>> okay, a very quick programing note before we go, msnbc is going to be your one stop shop for inauguration coverage starting tomorrow at 10 a.m. eastern. i'll be at the big table with rachel maddow and the rest of the team. everything you see on that screen will have special coverage all day long, and then we'll be back here tomorrow night at 8 p.m. eastern. for now, stay right where you are, because there's much more news coming up on msnbc. >> on this new hour of amen. it is almost time for trump's return. new reporting on what he will do on day one. we're going

to talk to congressman lloyd doggett about it. plus, biden's lasting legacy in the middle east as the cease fire between israel and hamas takes effect and project 2025 is alive and well, how big of a role will it play in the next four years? i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's do it. inaugural celebrations are well underway before president elect donald trump is officially sworn in tomorrow. tonight, trump took center stage at his maga victory rally in washington, dc. >> we're going to stop the invasion of our borders. we're going to reclaim our wealth. we're going to unlock the liquid gold that's right under our feet. get radical left woke ideologies the hell out of our military and out of our government. >> trump's remarks stand in stark contrast to those of president biden, who spent part

of his last full day in office at the international african american museum. in his speech, he reflected on the power and importance of black history. >> from slavery to emancipation, from the civil war to the civil rights movement, from the reckoning on race. today, there has been a long line of black patriots who've helped make the promise of america real for all americans. >> now this also comes the day before martin luther king junior day, which is also happens to coincide with inauguration day this year. surprisingly, this overlap is something king's own daughter, bernice king, is happy about. take a listen. >> we have to always remain vigilant, no matter who is in office. from the federal level to the state and the municipal level, we have a responsibility to the freedom struggle every generation does, and it's not going to be easy. but i think it's wonderful that this occurs on the king holiday, the

inauguration, because it reminds us of king. it points us back to king. it says when we move forward, you all, we got to do it in the spirit of king. >> king isn't the only one asking us to pay close attention to trump's words. tomorrow, reverend william barber, the civil rights leader who will deliver the keynote speech at the annual king day service at ebenezer baptist church, is even calling for prophetic listening sessions. in fact, organizers of that ceremony purposely scheduled it so that it wouldn't conflict with trump's speech, barber explained. we need to decipher that speech so we know where our battle lines are and what our struggles will be. doctor king didn't turn away from struggle. he turned toward it. the split screen between donald trump's inauguration and the services and marches honoring martin luther king's mission and legacy is already jarring. but consider the fact that tomorrow we could have been watching the swearing in ceremony of america's first woman president, as well as our country's first black and south asian president. instead, we'll

be watching president trump, a candidate who repeatedly questioned harris's blackness while running against her. with me now is democratic congressman lloyd doggett of texas, who will be speaking at an afl-cio martin luther king junior event in his home state tomorrow. congressman, it's great to see you again. thank you so much for making time for us. why is commemorating mlk tomorrow important to you, and how do you plan to carry on his legacy during trump's second administration? >> well, thank you eamon. so very important. and what is between the vision of doctor king and this wannabe authoritarian who says he'll be dictator on day one? for me, doctor king represents a commitment to change, which we need so much. but nonviolent change. we can't imagine him ordering people to attack our capitol and our police officers that were guarding the capitol, as happened on january 6th. we also see him as someone who is committed to equal opportunity

for all, whereas trump seems to be only committed to the maga, to having maga civil servants serve him a host of over 100 executive orders that he plans to issue tomorrow. really? edicts from someone who views himself as all powerful? i think our job very much in line with what reverend doctor barber and reverend king said, is to focus and listen carefully to his words. to too many americans really failed to recognize the importance of his words when he said he wanted his army to be more like hitler. and his other comments during the campaign. now we need to listen to his words carefully in order to define how we can counter a march to authoritarianism, and really to descending into fascism. >> i'm sure you have seen this in the past. congressman trump comparing himself to doctor king, falsely saying that his speech on january 6th before the attempted insurrection at the capitol had a larger crowd than king's iconic march on

