press? i also think there are a lot of lessons learned, too, right? is there's always this question like, do you take him literally and seriously or one or the other? and i think at this point, we have also learned to take him at his word, because the folks that are around him now are not people that are looking to stop him from doing certain things. these are people who have said, no, we want to help him do the things that he says he wants to do. they're not going to be taking things off of his desk to stop him from doing things. that's not going to happen anymore. so when president elect donald trump says something, when his aides say something, we should actually believe that that's something that they actually want to do. >> i think that's exactly the right advice as we go into this next part of the trump era. eugene daniels, thank you. and that was way too early for this monday morning. morning joe starts right now. >> we know the struggle to redeeming the soul of this nation is difficult and ongoing. the distance is short. between peril and possibility. but faith. faith teaches us the america of our dreams is always

closer than we think. that's the faith we must hold on to for the saturdays to come. we must hold on to hope. we must stay engaged. must always keep the faith in a better day to come. >> i'm not going anywhere. >> i'm not kidding. tomorrow at noon, the curtain closes on four long years of american decline. and we begin a brand new day of american strength and prosperity. dignity and pride. bringing it all back once and for all. we're going to end the reign of a failed and corrupt political establishment in washington. a failed

administration. we're not going to take it anymore. >> a contrast of two presidents, with one leaving the white house and the other preparing to take the oath of office for a second time. we'll bring you complete coverage of president elect donald trump's inauguration, including what we can expect today about his possible executive orders. will also take a look at the long list of his day one promises. also ahead, the latest out of the middle east as the first hostages held by hamas for 15 months are reunited with their families. plus, tiktok is back online for american users after a very brief ban. we'll dig into that reversal and the political implications. a lot going on, a very big day. good morning and welcome to morning joe. it's monday, january 20th. >> doctor martin luther king junior day and inauguration.

>> and we're going to be talking to reverend al sharpton. >> he's going to be here at 9:00 to be talking about that. he's going to be having a ceremony on the other end of the mall celebrating martin luther king jr. s day. well, i do want to just say you got certainly marked contrast between the outgoing president, the incoming president. it is extraordinary. here we are again. i mean, this is the only the second time this has happened. but you have you have a president who is out of office coming back into office. apparently, the reports are that joe biden got a letter from donald trump. that's one thing that donald trump did do when he left office, that that that sort of nodded to history. biden reportedly writing that back. so this does this this has happened every four years except for four years ago. right. and you do you always have presidents coming in saying i'm, you know, things

have been terrible. i'm going to make them better. you know, if you talk about the missile gap that kennedy did, we could go through all of that. i do just have to say, though. that when we hear about how horrible america is right now, i say this because republicans will be judged four years from now, just like jimmy carter was judged four years after with ronald reagan. are you better off today than you were four years ago? and i just would be very careful with this talk in office, because you're talking about a horrible america is. we have to just keep reminding americans for donald trump's biggest supporters, stock market at a record high crime, violent crime at a 50 year low, even illegal

immigration going across the southern border lower now than it was donald trump's last year in office. unemployment near record lows, wages have continued to go up year after year, so there are challenges housing. the interest rates seem to be going up and i would just say that is the biggest warning going into this is this economy is still much hotter. much hotter. that's that's that's joe biden's biggest problem. the economy that he has shepherded through over the past four years is too strong. and we're we're just this side of another explosion in inflation. if the wrong policies are implemented. >> yeah. at the end of the day, it was inflation. you can factor in immigration and some cultural issues as well. but it was inflation that things cost too much. that probably cost kamala harris. that cost democrats at

the ballot box a couple of months ago. and as you say, that report we got on friday showed prices still pretty hot. something the fed is going to have to grapple with now under this new president, donald trump. but otherwise, if you look again at the data and that was all true before the election too. this is a very strong economy. so the idea of american carnage, and we're first getting some look into what the incoming president is going to say in his inaugural address today. it doesn't sound like it's as much american carnage as it was last time, but clearly the tone that he set during the campaign and we heard again last night is i'm inheriting a disaster, and i am the one who has arrived to fix it. most americans, inflation notwithstanding, don't believe that we are living in a terrible country. >> well, along with joe, willie and me, we have the co-host of our fourth hour. jonathan lemire, he's a contributing writer at the atlantic covering the white house and national politics, nbc news and msnbc political analyst. former u.s. senator claire mccaskill is

here. msnbc contributor mike barnicle and rogers chair in the american presidency at vanderbilt university. historian jon meacham in just a few short hours, donald trump will be inaugurated as the 47th president of the united states. in a wide ranging phone interview with nbc news on saturday, trump said the theme of his inauguration speech today will be unity and strength, and also used the word fairness, just as he did back in 2017. trump is entering office as a political disrupter, promising to seize momentum starting on day one. >> you know, claire mccaskill, it's so important for people to read the political climate. and when i was interviewing bill clinton a couple of months ago at the 25th anniversary of his presidential library, he said democrats, in effect, forgot to meet people where they are. i

love that you're here as somebody, as somebody that represented missouri and represented a state that has gone deep red. now we can sit and grind our teeth and get angry if, if, if, if you're a democrat at home and you don't like how wisconsin except but it seems to me the biggest challenge for democrats are the missouri's that have gone deep red texas that obama lost by 13, hillary lost by nine, biden lost by five. and the boom went the other way. what what when you see this, what when democrats are looking not only at this speech, but the next two years ahead, what how should they be thinking about today, the political future and how they turn things around and stop, stop the momentum, especially in middle america, that they've got

to win back if they want to win the senate. >> well, it's going to take some discipline. it's going to take a party that remains laser focused on what folks are really worried about. and like it or not, donald trump created a crisis around immigration. so i don't think it's a good idea to say, okay, we're going to try to fight him about deporting people who have committed crimes. i mean, that's not a good idea. laser focused on cost. the american people food, insurance, health care. and then really importantly, joe, be a good opposition party and exposing the broken promises, the promises that will be broken are like a minefield. we know that because we know he promised things. there's no way this congress will do it. there's no way he can accomplish it under the law or the constitution. and if we get distracted by his nonsense, you know, which which we have a tendency to do for the

says, by the way, by the way, for the past decade, yes, concentrating on every tweet. >> and that's and by the way, that's, that's almost everybody. that's almost all because he says stupid stuff for the last decade. but you've been saying, and i'm shocked by how many democrats, how many progressives have been saying, you know what? there's so much of that stuff. we just need to let go by and focus on the signal and not the ground noise. >> that's exactly right. focus on the fact that he is not accomplishing what he promised. he's not delivering for the people who take a shower after work instead of before work. he's not he's not going to concentrate on those folks. he doesn't even like those folks. >> they like him, though. >> they love him because they think he is a guy that says out loud the stuff you're not supposed to say, and they feel like they've been screwed over by the system. now he is not going to be their savior. they think he is. and our party, the democratic party, has to focus on his failures, not his nonsense, and then stay focused on the cost to the american

people. i mean, insurance is a big deal right now, joe. right? it's sky high everywhere. nobody understands why it's getting so high. there really needs to be some discipline around issues like that, the democratic party, because frankly, that's our bread and butter. that's our meat and potatoes, not this. okay, he's going to buy greenland or whatever stuff he says just to try to get attention. right. >> and you are so right. the health health insurance crisis is devastating. people are paying more every day. they're getting less coverage every day. car insurance is a nightmare. they can't. homeowner's insurance is a nightmare. rental insurance is a nightmare. interest rates up to 7%. now. there are a lot of challenges for working americans. but. but there are a couple of polls i want to talk about in a minute. mika with jon meacham, the wall street journal poll that came out this week, and also the new york times poll that came out this weekend showing that donald trump and what he said during the campaign connected. and even

with people that don't necessarily like donald trump, they like what he's saying on the issues. and we'll go through those polls in a bit. >> well, we're getting a preview of what donald trump will likely say during his inaugural address today. according to the wall street journal, the president elect will call for a revolution of common sense in excerpts that were shared with the paper. trump is expected to say, i returned to the presidency confident and optimistic that we are at the start of a thrilling new era of national success. a tide of change is sweeping the country. my message to americans today is that it is time for us to once again act with courage, vigor, and the vitality of history's greatest civilization civilization. >> so, so, jon meacham, yesterday i spoke with somebody close to donald trump who said

he is in the best mood they've ever seen him in his adult life. and the question of vengeance came up and said, right now, that's not on his mind. you look at what what's been excerpted. excerpt to the wall street journal. just that little snippet looks positive, but you listen to the language from yesterday. and of course, a lot of lot of negativity about joe biden. but i'm curious what your thoughts are today on the administration leaving one that you know very well, one that occasionally you have to write speeches for the one coming in. and also those polls that i talked about this weekend that the new york times and the wall street journal polls both showing on on illegal immigration, on tariffs, on, on, on crime, on a lot of these issues that donald trump led

with throughout the campaign on transgender rights. about. men who transition post puberty, not being able to compete in women's sports. you know, a lot of those issues were just they were 80 over 20. and americans in the wall street journal poll, while they want immigrants that came here even illegally and have been here for ten years, you know, and worked hard, played by the rules, they want them to stay in those that have been here for 4 or 5 years, just 4 or 5 years. and of course, criminals, they they agree with donald trump. they should be out. so it is it's interesting where the american people are, again, even if they didn't love donald trump and even if they didn't vote for donald trump, the wall street journal and the new york times both say it's very interesting that he does. as claire said, he's got his finger on the pulse of a lot of

those working americans. >> yeah. i mean, one of the remarkable things about today is we will see in a tangible way, a tactile way, the fundamental tension of democratic governance, lowercase d, which is that a single person will take an oath administered by another single person representing the person administering the oath is the chief justice of the united states. the person taking the oath has won the presidential election, and that person swears allegiance to the constitution of the united states. so you have this highly individualisti, seemingly monarchical moment. but the pledge is to this 18th century system amended and but also a spirit of that constitution that has shaped us for two and a half centuries. that's the tension. and i'm delighted that president trump is in a good mood. but what are

the points of the constitution? one of the points of the rule of law, one of the points of having the spirit of the laws is that my life, liberty and pursuit of happiness shouldn't be dependent on the mood of a single person. that's why we have a democracy. that's why we have a constitutional republic. >> let me ask you, john, during during this break, john, let me ask you what your thoughts have been. we both know the 11th circuit, one of the most conservative, if not the most conservative circuits in america, ruling against donald trump on an issue that mattered a great deal to him. the supreme court ruling on probably the issue that mattered the most personally, and 5 to 4 against him, 38 republican house members saying no after elon musk and donald trump threatened them on the cr, the united states senate saying no to don gaetz, saying no to rick scott, voting in john

thune, somebody that donald trump said, do not vote. i'm wondering again, we have no idea where this is going to go, but have we not seen, at least in this interim, have we not seen institutions? and let's let's just say the courts doing what the courts did his first term. so it's not just one person. >> well, but we're giving the nuclear codes to one person in about four hours. yes, we are and we're right. and we have seen four years ago this day, we have seen what happens when that one person declines to accept the results that he doesn't like. all i'm saying is this is this is in the tradition of john adams. when john adams was vice president, he wrote and said, the american presidency, i'm paraphrasing, is central, and it

shall be the object of all eyes, the subject of all attention. and so it's a vital role, both constitutionally and culturally, and a dispositive number of american voters have decided to entrust it again to someone who has broken with tradition in ways that many people cheer, and which may be constructive. but he also broke with tradition in ways that were potentially destructive. and so that is the tension we will now live with. will the institutions hold? i pray. so i think the evidence is, yes, this is a country that for 250 years, more often than not has gotten things wrong. but here we are still believing this experiment is worth defending. and so what i would say to people who are seeing today in a, in a, in a darker light, in a

darker shade, is you can't surrender your agency in a democracy because you lose a single election. this is about we the people. we are a player in this symphony, and it's going to be hard and it's going to be depleting. and as we all know, there are a lot of people who are exhausted. but as john belushi said, because john adams to john belushi, we didn't give up when the germans bombed pearl harbor. no, we didn't, so we can't give up now. >> wow. you know, he he brings it all the way around. he's got that college sweatshirt on under underneath there. yeah, he's got that poster that every college kid has. yeah. >> belushi connecting with the youth. >> yeah. >> yesterday. >> the kids love him of like, 1970. exactly. yeah, it was a good reference, john. well done. we like it. >> just to give people a little bit of a run of show. we'll see president elect trump and melania had a service at saint

john's church about 830. then they'll go have tea at the white house with president biden and first lady jill biden. then president biden and the president elect will ride together from the white house to the capitol, where the new president will be sworn in just before noon today. so, jonathan lemire, as we talk through all this, today is the day with executive orders, at least 50, we're told, perhaps more going into effect. we hear he may sign some of them in front of a large crowd at capital one arena, where all the rhetoric becomes policy today on mass deportations, on tariffs, on transgender athletes, all these issues that were kind of at the center of the campaign this year, he's going to do something about right away. >> yeah, the trump team told i talked to over the weekend, said they really want to have like a shock and awe. >> they really want to come out really running this time around. >> in 2017, on his inauguration day, he signed one executive order. this time, they say it could be well north of 100. the first, perhaps right there in the statuary hall at the

capitol. he might sign a few, then over at capital one arena, where they're going to have a rally that's in place of the traditional speech on the mall. because of the cold, those events have been moved indoors and then still more yet at the white house later today, we could tick through some of them. some of these, of course, are largely symbolic. they won't have any teeth to them, others will. a number of are on immigration where he's going to declare a national emergency at the border, freeing up additional money for department of defense. he's going to abolish the return, bring back the remain in mexico policy. he's going to try to reset how the united states deals with asylum seekers targeting criminal. we might see the first raids by the immigration services later today or tomorrow. trump aides have previewed he's going to talk about energy withdrawing from the paris climate agreement yet again. that is what he did in 2017 as well. call for more drilling, reverse the biden ban on liquefied gas, the halt, the construction of new wind terminals. we know donald trump hates those. >> can i ask really quickly about immigration? he and holman

have been focused on violent criminals. any any hint at all, from what you've heard in your reporting, is that going to be the main focus or is it going to be more expansive? >> that's going to be the first focus. but stephen miller, of course, who's sort of the immigration czar and sort of the architect of this plan, previewed over the weekend to reporters that it might go beyond that, it might be more sweeping, it might be more expansive beyond just violent criminals in those early stages. and again, we expect those to begin within the first 24 hours or so. we know he's going to launch doge, that new agency, although maybe without one of its founders is vivek ramaswamy. he'll be heading for the door already ending the i in the federal government and the like. the list goes on and on. some of them are relatively meaningless, and others that he promised during his campaign like to revoke birthright citizenship we know cannot happen. but this is going to be they're going to try to unlike the chaos we all

remember that first week of 2017 where it seemed like the trump white house couldn't get out of its own way. they feel with a more seasoned team and more loyalists this time around, and republicans in the house and the senate along for the ride, they feel like they're going to be able to get at least some of this done right away. >> mike, wouldn't you like to be in that limousine in the beast riding from the white house, the short drive to the capitol with president biden in his final moments as president of the united states, sitting there trying to impart some final wisdom to donald trump. >> you know, the truth is, both men can be very charming, can be very charming. >> and i assume that the ride to the capitol will not be a hostile ride, i think, because both are aware of one unique fact. maybe this fact is responsible more than any other fact for donald trump being sworn in again as president of the united states. >> we live in a nation burdened by uncertainty. >> people are just uncertain of what's going on with their

lives, with their government. >> and i don't think any of us have paid enough attention to the ramifications of what covid did to this country and is still doing to this country. >> we live with it. it weighs people down. they question everything. they question the credibility of government. they're burdened with things that normally years ago, they'd just take as a grain of salt. oh, the car insurance is due now. the car insurance is like a house payment, things, little things like that. and so you have the outgoing president of the united states who is rooted and always has been rooted in four things family, faith, friendships, and most importantly of all, fate. he's he's a he's a narrator of fate. what fate can do to your life, to your hopes, to your expectations. and i think he knows he's always remembered one quote from his old friend al

simpson, former senator of wyoming, about everything that's going on with him now, about people attacking him for pardoning his son, about the afghanistan withdrawal, whatever his stuttering, he tripped once all of that, he remembers one thing imprinted on him by al simpson, who told him once a long time ago, remember joe? resentment. resentment destroys the can that it's carried in. and so he's not a resentful person. he's a good person with tremendous faith in god and a very strong will. and we're going to see all of that playing out today. >> and also someone who has real faith in institutions. and let's remember, we shouldn't overstate this. he is providing donald trump with donald trump. did not give him four years ago. that's right. a peaceful transition of power adhering to the american ideal, even hosting him for tea and riding with him to the capitol. none of those things donald trump did because joe biden, even in this moment of

real, of agony. in some ways, the fear for the american experiment still believes in it and needs to be upheld. >> well, he's he's he's an old time politician. and even when donald trump came into the white house, a lot of people were angry because he was smiling there behind the scenes. if they had heard what the biden team had said, that those two got along very well. it was very civil. it was very polite, probably more upset by that. but i suspect that ride will be congenial, be very congenial because that's who joe biden is, regardless of who he's sitting next to. certainly in, in, well, while he's engaged in politics, i do i do want to go to john meacham as we close out this set, though, because i'm hoping, willie, for a really esoteric sort of yeah, far, far reaching historical reference that will dig deep, that will leave leave most of our audience members in us, not only a bit confused, but feeling a bit queasy. yes. so

we've we've talked about, we talked about and i don't know if you heard the same thing that i did from people inside the biden white house, but joe biden was beyond congenial to donald trump when he came in during the transition. despite all the terrible things that were said on the campaign trail, doesn't always go that way on the ride's over. i mean, think about how truman and ike something you know about because you're writing about ike right now, a very, very icy transitional meeting and an even icy ride to the capitol. of course, jimmy carter didn't have a whole lot to say to ronald reagan in january of 1981 as well. talk about this moment, this ceremony. americans were robbed of it four years ago where we didn't have that peaceful transition of power. talk about how important it is, even in the worst of circumstances for one side or the other. >> well, the first time we did this, the former the outgoing

president had gone home. it was 1801 when john adams left town, about 4 a.m. before thomas jefferson became president. my favorite story about the ride is from 1981, when president reagan, who like president biden, as mike says, and president trump abhorred a silence. carter and reagan are riding up. and carter, of course, is exhausted. he's been negotiating the release of the hostages and isn't saying anything. so reagan starts telling stories. they get out of the capitol, and president carter turned to an aide and said, who the hell is jack warner? he keeps talking about jack warner. so reagan had reagan had fallen back on hollywood stories. so it's you see so much of american history in our presidents, right? he does go to what john adams said. they are the object of all eyes because they are in many ways an

embodiment of who the country is at a given moment. and so, you know, a, a eisenhower, kennedy, you know, the passing of a generational torch, the george w bush and bill clinton, you know, the boomers handing it back and forth. and so i think what we all want to do on a day like this is hope. and there's reason to do so. i do think that these political norms, which are often scorned and people think, well, it's all just kind of beltway stuff and it does matter because, okay, here you go. you want you want jane austen. how about that? yeah. >> will that do it okay. >> pretty good. try it okay. >> jane austen talked about that. manners weren't hollow gestures. they're actually

representations of how we feel. so if we're generous to someone, it's a sign that we are, in fact, accepting of them. we grant them respect. manners are morals. and what president biden will do today is he will act in a well-mannered way that signals his deep connection to a constitution that, however imperfect, has served us incredibly well. and now it's up to us to continue to guard that document well. >> and for those of us who actually believe in the constitution and the institutions and the things that have served this country well, it is important to continue that even if four years ago, joe biden did not receive the same thing. so it will be interesting. and i know you want to make another reference. you've gone from, yeah, john

belushi, animal house to jane austen. good. alex korson thinks you may be referencing spaceballs next. go ahead. >> well, very quickly, i hope people will stop saying today on the center, left and left. oh, i can't believe joe biden is being nice to him. that's wrong. right? because trump because president trump did not do this four years ago, makes it all the more important for president biden to do it today. >> yeah, no. even with harsh words and criticism about michelle obama not attending, i really hope americans on both sides see that even with what happened four years ago, joe biden and doctor jill biden will be offering and presenting a peaceful transition of power. that's important, as will bill clinton and hillary clinton, george w bush and laura bush. >> i mean, the yeah, they will

be there because they believe in the institutions. they believe in american democracy. yeah, because they think it's important to be there because they're not there for any particular man. right. they're there for the 77 million americans that voted for that man. and to say, we're going to continue this even when we disagree. >> you know, outgoing president biden has enormous respect for the democratic process. he's been on the ballot one time or another for the last 50 years for one office or another. and he respects the process, and he admires the process. you put your name on a ballot to run for anything, whether it's selectman or president of the united states and complete strangers across this country. vote you up or down. and he has respect for the impact it has on the person running and the impact it has on the process as well. you've had your name on the ballot two

times, you've been voted up and you've voted down. it's an incredible process. it's the only process in the world that has worked effectively for as long as it has, and it's worth cherishing. >> and everybody acts, willie, like they always have. this is the last election. this is this is this is, you know, their memory only goes back to this last election. and i remember walking around the floor during the clinton impeachment and everybody's whipped up and they were going to, you know, vote for clinton. and they wanted to add four more. they wanted to add four more. and the only admonition i had is i was like, you all are acting as if there will never be another republican president again. so you do what you want to do on these four votes, but you better think through it, because the standard by which we use on a democratic president, they will use on us.

