tv Velshi MSNBC January 19, 2025 8:00am-9:00am PST
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opportunity to speak with you. >> thank you very much about the condition of the hostages that were released today. >> and the others? yes. >> i just got a call saying the three are released into gaza to the out of the hands of their captors, and they appear to be in good health. but it's too early to tell. they're literally being. they may be across the border of the gaza strip into israel. now, i'm not certain. >> thank you sir. >> any concerns about hamas regrouping? >> president biden in charleston, south carolina, says he's not taking questions. but hold on. >> no way out. i would do. >> all right. >> he is going to speak to a congregational congregation. meanwhile, what we have is three israeli hostages who have been released into the custody of the red cross. you just heard president biden saying he's not sure whether they're over the border from gaza into israel yet. but what we do know is that they are in the custody of the red cross. they will be they will be checked out by the red
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cross. they will be put into a helicopter and they'll be flown to tel aviv, the sheba hospital in tel aviv, where they will be released or where they will be treated for whatever it is they need to be treated, they will have to be debriefed, and then they will be reunited with their families and the public if they choose to do so. we also have 69 women and children, palestinian prisoners, some of whom have been held on what's called administrative detention, in some cases without charge. they are being released into beitunia in the west bank. that's north of jerusalem, west of ramallah. they have been told the instructions are there to be no parades or celebrations in that area. however, we were just speaking to daniele hamamdjian, who is in the west bank, and it does seem like to the extent that there are people gathering and there are people honking their horns, something that looks like a celebration may or may not be underway. we will also keep bringing you pictures. pictures of hostages square in tel aviv, where families of hostages and supporters are there. that has been a nexus not just for support of the families
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of hostages, but for some of the opposition to the right wing government in israel. we now have confirmation. we now have confirmation from the idf, from the israeli defense forces that the three hostages, the three women who have been released by hamas into red cross captivity, are now in israel. they have crossed over from gaza. they are now in israel with the red cross. they will be put onto a helicopter. there's a helicopter at a base that is adjacent to gaza in southern israel. assuming that they are healthy enough to get on that helicopter immediately, they will be flown to tel aviv, where they will receive treatment at raf sanchez is standing by at the hospital where they will be released. okay, lots going on. we will stay on top of all of it. i apologize to both my viewers and my guests for the fact that it's going to feel a little bit choppy over the next hour, because we'll be talking to somebody and then we'll be going to something else. but that's the nature of this historic moment in which there are
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hostages who are being freed. there are palestinians who are being able to, in some cases, be released from prison. and as as joe biden said, the bombs and the shooting has stopped in gaza. who knows for how long. i'm joined now by tzipi livni, often been regarded as one of the most powerful and influential people in israeli politics. since the former prime minister, golda meir. she has held many roles in israeli government throughout her career, including vice prime minister and minister of justice. her role as israel's foreign minister in 2008, she led multiple rounds of peace negotiations with the palestinians. it is good to see you. thank you for being with us this moment. i don't know how to characterize this moment. it is historic. i'd like to think it's amazing, but it's historic nonetheless. >> it is. >> it's very emotional moment. i cannot stop thinking about these young women on their way to meet their mothers. it is so touching. so yes, it is a
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historical moment and i hope that it's not the last one because. 9094 hostages are still waiting for this moment and their families are waiting for them. >> i was having a good conversation with aaron david miller, whom you know well about the challenges on the palestinian side in terms of leadership. assuming we get to phase two of this discussion and maybe even a phase three and something else happens, this. tzipi, i'm just going to interrupt you for a second. this is video that has just come in to us. it's not live, but we have just received this. this is these are some of the 69 palestinian hostages. these are all women and children in the vehicles who are being released. this is you can. i'm sorry, this is gaza. i'm sorry. these are the israeli hostages in gaza. you're right. >> this is gaza. these are the israeli soldiers. and i would like to mention that the terrorists or the detainees that are in israel are not hostages.