washington in 63. you know, i'm curious to get your thoughts. what do you make of him and maga trying to co-opt and whitewashing mlk's legacy in this country? >> well, he's desperate to cling to anyone who is revered as much as doctor king. is. this participation i plan for tomorrow is what i've done throughout my career, either here or in san antonio, where one of the members of the king family will be leading the march tomorrow to be there to remind young americans of what african americans went through to reach full citizenship and rights as americans, and how important diversity is to us. something that donald trump continues to reject. >> i want to switch gears to trump's cabinet picks and loyal allies, many of whom have a long history of opposing policies that support black americans. stephen miller, who was tapped to oversee immigration again, has made clear that he intends to weaponize civil rights

legislation against so-called anti-white racism. do you anticipate us seeing this backlash over the next four years, this kind of weaponizing of civil rights in defense of what, you know, as so-called anti-white racism? >> sadly, i do. clearly, white nationalists are celebrating the trump election. he has voiced support for that kind of thinking, to take these hard fought after pieces of legislation and turn them against people of color in this country is such a terrible reversal. but when you have trump with basically no restraint, a supreme court that would grant him immunity. a supreme court that came within one vote last week of saying that he couldn't even be sentenced for his crimes in new york, suggests that we have to be in the house of representatives, where the margin is so tight, a real bulwark for liberty, and live and demonstrate our commitment

to doctor king's vision. >> what will you and your fellow democrats, congressmen, who are part of, or will be part of the resistance to trump's administration, do. i mean, some of your colleagues on capitol hill and on the state have already expressed their willingness to work with him. you got somebody like john fetterman going down to mar-a-lago to effectively kiss the ring, but what do you think you and others can do, especially on things like immigration on day one? >> well, i think that we do have a responsibility to try to protect vulnerable communities to the best we can. but in congress, the margin in the house is so tight. 215 to 220 when everyone is seated. and i think we'll be looking for any republicans that are not totally under the thumb of donald trump, not like mike johnson, who called requires every instruction to come from trump. and we'll be trying to keep our democratic caucus as diverse as

it is together to stand up for some of these principles. and wherever there's an opportunity to find common ground. and i don't see much of it at this point. but wherever there is, we should seek it, and we should pick our fights carefully, and we must engage the american people. we can't do it alone in the house of representatives. we have to continue, as you do so well on this show. inform the american people of what is happening and engage them in communities all over america. stand up for democracy, for freedom and the vision of equal opportunity that doctor king embodied. >> all right, congressman lloyd doggett, thank you so much. it's always a pleasure. thanks for coming on. >> thank you so much. thanks, roy. >> thank you. appreciate it sir. next up, the trump nominee with a clear connection to project a clear connection to project 2025. when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... ...being me. keep being you... ...and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete,

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bureaucracies that are weaponized against the american people. when you have even within omb. no, sir, not within omb. >> that was russell vought, trump's pick to lead the office of management and budget, also known as omb, one of the leading coauthors of project 2025 vote, is a staunch advocate for re-implementing a schedule f, which would allow trump to fire thousands of career civil servants and replace them with loyalists. he also supports a plan touted by trump that would give the president control over federal spending, taking that power away from congress. my next guest, msnbc daily writer and editor hayes brown, argues vote wants to make congress obsolete. he joins me now. it's great to have you back. it's a friend of yours, russell. i feel like you've dedicated a lot of your time tracking him and keeping eyes on what he is saying. >> well, because he's one of the people who flies relatively under the radar compared to a lot of the guys he comes across, like, his demeanor is like this kind of like statesman, bureaucrat, respectable spectacled owl like guy, like

sitting across from him. he doesn't yell. he doesn't scream. but of all the guys that trump has collected and trump collects, a lot of guys, i think vote is probably one of the most dangerous of them, precisely because he's not out there yelling, screaming for attention. he fully believes that the federal government is something that should fall under the complete and total control of the presidency, that the president should be the supreme of the three branches, that they should not be co-equal, that the president should be able to hire and fire whomever that career civil servants are weaponized against the american people. like he said in that clip, which to him means that they disagree with trump and will go out of their way to sabotage his agenda. the so-called deep state is what vote is against, and he doesn't believe that congress should be able to set spending policies without the president being able to come in and say, i don't want to spend that money, so i won't. >> yeah. and to your point, i was going to read this from the piece that you wrote. votes plan