and we just have to remember that. and again, i just want to double down on what john meacham said. the fact that donald trump didn't do this four years ago makes it all the more important and impressive that joe biden does it today. >> yeah, we have to reset. we have to establish again the norms of our country the way things are supposed to be done. >> and you're right about the republicans are going to do a whole bunch of extreme things beginning today, by the way, and the smart democrats, as claire knows, they know they now have an opportunity because there's going to be a lot of extreme stuff going on in the next year. >> year and a half in those midterm elections are going to be here before you know it. one last thing that we should point out as we talk about this tradition, i can't let this day pass without talking about the letter that george h.w. bush left in the oval office for bill clinton. he was embarrassed by his defeat to bill clinton, a man he thought he should not have lost to. and he wrote a beautiful letter that people can look up and read. and it ended

by saying, your success is our country's success. >> i'm rooting hard for you. >> good luck. and he just signed it, george. and that was january 21st, 1993. i think we all agree we could use a little bit more of that. presidential historian jon meacham, taking us on just a wild tour of references this morning. >> we wouldn't have it any other way. >> john, thanks so much. we appreciate it. >> still ahead on morning joe, donald trump has promised to start carrying out mass deportations on day one of his presidency. >> nbc's julia ainsley is standing by with new reporting on a major operation set to take place in chicago in the coming days. >> we know the battle for the soul of america continues in this moment of strength of our institutions and democracy the presidency, the congress, the courts, a free and independent press. unless our institutions and our communities like this museum, they matter more than ever.

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prisoners. nbc news international correspondent raf sanchez has the latest. >> we're outside the sheba medical center. it's one of the big hospitals here in tel aviv, and it was the final destination for those three female hostages romi gonin, doron steinbrecher and emily demari, after they were freed from gaza. this was really an epic journey. it began in hamas captivity. they were handed over to the red cross, surrounded first by hamas gunmen, but then also just an enormous crowd inside of gaza. the red cross drove them to an israeli military position. they were handed over to idf forces flown by helicopter here. and then they drove straight past us into this hospital, where they are beginning what is going to be a long road to recovery. but doctors say the early indications are that they are in pretty good condition, given just the unimaginable trauma

that they lived through during 471 days of captivity. all three were able to walk unaided. doctors saying they are healthy enough to be reunited with their families. we are learning that emily damari lost two fingers during the october 7th attack, and everyone here is clear these women have a long way to go. one doctor telling us that hamas dehumanized them, and the goal is to give them their humanity back. now this cease fire went into effect 11:15 a.m. local time. that is three hours late. hamas did not provide the list. the names of these three hostages when they were supposed to. israel continued striking in gaza after the cease fire was due to go into effect, and in that three hour window between 8:30 a.m, when the cease fire was supposed to go into effect, and 11:15 a.m. when it actually

did, at least 19 people were killed by israeli strikes inside of gaza. just agonizing to think that these are people who were killed in literally the last minutes before the guns went silent. israel releasing 90 palestinian prisoners, women and children in exchange for these three female hostages. and the big question now, is this cease fire going to hold? phase one of the deal is supposed to be a six week cease fire. 33 hostages, including two americans, are due to come out. but prime minister benjamin netanyahu has indicated that he reserves the right to go back to the war. on the other side of this six week ceasefire, if that happens, it not only brings fresh misery to the people of gaza, but it potentially also means the remaining 60 something hostages who are still inside the strip may not come out. that is something causing a lot of

anxiety here in israel. >> all right. nbc's raf sanchez with that report. and we can only hope that the process continues peacefully. >> we can obviously, such great news for these three hostages, but still so many still to be released. and unfortunately, several hostages dead. and the families just want the bodies back. >> yeah. >> this is an extraordinary photograph on the cover of the new york post. >> the three women who came home, ranging in age from 24 to 31, with smiles on their faces after what they've endured for 471 days. >> as raf said, they are said to be in relatively good health. >> but again, that's a relative term when they've been in captivity for that long. >> and the concern, as you point out, mika, is what will be the condition of the 30 that are left to be released. are they all alive even? >> yes. and that remains to be seen. >> so i think the families will take that day of joy and we'll see what comes next. let's turn

back to the inauguration today and the coming days. mass deportations are expected to start across the country as part of donald trump's immigration push, but nbc news has learned the plan for a large scale operation in chicago now has been postponed because of leaks to the media. joining us now, nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley. julia. good morning. so where do the plans for chicago stand now and which other cities are bracing for this action? >> well, willie, as we understand, the chicago plans are postponed. >> they're not canceled. they still have targets across the chicago area. a lot of people with criminal records. we understand that ice does want to go out and arrest. we also understand this would be part of a shock and awe what steve bannon called days of thunder, something they want to carry out to really show force in the beginning. and we could see ice wearing tactical gear that we wouldn't normally see really for that display. but because of the media leaks, nbc news is one of

those organizations that got a hold of it. we had a hold of a document of these plans and reported about chicago that was supposed to start on tuesday. because of those leaks, we now understand they've postponed the chicago operation, and they're eyeing other cities where they could start. that includes right here in the d.c. area, especially in northern virginia. it could be philadelphia, denver, los angeles. we also know that trump was talking to new york city mayor adams about operations there. really, what he's focusing on are blue cities, especially places like denver and chicago, as we mentioned, that's now postponed, where trump can go head to head with sanctuary city policies because they want to start that fight. if trump really wanted to start with areas where there were the most numbers of undocumented immigrants, the most numbers of immigrants who might have final orders of deportations or criminal records, you would think he would start in an area like houston, texas, but instead he's going to really blue cities to start this operation. >> we also understand there's tension here about exactly who

they should be targeting. >> homan, of course, a long time law enforcement person with a history in ice and all through dhs, wants to start with criminals at the top. he wants to be able to use resources accordingly. he knows he can't cast a wide net. and the very beginning, then you have the influence of stephen miller. jonathan lemire mentioned. he said, look, criminals are not the only ones we're going after. so it's a matter of what they start with first. they are limited in resources. we've reported here. ice is already spending way over what they have. they have $230 million that they haven't made up for this year. so they really are starting in the negative here, trying to ramp up these operations. so it's a question of what they can do at first before congress might come through with more money. so it could be in the early days especially, i think we would see this beginning tuesday after they're able to get in and execute these plans. we can see arrests in those cities we mentioned, but we should look at exactly who's arrested. you know, when we talk about criminals, is it someone with a dui or is it someone with a

murder conviction? and then really look at the numbers, especially numbers that could increase for later, and they might need money in order to do that. >> nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. >> and, john, you've always pointed out this is very expensive. i mean, there are natural sort of constraints against the sort of broad, sweeping mass deportations. inflation is one of them that because it's very inflationary, you take away you take away a lot of workers, small business owners and even people on wall street will say that's going to be inflationary. but but also just the cost. you've always talked about how expensive it is to move through deportation. and i will say i would be quite surprised if donald trump, given all these, these different sort of polls, even deports as many

people as barack obama did, you know, over eight years he was called the deporter in chief for good reason. he deported far more many illegal immigrants than donald trump did the first term, and in part because it is so expensive to do. >> yeah, an extraordinarily expensive proposition. and even as stephen miller takes the hawkish line and say these are going to be sweeping mass deportations, there's some divides with the administration and the outer sort of trump orbit business leaders suggesting we're going to take away workers that we need right now. we know how much donald trump is concerned about the nation's economic health. there's divisions within congress as they debate whether this is going to be one massive bill that contains so much of trump's agenda, including on money for immigration reform and these deportations, or whether it's split into a few, because he also wants to have the sweeping tax cut. so this is going to be and there's also questions of just who's carrying out these raids if they were to happen, what local officials might balk, whether this would trigger protest movements and the like. but it is the cost is paramount here. it's going to be very difficult and very

expensive. if he's going to do even remotely what he's promised to do. >> all right. coming up, we're going to take a quick break from the news and politics and turn to sports. pablo torre joins us to break down the nfl playoffs. after a weekend of entertaining games. morning joe is back. in just a moment, we're going to ask claire if the refs really are rigging the games for the chiefs. >> we'll be right back. >> we'll be right back. >> shut up. boom. you know they when winter season hits emergen-c supports your immune system with so much more than vitamin c. be ready to fight back with emergen-c and for on-the-go immune support try emergen-c crystals. no water needed. got eyelid itching, crusties and swelling that won't go away? it could be... demodex blepharitis! and we're demodex mites. we're very common and super irritating to your eyelids... but we love making ourselves comfortable here!

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>> com or visit a store today. >> it's third down and goal. up. >> mahomes steps up throws and he got it. >> touchdown kelce. barkley time. oh it has to be no question. i mean you may tell jalen hurts to keep one at some point but only if it's wide open. you keep running for 18 yards and adding to it. there goes barkley into the clear for the snow all the way home. he's hit another home run against the rams. second and long got some pressure again. lets it fly high. it's intercepted. picked off by quan martin. martin with some blocks inside. the 20 still going. >> martin. pick six. >> the whole season essentially comes down to this play for these two great teams.

>> going in a roll roll. >> flip it. got it. oh the ball was dropped. he had the two point conversion in his hands. andrews did not hold on. >> oh that was a willie. >> that was a jackie i think it was jackie smith moment. and one of the great super bowls of all time. when roger staubach throws to his tight end in the end zone, who does just that and loses the game context for that is the ravens had gone down the field. they came within two points. >> they had to get that. >> the two point conversion. >> if mark andrews who's a really good tight end the best, just pulls that in and sits down across the goal line. >> it's a tie game. we're probably going to overtime. >> i'm going to cry. >> he couldn't make the catch. the bills win 27 to 25. the ravens are going home now. the bills will visit the two time defending champion kansas city chiefs next sunday in the afc championship game after the chiefs rolled.

>> if they rolled but they won 23 to 14. >> you see the texans on saturday. lamar sent me a great picture. you know how a lot of times players will exchange jerseys. they had mahomes exchanging his jersey with the ref. and it was it was very moving. that seems wrong. it kind of seems wrong. and when you have somebody like don van natta saying, basically this is rigged and the officials are going to have to do. the nfl is going to have to do something about officials giving patrick mahomes every benefit of the doubt. it's van natta. it's not just some rando three time pulitzer prize look, the lopsided officiating threatens the integrity of the game and the quality of the product. something must be done. i say this, of course, and it hurts me to say this in front of claire mccaskill. but i say to somebody who's been cheering for the chiefs my whole life, it is ridiculous. so willie and i know you share. there was in particular one three passer call more than one, three, two texans defenders seem to have targeted each other right. and were called for targeting. and halfway across the field

somebody pushes patrick mahomes and he does a ronaldo flop out of bounds. and it's another 15 yards. >> are you done will. >> will anderson are you done. it's right here. and they yeah. senator you have the floor. >> okay. >> so i know sitting next to you, pablo torres is here. >> pablo torres, how are you? good to see you. >> yeah, yeah, i know that we are going to the seventh afc championship in a row because of the refs, i know that. >> well, you know, i'm glad you're admitting it. at least the last four for the first time in history. >> yeah, kelsey broke an nfl record for playoff receiving yards. i mean, here's will anderson hitting me in the belt okay. oh, they call that he knows he can't go helmet to helmet. he knows he can't go helmet to helmet. it's the rules. >> he didn't go helmet to helmet. he went helmet to shoulder pads. >> you guys. and by the way, on the one that everyone's complaining about the most, was it pretty obvious that mahomes was sliding to everybody? that

was. that was pretty obvious to you? >> yeah, it was also pretty obvious to those. it was pretty obvious that those defenders hit each other's own helmet. so you're saying we're going to get 15 yards to mahomes because you guys heard me. >> i just want i want to say to jonathan lemire, i feel the patriots pain for being hated by the world because we know how to win in playoff football. >> the legal scandals against you next, then. >> yeah, the ideal gas law. >> and this is where he calls a 15 yard penalty for two texans hitting each other. yeah. and then he goes to kansas city. chiefs win. >> look at this. shouldn't there be a challenge. >> oh no no no his helmet wasn't hit. no no no it wasn't at all. no it wasn't a break. what are you going to blow. watch. your watch. >> gas. will they hit each other's head. >> oh you guys i mean, you know, if you want to see here. >> pablo, pablo. i showed up here wanting to be the first person on your show. to quote jane austen. oh, sorry. we're

finally dispensing with the pleasantries, right? like manners may hold a society together or whatever, but this is what i've been calling for. >> the idea that in this game, it just felt like there was a turning point, because claire's chiefs are not just the team with the best player in the world, which is true patrick mahomes, but they're also the team that gets the calls. >> why do they? >> they do because first off, this is the history of sports okay michael jordan got the calls. the superstar gets the calls. and donovan again my friend three time pulitzer winner. what he's alluding to there is just this dynamic that's hard to avoid, which is when there is a razor thin decision. >> it always goes their way. >> it goes in favor of the guy that might be the best and most important player to the business of football. so it's not that he isn't the best, it's just that he's getting. and this is the story of the chiefs all season. to me, cosmically, they get treated like a billionaire who's asking for a tax cut just like you get it?

>> yeah, exactly. exactly. hey, hey, it's all already clear. >> you have it all. mike, this is serious. >> let's talk about van natta for a second and put the tweet up again. a three time pulitzer winner. this isn't just somebody that's like a crank out there from from taxes saying, my team lost this. this is the best. and when he tells the nfl that the officials are rigging the games and impacting the quality of the product, i do think the nfl is going to start paying attention to that. >> well, don van natta, there is no one who knows more about the intricacies of pro football than the national football league, than don van natta. there is nobody who follows it more closely than don van natta. and if you speak to him about the officiating, he will point out the obvious mistakes that most officials make. and to pablo's point, he will point out there is absolute legitimacy in the fact that officials cater to and try and take care of the biggest financial stars in the game,

quarterbacks. and one other thing that don will tell you is the things that officials miss and don't call that are right in front of them. >> you know, i want to follow up really with something that pablo said, because this is something, as pablo said, it always happens in sports. when the dream team got together, they had that a shot of like, magic and larry and michael and i forget the other two, but somebody put their arms, put somebody put their arm around around michael jordan. and i think it was bird who said, be careful, they're going to call a foul. yeah, because jordan always got the benefit of the doubt. as a knicks fan, i can say he sure did. but why don't we. yeah. and brady too i mean you can go down the list but let's go. let's pull out bigger picture on this. >> take the take the refs out 20,000ft. >> the chiefs 15 and one. >> now they've won this game in the playoffs 16 and one. they've been playing with fire a little bit all year. i think you'd concede that. >> that's a lot of close games that they've pulled out in the

end. to their credit thanks to our defense. >> and now they get a real test. yes, it's a home game but this is a really good buffalo team. >> yeah i mean what the bills did against the ravens. so on on friday you may recall i told you guys i'm taking the bills because there felt like a home field advantage in the cold in a city that refuses to build a dome. right. they want the elements. yeah. and when you look at what happened in this game, mark andrews, i guess we start with that just because the drop was a choke job by any objective measure. but then bigger picture. it's three turnovers lamar jackson in the cold. all of these things that happened to him. the interception his fumble mark andrews his drop and also a fumble. all of that. you could argue a function of the elements lamar had never played in a game this cold. when you add that to a history with him in which he's just a shell of himself, right? this is he's going to be the three time mvp and the stuff he's doing here. and this is i mean, it's just dropping the

ball. >> that's the one. >> it's a again a razor thin margin. but this is buffalo's dream come true right. >> and mark andrews is a ravens hall of famer. and it's incredible. it drops the ball at the end of the game a safety blanket for lamar jackson a terrible fumble earlier when if he had turned up field there was no one between him and the end zone. so you feel bad for him as the possible goat look lamar the two early turnovers, he did have the drive at the end. he did have the drive at the end. so the answer some questions. >> but it is another year. >> but it's another year of him failing in january. and now we go to josh allen who his numbers aren't outrageous but manage the game. some good running game some solid defense. they win. they get another shot at the chiefs in the 1970s. >> the game was always the steelers and the cowboys. i think this decade the game is always the chiefs and the bills. you go back 3 or 4 years ago, one of the classic playoff games ever. you'd have to go back to san diego and the dolphins back

in the 70s for one, is crazy. how big is this game going to be? i know not for the chiefs because you guys win all the time, etc. etc. but for fans, the bills and the chiefs for the afc championship, the chiefs on the verge of history. i mean it's going to be massive, isn't it? >> it's going to be big. we're three and oh against the bills in the playoffs. we've never lost to the bills in the playoffs. >> so you're saying a lot more pressure on them a lot of pressure. yeah. >> and i you know one thing we've talked a lot about mahomes. and you know everybody whining that he we always win. but we haven't said anything about the chiefs defense. >> the defense really good. >> the defense last year the last two years we have done well because of our defense. and karlaftis was on fire over the weekend. and he i mean, this defense is on a roll. >> you know, what's so incredible about the chiefs is for the past year and a half, i will say they've played below expectations of being one of the great teams in nfl history. they

just win, but they kind of win ugly. so much of that has to do with their defense. yeah. >> and you know i feel for everybody i get it that everybody wants the chiefs to lose i do i get it you know i do okay i get it that everybody wants the chiefs to lose i get it. i remember when i wanted the patriots to lose every time they played you. but the point is why you only have three. >> yeah. oh there it is. you know. there you go. there it is. >> oh, there you go. we only have three in the last five years. so you know, it is it is a thing that the country will be cheering for buffalo. but i got to tell you chiefs nation, we are so proud of the way this team figures out a way to win every time. >> we can't let we can't let you go without talking about the game that i think broke a lot of football players, a lot of football fans, hearts, whether they're from detroit or not. and that was so sad. that is the real quick. the lions, such an

extraordinary story. yes, i got to say when you're when you're short 18 of players on defense and when goff gets just hammered in the helmet and he's off the rest of the night, i mean it's hard to look at this game and say, gee, this this team, you know, everything they've done preceding this just didn't matter what the commanders did to the lions ruined the entire season. >> and this is one of those games where if you're a detroit fan, you're like, i don't even know if you can look back on the regular season with fondness anymore because they did this to you and this as mika. i can just feel i can feel the energy you can. jayden daniels as a rookie, i don't know the last biggest upset before this. i just know it wasn't done by a rookie who was also clearly the best player on the field. >> and when the lions coaches are freaking out, trying to trick plays, trying to have receivers and backup quarterbacks do whatever they can to beat the commanders.