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we are speaking about some terrorists that killed the israelis in the past, that they are going to be released. and part of israeli solidarity is the fact that families that lost their loved by these terrorists are saying, okay, set them free as long as we can get our hostages back. >> i'm glad you were here watching it with me, because you're right. this is this is in gaza. these are the red cross vehicles who are taking who were taking earlier. because i can tell from the time of day, it's dark in israel right now. so that was a little bit earlier. that's the that's when they were being released. >> the hostages are in israel now. >> that's right. we've just we've just confirmed that from the idf. the hostages are there. anyway, i was talking to aaron david miller about the complexity on the palestinian side as to who will lead. there are complexities on the israeli side. even as of this morning. itamar ben-gvir has said that this deal will, quote, destroy
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all of israel's achievements. then he resigned from the government. there is some opposition to this deal within the government, generally against from hardliners in the government that there's opposition amongst the israeli people to this is day one of phase one. talk to me about that, okay. >> the two different basically visions for israel and there are extremists that for them it's not about the release of the hostages, but it's mostly about us staying in gaza. for some it's not for security reasons, but in order to reoccupy gaza, this is something that ben-gvir and some hardliners in the israeli government represent. there are other israelis that i can respect their views. they are saying, okay, we are releasing hostages, but hamas stays in power and we are releasing all these stories to hamas. so we are risking another october 7th. and my answer to them is that, and this is also
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my call to, to, to the us and to president elect. i think that we can all agree that hamas shouldn't stay in power and need to be replaced. so for now, we are having the deal that should be completely implemented, but yet not less important is to speak now about the day after, and to agree how and who will replace hamas in gaza strip for a better future for palestinians in israelis? because we. and when i say we, i mean israelis and palestinians alike, we cannot afford hamas controlled gaza again, as we cannot afford hezbollah in lebanon. and this can turn into a huge opportunity to the region. now, i would like to make it clear for the hardliners in israel, the palestinian authority, they
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reject the palestinian authority. i believe that they are wrong. i believe that this is a huge mistake from the israeli side for not embracing or working with the legitimate palestinian authority, although i agree with aaron miller that it's too weak to co-opted and so on. but we had 15 months to work together with them and with other countries in the region. moderate countries and leaders to enforce or to strengthen the palestinian authority and to make some changes. so they will be enabled to work and to start the beginning of a change in gaza. >> this is a three stage, three phase process. there are many people who are doubtful about getting to phase two. we're going to remain hopeful. but do you believe at least phase one works the arrangement to get the hostages that have been negotiated for and the palestinian prisoners and the cease fire, do you think, at
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least for the next six weeks, this goes smoothly, or are you doing what everybody in that part of the world does, and that is watching hour by hour to see how this unfolds? >> yes, in a way, maybe sometimes hope it. sometimes it's something that we cannot afford. but i am hopeful today. yes, i think that the first phase of this deal will be implemented, but it's not good enough. i mean, it's wonderful, but yet we need to move forward. to what? toward the next stages and phases of this deal, to release all the hostages. and as i said before, it can be also an opportunity to replace hamas with other forces. i speaking honestly, this is not what the israeli government represent. they don't want well, they want to topple hamas as a regime, but they do not offer another regime as a replacement. as i said before, it's a huge mistake, something that can be done. and i think that the role of the us
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is also to push the israeli government not just to implement all the phases of the deal, but also to help in replacing hamas with a legitimate non regime. so this would make it also easier on on israelis and also on the palestinians living in gaza to have some hope for the future. it will take time, but there is some hope here. >> it will take time. tzipi livni, thank you for being with us this morning, as you have been many times over the last few years, for us to provide your analysis and expertise and let's together hope that there are more peaceful times for you in in the region you live. tzipi livni is the former vice president, vice prime minister of israel, former foreign minister of israel, former minister of justice of israel. back with me. nbc's danielle hamamdjian in beitunia in the west bank. danielle, what's the situation where you are? >> well, we're still waiting for the prisoners to be dropped off by bus. we've moved a little bit
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from our previous location because we saw some preparation for some rock throwing. put it that way, they were starting to break up some pieces of stone and rock. so we've moved down here. there's a big presence of medics here because i think they're getting ready. they're expecting perhaps a confrontation between the young men here in the community and idf soldiers. but it is for now, quiet, although a bit chaotic and noisy. i was asking some of the people here why they came. and they said, and i quote to you, we're here to stand with our country. and they'll tell you that they have known other men, young men over the years who were arrested, whether it was because of a social media post, because it was throwing rocks, which is the number one alleged offense for incarceration of children, i should point out, according to save the children, they say that others were arrested preemptively, having done nothing wrong. we were talking