is to potentially order billions of dollars in spending cuts to medicaid, housing benefits, food assistance, education funding, and policies that trump personally does not want to see money go towards. now, in a normal, healthy society where you had a house speaker with a spine, you would say, hey, this guy is going to push back because congress still controls the power of the purse and controls the funding that goes to these projects. in this world of trump 2.0, where mike johnson is a subservient, obedient whatever, you're not going to get that fight right. >> you're not going to get that fight there. you're not going to get in the senate, which is who would confirm votes like vote in his in his confirmation hearing, which you showed a clip from there, was so evasive about what he intends to do when he's actually in office. but as you mentioned, he helped he coauthored he authored a chapter in chapter on project 2025 about how to use omb as a basically a weapon for the presidency, since so much of the federal government flows through it. it's an agency that not many people understand, but it

touches on every aspect of what the federal government does. it controls it, looks at every regulation that goes out to become a rule in policy. it controls how the various departments and agencies are spending the money that congress allocates. and what vote believes is that the impoundment control act of 1974, which says that the president can't just say i'm holding on to or impounding these funds that go to projects that congress has said they should go to. he doesn't believe it's constitutional. trump has said on the campaign trail he doesn't believe it's constitutional. so the question is, how much will congress permit when vote stands up and says, okay, all this money that you said needs to go towards medicaid, towards snap funding will, and but we're going to take it away. will congress push back and say, no, we said to give that money, we're going to do something about this? or will they say, thank you for doing our job for us? let's keep moving on. >> how can and how should democrats resist, if you will,

you know, or stand up to people like vogt and the rest of trump's cabinet nominees? >> i think it's difficult because, you know, they don't have a majority in the senate. they because of the way the filibuster has been carved out, they don't have the power to filibuster and stop trump's cabinet nominees. they can slow them down as much as possible. but you never know. the senate might just say, hey, that a recess appointment idea that we said was a bad idea, we're going to go for it because democrats are being so obstructive now in the house, democrats, like congressman doggett was saying, need to find areas of weakness. the little bits chip away, chip away at some of the support, either from the moderates in swing districts or rile up the people who are super involved about getting power back to congress, like rand paul, chairman of the committee that oversaw votes hearing. you would think that he would be against confirming a man like this who says congress needs to have less power. more power needs to go to the executive. when rand paul,

the senator, has been so in favor of clawing back some of the power from the executive back to the legislature, that you would think he would say, this person is not a viable candidate. >> but as we've seen time and time again, republicans continue to demonstrate they have no backbone when it comes to anything to do with donald trump. >> correct. that is exactly how this vote is going to be the next director of omb. the question is, how much does he get away with without pushback from the other branches of the government? >> all right, hayes brown, good to see you as always, my friend. take care. stay warm. next up, president biden's legacy in the president biden's legacy in the middle east. we break that down. what are folks 60 and older learning these days? new perspectives! ♪♪ how to fix things. ♪♪ fun recip... (high pitched sound) (high pitched sound)

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he said when he was asked about the first time he used the word ceasefire with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. >> when i went to israel immediately after their attack on by hamas eight days later or whatever it was, and i told them we were going to help. and i said, but bibi, i said, you can't be carpet bombing these communities. and he said to me, well, you did it. you carpet bombed. not his exact words, but you carpet bombed berlin. you dropped a nuclear weapon. you killed thousands of innocent people because you had to in order to win a war. i said, but that's why we came up with the un. new new deal by which what we what we would do relative to civilians and military. >> and just to be clear, benjamin netanyahu is now a man wanted for war crimes by the

international criminal court. that biden statement may be one day used against him in a court of law. but what does it say about joe biden? he admitted that he knew what netanyahu was planning to do to the palestinian civilian population in gaza. all the way back in october of 2023, and yet he still supported it. while it's revealing that biden is openly admitting he knew what netanyahu's intentions were, it really was not a mystery. israeli leaders were saying them out loud. their rhetoric was used as a basis for south africa's genocide case against israel in the international court of justice, and in january of last year, the icj found that israel was plausibly committing genocide, a finding israel immediately dismissed. but the dangerous rhetoric wasn't just happening in israeli society. and just like after nine over 11 and the lead up to the iraq war, violent rhetoric and bigotry was also mixed with misinformation and disinformation right here in the u.s. and just like the iraq war, it came from both the media