jayden daniels is in total control, and that feeling is jealousy inducing. >> they have their guy. jayden daniels is the guy. i'm not wearing burgundy because of that reason, but it just felt like he's a guy that actually the country is going to be excited by. >> willie. you look at and mike, you look at daniels on the bench rest, resting heart rate of like you know 68 right. you hear him talk afterwards. he's a good guy. when i say he didn't sound excited i don't mean that negatively. he's just so zen. he goes yeah, you know, i worked hard. my parents had me work hard. i have my faith in god. i did, i just i'm so glad for the team. he's an amazing guy. he goes out there and you can tell everything slows down for him on the field. incredible. for a rookie, i think he's only the sixth rookie quarterback to play a championship game. >> and even to hear tom brady talk about him, the broadcast, he's like, this guy is a guy cut

in my cloth. he gets to the facility at 4 a.m. they have to give him a key. he's there before all the coaches watching film. he's just that guy. and he put that work ethic together with the talent that he so clearly has. he is special. and now mike, they play the eagles, which as a giants fan it was very difficult to watch saquon barkley galloping through the snow for another 62 yards touchdown total. >> but he has found his home and they get to play at home against jayden daniels next sunday. >> jayden daniels is extraordinary. he's an extraordinary young talent. i mean and to your point, joe, i mean the calmness of that guy in a game situation like that was also extraordinary. i would like to compliment dan campbell, the coach of the detroit lions, and the people in politics should take a message from dan campbell, stepped up to the plate after that game and said, we did not deserve to win. congratulations to them. they beat us fairly and squarely. we made a lot of mistakes and we're sorry about it. but he took

responsibility for the loss. >> okay, it's six minutes past the hour. the host to pablo torre finds out on meadowlark media. >> burgundy glad that's right. >> thank you. your next guest on your podcast, claire. i think it's going to get. >> if she get ugly. >> punch me in the break. i know that. all right. >> i think that's a good idea. let's get to politics with claire. now, just hours from now, donald trump will be sworn in as the 47th president of the united states. today's inauguration ceremony will be held indoors due to the freezing temperatures in washington, d.c. in a social media post on friday, trump said he made the call to move the ceremony inside in the interest of safety. officials estimate roughly 200,000 people originally had tickets for the inauguration, but the capitol rotunda can only hold about 600, so the vast majority of guests will not be able to attend the ceremony in person. the last time an inauguration ceremony was moved

indoors was in 1985, when president ronald reagan took his second oath of office. according to the national weather service, the temperature was seven degrees that day, and during the conversation, we have u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay, and author and nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss. good to have you both, along with everybody here at the table. >> michael, tell us what you're thinking about today. what what you think about joe biden getting in that limousine and riding down to the capitol with donald trump? and what happens after that? >> well, there have been a lot of hostile riots between outgoing and incoming presidents in those limousines. >> for instance, in 1933, franklin roosevelt was riding with the outgoing herbert hoover, whom he had defeated and was chatting away. and they had the same blanket over their

knees. and people who were along the route said, oh, isn't it great? the two guys are talking to each other. and it turned out that roosevelt was talking and hoover was not talking to him. so you've seen all these variations. >> but the thing is, you know, and it's been said this morning by john meacham, maybe not by john belushi, but certainly by john meacham, and that is that the constitution, the founders made a huge effort to protect those who voted against an incoming president. >> a lot of people did not vote for donald trump. a lot of people are very worried about what's going to happen here. and what the founders did is they created a presidency where a president was supposed to divide by proposing policies that people might not like, but he was also supposed to unify. so all i'm saying is that the news that donald trump is going to talk about unity today, that may be a little green. shoot, i wouldn't push it too far. but

presidents who unify the country and try to explain their policies to people who disagree, those are the ones who are popular and they're more effective in history. >> so katty kay, let's talk about the mood in washington the last two and a half months, certainly for many progressives, has been to sort of look away, maybe some denialism. and this morning, just before noon, it becomes real that donald trump will be the 47th president sworn in in the capitol rotunda. what is the feeling in washington as we enter the second term? >> washington's a very different city this weekend, willie. >> i've been out and about. >> i went to a couple of events over the weekend, but even just walking around the streets, there are a lot more maga people here, a lot more supporters of donald trump wearing hats, feeling very exuberant. this does not feel like the inauguration of 2017. >> there are very few protesters. >> i understand that the lines to get into the capital one arena are very, very long this morning with a lot of his

supporters, despite the fact that it's freezing cold temperatures, it doesn't seem to be deterring them. >> and of course, you know, washington, a city that famously votes 96% democratic, is not used to having such overt displays of support for maga world. i guess that will die down. >> but it's a city kind of. >> we feel like we've been in the eye of the storm, and now the storm is hitting because you've had this transition period where donald trump, we know he's going to become president. >> but today is the first day where we actually see the impacts of that. >> and i think the question for the trump team is just how much are they going to do, how fast and how effective are they going to be in achieving their goals. >> all right, katie, we have breaking news right now. joe biden has just according to jonathan muir, has just issued a series of pardons. it's of significant, significant just now a statement a statement from the president, united states joe biden talking about the defensive need to defend public servants. >> he's offering pardons. he is

pardoning. now. i will just read from it. i'm exercising my authority under the constitution to pardon general mark milley, doctor anthony fauci, the members of congress and staff who served on the january 6th select committee and u.s. capitol and dc metropolitan police officers who testified before the select committee. he goes on to say the issuance of these pardons should not be mistaken as an acknowledgment that any individual engaged in any wrongdoing, nor should acceptance, be misconstrued as an admission of guilt for any offense and just backing up a moment. we have known for months now speculation that there would be these preemptive pardons issued by the white house. there were some people wanted them, others did not. but a remarkable historic moment here, in just his final hours of the presidency, issuing pardons for those who very much were targeted by donald trump and his allies, potential for prosecution and retribution. >> i think what's significant about these particular names, willie, especially for the january 6th committee, liz cheney, adam kinzinger and of

course, all the democrats on the committee, is that the incoming president, in his interview on on meet the press several weeks ago after being elected, because there is you know, it's one thing to be saying it in the heat of a campaign. but after being elected, saying that the people serving on the january 6th committee should should go to jail, that obviously probably made made joe biden more, more ready for those pardons. of course, mark milley, he said what he said about mark milley. same with with fauci and the us capitol police. >> these are being offered. >> they're being offered. so they're being offered. that's correct. so they have to accept those. >> they have to accept them. right. >> okay. so the limousine ride just got more interesting. >> yes it did. >> talking about that's going to be president biden and the president elect ride over from the white house to the capitol. the president ends the statement by saying the issuance of these pardons should not be mistaken

as an acknowledgment that any individual engaged in any wrongdoing, nor should acceptance, be misconstrued as an admission of guilt for any offense. >> that was part of the reason some of these people, and we'll see if they accept these pardons and said, i don't want a pardon, because by accepting it, it implies that i've done something wrong and i haven't. so it will be interesting to see. now they've been offered. there are 4.5 hours left in president biden's presidency. >> claire. >> it'll be interesting to see if they take them. >> yeah, it makes me sad. it makes me sad. first of all, it sets a precedent. can you imagine the list four years from now? not good. and frankly, it shows that we have gotten to the point that we no longer trust the institutions of our courts to fairly administer the laws, because i think the people who say i don't want a pardon are saying that because they know factually there is no evidence to do anything to them. so i you know, i get it. and i'm not

being critical of the president for doing it. but it's sad. it is very, very sad. and it's another blow to the institution of rule of law in this country. >> i have a question. maybe you can answer it. i don't know, maybe someone else here can answer it. do these pardons offered this morning, do they time out? with the demise of the biden presidency? no they don't. no. okay. >> let's go right now to nbc news senior white house correspondent gabe gutierrez. gabe, of course, some breaking broke this obviously breaking news on the offering of pardons to liz cheney. mark milley, members of the january 6th committee that includes fauci adam kinzinger, anthony fauci, and yeah, obviously, as willie said, the limousine ride over to the capitol just got a little more interesting. yeah, certainly. joe. mika. willie. good morning. it didn't get a whole lot more interesting. and this is something that we had

known that the white house that the president was considering now for quite some time, this idea of preemptive pardons. >> and if you could look further at the statement, he says, i cannot in good conscience do nothing baseless and politically motivated. >> motivated investigations wreak havoc on the lives, safety and financial security of targeted individuals and their family. >> this is something that president biden had been wrestling with over the last several weeks. and so now hearing this just several hours before he is set to leave the oval office here behind me on this chilly day in washington, of course, expected to be a very busy morning here, the president elect set to leave blair house in just a short time, go to church and then in the 9:00 hour, he is set to be welcomed here in the white house for the traditional tea and coffee here with president biden, before then heading off to the capitol in the 10:00 hour. so a busy morning, of course, on inauguration inauguration day, as it always is a little different this morning.

>> of course, with these chilly temperatures here outside. >> but again, that breaking news. >> president biden, just before leaving office, issuing those preemptive pardons. >> joe and mika. all right. okay. can i ask you, claire, just personally, i know it's impossible to put yourself in that position. obviously, if you are in the position of, say, mark milley or anthony fauci or liz cheney or adam kinzinger or the democrats on that committee or the capitol hill police officers. >> what do you do? >> i mean, the thing is, even, you know, even if the courts throw the any any potential charges out, the costs that would would fall, especially on the shoulders of those capitol hill cops would be would be crushing. so i'm curious what what what if you were their attorney, what would you advise them to do? >> well, first of all, there's nothing in this pardon that

keeps congress from going after them, right? i mean, that's what you need to remember, that their lives can still be majorly disrupted if a phony special committee is formed. >> exactly. johnson. >> and they all have to come in and testify. >> we're just talking about criminal charges here. >> i mean, they could always investigate on the assumption there might be other people that were pardoned around them that committed laws. if this was a guarantee that their lives would not be disrupted by vengeance in the trump administration, i think that's one consideration. yes. and frankly, they won't be disrupted as much if they accept these pardons because they really can't begin a direct investigation criminally into somebody who already has a pardon. right. but it is a hell of a precedent to set in this country to do something like this. and it opens the door for other people who are not as honorable as joe biden to do it in the future. >> what would your advice to them be as an attorney?

>> my advice to them, i mean, i'm a combative attorney. i like to get in the courtroom and go for it. if one of these people i would lay out, this is probably what's going to happen, this is probably the cost in your lives if they decide to investigate you. but there is no evidence, and i would probably come down on the side of saying, let them come. let's show them that there's no evidence. >> jonathan lemire, white house official, white house officials i've been texting with in the last few minutes say these are these are pardons are signed. >> they are in effect, we have not yet heard from members who have received them. we'll see if they want to have public comments later in the day. it's unclear if we'll hear more from the president on this matter. we will get remarks from president biden later today. he is giving a farewell address to staff at joint base andrews after the inauguration ceremony. that will be about 2:00 or so, i believe we'll see if he addresses it then. but this is this list of pardons. this is these are signed, they are official, and it's an historic moment. >> so speaking speaking of pardons, we're going to be hearing after after president

trump is inaugurated. a number of pardons that he's going to be offering for those arrested for, for crimes committed on january the 6th. last night again said it last night again. so, you know, the question there is, is just the degree of it. and just just like, is it going to be limited to people that committed violent offenses? and on january 6th, i think the question that's really going to be hanging out there is, is he going? is donald trump going to provide pardons to those who committed acts of violence on that day? because almost 13 people, 1300 people were convicted for what they did on that day, ranging from trespassing to seditious conspiracy. >> so there's a wide range within those convictions. he called them again last night. jay. >> six hostages. >> is he talking about the

people who planned it? the people who conducted the worst of the violence in that place. we'll see if he does that. but just back to these pardons for a minute. adam schiff, adam schiff has said in recent weeks he doesn't want a pardon. he doesn't think there's a reason for a pardon. liz cheney's office said, i have nothing to be pardoned for. on the other hand, bennie thompson, the congressman who chaired the j6 committee, apparently there have been private meetings in the last couple of weeks with the white house and members of that january 6th committee about the potential for these pardons. so these will not come as a surprise to those people. >> they probably knew that they were coming down the pike. michael beschloss, i'm curious what you think as a presidential historian, have we seen this before in the final hours? >> and what kind to claire's concern? what kind of precedent does it set? >> we have seen a lot of pardons in the final hours, of course, but we've never seen something like this. i mean, just to give you an idea of how far things have come, i was told by an aide to lyndon johnson that when he left the presidency in 1969, he

was worried that richard nixon might prosecute some of the chief members of the johnson administration. or maybe, you know, democratic mayors. and so johnson said to this aide, joe califano, he said, when you pay your taxes, make sure you pay $500 more than you owe just to be safe. that shows how how far things have come since 1969. >> all right. we'll be following this again. president joe biden has pardoned doctor anthony fauci. retired general mark milley and members of the house committee that investigated the january 6th attack on the capitol, using the extraordinary powers of his office to guard against revenge by incoming president donald trump. we'll talk more about this ahead. also still ahead, we'll talk about how world leaders are preparing for donald trump's return to office today, and what his second term could mean for u.s. foreign policy. morning joe is back in a moment.

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powering five years of savings. powering possibilities™. love.com. >> the presidency is no place for petty people. so donald trump i know he watched the show. man, remember whether people voted for you or not. they're all counting on you. that's right. whether they like

you or not. they're all counting on you. the whole world is counting on you. i mean this when i say this. good luck. please do better next time. >> please. >> all of us do better next time. do not forget your humanity. and please have empathy for displaced people. >> whether they're in the palisades or palestine. thank you very much. and good night. >> comedian dave chappelle ending his opening monologue so powerful on saturday night live. wow. >> and really wow. much of which we will not play here. yeah, there was some of that, but that was that was one of those monologues, much like much like old saturday night live monologues. yeah, he was pushing the boundaries. i said like old saturday night live monologues or monologues. every time bill burr is on there, right? bill burr, george carlin. the first

time. right, right. yeah. it was boy, it was a tour de force. i think it was 15, 18 minutes, something like that. he gave that very poignant moment and it was very sincere at the end, hoping that we all do better, especially donald trump. >> but he covered a lot of ground. yeah, he covered a lot of ground. he talked about springfield, ohio. he talked about the diddy situation. >> he talked actually. he's actually saying at first he was shocked about the news. and then after he saw everybody who got invited there, insulted that he wasn't on the guest list, that he was on the guest list. and then he realized because he was too ugly. and then he started to feel bad about himself. yeah. >> but he talked about the fires in california. >> it was well worth a watch. we can't play it here, but well worth the watch. >> yeah. all right. we've got a lot to cover. let's bring in the host of way too early. ali. vitali. ali, good to have you. so you got the memo on the jacket. and so i just want to go back to these pardons for just a moment. we were talking off camera. i know there's some, but joe biden says in his statement,

i believe in the rule of law, and i am optimistic that the strength of our legal institutions will ultimately prevail over politics. but these are exceptional circumstances, and i cannot in good conscience do nothing. ali vitali, your thoughts of the reaction that we might see on capitol hill, or even by some of those who are serving right now, who might or might not accept one of these. >> that was the line that caught my attention to mika. as i've been reading this in the last few minutes, i wrote it down in front of me because to me, it's illuminating of the complexity of this moment that we're in. the thing that i've been thinking about as donald trump is being sworn in again as president is that he's doing it in the capital, the very place where supporters of his in his name ransacked this building and this institution four years ago when he lost. and yet, biden has done so much to try to bring back. and you guys were talking about this at the top of the show, the traditions and the normalcy to this transfer of

power to show the strength and durability of democracy. and yet he's also stretching the bounds of what presidential pardons can do. so in real time, we're watching this push and pull of the complex moment that we are in biden, allowing and helping and ushering along trump back into the white house. the same man who, towards the end of the election, he called a fascist and spoke to a lot of the small d democratic concerns that exist around trump for many reasons, including but not limited to the sixth. and so there will be outcry, of course, around these pardons. but i think it speaks to the washington that trump is walking into now, which is one with far less guardrails than the first time. and biden's pardons, i think, speak to that reality. >> well, and katty kay, obviously, historians, when they look back on this presidency, they look back on the first and second trump presidencies, they are going to look at a lot of

norms that have been shattered with joe biden. it was he, he said, his upholding of constitutional norms that he was most concerned about. but there is no doubt historians will be looking at these pardons. the pardon of hunter biden and other things that he did in the waning days of his presidency. that will add, let's just say, complexity and depth to that analysis of his presidency. yeah. >> i mean, one through line that we seem to be looking at at the moment between joe biden and donald trump is the idea of consolidating power in the executive, right? i mean, joe biden has done the same thing in pardoning his son and issuing these pardons right now. and i understand why he's saying it. and i think his his comment about the fact that you can ruin people financially just by going after them with lawsuits, even if they have done nothing wrong, and even if in the end they're

exonerated. that seems to be to strike me as to why he's done this, particularly for people like fauci and milley and fauci, who's a, you know, elderly himself. but there is something about using the office of the power of the presidency in a way that is, is, has not been used so much by american presidents and that they and i wonder whether now this is setting up a norm from donald trump to joe biden, back to donald trump, who we're going to see this continue today with a slew of executive orders, many of which will overturn the executive orders that have just been issued by joe biden. is this the pattern going forward? and if it's not, what breaks that pattern? >> because it's hard to see. >> now, a president who doesn't think that this is once you've given a president these kind of powers, and once a president has used these kind of powers, it would take a very different type of president to step back and say, no, let's distribute the power more evenly. >> yeah. and let's hope we have that president at some point. so, ali, take us, take us. set the scene for us, if you will,

