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>> hi there everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. the most. unpopular promise that donald trump made as a candidate was to pardon the men and women who stormed the u.s. capitol and physically assaulted cops so unpopular that his own vp said one week. >> ago he would never do it. well. jd vance, welcome to. >> your new life. yesterday, donald trump commuted the sentences of and pardoned everyone from the most. >> violent criminals. >> who participated. >> in the insurrection to those convicted of. >> lesser offenses. more than 1500 pardons and commutations in all for the. >> people who violently stormed. >> the u.s. capitol, leading to the deaths of five police officers and injuring 140 others. insurrectionists who threatened the lives of. every member. >> of congress. >> and donald trump's own vice president. in light of all that, we begin with the.

>> testimony of someone. >> who was in the room at practically every stage of the plot to overturn the 2020 election. >> i was in the vicinity of a conversation. >> where i overheard the president say something to the effect of. >> you know. >> i don't even care that they have weapons. they're not. here to hurt me. take the effing mags. >> away. >> let my people in. they can march to the capitol. >> from here. >> let the. >> people in. >> take. >> the effing mags away. >> let my people in. i can march to the capitol from here. the violence that donald. >> trump unleashed on the men and women of law enforcement and the u.s. capitol is seared into the minds of those. >> officers who. >> were on the receiving end of it, the officers who fought to defend the capitol from trump supporters. >> here's what they said. >> at the first hearing. >> of the january 6th select committee. >> on january 6th. for the. >> first time, i was more. >> afraid to work at the capitol than my. entire deployment to iraq. >> i, too, was being.

>> crushed by the rioters. >> i could feel my. >> myself losing oxygen and recall. >> thinking to myself. >> this is how i'm going to die. defending this entrance. >> they began. >> to beat. >> me with their fists. >> and with what. >> felt like. >> hard metal objects. >> at one point. >> i. >> came face to face. >> with an. >> attacker who repeatedly. >> lunged for me and. >> attempted to remove my firearm. i heard chanting from some in the crowd, get. >> his. >> gun and. >> kill him. >> with his own gun. >> i was aware enough to. >> recognize i was. >> at risk of being. >> stripped of. >> and killed with my. >> own firearm. i was. >> electrocuted again. >> and again. >> and again. >> with a taser. >> i was effectively. >> defenseless and gradually. sustaining injury. >> from the increasing pressure of the mob directly in front of me, a man seized the opportunity of my vulnerability, grabbed the front of my gas mask and used it to beat my head against the

door. he switched to pulling it off my head. >> one woman in a pink. >> maga shirt. >> yelled. >> you hear. >> that, guys? this voted for joe biden. >> then the. >> crowd. >> perhaps around 20. >> people. >> joined in screaming boo! yet another black officer later told me he had been confronted by insurrectionists in the capitol, who told him. put your gun down and we'll show you what kind of you really are. >> the last senate confirmed director of the fbi appointed by. donald trump, was clear in describing. january 6th for what it was. >> i was. >> appalled. >> like you, at the violence and. destruction that we. >> saw that day. i was appalled. >> that you, our country's. >> elected leaders. >> were victimized right here in these very. halls that. >> attack that. >> siege was criminal behavior, plain and simple. and it's behavior that we, the fbi, view

as domestic terrorism. it's got no place in our democracy. and tolerating it would make a mockery of our nation's rule of law. >> so we'll connect the dots. trump's hand-picked fbi director described his supporters conduct that day as, quote, domestic terrorism. and remember where he is. he quit that job before yesterday. but in trump's own words, they were, quote, my people. trump made that clear over and over again. here he is making that point two weeks ahead of the election. >> nothing done wrong at all, nothing done wrong. and action was taken. strong action. ashli babbitt was killed. nobody was killed. there were no guns down there. we didn't have guns. the others had guns, but we didn't have guns. >> and quotes. >> quote. >> we didn't have guns. we. first of all, it's not true. blatant falsehood that the insurrectionists were not armed.