and the white house. >> i never really thought that i would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children. >> of course, the white house had to immediately correct joe biden there and tell reporters that he had actually not seen any evidence of this. but biden repeated that same false claim again just a month later. another thing that's notable about biden now saying he first mentioned ceasefire to netanyahu in october of 23, is that it is the opposite of what he was telling the american people at the time. in fact, here's what the white house press secretary, karine jean-pierre, said in that same month, when she was asked what the president thought of congresswoman rashida tlaib, ilhan omar and cori bush calling for a ceasefire. >> we believe they're wrong. we believe they're repugnant and we believe they're disgraceful. >> a month later, as the palestinian death toll was

rapidly climbing, joe biden was asked directly about the prospects for a ceasefire. >> what are the chances of the gaza ceasefire? none. no possibility. >> but then something changed. polls began to show that most americans, and especially in biden's base, were against that disastrous policy. hundreds of black pastors warned biden that he would cause democrats the election by supporting israel's assault on gaza. several members of the biden administration resigned in protest, sharing their stories on this show and others. american college students and people all around the world started protesting, and in michigan, the uncommitted movement organized over 100,000 voters in that swing state to push biden to stop netanyahu and to save his presidency. so without a clear explanation, the biden administration changed their rhetoric, and they were now supposedly for a ceasefire. and days before the michigan primary, this was the president right here in new york, eating

an ice cream with seth meyers. >> my national security advisor tells me that we're close. we're close. it's not done yet. and my hope is by next monday, we'll have a cease fire. >> for the next several months, the israeli press regularly published stories about how it was netanyahu that was sabotaging the cease fire and hostage release talks every time. but here at home, anthony blinken would constantly tell the american public that it was hamas. i regularly, regularly warned on this show that it wasn't deep fakes that would make biden look weak and pathetic. it was netanyahu. he would taunt joe biden with videos like this one, complaining that u.s. weapons weren't getting there in time, and the biden administration would then send more. biden told my colleague jonathan capehart that israel, invading the densely packed palestinian city of rafah was his red line, and months later, nbc news got inside and reported that rafah had turned, had been turned into a ghost town and now uninhabitable. palestinians and

human rights groups warned that israel was following through on their threats to stop humanitarian aid from getting into gaza. and rather than forcing israel to allow aid to get into gaza, biden announced that the u.s. military would build a floating pier on the gaza coast. but that pier quickly turned into an international embarrassment, and due to bad weather, it only operated for 20 days before it was dismantled. it barely got any aid in and still cost taxpayers $230 million. and unfortunately, that's not all that we lost. on october 31st, 23 year old sergeant andre stanley died from injuries he suffered while serving on that temporary gaza pier mission. and you've probably never even heard of his name. sergeant stanley's death was only made public by the department of defense five days after it happened on election day. predictably buried in a chaotic news cycle. at one point during a flare up in the region, biden declared, if you harm an american, we will respond. so who will have to

answer for sergeant stanley's death? and what about jacob flickinger, a us citizen and humanitarian aid worker killed by israel in its strike on world central kitchen aid workers last april? what about aisha nur, a 26 year old american citizen from seattle, shot in the head and killed by an israeli soldier at a west bank protest last september. time and time again, we were told that empathy was joe biden's superpower. and time and time again, he showed none. not for the tens of thousands of palestinians killed at the hands of israel, or even for those american citizens. i should note iggy's family says that they still have not gotten a condolence phone call from the biden administration. we were also told that biden and harris were working tirelessly for a ceasefire, but the biden administration vetoed four gaza ceasefire resolutions at the united nations security council. and now that a ceasefire has gone through, reporting shows that it was president elect trump adviser steve witkoff that played a big role in pushing it through. but it was one of

biden's own diplomats that shed some new light on the impact of biden's middle east policy. biden's ambassador to israel, jack lew, was quoted last week saying, standing with israel for these past 15 months with huge opposition in the media in parts of his own party, you could argue that it contributed to making his challenge for reelection insurmountable. well guess what? a new poll last week actually backed that up. the survey from yougov found that 29% of americans who supported biden in 2020 sat out the 2024 election, specifically due to u.s. support for israel's war on gaza. keep in mind, democrats lost the race due to a huge drop off in voter turnout on their side. while joe biden secured some major domestic achievements for this country, he will sadly be remembered for two things first, the mass killing and utter destruction of gaza that was made with american weapons and diplomatic support. and second, handing the keys to the white house back to a maga