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earlier about the youngest prisoner to be released today. there are 21 children. the youngest was incarcerated at age 13. he's now being released at age 15. we understand that he's from silwan, which is from east jerusalem, a place where many palestinian homeowners are, are, are, are seeing their homes and their livelihoods under threat because of israeli settlers who want to demolish the homes. he was accused of trying to shoot an israeli settler. and so this is the scene here in beitunia. we're waiting. we're waiting for these 69 women who were bused in from haifa in northwestern israel to ofer prison here. and it has been an incredible, incredible is not really the right word. i've been here many times trying to get people, especially younger generation, to speak to me on camera, to tell me their thoughts on the war. you'd be surprised at how many were just saying, there's
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no way i can go on camera. i have to pass checkpoints every day. if they see a post, if they see me on camera, you know, they'll take away my working permits. they'll take, you know, this is the life under occupation. and i go back to save the children, the organization. you know, they'll tell you that israel is the only country in the world that systemically prosecutes children in military courts. there is a two tiered judicial system here, military courts for palestinians and civilian courts for israelis who live in settlements. and israeli settlers, though they have been, you know, though, they burned down palestinian homes and cars and are behind, you know, extreme violence, some of them having been sanctioned by the united states and other western allies. they are tried in civilian courts. a handful of them were held under administrative detention without being charged or tried. they were just released a few days ago by israeli authorities in
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the lead up to the negotiations to the cease fire deal. i'm just seeing a lot of people pointing behind me, so i'm just keeping an eye on what's going on. but we are expecting the palestinian prisoners to be released today, 90 of them today only. but for every civilian hostage to be released from gaza, 30 palestinians will be released for every soldier. we're expecting 50. that is the ratio. we're expecting well over a thousand palestinians to be released in the first stage of this deal, which is expected to last six weeks, 42 days. ali. >> daniel, we'll stay close to you on this. thank you. you're expecting the palestinian prisoners to be released close to where you are in beitunia, west of ramallah, north of jerusalem. daniele hamamdjian in the occupied west bank. for more on this and what the future looks like. and by the way, this is hostage square in tel aviv, where families of the hostages and their supporters and some
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opponents of the hard right israeli government have been gathering every day for the last 15 months. i'm joined by diana buttu. she's a prominent international law and human rights lawyer. she previously served as a legal advisor to mahmoud abbas, the chairman of the palestine liberation liberation organization. she has participated extensively in israeli-palestinian negotiations. diana, how are you feeling this morning as you're this, this evening for you? but as we are watching this all unfold, i'm delighted that finally we're going to see many of these palestinians be returned to their homes, and that in gaza, at least, the bombs will stop. >> people can now look for their dead, bury their dead with dignity, begin the process of reconstructing, especially the health care system. be able to try to put together a semblance of a life. >> so i'm happy that this is now over. >> but at the same time, i'm very worried and i'm very upset that it's taken this long, that it's taken 15 months for this to
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happen, and that we still don't see that there's any accountability for what happened, what israel has done over the course of the past 15 months. >> to be clear, this was essentially the deal that was offered in may. people on both sides of this thing, on all sides, on both sides, because there's more than two sides to this thing. but everybody, everybody's frustrated. it's like we got the same deal that we had in may. hostages would still be alive. lots of palestinians would still have been alive. so it must be very hard to put aside the frustration at the moment to say, okay, you know what? this took a lot longer than it should have. but does this in your mind, as somebody who has spent time as a negotiator, does this bring us one stage closer to something that might look like peace? >> it really depends, ali. you know, a lot of it is that it was clear that all it would have taken was a simple phone call on the part of president biden to make this come to an end, because we saw that when president elect trump stepped in, that there is an end.
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>> now, this isn't to give him the kudos for it, because i do think that there's going to be a big reward to netanyahu. but this could have ended many, many, many months ago. and the fact that we've seen all of this destruction, more palestinians killed the health care system in ruins. >> the destruction of gaza is just terrifying to me, and it shows a real failure of not only u.s. leadership, but international leadership. >> can something be built from this? it really remains to be seen. >> the question is whether the u.s. is actually going to put into place measures to make sure that israel does not do this again. and if we get to a point where israel recognizes that palestinians deserve their freedom, the fact that we're still talking about the lack of palestinian freedom in the year 2025 tells you something. we should be pushing israel to finally end its military occupation. the tools are there. it just needs some some will, some political will to make sure that that happens. >> so tzipi livni just said something interesting to me. i