in washington dc. obviously frigid all accounts that we see in the new york times, washington post, wall street journal, financial times, we see on television a lot of disappointed trump supporters who weren't going to be able to see any of the ceremonies, see any of the speeches, even people who gave an awful lot of money are being excluded from a lot of these events just because of the crush of very wealthy donors there. so obviously it's frigid there. a lot of people are going to be walking around before going back into their hotel rooms to see the inaugural ceremonies, but then later congress is actually going to start the confirmation process again for marco rubio and a few others. tell us what's in store for the rest of the day with with what donald trump is expecting, what we're expecting for donald trump and also from

congress. >> well, we always see this flurry of activity on inauguration day from congress as they try to set the incoming president up with the cabinet that he has selected. in many of these cases, we saw last week the absolute multiple number of hearings that were on. it was like the worst nfl red zone ever if you're a congress watcher. but that was all to set them up for this monday, where multiple committees are going to meet. and this is sort of senate magic. if all 100 senators say that they want to speed up the process and allow people like rubio, ratcliffe, we expect those to be confirmed today. but even some of the more controversial picks, like pete hegseth, the senate operates that there's procedure. and then there's what happens when all 100 of them get together and say, okay, we can do this in quicker fashion. democrats may see the writing on the wall for some of these nominees. in rubio's case, it's likely to be a bipartisan confirmation. certainly, we saw that bipartisanship even during his hearing. but if all 100 senators come together and say, we see

the writing on the wall for pete hegseth, that's a confirmation that might not go through today, but could go through this week in much quicker fashion than typical procedure would allow. and so that's really going to be the rush and the impetus from republicans as they try to get the most number of trump cabinet nominees appointed to their positions. that's usually the tone and tenor of washington allowing a president, the cabinet that he chooses and allowing them to hit the ground running. but certainly in this case, we're not expecting to see a wide number of them. but some key administration positions will be filled ideally by the end of today for senate republicans. so we'll start to see that push. but yeah, absolutely frigid here. katty hit the nail on the head i was walking around this weekend. you saw a lot of maga hats. i've been to hundreds of those trump rallies. it really did feel like the entirety of downtown d.c. was in trump mode. and it's a very different picture than we saw during the first inauguration back in 20 2017. >> yeah, that 2017 inauguration

defined by resistance, this one more sort of resignation there in washington. ali, very quickly, on the back to the cabinet for a moment. i was talking to some trump folks over the weekend who feel very bullish about the majority of their nominees chances of getting through, with two exceptions. tulsi gabbard seems to be the one where there's the most doubt that there may be republicans against her. and then there's just sort of the wild card of robert f kennedy, because there's just so much there, there that they're not quite sure where that process will go. give us a quick take on those two. >> i think rfk jr is my consistent sleeper pick for the person who's going to have trouble, both because republicans themselves have concerns over his abortion stances and the vaccine stances. so rfk certainly one to continue to watch. tulsi gabbard, i continue to hear the exact same thing as you, jonathan. and then the other piece of this too, is kash patel. and that's another one of the controversial picks that we haven't seen go forward into a confirmation hearing yet, but there's likely to be some explosive moments in those just because of who these folks are. so yeah, there's general optimism, optimism, but there's still a few, a few key pieces

here that we're watching that could fall through the cracks even as republicans fall in line. >> all right. the host of way too early, ali vitali, thank you very much. and coming up, we're going to bring bring you the very latest out of the middle east where a ceasefire hostage release deal between israel and hamas is now in effect. three women held for 15 months were reunited with their families yesterday. it's not clear, though, when the others will be freed. we'll be following that. plus, we'll look at the state of the war in ukraine as president elect donald trump takes office later today. we'll dig into all of that next on morning joe. also, of course, we have live pictures now at blair house in washington, d.c, where incoming president donald trump and melania will be departing at about 815 eastern time to make their way to saint john's church for a service that begins at 9:00 eastern time. so we'll be watching those movements on this

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hour. time now for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. air travel will be suspended at all major houston area airports starting tomorrow, ahead of a major winter storm. that weather system could bring historic snowfall to southeast texas. the airports will operate normally until later tonight, but officials say travelers with existing plans should reach out to carriers for rebooking options. southern california is once again bracing for another round of gusty santa ana winds as firefighters continue to battle the wildfires in the area. forecasters are predicting wind gusts of up to 70mph. fortunately, over the weekend, firefighters made significant progress in battling the two biggest fires. the palisades fire is now 52% contained, while the eaton fire is at 81% containment. we will follow that. ukrainian officials are

focused on capturing north korean troops on the battlefield to prove that they are fighting alongside russians, according to the washington post. kyiv describes the north koreans as, quote, highly motivated and better equipped than russian infantry, even as they suffer heavy casualties, the post reports. after weeks of relentless assaults, north korean troops have hardly appeared on the battlefield in recent weeks, which could signal they are regrouping or it could be a reflection of widespread injuries and exhaustion after recent attacks. and joining us now, nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons and former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul here. >> give us an update on where the situation is from, from your reporting on the ground in the war and also what that may mean for potential peace talks in the coming weeks and months in the

trump administration. well, we don't know is the honest answer at this stage. it continues to be a war of attrition. if you look closely at the map, you'll see in 2024 a slow progress in the donbas region by by the russians, but slow progress and thousands of huge numbers are still dying on, on the battlefield. so that's that's the reality of this fight. the russians are openly saying that they have not had a phone call, despite some reports. they have not had a phone call with president president putin and president elect trump. they are holding out their maximalist goals, just not diverging from those at all. things like insisting that ukraine should not be allowed to enter nato, that it. and then there's a gray area, whether it should be allowed, you know, whether or not they would accept, if you like, in some kind of talks, on

security guarantees for ukraine. there's another envoy where we saw steve witkoff yesterday at that rally with president elect trump, the middle east envoy, kind of celebrating what's been achieved so far in terms of the ceasefire over gaza. there's another envoy, general keith kellogg, who president elect trump has appointed to oversee negotiations over the russia ukraine file. >> i think, just as an aside, that there's going to be a kind of a more than a tension, maybe even a battle of its own between the kind of establishment that the marco rubio's of this world, the waltz's of this world, and these envoys that president elect trump is appointing, who will have a direct line to him. >> and keith kellogg is one of those who's on standby, if you like, ready to go in and talk and see what is possible. >> but there is a real question

mark, of course, over whether what's possible includes ukraine getting back the sovereign territory that was invaded illegally by russia, a huge question mark, frankly, very unlikely that congress is going to improve further, improve further spending for ukraine, whether the europeans can kind of backfill that huge question mark over that, and that has to have an impact on potential negotiations. >> ambassador donald trump, of course, said during the campaign he would end the war in ukraine on day one. here we are. today's day one here. >> here we are at day one. >> he's sort of after his election, backed off that a little bit in the time magazine interview where he said, it's complicated, it's going to be difficult. but what is your expectation under new administration for what happens? do they come to a deal of some kind? is zelenskyy forced to sit at the table and negotiate? >> well, i hope that president trump and his new team will understand that there will be no

real negotiation, let alone a peace deal, until their stalemate on the battlefield. and for there to be stalemate on the battlefield, we have to continue to arm the ukrainians. and if he sends that signal with congressional approval, that will send a signal to putin that he has to deal. what i fear is that the president will call putin before he calls to zelensky. he'll say, what do you want? >> and he'll say, i want these borders here. >> i don't want ukraine and nato, and you can't arm them anymore. >> and he'll say, well, that sounds like a good deal. >> i'm going to take that. the ukrainians will not accept that. i think americans need to understand we can't negotiate with putin and then tell the ukrainians what to do. >> they fought before us without our weapons. >> they'll fight after. but that's the scenario. >> however, i feel and i hope the people around the president, especially the secretary of state, i know he understands that. i hope he will articulate that to the new president. >> what is in president? incoming president trump's best

interest. can you can you tell us what your analysis is in terms of in terms of that point of view? it's kind of a strange question, but it's a strange one. it's one worth considering. >> it's the right question to ask. >> he needs a peace deal. he's promised it to the world if he does. the second scenario i just talked about, we are going to look weak, not just in europe, but in asia and around the world. >> so i think he actually does need a deal. >> and i think there's a deal to be made. >> what does that deal look like? >> president zelensky agrees to unify his country only through peaceful means, which de facto means he's giving up the territories. and he's hinted at that in return, we give them security guarantees. and in my view, there's only one security guarantee that matters nato membership. >> that's what's happened in korea, 1953. >> that's eventually what happened with west germany. they joined a little bit late and people said, oh my goodness, if west germany joins nato, it's

going to lead. >> we're going to poke the bear. it didn't have any of those conditions. >> because you know what? the soviet union and russia have never invaded a nato country, and nato has never invaded the soviet union or russia. that, to me, is the essence of a deal. i hope the president understands it. >> well. >> what is there a possibility of a sort of a quasi nato relationship? because obviously that may take a while. there's also some skepticism in europe about about ukraine becoming eu members rapidly. i mean, we talk and i certainly have about how we want ukraine in the eu, we want them in nato, but there are quite a few countries outside of hungary that are saying not quite so fast. so i'm wondering what would what you just said land for peace and what would a quasi nato security deal look like? yeah, it's a great question and the devil's in the

details. >> i don't like it. i want to be clear, i personally don't like it because i think everything else looks soft. and the ukrainians think it looks soft. remember budapest memorandum, everybody go google that 1994. that was a quasi security guarantee for the ukrainians. it didn't work out for them, but it could be a bunch of countries saying, we're going to be with you might involve peacekeepers. >> by the way. >> there's been negotiations about that. and i think that's better than the alternative, which is the alternative is more war. >> yeah. claire, the ambassador and i were talking before we came on air. and i think one thing to remember here is the number four. it takes four republican senators to stop cold. any confirmation process for trump's cabinet. and i promise you, there are more than four republican united states senators that will lose it if he tries to kowtow to putin. you know, mitch mcconnell, this is his driving force in his last years in the senate, is to

protect the legacy of strong foreign policy against countries like russia. and so if trump tries to go in and say, yeah, putin will give you whatever you want, i think he's going to have a huge backlash. that will be more than four senators that will stand up to him and say, no, that's not going to happen. we will not confirm all these folks. you want to be confirmed. and i think that could have a big impact on the first hundred days of his presidency. >> so, jonathan, when you talk to foreign leaders or ambassadors from other countries and they're trying to figure out what's going on, i say, you've got to always remember there was when we were talking about donald trump's relationship with putin, america's relationship to russia really was a split screen. there was what donald trump said. and then there and it was more like government by gesture. we could talk about helsinki, where you asked the question, but then there was actually government by action. and as claire said, the republicans in the senate

especially passed some of the toughest sanctions ever on russia and vladimir putin on on oligarchs all around him, even mike pence. i remember mike pence going and delivering a barnburner, a reagan cold war type speech in the middle. so, so again, there is what he says. and then there is what republicans, as claire was saying, like todd young, mitch mcconnell, others, what they do when it comes to taking a tough, tough line on putin and russia. >> and we saw that in the first term. senate republicans often stood up against russia. we saw even trump's own administration levying tough sanctions on russia. there was a split screen between the administration would do and what trump would say himself. and this time around, he does have some real nato supporters, including marco rubio, likely to be confirmed as secretary of state even later today, adhering to that same belief where there could be a difference there with the administration. keir simmons the same dynamic exists in terms of how this team will view the

middle east. you know, i wrote for the atlantic over the last couple of days about how the trump team comes to office with foreign policy, both challenges and opportunities they have, and they have some real hawks in the in the administration when it comes to the middle east. we are seeing hostages released yesterday. we're waiting for more in the days ahead. and a lot of focus will then shift. if the guns stay quiet in gaza to iran, with the return of likely a maximum pressure campaign. what's the latest you've heard in terms of what the trump administration might do? but more than that, how will be received in the region where there's some differences of opinion out there, how to deal with tehran now? >> well, the difference of opinion, frankly, just bluntly, is between those who say that iran is weakened and now is the time to strike its nuclear capabilities before it has a nuclear weapon. and those who say that you need to negotiate with iran, much like what happened with the jcpoa, that deal that president elect trump walked away from when he was

previously president. those who say that you still you need to negotiate the question. >> i mean, there are so many questions over iran would that its ayatollah khamenei be prepared to compromise, be prepared to even stand with president elect trump in some kind of a negotiation? would he be able to do that and satisfy the hardliners, for example, in the revolutionary guard? and if that's not possible, are there those inside iran who are making the case? well, we know there are who are making the case that iran should make that take that step towards a nuclear capability. by the way, the risks of that are huge, not simply that iran plainly could use a nuclear weapon, but also that other countries like saudi arabia, the uae, arab countries. >> let's take turkey, for example, also add that to the mix for their own nuclear weapons that other countries would say, well, we want nuclear

weapons. so nuclear escalation in the middle east is what we're what we're grappling with here. >> the question of whether there could be i mean, this is being openly talked about, the question of whether or not there could be a strike on iran, with its defenses already weakened by israel. whether there could be a strike on iran isn't a simple one. >> you can't necessarily be certain that you can take out iran's nuclear capability if you if you wound the king. >> if you like to use that analogy, that can be even more dangerous. and another point, that kind of a strike would need the us supporting israel with munitions, because the thinking goes that israel simply doesn't have the munitions to take out iran's nuclear program on its on its own. >> it is extremely challenging. >> and i think it's one of the potential crises that president elect trump could face in the near to medium term during his administration, perhaps more of a risk in the near term than,

for example, taiwan and china is. >> ambassador, let's jump back to ukraine and nato just for a second. >> one of the things that i keep hearing from leaders in europe, in the uk, but also on the continent, is that there's not just trump and there's not just the senate. there's also now the new factor of elon musk. and elon musk has already sat in on that meeting with zelensky early on down in mar-a-lago. he, of course, has interests that have been kind of supportive of the ukrainians and then perhaps less helpful to the ukrainians around starlink. he has spoken sort of, as one trump adviser said to me recently, listen to what elon musk says on ukraine, and you'll get a sense of where trump is going about, you know, some kind of a dmz in in the region. how seriously do you think the ukrainians should be looking at what elon musk is and how much of a i mean, how much of a destabilizing role in europe and nato more broadly is elon musk in this equation? >> well, that's a great question. >> and i don't have a great answer. everybody's looking at elon. the ukrainians have been

focused on him for a long time. they've been focused on everybody in the trump orbit for months. they've anticipated that president elect trump was going to become president today, and they're using all means necessary to try to educate all of them to the precise. >> and they use they quote back to them all trump's own words. >> it's ronald reagan's phrase peace through strength. >> and their argument is if you want to look strong, you have to push back on putin. >> you just can't capitulate. you just can't appease him. and i think they believe that even people like elon musk agree with them on that front. >> all right. former u.s. ambassador to russia michael mcfaul and the bbc's katty kay. thank you both very much for being on this morning, nbc's keir simmons, thank you as well for your reporting this morning. and up next on morning joe live coverage out of washington, d.c, as donald trump is set to take the oath of office and kick off his second white house term, our

reporters are standing by with what to expect, including trump's flurry of executive orders he plans to enact just hours from now. and as we go to break a look at the new cover of time depicting trump tossing papers and a pair of aviator glasses off the resolute desk with the caption reading he's back and we're back in 90s. i fight for my meals. >> you'll be back. emus can't help people customize and save with liberty mutual. >> and doug will. >> i'll be only pay for what you need. liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. >> everyone move out. >> we look a plus an

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tv. >> and there is a lot going on as we lead up to the presidential inauguration of donald trump. first, the president elect and his wife, first lady elect melania trump, will attend a service at saint john's church in lafayette square about 30 minutes from now. after, they'll travel to the white house, where they'll join president biden and first lady jill biden for tea. the two couples will then travel to the capitol together for the inaugural ceremony, arriving at approximately 1030 eastern time. at the ceremony, j.d. vance is set to be sworn in by justice brett kavanaugh. trump will be sworn in by chief justice john roberts following that, trump's

inaugural address is expected to last between 20 and 30 minutes after the ceremony concludes. the bidens will leave washington aboard marine one for a final time. the trumps and vance's will then attend a signing ceremony inside the capitol before moving to an inauguration luncheon later in the afternoon. trump will head to the capital one arena, where an indoor inaugural parade will be held, nbc news has learned. trump plans to sign some executive orders before the crowd at the arena. following the parade. trump will head back to the white house for a signing ceremony there, and later this evening, he will attend three inaugural balls. jonathan lemire, mike barnicle, still with us. and joining the conversation, we have msnbc political analyst anand giridharadas. he is publisher of the newsletter the ink,

available on substack. and pulitzer prize winning author and presidential historian doris kearns goodwin joins us this morning. >> it is so great to have everybody with us and willie. they tj has changed the backdrop. >> he has. >> we now have the capital of the united states behind us. we are not actually in washington. everybody that watches the show closely knows that this is actually our studio in greenland, our official. yes. that's right. yeah. but you know, but a lot going on in washington, d.c. right now outside the normal sort of ebb and flow of these january 20th, the 74 days. >> yeah. >> just in the time since we've been on the air in the last two hours, this story has changed, which is to say there was this sense of comedy, a little bit of a peaceful handoff, comity, not comedy. laugh, laugh. but we've seen now pardons issued from president biden to general milley to doctor fauci and to members of the january 6th select committee, members and

staff of that committee just issued within the last 30 minutes or so. we understand that general milley has put out a statement accepting that pardon. there was some question because some of the members, especially of the j6 committee, had said, we don't want a pardon because we haven't done anything wrong. we don't want this to be some admission of guilt. right. if you come after us, we're happy to stand by the facts. but it does appear, at least in the case of general milley, he will accept that. >> so with all of that as the backdrop, and last night at a rally, donald trump promising to free what he called january 6th hostages, those are, in fact, criminals convicted by juries, almost 1300 of them. >> an interesting setup now where you have him coming into office with joe biden making these big pardons, will that spur donald trump to pardon more people as they join together in a limousine on a trip after tea at the white house to go to the capitol today? >> well, president biden's statement defended the acts of clemency, quote, these pardons should not be taken as an

acknowledgment that any individual engaged in any wrongdoing, nor should acceptance be misconstrued as an admission of guilt for any offense. our nation owes these public servants a debt of gratitude for their tireless commitment to our country. and, as willie mentioned, general mark milley just released a statement regarding the pardon. and he says, my family and i are deeply grateful for the president's action today. after 43 years of faithful service in uniform to our nation, protecting and defending the constitution, i do not wish to spend whatever remaining time the lord grants me fighting those who unjustly might seek retribution for perceived slights. i do not want to put my family, my friends, and those with whom i served through the resulting distraction, expense, and anxiety. >> mike, what do you think? >> i think general milley is

absolutely right. he's a career army officer. the expense line is key here to anybody. if you're charged with anything under the egis of the incoming administration, he has been accused by treason, by the incoming president of the united states. he has it's been suggested that he should be hung right for his transgressions, which were not transgressions. so good for mark milley accepting the pardon. he did nothing wrong, obviously, but he spared the expense of hiring lawyers, law firms and lawyers. hundreds of thousands of dollars over nothing. >> we're looking right now that that that you were just looking at a shot of saint john's church, where president elect trump and melania trump will be going also right there, there's that shot who also have been going back and forth to the blair house, where we expect

