folks that we talked to. i think they really viewed this election as kind of a very difficult choice for a lot of them, really wrestling with it. and they feel like i said that trump is more of an agent of change. they saw harris and biden as kind of a continuation of, you know, the wrong direction that they saw the country going in and are really, like i said, looking to see more of what he does as opposed to what he says. so we'll see how that plays out. but there are certainly some of these voters who are very skeptical that he can get anything done and are gettable. still, for democrats, lower the cost of my cereal box, but no worries. if not. basically. bridget bowman, thank you for this reporting and for waking up early and sharing it with us. thank you. and that was way too early for this tuesday morning. morning joe starts right now. >> so this is january 6th. and these are the hostages approximately 1500 for a pardon. yes. full pardon. we hope they come out tonight. frankly, we're expecting it. approximately 1500

people, 66 commutations. >> are there any cases you did not need to work harder on the people. >> we're looking at different things, but the commutations would be the ones that we'll take a look and maybe it'll stay that way, or it'll go to a full pardon. >> that was president trump last night in the oval office announcing pardons for people connected with the january 6th capitol attack. that is despite previously saying he would consider pardons and commutations on a case by case basis and hearing condemnations from his vice president, jd vance, and his nominee for attorney general, pam bondi. of those who committed violent acts. >> also ahead, we're going to sort through the dozens of executive orders the president signed yesterday, focusing on the ones that could have a significant impact versus others that appear to be just for the base. good morning, and welcome to morning joe. >> it is tuesday, january 21st.

>> along with joe, willie and me, we have the co-host of our fourth hour, jonathan lemire. he's a contributing writer at the atlantic covering the white house and national politics, the host of the podcast on brand with donny deutsch. donny deutsch is here. former secretary of homeland security in the obama administration, jeh johnson, and the host of way too early. >> ali vitali stays with us this morning. >> so donald trump took the oath of office for a second time yesterday, becoming the 47th president of the united states. we heard that trump several times throughout the day. >> we heard from him beginning with his inaugural address from inside the capitol rotunda, surrounded by family, former presidents, cabinet appointees and tech billionaires. >> the golden age of america begins right now. from this day

forward, our country will flourish and be respected again all over the world. we will be the envy of every nation, and we will not allow ourselves to be taken advantage of any longer. during every single day of the trump administration, i will very simply put america first. my proudest legacy will be that of a peacemaker and unifier. that's what i want to be a peacemaker and a unifier. america will reclaim its rightful place as the greatest, most powerful, most respected nation on earth, inspiring the awe and admiration of the entire world. >> so, jonathan lemire, you've been looking at the two. the two tabloids, and there's your split screen. we've got the grim

speaker with the daily news and the golden age of america with the new york post. and willie, i think that that about that about sums it up. but yesterday's festivities were for an electorate that were that was pretty much evenly divided. you know, there are a lot of people that listen to what he said yesterday, voted for him and said, yay, america. we're we're coming back. and then there were others who actually looked at data and looked at facts and realized that our economy is stronger relative to the rest of the world than it's ever been. our military alliances strengthened over the past four years in a way they've never been, and that in fact, america militarily is stronger relative to the rest of the world than it's been since 1945. and yet that that speech, the events of yesterday, again. two americas

saw two completely different things. and it's george will wrote in his column. two americas just did not understand the other side. and there was one other thing that george will added in his washington post column, and he talked about manners. that sounds very old fashioned, but he said it also two americas with a very different view of how we treat one another. and it just. we're just not used to looking at these events, seeing other presidents and, and, and other people who've sacrificed their all for this country just being trashed five feet away. that's happened. that's happened now twice in history. but again,

this is what americans voted for. and the divide, again, is illustrated so clearly in these two new york tabloids, two americas who saw yesterday's events through two completely different prisms. >> yeah. >> if you follow donald trump, if you watch certain cable networks and read certain newspapers, his inaugural address made complete sense to you. >> the case is that america is a nation in decline. and he has arrived to save us, to rescue the country. it's the same case he made, remember in 2017 at his inaugural address. >> and you're right, yesterday when we were on the air, felt relatively conventional donald trump shaking hands, arriving at the white house, having tea with the bidens, all of those things, even walking into the rotunda there right up until the moment he stepped to the stage and began speaking, as you said, with president biden, vice president harris, all this, the former presidents sitting in that room and just to begin

trashing america in a speech that, as i said, will resonate with the people who support him and voted for him, because that's the version of the story they've been hearing for several years now. and then he delivered on what he promised that a lot of people hoped he were just threats, particularly in terms of emptying the jails of violent offenders. around january 6th. almost 1600 of them. and a slew of executive actions. he took that again were things he had said he was going to do. so it shouldn't be totally surprising, but hoped that someone could intervene somewhere along the way. as j.d. vance said a week ago, if you committed a crime, if you commit violence against a police officer, you should not come out of jail. that was the messaging from people even who supported him. pam bondi to pam bondi said the same year. >> the day was like tom jones. >> thom tillis said the same as well, and there are a lot of other republican senators this morning, right? obviously trying to figure out what they're going to say. >> so let's move through exactly what happened, because it kind

of went from from from the inaugural speech to the crescendo in the evening after delivering his inaugural address, president trump moved to emancipation hall, where he gave another speech to supporters who weren't inside the capitol rotunda. this time, trump aired grievances and attacked his political rivals, saying these are the remarks he was advised to leave out of his first speech. >> in 2020. by the way, that election was totally rigged. but these are the. that's okay. it was a rigged election. you know, the only thing good about it, it showed how bad they are. showed how incompetent. and frankly, historically, this is a much bigger event. if that would have gone like it should have. >> now, the president chose to have his inaugural parade inside the capital one arena because it was cold outside. the raucous crowd first heard from elon musk and kash patel, who touted the imminent return of america's

glory days. >> the president then took to the stage and used the opportunity to sign the first batch of executive orders, among them issues related to climate policy, immigration and rolling back dei initiatives put in place by the biden administration. >> but the more consequential executive orders came last night inside the oval office. >> there, president trump issued roughly 1500 pardons and commuted the sentences of 14 others in connection with the attack on the u.s. capitol on january 6th, 2021. >> the pardons included hundreds of people sentenced to significant prison time for their convictions of serious felonies, such as assaulting police officers with deadly or dangerous weapons. additionally, trump issued, quote, a full, complete, and unconditional pardon to all other individuals

convicted of offenses related to events that occurred at or near the united states capitol on january 6th, 2021, a category that includes other rioters who assaulted law enforcement officers, those with commuted sentences include individuals associated with the proud boys and oath keepers who were convicted of seditious conspiracy. some of those pardons included enrique tarrio, the former leader of the proud boys who was serving a 22 year prison term after being convicted at trial of seditious conspiracy, a crime that requires prosecutors to prove that a defendant used violent force against the government. as the wall street journal notes, the breadth of the pardons contradicted the case by case approach. >> trump and his allies had signaled ahead of his inauguration, and it flew in the

face of admonitions from republican allies who'd voiced opposition to the notion of pardoning january 6th, defendants who had assaulted police. those included his own vice president, jd vance, and his choice for attorney general pam bondi. >> if you protested peacefully on january the 6th and you had merrick garland's department of justice treat you like a gang member, you should be pardoned. if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. >> do you believe that those who have been convicted of the january 6th riot, violent assaults on our police officers should be pardoned? that's a simple question. >> so, senator, i have not seen any of those files. >> of course, if confirmed and if asked to advise the president, i will look at each and every file. >> but let me be very clear. in speaking to you, i condemn any violence on a law enforcement officer in this country. >> so jonathan lemire, a couple, i guess, willie said a week ago,

jd vance said, if you commit violence against a police officer, you should not be be put out of jail. you look at officer fanone beaten into inches of his life, and if you just want a split screen on the pardons, because i know all of us wish that none of the pardons were necessary yesterday and are concerned about what may come in the future because of those pardons. but you look at the two pardons the outgoing president pardoned a police officer who had the hell beaten out of him within inches of his life, felt the need to do that, and the incoming president pardoned the people who beat the hell out of the police officer. so tell me, how did how did we move from what jd vance was saying a week ago and what donald trump was saying about looking at these

from a case by case basis to where we ended up last night with, with action is so sweeping that it seems that republican, even republican senators are surprised. >> yeah, we're seeing right there on the screen is time magazine interview just after his election saying, i'm going to do this case by case. >> and if they were nonviolent, i think they've been greatly punished. but suggesting there would be a different category for those convicted of violent offenses. >> that said, let's remember his very first campaign event in this election in waco, texas, where he the first thing he did was step on stage and appear with the january 6th convict choir. >> so some of this has been telegraphed all along, but it did accelerate and it grew more expansive. >> despite what we heard from jd vance just ten days ago, despite what we heard from pam bondi just last week, and trump with he and his closest advisers now that they're in power, decided to go big to have sweeping pardons, including for members of the oath keepers and proud boys, going far beyond what even some of his closest allies wanted or even recommended here.

let's recall, of course, that some of these convicts, their sentences were handed down by trump appointed judges. let's remember, of course, this is the largest criminal investigation in the history of the department of justice. one has to wonder what happens now to the career officials in doj and attorneys offices, the u.s. attorney's offices, whether they will stay in place after this? some of these people there were there were parties last night at the d.c. jail. there were hopes that people would get out in time to attend some of the inauguration events last night. this is what trump's base wanted, and this was what he delivered. >> and let's underline that this is what he delivered. well, this is what his base wanted. and in reading the news accounts this morning, you learned that after jd vance said that those rioters who beat the hell out of law enforcement officers after he said they should not get pardoned, it was jd vance who

got attacked by the maga base, saying that all needed to be acquitted. and you are right, he. donald trump talked about this throughout the entire campaign. and this is this is what america voted for. this is what this is what democrats warned of. this is what donald trump campaigned on. and this is what americans voted for. and it's what they got. what i'm curious about curious about jeh johnson with obviously your your background and extensive knowledge of law enforcement and the dealing with u.s. attorneys. i'm wondering what what the repercussions of this will be, what the impact will be for each one of those 1600 cases. >> there's a federal prosecutor assigned dedicated to the case

who's feeling pretty disenchanted this morning. i would not be surprised if we saw a mass resignation from the department of justice as a result of this. going back to this issue of the executive orders, that's probably. >> yeah, that's what some would argue. >> some would say that's exactly probably what the trump administration wants the administration would want. >> yeah. >> well, somebody's got to prosecute violent crime in this country or somebody's got to prosecute organized crime in this country. somebody's got to prosecute terrorism in this country. somebody's got to prosecute, you know, bank fraud in this country. let's not forget that, you know, one of the problems with executive orders and this is a nonpartisan, bipartisan statement. executive orders issued on day one of an administration drafted by a transition team are done so without dealing with the bureaucracy that has to then go implement them. the cabinet officers are not even confirmed by the senate yet. and so very

often there's an unrealistic aspect to an executive order signed on on, on day one. >> and let me just say there was reporting about that last night that and i'm going to i'm going to talk to donny about sort of the showbiz portion of much of the day. we always talk about trying to separate the ground noise from the signal. most of the day was showbiz, right? >> and he undercut his own attorney general nominee by doing what he did. >> right. and obviously, last night was was the signal the not only the warning, but actually there were a couple the. yeah, there were, there were, there were quite a few, but but that said, a lot of those executive orders, according to reporting from the wall street journal and others i believe were hastily written, of course, won't hold up in court and they'll probably have to do it all again. >> they're i call them the executive orders for the full

employment of lawyers, judges and courthouses. there will be a lawsuit associated with at least every one of these executive orders. birthright citizenship. i learned i don't know about you. you and i are lawyers, but i learned sophomore in college that you cannot change a provision of the us constitution by an executive order. and birthright citizenship has been enshrined in the 14th amendment since 1868 to ensure citizenship for my enslaved ancestors, and it has been understood for over 100 years to mean if you are born or naturalized in this country and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, you're a citizen subject to the jurisdiction thereof, has meant that that an exemption for the children of diplomats. and so that will be challenged in court. >> but denying asylum will be a challenge, by the way, on that issue and on many of these issues, it ends up at the supreme court. >> and i don't think many court

watchers believe that amy coney barrett and john roberts, at the very least, will rewrite what the 14th amendment has meant since right after the civil war. >> i have to believe that there is a majority of this supreme court who will not just overlook the plain meaning and the plain understanding of a constitutional amendment. >> yeah. >> so ali vitali, we saw yesterday, speaker johnson, we saw many members of the republican leadership standing, smiling, clapping along while donald trump gave his addresses. i'm curious specifically about this executive order of opening the jails and releasing all the january 6th convicts, many of them who have committed violence with a fire extinguisher, a flagpole or bear spray or whatever it is against police officers, many of them serving long prison sentences, now free or about to be free. how will speaker johnson, how will republicans that you cover every day on capitol hill react to this? how will they rationalize this? because they seem to have

been able to rationalize everything donald trump does. many democrats coming out last night and saying, this is just an affront to our system of justice, which is these were jury trials. juries of their peers convicted these people based on the evidence. or many of these people pleaded guilty to the charges against them. now free. what will republicans say this morning? >> it's really the ultimate conclusion to the whitewashing that we've seen republicans all the way from donald trump down to rank and file lawmakers on capitol hill do when it comes to january 6th. i mean, you show those images of what it was like outside the capitol. we know what it was like inside the capitol. and then you issue pardons. you contrast that with the president coming in and issuing pardons callously, as if this is not a building that still bears the scars of the trauma of that day. every single time lawmakers and staffers enter its halls. you know, i had one lawmaker say to me that they were at the capitol yesterday, and they watched as the news of

the likely pardons was coming through the building, and they watched as the capitol police officers faces fell. and certainly there is going to be that kind of a reaction within the halls of congress. but it also strikes me that trump was quite easily able to make good on a promise that he repeatedly made out on the campaign trail. lemire is right to point out the way that this was always central when trump was out campaigning, but also the fact that he stood in the halls of the capitol and reiterated the big lie, the idea that the 2020 election was rigged was stolen. and that's the only reason that you then had people motivated and energized to go to the capitol to try to disrupt the certification of votes that would have certified, and underscored that donald trump lost the election. so i think people are not shocked. they knew this was coming. but i think my conversations with sources is there was a sense of incredulity as i was talking to

someone who was a staffer on the january 6th committee. they just said, what a time to be alive. i mean, those are people who, in doing their jobs, received a presidential pardon preemptively for doing nothing wrong. >> and as you pointed out, ali, this was central to his campaign. >> it was something he said out loud many times to great applause. wherever he went, which is definitely going to raise a lot of questions for democrats on how to move forward through that. but i'm specifically interested, joe, in the republicans, who are right now taking part in advise and consent on trump's nominees for major cabinet positions, specifically pete hegseth, tulsi gabbard, kash patel and others. will they look at what happened last night and will that change their approach to looking at some of these nominees, who some have a lot of questions about? >> well, i mean, if history is if history is any guide, probably not. that said, and we

talked about this, john, before, right now, even those in the trump administration this morning would say, tulsi gabbard's a heavy lift rfk jr. may be the surprise the and may be the surprise because because again a lot of conservatives see him as as pro-choice progressive. and the guy despite some of his quirky views and some would say dangerous views on on health care. he's, you know, he he may be a safe. no. for a lot of these conservative senators. i don't know, i guess the question and we can pass this around. i guess the question is if anybody's challenged by this and what happened, it would be most likely kash patel that will raise questions and thom tillis

mind. thom tillis, who said, you know, you can't you can't release the violent offenders, people who beat the hell out of cops and several others. and we've already talked about how the pam bondi hearing was sort of a hearing more or less on kash patel and what many believe to be his worst instincts. so i would tamika's question, i would probably i would probably say that if anybody were affected by this negatively, it might be kash patel. >> yeah, the smart money would say few will be because trump has demanded such and received such loyalty from republican senators. but i think you're right to highlight the three who are most in jeopardy here. we reported here yesterday. there are some republicans who think gabbard does not have the vote. it's raised eyebrows. she hasn't had a hearing scheduled yet. they're still claiming it's paperwork issues. but i think there's also some suspicion that she just simply won't get there. trump himself has said that she's the one he's most concerned about. you know, rfk jr might face problems from the

right. we talked about yesterday how vice president, former vice president pence is actually even trying to whip votes against him because of his views on abortion. but i think it's kash patel here that stands really to be the one who is potentially under the most scrutiny of what happened last night, because patel has shown his only his only ideology is to do whatever donald trump wants. and if he's already if trump is going to put his and he has the constitutional power to do it, but he puts his thumb on the justice scales last night and sort of undo what the doj has done. that's going to raise concerns. okay. is that same sort of freedom, that same sort of deference to executive power, if that's going to be what kash patel is going to do at the fbi, that may give some republicans some pause. donny, if you watched yesterday's proceedings from start to finish, had the air among republicans of a coronation. they talked about him. this was almost a divine event that his life was spared in butler, pennsylvania, so he could return and lead the country again. the way they talked about him as the greatest president of their lifetime. you know, all the language that was out there, it's hard to see any of them at this point. the way