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don't know if you heard the conversation, but she was talking about we all know that, that hamas was sort of empowered at the cost of the plo, in large part by benjamin netanyahu. it's not a it's not a secret. it's widely reported. but the plo was sort of shut out of this conversation for the last 15 months. tzipi livni disagrees with that. she acknowledges, as you have and others have, that there are problems with the plo or the palestinian authority, as we call it now, in terms of legitimacy on the street, but that israel has contributed to that delegitimization. so what does success look like in terms of who speaks for palestinians? >> this is really important. and here's where it's so important for palestinians to have their voices heard. one of the problems is that we're hearing what israelis want. >> we're hearing what the united states wants. but nobody's asked the palestinians what it is that they want. and this is the essence of self-determination. israel can't seem to get out of its mind that it can't continue to control palestinians in their
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lives. you know, it's sort of ridiculous to think that they should be able to control who leads palestinians. >> and at the same time, nobody says to palestinians, you get to choose who israel's leadership is. and so the real question is whether the world is going to empower and let palestinians do that deciding or whether we're going to go back to the same situation that we were in in the past, where it's israel and the united states who's choosing palestinian leaders. i think that we have to go beyond this. >> it's time for palestinians to lead and to rule themselves and to not live under israel's military rule. this is the time. this is the chance. we have it now. but it requires that the world step up and say, enough is enough. we can't continue with this occupation. >> israel shouldn't be rewarded with what it's carried out with genocide, and instead put into place measures to finally let palestinians be free. >> but you have been involved in very specific things as it relates to these types of negotiations in the past. do you have a mechanism in place that
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you'd like to see or that you think is obvious or perhaps achievable in that there will be possibly civilian leadership of palestinians by palestinians in the near future? >> yes. and i think that the main thing here is elections. we haven't had elections in for palestinians in 20 years. in fact, today is the 20 year anniversary of abu mazen mahmoud abbas being elected into power. he was only elected for four years. and so we have not had elections. there are more than half of the palestinian population has never cast a vote. and the reason is, is that all of the attempts to have elections have been scuttled by israel or by the united states. so now is the time that we need to have elections. palestinians need to choose their own leadership. >> it cannot be the situation where israel is choosing who our leaders are, or saying who our leaders cannot be. >> diana, thank you for joining us this morning. and of course, we've been talking about this for some years together. and you've brought your analysis to my audience and it's very
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helpful. we appreciate it. diana buttu is an international law and human rights lawyer and former legal advisor to the chairman of the palestine liberation organization, mahmoud liberation organization, mahmoud abbas. we'll be right back. prilosec knows, for a fire... one fire extinguisher beats 10 buckets of water, and for zero heartburn 1 prilosec a day... beats taking up to 10 antacids a day. it's that simple, for 24 hour heartburn relief... one beats ten. prilosec otc. power outages can be unpredictable, inconvenient, and disruptive to your life, posing a real threat to your family's comfort and safety. when the power goes out, you have no lights, no refrigeration, no heating or air conditioning. the winds are not letting up at all here. we're going to see some power outages. number one thing to prepare for is extended power outages. are you prepared? you can be with a generac home standby generator. when a power outage occurs, your generac home standby generator automatically powers up, using your home's existing natural gas or propane, so your life goes on without disruption.
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invisible on the skin. it works like a dream. why didn't someone think of this sooner? >> joining me now is. well, first of all, you're taking a look at ream air force base. this is an idf base in southern israel. it is just east of gaza. it's where the three hostages who have been put into red cross custody are headed. this is where the helicopter is. that will fly them to tel aviv to go to the sheba hospital, where raf sanchez is standing by for treatment. so you're looking at the ream air force base. what we don't see yet is the red cross vehicles that are carrying the hostages. but we'll stay on that and make sure that you are kept up to speed on exactly what's going on. the three hostages have been released. the 69 prisoners. palestinian prisoners are being expected in beitunia
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in the west bank. we have reporters in both places. joining me now is the pulitzer prize winning investigative reporter david rohde. he's the nbc news senior executive editor on national security. he's the author of beyond war reimagining american influence in a new middle east, among many other very important books. hey, david, i just want to start by asking you, because you have better experience than most of us do on this sort of thing. in both cases, there are people who've been held in captivity in very bad situations. the one thing we will have endless months to talk about, the politics of all of this and the israeli government, who will run the palestinian authority and or gaza, the people involved. the one good thing about today is that we are starting to see people go home. >> it's a joyous day for israeli families and for palestinian families. in terms of the palestinians that have been held in israeli jails. and it's a miracle in particular for these hostages, given that they were held in a war zone in brutal conditions underground, could
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have died at the hands of their captors, could have been accidentally killed by the israelis, which happened in some cases. so just joy for those families on on both sides and for, you know, most of all the hostages, the prisoners that have been released. >> i just had conversations with aaron david miller and with tzipi livni and with diana buttu. everybody's feeling happy that something is moving forward. no one's convinced we get to phase two. no one's convinced as to how, with an absence of leadership on the palestinian side and a and a real confusion of leadership on the israeli side, we get somewhere else. talk to me about what you see happening now. it would be it would be a goal if we just got through the first six weeks of this thing. the prisoner and hostage exchange. >> yeah. so phase two and three of this agreement are the real challenges. phase three is, if i remember correctly, one sentence long. it just talks about the reconstruction of gaza. so