president trump to begin moving soon. let's talk. jonathan lemire, we've expected for quite some time that this was going to be a very eventful day. it actually the pace quickened, actually, from inside the white house with joe biden. we were expecting it to quicken a bit after the inauguration. and all of the executive orders that president elect trump is going to sign. what should we expect today? what what are of all of those of all those executive orders he's promised to sign? what are you expecting to happen today? what should viewers expect? >> yeah, we'll keep an eye, of course, on the blair house there. it's a very short drive. it's about two blocks to the church. president trump in 2017, when he was sworn in, signed only one executive order on his first day in office. it could be more than 100 today. now, the events have changed because of the cold. everything is going to be the swearing in will not be on the west front of the

capitol, but rather in the rotunda. and then there'll be an event later at the home of the washington capitals and wizards, the capital one arena in downtown d.c. we're told that then president trump will sign both at the capitol and then in the arena in front of cheering crowds. a number of executive orders, largely on immigration, where he will declare a national emergency at the border, which will trigger more dod funding for support. revisit the remain in mexico policy, wants to recast the asylum rules. they will target criminal cartels within the united states, which may strain relationships with mexico. further, we know he'll move on energy. reverse some of the biden protections on lands and drilling. we pull out of the paris climate agreement yet again, reversing the green new deal policies, and then turn to the federal government, where he'll make workers return to office five days a week, as well as eliminate eliminate dei programs. he'll also start with doge, the elon musk effort to eliminate positions from the federal government and also, i think importantly, change the

nature of the federal workforce. we're far more of those bureaucrats will be political appointees. and that's something that's very different this time around than last, where trump felt like he was, as we've heard him say, undermined by career bureaucrats. the deep state, if you will, in his words last time. this time they're putting a premium on partizanship and loyalty to trump himself. and he wants to stock the administration with people who are simply going to say yes. >> and you've written an article talking about the inauguration of us bringing up the great point that for quite some time there has been this belief that donald trump was an outlier. he was he was a mistake of history. it was a glitch, you know, sort of sort of a glitch in american democracy. but as you write for the inc, you say, no, this is not a glitch. this is us or at least 49.9% of us. and so talk

about that and also talk about what that means for democrats and for others. casting a very wary eye on this administration. >> you know, i think for we've all been in these conversations going back a decade now, which sounds painful to say, but there was this fantasy that this is a this is a, you know, some kind of infection of the body politic or this is some kind of alien invader. >> the russia thing was sort of that fantasy of maybe he's a plant from elsewhere, maybe he's being manipulated in through kompromat or all these things. >> and if you have that view, then you then you're looking for these saviors. maybe, maybe someone can kind of expunge this from us. >> maybe bob mueller will do it. >> maybe merrick garland will do it. >> maybe jack smith will do it. maybe this criminal case will do it. >> and there's been a lot of waiting for saviors. >> and as i was reflecting on on what today means, it seems to me at this point, this is, as you said, this is us. this is a part

of us. >> and i don't just mean that it's 49% of our people. >> i don't think this is a sectional conflict. i think this is an intracellular conflict. >> i think these are very deep parts of what america is, who all of us are that have emerged in this man. >> i think there is a this is the country of get rich quick schemes and of salesmen. >> it's the country that has a love affair with oligarchs. >> for all the despite of all the reasons we shouldn't. >> it's a country in which we've allowed the truth to be optional. it's a country in which we've allowed a lot of our institutions to rot. >> it's a country in which we love reality tv, even though it's not real. and this man who's who's taking office for the second time today is a part of us. and i described in the piece the idea that this is an autoimmune condition, not an infection. if it's an autoimmune condits a part of us at war with another part of us. and i think what's going to be

really important in these four years is for the part of us that is not him that is better, that is nobler, that believes in the truth, that believes in institutions to rise up and be healthier. this is not about expunging one man. this is about making healthy a society that allowed for this day to be possible. >> well, and you know, willie, i'm a big believer in institutions and democratic institutions that have carried this country forward for 240 years. and yet for many americans, you you look and they see vietnam, which, by the way, said for years you won't understand donald trump's rise. look at ken burns documentary on vietnam. people felt lied to let down by by the establishment, by institutions. look at nine over 11 and what was missed there. look at iraq, weapons of mass destruction, yellowcake uranium. look at katrina. look at the

great recession. all these happening in rapid, rapid succession. and of course, look at look at a lot of a lot of different miscues. and for a hell of a lot of americans, they'll say. with the benefit of hindsight, look at what the hell happened with our schools being shut down during covid. and i say with a hell of a lot of hindsight, because much easier to say, five years safely removed from that than when, you know, we feared millions of people would die. and in fact, over a million people did die. yeah. >> i mean, i think that's what you've just laid out. and what adam lays out so brilliantly in this piece is the essence. that's that's the whole thing. which is, despite the fact he was already president of the united states, donald trump is still viewed as an outsider. and for all the concerns probably all of us have about his turning his back on norms in washington. most people, a lot of people who voted for him say, yeah, those norms aren't working for me

either. so he's going to go in and shake things up. and the way things have been done forever in this country haven't worked for me. i can't get ahead. i don't like what i'm seeing in the culture, and he's the guy who's going to go and change those things. for me and my family, that belief is still there. and don's piece, i mean, you know, i think a lot of people woke up the morning after this election after believing for almost a decade, like you say on that this is not who we are and said, i guess this is who we are. you know, it wasn't an accident of history. it happened once he came back, he did it again. despite what we all watched on january 6th, 2021. i guess this is who we are. and so doris kearns goodwin, i was ask you as someone who has sort of the long lens of history on all of this, where do you think we are on this inauguration day? where do you think we are? as donald trump, in about 3.5 hours will become president again, pulling a grover cleveland with those two nonconsecutive terms as president of the united states, where is america? on donald trump's second inaugural day?

>> well, i think you mention of old grover. grover cleveland reminds me of the fact that this comeback is extraordinary. he's the only other person to have a nonconsecutive term. and what you wonder on this inaugural day is, what did he learn from that loss? i mean, you would hope that he learned that things went wrong on his part, as well as what was being meted out to him. you'd think he'd learn not to have revenge for what the bad things were that he thought happened to him. you know, if ever there was a time for revenge. and i agree with claire, it's very sad that president biden felt the need to have to pardon these people, because it should have been the rule of law. it should have been what they didn't do in the first place. but nonetheless, because he has signaled that he was going to possibly put people in jail, biden felt he needed to do that. but if ever there were a time for revenge, think about it. the coming of the end of the civil war, the union's beginning to know it's going to win this war. but no recrimination. does lincoln want he wants reconciliation. when people call for prosecutions, people call for jailings, people call for

hangings, he said, no, there's no more hate. and you would hope that somebody who'd been through the adversity that that trump had been through, not only the loss of the election, but also the fact that he potentially was looking for jail, might let those poisons go and just go forward into the future. so that's the worry right now. is that trait of mine going to still be there? the larger point that i think is being made, though, which is a really interesting one about the nature of the country, i think we haven't realized still what covid did to the country. it cut across our country, all classes, all races, everybody, just the way the great depression did in the 19, in the 1930s. and we still haven't come out of the fact that when i saw during covid and we all listened to the fact that many people had only $500 in their savings account, that one need for food would undo that in a certain sense, that they had nothing left anymore. i think we haven't realized how how much of a problem it is in an affluent country like ours that ordinary people are having a hard time not just through inflation, having a hard time making it

because their salaries aren't keeping up with what the wages are. and what they need for, for inflation is producing them to have. that's not right in an affluent country like ours. and i think that's what our citizens have to figure out. it's much deeper than just the current inflation. it's whether or not the economic system is working to give people a fair shot. it has to do with education, the lack of mobility. it's not just that there's a gap between the rich and the poor, but the mobility. the education system isn't working in the same way it did the jobs that give people a sense that they can do better for their kids are not being provided for them. and people feel discontented and they're going to look for the answers. but the answers, i agree, the answers are in us. our citizens have to figure out what is it about our economy? what is it about our social life that is making people feel that they're not together? i mean, teddy roosevelt warned that there's a terrible problem for democracy. if people feel that the people who are against them in sections, regions or parties are the other rather than as common american citizens, we have a lot to do to heal this country, and

i think we better figure out how to do that. it's not just a search for a new leader, it's a search. i absolutely agree with what you said within us. what are we going to do as citizens? it always falls back on us. every big change that happened in this country, and this is what gives me hope, has not come from the leaders. it's come from the citizens. when lincoln was told, oh, you were liberated for the emancipation proclamation, he said, no, it was the anti-slavery movement. it was the union soldiers that did it all. it was the civil rights movement that got us what we needed in the 1960s, as well as the leadership of lyndon johnson, the gay rights movement, the women's movement. we need to figure out what we as citizens are going to do to make this country a better place, where more people have a fair shot to get what they want from democracy. >> as we continue this conversation, guys, we mentioned these pardons offered by president biden this morning. general milley has accepted the pardon. and now doctor anthony fauci, in a statement says he is grateful for the pardon he received from president biden. he just received word from his attorney this morning. the pardon had gone through. he says, quote, it feels good. and

i'm grateful to the president for doing it. also, capitol police officer harry dunn, who many of us have come to know who heroically defended the capitol on january 6th and became an outspoken critic of donald trump, even ran for office. he now says i'm eternally grateful to president joe biden, not just for the preemptive pardon, but for the leadership and service to this nation. he goes on to say that, like all public servants, i was just doing my job and upholding my oath. i will always honor that, making no apology for his actions, but accepting the right. >> all right. well, we'll be talking a lot more about that coming up. we will. >> doris, i wanted to go back to you. we're talking about the lack of trust and institutions and how that certainly helped lead donald trump back to office. if you look at the polls taken by the new york times and the wall street journal this weekend, so much of it had had to do with with a group of americans who want donald trump to go back to washington to

challenge the status quo, disrupt these institutions. i'm just curious, historically, for those that really weren't old enough to remember the chaos of vietnam and just the long national nightmare of watergate, that was a collective one two punch, the likes of which america really had not seen when it came to causing deep distrust in institutions. i'm curious, what are your thoughts on what lessons can be drawn from how americans moved past those two national nightmares? and, and as you said, came together and figured out a way to move forward as a country and to once again have faith in institutions that shape and protect our democracy. >> yeah. i think one of the

worrisome things about today, i think you're right. i mean, we did have a credibility gap during vietnam, watergate only, you know, contributed to an even larger sense of credibility about the government. there's a lot of polls that show that there's not a faith in many of the institutions. i think the problem with the press is a really situational problem right now, because if we don't trust in our working press, who have reporters who are working hard to get the news, on the other hand, we have misinformation and entirely different narratives that are going on. that brings us way back to the 1850s, when we had a partizan press, when you could not get any kind of news except by a subscription to your own party papers. so you're reading the whig paper, the democratic paper, the republican paper, completely different facts. and if that's the case where we're going to stay at today, unless there are institutions that we believe are giving us objective facts that we can fight the fact that misinformation is happening, then how are we going to pull together as citizens to work together when we don't even agree what the facts are? that's what's different today. that,

and i hate the worry to think about the 1850s, because that ended up with a civil war, a terrible price that had to be paid to end that original sin of slavery. so we've got to figure out what we're going to do about that. i think if we're going to get back on a on a platform where we agree on what's going on. and speaking of adding to the list of all the different things that may have brought us to the moment where we are today, it would be social media and technology. the rise of within the past ten, 20, 30 years. joining us now from emancipation hall at the capitol, nbc news chief washington correspondent andrea mitchell. and, andrea, i take it there's some 1300 seats there, but many more came to washington, d.c, to witness the inauguration firsthand. how is this going to work? >> well, all of the people out on the mall, of course, will not see anything. the mall has been reopened to people going to the museums here in washington, but not, of course, to the crowds that were expected. >> but importantly, the 250,000

people who were expected to be on the west front, the invited guests, the members of congress, of course, the, you know, the elon musk and jeff bezos and zuckerberg, all of those people. now, the selected few will be in the rotunda for the swearing in. >> the overflow crowd will be behind me. 1800 people crowded into emancipation hall here. >> coming in here will be the president. after he has been sworn in. >> he will make a speech sometime after 1:00 for about ten minutes. >> we expect that will be. >> and then we'll go in and do the signing, do the luncheon and all of that. he'll come back in later for a ceremonial review of troops. so there is a schedule here behind us, but it will be, of course, a huge disappointment to all of those, except for the members of congress and about 200 more people who will be in the rotunda itself. >> importantly, of course, right now we're looking at a picture of blair house, where the president elect will walk over to saint john's presidential

church. >> and the very interesting point about that, the last time that, to my knowledge, he was there, is when he held up a bible during the george floyd demonstrations. >> that's when he, with the joint chiefs, chairman milley and defense secretary esper, walked across lafayette square, milley wearing his uniform. >> it was after that day when they both objected to using military, the us military, against domestic protesters who were surrounding this area around the white house, rather in lafayette park. it was that moment that really broke the relationship between the defense secretary and the joint chiefs chairman, and he regretted that said so publicly. >> and he had been chosen, as you know, by donald trump. >> but that's what poisoned soured the relationship and the sad result all these years later is the fact that he was being threatened very publicly with prosecution. in his case, it was to demote him from his four star rank so that he could go and be

court martialed under the system of military justice to the former chairman of the joint chiefs, who had had this distinguished service in decades of military service and had been chosen by donald trump. interestingly announced at the army navy game a year precipitously because trump wanted to the former president wanted to remove the previous chair, the chairman of the joint chiefs. >> so there's that. >> there's fauci, of course, the police in who i've gotten to know so well since january 6th, those who testified and the pardons granted to liz cheney and the january 6th committee, they some of them said to liz cheney in particular that they did not want it, but checking with white house and justice department lawyers, they can't reject it. the pardon is the supreme power of the president. and so joe biden doing this is giving them a pardon that many of these people pardoned did not want and said that they would

reject. >> but there's no rejection of that. >> but what's happening here? you can hear the sound checks behind me. this is going to be the location of so many people who can't be outside and thought they were going to be on the west front of the capitol. >> mika. joe. all right, all right. >> thank you so much. andrew. well, what andrew mitchell just said is different than what we heard before, which is people had to actually accept the pardons that andrew said, this is this is it the president's supreme power to issue pardons. and that becomes, yeah, there seems to be some confusion on this because white house aides i talked to earlier said, no, there does need to be an acceptance of this pardon. >> right. but maybe if andrew, if this reporting is right, then perhaps there's a dynamic where someone could say i don't need it. but yet the pardon powers would still be in place. we could certainly check in. yeah. >> hey, alex. alex, can you can you check check in on that fast and get us. get us the law. >> but we should note, i mean, in terms of general milley, steve bannon just over the weekend called publicly for a. 1201. milley to be court martialed and then move on from

military style of justice. so this is certainly something that many of those in the inner circle surrounding about to be president again, trump were thinking about. and i want to i want to pick up with you one other point that andrew made, this idea of what the display in washington right now, where his rank and file supporters, if you will, are being shut out of these events, that things have been canceled. they can't get into the glitzy balls. well, a lot of his rich friends can at the same time over the weekend. what did donald trump do? this meme coin his his foray into cryptocurrency and the valuation that's gone up and down. i don't pretend to understand where it stands right now, but certainly he's made a lot of money in the last few days off of this from his supporters. and we should note on his inauguration morning the one thing that at least so far, that donald trump has tweeted or taken to x and posted is retweeted about the meme coin. nothing else. >> you know, we talk about this moment in history as the rise of authoritarianism around the world, but there's different flavors of it, right? and there's some flavors where you'd say the kind of serious authoritarians who really have an ideological project and are very organized and hire the best

people to drive their goals. and then you kind of have the grifter authoritarian model in a lot of countries where it's like some authoritarianism, it's some very untalented friends and cronies, and it's some money making. and we seem to be very firmly in that model right now. and the question is going to be, you know, how intelligent donald trump supporters are about realizing the ways in which they're being used, and it's possible that their love of him is so is so intense and undying that they will ignore for four years all evidence of the grifts of the fact that the metaphor of all of them showing up, but only, you know, jeff bezos and elon musk being in there is perfect is what this is. but it people, people sometimes don't wake up to cons when they're

when they're infatuated. and just one note on the pardons, there's always pardons at the end of administrations. let's just pause for a second on who specifically is being pardoned and what these people's jobs were to prevent millions of people from dying in a pandemic that who needs that's who needs to be pardoned. at the last moment, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, chief of staff, the person who is in charge of the armed forces of the united states, we are entering a territory when, in the best judgment of the outgoing president, there needs to be an umbrella of protection put over, not some despised figure, not some activist, not someone, but core core figures of the american establishment. i think it tells you more about what we're heading into than probably anything else. >> well, the people who held the line on january 6th and then called it out. >> exactly. >> it's quite a moment in history. >> so, mike, i'm curious your

thoughts. anthony fauci and mark milley and others accepting the pardons. we're still trying to figure out if the white house saying, you have to accept it. you have to make that decision. andrea, reporting that it's automatic. i'm curious your thoughts about the pardons on the pardons. >> i can understand, certainly doctor fauci and general milley accepting the pardon because of the emotional cost to their loved ones, to their families, as well as the actual financial cost of just being, you know, taken into court and having to get representation and pay for representation. but the thing that's been going around in my mind over this actually wonderful conversation we've been having with doris and anand over the past 20 minutes, is i've always thought that there are two elemental questions that are all wrapped up in who we are today and where we're going today. one is, if everyone at this table could think of what

their parents answer would have been when they talked to each other years ago, do you think your child, you and you, joe, you, mika, all of us will do better in america than we the parents have done. the universal response would be, yes, my child mike, that is. >> and i remember being in congress and having a pollster come in and saying. we ask thousands of questions, said, there's only one question that we ask that cuts to the heart of how a leader is doing. and that question is, will your children do better than you? you grew up with parents who believed that would be the case. all of us grew up with parents who believed that's the case. i know where you're going with this. across great swaths of america. yeah, parents no longer believe it and for good damn reason.