he's consolidated power, crossing him on any of these nominees, it was a marketing tour de force. >> i mean, look like donald trump. >> i hate donald trump. >> he's a brilliant marketer. >> and yesterday, i'm not talking about january 6th. >> leading up to january 6th was marketing 101. >> he basically the executive orders, even signing them on stage in front of people, making it like a ceremony. >> he understands where business, entertainment, pop culture, politics, news comes together. >> we look on stage and we say, bezos and all those people go, oh, this is the, you know, tech industrial complex. >> america sees that and goes, oh, these are our superheroes. >> there's a there's a disconnect. >> joe, you were talking about this with what america or one side of america is seeing what another side of america is seeing. he gives an executive order about calling the border crisis an emergency. >> and the democrats go, well, but, you know, the crossings are

an all time low. >> it doesn't matter. it's what america wants to hear. what marketing is, is understanding what your audience wants and give it to them. >> that's what the democrats have got to start. >> so america wants to hear also that the drill baby drill part, the wall street journal said, wait, not only do we not have an energy crisis right now, we're we're drilling more oil than ever before. >> so i want to following up what you said though, george will yesterday. this is brilliant. i want to read what george will said and then i'll comment on and this this is something that i think democrats, the media, all of us over the past decade have missed. yes. i mean, we've all said parts of this, george will put it all together in what we were seeing yesterday, where we looked at things and go, oh, presidents don't do that. oh,

you know, ronald reagan would never have done that. barack obama would have never done that. that's what george will said. and he was actually he was quoting a stanford, hoover, hoover institution. discussion where somebody said objected to this statement, this is not who we are. kotkin asked, who's the we? trump, he said, is not an alien who landed from another planet. this is someone the american people voted for, who reflects something deep and abiding about american culture. think of all the worlds he has inhabited, and that lifted him up. pro wrestling, reality tv, casinos and gambling, which are no longer just in las vegas or atlantic city, but everywhere embedded in daily life,

celebrity, culture, social media. all of that looks to me like america. and yes, so does fraud and brazen lying. and the p.t. barnum carnival barker stuff. but there is an audience and not a small one for where trump came in from and who he is. and we saw i was talking to somebody who actually. has been very involved in the past and, and pro wrestling as far as owning pro wrestling divisions. and he said he said he called me and he said, this is he quoted the george will thing. he goes, are you watching the capital one event? this is pro wrestling. i had to explain to my investors, they don't wrestle, they go out and they talk and they flex their muscles and they do all of these performative things. and the crowds scream, and then they wrestle for five minutes, and

then they end it the same way. and this george will column gets to a point. the democrats need to understand that for half of america, this embodies popular culture, and he embodies what they want out of a president far different than what the other half of america has ever wanted from a president. >> democrats, instead of at this point, if the democrats point man, instead of saying what donald trump is doing wrong and all the things wrong, start to look at what he's doing right from a winning point of view, from a winning point of view. >> once again, he is giving the people what they want. >> we can wring our hands. >> we can. he's putting on a show. >> half of them. yeah, half. at least a little over half, or at least certainly half. >> he's putting on a show and he's very good at it. and you know what's interesting? >> the democrats talked about the joy of, you know, running with it. >> they're they're they're walking around. their chests are out there. they're they're

they're feeling like winners. and the democrats feel like whiners and nerds. and that's got to change. that's got to go upside down. >> well, and i couldn't help but look at ali. i couldn't help but look at last night's event at the capital one center and not say that that was not only focused on his supporters across america, but he also wanted republicans on capitol hill to see this quasi. royal entrance, complete with with trumpets, long trumpets blaring and the family coming in like royalty. and there was a purpose for it. and the purpose was to show his strength that i alone can fix it. i am your retribution. sort of a louis the 14th. i am the

state. and to show republicans on capitol hill just how popular he is with their base, as if they needed that reminder. >> but certainly he'll take the opportunity. i mean, this is the way that he's going to be able to continue to leverage control over any lawmaker that might think about stepping out of line, whether it comes later down the road on reconciliation and pushing packages on taxes or immigration. but it also comes in the immediate term as we watch these confirmation battles for cabinet nominees continue to tick down these reminders of and i think coronation is the right word, these reminders of whatever mandate trump and republicans want to talk about, they all serve to underscore the stronghold that he has on washington, dc, on the levers of power, on the way that government functions. and i do think it's really incumbent upon us, as the media watchers and the reporters, to take him literally listen to the fact that on day one, a lot of the

promises, if not many of the promises that he made on the campaign trail were immediately translated into executive actions. however sloppy and however held up in court they will be, and that some of them are clean cut and dry. pardoning the january 6th insurrectionists is chief on that list. the fact that that can just be done with the stroke of a pen, i think it all served to underscore for republicans on the hill, for democrats on the hill, for everyone in washington and beyond. support him or not. but this is how it is now. >> and democrats quietly reminding each other that this was a 1.5% election. yes. and that republicans have a one vote majority in the house and a three vote majority in the senate. >> right? yeah. but i just want to add one thing to that. we can say that to ourselves. >> he has co-opted america's heartbeat. >> it's just, you know, if america's heartbeat. >> i'm not saying you might not like that. hostage families

standing behind him and fema america's heartbeat is i'm going to give you. listen to me, listen to me, listen to me talking about j6. i'm talking j6. people will absorb it because he gives them what they want in other places. this is just i want the democrats to learn that you can even get away with things as ridiculous as that. if you're feeding people what they want to hear and what they need. >> yeah, well, he actually told them. told them again. he told them what he was going to do. he did. and he's providing the bread and the circuses as well as saying roman days. that entertains them. but underneath that are are things that he's doing breaking one norm after another. >> you can't ignore. >> nobody's saying ignore it after i'm saying the opposite, actually, after promising that he was going to break every norm from the very beginning, the host of way too early, ali vitali, thank you very much. >> and still ahead, jay, stay

with us. still ahead on morning joe, our next guest says yesterday's transfer of power from joe biden to donald trump felt hollow. richard haass joins us to explain that. plus, watch what trump does. don't get distracted by what he says. we'll read from that new piece in the washington post. morning in the washington post. morning joe is back in businesses start small, but a lot of them take off. as your business grows, shipstation grows with you. so you can sync and manage all your orders... no matter how big you get. ♪♪ shipstation's custom automations maximize your team's time. plus, you get more carrier options, at the lowest possible rates. ♪♪ keep your business growing. head to shipstation.com to start your free trial today. ♪♪ (sigh) (snoring)

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headlines this morning. >> at 36 past the hour. severe weather has brought dangerous conditions from texas to the carolinas, as a major winter storm barrels through. forecasters say the snowfall could be historic. flights have been canceled, and widespread school and business closures are expected. the taliban has freed two americans held in afghanistan. they were exchanged for a taliban member imprisoned in the u.s. on drug charges. the prisoner swap was one of the final acts of the biden administration. two other american captives remain in afghanistan and hamas, effectively back in control in gaza after the cease fire deal with israel. thousands of militants streamed into the streets to reestablish control over the battered strip. according to the wall street journal, the open show of force, after months of being pushed underground, was a signal that aid groups and governments will need to cooperate with hamas as reconstruction efforts get

underway in the coming weeks, an outcome israel has hoped to prevent. >> let's now bring in the president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. he's the author of the weekly newsletter home and away, available on substack. richard, feel free to join in the discussion about yesterday and the events. there is so much to talk about, but let's let's start with that. it was deeply unsettling, deeply unsettling yesterday to see these hamas militants, the people who had started this, this, this horror show on october the 7th. but to see after everything, after all the fighting them, streaming back into power, it was dispiriting for two reasons. one is when you get at the israeli war goal was an unachievable one, and what the last two days have shown was just that. quote unquote, eliminating hamas. you can't eliminate hamas, even though they've been seriously degraded. they're the only armed

force other than the israelis in gaza and the israelis. now, what you saw, joe. you saw the price of the israelis not putting forward a political alternative. you can't beat hamas simply with military force. you need to show palestinians. by the way, you warned about that the first day, the first day you warned about that, david ignatius came came on this show the first day and say, israel, we understand what you're going to do. tell us what happens the day after the fighting ends. and nobody in israel was interested in that. we're no closer to that than we were 14, 15 months ago. the other thing that was really depressing and distressing was the behavior of the crowd. here were these three israeli women being released after 15 months in captivity, and the crowd was just out of control. and you think about if you're the average israeli, i don't care if you're on the far left. and you saw that the reaction had to be, how in god's name can we ever make peace? can we ever trust

this, these people living next door to us? i thought that was just a massive, massive setback. it was really it was a depressing bookend to what happened on october the 7th, where you had people slaughtering israelis and calling their parents caught on tape bragging, and their parents being being so proud of them for torturing and killing jews and women being raped and butchered in the streets and dragged around the streets, and palestinians cheering. and there have been a lot of apologists that have been trying to say, oh, no, no, that didn't happen. no, no, it did happen. and it again, as richard said, that's the thing that was so, so dispiriting was these three young women who had been through hell and back. they're they're there. and the crowds surrounding them, just an absolute mob scene, very, very

ugly scene as they got home safely, thank god, eventually. >> but richard, i think this is the question in the middle of this cease fire, if this is the moment when perhaps hamas had been degraded, humbled in some way because their territory had been completely destroyed effectively by the israeli military, it appears in some ways the opposite has happened, which is to say they're telling their people, look what the israelis did to our homeland. how can we ever make peace with them? >> in both narratives are coexisting. it's one of the reasons that you wouldn't want to bet your life savings on things moving forward. you've got to change the narratives on both sides. the question is who goes first? neither side seems particularly willing to go first. it's the reason that, look, the middle east is the way it is. and yes, you know, we can sit around this table and other tables and lay out what needs to happen. but at the moment i just i don't see either side, either palestinians or israelis making it happen. well, tell me, when are the hostages coming out? we got three hostages out. i thought there were some grand

peace deal and the hostages were going to come out by the time donald trump was sworn in, and there was hell going to be paid. we have three hostages out. when do the other hostages come out? what this all showed, joe, is that we'll probably get through phase one of this deal with 33 israeli hostages getting out over 1500 palestinian prisoners getting out. when do those hostages get out? over the next 40, 40 days, there will be 42 days. the problem is phase two, where the rest of the hostages come out. that requires the israelis to do two things to completely withdraw from gaza and to agree to a permanent end to the war. given what the kinds of scenes we saw the other day, i find it really hard to imagine that we get through phase. no, it's not it's not going to happen. and donald trump has said there's going to be hell to pay if he's president. the hostages are still there. there are two little babies. there are two little babies that are still being held in captivity. and what's going to happen not only to those little babies, but to the americans that are still

there. what's going to happen to the elderly that are still there, that are still captives and hamas running around in control? again, i will say benjamin netanyahu, who has been fighting the peace treaty and who had to stand up to the far right extremists in his own government to get this cease fire deal done because donald trump wanted it done. i'm wondering, i'm wondering how much more tenuous his hold on power is this morning after that display in gaza. it is more tenuous. and donald trump's going to have a big decision, probably within, what, a month and a half he in order to get to phase two and in order to get the saudi israeli normalization to happen, which donald trump wants to flesh out the abraham accords, he's going to have to get this israeli government to change the narrative. first, they're going to have to step up and basically start talking about a day after plan in order to get an arab stabilization force in gaza. they're going to

have to lay out some type of a roadmap or vision to the to the palestinians. that is going to be an interesting afternoon. well, that's going to have to replace hamas. yes, sir, because that's what we heard all along. hamas will never run gaza again. we've said it on this show. everybody said it. hamas cannot run gaza again. and yet hamas is running gaza again. and i want to know, like, what's the plan and when is there going to be hell to pay for? as donald trump said, if they're still hostage, there are little babies that are still held hostage. they released three and thank god, thank god above for the three women that were released. but they're little babies that are still there. every, every american administration in recent decades has come in wanting to pull back from the middle east, focus on russia, focus on china, quite possibly. marco rubio in the second month in the job is going to have to deal with this and basically go

into the oval office and say, mr. president, if we want phase two to happen, we have to lean on the israelis to change the conversation. it's very early on. what does that mean? that means introducing some sort of a change in israeli policy, in terms of holding out some political future for the palestinians, enough to get an arab force to come into gaza. otherwise you're gonna have two forces in gaza, joe. you're going to have hamas, and you're going to have the israeli defense forces. if you want to create a changed reality with a third force, you're basically saying, we're going to have to have a two. you're going to have to have a two state solution if you want to get the saudis, the emiratis and other arab nations in there at least have to put it on the table. you're going to have to make it conditional. the palestinians are going to have to meet all sorts of checkpoints along the way. but yes, you're going to have to lay out some kind of at least an interim vision and as a, as a way station to get to that point. this israeli government is not constituted to do that. so there's going to be a day of reckoning sooner than the new

administration is prepared for. >> all right. >> yesterday, trump ordered the department of homeland security to end the humanitarian parole program for migrants fleeing several countries. after the break, we'll talk to former break, we'll talk to former homeland security secretary ♪♪ your pain shouldn't be minimized or forgotten. ♪♪ when medicine gets better, all of us can get better. dexcom g7 sends your glucose numbers to your phone and watch, so you can always see where you're heading without fingersticks. dexcom g7 is the most accurate cgm, so you can manage your diabetes with confidence. ♪♪ 10% loyalty program discount. >> that's $225 for the night. >> not bad.

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z's bakery is looking to add a pizza oven, arissa's hair salon wants to expand their space, and steve's t-shirt shop wants to bring on more help. with the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee, they can think more about possibilities for their business and not the cost of their internet. it's five years of gig-speeds and advanced security. all from the company with 99.9% network reliability. get the 5-year price lock guarantee, now back for a limited time. powering five years of savings. powering possibilities™. >> sometimes? great talent is right under your nose. >> okay. welcome back. live. look at the capitol at ten minutes before the top of the hour, one of the executive orders signed by trump ended a

biden era immigration program that temporarily allowed more than half a million migrants into the u.s. from four troubled nations. yesterday, the trump ordered the department of homeland security to end the humanitarian parole program for migrants fleeing cuba, haiti, nicaragua and venezuela. the program, introduced in 2023, allowed migrants from those four countries to fly into the u.s. if they had a financial sponsor and passed security checks. under the program, those migrants could stay in the u.s. for up to two years unless they found other ways to stay long term. it's unclear what will happen to the hundreds of thousands of migrants currently living in the u.s. who entered the country through the program. >> well, again, more of what donald trump promised. so no one should be shocked by this. what's interesting about these countries, though? these are

countries, i would guess the new secretary of state would welcome refugees from, from these communist countries, from, from from cuba, from. venezuela, from with just the absolute, an absolute thug for a dictator there from from nicaragua. i mean, so i guess, again, none of us are surprised that he's doing what he said he was going to do. these countries, though, very interesting, because these are the refugees that republicans usually embrace from communist countries, the types of refugees that ronald reagan embraced. right. so the suspension of the program, there'll be a lawsuit over that. >> there'll be a lawsuit over birthright citizenship. >> there'll be a lawsuit over suspending asylum. >> you know, if it's not broke, don't fix it. for three years, we had astronomically high numbers of illegal border crossings on the southern border. the biden administration

finally came to. there's a right way and a wrong way to cross the border, and encouraged people to use the app to apply the right way. the numbers of crossings went down dramatically, and so what they were doing in the last year, in the last six months was actually was actually working. it's not necessarily a long term fix because of the underlying push factors. one of the one of the many executive orders that i think is going to backfire is this remain in mexico executive order. >> why is that? >> to tell. to tell it takes two to do that dance. >> right. >> you can't just simply unilaterally decide that a guatemalan has to stay in mexico. mexico has to agree to the program. right. and i suspect what this administration does not appreciate is a large reason why the numbers have gone down so significantly is because the mexican government is doing more on their southern border with central america to turn these people around. if you all

of a sudden unilaterally say to mexico, you're keeping these people, it makes it less likely that they're going to cooperate with us, and the numbers are going to go up. >> and on the subject of refugees, we should note reuters reporting that nearly over 16, over 1660 afghans cleared by the us government to resettle in the us, including family of active duty personnel, active duty us military personnel, had their flights canceled under president trump's order suspending us refugee programs. so their richard, their fate is in limbo as well. people who have taken real chances for the us government weigh in on that. and also, your thoughts on trump's inauguration speech yesterday and its, frankly, lack of foreign policy discussion, except for bringing back manifest destiny. >> look, the afghan decision is just in the gulf. it's immoral. these are people who are totally at risk because they they work closely with the americans. when we were there for 20 years and to suddenly leave them in limbo, it's not even limbo. they're just physically going to be and

politically going to be vulnerable. which is, by the way, exactly what donald trump's supporters said about what joe biden did after exiting afghanistan. you know, just one thing what jay was talking about. excuse me, mr. secretary, i was talking about was, you know, here we are. we're threatening tariffs against mexico. we are calling the gulf of mexico and now the gulf of america. at the same time, we want mexico to cooperate with us on immigration and have asylum applicants be able to stay in mexico. it's almost as if the speech was written by committee and people didn't look at different parts, speech as a whole. let me just say, you know, in addition to what george will was writing about correctly, just the lack of grace notes, this wouldn't have taken so much to have one nod towards joe biden and say thank you for what you all your efforts to bring the hostages back out of out of the middle east. just one nod, one effort to bring the country together. this was a speech to the base. nothing about reconciliation or bringing the country together on

foreign policy. you know, no mention of our enemies, no mention of our allies. what there was was mention of william mckinley. manifest destiny. you know, it's easy to make jokes about mexico and greenland and the panama canal. by the way, there was a threat. we will take back the panama canal. right, miss? misstatement of reality. the chinese aren't running it. the united states isn't being discriminated against. what really worries me about this is there's if you add it all up, there's a pattern here. it looks as though we're saying we've got a special role in the americas. might makes right. we're going to control the americas. you know who is really happy to hear this speech? vladimir putin and xi jinping. why? it sets up a world where the big boys run their neighborhoods. that means they've got their sphere of influence in europe, i.e. ukraine. xi jinping is hearing this going, oh, good. this means i've got taiwan. what was very worrisome about this? trump seems to be wanting to throw out the order that we've had. that's worked pretty well for 80 years and basically substituted a different order. so i actually

take all these talks about the canal and mexico and greenland and the rest. i take it seriously because there's something afoot here. again, though, this is something that he's talked about for decades. why is the united states spending all this money overseas? we should spend this money at home. why are we defending, you know, europe or japan? why aren't they footing their bill? and again. for many of us, that makes absolutely no sense because america has thrived in a way that no other country in history has thrived under this, this approach where we actually are allies with europe and japan. and between us, we have over 60, 65%, maybe