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that's the real question is who rules gaza, home to 2 million people who've survived this and could, you know, a new palestinian leadership emerge that would displace hamas's rule in gaza? hamas is not going to give that up easily or quickly. and that's just a central question. the palestinian authority is trying to say it can play a role, but that's not clear. and it you know, it's about, in the end, a broader settlement which has been talked about so many times. but that's the key question is who rules gaza? how is it rebuilt. and, you know, we just need a commitment. and that meant much of the process will be determined obviously, by the trump administration. >> yeah. >> and in some weird way, this is essentially the deal that biden announced in may. everybody talked about for about 72 hours, and then it just poof it went away. so that is frustrated. a lot of israelis, particularly the, you know, the parents of one israeli who was killed in that time, one israeli
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hostage who we know was killed. and of course, a lot of palestinians that said, sounds like the trump administration's envoy was helpful to the process. but as aaron david miller says, as of tomorrow at noon, this continues to be trump's problem. what happens to it now happens on trump's watch. there are there are a lot of criticisms of the way the biden administration handled this. there are kudos for the fact that they seem to get this over the finish line right before the end of the administration, but this is trump's problem. and what's your sense of how how it goes forward, given that this does depend on the right amount of american pressure, both on israel and the palestinians? >> this is trump's opportunity. and one person noted to me, you know, talking about trump and, you know, deals of the century, you know, any ability to move forward in a serious way on a resolution of this conflict would be a tremendous achievement for donald trump. saudi arabia is, you know,
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interested in normalizing relations with israel. and it's back to this sort of key issue of, you know, palestinian who who is allowed or who is able to lead on the palestinian side. so there is a chance here for trump. it's a chance for him to make history. and, you know, and it was a positive role played by his envoy in making this happen. but it's going to take long term strategy and long term commitment to negotiations in the future for concrete results, i think, david, thank you. >> david rohde is nbc news senior executive editor of national security, author of multiple books, including where tyranny begins the justice department, the fbi and the war on democracy. we'll continue to cover the story. we'll be right cover the story. we'll be right back. [clears throat] sounds like you need to vaporize that sore throat. vapocool drops? it's sore throat relief with a rush of vicks vapors. ♪ vapocooooool ♪ whoa. vaporize sore throat pain with vicks vapocool drops. suffering for so many
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animals. animals across this country who are abused, abandoned and left outside in the frigid cold to suffer. >> we're seeing extreme frostbite where you have dogs that don't have the use of their limbs because they've been outside for such an extended period of time. >> the suffering is difficult to measure. >> i mean, imagine being chained outside in these subzero degree temperatures, standing in ice and snow, dealing with the harsh wind hitting your body. >> no relief ever for that dog. just imagine the amount of suffering and discomfort that those animals go through. >> it's a season of so much suffering, but you can make it the season of second chances for an animal this winter.
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donald trump's second administration. one of the main characteristics of trump's america first ideology during his first term was something of an isolationist agenda, especially relating to u.s. military involvement overseas. it also involved taking a critical approach to nato and america's traditional allies. now, as we prepare for trump's second term, he's been pitching a much more expansionist approach a manifest destiny, if you will, to america's south. donald trump is calling for the gulf of mexico to be renamed the gulf of america to the north. trump is musing about making canada america's 51st state, referring to canada's outgoing prime minister justin trudeau, as governor trudeau on social media. this call comes amid political upheaval in canada, where trudeau has announced that he will step down from his post as prime minister. and as trump continues to promise sweeping tariffs on canadian exports. notably, the united states and canada are each other's largest trading partners. now, trump is vowing vowing to use, quote, economic force to merge the neighboring nations, describing
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the canada-u.s. border as, quote, an artificially drawn line, end quote. seems, strangely that in this particular case, trump is not that into borders. trump's also talking about acquiring greenland, a self-governing territory which was first settled in the late 10th century by the norse explorer erik the red, and which denmark has controlled since the 14th century. it's not the first time the u.s. has been interested in greenland. the u.s. briefly occupied it during world war two, and reportedly offered denmark $100 million in gold bars for it in 1946. trump also wanted to obtain greenland in 2019, but his casual interest then has turned into what he now is calling a, quote, absolute necessity, end quote, arguing that acquiring greenland is important to america's national security. now, just for some context, russia and china have been making inroads in the arctic, setting up commercial and industrial infrastructure in the area in and around greenland and the surrounding arctic. more generally, greenland has a vast amount of mineral resources.
