatic word i can use, manipulate the content and the and the opinions of millions of americans. i think on the face of that, if you put those three things next to each other certainly scares me. >> well, look, do they have the capability? you're right. the chinese have broken into pretty much everything, right? and if they wanted to get your personal information on facebook and instagram, i'm pretty confident they've got the technical means to do that. >> it's not getting the information. it's the ability to manipulate opinion. >> right? right now, you know, could they do that? maybe. could they do that without being

discovered? i don't think so. but my point is this, katie, we don't make exceptions to the united states constitution. we don't say that this is really scary. and therefore you don't get to have freedom to associate or freedom of speech. no, we recognize that sometimes there are risks that we run, because at the core of this country is the idea that the citizens get to decide for themselves, and that the government does not get to tell them what media they see, what ideas they can hear. this this ban is completely inconsistent with what i think is the foundational idea of this country. >> and yes, it comes with risks. >> but, you know, they were saying, they were saying sell it. they were saying sell it. they weren't saying you can't use it. they were just saying sell it. they did the same thing to grindr. they're not saying you can't use an app. they're just saying we don't want it owned by a foreign government, given the manipulation. but i'm told that i have to end the conversation here. this is a hobby horse of mine. congressman, i'd love to have you back on to talk about it. thank you so much for joining us today. >> thank you katie. >> take care. coming up after

the supreme court is going to decide on this any moment now. moments ago, president biden delivered an address to members of the military at the department of defense. the commander in chief farewell ceremony. and during that speech, he touted his support for ukraine and for nato. >> i ask you to help defend ukraine. you didn't hesitate. you kept ukraine in the fight. trained ukrainian soldiers and pilots. troops bolstered nato's eastern flank. and above all, you showed the world that america stands up for freedom. stands with our friends. america stands strong with our allies. we never bend down. we bend down to no one. certainly not putin. and now, nearly three years later, putin has failed to take kyiv, failed to make large territorial gains and failed to break nato.

>> tonight, president biden will sit down with our very own lawrence o'donnell for his final exclusive oval office interview. tune in to the last word at 10 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. and still ahead, the ceasefire deal to end the fighting in gaza and bring home hostages is still not yet done. what? the families of those that are still being held are saying. first, though, where do they even begin? what small business owners who lost pretty much everything in those california wildfires are doing now as they wildfires are doing now as they contemplate prilosec knows, for a fire... one fire extinguisher beats 10 buckets of water, and for zero heartburn 1 prilosec a day... beats taking up to 10 antacids a day. it's that simple, for 24 hour heartburn relief... one beats ten. prilosec otc.

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seeing some relief today. the santa ana winds that fueled the fires have finally subsided, allowing firefighters to reach slightly, slightly higher levels of containment. but with more than 12,000 structures destroyed and a death toll that now stands at 27, the recovery is going to be long and it is going to be difficult, nbc news correspondent jacob soboroff spoke with a lot of small business owners about what rebuilding could look like. >> this is the epicenter of the fire zone here in altadena. >> small businesses are the backbone for so many locals here, and so many of them have been decimated. this was a pizza place called side. i actually had my son's ninth birthday here just over a month ago. look

inside. even the pizza oven burned. kevin hawkins started side pie during the pandemic. >> i have 1314 employees and it's like my heart breaks. he and partner rosanna venmo run several small businesses in the area. >> you can't get to your house? no. and your daughter's school is closed. yes. so it's not just the small business? >> no, no. >> while the entire shop caught fire, the back courtyard, typically filled with families and kids, didn't burn. >> what's it like to be back here? >> when i saw the tables, i was like, oh, yes, this is definitely coming back. >> this community is so special and it's so really special to have a business here. >> yeah, down the road, the family lost rhythms of the village, their shop and the only african store in the san gabriel valley. >> i saw the shop fully ablaze and i screamed, i felt sad, i felt all the emotions. then i came to the conclusion that we can rebuild. and those are

material things. >> what matters is that we're all alive. >> what are you bringing in now? >> they're using their home to coordinate donations for the community. >> that includes shoes. random. we appreciate it. okay, get on down. >> that's the way i was raised, being communal. so it's almost divine that we're back here, back at square one and in a position to support anybody in need right now, even as you guys are hurting. >> yeah. >> yeah. of course. yeah. that's our spirit. yeah. >> because in my culture, if you have, i have if i have, you have a week after they lost everything a community facing the future together. >> jacob soboroff, nbc news, altadena, california. >> just so many different people experiencing just an unbelievable amount of loss and erasure out there in los angeles. coming up, a bad agreement is better than no agreement. what my next guest, who spent years as a backchannel