but again, the real headline there is that trump tells us whose side he was on, and it eviscerates the claim he made last night when announcing the pardons that the violent offenders at the capitol were actually outside agitators. either they were, quote, my people unfairly treated by the justice system or they were outside agitators. they can't be both. but now is pardons for 1500 capitol insurrection defendants and commutations for 14 members of the far right proud boys and oath keepers has the potential to turbocharge what's happening in this country already. our domestic extremism crisis, one extremism researcher telling the washington post. this, quote, they are emboldened. they are back. and i think it means that their ranks are going to grow, and we're going to see them involved in all kinds of pro-trump and other white supremacist activity. and their slate has been cleaned. those who fought to defend the capitol that day and their loved ones are grappling with concerns for their safety and anguish,

frankly, that whatever modicum of justice was meted out for what happened to them on january 6th has been wiped away by the stroke of a pen on the part of donald trump, the family of fallen police officer brian sicknick, saying in a statement, this, quote, there are no words that adequately describe the pain of losing brian and the suffering we have endured every day since. never. and it is our hope that the truth of what happened, that tragic day will survive. irrespective of partizan political objectives. we are proud of our son's defense of american democracy and the continued efforts of his fellow officers to safeguard the seat of government and the constitution which guides it. our hearts go out to them as they cope with all that has occurred, and we pray for their strength and fortitude to continue their important mission. joining us now are two of the law enforcement officers assaulted by the mob who stormed the capitol on january 6th. former dc metropolitan police officer michael fanone and

former capitol police officer harry dunn. your willingness to speak out today of all days is something i want to thank you both for up front. speaking out shouldn't come with any risks for either of you, but because of the turns and the fractures in our politics, it does. so i just want to start by saying thank you, harry dunn. you start. how are you doing? >> nicole? thanks for being with you, mike. what's up buddy? i, i got so many calls last night. people that have become friends with in the media, you know, asking me, did i have a response or how are you feeling. can you what's your reaction? and i just ignored a lot of them. i mean, my reaction, what do you mean, what do you want me to say? what more can i say that i haven't said in the last four years? i'm angry. i'm sad. i'm outraged.

i'm hurt, i'm disappointed. i've been all of that for four years. four years. what bothers me the most is so many people out there that are shocked and appalled and can't believe they didn't see this coming. where the hell were you? what were you doing? that means you weren't paying attention. if you're shocked and surprised that he did this, then you were not paying attention. i was fortunate i didn't receive the physical brutality that a lot of my coworkers did and michael fanone did, but so many of them did. they suffered. there was a my buddy sent a screenshot to me with about eight, nine, ten calls from an automated service of the doj saying the person that assaulted you is released from the department of corrections, and it just went on and on. like, what more do you want me to say? like people, what what do people want? we were out there warning

that this could happen, not warning telling this is what's going to happen. this is what's going to happen. and now now people are shocked. people are up in arms. people didn't see it coming. we told you it was. so that means you weren't paying attention. and that's what's most appalling to me. donald trump is who he who he says he is. he said he was going to do this. so everybody acted surprised. cut the. >> michael. >> i share harry's outrage. but again, i'm not shocked and i'm not surprised. you know. >> donald trump. >> announced his candidacy for office from waco, texas. and for those of you who don't know or don't remember, that was the scene of a violent confrontation between members of the american fringe and extremist movements and law enforcement officers and

several law enforcement officers lost their lives. but this is where donald trump chose to announce his candidacy for office. and he's been promising these presidential pardons for those that committed crimes. on january 6th in participation with the attack on the capitol. ever since day one. and so the american people own this decision. you chose this. you elected this man as president, and now you are responsible for these pardons and anything associated, you know, the inevitable violence that will occur because these individuals and many more like them have been emboldened. donald trump announced to america a new era of government, lawlessness and that if you commit crimes on his behalf, you will not face accountability. accountability

is reserved for those who challenge donald trump, and who would dare to stand up to him and his authoritarian regime. >> you're one of those people who stood up to him, michael. are you worried? >> for my personal safety? i mean, listen, i recognize that these individuals have made threats against me and that there is always potential for violence. and i've done everything in my power to prepare myself and protect myself. i am concerned about members of my family, members who don't have 20 year careers in law enforcement to fall back on, and you know who may be more vulnerable? people like my mother, a 76 year old woman, lives alone in, you know, the suburbs of washington, dc, who