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trump's talk that has has, by the way, energized the island's independence movement. and greenland, which has its own prime minister, says it's, quote, not for sale and never will be for sale, something he reiterated to trump in a phone call on wednesday. that may not deter trump, who has refused to rule out military intervention in order to take greenland, a threat that has triggered warnings from nato allies france and germany. similarly, trump also has not ruled out using the military in order to take control of the panama canal, which the u.s. turned over to the government of panama via treaty in 1977 after previously controlling it since 1903. for years, trump criticized the late former president jimmy carter for making that deal. recently, trump has said that american ships are being overcharged for the use of the panama canal, and trump is framing this as a way of curbing china's growing influence, similar to the situation in greenland. in the panama canal and like the region, the reactions in greenland, trump's comments have triggered a nationalist reaction
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among the panamanian public and politicians there who view the canal with pride. trump's expansionist rhetoric has sent a geopolitical message that it may longer, may no longer be taboo to buy, sell or steal territory in the modern era. which is interesting because it comes at a time when other world powers are expressing expansionist aspirations as well. you've seen it in russia, with ukraine, china with taiwan, and with some right wing israeli politicians as it relates to the west bank and the golan heights. it also comes at a time of tremendous turbulence and unrest around the world. less than a thousand miles from the panama canal in venezuela, president nicolas maduro has assumed a third term in office, despite evidence suggesting that he lost the recent election and widespread international calls for him to step aside. the united states calls maduro illegitimate and says he has no right to claim the presidency. the biden administration increased the reward for information leading to the arrest of maduro to $25 million, up from the $15 million
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bounty created in 2020 by the trump administration, which also took a hard line approach to maduro even took the unusual step of indicting him. elsewhere, north korea is now fighting for russia alongside russian soldiers against ukraine in russian territory that ukrainians have taken. south korea is in domestic political chaos. the u.s. says there's a genocide in the civil war ravaged sudan, and there's a new government forming following a civil war in syria made up of a band of what used to be isis affiliated thugs. donald trump returns to power in a little over 24 hours. let's talk about the state of the world right now. joining me is ben rhodes. he can help us. he helps people understand america's place in the world on a weekly basishe'sl security advisor to president obama. he's msnbc political contributor. he's a co-host of the important podcast pod save the world. he's the author of the book after the fall the rise of authoritarianism in the world we've made. ben, good to see you. thank you for being with us
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this morning. what do you make of this whole thing? first of all, donald trump, you can like isolationists or not, but it's not really clear what donald trump is. is he an isolationist? is he expansionist, or is this just all transactional to him? >> well, i think it's all transactional. >> you know, i think, you know, isolationism, america first doesn't necessarily just mean isolationism, right? it kind of means a certain mentality, a certain worldview that is more transactional, that cares less about values based alliances or any kind of international order. donald trump doesn't care about an international order. we're just a big country in a transactional world. >> and i think the question begged by your window in there, which is very comprehensive, very good, is both how does donald trump, this disruptive chaos agent, fit into a world that is already in far more chaos today than it was in 2017 when he took office? >> the stakes are just higher right now. and then secondly, is
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this talk of greenland and panama, you know, just kind of part of a window into some tariff based trade wars? or is trump, you know, an aging, autocratic populist? and those types of people actually tend to think that they need to acquire territory as part of their legacy, like the three leaders that, you know, you put up there on the screen. so i think those are the two things that, you know, people should be watching and worried about is like trump in this chaotic world. and then how much is this bluster actually going to lead to, you know, potentially real action that would be even further disruptive to a chaotic world? >> well, one of the things you and i talked right after the election, and one of the things you said wisely, is for journalists. we're going to have to curate better which rabbit holes we go down with donald trump, because some of them might just be rabbit holes. they just might be trolling. but it becomes important, right? i happened to be in toronto when he started talking about the
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51st state, and it dominated the airwaves there. and it will dominate the election because canada will have an election now. and, you know, people will start to worry about these things and vote on them. so not caring about the world order when you're the president of america is a pretty serious matter. >> yeah. >> we've not had this before. >> i mean, i think this is something that is important for people to, to, you know, be clear on. trump the first time sure, he didn't believe in the world order, but everybody around him did. >> rex tillerson, the secretary of state, james mattis, the secretary of defense, mike pence, the vice president, united states, the republican leadership in congress. they were people that were invested in american alliances. they were invested in the idea of international order. and so even though trump was kind of speaking this new language of america first and insulting allies and, you know, cozying up to autocrats like kim jong un, the system kind of still operated globally as if there
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was a recognizable united states. that system has been unraveling over the last few years, anyway, for what we've, you know, for ukraine, for gaza, for, for, for a lot of reasons. so it's already frayed. we're already in a place where there's not the kind of international order we could count on for decades. and now, for the first time, we have a us president that just doesn't care at all and has surrounded himself with other people who either don't care or say they don't care because they know that's what they have to say for donald trump. and that is new terrain for both the united states and the world. and the question is, does that, you know, to be fair to trump, does that position us in a in a different kind of way to get things done and to stand up for our interests or more worrisomely could that unleash kind of an age of, of conflict among these different competitive nationalist great powers? >> he's going to have marco rubio as a secretary of state, and one can have reasonable arguments with marco rubio, but he's generally fits into a sort of a mainstream of thought. he's going to have you may have, we