>> and that is coupled with the second question i would ask who goes to the fight? who loses the most? who has the most to lose? who went to the fight in vietnam, as you referenced about 20 minutes ago, who goes to iraq and afghanistan? who loses their homes and economic crises? who loses their jobs when the economy debts? >> and mike, how many, how many? >> that's trump's crowd. >> i bought this from a very middle class family. i bought my first home when i was 25, 26 years old. how many stories do we hear of? of the children of parents into the 30s, late 30s, early 40s having to either get help from their parents or having to live with their parents, or their parents,

moving out of their homes and going to retirement homes and giving it to their children. all across america. we this is the new normal. yes. and that is the antithesis of the american dream, isn't it? >> yes it is, yes it is. and that's why i think there's so much cynicism and so much ambivalence about where we're going and who leads us. it's all wrapped up in culture more than it is in politics. i would quibble with one aspect of what you were talking about. i don't think most of the people who are out there today in the cold, not the billionaires who are out there in the cold today to see, to just get a glimpse of donald trump. i don't think they're infatuated with him. i think they truly believe he knows me. he knows us. and that's more important to them than anything, because they've had a series of long wars, economic collapses, when they think nobody cares about me because nobody knows me. >> we've been talking about

these pardons. >> we've heard from general milley, doctor fauci, capitol police officer harry dunn expressing their gratitude. and just to answer the bigger picture question, these pardons are legally binding. they cannot be changed under the law, so there's no need for them to accept them technically, but they can just say that they're grateful for them. these people now cannot be charged under the law, but it doesn't mean that members of congress aren't going to step in and try to gum it up. so congressman chip roy of texas writes, the implication here is that they need the pardons. so let's call them before congress and demand the truth. if they refuse or lie, let's test the constitutional reach of these pardons with regard to their future actions. you've had some republican senators suggesting the same. rand paul, ron johnson putting out statements saying the subtext here is that these people committed crimes and that they need pardons. now, we've heard in statement after statement, jonathan, from all of these people, i've done nothing wrong, but i'm grateful for the cover that i clearly am going to

need under this new administration. >> whether to accept it or not is more about the public relations game rather than the legality of it. but we should also note, by receiving a pardon, they now inherently waive their fifth amendment rights. so if they are called to congress to testify, they won't be able to invoke that. if indeed republicans bring up whether it's a millie or a fauci or anyone else in the weeks and days ahead, as this congressman suggests they will. >> well, and of course, this is what i'm sorry on this day that i maybe, you know, there is a bleakness among 48.3 or 4 or 5% of the vote of the voters out there about what may be coming. i can't sit though, here and listen to statements like that from these members of congress. and it's as if, like me, of course, when i first got to washington, they just fell off a turnip truck. and they don't realize, like old people like me who have seen this happen time and time and time again, that

what goes around comes around. oh, you want to do that to these people who have been pardoned? let's wait for the democrats two years from now, and let's wait and see what those hearings are going to be like for every single january 6th. convicted felon or someone convicted of misdemeanors that will be hauled before the democratic committee two years from now. everybody always believes. and bill buckley always, you know, i think in his grand statement for the national review, he said, let's not be held captive to the results of the last election in that let's not think that that's going to frame what happens in the years to come. i can say time and time and time again, goldwater loses in 64. every smart guy from new york times, washington post, you name it,

said, this is the end of the republican party. this is the death of conservatism. two years later, the reagan revolution begins. and, and liberals haven't had can sort of control of washington dc since then. i mean, it happened with bush in 2004. they talked about the permanent republican majority two years later, nancy pelosi, speaker of the house. i just again, i hear these statements and i'm like, seriously, do you not think what you dish out, you're going to get? >> and the reason this movement and this president is particularly vulnerable to that is because there is a fundamental ambivalence in him about his policy agenda and authoritarian project, on the other hand, and his desire to make money from this whole thing on the other. and if he were a squeakier, cleaner version of himself who was serious about the things he wanted to do,

maybe that wouldn't happen. but when jonathan is talking about coins being released over the over the weekend, this is what you're doing going into it. he is going to provide such ripe fodder for two years. right. and yes, it is going to come around because he is going to create the conditions for it to. >> and willie, you look at the polls this weekend, i think it was a times poll that said 73% of americans were opposed to him persecuting, including six out of ten republicans, including six out of ten republicans. you look at the same polls when it comes to illegal immigrants that, yes, if they committed crimes, violent crimes, if they got here in the last four years, americans want them to go back. but if they played by the rules and been here for ten years or longer, they're overwhelmingly against it. so again, the question is how. the question is how much of an overreach do republicans provide for democrats? the bigger the

overreach, of course, the greater the opportunity for this to be actually what it was the first time donald trump is in office. and that is a two year run where you controlled congress and the white house, and you're so extreme that the pendulum swings back hard. >> two years from now, we're looking at live pictures. there's the incoming vice president, jd vance, arriving with his wife to saint john's church there in washington for a service that will start any moment now, as soon as president-elect trump makes his way. short drive a couple of blocks from blair house in his family. trump's family we've seen enter the church several minutes ago. so now just waiting for the president elect himself. brief service there. then he will head to the white house for tea with president biden before they move to the capitol for the inauguration. a couple hours from now. doris kearns goodwin, as we talk again about these pardons, i think it's worth reminding our viewers why donald trump is even talking about

going after someone like general milley and the false equivalency that's been put out there between, say, someone convicted of seditious conspiracy on january 6th and someone like general milley, whose crime appears to have been to be insufficiently loyal to donald trump, which is to say that around january 6th, he called around to allies to assure them that the american government was solid and under control. and it looks like we are now seeing a movement from president elect trump away from blair house over to saint john's church. so this is something, doris, as you look at history, that perhaps to this extent we haven't seen before in terms of going after people perceived to have crossed him. >> yeah, i mean, people who are doing their job as public servants. i mean, that's what all of these people have in common. but i think what it does is it casts a shadow. when you think about what inaugurals are about, it's a time for renewal. it's a time, as this team of

trump has said, he's going to talk today about being president of all the people. they'll be talk of unity and they'll be talk of light and hope, unlike his first inaugural. and now it's already overshadowed by these recriminations. i kept thinking all during the campaign and all during these last days, even after he won the election, that if he chose to go that route of recriminations, it would be going backward in time. it wouldn't allow him to go forward. even today, you wonder what's going to happen. suppose he gives an inaugural that is more hopeful, that is more optimistic than the first one, but then he's going to go back to the arena and issue those executive orders where the cheering base crowd that will be happy with every one of those executive orders, some of which may be necessary, some of which may go too far. if it were done in the white house, it would at least have the gravity. so the fact that this whole inaugural has been pushed inside, and i think it had to be, i think he made the right decision. then we know from past what's happened in those terribly times when it was so cold, when william henry harrison, the president himself,

caught pneumonia and died only a month later, even abigail fillmore and millard fillmore, who were the outgoing president and first lady, she was exposed to the heat and the cold, to the heat, to the cold and the wet, and she died of pneumonia about a month later. and then taft was told to close his his inaugural. it was already outside. the people were waiting, but they said there was an elderly supreme court justice and many elderly senators and congressmen who would not be safe in that cold. so he reluctantly brought it inside. and then lucky, maybe for president trump, when grant's inaugural was in a very high wind situation, people couldn't even hear him speaking, even in the platform. so i think it's a safer place to be inside. but the price to be paid, i think, is that if the arena becomes the place where much of his action takes place, rather than the white house, we're back in a base campaign reality now rather than president of all the people, and we just have to move forward. but today we can't move forward because of what's happened with these recriminations. we're watching

president elect trump. he has just gotten out of the motorcade and will be heading into saint john's church, but he has stopped to. president biden, perhaps take question the other way. >> no. >> melania waiting for melania and now heading in to saint john's for the service that will begin shortly. so as we watch these live pictures, let's bring in former msnbc host and contributor to washington monthly, chris matthews. and chris, as we look at these live pictures of the president elect, just hours from his swearing in and amidst a flurry of last minute pardons by president biden, what are your thoughts on this moment right now? >> well, you know, mika, i've been worried about how a democracy keeps the shell of democracy. in other words, continues to have elections and the formality of a democracy, but actually fades like it has in hungary. and i'm worried about how that's happening. and i'm watching specifically what's happened to the us senate. the united states senate has enjoyed

the power of advise and consent. they are they are coauthors of these cabinet nominations. they say up or down, they have to have 50% or the person doesn't get approved. and in this time, i've watched people like like all of them have accepted hegseth. it looks like he's going to be head of the pentagon. i mean, that's a remarkable decision. or that bobby kennedy is going to be head of hhs. really. you know, these are decisions which are unimaginable for the party to pick somebody who's actually questioning how we dealt with doctor jonas salt, dealt with with, i'm sorry, with the polio. polio. i mean, the fact is this is an extraordinary decision. and i think of what happened to the senators on the edge. why doesn't cassidy or collins or tillis, how come there aren't any senators that are willing to say, wait a minute, we're here to advise and consent? and i don't think hegseth should be head of anything, let alone the us pentagon. and this is where people like grassley, who's the

toughest guy in the world on candidates for any cabinet position, really tough getting into their taxes and things like that. they're just going to go along with with enthusiasm for hegseth, what happened to advise and consent? there was the best movie ever, maybe on politics in washington, which was advise and consent on the right of the united states senate to say, no, this guy for secretary of state is an old lefty and a dangerous character, and we're not going to put him in the office and let him become secretary of state. what happened to that power? they've yielded it to trump. it's been yielded up in an undemocratic way to this president. that is really scary. and it's happening right this week. they're going to approve it. most probably all these cabinet appointments. they're doing it by relinquishing their power to say no. mr. president, this is too far. hegseth has got problems, personal problems. he's got management problems and he should not be there. and they're not doing it. why aren't they doing it? because they are being intimidated in the next

primaries. they're going to face primary opponents who are totally with the maga base, and they're scared to death of them. this is undemocratic and this is where we're headed. and that's the big picture. and so i worry about that. i worry about him. trump pardoning all the j as he calls the j six heroes. give me a break. they went into the capitol where i worked for all those years and destroyed the place, and they made it clear that they were trying to bring down the government and possibly kill some of our leaders, like pelosi and mike pence. they were in there to do it. and thank god the metropolitan police arrived in time to stop them. but it was only because the police came in and protected our our constitution and our republic. it's only because the cops showed up that they stopped, right? and this guy is going to pardon these people. it's unbelievable. >> you know? john, we have have reporting. i certainly what chris has just laid out is the great fear of many, many people.

ali, ali this morning, i know you also and other people reporting that there are going to be a lot of a lot of these nominees that are going to go through. there still are a few question marks out there right now as as ali vitali reported and you've reported also, tulsi gabbard seem to be in trouble in getting to that 50 threshold. rfk jr again, in part because there are a lot of conservatives that do not want a pro-choice, liberal or progressive running hhs in trouble. we keep hearing kash patel as someone who, when that name comes up, obviously a lot of questions there and on, on, on pete hegseth, i think i think you still have the question of where is lisa murkowski going to be? where is susan collins going to be? where is mitch mcconnell going to be? and i brought up before todd

young, who is who has spent his adult life concerned about the national security of the united states, as projected from, from from armed forces. so chris brings up a lot of salient points, a lot of reasons that a lot of americans are fearful. there is reporting, though, that there still may be a fight ahead, at least for a few of these nominees. >> yeah, we could talk to them real quick. a lot of on pete hegseth, senator joni ernst was seen by many as the possible swing. no vote against him. that's no longer the case. but you're right. senator young and others still remain unknown. where they stand, i will simply say people i've talked to in trump world feel like that. hegseth is in their internal whip count. they think. they think they think hegseth. they think hegseth will get through. the other three are more up for grabs. president trump, about to be president trump again, has privately confided to people he feels that tulsi gabbard is the one most in trouble. he recognizes that's his his own call that he and his advisers

have made, and simply his own consumption of the media coverage, which he does constantly. they suggest that she might be the one most in trouble. you raise the reasons why robert f kennedy jr, though there might he might pick up some democratic votes. there's some republicans are anxious about him. mike pence, trump's former vice president, in fact, has been trying to rally republicans on the senate to oppose robert f kennedy jr because he is indeed pro-choice. and then there's kash patel, who has flown under the radar. for the most part. he hasn't had any hearings yet. he spent some time on the hill, but he was overshadowed by others. but i think it was a tell. we talked about this last week when pam bondi, trump's attorney general, had her hearings, and there is a sense that she will be approved without much difficulty. she had to field. in so many questions about kash patel, it felt like it was patel's hearing. yeah, patel is the one who has outlined the enemies list that so many people are concerned about. so i think that's a preview, perhaps that when that hearing gets scheduled and it hasn't yet, when that hearing gets scheduled, he may have a tough go as well. >> and you you've written at length since the election that

we need to as i often say, quoting an old admiral, we need to make sure that we separate the ground noise from the signal. it is important to remember, again, this is not going to be cut and dry when we're talking about the courts. there are going to be judge eileen cannon's who are going to give donald trump whatever he wants. there are going to be, though justices from the most conservative circuit, the 11th circuit, that are going to push back have already pushed back on something very personal to him, as they did throughout the first term. the supreme court voted, 5 to 4 that president trump had to go do the one thing he did not want to do, and that is stand before the judge and be have judgment entered in him being a felon. but the supreme court, 5 to 4 voted against that. we

brought up the 38 republicans that listened to elon musk's threats and donald trump's threats, and then voted no against that. cr so it is it is going to be a balancing act for all of us to try to figure out, to try to separate the signal from the ground noise, to try to figure out where the real risks and the real threats are, and what are the things that, as you've said before, we need to let pass. >> yeah. >> and, you know, i think you and you and i have have spent now again, about ten years talking about this question of institutions and to what extent they were going to stand up to what we were seeing and not. and, you know, our institutions are not going to be better than us. and so, in some ways, what the spectacle we are seeing today and the transition of power we're seeing is, is part of kind of two deep tendencies in american life. there's a generous tendency. we're a

country of immigrants that accepts people from everywhere in the world, walk down the street, any, any direction from here. and it's people from everywhere. and we're a country that had slavery and segregation and mass incarceration. we're a country that is capable of allowing so many people, as we and i talked about last week, to start their businesses, have dreams, build things, and we're a country that makes life very, very hard for people, right? right now to have a house. a lot of people don't not starting families, not having children because they don't feel the rudiments of life there. we are both of these things. and, you know, the conversation we were having with doris, also, i don't think the conversation we've been having this morning should depress people. part of what i mean to say in that this is about us is that you don't have to wait to see what he does. there is work for us to do right now. and over these four years in rebuilding all these conditions of the country, rebuilding the things you were talking about, those are things everyone can do. those are things about how our

neighborhoods function, how our the companies we work for function, how we as journalists do our jobs. this is not, i think, the dynamic of waiting to see what he does is a poisonous dynamic, but it is also an abdication for all of us. the health of our country actually depends on millions of choices we all make every day, and there is work to do to ensure that that more generous tendency in american life defeats the other one. >> and really, as anand says, and as he's pointed out several times, sort of channeling the boss brings bruce springsteen, you can waste your summers praying in vain for a savior to rise from these streets. and i think anand has brought up such a great point that it was like, okay, rod rosenstein is going to save us from this, and mueller is going to save us from this and just go down the list. and anand's point time and time

again is, you know, our government is as good as we are and it's up to us. and maybe a lot of people needed to learn that, that it wasn't going to be a judge or a prosecutor or a special counsel that was going to deliver the people who don't like donald trump from donald trump. >> it is, in fact, the people. and doris, as we watch these scenes from washington this morning, president trump and his family, vice incoming vice president jd vance and his family inside saint john's church, they're not far from the white house in a service right now. before they do, head over to the white house for tea with the bidens. your final thoughts this morning on what we're seeing and what lays ahead? >> i think the final thought is just to follow what you guys have been just saying, which is we are citizens still have the power to decide what kind of a country we want it to be. the problem for us is we don't know how our our situation is going to end. people didn't know that during the depression. they didn't know that during world war two. they didn't know that

during the civil war, they didn't give up. they kept fighting. and it turned out that those things worked. the civil war ended with emancipation. world war two ended with the allies won. we're in that situation now, but we have the chance to write the chapter of our next story. and if we give up and we just sit there and argue about what's happening, i agree so much with saying we have to have belief in ourselves, and we've come through this country before through much greater difficulties, and we've emerged with greater strength. i still believe that that's what history tells us. my only worry is that we're not studying history enough to give our young people a sense that we've been through these tough times before. we've come out of them and we found ourselves, we found ourselves righted, and the citizens often did it. and if you don't know your history, then you're going to feel alone in this period of time and think, this is all we have. we have a chance to make this right, and i think we will. so well said presidential historian doris kearns goodwin. thank you very much. her recent book is entitled an unfinished love story a personal history of the 1960s. we're going to sneak

in a quick break for two minutes. we've got much more ahead on this inauguration day. we'll get a live report from the capital one arena, where donald trump's inaugural parade will take place later today. we'll be right back. ♪♪ no. ♪♪ -no. -nuh-uh. ♪♪ yeah. oh. yes. ♪♪ oh yeah. yes. isn't this great? yeeaahhhh!! ♪♪ yeah, i could do a cartwheel in here. oh hey! would you like to join us? no. we would love to join you.

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included, for only $15 a month. obligations. get the real value from your life insurance when you need it with abacus. >> all right, to recap for you live in washington happening right now. president elect donald trump and his wife melania and family members, as well as the vice president elect and his family are in a short

church service at saint john's. there you see right now and after the service ends, donald trump and his wife melania will head to the white house. the incoming president will have tea with president joe biden and first lady jill biden, and then they will head up to capitol hill and the inaugural proceedings will take place. this is quite a day in history. amid a flurry of last minute pardons put out by president biden, we are getting ready for president elect donald trump to take over again in his second term as president. >> so, john, why don't you get us up to date with the church service? also, the pardons, who we've heard from those pardons and also the news, there had been some contradiction earlier about whether you had to accept the pardons or not. get us up to

date on all of that. >> yeah. first we're looking at saint john's church. they're the church of the presidents, as it's known, just north of lafayette park, just a block or so north of the white house. president elect trump, melania trump, his family, close advisers have all entered in the last 15. >> or who else is in there? >> do you know, we also have in addition to we saw jd vance walk in, we also have other new trump supporters have joined, in fact, mark zuckerberg, tim cook, jeff bezos, some of these tech giants who have been spotted a number of events, they're actually in the pews now in the church, spotted by they were religious. >> i didn't either. have they found jesus? >> they found something in the last future, spotted by the press pool that's inside all of those tech leaders inside that church and are expected to participate in the inaugural events later today. when this ends, there'll be a brief lull. and then donald trump and melania trump will head to the white house, where indeed they will have tea with president biden and first lady jill biden. just a short time after president biden made real news

by issuing a series of pardons this morning, preemptive pardons to the likes of chairman mark milley, head of the joint chiefs of staff, doctor fauci, members of the january 6th select committee and their staffs, as well as some of the capitol police officers who testified in the january 6th committee hearings. those, of course, who defended the capitol during the insurrection. and we did receive clarification on the nature of these pardons. they are legally binding. the president has signed them. they are done. in effect. it's up to the people receiving them, whether or not they want to comment publicly. yes, i accept this. i'm grateful. whether they stay silent, whether they say, no, i don't need it. so far, the public comments we've heard from milley, fauci officer dunn have all said they're grateful for the findings, are grateful. >> and, willie, we have we have heard also from some republicans and some congressional republicans who have suggested that they are going to do what many have thought they would do anyway, and that is pull some of these people up to the hill,

make them hire attorneys, make them spend a great deal of money. of course, chances are very good that if, let's say, doctor fauci or mark milley, general milley were called up to congress, i would guess the legal defense fund would be able to probably float a, a, a midsize navy for a country. yeah. >> i mean, so these, to be clear, doctor fauci, general milley, the members of the january 6th committee and the staff, the capitol police officers who received these pardons today cannot be charged under the law. but what we've heard this morning from republicans on capitol hill already is okay. now, this is an admission of guilt. if you're accepting a pardon, you don't do that. if you haven't done something wrong. this is their argument. anyway. let's get them up on capitol hill. we can certainly question them. we can expose everything and ask these questions about what took place under covid, for example, under doctor fauci. the question is, do you want to consume the beginning of the second term,