has been subjected to some of the most vile and heinous acts, things like having human feces thrown on her while she rakes leaves in her front yard. again, i hold the american people responsible for those types of acts. the american people sanctioned this activity, and they decided that donald trump best represents them. you know, and their. and themselves. >> the judges agree about the threat that everyone involved faces. now, i want to read you some lines from the judge who sentenced the leader of the oath keepers, quote, nothing has changed, mr. rhodes. nothing has changed. and the reality is, as you sit here today and as we

heard you speak the moment you were released, you will be prepared to take up arms against our government and not because you are a political prisoner, not because of the 2020 election, because you think this is a valid way to address grievances. that was amit mehta, dc judge, sentencing rhodes. harry dunn. we had a lot of conversations all along the way of the department of justice trying almost the way, like in a cartoon, you know, the protagonist tries to catch the slippery antagonist and at every, every juncture, doj came up short. these prosecutions represent the only accountability that that that any of any of the law enforcement officials had. and you were asked to testify at sentencing and you were asked to sort of have faith in the process. what does it mean? what

is the reality that we can't look away from when you've got judges who said, if this, then that if release, you will take up arms against your government, and trump does that thing. >> yeah. you know, i from from day one, it's all been it's been about one thing speaking out accountability. and at first it was you know, just the foot soldiers have been held accountable. and i said, no, let's go get the person responsible for sending them. now, the foot soldiers aren't even held accountable. i don't want to be a right. i don't want to say i told you so. i don't want accolades. i don't want to be called a hero. i don't want to need a pardon. i just wanted accountability and that it's gone. it's gone. you know, i i'm tired of being strong and outspoken. and here on the front lines. i'm tired of it. i've been tired of it from day one. but it's necessary and i, i

wanted to take some time and just regroup and get myself together. you know, my sweatshirt says mental health matters. i believe in that. it absolutely does. but it's so much is important. so much is at stake for so many people to just roll over and just continue to be quiet even more now, like i what's the option? what's the alternative? when people have asked me, officer dunn, i've thrown my hands up, i'm done. whatever the justice is dead. america's dead democracy. people feel that way. and rightfully so. rightfully so. but what's the alternative? and i asked them that as a rhetorical what are you going to do instead? just sit around and take it? no, i don't accept it as an inevitability. and you have to keep going. you know, that's why i quit my job and ran for congress, for christ's sake. i mean, who would have right mind wants to willfully join congress? yeah. no, they shouldn't want to. nobody should. you shouldn't want to. after that. after that, i started my pac, harry dunn's

democracy defenders, to help candidates to believe in democracy. then we can't pay for kamala harris, you know, and we're still speaking out. now you got to do something, people. just the apathy, the amount of people who didn't vote. and yes, like i agree with mike, america, we chose this, america chose this. but there's so many people that are going to suffer that did not choose this. and those are the people we have to stand up for and continue to stand up for. >> so what is our what is our what do we owe the people with everything to lose and absolutely zilch to gain? we can't. we can't do our jobs right. we can't tell the story of what actually happened that day without you. so we're we're in the you already you already used the potty word up for the for the block. so i won't i won't use it. but we're in the muck together, harry. what what can we do? how do we keep our

eyes peeled wide open? because. because i think everybody watching. they're not. they're not, you know, they're not fans. and that they watch you from a remove. i think they want to reach out and help if they can. and i think you're right. people don't know what to do. but i don't think anyone watching you guys right now has thrown their hands up and wants to walk away from the fight, but i think they don't know what to do. what can people do today? >> well, i've shamelessly plugged my pack. you know, harry dunn's democracy defenders pac. please get involved. but but but there are elections this year across the country. the midterms are in 2026. the democratic the dnc will be electing their chairperson on february the 1st. we need to be involved, be engaged, be be aligned with the strategy. make sure your voice is heard. so the only time you're not complaining is at the ballot box. there are opportunities for you to express your concerns. express what you have, what vision you have for this country. when people go to elect people to go to congress,