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don't know, tulsi gabbard as his as his director of national intelligence. you and lots of smart people have expressed remarkable concern about that and the dangers of someone like that who does not, who neither has that experience nor a worldview in which we seem to be adequately concerned about our our allies and our enemies and put them in the right columns. >> yeah. >> and i think the thing that people have to realize about the director of national intelligence is in addition to trying to coordinate the massive apparatus of the u.s. intelligence community, which is, you know, something that she's not qualified to do. she's also the principal filter of information to the president of united states. so every morning, the president, united states, starts his day with a presidential daily briefing prepared for him by the director of national intelligence. and often it's the director of national intelligence who briefs that to the president. or if there's a crisis and everybody's got to gather in the situation room, the first person to talk is usually the director of national intelligence, kind of framing up the issue and saying, hey, here's what we know. and so it's not just that this is a
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person with a worldview that feels kind of almost oppositional to a lot of things the united states has cared about, you know, very solicitous of putin's worldview. obviously, she had her own strange history of going to meet with bashar al assad. it's not just that persons in the government, that person is literally framing up the world. so the president of united states and donald trump knows that, by the way. and so, as worrisome as her potential leadership of the intelligence community is why donald trump wanted somebody like that to be his principal filter for information about the rest of the world. >> yeah, it's weird because you should you should have a good filter, and then you decide whether you're drinking the water from it or not. this is this is a strange situation coming to my world for a second. the tariffs with canada, they are each other's largest trading partners. mexico is a massive trading partner to donald trump argues that he you know, some of the reason he won the election was either was immigration or inflation, the tariffs he's talking about and the tariffs that his, his his treasury secretary nominee may actually
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support are only going to be inflationary. >> yeah. and like first of all, what is the problem that we're trying to solve with canada. >> yes. yes we're wondering about that too. >> yeah. because i actually i don't it's not i'm not a tariff guy, but i get what he's potentially doing with mexico. he's trying to kind of enlarge the conversation and say, hey, we're going to put these tariffs on you. and that's usually done in a trade dispute. he's going to say, we want you to do these ten things related to the border. and so at least makes it china. you know we obviously have huge, you know trade imbalances and grievances with i don't even know the problem he's trying to solve with canada. and i think what americans need to think about is we get a lot of really basic stuff from canada. you know, this is like, you know, food would, you know, like things that allow the economy to function. and if you're slapping 20 to 25% tariffs on those things for no clear purpose,
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you're going to cause huge inflationary pressure potentially. and to what end? what are we trying what american grievance are we really trying to solve with canada? that's what is further baffling about this. >> let's go more broadly, february 24th, 23rd, 24th is the third anniversary of the full scale invasion of ukraine by russia. you saw mike turner got removed from the intel? the house intel committee the other day seems to be perhaps part of this that, that that he doesn't see eye to eye with trump on on russia and ukraine. what do you think happens? >> i think, you know, this is one of these cases where the administration is filled with this kind of mixed message, right? because you obviously have had what trump's said throughout the campaign, which doesn't he hasn't necessarily said we have to cut them off entirely. but obviously that's, you know, the gist of his message. but, you know, j.d. vance has been among the most outspoken critics of aid to ukraine. but then at the same
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time, you've got a marco rubio or a waltz with national security advisor who've been more conventional republican supporters of ukraine. i think what trump wants to do, above all, is to demonstrably move this into some negotiation so that that's how it looks different. and i think that that might not necessarily mean he's going to cut ukraine off on day one, but it does mean that the united states is going to be going from, you know, supporting ukraine in a kind of fully, you know, on their side way to the united states, trying to reposition itself as a bit of a broker. and also it's sending a message to ukraine. this assistance isn't permanent. in fact, if i'm ukraine, i'm not counting on, you know, an annual re-up of 60 billion plus in assistance, which is going to change the political dynamic around the war itself, because psychologically, where russia already has an advantage, where they're already pushing forward that front line psychologically, russia now knows, hey, the united states is probably not going to be there. even if they're there this year, they're not going to be there next year
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or the year after that with trump. and everybody knows that. and so that changes the dynamic to both create an urgency around getting into a negotiation, but also potentially weakening ukraine's hand at that negotiating table, because they may just feel like they have to take not the deal they want, but the best deal they can get in that context. >> ben, good to see you as always. thank you for joining us. ben rhodes is the former deputy national security advisor to president obama, co-host of pod save the world and author of the book after the fall the rise of authoritarianism in the world of authoritarianism in the world speaker: my little miracle is beckett. [christina perri, "a thousand years"] i have died every day waiting for you. we wouldn't be where we are without saint jude. and in turn, we wouldn't be where we are without those people that have donated. ahh, yellow! didn't pass the tissue test? buckle up! whoa! there's toothpaste white, and there's crest 3dwhitestrips white. whitens like a 400 dollar professional treatment. pilot: prepare for non-stop smiles. crest. we all know that words have power.