movement that is now stronger and more dangerous than ever. a legacy of shame and infamy. with me now to unpack all of this is msnbc political analyst peter beinart. he is the author of the beinart notebook on substack and has an upcoming book called being jewish after the destruction of gaza. peter, it's good to have you with us. i want to ask you and i made the case for how i see joe biden's legacy, certainly in foreign policy. but what do you see as joe biden's legacy when it comes to the foreign policy? >> the tragedy is that the centerpiece of joe biden's foreign policy and domestic policy was going to be the rule of law. he was going to challenge not only the donald trump's of the world, but the xi jinping's of the world and the vladimir putin's of the world around what they called the liberal international order. the idea that you couldn't attack your neighbors, that all people had the right to equal rights and equal dignity, that was going to be the center, the moral centerpiece of his administration and his policies

on gaza. for the heart out of that, because the world could see that the us was violating the very things that it claimed to believe in the international rule of law, the idea that all human beings deserve protection. the idea that that palestinian lives are equal to israeli lives, all of those things were catastrophically damaged and have undermined america's ability to fight authoritarianism around the world and at home as well. >> what did you make of jack lew's comments there? and this idea that if israel is now seen as a political liability for democrats, that may force them to change policy in the future? i'm not sure that's what he intended with those comments, but that's how i saw them, that the president took this position of being staunchly supportive of israel to the detriment of his own party and to the future of america. >> i think there's going to be a huge fight inside the democratic party, and we'll see it in 2028, in the democratic primary. there are going to be some

politicians, i think, who see this huge gap between where democratic voters are. democratic voters don't support unconditional support for benjamin netanyahu and this israeli government. they profoundly oppose it. there's a big gap between democratic voters and democratic politicians. there will be democratic presidential candidates who try to speak to that. and i think there will be a titanic fight within the party over the future of policy towards israel and palestine. >> earlier today, peter biden, joe biden gave what are likely his final remarks in south carolina. he touched on the importance of history and said, quote, some injustices are so heinous that they can never be buried, no matter how hard people try. if i were to use that same logic, how important will documenting the suffering of the palestinians and the israeli hostages be as both sides try to find some form of reconciliation after all this? >> this is going to be something that americans and people around the world are talking about for generations. if you just look at

the number of children killed in gaza. you compare it. this is may go down as so far the greatest human rights catastrophe of the 21st century, certainly per capita. and it's one that was actually facilitated by american weapons and american diplomatic support. that is going to haunt american foreign policy and americans for generations. >> and so to that point, how badly has this handling of october 7th and post, october 7th and the gaza war, how badly has it set america reputationally. and from a national security perspective, you think in the region and around the world? >> well, look at look at what we're doing with the international criminal court, right. the very court that we wanted to act against, vladimir putin, we're now basically congress is basically passing laws to sanction it. right? it makes our efforts to hold people like putin or xi jinping or anybody else. it makes it a joke when we basically defenestrate the very institution that is

trying to apply this rule of law. and i also just because today, today. thank, thank god there were three israeli women hostages who were released. it's also really important to remember that this war has been terrible for them as well. it was clear from the beginning that the only thing that was going to free most of these hostages was going to be a cease fire and the end to the war. and you quoted biden's secretary as saying that that position, which was the position that would have saved palestinian lives and israeli lives, the biden administration called it repugnant. >> yeah. i think about that moment and how what a missed opportunity that was for the us to come out and demand a cease fire much earlier. let's try to look ahead if we can. not necessarily a lot of optimism, but perhaps the dynamics created by this cease fire, if it does stick throughout the three phases, as well as with president trump set to return to power, is there a window of opportunity or at least a new dynamic that can be created? or are we still likely to see the

same fundamental issues unresolved? >> there's a window of opportunity, but the trump administration has to do what the biden administration never done did, which is use american pressure if left to his own devices, benjamin netanyahu will let this agreement end after the first stage because he's afraid of his government falling. only intense pressure from the united states can lead this cease fire to turn into an actual end to the war, which would require the israeli government to do something it has never been willing to do, which is to talk about who governs gaza after this war. you can't end the war unless you talk about what happens after the war. that will not happen unless the trump administration pressures israel to do it. >> all right. peter beinart. peter, thank you so much. it's good to see you. as always. take care. next up, why donald trump is still pushing a one sided fight against the late president fight against the late president jimmy carter. ♪♪ well would you look at that? jerry, you've got to see this.