70% of the world's wealth. it's worked pretty well. but you are right. it's almost like going back to the monroe doctrine, where we'll take care of our neighbors and putin. you take care of your neighbor, and she you take care of your neighbor. but i just don't know. i don't know that republicans follow that. mr. secretary, in the senate, we were talking earlier about two americas. >> i there's a there's a disconnect between what donald trump declares and says and basic reality. i remember eight years ago when i was watching his inaugural address, sitting there as designated survivor and my undisclosed location, and he started talking about american carnage, i think, what is he talking about? i had the same reaction george w bush did. and this is some weird stuff. yeah. and yesterday he just simply declared, this is the golden age. this is the golden age of america right now. well, is it the golden age of america to deny asylum to a lot of desperate women and children trying to get out of venezuela

and cuba? is it the golden age to rewrite the constitution, to deny birthright citizenship? i don't think so. that's not what this country is. >> well, the only thing i will say and write it down right now, americans wanted out of afghanistan until we get out of afghanistan. and the taliban had the country in about 24 hours. americans wanted out of iraq, including myself. after ten years, a seven years, we get out of iraq and we created a void that isis filled for several horrifying years. and everybody is saying they want to come home. but those people, maybe they don't remember what happened on nine over 11. but i will say that's going to last up until the moment where there is a catastrophic event, because we

are isolationists again. and when that happens, americans will throw their arms up in the air and say, how could our leaders in washington have let us down again? it's just it's again, this is this is not sustainable hundred percent. what seems to be missing is just very quickly two points. one is that all we're spending on the world is less as a percentage of our economy is less than half our cold war average. right? less than half. last i checked, we did pretty well during the 50s and 60s. so the idea that our problems at home are because of what we're doing abroad is simply not true. last, donald trump seems to be missing the point that we do things in the world. when we help our allies, we're helping ourselves. the idea that foreign policy is only about costs and not benefits seems to be missing. and you're right. the day will come when people will understand the costs of not helping. >> richard haass, thank you very much, i hope. >> i hope it doesn't, but history shows us we cannot hide from history. >> former secretary of homeland

security jeh johnson, thank you as well. we appreciate it. still ahead, nbc's ryan riley, who covers the justice department and federal law enforcement for nbc news, has for years reported on the trials and convictions of criminal defendants charged in the january 6th attack. he'll join us to put donald trump's pardon of nearly all of them into perspective. also ahead, we'll speak with democratic congressman jim clyburn about how the democrats in congress respond to these first moves by the new president. we're back in two minutes. >> gary used car shopping can't hurt you. but what if i overpaid? come out and i'll show you a better way. well, you say, i know, i said nearly half of all used cars have been in an accident, but there's no reason to shop with fear. well, show me carfax. knowing how a car's accident history impacts price means, you don't have to overpay. i wasn't scared. >> sure. can we talk about the

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he's right behind you. >> luckily, i don't think he can hear you. >> america is rolling the dice with the second trump presidency. it's like we somehow survived the first squid game and then signed back up for a second. >> like the one kind of a lot of people were talking about melania's outfit. >> can we see another photo? people weren't sure if she was there for the inauguration or to kill indiana jones. >> the award for best dressed at today's inauguration. >> let's go back to that. went to senator john fetterman, who it looked like his mom interrupted his fortnite game and forced him to come downstairs. you know, john, even adam sandler wears a suit to the golden globes shorts. >> it's not even an inaugural decorum thing. >> it's freezing out there. >> yeah, yeah. welcome back to morning joe. it is tuesday,

january 21st. donny deutsch is still with us. and joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle, pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of the washington post, eugene robinson and nbc news senior business analyst and host of the 11th hour, stephanie ruhle. she has a piece online now from msnbc entitled trump's transactional second term will be built around delivering for big business. >> i want to look very briefly at just just a part of this that jon stewart touched on as far as joe biden being there, and it talks about it, says trump's inaugural of optimism. this, i think, was written well before he pardoned the january 6th convicts who violently savaged police officers. and if you talk to the family you'd say was responsible for the death of

four law enforcement officers, but but but i just i just want to touch on the part of joe biden being there and bill clinton and hillary clinton and george w bush, people that donald trump has attacked savagely and, and, and so many people saying, why are they there? that why would they be there? this is terrible. they shouldn't be there. this being donald trump, there was an inevitable list of grievances about the administration. he is succeeding. if anyone expected a grace note toward president biden or kamala harris, there wasn't one. and give them credit for showing up after a defeat. unlike mr. trump four years ago. and the wall street journal goes on. and they're very they're they're positive about president trump's inaugural speech. >> i just i just i just want to say, mike, and i just want to say this because i don't think many people would do what joe biden and jill biden and hillary and bill clinton and george w

bush and laura bush would have done, but they've never sat in that position and understood that the most important part of transitions is the peaceful part. >> and while we are deeply concerned about so much that happened yesterday, i want to say that peaceful transitions. what what makes it so special in america is not that it's easy, but that it's hard. and when we didn't have it four years ago. and when donald trump didn't show up four years ago, and when the rioters did show up four years ago, that is not a reason

to skip it. four years later, that is all the more reason to bite your tongue, sit down and show americans what has happened. over 240 years, and pray to god that in the coming years, there will be a return to that normalcy. >> you know, i would also submit, joe, that the fact that president biden and his wife, hillary clinton and former president clinton, former president bush and his wife laura, and former president barack obama and president obama all sat in the same row alongside each other and witnessed what everyone witnessed yesterday was perhaps the one true ring of democracy that we saw yesterday one true ring of civility. >> the other thing that was shocking to me maybe i'm the only one was the absolute lack

of grace and graciousness in president trump's speech, especially when he announced to the crowd about the hostages, three hostages being released. the crowd erupts in applause. >> he never even looks at president biden, who invited invited trump's representatives to join in the talks to free the hostages. never, never once looked at him when he uttered that never once thanked him for his cooperation, or thanked him for allowing the two sides, the trump people and the biden people to pursue the release of the hostages. >> not once. that was the most shocking part. >> i'm just going to i'm just going to i'm this is where the conversation goes down the drain. i realize this they would say that the same lack of grace was given to them. that's what they would say. and that is they would say, well, that look what they did to us. it's far worse. >> is that the trump team? well, that is what they think.

>> that is what they this conversation, they, they you talk to anybody around donald trump staff and they will say, joe biden tried to put me in jail. >> he made me spend x amount of dollars. and when mika says that's where the conversation i've heard, it goes down the drain. that's where the conversation goes down the drain. because you've talked to people close to the president, we have talked to the president and people close to the president, and they're not playing for the crowds when they say these people targeted us and wanted us to be in jail for the rest of our lives, so they wouldn't have to run against us again, we're just explaining that's their thought process. if you want to know their thought process, fine. and if you don't, this is it. that's great. you don't need to know it. but that's where they're that's

where they're coming from for sure. but we were shocked and but go ahead but then give them no more ammunition. >> give them no more ammunition. do they think this show up just like all the former presidents did? and they they they they were there. they witnessed everything donald trump said, right? the washington post once said, you know, democracy dies in darkness. don't let donald trump only be in his lane for his people to see him know all of those former presidents were sitting there. they were there because all of them understand what it's like to put country first. and each one of them put their pride, put their ego aside. what do you think it was like for jill and joe biden to stand there and receive donald trump yesterday? what do you think it was like for kamala harris? do you think she wanted to do that? absolutely not. it was an exercise in important democratic exercise in putting country first. and they all did it well. >> and willie, you know, there was a moment when nancy pelosi had said that she prayed for donald trump a couple of years ago, and donald trump said,

that's absolutely ridiculous. well, and one of the key passages in the new testament, jesus says, pray for those who persecute you, love your enemies. and then jesus goes on and says, if you only love those who love you, what good are you? even the sinners do that. and the message throughout the new testament is, do not hold yourself to the standards of others. your job is to rise above that standard. so this this may be, at least in my mind, the civic version of that. do not judge what you should do based on what they did to you four years ago. be above it and show up regardless of how excruciating it had to be personally. >> notably, nancy pelosi was not there yesterday, did not attend

the inauguration. and i love you because you love me seems to be donald trump's guiding principle. as long as you love me, if you're good to me, i got you back and we see that. >> but it wasn't mlk and yesterday was martin luther king junior day, obviously. and think about his words and his teachings. he obviously would show up. he deeply believes that that darkness doesn't beat darkness. >> yeah, i mentioned that. >> obviously, grace and humility are not on the menu for donald trump. we probably weren't going to see that yesterday, but some have hoped and maybe still hoped that now that he's a two term president, he did it. he won the office back. he's in history as a two term president. he's the most powerful political force we've seen in a long time in this country. he might at least settle into a confidence where he didn't have to go back yesterday and talk about the 2020 election, all the ways he's been aggrieved and mistreated, and then he could guide the country in a more unifying way. i know, i know, i know, that might that might be naive. but there was hope that perhaps because now he has climbed all

the way back to the top, that he could be a different kind of president than he was the first time around. >> yeah. >> i want to talk about civility, because i want to try to say this without being too depressing. >> i don't know if we get civility back because of this thing, to be honest with you, because of where we were, the democrats are playing like it's another time, right? >> and they complain. yes. it was very uncivil that he started out trashing his predecessors. you talked about you showed that thing about wrestling before and where we are. this is our culture now. we are a fighting culture and the civility of another time. i don't know if it's coming back. and that's a message to democrats that if you want to play, play to win, because that's what the other side does. so it's a depressing thought. but i don't know if we go back to this more civil, but there's such a disconnect and maybe i'm not crazy here. >> and yes, that's neither here nor there. >> and i was saying to somebody,

the reason why i still have hope, steph, is i can't speak for anybody else, but i live in a community where there are a lot of donald trump supporters. and if i go to little league baseball games, even if i coach an entire team whose parents are trump supporters, you know, if i go to a movie in town, if i when we're walking through the airport, wherever i go, occasionally there are exceptions, but they are very, very rare and in person, very, very rarely does anybody come up. and even begin to cross the line of civility. i have found we talk about this. this gives license to be a jerk. i will tell you in person, and maybe i'm naive, but i don't think it's naive. if it's your lived experience over years, i people,

for the most part are kind, even if they disagree with you in person. >> so those kind people have to not be passive right now, right? the social media universe has figured out the one thing that sells better than sex is rage, and the algorithm is set to, to, to, to link in to all of our stephanie, who was there, who was there with him. and that's what's so important, right? you guys talked about it here yesterday. donald trump wasn't just flanked by huge business people who are running the gap or walmart or exxonmobil. the people surrounding donald trump were the people who run information around the world. those biggest ceos. right? not just, oh, they're really wealthy. guess what? every law, every president is surrounded by wealthy people. you got wealthy donors lining the pockets of all sorts of politicians. but it's who was surrounding donald trump, right? elon musk, jeff bezos, sundar pichai. and then just a few seats away. back to donnie's last point. >> dana white. >> dana white. dana white of the

ufc was basically seated, you know, triangular behind president obama and george bush. and so i'm not as defeatist as donnie is to say, like in politics, not in everyday life. >> and i just think that civility in politics, i don't know if that comes back. okay. >> but you can have civility in politics while you're playing sophisticated chess. you don't have to civility in politics while you're playing a dopey pollyanna game. that's the difference. >> okay, here's more from donald trump's inaugural address from inside the capitol rotunda. >> as we gather today, our government confronts a crisis of trust. for many years, a radical and corrupt establishment has extracted power and wealth from our citizens. while the pillars of our society lay broken and seemingly in complete disrepair, we now have a government that cannot manage even a simple crisis at home, while at the same time stumbling into a continuing catalog of catastrophic events abroad. from

this moment on, america's decline is over for american citizens. january 20th, 2025 is liberation day. first, i will declare a national emergency at our southern border. all illegal entry will immediately be halted and we will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. i will also sign an executive order to immediately stop all government censorship and bring back free speech to america. we will restore fair, equal and impartial justice under the constitutional rule of law. we will forge a society that is colorblind and merit based. there are only two genders, male and female. we are going to be

changing the name of the gulf of mexico to the gulf of america. we will pursue our manifest destiny into the stars, launching american astronauts to plant the stars and stripes on the planet mars. >> gene robinson long list of promises in that inaugural address. many of them will be difficult, including instantly bringing the prices down that have plagued this country for too many years now. i'm curious, though we haven't heard from you yet this morning. just your snapshot view of the last 24 hours. what did we see and where are we headed? >> well, number one, we saw donald trump doing a lot of what he said he would do. so no one should be surprised by this flurry of executive orders. he said he was going to going to free the january 6th rioters. they called them hostages. he said he was going to issue these executive orders, you know, ending wokeness or sort of

punishing federal workers, you name it. he said he was going to do all this stuff. he one of his executive orders instructs the pentagon, presumably instructs pete hegseth since he cleared committee yesterday, and it's pretty clear he's going to be confirmed, instructing him to develop a plan to militarize for the pentagon to militarize the southern border. i mean, and he said he was going to do all this stuff. so people people voted for it, and that's what they got. you know, i got i got an email from a friend of mine who lives abroad and, and it kind of likes trump is kinda trump curious. and but he said i was disappointed with the speech. there was no grace or magnanimity and i just i laughed. i mean, you expected grace and magnanimity from donald trump. i didn't and i

don't think anyone should have. and that's not to say that that all his supporters are like him. i have graceful and magnanimous discussions with with trump supporters. but this is donald trump. i mean, and we have for years chronicled his his character flaws, his insecurities, his ego, all that is on florid display already. and the second trump term is just beginning. so this is i mean, this is really a buckle your seatbelts moment, i think, because i think we're just seeing the beginning of what we're going to see for the next four years. >> president trump delivered on one of those promises last night from the oval office, when he issued a blanket pardon to nearly all of the rioters who stormed the capitol on january 6th. the pardon includes hundreds of people sentenced to significant prison time for their convictions on serious

felonies, like assaulting police officers with deadly or dangerous weapons, fire extinguishers, flagpoles. you've seen the video as the wall street journal notes, the breadth of the pardons contradicted the case by case approach. trump and his allies had signaled ahead of his inauguration, and it flew in the face of admonitions from some republican allies, including his own vice president, jd vance, and his choice for attorney general, pam bondi. joining us now, ryan riley, who covers the justice department and federal law enforcement for nbc news. ryan, good morning. you've covered the story so closely. this was the largest fbi investigation in american history. if you can walk us through how the president came to this point, because there was talk as recently as yesterday morning that these january 6th pardons would be for nonviolent offenders who were still in jail, not for the most serious offenders, like those convicted and serving long terms for seditious conspiracy. >> yeah, i think one of the key