talking about covid? do you want to consume the beginning of the second term, talking about perceived slights that general milley may have made against donald trump four and a half, five years ago? it's an open question. >> if this is i doubt that's in president incoming president trump's best interest to have milley being questioned or fauci being questioned about how they upheld the law and what they did to hold the line. i think ultimately that might not be productive. if you're thinking in president trump's best interest. >> but right now, no, no, and we've said that before, willie, i mean, if you're if you're thinking if you're a strategist thinking about what's best for the incoming president, the new president, do you really want to go back over the handling of covid? because, yes, you can point to one issue or another issue, but i guarantee you the january 6th committee, i guarantee you, jamie raskin is going to have every clip of every unfortunate statement said

by then president trump. and, i mean, it would it would unfurl something that that is politically more advantageous for him to leave in the rear view mirror. same thing with january 6th, i ask. >> seems counterproductive. >> does comber, does loudermilk do any of these men really want to invite liz cheney to capitol hill to let her to give her a microphone? we learned this in congress. like we every time we would go up against newt gingrich about balancing the budget. and we had trouble. you know, he always made the mistake of turning the mic give handed us the microphone, and then they'd get up and have the microphone and, and it was game set match. so same thing. you are these people really going to give liz cheney the microphone and ask her questions and let her talk with 20 million people watching about january 6th? i

don't think so. >> and bennie thompson, the chairman of the committee there, saying, you want to run back the january 6th subcommittee hearing. we can do that. so we'll see. this is a we heard from rand paul, ron johnson, chip roy, some republican, some who said, okay, they're guilty. let's go get them. we'll see if donald trump really wants to head down that path. one other name that is we've seen in the church, the ceo of tiktok. >> oh, come on, a businessman from singapore, a businessman from singapore. come on. >> who donald trump is now taking and receiving in many quarters credit for restoring tiktok to people's phones so quickly, we're told. >> according to bloomberg, the ceo of tiktok, a businessman from singapore, is inside saint. >> well-known christian corporation. sure, yes. >> tiktok? >> yes. >> meta. yes. oh my. apple. yeah. >> this is christianity has grown a lot this morning alone. well, a lot of new new members. >> yes. i mean, i've always said we're in the conversion business, baby. a lot of the

richest plutocrats on the planet kind of convert. now, let's let's bring in a man who actually knows about conversions. he's the president of the national action network and the host of msnbc's politics nation. reverend al sharpton, also national reporter for the new york times, jeremy peters and chris matthews are with us as well. so, reverend al, i want to let's let's turn the page just for one minute, if we can, and talk about what you're doing today and. in celebration of the life, the ministry, the extraordinary political advancement that happened because of a georgia preacher named reverend martin luther king jr, we are here in washington today, national action network and other civil rights groups. >> we will be having a rally at metropolitan ame church. it's a

historic church where in 1895, they had the funeral of frederick douglass there. >> and then a century later, the body of rosa parks was brought there. and we're going to rally to say that we must keep the things that doctor king lived and died for alive. doctor king fought for the poor, for a economic rights for everybody. doctor king fought for an open and fair society. voting rights came out of the king movement, which is under threat now, and the battle against dai, which this president, incoming president has said he was against. so we're going to as he takes his oath, we'll respect it. we're not january 6th insurrectionists. we're not marching down near the inauguration. we're going to rally at the church, and then we're going to put up our hand and take an oath to keep doctor king's dream alive. we're going to look at corporations that say they are against die now because of what the president trump has said. fine. you don't want diversity in your corporation. you should not have diversity

among consumers. and we're going to do a 90 day study and release that. it is important to us that on the king holiday that we not lose sight of what doctor king stood for. and it would be to me an offensive and insulting to a pardon. rioters, violent men on the holiday for the man of peace that denounced riots, even his own community. >> you know it is beyond remarkable, rev, that you have so many corporations and colleges rushing forward, saying, making a public statement that they are not in support of programs that would push for equity, that would push for what america is all about, and that is inclusion. >> but, but but there you have it. that is happening. i wonder if you could i'd ask doris kearns goodwin to give us the lessons of watergate and vietnam and how we got through those two

national nightmares and move forward together as a country when things were bleak. and the question here is, is how do we how do we move forward together in times that are are actually a reason to celebrate? for about 50% of americans who are are very excited about what is happening today. and we're going to be talking to jeremy peters, who talks about how many of donald trump's policies even exceed popularity for donald trump. but you also have almost 50% of americans, almost 50% of those who voted who see this as a very bleak day, who are very despondent. two, you know, a divided electorate, which we have had. willie and i have always talked about how the day after george w bush's reelection in 2004 shocked many people in

manhattan and across the country. but here we are. the dividing line seems even greater today. talk about the lessons of martin luther king's life, especially the fact that things didn't, you know, it wasn't a fairy tale even before the assassination, that he spent his last few years in a political wilderness where he wasn't extreme enough for some members of the civil rights movement, and he was too extreme for so-called moderates. >> well, when you look at doctor king's life and martin the third and andre waters king was with us wednesday here and we talked about it. doctor king was indicted for income tax fraud in alabama. he fought through his house being bombed several times, way before he was lionized. and the nights he spent in jail. and then after he rose and was at the forefront of getting the civil rights act of 64, the voting rights act of 65, he still operated in conscience.

he was attacked by those who considered themselves more to the left, who said he wouldn't embrace the black power crowd. he was attacked by the established civil rights leaders for coming out against the war in vietnam. and he said that you have to operate by conscience. and i think that we find strength in knowing that if we stay consistent, in the end, history will vindicate us. we survived four years of donald trump before george floyd happened under donald trump, breonna taylor happened under donald trump, ahmaud arbery. we'll get through these four years, but we cannot let it make us become them. we have to stay united. we have to fight for equality for everybody across the board. blacks, latinos, lgbtq, everybody. we cannot let them make us be the progressive mirror of them. we have to raise it to higher ground. that's what doctor king would expect of us, and that's what we're going to do. >> again, we're looking at live

pictures from outside saint john's church right now. the incoming president and first lady and vice president and second lady are attending the service. and these are new to us. still images from inside the church. we see the first and second incoming families are in the front row. and also getting word that, along with family and friends inside the church, are some tech leaders as well who have decided to join in prayer with the incoming president. >> there you have ivanka trump and her children, jared kushner. also in there you see eric members and eric and laura lara in there, barron on the front row and rubio back there. yeah. >> in the distance you can see markubio. >> oh my gosh i just and there's mark zuckerberg saying i've been

here all along. >> what are you talking about. isn't it. >> so that is that's a point zero corinthians 2.0 is his. >> his. yeah. no that's it. >> is that what we're getting at. so the family is. yeah. the family in there of course, which is expected and loved ones expected. and they, they rightfully look joyous. it is fascinating though jonathan lemire that mark zuckerberg, the dude that runs tiktok, is he from singapore? is that it? yeah, yeah, singapore. and did did you say tim cook, tim cook said bezos, jeff bezos, bezos, elon musk, though he wasn't spotted by the pool, at least not just yet. >> but he's ever present this weekend, and all these tech leaders are expected to attend a series of events today. the inauguration itself, as well as what does what does that tell us? >> what does that tell us about donald trump's hyper focus on these tech leaders?

>> and. maybe, maybe just the predominance of ai and how much they're focused on ai? because i it's very interesting that, jake. oh, there's a clear shot of, of there. yeah. most powerful tech leaders tim cook, jeff bezos, mark zuckerberg in the back and the head of google there. but the real people's movement. yeah it is by the way we'll get to that next. the internal conflict that's really at the heart of the maga movement. but but but first, jake sullivan in his exit interview with mike allen and jim vandehei, axios warned that the greatest danger, greater even than the birth of the atomic age is what happens with ai in the coming years. and it seems that donald trump is keeping those that are going to

shape ai in the coming years extraordinarily close to him. >> yeah. this is on two different tracks here. first is simply we know that donald trump has always been impressed with wealth and power, and it's not unusual for business leaders to cozy up to administration, though this is a remarkable it is this this part is more than we've perhaps seen before. but i think there's also the forefront of tech. with ai, there is extraordinarily powerful. there's a lot of money at stake in this next these next four years, this term is this this administration is probably going to be when some guidelines and regulations are set or not set, including whether or not it's this stuff will be done here at home in the united states, or whether allowed to continue to develop overseas as well as well. so i think that's key here as these men donating money and also their time and presence and cozying up so much to the president elect as he is now just hours away from taking the oath of office again. so, jeremy, let's turn to your new piece, and it's about some new polling the new york times and your colleagues have done there, where you found support for a lot of what donald trump says

he's going to do on immigration, but not everything. and in fact, we're seeing here, actually, back to the white house. we're seeing the president, united states, harris and the vice president, harris pulling up in the first lady, jill biden, there outside the north portico. but talk to us about some support, but also some suggestion that some of trump's policies may be going too far, even for his loyal supporters. >> well, i think you have a lot of americans who didn't vote for donald trump. >> they certainly express a lot of dislike for him, but they share his contempt and his anger at the government and what they perceive to be the government looking out for itself. and this cuts across partizan lines. democrat, republican. you're talking about a level of confidence that is lower in the government than it was during watergate. >> that's how bad it is. and that, i think, helps not only explain what happened in november and why trump was able to win, but why the country has been going back and forth between republican and democratic presidents. and here

we see vice president harris and doug emhoff and a warm greeting from the first lady and president of the united states. but but, jeremy, when you look at this new york times poll, when you look at the wall street journal poll, you look everybody is talking about the price of eggs, everybody's talking about inflation. but you look at the new york times article and the poll numbers, kamala harris was not just fighting the, quote, price of eggs, right. there are a lot of issues that donald trump was carrying that a lot of americans support, especially on the border and, and tariffs. >> i think one of the best ways i've heard it described to me why harris didn't quite connect with enough voters is she didn't share the anger that americans had at the political system, at the economic system. i mean, one of the things that our poll in the new york times found is this

overwhelming majority of americans who believe that the economic system of the country is not fair to them. they believe that the government is there to protect the powerful and the elite, and they're for politicians to enrich themselves. and, you know, regardless of the hypocrisy of donald trump's stance, his embrace of these billionaires, this american oligarchy, as biden has warned about, that seems to be forming right now. people wanted a challenge to that status quo, and they saw trump as more of someone willing to do that than the incoming democratic administration or the outgoing democratic administration. >> wow. >> yeah. >> incoming vice president jd vance has left the church. the service appears to be over. now we'll see incoming president trump make his way over to the white house shortly, where we just saw a striking scene. >> yes we did. >> i'm sure it was not lost on some of our viewers in a parallel universe, by about a point and a half, that would have been the handoff to the next administration from president biden to his vice president, kamala harris. of

course, it didn't work out that way. and now the two of them, a man who they campaigned so hard against and have spoken out so harshly about, will join them for tea as they turn over the keys to the white house. >> i know we're talking about what it would be like in that conversation in the car with joe biden and donald trump. i'd also like to know about this conversation. >> well, the conversation that you're talking about with the vice president and no, the tea well, wasn't the warmest reception. no, that we just saw. >> i don't think there'll be much play out there at the white house. >> and the bidens have made no mistake of the fact they think he could have won, and they feel like they were betrayed by nancy pelosi. but there's a lot going on by george clooney, by chuck schumer, by you go down the list. they are they are not. their christmas card list has gotten considerably shorter since this election. they really do. they really do. just looking at the pictures it suggested as well and reading stories, they really do feel betrayed. let's

get really specific here. and i first want you to talk about what issues and democrats you should should take note. what issues is donald trump strongly aligned with with the american people? and what is the what are the guardrails where right where they believe if donald trump goes too far, then he goes overboard. and i think there was a wall street journal poll and their headline was americans want maga maga light. >> yeah, i think that's a pretty good way of summing it up. i think there are indeed a lot of guardrails, but trump has broader support for immigration. you asked, what is the big one that the public is with him on? largely, it's immigration to a point that is. so you have this overwhelming number of americans, this, you know, 55%, and that includes 33% of democrats who want to see every immigrant who's here illegally deported. they would support that. that is pretty striking,

that a significant majority, when you're talking about americans who want to see this number, is so much higher than it was the last time donald trump was in office, which suggests that actually, joe biden's immigration policies have been seen as a disaster by the american people and the american people. i mean, we asked another question in this poll, joe, do you support deporting the people who came here illegally within the last four years of the biden administration, when there was this huge surge at the border, and the vast majority of americans say yes. so this absolutely is a repudiation, shows a repudiation of the biden administration's handling of the border. and you're talking about trump's other when you talk about trump's other policy that he said he would do pretty much on day one, deport people with criminal records with 90% support? >> yeah, 90%. here's donald trump and melania trump, soon to be the first lady and president, again leaving the church service

at saint john's and will be going now over to the white house and for tea with the bidens. yes. oh, to be a fly on the wall. i suspect historians will will write about this. i will say it's very interesting. jonathan lemire and i know you heard this as well. when donald trump met with joe biden before after the election, there were several people in the biden administration that said you would have thought they were old golfing buddies. i suspect it may be a bit cooler today, but we'll see because biden is again, he's the institutionalist. >> biden is an institutionalist. and as you noted earlier, an old school politician who is instinct is to grip and grieve, shake hands and talk about, you know, be be pleasant to donald trump. and certainly i did hear that as well, from advisers to both men that they're meeting at the white house a few weeks back was rather cordial and even warm

at times. and trump had kind words to say afterwards about how biden treated him. but now, of course, the meeting we're about to have at the white house, this tea and then limousine ride comes not just hours before donald trump becomes president again, but hours after joe biden issued a series of pardons trying to protect some that donald trump had singled out for retribution and prosecution. >> and we. fascinating. so, jeremy, the big point and i'd love for tj if he can get it up on the screen, 87% of americans support the deportation of people who have been found guilty immigrants, illegal immigrants who have found who have criminal records, 87%, 83% of democrats, democrats. so this is one of the issues that you've heard donald trump and holman talking about early on. this is what we're going to focus on. that's what we in the business of politics used to call 80, 80,

20 issues. right. you wanted to be on the right side of the 8020 issues, and you wanted to avoid the 4060 issues. >> and what you talk about, what the guardrails, the flashing yellow lights for trump. don't do this. just pause when you look at issues where that is the case. i think that applies to being more punitive on immigration, right? people don't want him to eliminate the protections for daca. they don't want our poll found for him to eliminate birth or to try to eliminate birthright citizenship. so americans are with him to a point on immigration where they also are telling him, slow down, don't do this is on the persecution and prosecution of his political opponents you have i two thirds of americans who say that is a bad idea, and that includes almost a majority, if not an outright majority of republicans who say, do not go after your political opponents. i think americans want to see a trump

presidency to the extent that they have some some optimism that this might not be as bad as they remember the first time, they want to see him forward looking. they want to see him thinking about the future, not about vengeance for his for the perceived slights against him in the past. >> well, and chris matthews, you look at these numbers. there is such an exhaustion among americans and not just democratic voters, but also republican voters there. there has been an exhaustion. we've seen a lot of stories about it. we've seen polls about it. and i suspect the pardons today, the counter pardons, all the talk about that will just increase that exhaustion. but some fascinating numbers on illegal immigration. i'm sure you've heard from your friends in pennsylvania and the and in the philly suburbs, you know, a lot of lot of americans want illegal immigrants, especially who have criminal records out of this country. also, though, 73% of

americans in the new york times poll, i believe the number was as high or higher in the wall street journal poll that came out this weekend. do not want to see political retribution for president trump's opponents. >> yeah, there's a lot of interesting nuance in these guardrails. for example, the criminal records of people. no problem with democrats or republicans, get them out of the country and try to keep them from coming back in, of course. but when you get the people 30 years here, 20 years here beyond the four year limit there, the way people are concerned about it, they don't really like that idea either. there's a much lower percentage of people who support picking up a family that goes to church and works for a living and pays taxes and social security costs and everything else, and saying, oh, you're getting out of the country. i don't think that's popular. but the criminal group that has actually been convicted of crimes is certainly not a popular crowd to keep in the country. but there's some real other constraints to the stock market. anybody that doesn't

think donald trump has got his ear always to the stock market, if he pushes tariffs really cost to consumers and drives up inflation, if he does anything like that, that causes disruption in the world trade situation, he'll be in big trouble and he will know it first. so that's there. and i think i said that before about the senate. the senate has relinquished its role in advise and consent. it is not standing up to him. certainly we're not talking about outside operators. we're talking about the united states senate, the u.s. congress. that's why they're having this thing here at the congress. i mean, the fact is, it's the representative of our democratic system, our republic. it's who we are. it's the american people voting through their representatives, and they're not doing their job of advising consent. and they're not saying that the president no, you can't go. you can't go to pete hegseth. you can't make him in charge of the pentagon of all places. and you can't take bobby kennedy jr and put him in charge of polio and other diseases that we've been lucky enough to have doctors that protected us from with the

vaccinations. and so i think with this thing, it's got to be it's like a football last night with the with the eagles, you have to execute, you have to be lucky and you have to make sure that you have the nuance down. go after the criminals, go after people with records, don't exactly go after people who have just been charged, and certainly don't go after people who look like upstanding citizens, even if they're not formerly citizens. i really think he's got to exercise his office very intelligently and carefully. and unfortunately, what i think we're going to see is a big round of pardons for people that attack the capitol on january 6th of 2021. that's what i'm afraid it's coming back in the face of joe biden. we got something for you, too. now, joe. i'll throw away the aviator glasses, and i'm going to throw away your arguments about pardons, too, right? >> we'll we'll know that. thank you so much, chris matthews. we appreciate you being with us. we'll know very soon. willie, obviously, about the pardons. we'll also know about the tone of what what what is going to

happen regarding recriminations and going after opponents retribution and retribution. 73% of americans saying they're against that. siouxsie wiles, of course, is incoming, chief of staff told editor loose and has told many others he's not going to do that. he's not going to have time for that. they have a crowded, busy agenda ahead of them. so we shall see. regarding tariffs, i would just say it's very interesting. people have said before that no, donald trump, his first move is always negotiation. when you talk about tariffs. reports this weekend that when he talked to republican senators he said i don't want to tax people with tariffs. i want to send a message to people. i want to change their behavior with the message. we'll we'll see if that, in fact, is the case as well. >> he understands that that's a tax on the american people. we'll see if he follows through with it. we're watching the movement now of president elect trump making his way. we're told he may stop by blair house again. it looks like that's what

he's about to do. yeah. before he makes his way running a little ahead of schedule actually here before he makes his way over to the white house for that tea with president biden and first lady biden. and also, as we saw a minute ago, vice president kamala harris and first gentleman doug emhoff, which will be fascinating. i'm sure we'll get some reporting on that in the days to come. among those congratulating donald trump this morning, russian president vladimir putin welcoming what he calls, quote, trump's desire to restore direct contacts with russia and to prevent world war three. putin made those comments just a moment ago to the russian security council on the question on and of recriminations. we're always wise to believe donald trump when he says things. but it is clear from the polls that jeremy has just walked us through, even among the maga base, that is not a popular idea. maga media bubble. something totally different there. spun up about this, and they want to go after doctor fauci. and some members of congress feel the same way. but