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seeing in washington that day. >> deadline white house, weekdays from 4 to 6 on msnbc. >> president elect donald trump has said that his inauguration speech tomorrow will focus on unity, strength and fairness. and those are some big claims for someone who is still locked in a petty, one sided fight with former president jimmy carter, whose funeral he attended just over a week ago. following a long standing tradition, the capitol hill flag was lowered to honor carter for a 30 day mourning period. but just days after his death, trump posted, quote, because of the death of president jimmy carter, the flag may, for the first time ever, during an inauguration of a future president, be at half mast. nobody wants to see this, and no american can be happy about it. let's see how it plays out. it's unclear who these americans were who were deeply unhappy about this before trump made it an issue. and yet, as

you can imagine, trump's allies quickly took on this fight, despite the optics of entering the ring against the memory of a former president who died last month. on tuesday, speaker mike johnson ordered the flag at the capitol capitol building to be raised at full staff for trump's inauguration. republican governors across the nation from greg abbott of texas to ron desantis, florida, and key and kay ivey of alabama also all paused the half flag mourning period for carter at their state houses and ordered it be raised at full staff for inauguration day. all of this because trump couldn't stand sharing even a little bit of his spotlight on his big day, especially to someone who has criticized him. jimmy carter told the washington post in 2018 that trump was a disaster in human rights and taking care of people and treating people equally. predictably, trump would later lash out on carter in 2019, calling him a nice man but a

terrible president who was trashed by his own party. and more recently, the president elect has repeatedly railed against carter for his panama canal treaties, only taking a break from this line of attacks on the day of his funeral back in 2018. trump also refused to lower the white house flag to half staff following the death of another critic of his, senator, john mccain, from arizona. but then white house chief of staff john kelly reportedly talked him out of it. but now, in trump's second administration, there are no john kelly's left. anyone willing to speak up against him is long gone from his inner circle. and republicans in power, as we have seen, will gladly carry trump's water and continue his tradition of grudges, pettiness and grievances. work, play, blink, relief. >> work. >> play. blink. relief. >> play. blink. relief. >> the only three (auctioneer) let's start the bidding at 5 million dollars.

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industrial complex, and he warned americans about the rise of artificial intelligence. it was a last minute warning that had many of us asking why now? that included a prominent bioethicist who wrote that he was thrilled to hear biden call out the tech oligopoly and its inordinate power. he added, though, unfortunately, like eisenhower, he waited for his farewell address to put out his warning. nevertheless, let's have a rigorous conversation about the oligopoly, what it wants and how it exerts power. well, we're going to do that just here. i'm joined now by the author of that post, wendell wallach, emeritus chair of the technology and ethics study group at the yale interdisciplinary center for bioethics. he also wrote a dangerous master how to keep technology from slipping beyond our control. wendell, it's great to have you on the show. i can't think of a better person to have this conversation with. elaborate on those thoughts that you recently shared. is this a sincere warning? and if it is coming just as he is leaving

office, then what should we really be talking about when it comes to the tech oligopoly? >> well, thank you for inviting me and for bringing up these questions. i think it's a sincere warning. i suspect even biden has little idea of the inordinate power and the way it is growing of the tech oligopoly, which includes not only the owners and runners of the large tech corporations, but also venture capitalists and others who have made billions of dollars investing in technology. it is actually expected that ai alone will start to generate $10 trillion a year within another decade or so. and the sad part about that is that 90% of that's going to go to the tech oligopoly. it's going to go to the same people and their and their power will grow exponentially. now, up to now, their focus has mainly been upon the legislature and getting what

we sometimes call corporate capture of the legislatures, making sure that they won't enact laws that the tech oligopoly thinks is against their interests. and they do it in a relatively simple way. of course, there are some legislators, legislators who understand technology deeply, but many of them don't. and the tech oligopoly will say to them, or at least their lobbyists will say to them, we're in this competition with china. we can't be beaten. and their technology is very complicated. so you won't fully understand the ways in which the laws you enact may interfere with the innovation. so leave all of that to us. trust that us. oh, and by the way, here's $100,000 for your reelection campaign. >> i know that you've spent many years studying ethics in artificial intelligence, and have talked about how those concerned around ai ethics have