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israel's 2011 war in gaza, when he helped negotiate the release of israeli soldier gilad shalit. gershon, it's good to have you. it's been a little bit i'm interested in your take today, as we are on the precipice of potentially a permanent cease fire and the release of all the remaining hostages, i think, katie, that's exactly what we need to see happen, is the hostages come home and this horrible war in gaza come to an end. >> unfortunately, the deal that's been accepted, which president biden presented back in may, is a deal that extends this suffering from months to come, without all the hostages coming back and without a full commitment to end the war and withdraw from gaza by israel. there's also nothing in the deal that that deals with the political reality of gaza on the day after the war. we all know that hamas cannot continue to control gaza. the people of gaza don't want hamas there anymore. there won't be a penny of international money that's going

to go into gaza. as long as hamas is in charge there. and yet this deal does not produce the political day after either. so it is a bad deal, but it is a deal that we have to support because it's going to start to do what needs to be done. >> i had naftali bennett on a moment ago, former prime minister of somebody that is being spoken about as potentially another future prime minister. if benjamin netanyahu isn't able to survive this, or if he makes it to the next election and faces. competition, he says. what i hear from pretty much everybody within israel, that there is not a desire for a two state solution. same thing for the palestinians. they don't want a two state solution either. they want, you know, their own state within israel, and israel wants their own state within everything else. how do these two peoples come together? how is there? how does trust get rebuilt? how do you go from this to something better?

>> yeah, this is a very, very this is the essence of the problem that we face here. since the year 2000, a majority of israelis and a majority of palestinians have been saying, i want peace, but they don't. and the reality that we live in proves to the people of israel and the people of palestine that the other people don't want to live in peace, but in reality, both people want to live in peace. this is a conflict about identity. it's a conflict about territory. we want a territorial expression of our identity. the jewish people want a nation state of their own. the palestinian people want a nation state of their own. even when this war is over, in which we've experienced the worst trauma that we have in more than 70 years, and we still have 7 million palestinian arabs and 7 million israeli jews living on this small land between the jordan river and the mediterranean sea. and if there's one thing that has to be learned from this tragic war, is that we cannot continue to do this, we have to find a different way. this has to be the last israeli-palestinian war. now, i accept what naftali bennett says, that there's no

appetite for a two state solution, not in israel and perhaps not in palestine. but there is no better solution. 90 countries met yesterday in oslo for the fourth time, in a process which is called the global alliance for the implementation of the two state solution. it's an initiative started by saudi arabia and norway and the united nations and the european union and france, and they brought together four times already 90 countries since september to support this. of course, the state of israel isn't there. the state of israel needs to be there. we can't accept the fact that the people say no to a two state solution, because they're saying it. in the absence of leadership, we need new leaders in israel and in palestine who understand that there is no military solution here. there is no viable arms struggle for the liberation of palestine. there's only an accommodation where both people can have a nation state of their own with cooperation between them. and that's where we're going to move, because we have no other choice.

>> it remains to be seen who those new new leaders might be, both in israel and both in the west bank and in gaza. it's not as if the palestinian authority is all that respected either. among palestinians. >> they're out there. but i would remind us, katie, that a month ago, no one could have imagined syria without bashar al-assad. that's a very good point. no one could have imagined the fall of the berlin wall and the raising of the soviet union, or nelson mandela becoming president of a democratic south africa. it's usually the unexpected that happens, and that's what we have to hope for. our leaders are out there, our new generation of leaders who will have the ability to look forward and understand that we need a piece of no choice. just as we fought these wars of no choice. >> gershon baskin, thank you very much for joining us. that's going to do it for me today. deadline. white house starts right now. >> hi there e