figures here is ed martin. i mean, he's someone i wrote about last night. he's a i was on the platform committee for the rnc. he's this longtime conservative activist, and he was on the board of the patriot freedom project. that's an organization that was started by the aunt of the january 6th defendant, actually a january 6th defendant who looked like hitler in some photos that were on his phone, he was sort of famous, went a little bit viral, and he stormed the capitol, that there was that woman who started, cynthia hughes, who started this organization. and then you have this individual, ed martin, who was on the board of that organization. ed martin is now the interim u.s. attorney for the district of columbia, meaning that he's the top federal prosecutor overseeing all of these cases. this is someone who has spread conspiracy theories about january 6th. there was actually a blog post that he made one time and put together some video, and the title of it was mr. coffee set up january 6th. and i know that just sounds like a crazy headline to sort of throw out there. what are you

talking about, ryan? what he was talking about is the gallows that were set up on, on the, on the capitol near the capitol. right. and this was a really they he launched this really intense investigation into who set up those gallows. and then because this person who he called mr. coffee vaguely walked in the direction north just vaguely of the fbi field office, he surmised, and presented in this video that that was an individual who set up the gallows and did the was the fbi behind all of this? so just a bunch of like, internet garbage essentially here compiled together, put forward as some sort of argument which would never even come near, coming up to the standard for a court of law. and meanwhile, what you have in all all of these cases is overwhelming, undeniable evidence that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that these january 6th defendants are guilty of the crimes that they have been convicted of by either a jury of their peers, by a federal judge, or because they stood before a judge, swore in and admitted that they assaulted those officers on camera. there's zero question about any of this, because these cases

have been so thoroughly looked at. and it's just the, you know, stepping back. it's just sort of astonishing to me that, you know, disinformation not only created january 6th itself, but i think created the sort of, i guess, vibes, i guess, right, that we have here that allowed these sort of pardons to go forward because there's so much misinformation, disinformation that is out there about january 6th that it really just sort of overwhelmed the system that there, you know, this wasn't something that democrats were able to really combat this amount of information, misinformation that we were hearing, sort of all of these crazy conspiracy theories about, oh, it was antifa and, oh, it was the fbi, or maybe it was antifa and the fbi together. so, you know, there's just a lot of a lot of garbage that's been out there. and i think that's what's really been able to set the standard for these pardons. >> it's important to underline, as you did, that these were people convicted at trial by jury of their peers who listened to the evidence in the case and made that decision. and then others, hundreds, hundreds more of them pleaded guilty to what

they did on that day and now freed. so how did we get from j.d. vance saying nine days ago on fox news that quote, obviously people who committed violence against police officers should not be released, that a few days later, pam bondi, very likely to become the next attorney general, condemned people at her questioning before congress who committed violence on january 6th. how did we get from that narrative that, of course, the people who committed violence should stay in jail, but not the others to open up the jails? >> i mean, clearly, this was the first defeat of the trump administration's team. normal, right? whatever contingent of team normal is still is still there and decided to join up this time around. i think lost out here because obviously this is going to be if democrats sort of step up to the plate and, you know, go through a lot of these cases and make political hay out of it and sort of, you know, as donny was talking about, fight back and in this information environment that's, you know, then that's something that they can pick from because there's

just so much material that you could go from. right? you could go through these cases right now and say, and not setting aside all of the january 6th stuff. there's a bunch of pedophiles amongst these january 6th defendants, people who've been convicted of statutory rape. you could focus on them. in fact, someone who was just arrested a couple of weeks ago, he was actually serving some time because he looked at kiddy porn and had possession of kiddy porn. so that's something that democrats could theoretically focus on. but there hasn't been sort of a lot of real fight. and i think, you know, with the january 6th committee, when you go back to that, what the january 6th committee decided to do was they decided that americans couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time. they decided that they had to go with this sort of just trump only narrative. and i think the opening that that allowed for was because the january 6th committee didn't call out some of these huge law enforcement failures that we saw before january 6th. they left their backside open. they had an open flank, right. so when you sort of had these conspiracy theories about, oh, what if it was the fbi, those things were allowed to grab hold because they weren't smacked down by the january 6th committee in the first place. so i think that

that's one of the major sort of, you know, failures. when we look back at this era, what exactly happened and allowed for this information environment to be implemented that allowed for these pardons to happen. >> all right. nbc's ryan riley doing great reporting on this story right from the beginning of it. ryan, thanks so much. we appreciate it. donny and stephanie, i'm thinking about a lot of the people we know who voted for donald trump. and they talked about deregulation. we heard the argument, you get everything when you vote for donald trump. so you got deregulation. maybe men who became women are not going to compete in women's sports, which is a huge issue. all the things that concern you. but you also get the jails empty on january 6th. >> that's the interesting thing. you talk to people, not maga people, people who voted for trump, who you go, well, you know how wrong that is to let these people out. yeah. but yeah, yeah. but and we have the democrats have to understand with that. yeah. but means because if you're going to give them the things that they need that they want and their lives are better in the end, that's what so does sydney, could you do me a favor?

>> all of those people that told you that they, your jewish friends that told you they could never vote for kamala harris, right, because of what happened on october 7th? could you ask them? i'm just curious. and just give me a call after you talk to them, ask them how they felt about the hostages being on stage last night. families of that that the families of them, of people who had been raped and killed and savaged and lost on october 7th, the women who had had been ripped off of mopeds and thrown into jail by hamas and just tortured endlessly. i just could you ask your friends, these these friends that just couldn't vote for any democrat because october 7th meant so much to them. what they what they thought about parallels being drawn between a woman. and

captured and tortured by hamas. comparing that, putting that on the same moral plane as somebody that went to washington, d.c. and beat the hell out of police officers and ultimately their families will tell you, led to the death of those four police officers. could you just ask what what they think of that? i really want to know. i'd love to hear i would i would love to hear and it would be another year. but yeah. >> well really to that, to that. >> well they would go well you i don't know if i understand the question. i'm sorry. so you're saying how do they feel about the hostages being on stage or the hostage being on stage next to that other. no, just just just comparing the united states justice department to hamas. >> yeah. comparing trump appointed judges. >> joe. >> hold on. trump appointed

judges to hamas. comparing u.s. jury systems to hamas. comparing people who who beat the hell out of police officers and nearly killed them. on january the 6th, comparing them to young women who went to a peace festival and were savaged by hamas. >> i'm going to give you the same troubling, unsatisfying answer. their answer would be, yeah, but. >> or i didn't see that i wasn't paying attention to that. >> yeah, but yeah, but you can't you can't logic this stuff out. it's just it's just it's just and it's tough to live with. >> but you don't necessarily have to preach and yell and scream and say to people, but this pay attention to that. just sit here and let's watch and see what donald trump does. right. what was the one of the number one reasons people voted for donald trump? they were so upset about the economy. right. what does donald trump want to do. he wants to cut corporate taxes. he wants to impose tariffs, and he

wants to deport a whole lot of low wage workers. what do you think that trifecta is going to do to inflation? it's only going to make it go up. so you can sit here and preach and preach and say, but pay attention to this, or just sit back and let donald trump do what he is going to do and make sure we cover it and talk about it and hold him to account. and then let's see what happens. >> gene robinson, you must have a view on this. >> you must have a view on this. >> yeah. i you know, i think steph is right. i mean, what choice do we have essentially? i mean, because he was elected, right? he he won narrowly the popular vote. he won the electoral vote. he said he was going to do all these things. so he's doing them. they don't make sense. they certainly don't make sense as some sort of economic balm to, to people who are suffering over the price of price of eggs. you know that. so they don't make sense. and we

will point that out. but i think, i think donny is right that the answer from from supporters right now, if they watched yesterday's events is yeah, but and i think yeah, but is going to be the answer for some time and then we'll see, you know more trump actions and their repercussions. and then we'll see if the answer maybe changes at some point. but but you know let's not assume right that that it that it will or that it will anytime soon. >> and let's underline what gene said. he promised to do this. he's doing it. he campaigned on it, campaigned on it endlessly, and people voted for it. >> hair on fire didn't work. >> so let's cover it. >> so cover. >> so we cover it. >> exactly. >> the new column is online now for the washington post, and stephanie ruhle will be reading your new piece for msnbc.com and watching the 11th hour weeknights at 11 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. thank you.

and coming up, we'll have more of the important moments from president trump's inauguration and the key executive orders he signed yesterday. but first, pablo torre is back with he'll help us recap the first national championship of college football's 12 team playoff. football's 12 team playoff. that's straight ahead on morning businesses need shipping software that keeps up with their growth. with shipstation you can automatically sync inventory and manage returns across all your sales channels. ♪♪ so you fulfill your orders accurately. and ship the right products to the right customers. shipstation makes it easy to manage everything on one platform, with the lowest carrier rates... no matter how big you get. keep your business growing. go to shipstation.com to start your free trial today. let's get started. bill, where's your mask? go to shipstation.com i really tried sleeping with it, everybody. but i'm done struggling. now i sleep with inspire. inspire?

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howard delivers down field and smith he's got it jeremiah smith hasn't had a touch in the second half until that potential game clincher. >> that indeed was the game clincher for ohio state. a huge throw on third and 11 with 2.5 minutes left. college football playoff championship game last night. ohio state beats notre dame. they aired it out there late in the fourth, a 56 yard gain, setting up a field goal that made it a two possession game with less than 30s left. and i might note a nice cover for the buckeyes. ohio state, which led by as many as 21 points in the third quarter, fending off a furious second half comeback by notre dame. it just wasn't enough. 3423 is the final ohio state's sixth national title, first in a decade, denying notre dame its first national title since 1988. >> i went to i went to sleep, but you say it was like 31 to 7.

>> it was 31 to 7 running away with the game dominant. and then notre dame, to their credit, came back. they scored two point conversions, scored again, two point conversion. it was a one score game. it was 3123 when ohio state hit that huge third and 11 play and put the game away. notre dame would have gotten the ball back there and had a chance to go tie the game. wow. joining us now, the host of pablo torre finds out on meadowlark media msnbc contributor pablo torre. pablo, great to see you as always. let's not forget this was a team after the michigan loss two months ago, not even two months ago, whenever that was. and a coach who whose fans wanted his head, they wanted him fired that day. now he wins the national championship. >> i'd like to just put gene robinson in a picture in picture box, because the michigan thing here is real. >> the reason why ryan day was so ecstatic on the on the sideline was because everybody had fired him. he was gone because he couldn't beat michigan, of course. >> and michigan had just won the national title last year. >> and so in this game. >> of course, they're a big

favorite. >> but to save his job, you could argue he needed to win the national title. >> and he did. and so the entire story is different. and joe, the story, the bigger story here about the culture of college football. >> i mean, again, this is the school of woody hayes, woody hayes, mr. >> three yards and a cloud of dust. >> right. >> this is now the program of jeremiah smith. >> in that clip we played before the 56 yard bomb. yeah. >> this is the best roster that money can buy in the nil era. >> $20 million. >> wait wait wait. which, by the way, why don't we just say it? i mean, they are the dodgers, at least in this first year. they are the los angeles dodgers of the nil era. it's a bit depressing that money talks this directly. this immediately. yeah, but that said, the thing that we always took great pride in, in the sec was we would look like this right here, ohio state. and then we would look at big ten teams and they would just lumber around and we'd just

laugh and go, oh my god, their high school teams. that all changed this year and it changed because of nil. and i got to tell you, every friend that i have that grew up on sec football, none of us saw this coming, but it is here. >> oh, yeah. >> you should be afraid. >> i mean, the big ten and the sec are clearly the two superpowers. >> i'm not afraid. i know alabama is going to lose for the next decade until we get another coach, but go ahead. >> but the thing of what all these programs have to do is compete under the new regime of rules set out for them. so notre dame, by the way, they have about ten transfers on this team. that's not a thing notre dame had ever encouraged before because of course notre dame. >> and it is true about notre dame. >> they value academics. but now you have to make the compromises around, okay, how do we compete. dabo swinney at clemson right. >> he's like one of the lone holdouts where he's saying i don't do the transfer portal thing. >> yeah, he's going to have to do the transfer. >> got to do it. >> everybody's going to have to do it.

>> and you remember jonathan lemire, lou holtz leaving notre dame, in part, the reports were because they wouldn't allow him to go out and get the best players in america because of the high academic standards. and the program declined over the years, even though, you know, they'd always be, you know, unanimous ap you know, number one at the beginning of every season. and then with like 14 losses, that's changed. i mean, this notre dame team that we have to say, other than the big ten, notre dame shocked me this year, too, because they have been lumbering up, also rans for 20 years. >> and for the last several years during the bcs era, the annual tradition was notre dame would go to a bowl they shouldn't and then get blown out. and then this year they proved they belong, right. they pulled off a couple of impressive, impressive wins in the playoffs. and yeah, they were outclassed yesterday. there was there was no ohio state was the best team on the field. notre dame had that great opening drive that took almost the whole first quarter. and then the offense disappeared for two quarters until they did rally to make it respectable at

the end. but they're going to be a team that we'll hear from in years to come. >> pablo, what happens to college coaching as a profession with the with this, it's going to look like the nfl. i mean, think about it, right? >> you have a you have a roster you pay money to, which means you need a general manager to actually manage, quote unquote, the salary cap and figure out, okay, who's leaving, who's incoming, who's getting what. >> and that means if you're the head coach, your job is different, right? the head coach used to be that guy. now the head coach is so much less important when it comes to the retail politics of winning over a living room, because now it's transactional. >> you're paying people and it's just a very different it's going to be like the pros in so many words. >> so let me sound like a completely old man there. there's a parallel and i'll start with my voice sounding that way. there's a parallel, actually, between the record industry of the 1970s and the 80s, and this and the record industry of the 1970s. you would have a&r people. bruce springsteen would come along. his first album wouldn't sell.

that's okay. he's great. let's wait for the second season. second album wouldn't sell. so that's okay. this guy's it's great. third now, fourth born to run. boom. and the rest is history you had and now it's spotify. and people just go out and go in their garage. they record and it's just mush. in college football, great players were created because nick saban and woody hayes and other coaches would say to a really great freshman, you know, you're pretty good, but i don't know if i'm going to start you next year. and that great freshman, that great talent would spend all summer working harder, doing what it took to go from being a great talent to being a great ball player. and they developed. and nick saban you look at the nfl now. nick saban developed all these extraordinary players kirby smart we could go down the list. that's not going to happen now. and nick saban said it

because he said i'm not going to recruit a kid and then have to start negotiating with him at the end of the season, when i would usually be saying, i can't guarantee you whether you're going to start next year or not depends on how hard you work this summer, right? so none of these kids are going to develop into great players. they're just going to say, oh no, no, that doesn't work that way. i'm going to go to miami or i'm going to go to ohio state, and we're going to see the development of players stunted dramatically because of this. >> yeah, there's a reason nick saban was sitting as an analyst last night and coach because he's not playing the game anymore. i mean, he told everyone he knows i'm not doing this. i'm not recruiting my own players at the end of every season and convincing them why they should stay. you don't want to be here. you can walk out the door. it also makes the case of arch manning at texas fascinating because he has sat on the bench. this is peyton and eli's nephew sat on the bench at texas for two years. he could have left after his first year going anywhere he wanted and

been the starter. >> he sat probably dad, right? >> his dad? probably his dad. yep. has sat behind quinn ewers, who's very good now going pro. he'll be the starter next year. he's gotten some experience. he's learned from a good quarterback. he stayed in the system in texas. this is preseason number one. that's right with him as quarterback. so we'll see how that plays out. i think it's worth just wrapping this up. pablo. how did this 12 team playoff go. was it better than what it used to be? is the ncaa happy with it? obviously are financially. but did it play out. >> so you buried the lead there. it made a ton of money for everybody. and everybody more or less watched it. >> and of course the title game, it's been about seven title games in a row now since actually 2018. >> in georgia, bama against georgia right second to 26. tua tagovailoa. that was the last great title game. >> so this is part of another tradition of just like a bit of a deflated conclusion. but in terms of all these teams are in

everybody's arguing. everybody's getting more playoffs. it's an unequivocal victory for the business, which has resulted in all of these incentives changing. >> right. >> just on the point about like the players developing, i think that's a totally fair argument for every coach to have. >> it's worse to be a coach and a manager and developer of talent now than it's ever been at the same time to be a player now, you have this newfound power that you're exercising, so it's chaotic. i don't blame every i don't blame anybody really, for following the incentives, even if it may challenge at some point whether this game is as entertaining as we wanted it to be. >> let me ask you before he goes, belichick staying at north carolina i love this. no matter what happens, the offers from any nfl teams. so is he wait any chance he leaves. >> he keeps posting photos about how he's out on the recruiting trail and stuff. >> and then you look at the contract and after june 1st, okay, the buyout changes dramatically, right? >> so it's $10 million versus $1

million. >> what's happening is that he's not getting players though is he i well he's fallen way behind even the duke. so as he started getting some of the last week he'll be okay. >> he's not going to come out and immediately take players from again these established professionalized front offices. >> however, he's been playing footsie with the nfl this entire time, and he has been dying for the nfl to say, we need you, bill, we're so sorry we ignored you. bill. we need you to run our team. and no one's really saying that. and he's just there hoping with an escape clause in his contract that someone still might. >> so, pablo, now for something completely different. with all the news that was coming in yesterday, late in the day, the news broke that vivek ramaswamy sort of left the trump orbit, parted ways with doge. you went to school with him? i did. thoughts on that? >> i did. one of the most fun stories of this political news cycle, vivek, going back to ohio, where he's from, to make

the through line clear here from ohio to ohio. >> it's funny. right. the thing that made him persona non grata in trump world was what he tweeted over the holidays. he had this massive treatise on the h-1b visa and how we need to get immigrants from india and from china to compete, because american culture is essentially soft. >> we value, quote unquote, the quarterback over the valedictorian. >> we praise the wrong characters on sitcoms. we didn't show enough respect to urkel, literally a thing that he said. and what it revealed was, i think, a deep disdain for the base that donald trump had cultivated. >> and it revealed this fracturing for the first time in public. >> really, the fracturing between the silicon valley, part of this strange coalition and the nativist base. and vivek clearly, clearly is somebody who will give on culture to get what he actually wants, much like all of these silicon valley guys. but this take that he tweeted about was the thing he clearly

felt most sincerely. he resents american culture in this way. he resents the base in this way. and for that crime, he is going to go run for governor in ohio. >> instead, he's been the first part of doge to be fired, this being the commission devoted to firing people. >> well, yeah, there's that. that tweet thread certainly was the beginning of the end. >> and certainly others that i've talked to, like he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way within the trump team. and elon musk had soured with him. well, there's no question if there's one truism right now, at least for the moment, that in trump world, elon musk is going to win that power play. and trump was happy with this. the job opened up in ohio. happy to send vivek. >> all right. the host of pablo torre finds out on meadowlark media. pablo torre, thank you very much. coming up, we're going to take a look at the state of reproductive rights in america ahead of what would have been the 52nd anniversary of roe v wade. our next guest is someone who is directly impacted