been sidelined in recent years, and perhaps we've started to focus on the shiny objects that ai can solve for us in terms of problems in our world, but just talk to us about the consequences of these ai ethics being pushed aside and ignored. >> well, let's understand that ai is not one thing. ai is many things, and it's being implemented in nearly every facet of life. and again, many of the ways in which it will be implemented will will better the human condition, will better medicine, will contribute in other areas. but there's also some very dangerous prospects and some of the near term dangerous prospects are that ai is not really intelligent, at least not not as we see it today. and it isn't being embedded in all kinds of systems. and it's largely a statistical machine that at times will make disastrous decisions, at times, will make

wrong decisions at times, will make risky decisions, meaning low probability decisions, but ones that, if made, will have a very high impact in the longer term. there's concern about how ai that is more and more intelligent. and really the competition right now is to create ai with artificial general intelligence, which means comparable to smart human beings, that it will actually finally bring about that long term concern of technological unemployment, where ai destroys a large number of jobs. and then there is the concern about ai being introduced into the military. and i actually taking disastrous decisions, which i think we'll talk more about in a minute or two. and of course, the long term concern that potentially, if ai is, can truly be much smarter than humans, it may be unfriendly to humans. and do we have any way of ensuring

that ai decision making will be in our interest? >> is there a scenario in which there will always be a kill switch for ai that we at any point, if we feel that ai has gotten out of hand or dangerous, or poses a threat to a system of ours, that we can just shut it down. >> there have been a number of papers that have largely demonstrated that there is no prospect of an effective kill switch, and so far, there's no prospect of our ensuring that ai will be safe. in fact, much more money is going into expanding ai's capability and power than ai safety. nor is any work being done on ensuring that ai will have the capacity to make ethically significant decisions, or even recognize that it's in an ethically significant situation. >> i do want to go back to the point that we were talking about

in the and the role of ai in lethal, autonomous weapons like lavender. that is an ai based program that has been developed by the israeli army that has been widely used in bombing gaza. we reported on that here on this show. you've proposed that they should be banned under international humanitarian law. what are the dangers of these kinds of weapons and the use of ai in a warfare context? do you put them on par with the dangers of the nuclear weapons that were created in the 40s? >> we're talking about nuclear weapons. plus, imagine that there was a nuclear weapons system that an ai system could deploy with little or no human decision making in the loop. so this is something that was not being thought about at the un or at the, at the reflections on whether to ban or at least regulate ai systems. early on,

people were thinking of these systems largely as drones that picked out one target and then killed that person, or perhaps some ai soldiers on the battlefield. that would be substitutes for losing our own soldiers. but what lavender is showing is what some of us have long suspected is that an ai system could be deployed that would actually be giving targets for hundreds, if not thousands of people. and if indeed the israel government, the israeli army is using lavender. this is truly a tragedy not only for those who are killed, but for israel, because it's a clear violation of international humanitarian law, the law that protects civilians, but more importantly, it's a tragedy for all of us. and what the escalation in the in the use of lethal autonomous weapons means for the future. could you

imagine if hitler or any modern day genocidal leader had a weapon like that? >> it is a scary thought, and you have posed a lot of very important questions that our societies and our leaders have to answer, and i hope we start answering them sooner rather than later. wendell wallach, thank you so much for your insights. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you ever so much for having me. >> take care. we're going to >> take care. we're going to have more in the wayborhood, every delivery is a treat. one pistachio for you, sir. one strawberry poof, please. oh. enjoy it. oh, poofect. bye waybor. something minty? of course, it's a large. [ gasps ] ♪ ♪ a double. lucky. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪ my mental health was better.

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think of this sooner? >> thank you for making time for us. be sure to catch ayman each saturday and sunday at 7 p.m. eastern. you can find us on blue sky and instagram at ayman msnbc. you can also listen to every episode of ayman as a podcast. just scan the qr code on your screen to listen on the go wherever you get your podcasts. also, beginning monday, rachel maddow hosts five nights a week for the first 100 days of trump's presidency, while my friend and colleague alex wagner travels across the country to highlight his policies and promises. watch the rachel maddow show weeknights at 9 p.m. eastern, right here on msnbc. and for inauguration day, rachel maddow and team will bring you key moments of the day, followed by analysis from our primetime anchors throughout the evening as the new term begins. special coverage begins at 6 a.m. eastern, right here on msnbc.