you just don't send them there and have them come back and report to you what's been done. we check in with your congresspeople, check in with your senators. there's time to call your congressmen and tell them that. come out against the pardons, the confirmation hearings that are happening. have you called your senator and told them where you where you stand on that? there's so many organizations that are out there and people need to get involved, stay involved. like like you, we're just a lot of people just sitting back and just accepting what's going to happen without having any input. and yeah, get it. it sure may feel that way. i don't have any input, but i don't accept not doing nothing. >> michael fanone, i want you to tell me, you've said on this program where you voted for trump in 16, a lot of organizations of law enforcement officers voted for him in 20 and 24. and just help me understand what part of the brain can compartmentalize what trump sent his supporters to do to you and

brian sicknick and harry dunn, and what they think would never happen to them. >> well, i've always said that law enforcement is a microcosm of society, and the same indifference that's affected or infected so many americans has infected law enforcement officers as well. i talked to one of my former colleagues in the metropolitan police department and asked, you know, what the, you know, consensus was amongst officers regarding these pardons? and he said, you know, honestly, they don't really, really care. the only thing that they care about is the fact that they've got to work longer hours because, you know, all of the activity over at the dc jail. and i think that's pretty. yeah. pretty significant. i mean, this is the metropolitan police department, the department that responded to the capitol to assist capitol police in protecting the capitol. and these officers don't care. i, i think that it's

a misnomer that law enforcement in this country are stewards of our democracy and stewards of our constitution. you know, these officers are just showing up every day for work and not thinking about the bigger picture. i never thought about the bigger picture before january 6th. i didn't see myself as a steward of the constitution. in fact, when i was a cop, i felt my job was to put bad people in bad places. i saw the constitution as an impediment. i certainly wouldn't subvert it, but it wasn't my friend. and i think that, you know, this idea that law enforcement is going to stand in the way of donald trump and his lawlessness is, is absurd. don't you know law enforcement is going to do what donald trump tells them to do, because donald trump is in charge. you know, the department of justice is not the department. you know, the independent institution that we all think it is, it's donald

trump's department of justice. local law enforcement are not independent, community oriented law enforcement agencies. we'll see in the weeks and months ahead. they are donald trump's police departments, and we'll see them used accordingly. and we won't see pushback. you're not going to see mass resignations. you didn't see mass resignations in the department of justice after donald trump pardoned hundreds of violent insurrectionists that assaulted police officers. heck, i haven't even heard any commentary out of the metropolitan police department's police chief, nor from us capitol police chief, nor from pat yost, the president of the national fraternal order of police, who full throatedly endorsed donald trump in his effort to regain the presidency in 2024 after after having instigated an insurrection that attacked police that killed an officer. i mean, you know, the hypocrisy here is unbelievable.

but, you know, here we are. and. you know, here we are. >> here we are. and here we'll sit with you guys. as long as you'll continue to give us the gift of your voices. michael vernon and harry dunn again. thank you. and an enormous debt of gratitude on my part personally, for having these conversations with me today. thank you. when we come back, there's new reporting on how many of trump's fiercest and most outspoken critics are readying for this release of his newly emboldened, now pardoned supporters. we'll bring you that and show you how some domestic violent extremists view their new reality. and later in the show, trump's effort to dismantle the constitutional rights of thousands and thousands of children born in this country met with an onslaught of legal challenges today. will it do enough to stop or even slow down the new trump administration's huge mass

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45 million coin bonus jackpot party a party in every spin the first 100 days. it's a critical time for our country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. >> so we're going to do it. >> settle in the rachel maddow show weeknights at 9:00 on msnbc. >> what we do. >> is. >> try to cut. >> right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. from hiring lawyers to even buying a gun. critics of donald trump are bracing for the worst, according to new reporting in the new york times. quote one public critic of mr. trump, who played a prominent role in one of the efforts to hold him accountable during his first term, said in an interview that he recently bought a gun for the first time in his life because he was afraid that trump supporters, emboldened by a president willing to pardon them, will attack him and his family at home. others have,

quote, retained powerful law firms in washington, and one departing biden white house official said his plans for the immediate future are, quote, step one take a long vacation on the opposite side of the globe. step two fly home and hire a lawyer. all of those fears are chillingly underscored by insurrectionists now emboldened by trump's pardon. take one example the qanon shaman who said, quote, now i'm going to buy some mother effing guns. joining us, new york times investigative reporter and msnbc national security contributor mike schmidt, whose byline on that reporting. and outside the d.c. jail, where many january 6th defendants have been held, my colleague, msnbc anchor alex wagner, is here as well. mike, that's your reporting about how some folks were preparing. it came it ran before trump pardoned more than at least j.d. vance was read in on in terms of how sweeping those pardons and commutations were going to be.