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podcasts, exclusive bonus content, and all of your favorite msnbc shows now ad free. subscribe on apple podcasts. >> welcome back. longtime abortion rights activist and former head of planned parenthood cecile richards, died yesterday at the age of 67 following a battle with brain cancer. her passing came just hours before president donald trump was sworn in for a second term in office. at first, for me and many women that i know, the news was a gut punch. my phone started blowing up with broken heart emojis and messages of grief. the news discouraging to the point of despair, really, especially for women. and yet, upon further reflection, i realized quickly that cecile's life should guide us. nothing stopped cecile. no matter the setback, political or personal, after the fall of roe. cecile continued the fight. looking for

new and creating new ways to give women a platform for their voices to be heard here on this show. we shared many nightmare stories of women suffering unnecessarily or coming close to death because of these existing abortion bans. many of those stories came to light because of cecile, even as she was battling an aggressive form of brain cancer. last october, cecile joined me with several of the women brave enough to tell their stories, and at the time, she was facing extreme effects of her cancer. >> these problems are not going away. >> win, lose or draw, and the stories that these women have told, we have dozens, if not hundreds more. >> and these are not political stories. these are stories of women and families and daughters

and granddaughters. the risk and the struggle to get health care in like almost half the states in america. and that's a long term fight. >> cecile struggled with her speech, her difficulty walking, her perseverance through it all. she would lift us up through the next four years and beyond. this is what she told the 19th recently. she said, in all honesty, i fear it will take us a long time to restore the rights we once had. for people who face challenges based on race, geography, income and more. these inequities are deep seated, intersectional and much more difficult to eradicate. we need to be ready for a multiyear fight. and she's right. for many women in this country, life saving health care, abortion is no longer an option, especially

for women in 12 states with complete bans. and for states that have six week bans, it may be that we work on extending the length of the bans as much as possible. it may be that we work for something better than we have now, maybe with people who we don't agree with at all, step by step. cecile's family said in a statement. quote, if you'd like to celebrate cecile, today, we invite you to put on some new orleans jazz. gather with friends and family over a good meal and remember something that she said a lot over the last year. it's not hard to imagine future generations one day asking when there was so much at stake for our country, what did you do? the only acceptable answer is everything we could. so with that in mind, in cecile's memory, let's follow her lead. cecile's passing also came just days before the

anniversary of roe v wade. the decision tomorrow marks 52 years since the supreme court decided that the 14th amendment provided women a constitutional right to an abortion, a right that was guaranteed until 2022. so joining us now, one of the women who was on set during that discussion with cecile on morning joe, reproductive rights activist amanda zurawski. amanda was denied an abortion in texas after her water broke at 18 weeks pregnant, far too early for a baby to survive. three days later, she was diagnosed with sepsis, a life threatening condition. that's when doctors finally stepped in and performed an emergency abortion. amanda and six other women sued the state of texas over its abortion laws, but the state's supreme court rejected their challenge. setback after setback after setback, it seems. amanda, we still move forward and i thank you for coming back on the show.

and i'd like to start by asking you just for your thoughts on on the passing of cecile richards. >> well, first of all, good morning and thank you so much for having me back. you're right. it has felt like setback after setback. but as cecile richards taught us and showed us through her actions, we have to keep going. >> she forged such an incredible, such a guiding light. >> and she has asked us to carry on this fight. and that's what we have to do, and that's what we will do. she was just an incredible example of hard work, fearlessness. >> and, you know, i hope she rests easy. and it's our turn now. >> it is. and we need to step up even more and also work within the reality of where we are. i want to get to that in a moment. but first, your platforms are mirror what cecile was doing even in her final days, which is

sharing the stories of women sharing the facts of what happens when abortion care is not available. tell us about your platforms and some of the stories that you're working to put out there, and how you're doing that. >> yeah, i think you're exactly right. she showed us the power of storytelling, and she created opportunities for us to tell our own stories in so many creative and different ways. >> and one of the ways that we're doing that moving forward is with an organization called free and just, and we're working really hard to shed light on what's happening in this country and make people aware of the real stories and the real people who are harmed. >> and so we're launching this campaign to share the names and the stories of the five women that we know of who have died because they've been denied abortion care. >> and, you know, these are just the five stories that we know of. >> we are certain that there are

more and we just haven't learned of them yet. >> we are certain that there will be more as long as these bans continue to be in place. >> and so we are working really hard to make sure that their names are remembered, their stories are told. >> and this is an issue that we continue to talk about. >> and there are women who have died in situations where abortion bans were in place. and you're looking to make sure those stories are told. you said, you know, there are more out there. so two pronged last question here. how do people find you and make sure their stories are told? and absolutely, i welcome my platform, know your value to help share those stories as well. >> thank you very much. >> certainly social media is a great way to stay in touch. >> i would recommend people watch and follow free and just. they're doing great work with storytelling and just remain vigilant because these stories are going to continue to come out again as long as these bans are in place in this country.

>> so i would just encourage people to stay vigilant, stay educated and stay informed. it's what cecile would do, and i think it's what we need to do as well. >> it is definitely what cecile would do. amanda zurawski, thank you so much. let's not make this our last conversation. i'll see you soon, my friend. thank you very much for coming on this morning. and the third hour of morning joe continues right now. >> so this is january 6th, and these are the hostages, approximately 1500 for a pardon. yes. full pardon. we hope they come out tonight, frankly, we're expecting it approximately 1500 people, six, six commutations. >> are there any cases? you did not meet were part of the people. >> we're looking at different things, but the commutations would be the ones that we'll take a look and maybe it'll stay that way, or it'll go to a full pardon. >> that was president trump last night in the oval office

announcing pardons for people connected with the january 6th capitol attack. that is despite previously saying he would consider pardons and commutations on a case by case basis and hearing condemnations from his vice president, jd vance, and his nominee for attorney general, pam bondi. of those who committed violent acts. also ahead, we're going to sort through the dozens of executive orders the president signed yesterday, focusing on the ones that could have a significant impact versus others that appear to be just for the base. good morning, and welcome to morning joe. it is tuesday, january 21st. along with joe, willie and me, we have the co-host of our fourth hour, jonathan lemire. he's a contributing writer at the atlantic covering the white house and national politics, the host of the podcast on brand with donny deutsch. donny deutsch is here. former secretary of homeland security in the obama administration, jeh

johnson, and the host of way too early. ali vitali stays with us this morning. so donald trump took the oath of office for a second time yesterday, becoming the 47th president of the united states. we heard that trump several times throughout the day. we heard from him beginning with his inaugural address from inside the capitol rotunda, surrounded by family, former presidents, cabinet appointees and tech billionaires. >> the golden age of america begins right now. from this day forward, our country will flourish and be respected again all over the world. we will be the envy of every nation, and we will not allow ourselves to be taken advantage of any longer. during every single day of the trump administration, i will

very simply put america first. my proudest legacy will be that of a peacemaker and unifier. that's what i want to be a peacemaker and a unifier. america will reclaim its rightful place as the greatest, most powerful, most respected nation on earth, inspiring the awe and admiration of the entire world. >> so, jonathan lemire, you've been looking at the two. the two tabloids, and there's your split screen. we've got the grim speaker with the daily news and the golden age of america with new york post. and willie, i think that that about that about sums it up. but yesterday's festivities were for an electorate that were that was pretty much evenly divided. you know, there are a lot of people that listened to what he said

yesterday, voted for him and said, yay, america. we're we're coming back. and then there were others who actually looked at data and looked at facts and realized that our economy is stronger relative to the rest of the world than it's ever been. our military alliances strengthened over the past four years in a way they've never been, and that, in fact, america militarily is stronger relative to the rest of the world than it's been since 1945. and yet that that speech, the events of yesterday. again. two americas saw two completely different things. and it's george will wrote in his column. two americas just did not understand the other side. and there was one other thing that george will added in his washington post column, and he talked about

manners. that sounds very old fashioned, but he said it also two americas with a very different view of how we treat one another. and it just. we're just not used to looking at these events, seeing other presidents and other people who've sacrificed their all for this country just being trashed five feet away. that's happened. that's happened now twice in history. but again, this is what americans voted for. and the divide, again, is illustrated so clearly in these two new york tabloids, two americans who saw yesterday's events through two completely different prisons. >> yeah. if you follow donald

trump, if you watch certain cable networks and read certain newspapers, his inaugural address made complete sense to you. the case is that america is a nation in decline. and he has arrived to save us, to rescue the country. it was the same case he made, remember in 2017, in his inaugural address. and you're right, yesterday when we were on the air, felt relatively conventional donald trump shaking hands, arriving at the white house, having tea with the bidens. all of those things, even walking into the rotunda there right up until the moment he stepped to the stage and began speaking, as you said, with president biden, vice president harris, all the former presidents sitting in that room and just to begin trashing america in a speech that, as i said, will resonate with the people who support him and voted for him, because that's the version of the story they've been hearing for several years now. and then he delivered on what he promised that a lot of people hoped he were just threats, particularly in terms of emptying the jails of violent

offenders around january 6th. almost 1600 of them. and a slew of executive actions. he took that again were things he had said he was going to do. so it shouldn't be totally surprising, but hoped that someone could intervene somewhere along the way. as j.d. vance said a week ago, if you committed a crime, if you committed violence against a police officer, you should not come out of jail. that was the messaging from people even who supported him. pam bondi to pam bondi said the same to her. >> the day was like thom tillis said, the same as well. and there are a lot of other republican senators this morning, right. obviously trying to figure out what they're going to say. >> so let's move through exactly what happened, because it kind of went from, from from the inaugural speech to the crescendo in the evening after delivering his inaugural address, president trump moved to emancipation hall, where he gave another speech to supporters who weren't inside the capitol rotunda. this time, trump aired grievances and attacked his political rivals,

saying these are the remarks he was advised to leave out of his first speech. >> 2020. by the way, that election was totally rigged. but these are the. that's okay. yes, it was a rigged election. you know, the only thing good about it, it showed how bad they are, showed how incompetent. and frankly, historically, this is a much bigger event. if that would have gone like it should have. >> now, the president chose to have his inaugural parade inside the capital one arena because it was cold outside. the raucous crowd first heard from elon musk and kash patel, who touted the imminent return of america's glory days. the president then took to the stage and used the opportunity to sign the first batch of executive orders, among them issues related to climate policy, immigration and rolling back dei initiatives put in place by the biden

administration. but the more consequential executive orders came last night inside the oval office. there, president trump issued roughly 1500 pardons and commuted the sentences of 14 others in connection with the attack on the u.s. capitol on january 6th, 2021. the pardons included hundreds of people sentenced to significant prison time for their convictions of serious felonies, such as assaulting police officers with deadly or dangerous weapons. additionally, trump issued, quote, a full, complete, and unconditional pardon to all other individuals convicted of offenses related to events that occurred at or near the united states capitol. on january 6th, 2021, a category that includes other rioters who assaulted law enforcement officers, those with commuted sentences include individuals associated with the

proud boys and oath keepers who were convicted of seditious conspiracy. some of those pardons included enrique tarrio, the former leader of the proud boys who was serving a 22 year prison term after being convicted at trial of seditious conspiracy, a crime that requires prosecutors to prove that a defendant used violent force against the government. as the wall street journal notes, the breadth of the pardons contradicted the case by case approach. trump and his allies had signaled ahead of his inauguration, and it flew in the face of admonitions from republican allies who'd voiced opposition to the notion of pardoning january 6th, defendants who had assaulted police. those included his own vice president, jd vance, and his choice for attorney general pam bondi. >> if you protested peacefully on january the 6th and you had

merrick garland's department of justice treat you like a gang member, you should be pardoned. if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. >> do you believe that those who have been convicted of the january 6th riot, violent assaults on our police officers should be pardoned? >> that's a simple question. >> so, senator, i have not seen any of those files. >> of course, if confirmed and if asked to advise the president, i will look at each and every file. >> but let me be very clear in speaking to you, i condemn any violence on a law enforcement officer in this country. >> so jonathan lemire, i guess willy said a week ago, j.d. vance said, if you commit violence against a police officer, you should not be be put out of jail. you look at officer fanone beaten into inches of his life. and if you just want a split screen on the pardons, because i know all of

us wish that none of the pardons were necessary yesterday and are concerned about what may come in the future because of those pardons. but you look at the two pardons the outgoing president pardoned a police officer who had the hell beaten out of him within inches of his life, felt the need to do that, and the incoming president pardoned the people who beat the hell out of the police officer. so tell me, how did how did we move from what jd vance was saying a week ago and what donald trump was saying about looking at these from a case by case basis to where we ended up last night with, with action is so sweeping that it seems that republican, even republican senators are surprised. yeah. >> we're seeing right there on the screen is time magazine interview just after his election saying, i'm going to do this case by case. and if they

were nonviolent, i think they've been greatly punished. but suggesting there would be a different category for those convicted of violent offenses. that said, let's remember his very first campaign event in this election in waco, texas, where he the first thing he did was step on stage and appear with the january 6th convict choir. so some of this has been telegraphed all along, but it did accelerate and it grew more expansive. despite what we heard from jd vance just ten days ago, despite what we heard from pam bondi just last week, and trump with he and his closest advisers now that they're in power, decided to go big to have sweeping pardons, including for members of the oath keepers and proud boys, going far beyond what even some of his closest allies wanted or even recommended here. let's recall, of course, that some of these convicts, their sentences were handed down by trump appointed judges. let's remember, of course, this is the largest criminal investigation in the history of the department of justice. one has to wonder what happens now to the career officials in doj and attorneys offices, the u.s. attorney's offices, whether they will stay

in place after this. some of these people, there were parties last night at the d.c. jail. there were hopes that people would get out in time to attend some of the inauguration events last night. this is what trump's base wanted, and this was what he delivered. >> and let's underline that this is what he delivered. well, this is what his base wanted. and in reading the news accounts this morning, you learned that after jd vance said that those rioters who beat the hell out of law enforcement officers after he said they should not get pardoned, it was jd vance who got attacked by the maga base, saying that all needed to be acquitted. and you are right, he donald trump talked about this throughout the entire campaign. and this is this is what america voted for. this is what this is

what democrats warned of. this is what donald trump campaigned on, and this is what americans voted for. and it's what they got. what i'm curious about curious about jeh johnson with obviously your your background and extensive knowledge of law enforcement and the dealing with u.s. attorneys. i'm wondering what what the repercussions of this will be, what the impact will be for each one of those 1600 cases. >> there's a federal prosecutor assigned dedicated to the case who's feeling pretty disenchanted this morning. i would not be surprised if we saw a mass resignation from the department of justice as a result of this. going back to this issue of the executive orders, that's probably yeah, that's what some would argue. >> some would say that's exactly

probably what the trump administration wants and the administration would want. >> yeah. >> well, somebody's got to prosecute violent crime in this country or somebody has got to prosecute organized crime in this country. somebody's got to prosecute terrorism in this country. somebody's got to prosecute, you know, bank fraud in this country. let's not forget that, you know, one of the problems with executive orders and this is a nonpartisan, bipartisan statement, executive orders issued on day one of an administration are drafted by a transition team, are done so without dealing with the bureaucracy that has to then go implement them. the cabinet officers are not even confirmed by the senate yet. and so very often there's an unrealistic aspect to an executive order signed on on on day one. >> and let me just say there was reporting about that last night that and i'm going to i'm going to talk to donny about sort of the showbiz portion of much of the day. we always talk about

trying to separate the ground noise from the signal. most of the day was showbiz, right? >> and he undercut his own attorney general nominee by doing what he did. >> right. and obviously last night was, was the signal the not only the warning, but actually there were a couple the. yeah, there were, there were, there were quite a few. but but that said, a lot of those executive orders, according to reporting from the wall street journal and others, i believe, were hastily written, of course, won't hold up in court and they'll probably have to do it all again. >> they're i call them the executive orders for the full employment of lawyers, judges and courthouses. there will be a lawsuit associated with at least every one of these executive orders. birthright citizenship, i learned. i don't know about you. you and i are lawyers, but i learned sophomore in college that you cannot change a provision of the us constitution by an executive order, and

birthright citizenship has been enshrined in the 14th amendment since 1868 to ensure citizenship for my enslaved ancestors, and it has been understood for over 100 years to mean if you are born or naturalized in this country and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, you're a citizen subject to the jurisdiction thereof, has meant that that an exemption for the children of diplomats. and so that will be challenged in court. but denying asylum will be a challenge, by the way, on that issue and on many of these issues, it ends up at the supreme court. >> and i don't think many court watchers believe that amy coney barrett and john roberts, at the very least, will rewrite what the 14th amendment has meant since right after the civil war. >> i have to believe that there is a majority of this supreme court who will not just overlook the plain meaning and the plain

understanding of a constitutional amendment. >> yeah. so, ali vitali, we saw yesterday, speaker johnson, we saw many members of the republican leadership standing, smiling, clapping along while donald trump gave his addresses. i'm curious specifically about this executive order of opening the jails and releasing all the january 6th convicts, many of them who have committed violence with a fire extinguisher or a flagpole or pepper spray or whatever it is against police officers, many of them serving long prison sentences, now free or about to be free. how will speaker johnson, how will republicans that you cover every day on capitol hill react to this? how will they rationalize this? because they seem to have been able to rationalize everything donald trump does. many democrats coming out last night and saying, this is just an affront to our system of justice, which is these were jury trials. juries of their peers convicted these people based on the evidence. or many of these people pleaded guilty to the charges against them. now free. what will republicans say this morning?