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>> hotel trivago the second inauguration of donald trump morning joe kicks off coverage. then at 10 a.m, rachel maddow and team will bring you key moments of the day, followed by analysis from our prime time anchors as the new term begins tomorrow, beginning at 6:00 on msnbc. >> breaking news. a fast moving disaster in california. breaking news israel and hamas will enter a ceasefire in the nation's capital, philadelphia. el paso, the palisades from msnbc world headquarters. >> on joe biden's last full day in office this morning, the president issued a new round of pardons and commutations. he commuted the sentences of two people and pardoned five. included on that list is the famous civil rights activist marcus garvey, who was pardoned posthumously. garvey was convicted of mail fraud in 1923. a federal crime, kemba smith was
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also among those pardoned. kemba was a middle class young woman. a college student, she fell in love with her boyfriend, only to discover she says, that he was selling drugs. when she learned his secret. she says he became abusive and coerced, coerced her into keeping his secret. she never did drugs herself. she never handled them. she never dealt them. but kemba took the fall. she landed in prison for nonviolent drug charges for a 24 year sentence. her family and the naacp legal defense fund fought to appeal her case and get her out. after six and a half years in prison, her sentence was commuted by president clinton in 2000. now, today, just this morning, 24 years later, kemba has been fully pardoned by president biden. joining me now is kemba smith herself, as well as janai nelson, president and director counsel of the naacp legal defense fund. thanks to both of you for joining us today. great to have you back on the show. kemba. congratulations to you. i
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told a very small slice of your story. it's much more important and much bigger than that. so tell me give me a few more of the highlights here. >> first and foremost just thank you so much for bringing us on. and actually it's the media that has helped to uplift the stories and the power of storytelling. and so while i was incarcerated, after being sentenced to 24.5 years after giving birth to my son while i was incarcerated, i was on this journey to fight for my freedom, and i'm very grateful to the legal defense fund that took on the case and the many individuals that supported the efforts. but basically, i'm very transparent. ever since my release about my story, about the choices that i made in hopes of, you know, preventing other young people from going down the same path and also preventing other women
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from getting caught up in relationships that turn abusive. and basically, i was in a situation where i didn't know how to get out of it, and i didn't know how to get the proper help to get out of it as well. so, you know, on today, on this momentous occasion, i dropped to my knees. and i thank god on this sunday morning for this opportunity. and on the fact of this, it's doctor martin luther king holiday weekend, and it represents freedom and redemption. and the work that i've been doing, i believe, is a ministry because it's never been just about just me. it's been about humanizing people, humanizing stories, and affording people second chances that deserve to be back in society and are no threat to public safety. >> let's talk about that. jenny, how did your organization, the naacp legal defense fund, get involved in the case? and tell me about i mean, today is an important day, not not just for
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kemba, but for so many other people who were convicted of nonviolent drug offenses who spent disproportionate amounts of time either in jail or or under conviction. >> that's absolutely right. >> we got involved in kemba's case early on by virtue of the brilliance of one of my predecessors, elaine jones, who heard the story of kemba smith in emerge magazine. so again, kemba was corrected, noting that media plays an important part of lifting up these stories. and she saw that there was a young woman caught in the crosshairs of a discriminatory and very draconian criminal legal system. >> and we invested the resources of the legal defense fund to help represent her. >> and it was a long and arduous fight that involved not only the incredible lawyers at ldf, but also kemba's parents, gus and odessa smith, who were champions
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of their daughter. it involved civil society organizations and the delta sigma theta sorority, and many other groups that stood behind this poster child of everything that is wrong with our criminal legal system. and you know what, ali? i will say that if we take nothing away from this moment is to take away the idea that second chances are not just about the individuals who have been ensnared in our criminal legal system. we also have a second chance as a society, as lawmakers, as politicians, as as policy makers to create new opportunities for public safety that aren't punitive, that aren't harsh and dehumanizing. we have a second chance to correct the failed policies of the past, and what president biden has done by commuting the sentences of over 4000 individuals in just the
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past few weeks, he is proving that we've made some bad choices in the past, and that there is redemption and rehabilitation that we can use to better our society as a whole, to make families whole and communities whole, as opposed to privileging punishment and retribution. we have choices to make. and i'm so grateful that president biden chose to use his final remaining hours in office to liberate wonderful people like kemba, who is an extraordinary human being and whose story is sum is one that is shared by many. >> i thank you for this. and kemba i think it's just important for us to note that while you were involved in the fight for your own justice, you got involved in the fight for justice for others. and that's the strength of the human spirit. that's that's amazing. and i suspect that fight continues long after today. >> and can i make one last comment? and in fighting for others, my friend michelle west, her sentence was also commuted
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today. so i thank president biden. i thank his administration, the pardon attorney, for this wonderful outcome. and i hope that you all continue to uplift stories so that we won't have continuous fear mongering in our country of incarcerated people and former formerly incarcerated people. so thank you for this opportunity to celebrate. >> we will make that commitment to you to continue to tell these stories. thank you. congratulations. kemba smith a criminal justice advocate janay good to see you again. janai nelson is the president and director counsel of the naacp legal defense fund. that does it for me. thank you for watching. inside with jen psaki begins right now. okay. >> to say there's a lot going on right now would be a bit of an understatement. we are now 24 hours out from donald trump's inauguration, and we're also following breaking news out of the middle east as three hostages arrive back in israel. i'll talk to deputy national security advisor john finer abou
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