the people who voted for donald trump, 77.3 million of them, they want their lives made better. and holding hearings for doctor fauci and general milley do nothing to that end. >> yeah, the central emotion propelling them was a sense, as we've been talking about, of being unheard in other, more legitimate quarters by other, more, you know, normative movements. and so there's lashing out and, you know, this, this, this work by jeremy is so interesting, these numbers to me, i've been working on a book with some of these themes, and i think there's a this basic sense of disorder that that can sometimes rise to above a certain threshold, changes in society completely if people just whether it's the subways, whether it's the border, there's some kind of threshold we all have for feeling like, okay, we live in a place where there's some order and some predictability and some correlation between effort and reward. and if there's a problem on your street, it'll be solved. and sometimes the society crosses that threshold into what

feels to people like a little too much disorder, like american carnage and exactly like that. >> and we're looking now we again, we're looking at pictures of the family, the kushners, ivanka trump. i think i saw don jr in the background. all all all leaving. but but i'm sorry. and also this is something that ezra klein has talked has spoken about a progressive voice, a leading progressive voice who said, i think he said, i've lived in san francisco, i've lived in los angeles, i've lived in new york. and basically he said, what republicans have been saying for a very long time, republicans, democrats don't know how to run big cities. >> and that feeling of disorder is sometimes based on real stuff. it's sometimes based on fake stuff. but it doesn't matter when you cross that threshold of people just feeling like there's no order. the system doesn't hear me. the correlation between effort and reward is broken. that is when that more miserly, cruel side of

people comes out very quickly. >> by the way, willie, you and i have been talking about this for a very long time. not a shock. i mean, we when we saw people going through stores on the west coast years ago and just stealing whatever we talked on air about how when you have a law that says it's not a felony, up to $1,000, you invite chaos. same thing with a lot of these other issues that have now come front of mind. you know, it wasn't hard for about 60, 70, 80% of americans to say that just doesn't make sense. yeah. >> and one of the themes we're hearing that donald trump's going to speak about is in his inaugural address is, quote, a revolution of common sense. and to a lot of americans, it's not common sense to let people go swipe $800. it's the little stuff like that that adds up and settles in. >> the toothpaste behind still locked plastic, still locked up, still locked up. by the way, speaking of new york city. yeah, fascinating development here. >> mayor eric adams, according to his press secretary, received

a phone call sometime before 1 a.m. this morning. an invitation directly from donald trump to attend the inauguration. the mayor of new york city, who had a full slate of martin luther king day events planned in new york city, got in a car with his team and drove at 3:00 in the morning to washington. so new york city mayor eric adams. >> well, as we watch vice president kamala harris meeting the incoming vice president, jd vance, and their respective spouses. so this was not on the schedule, but perfectly appropriate and always awkward. well, no, i mean, again, they look so comfortable. >> i'm saying this doesn't look awkward. they seem to be holding up quite well under interesting circumstances. and you know, now they did. i guess kamala harris never served with jd vance. both both senators at separate times. >> and remember, their debate

was relatively cordial. >> yes, jd vance actually won points among some voters for the way he handled his performance in that debate across from vice president. >> excuse me, from his opponent of the vice presidential side. >> but, reverend al, we need to bring you in on what willie geist just said. i wasn't i was not aware of that. eric adams driving down. >> i wonder what that's about. >> take take part in the festivities. rev, what say you? >> well, you know, mayor adams was at the house of justice national action network saturday, and some people are, you know, question him going to mar-a-lago friday now. and he spoke he said he only went to get resources for the city and to deal with the migrant issue, but for it to be reported now he got a call from the president one in the morning and he's driving down to be at the inauguration has political overtones. again, i think it's appropriate for all mayors to be

invited to an inauguration. but when you look at a lot of the new york press has been questioning on whether or not the mayor is trying to be pardoned for some of the indictments that he's facing. when you look at he's had positive things to say about donald trump, who's been under attack by many of us, to say you're not going to raise your eyebrows would be being dishonest. i think that this will cause a lot of us to say, what is this all about? >> yeah, definitely. yeah. >> and certainly, i mean, the his public schedule went out last night with nothing on the inauguration, in fact, just a full slate of mlk day events here in new york city. it's unclear whether he'll return for any of those in time. this, of course, comes as reverend al just said, just days after eric adams was at mar-a-lago visiting, you know, president elect trump. and there has been much speculation since mayor adams has, you know, himself been indicted federally that there is some talk of seeking a pardon, perhaps from president

soon to be president trump. the adams team has denied that on the record. but certainly there have been whispers, frankly, from the administration, the incoming administration as well, that that could be considered as we listen here at the capitol ahead of rehearsal, ahead of the swearing in in a few hours time. >> and we had started to talk about this before, but with with it seems like every powerful, the most powerful tech leaders actually attending the church service with donald trump. let's talk about the conflict that i've always thought was at the heart of the maga movement and some and a conflict that erupted most dramatically between elon musk and steve bannon. you've talked about how deeply symbolic i mean, it's almost i mean, it's a scene out of a movie where the

rank and file maga supporters who elected donald trump, who drove all across the country at their their own expense and very hard for them to get their working class americans, for many of them, middle class americans, they're literally locked out in the cold and not going to hear the festivities because of the inclement weather there the last minute. and yet the richest billionaires are on the inside and a part of it. this is what this is the battle that steve bannon and others have been waging, saying that these these two, these two very disparate parts of the maga base cannot hold. talk about that. and then, jeremy, i'd love to hear your your insights on two contradictions at the heart of this movement. >> one of them is that it is a

populist movement that says it's all about you. and in fact, it's all about donald trump and his own grift. but the second conflict is the one you're talking about, which is that it is a, again, a populist, working class, self-styled working class movement. and this time, even more than last time, he has explicitly pulled in this billionaire crew. and i think it's actually not for no reason. and there's a reason it is happening and it's important, which is he has understood that these leaders, tech leaders in particular, this is not halliburton, this is not general electric. this is one particular industry. right. so this is not just this is not donor service. right. this is more insightful than that. these are leaders who specifically control algorithms that decide what people think is real. okay. so they are in a very specific industry. it's big, but it's actually quite niche. and so we should take seriously his selection of that

particular crew as opposed to, say, oil executives or chemical executives or computer manufacturers. these are specifically people who are in the reality business who pipe visions of reality into people. and, you know, steve bannon many years ago worked in the video game industry in hong kong and was said to have realized that, you know, the epidemic of loneliness among young men who gravitate to video games was a big political opportunity waiting for someone to tap. so there's some insight in it. and again, what's going to be really important to see is whether regular people realize that they're not in the church. they're not they're not at the table, and that the very people who have actually been lording over their society and making them feel distrust of the system are now actually donald trump's bffs. >> well, and again, we go back to what jake sullivan underlined, how crucial the development of ai will be to not only the national security of

this country, but to the world. and the great risk that you have these individuals and their their corporations. i would say some of them, they're monopolies that have the power of nation states, in fact, i would suggest are more powerful than most nation states right now. >> well, you talk about the symbolism of this moment and who is in that church and who is not. i'm struck by looking back to eight years ago who was sitting in that church. it was really striking to see the evangelical leaders of the religious right who had been shut out of politics for basically a generation. they're not there today. they've been replaced by the billionaires. and i think that is very much a symbol of who has trump's ear at this moment. and the real challenge. >> and again, it's very important what anand said. it's not just billionaires. this is far more than donor servicing.

this is a very specific subset. these are the most powerful tech leaders on the planet. >> and much of the technology that they have created and are continuing to create will eliminate those very working class jobs that many trump supporters rely on for their income. so, i mean, i think right there that is another glaring contradiction at the heart of trumpism, the tension between the wings of the maga movement and why elon musk and mark zuckerberg and bezos have become such lightning rods for many of donald trump's more economically populist supporters. bannon, who i've spoken to about the influence of these these folks like elon musk, you know, ever the colorful way with words that he has, bannon said he thinks the relationship between trump and musk is going to end in tears, does not see it lasting very long. and i think a point of

tension that's going to that it's really going to come down to is over taxes, because that's a that's the big part of trump's economic agenda that he will have to reckon with. right. is there some way that he could get away with raising taxes on the wealthy, that his wall street backers and the tech billionaire class will support? now? i don't think they're going to support that. but is trump willing to at least entertain a fight with them over that policy? because that's what the more populist voices in the maga movement want to see. they. >> yeah. >> so we've got some vips. this is at the capitol now, arriving for the inauguration itself. we'll see who steps out of those vehicles. heavy secret service presence. so a high level vip about to get out. we are running a little behind the t with incoming president trump, first lady melania trump and sitting president for the next two hours. joe biden and his. excuse me, i'm just trying to figure out who that is.

>> as we look from behind there. looks like eric trump and his family. oh that's right, that's eric and lara trump. >> that's right. who headed the rnc of course helping donald trump propel to the white house. we're waiting for donald trump to move his way from blair house to the white house for that tea, which will be absolutely fascinating, especially jonathan lemire, given what's taking place just this morning, it got a lot more interesting. we got on the air at six to about 8:00 when joe biden, the president, announced these pardons as perhaps his last act, really, as president of general milley, of doctor fauci, of members of the january 6th select committee and their staffs of capitol police officers, anyone perceived to have been in the crosshairs of this incoming administration, receiving a penalty which protects them from prosecution under the law. as we see ivanka trump, jared kushner, who had large role, of course, in that first administration, have stepped back publicly anyway, but obviously still very influential figures in the trump orbit. >> yeah. and there has been a real debate within the biden

administration in recent months about these preemptive pardons. we know some who might receive them had spoken out and said, no, i don't want one. but the president and his team felt that this was necessary, that donald trump made retribution at the heart of his campaign over the last two years, and that he has identified both explicitly. and his allies have suggested that the likes of doctor fauci, general milley, the others you just mentioned would be subject to prosecution, perhaps, and that president biden, after wrestling with it. and as we see more trump family members arriving at the capitol, there's donald trump jr and his family deciding that this pardon was worth it. and we've been talking all morning about the precedent it perhaps could set. there are some misgivings, even among democrats, about these parties pardons being issued. others felt like it was completely necessary. and now we will have, in just a few moments time, the man who issued those pardons, president biden and the first lady playing host again to

incoming president trump and melania trump after a campaign in which, of course, biden considered trump a threat to democracy. but yet they had a warm meeting just a few weeks ago. we'll see what happens today. >> and by the way, there there have been concerns. we've we've heard them here. there have been concerns from democrats about those pardons. and so i'm sure we will be hearing more democrats speaking out later about that. but but but again, retribution is something that donald trump talked about a great, great deal on the campaign trail. some something that as we look at the new york times poll, obviously something that even even his voters and most americans don't want. >> yeah, we're seeing images there of the of the capitol inside for the ceremony and outside marine one, which will be waiting to take president

biden and the first lady home back to joint base andrews first and then home as he leaves office. but you're right. retribution is something donald trump has said. he's going to make it the center of his his administration, though he's spoken about it less publicly in recent weeks. the polling that jeremy and others have brought to us suggests that a lot of his supporters, even his supporters, don't really want it. you know, there has been concern among even fellow republicans that if he were to do it, you'd simply be elevating your enemy, giving them a stage, perhaps, and a platform. and that would lead to headlines, perhaps not good for an incoming administration, which is looking to hit the ground running. >> and if anybody heard mika sigh a minute or two ago, it's because a friend of yours and of a lot of women just passed away. >> former planned parenthood president and activist for women, cecile richards, has died at the age of 67. she had an aggressive form of brain cancer, but she fought for women, especially in this last

campaign, especially on the issue of abortion rights. until the very end. and a quick statement from her family. this morning, our beloved cecile passed away at home, surrounded by her family and her ever loyal dog, ollie. our hearts are broken today, but no words can do justice to the joy that she brought to our lives. we're grateful to the doctors and health care workers. if you'd like to celebrate cecile, today we invite you to put on some new orleans jazz. gather with friends and family over a good meal, and remember something she said over the last year. this is from her family, including her daughter, lily. so our prayers go out to the family of cecile richards, who did so much for women in this country throughout her life. cecile richards, passing away at the age of 67. absolutely. >> we're thinking about her family this morning, and as we roll up now, about two hours until donald trump becomes the

47th president of the united states, a lot of question about his reaction to these pardons issued today, but we have our first reaction. moderator of meet the press kristen welker, says she texted donald trump at some point this morning for his reaction. he replied, quote, it is disgraceful. many are guilty of major crimes signed djt. that was a text message from donald trump calling these pardons that we've been discussing all morning of people like doctor anthony fauci of general mark milley, of members of the january 6th select committee, capitol police officers who defended the capitol on january 6th, donald trump now calling those pardons, quote, disgraceful, suggesting there are people in that group that are guilty of crimes. whether he pursues that is an open question, but that's his state. >> we'll see what happens. >> yeah, we yeah, we will see. he of course, when he was on with kristen welker a few weeks ago or maybe a month or so ago, he was talking about how he thought the january 6th committee should all go to jail, that obviously precipitated it

was probably one of the things that precipitated joe biden's pardon of members of the january 6th committee. we're looking at the capitol, more vips now rolling up to see the first indoor inauguration. jonathan lemire since january 20th, 1985, when ronald reagan did the same thing. >> that's right. and there were certainly concerns about the cold there in washington, dc. we should note, not historically cold. it's been colder. other inaugurations, including when president obama was sworn in for the first time in 2009. and as a side note, what this decision does to have the ceremony at the capitol, it eliminates those photos that we saw so many times in 2017, comparing crowd sizes at the inauguration. that is now a moot point. there won't be a large scale gathering. and as we've been talking about this morning, there's a lot of disappointed trump folks in town, though trump supporters who have traveled at great expense to head to washington fly from all over the country. hotels in dc. extremely expensive this week because the

inauguration and they are largely shut out of the events. some will be able to pack the capital one arena this afternoon as part of the festivities as part of the parade, but the majority of those events remain off limits to the general public, but not off limits, perhaps to the influential politicians and tech class billionaires who we already saw attend a church service this morning with the incoming first family. >> jeremy, as we're looking at the dignitaries coming to the capitol and getting ready to go into the rotunda for the inauguration of donald trump at 12 noon, can you give us some more insight from the polling that that was taken by the new york times? and what were some of the key things that stood out for you, that donald trump will have support moving forward doing and what he will be opposed for going forward? >> well, as far as what people support, another thing that they have been fatigued by, really worn down by is american

intervention and involvement in conflicts overseas. you know, that is something trump has said he would do. you know, we'll see. i do think the wall street journal editorial today pointed this out, and i thought this was this was a very good point. trump has to be very careful with how he approaches ukraine, because if he tries to yank funding for zelensky and the ukrainian military, that risks looking a lot like trump's afghanistan. and he does not want that. he does not want the images of what a, you know, disintegration of the ukrainian military could look like. >> so jeremy, i'm so glad you brought that up because i have two data points on that that i always carry with me. when i hear people saying, we want we want to get less engaged in the world. i think about barack obama following the polls. overwhelming majority of americans wanted out of iraq. i was one of them. i said, enough,

we've been there long enough. he went he got out overnight and created a void that isis filled and filled it for several years. and we're still paying for the reverberations of that. again, not just blaming barack obama. we americans wanted that, right. same with afghanistan. people forget 65% of americans wanted america out of afghanistan. joe biden i don't think he ever got above 50% again after after afghanistan, after afghanistan and after the taliban swept through and took him over the government over immediately. >> easier said than done. absolutely. when it comes to withdrawing military support, you on the flip side though, joe, what people are less excited to see see trump do is they're less excited. overall, i think about the idea of what his presidency could look like.

equal shares of americans say they are pessimistic and worried, as those who say they are optimistic and excited. so you're still very, very much talking about a country that whose mood reflects the popular vote, which is pretty split right down the middle. >> we're looking at live pictures outside the white house where now president biden, first lady biden have stepped outside in the portico there to greet the incoming president, donald j. trump, who will become the 47th president of the united states less than two hours from now. also, first lady melania trump stepping out of the vehicle in a moment that, frankly, joe biden tried to prevent while running for president. and then after vice president harris succeeded him, she tried to prevent. but donald trump won with 77.3 million votes, defeating vice president harris by a point and a half in november. and now the handshake and the handoff of power begins here. >> let's watch. move the truck.

>> the truck. forward. by america's national. >> the first lady smiling, going in. jonathan lemire, you have covered both the presidents a great deal. tell us what you saw. >> we certainly did see some smiles and gestures from donald trump as he stepped out of the

vehicle. perhaps not a lot of warmth between the two couples at the top of the steps as they pose for the photograph. trump was fumbling with his coat. there, he opted to leave it unbuttoned after trying to cinch it up, the two men spoke a little bit. we heard we couldn't quite make it out. we could. president biden was offering some words of welcome, it seemed, and then some instructions for where to stand for the pictures. and then there were some shouted questions, almost undoubtedly about the pardons that president biden issued a few hours ago. we couldn't quite make them out, but neither man responded to them, and you could see president biden sort of gesture quickly. let's get inside, perhaps, and not take any more questions. donald trump nodded along, and the two couples then went inside. now, just a few hours before donald trump takes the oath of office, we saw them talking inside. >> make no mistake, the pardons this morning by joe biden obviously will will make things a bit icier there we see former vice president dan quayle and marilyn quayle going into the

ceremony may make things icier between republicans and democrats. i, i actually would be surprised if joe biden and donald trump inside the white house didn't exchange pleasantries in the way that old washington politician would do. but there is no doubt there is anger from donald trump and people around donald trump for these pardons. there are also democrats who were not pleased who were expressing their displeasure quietly over the pardons this morning. but but that happened. and it's going to be we'll wait and see the beginning of a very, very busy day for everyone. >> absolutely. let's go live to msnbc anchor katy tur. she is in lafayette square, across the street from the white house. katy, thank you so much, mika, and good to be with you. >> i am katy tur in lafayette square, outside of the white house, inside, president biden and first lady jill biden have

just welcomed president elect donald trump and the incoming first lady, melania trump, back to the white house as we speak, they are going to begin to have tea. a customary meeting between the outgoing and incoming leaders that, as you'll remember, donald trump denied joe biden four years ago. >> but from here, in just about 30 minutes, the two men will ride together down pennsylvania avenue to the capitol, where in just over two hours now, donald trump will be sworn in as the 47th president of the united states, not on the steps of the west front, but instead inside the capitol rotunda. >> an admission that there are some things presidential power will not yield to the weather. >> washington, though, is a different story. joining donald trump today, a republican party looking to deliver on donald trump's hard line agenda, along with avowed community of billionaire tech titans looking

to stay in the new president's good graces, a scene the soon to be former president warned the american public to beware of. >> in an address that called back to dwight eisenhower's caution on the military industrial complex. this time, though, for biden, the industrial complex is tech and his warning that we are allowing the rise of an oligarchy a problem people who study this sort of thing, say, has been building now on the right and left. let's go live to some of our reporters, msnbc senior national correspondent chris jansing is live for the capitol from us. chris, i just mentioned that there will be a number of very notable people here to honor donald trump on this day, who is going to be joining him inside the rotunda. >> we've already seen some of them, katie. >> they came in through what is known as the carriage entrance here, so named because 1837, i think it was martin van buren. >> and andrew jackson came in on a carriage