>> it's really the ultimate conclusion to the whitewashing that we've seen republicans all the way from donald trump down to rank and file lawmakers on capitol hill do when it comes to january 6th. i mean, you show those images of what it was like outside the capitol. we know what it was like inside the capitol. and then you issue pardons. you contrast that with the president coming in and issuing pardons callously, as if this is not a building that still bears the scars of the trauma of that day. every single time lawmakers and staffers enter its halls. you know, i had one lawmaker say to me that they were at the capitol yesterday, and they watched as the news of the likely pardons was coming through the building, and they watched as the capitol police officers faces fell. and certainly there is going to be that kind of a reaction within the halls of congress. but it also strikes me that trump was quite easily able to make good on a promise that he repeatedly

made out on the campaign trail. lemire is right to point out the way that this was always central when trump was out campaigning, but also the fact that he stood in the halls of the capitol and reiterated the big lie, the idea that the 2020 election was rigged was stolen. and that's the only reason that you then had people motivated and energized to go to the capitol to try to disrupt the certification of votes that would have certified, and underscored that donald trump lost the election. so i think people are not shocked. they knew this was coming. but i think my conversations with sources is there was a sense of incredulity as i was talking to someone who was a staffer on the january 6th committee. they just said, what a time to be alive. i mean, those are people who, in doing their jobs, received a presidential pardon preemptively for doing nothing wrong. >> coming up, how donald trump got ready for his close up, jonathan lemire takes us through his new reporting in the atlantic. when morning joe comes atlantic. when morning joe comes right this is steve.

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finish, he had the air among republicans of a coronation. they talked about him. this was almost a divine event that his life was spared in butler, pennsylvania, so he could return and lead the country again. the way they talked about him as the greatest president of their lifetime. you know, all the language that was out there, it's hard to see any of them at this point. the way he's consolidated power, crossing him on any of these nominees, it was a marketing tour de force. >> i mean, look like donald trump. i hate donald trump. he's a brilliant marketer. and yesterday, i'm not talking about january 6th. leading up to january 6th was marketing 101. he basically the executive orders, even signing them on stage in front of people, making it like a ceremony. he understands where business, entertainment, pop culture, politics, news comes together. we look on stage and we say bezos and all those people know that this is the, you know, tech industrial complex. america sees

that and goes, oh, these are our superheroes. there's a there's a disconnect. joe, you were talking about this with what america on one side of america is seeing what another side of america is seeing. he gives an executive order about calling the border crisis an emergency. and the democrats go well, but, you know, the crossings are an all time low. it doesn't matter. it's what america wants to hear. what marketing is, is understanding what your audience wants and give it to them. that's what the democrats have got to start to learn. >> america wants to hear also that the drill baby drill part, the wall street journal said, what? >> not only do we not have an energy crisis right now, we're we're drilling more oil than ever before. so i want to following up what you said, though, george will yesterday. this is brilliant. i want to read what george will said and then i'll comment and this this is something that i think democrats, the media, all of us

over the past decade have missed. yes. i mean, we've all said parts of this, george will put it all together. and what we were seeing yesterday when we looked at things and go, oh, presidents don't do that, are you know, ronald reagan would never have done that. barack obama would have never done that. that's what george will said. and he was actually he was quoting a stanford, hoover, hoover institution. discussion where somebody said objected to this statement, this is not who we are. kotkin asked, who is the we? trump, he said, is not an alien who landed from another planet. this is someone the american people voted for, who reflects something deep and abiding about american culture.

think of all the worlds he has inhabited, and that lifted him up. pro wrestling, reality tv, casinos and gambling, which are no longer just in las vegas or atlantic city, but everywhere embedded in daily life, celebrity culture, social media. all of that looks to me like america. and yes, so does fraud and brazen lying. and the p.t. barnum carnival barker stuff. but there is an audience and not a small one for where trump came in from and who he is. and we saw i was talking to somebody who actually. has been very involved in the past and, and pro wrestling as far as owning pro wrestling divisions. and he said he said he called me and he

said, this is he quoted the george will thing. he goes, are you watching the capital one event? this is pro wrestling. i had to explain to my investors, they don't wrestle, they go out and they talk and they flex their muscles and they do all of these performative things. and the crowds scream, and then they wrestle for five minutes, and then they end it the same way. and this george will column gets to a point. the democrats need to understand that for half of america, this embodies popular culture, and he embodies what they want out of a president for a different than what the other half of america has ever wanted from a president. >> democrats, instead of at this point, if the democrats brought me in instead of saying what donald trump is doing wrong and all the things wrong, start to look at what he's doing right from a winning point of view, from a winning point of view. once again, he is giving the people what they want. we can

wring our hands. we can. he's putting on a show half of them, half at least a little over half, or at least certainly half. he's putting on a show and he's very good at it. and you know what's interesting? the democrats talked about the joy of, you know, running with it. they're they're they're walking around. their chests are out there. they're they're they're feeling like winners. and the democrats feel like whiners and nerds. and that's got to change. that's got to go upside down. >> well, and i couldn't help but look at ali. i couldn't help but look at last night's event at the capital one center and not say that that was not only focused on his supporters across america, but he also wanted republicans on capitol hill to see this quasi. royal entrance, complete with with trumpets,

long trumpets blaring and the family coming in like royalty. and there was a purpose for it. and the purpose was to show his strength that i alone can fix it. i am your retribution. sort of a louis the 14th. i am the state. and to show republicans on capitol hill just how popular he is with their base, as if they needed that reminder. >> but certainly he'll take the opportunity. i mean, this is the way that he's going to be able to continue to leverage control over any lawmaker that might think about stepping out of line, whether it comes later down the road on reconciliation and pushing packages on taxes or immigration. but it also comes in the immediate term as we watch these confirmation battles for cabinet nominees continue to tick down these reminders of and i think coronation is the right word, these reminders of whatever mandate trump and

republicans want to talk about, they all serve to underscore the stronghold that he has on washington, dc, on the levers of power, on the way that government functions. and i do think it's really incumbent upon us, as the media watchers and the reporters, to take him literally listen to the fact that on day one, a lot of the promises, if not many of the promises that he made on the campaign trail were immediately translated into executive actions. however sloppy and however held up in court they will be, and that some of them are clean cut and dry. pardoning the january 6th insurrectionists is chief on that list. the fact that that can just be done with the stroke of a pen, i think it all served to underscore for republicans on the hill, for democrats on the hill, for everyone in washington and beyond. support him or not. but this is how it is now. >> coming up, an update on the severe weather, slamming a huge portion of the south right now. a first look at what could be historic snowfall when morning historic snowfall when morning joe comes (auctioneer) let's start the bidding at 5 million dollars.

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saturday and sunday mornings at 8:00 on msnbc. >> severe weather has brought dangerous conditions from texas to the carolinas, as a major winter storm barrels through. forecasters say the snowfall could be historic. flights have been canceled, and widespread school and business closures are expected. the taliban has freed two americans held in afghanistan. they were exchanged for a taliban member imprisoned in the u.s. on drug charges. the prisoner swap was one of the final acts of the biden administration. two other american captives remain in afghanistan and hamas, effectively back in control in gaza after the cease fire deal with israel. thousands of militants streamed into the streets to reestablish control over the battered strip. according to the wall street journal, the open show of force, after months of being pushed underground, was a signal that aid groups and governments will

need to cooperate with hamas as reconstruction efforts get underway in the coming weeks, an outcome israel has hoped to prevent. >> let's now bring in the president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass. he's the author of the weekly newsletter home and away, available on substack. richard, feel free to join in the discussion about yesterday and the events. there is so much to talk about, but let's let's start with that. it was deeply unsettling, deeply unsettling yesterday to see these hamas militants, the people who had started this, this, this horror show on october the 7th. but to see after everything, after all the fighting them, streaming back into power, it was dispiriting for two reasons. one is when you get at the israeli war goal was an unachievable one and with the last two days have shown was just that, quote unquote, eliminating hamas. you

can't eliminate hamas even though they've been seriously degraded. they're the only armed force other than the israelis in gaza and the israelis. now, what you saw, joe. you saw the price of the israelis not putting forward a political alternative. you can't beat hamas simply with military force. you need to show palestinians the way. you warned about that the first day, the first day you warned about that, david ignatius came came on this show the first day and say, israel, we understand what you're going to do. tell us what happens the day after the fighting ends. and nobody in israel was interested in that. we're no closer to that than we were 14, 15 months ago. the other thing that was really depressing and distressing was the behavior of the crowd. here were these three israeli women being released after 15 months in captivity, and the crowd was just out of control. and you think about if you're the average israeli, i don't care if you're on the far left. and you

saw that the reaction had to be, how in god's name can we ever make peace? can we ever trust this, these people living next door to us? i thought that was just a massive, massive setback. it was really it was a depressing bookend to what happened on october the 7th, where you had people slaughtering israelis and calling their parents caught on tape bragging, and their parents being being so proud of them for torturing and killing jews and women being raped and butchered in the streets and dragged around the streets, and palestinians cheering. and there have been a lot of apologists that have been trying to say, oh, no, no, that didn't no, no, it did happen. and it again, as richard said, that's the thing that was so, so dispiriting was these three young women who have been through hell and back. they're they're there. and the

crowds surrounding them, just an absolute mob scene, very, very ugly scene as they got home safely, thank god, eventually. >> but richard, i think this is the question in the middle of this cease fire, if this is the moment when perhaps hamas had been degraded, humbled in some way because their territory had been completely destroyed effectively by the israeli military, it appears in some ways the opposite has happened, which is to say they're telling their people, look what the israelis did to our homeland. how can we ever make peace with them? >> in both narratives are coexisting. it's one of the reasons that you wouldn't want to bet your life savings on things moving forward. you've got to change the narratives on both sides. the question is who goes first? neither side seems particularly willing to go first. it's the reason that, look, the middle east is the way it is. and yes, you know, we can sit around this table and other tables and lay out what needs to happen. but at the moment i just i don't see either side, either palestinians or israelis making it happen. well, tell me, when

are the hostages coming out? we got three hostages out. i thought there were some grand peace deal and the hostages were going to come out by the time donald trump was sworn in, or there was hell going to be paid. we have three hostages out. when do the other hostages come out? what this all showed, joe, is that we'll probably get through phase one of this deal with 33 israeli hostages getting out over 1500 palestinian prisoners getting out. when do those hostages get out? over the next 40. now. 40 days must be 42 days. the problem is phase two, where the rest of the hostages come out. that requires the israelis to do two things to completely withdraw from gaza and to agree to a permanent end to the war. given what the kinds of scenes we saw the other day, i find it really hard to imagine how you get through phase. no, it's not it's not going to happen. and donald trump has said there's going to be hell to pay if he's president. the hostages are still there. there are two little babies. there are two little babies that are still being held in captivity. and

what's going to happen not only to those little babies, but to the americans that are still there. what's going to happen to the elderly that are still there, that are still captives and hamas running around in control? again, i will say benjamin netanyahu, who has been fighting this peace treaty and who had to stand up to the far right extremists in his own government to get this cease fire deal done because donald trump wanted it done. i'm wondering, i'm wondering how much more tenuous his hold on power is this morning. after that display in gaza. >> all right. yesterday, trump ordered the department of homeland security to end the humanitarian parole program for migrants fleeing several countries. after the break, we'll talk to former homeland security secretary jeh johnson about that. we'll be right back. >> i feel like new sunglasses,

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>> one of the executive orders signed by trump ended a biden era immigration program that temporarily allowed more than half a million migrants into the u.s. from four troubled nations. yesterday, the trump ordered the department of homeland security to end the humanitarian parole program for migrants fleeing cuba, haiti, nicaragua and venezuela. the program, introduced in 2023, allowed migrants from those four countries to fly into the u.s. if they had a financial sponsor and passed security checks under the program. those migrants could stay in the u.s. for up to two years unless they found other ways to stay long term. it's unclear what will happen to the hundreds of thousands of migrants currently living in the u.s. who entered the country through the program. >> well, again, more of what donald trump promised, and no one should be shocked by this.

what's interesting about these countries, though, these are countries, i would guess the new secretary of state would welcome refugees from, from these communist countries, from from from cuba, from. venezuela, from with just absolute an absolute thug for a dictator there from, from nicaragua. i mean, so i guess, again, none of us are surprised that he's doing what he said he was going to do. these countries, though, very interesting because these are the refugees that republicans usually embrace from communist countries, the types of refugees that ronald reagan embraced. right. >> so the suspension of the program, there will be a lawsuit over that. there'll be a lawsuit over birthright citizenship. >> there'll be a lawsuit over suspending asylum. >> you know, if it's not broke, don't fix it. for three years, we had astronomically high

numbers of illegal border crossings on the southern border. the biden administration finally came to. there's a right way and a wrong way to cross the border, and encouraged people to use the app to apply the right way. the numbers of crossings went down dramatically. and so what they were doing in the last year, in the last six months was actually was actually working. it's not necessarily a long term fix because of the underlying push factors. one of the one of the many executive orders that i think is going to backfire is this remain in mexico executive order. >> why is that? >> to tell. to tell it takes two to do that dance. right. you can't just simply unilaterally decide that a guatemalan has to stay in mexico. mexico has to agree to the program. right. and i suspect what this administration does not appreciate is a large reason why the numbers have gone down so significantly is because the mexican government is doing more

on their southern border with central america to turn these people around. if you all of a sudden unilaterally say to mexico, you're keeping these people, it makes it less likely that they're going to cooperate with us. and the numbers are going to go up. >> coming up, how business leaders are navigating donald trump's return to office cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us live from the world economic forum in davos. when morning joe comes right back. >> you back to my skating for over 45 years has taken a toll on my body. >> i take qunol turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qunol? it has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric. qunol the brand i trust.