j.d. vance saying less than a week ago that he would never pardon the violent insurrectionists. and he did. does that alter any of the planning to protect themselves or their families, or any of the folks you talked to? >> well. >> i think we'll tried to do was we tried to go out and. >> capture this unique. >> moment in american history. >> where a. president was coming in who. >> said. >> i'm going to use the powers of the federal government to. >> seek vengeance. so what is. >> it like to be one of those people? >> what is that. >> human experience like? >> and we tried to. >> talk to. many of these folks and they wouldn't talk. >> no one really wanted. >> to talk, certainly not. >> on the record. a few of them did. >> and the. >> thing that. >> came through from what they were. saying was actually. that they. were not. >> as. concerned about. >> being prosecuted or investigated. they still believed in the rule. >> of law, and in the sense that

trump's powers in that area. >> are limited in, in large part because. >> of the courts. and they think. >> that the courts would. be there. >> to advocate. >> for them or to ensure that they are not prosecuted unjustly. so, so from a from a perspective of prosecution, they were less concerned. and they also. >> said, look, i didn't do. >> anything wrong. you know, i have faith in the courts. it's about their security that they're most worried about. it's about the fact that if donald trump is naming them, that. he makes them a target for his supporters. and some of these folks. we talked to fanone for this story were saying this before the rioters had received their commutations. and their concerns were that when you. >> did that. >> you created, you know, 1500 potential new folks to go after them, and that these people who trump has identified and gone after become sort of bounty to

trump and become targets for trump. and they think that that that these rioters or that other folks would see what trump did with the rioters and that they would receive clemency to even if they went ahead and did something. so that is why in the story, we have this anecdote about about a person who we don't publicly identify, but who we obviously know who the person is, who went out and got a gun because they were afraid about their safety. the person was more afraid about their safety than they were about being prosecuted. >> enter alex wagner in an extraordinary body of reporting from outside the jail with folks who say they they they would die for donald trump. tell us more. >> i'm outside the jail right now, nicole, and i. >> don't know if you can hear, but ymca. >> is playing. >> lauren boebert was just here saying she's ready. >> to offer a personal. >> private tour of the capitol

to all of the inmates who are soon to be released from just behind me. stewart rhodes, the leader of the oath keepers, is walking around. there is a mood of jubilation, deep, deep, deep commitment to trump and the trump agenda in his 47th presidency. and i was speaking last night with a father of one of the two of the inmates inside. his name is ben pollack. his children, jonathan pollack and olivia pollack, are inside. they have been pardoned by president trump, and they are expected to come out any minute. and i was just trying to get a sense of how he's thinking about this moment. he, too is at january 6th. he was not charged. but just the level of commitment on the part of not just the inmates, but those surrounding them, the entire community of j. sixers, as they call themselves. now that trump is back in power. and i think it's important that everybody get a little bit of perspective on this and hear this clip from last night. ben pollack. >> okay. >> so you have how many children. >> in there? >> i got two, i got a son and a daughter. >> what were they convicted of?

>> they were convicted of about everything that any other j. sixer was convicted of. i've been crying for four years over every every one of those. me and my friends are. every one of them are my children. and i've been praying that god's been breaking my heart for four years over this whole situation. because these men are true heroes, because they stood up for what's right. >> that there are people. >> that are going to be really upset about this. i know that you guys talk about a time. >> i'm not worried about that. they've been trying to kill it. they've been trying to kill donald trump. god's protecting him. god's protected my family. >> donald trump said today. >> he. >> thinks he was sent by god to do this work. do you think. >> that's true? the god is so much behind this revival in america, and this is a revival. >> do you think now that he's pardoned everybody, he can count on this group of people again? >> oh, absolutely. i would die for the man. i would have died for him that day. >> nicole. that's a sentiment that is shared by other, now

freed inmates that i've talked to from other jails who have come to dc to sort of be a part of this moment. and they've said, look, if donald trump calls us back into action, there are things we will take to the streets for. one person mentioned immigration, that protecting the border, like if they need to go to the border and stop people from coming iic. the sense of energy and of excitement and of optimism about how much is possible under trump is really palpable here today. >> how much? what is possible? what's the what of what they plan to do. alex. >> well. >> first of all, i mean, you have to understand that they are with donald. i mean, they have been with donald trump. not a single person in jail that i spoke to under understood donald trump to be culpable for any of the, you know, the punishment that was being meted out upon them. their allegiance to him has only grown over their period of incarceration. right. and they are coming out absolutely

trusting and believing in everything that he's saying. so to a certain degree, they're waiting for, you know, the marching orders. and i think it's, you know, donald trump has proposed a number of things that are extrajudicial or at least not outlined in the constitution. and i think it's a matter of the degree to which he intends on directing his supporters to help him carry out those orders. you know, some, some things are going to be possible to be, you know, that are going to be litigated in the court system. but other things, you know, it, they stand ready, i think is the is the general feeling i'm getting here. >> so, mike, this is a list of people you published before these pardons as being in line for trump's retribution, people he's named in tweets or in speeches repeatedly, prosecutors and judges, including jack smith, letitia james, judge engoron, alvin bragg, fani willis, the january 6th investigators general mark milley, michael cohen, john bolton, jim comey, andrew mccabe, 51, former top intelligence officials included including john brennan, jim

clapper, leon panetta, the medi, mark zuckerberg, president biden, president obama, kamala harris, hillary clinton, adam schiff, nancy pelosi. it's a list no one wants to be on, but it actually has lots and lots of other members having covered the fbi. i mean, how would in normal times, an fbi assess the threat environment? >> well. >> those people have been identified by trump. and i. >> i mean, i guess what i'm saying is christopher wray testified before congress in september of 2020 that the greatest threat facing the country was domestic violent extremism. and his sworn testimony goes on to say, and in that bucket, the largest category is white supremacist ideological ideology. you now have a group that alex wagner just described, doing interviews on camera saying, quote, i would die for the man. i would have died for him on that day. i

mean, with christopher wray as the only the most recent fbi director to have testified and identified and named the problem, and for alex wagner to have this fresh, you know, interview with people who are the recipients of pardons. and if you lay over that, your list of stated targets, what what would you assess sort of the environment or the climate or the threat environment to be for these folks? >> i think it just underscores the fears about their security that that is the thing that people on that list fear the most. they fear a situation like what happened with nancy pelosi's husband, that they will they will find themselves attacked at home, unable to do something, having to call the police and waiting for the police to respond and having to defend themselves for at least several minutes by themselves, that is their biggest fear. so if that's their fear, there are now a group of people out on the streets who have shown a willingness to do, to take, to

use, to use violence in the name of donald trump, who trump has identified as potential targets. so it is about security. those are the fears of those people on the list. it's about their security. >> alex wagner an incredible, incredible body of interviews. thank you so much for being there and doing that work for us and for joining us to talk about it. ahead for us. >> thank you. thank you, my friend. >> thank you, my friends. they were how these january 6th pardons complete this 180 degree turn for the republican party, who just four years ago saw the violence the way chris rea did and said so. we'll have much more on that next. >> as for. >> the facts. >> classic first timers. >> they don't know that nearly half of all used cars have been in an accident. but carfax. shows how accidents impact price. >> so they don't have. >> so they don't have. >> to overpay. unpause. hey guys. there's a change in the air. - two changes. - two changes. ♪♪