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>> after he was sworn in, trump gave his second inaugural address, which i have to say was more ominous than i anticipated. >> in order to ensure the security and continuing stability, the republic will be reorganized into the first galactic empire. >> so this is how liberty dies with thunderous applause. >> that's right. >> emperor palpatine hands this back to the fourth hour of morning joe. >> it's 6 a.m. on the west coast, 9 a.m. in the east, along with joe, jonathan lemire and me, nbc news national affairs analyst and a partner and chief political columnist at puck. john heilemann joins us, co-host of the weekend on msnbc. symone sanders townsend is here and nbc

news senior executive editor for national security, david rohde joins us. >> john heilemann, yesterday we i did your podcast, but we 3:00 in the afternoon. that was that was bad. >> i thought it was about three in the morning. >> and joe was like, and joe and joe in the afternoon. but we were talking about, you know, separate the signal from the noise. and a lot of this is just all showbiz. and then the pardons last night where we're going to have to do a follow up on that, as well as my controversial dylan statement. yeah, that was a whole other neutron bomb in the conversation. i got to say, like, we had a lot of a lot of noise by 3:00 in the afternoon, a lot of noise, noise, bread and circuses, bread and circuses, world a real signal in the evening, you know, wrestling, reality show, presidency, all of that. and then and then he decided to go back to the oval office and do what i think will maybe go down in history as one of the most truly one of the most despicable things. that and

an unconstitutional un disrespectful of the rule of law, appalling, grotesque things that probably is in the pantheon of the worst things any president has ever done. >> so let's go through what happened. just hours after officially becoming the 47th president of the united states, president donald trump set the tone for an aggressive first 100 days in office. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander has more. >> after a marathon day of inaugural festivities celebrating his return to the oval office, president trump behind the resolute desk, signing dozens of executive actions, starting with perhaps the most controversial. >> so this is january 6th, and these are the hostages. approximately 1500 full. pardon. what they've done to these people is outrageous. >> pardoning nearly all january 6th defendants, effectively ending the largest investigation in federal law enforcement history. >> on january 6th, more than 140 officers were injured and

capital property destroyed. the president had teased his plans to depart at least some of the defendants, including earlier at the inaugural parade, after greeting relatives of israelis and americans taken hostage by hamas. >> i'm going to be signing on the j. six hostages pardons, but it had not been clear that the action would include those convicted of violent offenses, including assaulting police, which some republicans had argued against. >> if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. >> trump also commuted the sentences of individuals associated with far right groups the oath keepers and proud boys, including its leader, enrique tarrio, who had been serving 22 years in federal prison for seditious conspiracy. yeah, supporters for those pardoned, celebrating overnight. president trump, also responding to the day's other pardon announcements in the last hours of his

presidency, joe biden preemptively pardoning the members of the committee that investigated january 6th, including former congresswoman liz cheney, along with doctor anthony fauci and general mark milley. none has been convicted of any crime. biden also later pardoning members of his own family. >> i was a little bit surprised that he did it because it makes him look guilty. >> trump also signing a barrage of executive orders, including declaring a national emergency at the us-mexico border and attempting to end birthright citizenship in some circumstances, a right that's guaranteed by the constitution. >> that's a good one. >> the inauguration day had started with unity between trump and biden before trump took his oath inside the capitol due to frigid temperatures. >> i, donald john trump, do solemnly swear. >> in his inaugural address, trump delivering this searing critique of his predecessor without ever mentioning him by name. >> my recent election is a mandate to completely and

totally reverse a horrible betrayal. from this moment on, america's decline is over. >> the traditional parade also moved inside. the president, celebrating in front of a massive crowd of maga faithful in downtown d.c. >> you are witnessing the dawn of the golden age of america. >> all right. in addition to j.d. vance, many republicans in the past said that january 6th rioters should not be pardoned. take a look. >> the folks that that were part of the riots and frankly, the assault on the us capitol have to have to be held accountable. >> there is a rule of law. >> they shouldn't be pardoned. >> of course not. oh my goodness. no. >> no, i do not think the president should have made it. >> president trump should have made that pledge to do pardons. >> we should let the judicial process proceed.

>> i don't want to reinforce that defiling the capitol was okay. i don't want to do anything that would make this more likely in the future. i want to deter people who did what on january the 6th and those who did it. i hope they go to jail and get the book thrown at them because they deserve it. >> americans will always have the freedom of speech and the constitutional right to protest, but violence in any form is absolutely unacceptable. it is anti-american and must be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. >> i saw capitol police officers bleeding, bruised, and i saw damage to a certain extent as we were exiting. >> to call those people patriots is not in my lexicon. so, jonathan, how many of those republicans that have been speaking out and said, oh my goodness, no, we should never pardon those that beat the hell out of cops. how many of those do we expect to hear come out today and repeat what they've said before? >> it was a cliche in the first

trump term where he would do something or tweet something. reporters would take it to the hill, ask republican lawmakers for comment. and they're always like, well, i didn't see the tweet. i didn't see it. i can't weigh in. i suspect we're going to have some lawmakers claiming they didn't see the executive order or the acts of clemency last night, or at least i need to review the details and get the specifics. it is difficult. joe, we talked about this at the beginning of the show. it is if past is prolog, it's difficult to imagine too many republicans standing up to donald trump and saying, no, this is wrong. there might be a few we have known. there have been there have been moments of courage. senator murkowski, as an example there, certainly former senator romney, maybe we just saw susan collins, maybe she will. but that should not be expected to be a widespread phenomenon. although, again, as we and we can't play this footage enough, there are so many republicans, dozens upon dozens saying those who committed violent acts should not be pardoned. even the trump team had signaled for some weeks that they likely wouldn't pardon those, that it would rather be a little more limited in what the president would do. but last night, it's everyone's oath

keepers and proud boys. it's those. i was just reading, you know, a moment ago about an individual who put his cell phone in his mouth, one of these rioters, so he could have both hands to beat on the cop in front of him, including taking the police officer's baton and bashing him. he was sentenced to, you know, over four years in prison, that person now going to be set free because of what donald trump did. >> there was there was iso footage on this network last night of the guy who came out early in the day yesterday and said that he had heard a convict who said that he had heard that he was going to be pardoned later. and they did. they had isolated footage of him from january 6th, where he was beating a cop with a baseball bat. they said, this is the guy right here hitting this cop, these cops with a with this black louisville slugger, that guy now free. >> enrique tarrio, the head of the proud boys. >> now, let me read some. let me read some republican quotes while this video is going. christie. now we are all

entitled to peacefully protest. violence is not part of that. what is happening in the capitol right now must stop ted cruz and 22. a violent terrorist attack on the capitol, where we saw the men and women of law enforcement risk their lives to defend the men and women who serve in this capitol. rick scott, everyone has a right to peacefully protest. no one has a right to commit violence. what happened at the capitol is disgraceful and un-american. it is not what our country stands for. tim scott, the violence occurring at the united states capitol is simply unacceptable. i fully condemn it. marsha blackburn, these actions at the united states capitol are truly

despicable and unacceptable. marsha blackburn while i am safe and sheltering in place, these protests are prohibiting us from doing our constitutional duty. i condemn them in the strongest terms. we are a nation of laws. thom tillis said that calling people convicted of january 6th crimes hostages or political prisoners, quote, that's like calling drug traffickers unlicensed pharmacists. at the end of the day, there are six convicts to me. marco rubio, there is nothing patriotic about what occurred on capitol hill. this is third world style anti-american anarchy. ron desantis violence or rioting of any kind is unacceptable, and the perpetrators must face the full weight of the law. tom

emmer, the majority whip of the house of representatives, those responsible for the violence must continue to be held accountable, and it just goes on and on. john cornyn, somebody who's been duly convicted of a federal crime, is not a hostage. i'm a big believer in our criminal justice system, and i believe that people are presumed to be innocent until they are proven guilty. but once they are, i accept that verdict and i accept that judgment. senator mike rounds, i view them as the same individual juror that the juries that convicted them. there was violence on that day. the people violated the law. they were there were people that tried to stop the peaceful

transfer of power after the election. i do not agree with anybody that says they are political prisoners, and that's just a handful. simone, of republicans, a lot of republicans who through the years and we heard what lindsey said, we heard what what they've all said about about and by the way, the republicans feared for their lives that day as much as the democrats. it's the republicans that were running and sheltering in place as much as the democrats. their lives were at risk that day as much as the democrats, the people who entered the capitol this day intent on harming police officers and potentially members of congress. >> like there's this iconic video of former senator mitt romney being redirected away from the mob. can you think of what would have happened if the mob saw senator romney? they

were searching through the capitol looking for nancy pelosi, saying, where's nancy? where's nancy? last night after this happened, one of our producers from the weekend, evan, he reminded me that in 2020, donald trump signed an executive order after the summer of protests, specifically around racial justice, and it affirmed 1010 year prison sentences for the destruction of federal property. and this is what he wrote in the order. he said, my administration will not allow violent mobs, incited by a radical fringe, to become the arbiters of the aspects of our history that can be celebrated in public spaces. as of april 2022, i believe federal authorities say about $2.73 million in federal property damages happened on january 6th. it's just it's first of all, he has been saying this, as you all said, he said he was going to do this. so for everyone that said, oh it's just rhetoric. oh he didn't really mean it. oh it'll be measured. it's not just rhetoric. donald trump is actually very i heard donny deutsch earlier saying he's a

master marketer. he is very clear and specific. right. you know, he's very clear and specific and i don't the chair of the and to the chair of the crowd, he doesn't need anyone to translate his thoughts for him. he's telling us the president is very clear about what it is he thinks, what is he believes. and i think it's high time that everybody starts taking him at his word. >> during the campaign, david wrote, oh no, no, you're good. your take on this is this may not have been in president trump's best interest. if donald trump seemed to be enjoying this and getting the crowd kind of fired up, and he had the israeli hostage and hostage families behind him when he was talking about this, and then, of course, did it later in the day back at the white house. >> what's your take on this, jonathan, that there was there's other versions of this he could have pardoned. >> there was like 700 nonviolent offenders. and just on that group. and so he instead went for the maximum amount, basically everyone. and this defines his inaugural day. what are we talking about this morning, january 6th, the

republicans want to be talking about january 6th. and then on a from a national security perspective, the proud boys is a very serious signal. the oath keepers is another group. both groups were convicted by a jury of their peers of seditious conspiracy. and remember and again, this is he won the election. it is president trump's decision. he is not in office now, but he chose in the debate with biden to say to the proud boys, stand back and stand by. and if from a law enforcement perspective, if you have a political leader talking about an armed militia group that is taking hearing that signal, now they've all been freed from prison, that is very, you know, very concerning. >> and again, and that was in 2020 and in 2024, we played it all the time. he kept praising these people. he kept the j six choir. he, as simone said as others said, he promised he was going to do this and he won the

election on that and many other promises. >> this was a central campaign promise. and to david's point, this is not just undermining what had been the largest investigation in the department of justice history. it sets up a permission slip going forward. it's a signal to others. if you commit acts of violence in my name, i'll bail you out. >> i had to say, legislative person, say to me last night that, oh, he just let his private militia out of jail. well, yes. >> and i think that's that's if we were talking about any country but the united states and we were talking about in a an autocratic regime somewhere else in the world, we would say that he just freed the paramilitaries. that's, that's that's how we would talk about this. we don't talk about it that way here because we don't have paramilitaries in america. i think we just saw the proud boys march through washington, dc on inauguration day yesterday expecting this to happen. they got what they wanted. and he's sending a very clear signal, which is you can i'm the stand back and stand by for wait for your orders and there will be no

consequences. let's bring in right now the democratic congressman of south carolina, jim clyburn. congressman, thank you for being with us. yesterday was a tale of two days, really. i saw earlier yesterday afternoon you talking about what i've heard other democrats quietly talk about, and that is the possibility of working with donald trump finding legislation, whether it's on on immigration or other issues where democrats and republicans could come together. i'm curious. i'm curious, your thoughts about what happened last night and curious how democrats and republicans move through that and figure out how to work together moving forward. do you still consider that possible? >> well, thank you very much for having me. it has got to be

possible. >> you know, i am from south carolina. >> my senior senator, lindsey graham, you've had him on this morning. >> he has a very good relationship with the new president, the old now new president. i have a very good relationship with lindsey, and i am hopeful of having discussions with him as to how we can keep this country moving forward. >> you know, i listened yesterday. >> i was there for the inauguration, and the president invoked a martin luther king jr. >> whose life we were celebrating on yesterday. but he talked about the dream, you know, in spite of last sunday's scripture lesson on in galatians six nine, i'm growing a bit weary of the dream. i'm a bit

interested in some realities here. and martin luther king jr. several months before that, i have a dream speech. it was sitting in the birmingham city jail, and he wrote a letter on that day, and he said in that letter that he was coming to the conclusion that the people of ill will in our society were making a much better use of time than the people of goodwill. and so i want to see us look at king's letter, exactly what was on his mind when he had time to reflect while sitting in that jail and begin to respond to king's notion that we've got to make a much better use of time, and that the people of goodwill need to come together and start working on behalf of this great country, which is great, but we've got to make this country's greatness accessible and affordable for all of its citizens. >> and so i am up for doing

that. >> i want to work with my senator, both of them. to do that. i saw thom tillis, our senator to the north. i heard his comments. we need to think about our children and our grandchildren, and think about what kind of country we want to leave for them, and we certainly don't want to leave for them. a country with disrespect and regard disregard for law, for the law, and for this country's greatness, that is not going to get us there if we continue the kind of rhetoric. last night, the inaugural speech was not wasn't too bad last night. those speeches were horrible. >> we heard donald trump after his inaugural speech, go downstairs and talk to some of his most loyal supporters, saying a lot of things, a lot of

conspiracy theories, bringing that up in the middle of it. he talked about he said that he had spoken to chuck schumer and said, they have got to figure out how to come together and work and pass legislation. and i'm curious, what where are there some possibilities for that sort of legislation where even after last night, which i think most americans, i believe most americans would be shocked by, but but what what's what's legislation that democrats and republicans can work together on and pass? >> well, you've mentioned already that the white house is talking about doing some real. infrastructure programs that need to be done in our communities. we've done a whole lot for broadband internet. we've done a whole lot to repair

bridges and widen roads, but we have not done enough with safety and security. things like the infrastructure for water, safe drinking water, the infrastructure that's needed to be put in place for the energy that we need to have going forward, not just for industrial needs, but for people's personal needs. making sure that people can afford the greatness of this country. you know, people need to have affordable energy needed to have affordable housing. people need to have affordable education. that is what makes for a great country. make it affordable, make it accessible. it's no need to have all of these great things. you talk about how good our health care system is. can everybody afford it? no. if you're going to roll back the affordable care act, if you're going to get rid of the

$35 per month insulin. my late wife has suffered from diabetes. she fought it for 30 years before succumbing. five years ago. i saw her insulin bill six, seven and $800 a month. she was a full shot a day diabetic. now she had insurance and it's fine. but for those people who do not have insurance, capping their insulin at $35 a month, those senior citizens was a godsend for them. we don't need to have our senior citizens rationing their health care, cutting pills in half because they cannot afford it. insulin. we got it. the rights to it for $1. but now we are letting big pharmaceutical companies take advantage of that. these are the kinds of things we can work with the president on. if we can get good health care for everybody. don't tell me that you are

against the affordable care act and not showing me what you are for. it is there deeds? matthew, the seventh, chapter 11 talks of religion here this morning. this frustrated preacher, son of a fundamentalist minister, goes to the seventh chapter of matthew and let's talk about deeds and stop the words. that's how we know people by their deeds. >> well, we saw some of that last night. democratic congressman jim clyburn of south carolina, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. we want to get right to the world economic forum in davos, co-anchor and cnbc's squawk box, and a new york times columnist, andrew ross sorkin is standing by. it's a bit chilly there, a bit chilly. >> andrew, thank you so much for being with us from davos. tell us the reaction there to the president's the first day of the president's second term. as you can imagine, it's the only topic

here. basically it's a very interesting there's a whole group of american ceos that have a almost hopeful sort of feeling to them, a little bit of skepticism, a little bit of is he going to go over the red line? what is the red line? but it's let's not worry until we have to worry. that's the american perspective, interestingly. >> but everybody else has a very different perspective. >> i think there's a there's a real sense and anxiety among folks in europe, in asia, in south america, leading those companies, politicians about what the role of the united states is going to be, what the relationship is going to look like. the tariff piece of it is huge. >> there was a very poignant quote. i put it actually in dealbook this morning. i was at a dinner last night with a ceo from asia who said the following. >> effectively they said, look, we always liked when america was the leader. >> and that was fine with us more than fine with us. it's different if america has to be a winner, because if america has to be the winner in an america

first world, it means that others have to be losers. and that sort of dynamic, i think, actually encapsulates a lot of the feeling here in davos, the sort of fear about what a winner and loser mentality looks like and how that is maybe a distinction from an idea of a country that is a leader hoping that everybody wins in some way or another. right? you know, it's interesting. and that's kind of how i feel when you go in and do deals. you want everybody to leave feeling like they win. and if they really do my job, i want to leave. having everybody thinking they took advantage of me and i'm dead serious. so they want to come back and do another deal with me. rudy giuliani, while he was still saying negative things about donald trump, came on the show. and as we were all walking off the set, he said, donald trump is like nobody had ever met before that everybody else

likes doing deals coming together. everybody leaves. happy for donald trump. he said he always left. he had to feel like he was the winner and the other side was the loser. and giuliani said, of all the people i worked with as mayor of new york, nobody looked at the world that way. but that definitely to andrew's point, that's definitely what came across yesterday. america wins, everybody else loses. right. and andrew heilemann here, i you know, you're you're there in the annual winter spa retreat for the global oligarchy. so i wonder whether as they as the fellows and ladies there at davos look across the pond at this moment and sort of see the prominence of their fellow oligarchic pals up there. the tableau yesterday, do they think that that is how ultimately that that that the increasing influence of their class is

going to help them out as these tensions play out between trump's, on one hand, isolationism, nativism, the base part of trump versus the plutocratic side of trump, are they kind of thinking, well, we've now got an in with him in a way that we didn't have in those first four years when he was in office? >> i think they look at him as a transactional president. >> and because all of the folks here are particularly transactional and dealmaker ish, they think, okay, maybe there's a deal to be had. >> at the same time, i was actually talking to an executive last night about mark zuckerberg, who obviously has gone all in on this president, president trump. and yet, when president trump was asked about why mark zuckerberg had gone all in on him and was asked whether he thought it was under threat, given some of the comments that president trump has made about mark zuckerberg and said, yeah, probably, it probably was because of the threat. >> i think there's a real question about what that relationship really is. >> and i'm not just talking about mark zuckerberg.

>> it's the relationship with all of the executives. >> i think everybody is feeling some semblance of pressure there. >> there are supporters of his, no question, but there are others who have decided, as we've discussed before, if you can't beat them, join them, at least until you can't anymore. >> and i think that's where we are right now in terms of what the global ceo community is thinking. let's let's take somebody. we just showed a picture of tim cook, who i must say, of all of the tech leaders and i don't know, i've met tim cook, but i don't know if this is the case, but he kind of seems like the one most uncomfortable. the guy that doesn't quite fit as comfortably in there i the question is, these people are still running publicly traded companies. they still have to attract the best and the brightest, and the best and the brightest aren't all going to be wearing maga hats to

work. i do wonder some will, but not not not all. i do wonder how far can they be pushed before their shareholders, right before their most talented workers, before everybody around them that they support or that support them in making apple or amazon or these other companies hugely successful? how how far right can they go and say, we don't care about diversity anymore. we don't care about inclusion anymore. we don't care about we don't care about equity anymore. we don't care about this anymore. we don't care about that anymore. i mean, i understand there are a lot of people, myself included, that think that maybe we started way too far left in the past, but that caused problems. now you are way too far right. and is the workforce and the shareholders are they? and this is not political, this is

business. are they going to really just kind of sit back and go, oh, i'm cool with that. well, you know, it's funny that you mentioned tim cook and i've covered him and known him for many years. and i don't want to speak for him. >> but, you know, he has been a great supporter for lgbt for a very long time. he's one of the openly gay ceos in america. >> and i would say that while he may not say this himself, i think there is great uncomfort around these things. >> having said that, he is somebody who has tried to create a relationship for a very long time now with president trump, he has this very unusual reliance in large part on china to strategy that he pursued from the very beginning of his role. and so there's a practicality that i think he's trying to forge. >> but it is, you know, it's a needle and he's trying to thread that needle. you know, the question i think that you're asking and it's a question i think everybody here in davos is asking is, is there going to be a moment at which this president goes over some form of a red line? >> what does that look like? >> and what do the ceos do? >> you know, last time it was

charlottesville, you remember many of these ceos. they were there for the photo ops. >> they were there more reluctantly than the last time. i mean, last time they were there more reluctantly than they are today. >> but they were there. but then there was charlottesville. >> and then that was the end. >> but this is a little bit different, because i think there's a sense that, you know, his presidency is not necessarily illegitimate in the way that people have been accused of accusing him in 2016. >> so there's just it's a different it's a different landscape. >> and so i think you're seeing a greater sense of support, at least for now. but as they always say, watch this space. >> and as, as everybody that's come on comes on the set says he made these promises. he won the electoral college, he won the popular vote. and he's doing what he said he was going to do. this is andrew ross sorkin, by the way. he's reporting from balmy davos, where it's 2020 now. it's 20. it's not cold there. hold on. just get a hold on. get a little skull cap. >> get a beanie. you look great. whoa. >> you need to let me finish what i'm saying. at 29 degrees in davos for me it is 15 degrees

warmer than it is in nashville tennessee right now. so thank you so much. to combat pay on its way. it must be so hard work. and now we're very grateful and we hope to see you tomorrow. >> all right. >> thank you andrew. okay. >> final thoughts david. >> yeah. >> just the purple states. i was talking to one of our colleagues who covers the hill. >> senators from deep red states fear a maga primary. >> that and they have to be loyal to trump. it's thom tillis, susan collins in a purple state who could lose to a moderate democrat. >> and that's where the key factor is in the response to these pardons. >> and as trump goes forward, moving forward, some of them are part of advise and consent. >> and we'll have to make a decision on some of these nominations with what happened on day one in mind. just saying. >> but you did name the two senators that really, simone, find themselves in a really

difficult position because they have to be careful not to get primaried, right. but if they work too hard at not getting primaried, you know, they they could lose maine and they could lose north carolina, which or maine at least comfortably went for kamala harris and joe biden, of course. harris, susan collins, of course, shocked everybody back in 2020 with how well she did there. but still, those two face a particular challenge, don't they? >> yeah, there are what, about 30 seats up in 2026? we had kirsten gillibrand on our show, who is now the head of the democratic senatorial campaign committee this weekend. and democrats are laser focused on some of these seats. and republicans know that. i mean, to be clear, this is why joni ernst so quickly did an about face, because she, too, is concerned about a primary and her seat members have to walk a

tight rope. obviously, they can't do much to their constituents if they're no longer elected. but at what cost? right? are you bending the proverbial. >> it seems like a pretty serious time. >> nbc news senior executive editor for national security david rohde, thank you very much. we'll see you soon. coming up, as we've discussed, a number of top tech leaders had a front row seat at yesterday's inauguration as they continue to try to establish close ties with president trump. walter isaacson, who literally wrote the book on elon musk, joins us next on the potential conflicts of interest that could arise or perhaps already have arisen. that's straight ahead on morning joe. you'll be back. >> emus can't help people customize and save with liberty mutual. and doug. mutual. and doug. >> well, i'll be only pay f the future of cool, comfortable sleep is here. introducing the new sleep number climate cool smart bed.

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it's really cold here. >> oh poor andrew. well, it gets cold if you're in 29 degrees. >> it's a man of beanie. >> i know a morning joe beanie would solve all the problems. >> okay, let's move on. >> not all the problems. >> a union representing 18,000 costco employees voted to authorize a strike. if the labor group and retailer do not reach a new agreement, the current contract expires on january 31st. union reps say they are pushing for fair wages and benefits, and cite the wholesale giants recently reported $254 billion in annual revenue and 7.4 billion in net profits. alaska is set to resume the aerial shooting of bears and wolves as a population control measure meant to boost caribou and moose herd numbers. the renewed program would allow hunters to eliminate up to 80% of the animals on 20,000 acres of state land. opponents call

the practice barbaric and point to state studies that raise questions of its effectiveness. and champagne sales around the world have suffered a sharp decline, as people are just not in the mood to celebrate. the total number of champagne shipments from france sank nearly 10%, the second consecutive year of declines. the champagne trade association co-president said bluntly that this is no time for celebration with inflation, conflicts around the world, economic uncertainty and a political wait and see attitude, and some of champagne's biggest markets. >> dang blue champs, i want to be very clear. okay, i popped the bottle yesterday afternoon. >> exactly, nice. >> exactly. >> nice. >> so. so, john heilemann, really quickly, before we go to walter, i'm just going to say this about about my theory about free will and bob dylan. you might want to explain what this

theory is so that so that somebody i think we alluded to it but didn't really get into it. so i think most rock critics would consider highway 61 and blond on blond, two of the best five albums in rock history. i mean, certainly in every rolling stone list i've seen after dylan went electric. yeah. and i was i was in that crowd. i saw the dylan movie. don't forget blood on the tracks also. well, that's a great. you know what, though? yeah. the only reason i don't bring that up, which is probably my favorite dylan album, is, is because that's never in this conversation of greatest albums. right. i've just got to say, after seeing the movie and again going back and listening to his catalog again, like the revelation is, johnny cash said the revelation is this kid from minnesota basically falls off a turnip truck and he writes blowin in the wind, which will be a standard that will be sung

300 years from now. girl from the north country. a hard rain's going to fall. sure. and maybe other than blowing in the wind. his greatest written song. don't think twice. it's all right. those all of those songs on this young kids album, that's a revelation. i will say this, that highway 61 was extraordinary, but find me four better songs, better written songs on highway 61, or even double album blond on blond than those four songs. it's going to be hard. i don't want to take up that challenge. and i and i think if your point is revelation, you know, like what exactly? dylan announcing himself to the world and clearly defining himself as a prodigy. you know, freewheelin is an incredible is an incredible record. and i think and i think part of the thing i think is i'm talking more songwriting. yeah. and i think and i think that's

part of the thing is that people that the lists you're thinking of, which i, you know, would put blond on blond and highway 61 on for sure. among the 1020 whatever top albums ever made, those are top albums of the rock albums. and i think the difference is that free will is largely a folk album, and i think that that just sets it apart from people don't put in the same frame for the same reason. you don't put blond on blond in because it it's not as much of a rock record. and so even though it's great, i mean the songwriting on blond on on on on blood on the tracks is as good as anything dylan ever did. but because it has that more nashville skyline kind of sound, it kind of gets not put in the same conversation of pantheon. we need a segment on this. yes. and not when we're having. is that what we're doing? right? one of the great authors of all time, biographers of all time, waiting for us, other than let's let's bring in right now, professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson. we're going to talk about oligarchies and possibly the end of democracy. but if you have any any points on bob dylan

you'd like to weave into the conversation. >> well, i think you're right about don't think twice. it's all right. that's the big revelation for us all. >> and you know, the point that john hammond was making, it's not quite rock. >> it was the folk. i think that synthesis of folk rock back then had a whole lot of influences, including political ones. >> yeah, no doubt about it. i bet as far as just pure sheer songwriting, i think that's what he said. but we'll have a much longer conversation on that. so. so, walter, you, you you've written the biography on elon musk. you certainly have. you wrote the biography on steve jobs. you know, this world, you have researched this world, you have reported on this world, you have lived in this world. i would love to hear your thoughts about what we saw yesterday, where these tech giants, these these people who basically run monopolies were seated in front

of, you know, seated not only in front of future cabinet members, but also took the spots of governors of huge states who were put in a holding room instead of them. >> you remember back in the old days when we would parse the leadership of various countries by who got to stand where in the reviewing parade, and boy, you saw that where an elon musk and a the tech bros and the tech billionaires were there in front of the commerce secretary and had the best seats. the interesting thing is that the democratic party has for a long time, in some ways, tried to demonize billionaires. and now you have trump trying to canonize billionaires. and it's a big distinction in the party. there was a real shift this time around in which the tech bros and certainly john heilemann has covered them as long as i have. they shifted, especially the

oligarchs there, and suddenly became part of trump. and musk did it a couple of years ago, and the others did it a couple of months ago. >> so, walter, let's talk about musk's growing role within the administration. reports are that he already has an office of the president's email address, yet he seems to have won a bit of an internal struggle and helped push out vivek ramaswamy from this doge office. he's got an office in the eob, might get one on the west wing. what do you make of his early moves? >> well, not only vivek leaving because musk is not great at being a partner with somebody, he tends to be a control freak and in charge. but the main thing he did was he pushed aside steve bannon and that wing of the populist part of the republican and maga movement party. i think bannon was the one who said, i'll have elon musk gone by inauguration day. and you certainly saw who got the seats on inauguration day. and i didn't see steve bannon there. so trump has made the call that he's going to stick real closely with musk. and, you

know, as you know, from the book, chapter by chapter, he goes into each of these companies spacex twitter and turns it into x tesla. and he just slashes and burns as if he's got a machete. all rules, all regulations, all costs. and i think for the next 12 months, that alliance with trump is going to work and he's going to be doing exactly what that playbook shows he does. he's going to be trying to do it to the federal government. his problem is he doesn't own the federal government, so he's going to have to use his social media arrows to make sure he can beat back people in congress and in the bureaucracy who are going to try to thwart him. >> hey, walter, i want to ask you another question about elon, who is managed to t himself some headlines overnight when he appeared at that trump rally last night in washington and twice enacted what some people see as a what they call the

roman salute or a nazi salute. others say that they that they think maybe including the adl, think they well, maybe he just got he was overly enthusiastic and got carried away. he seemed to be sort of saying he was throwing his heart to the crowd. a lot of historians of fascism have come out and said, no, this is a nazi salute. there's no doubt about it. and some american nazis have embraced it. some of musk's allies on the far right in europe have said have claimed it all. so i'm curious what you think about that controversy and on the basis of what you know about him, certainly feel free to offer your opinion about what he was doing if you want to, if you've seen the video. but but whether that would be consistent with what you know of elon musk, a kind of that a fondness for a predilection for that kind of political symbolism? >> well, obviously he did not intend it to be a nazi salute any more than i don't think, say, donald trump intended not to put his hand on the bible. it was gestures that he's made.

i've seen all the time like that. so no, i don't think he intended. i mean, i'm sure he didn't intend it to be a nazi salute. >> all right. professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> we appreciate it. thank you, walter. >> and still ahead, our next guest is examining how a 1972 party attended by then presidential candidate shirley chisholm changed politics as we know it. msnbc's juanita tolliver joins us next to explain. we'll be right back. now, the fifth daughter on the 12th night told her first father that things weren't right. >> my complexion, she says, is >> my complexion, she says, is much ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine.

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let's say you're deep in a show or a game or the game. on a train, at home, at work. okay, maybe not at work. point is at xfinity. we're constantly engineering new ways to get the entertainment you love to you faster and easier than ever. that's what i do. is that love island? of sexism and racial inequality that gripped america in the 1970s. it was that daring mindset that drew superstar diahann carroll to the campaign. carroll was a leader in her, a legend in her own right as an award winning actress, and the first black woman to star in her own television series. the new book, entitled a more perfect party the night shirley chisholm and diahann carroll reshaped

politics, explores how carroll used one fabulous hollywood party to help grow chisholm's campaign, and the author of that book, msnbc political analyst juanita tolliver joins us now. juanita, tell us about the title, the timing and the message of the book. >> the title all harkens back to the power and the convening power of two black women who knew what it was like to carve through the steel of discrimination of racism and sexism. and in that right, both diahann carroll and shirley chisholm were kindred spirits, and diahann carroll didn't hesitate to support chisholm's campaign. and what makes this party powerful is because it came at a time when chisholm was being dismissed and denigrated by members of the press, by political leaders, including leaders within the democratic party, who did not see value in what she was doing. >> but carroll saw the power and possibility of what it meant to break the ranks, to take it further, to chart a new path

similar to what they've done in their respective careers. and what i appreciate most about this elegant, lavish party was how it brought together. it brought together people you would never expect to share space from. music industry icon and legend berry gordy rubbing shoulders with revolutionary activists and co-founder of the black panther party, huey newton, or oscar award winning actress goldie hawn. those people came because diahann carroll was exposing them to the power and possibility presented within chisholm's campaign and her policy ideas, and by being in that shared space, they represented the coalition that chisholm was working to build, as imperfect as it was. and that's how i structured the book, to really break down the power that individuals have and can seize in this moment, because the playbook still applies. the people have the power. i appreciate your previous segment talking about oligarchs, but the reality is their riches come from the people. and so one of the things i imagined shirley chisholm would do in response to this moment is emphasizing the need

to build community as the sole way forward, and the power of the people to do just that. you know, juanita, congratulations on the book. >> you conclude in this book that there are surprising parallels to our current electoral reality. what are some of those parallels for folks? >> well, i think about how 2024 saw fractures within the democratic party and their coalition, whether that was individuals staying home, voting for a third party, or choosing to support donald trump. and i think the parallel here is that people felt disillusioned and disaffected to the point where they didn't think the leaders of the democratic party were representing their interests. i think that also comes up, as we know, democrats are about to try to select a new leader of that party. and shirley chisholm reflected a bold leadership because, simone, earlier you talked about leaders kind of bending to the will of this moment. but this is a moment where power is critical and reminding the public of their role in building that power through these coalitions, i think, is the only way forward. >> the new book, a more perfect

party the night shirley chisholm and diahann carroll reshaped politics, is on sale now. author and msnbc political analyst juanita tolliver, thank you very much. great being on. congratulations on the book i love it. all right. that does it for us this morning. we'll see you tomorrow morning bright and early at 6 a.m. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. ready? right now on ana cabrera reports donald trump expected to speak from the white house today, his second term off to a fast pace with an avalanche of executive orders and actions, including pardons, for roughly 1500. january 6th rioters. the defiant reaction from those convicted of the capitol attack, plus the legal pushback already expected against president trump's actions on immigration, including his move to end birthright citizenship and later, the blitz on