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obligations. get the real. >> value from your life insurance. >> when you need it. >> with abacus. >> we had police officers. >> the men and. >> women that we walked. >> by every single. >> day that guard. >> the doors and we say hello. >> to out. >> there with riot gear getting spit on and attacked. >> i want to thank. >> our capitol. >> police officers. >> and i. >> especially want. >> to just pray. >> for the family. >> of the capitol police. >> officer who lost his. >> life during the. >> horrific events. >> we are approaching a solemn anniversary this week, and it is an anniversary of a violent terrorist attack on the capitol, where we saw. >> the men and women. >> of law enforcement demonstrate incredible courage, incredible bravery, risk their lives to defend the men and women who serve in this capitol. my view is. >> that anyone. >> who commits an act of

violence should be prosecuted, and anyone who assaults a law enforcement officer should go to jail for a very long time. >> that was then when they were praying for the families of the fallen officer, condemning the spitting on and attacking of capitol police, calling the rioters, quote, terrorists. that was the initial response from prominent republicans four years ago to the deadly insurrection. fast forward to today, and the leader of the republican party, you know, the one of law and order has sent many of those violent rioters, many of whom beat cops back onto america's streets. let's bring into our conversation sarah longwell, publisher of the bulwark, host of the podcast the focus group. mike is still here. sarah. this was a vulnerability for trump in the election. this was the most unpopular thing we could find that he ran on pardoning the violent insurrectionists, and he

did it. what does that say about how he perceives his political strength? >> yeah. >> look. >> i mean, right now. >> he's just seeing. how much. republicans are going to. >> swallow for. >> him. >> and he's probably. >> got them. >> correctly marked as people who aren't going to stand up to him. i mean, i don't know about you, but i haven't heard a lot today. from people saying. >> what trump did. >> i've seen some people. >> say. >> look, if somebody assaults a police officer, i don't think they. >> should be pardoned. >> but they're not going hard at trump. they're not horrified. and the reason is that menace and intimidation by trump supporters has gone a long way over the last eight years to silencing republican criticism of donald trump, to making republicans take the voice in their head that knows the difference between right and wrong, understands the right thing to do. but when they get shouted down by trump supporters, they basically

shelve that part of them. and i'll give you a million examples, actually, i'll just give you a few. but, you know, when lindsey graham said he was done with trump after january 6th, he got screamed at in an airport by trump supporters, and he changed his mind more recently, or he changed his tune. more recently, we saw joni ernst, who is a sexual assault survivor, who is somebody who has military experience, who probably should have been nominated as secretary of defense. she did not think pete hegseth was qualified to be secretary of defense. and when she sort of made that statement, she got shouted down to the point where she said, just make it go away, right. and we you know, mitt romney wrote in his book about how senators who are going to who wanted to vote to impeach trump after the insurrection were chided by their colleagues, saying, think of your family, think of your children, because menace and intimidation by trump supporters is how they have kept republicans from opposing trump in meaningful ways. and they buckled under that pressure. and

today, where even though it polls terribly, donald trump has walked in and he says, i'm going to do this anyway, and i'm going to make it clear that if you break the law in defense of me, i don't care whether you attack public officials, i don't care whether you hurt police officers. if you do it to defend me, i will pardon you. i will let you get off. and that is one of the scariest things i have ever seen happen in this country. and the fact that there is an impotent republican party unwilling to stand up and say anything in this moment tells you everything you need to know about how they're going to behave over the next four years. >> i mean, the only voice that's emerged as an outlier is charles kupperman is quoted in your story who says, what are they going to do to me? but it's i mean, to sarah's point, that's the only one i can think of. is anyone concerned with what i think sarah just described perfectly? violence carried out on behalf of donald trump is violence that he'll pardon? >> yes, yes, totally. because they think that it emboldens them. it's not just that trump

has identified them, it's that they know. or they think that if they go ahead and commit violence, trump will be there to bail them out, that they will be doing trump's bidding, that they will be doing what he wanted and that they will be rewarded for it. and the commutations and the pardons that we saw are the ultimate reward for, for what happens on january 6th. it's the ultimate demonstration. this is the probably the most high profile crime in american history. it's certainly the biggest justice department investigation in history, certainly the most photographed and videoed crime in american history. it played out publicly for everyone to watch on television. and in that case, you know, and at that point, we thought there was it was a real pivot point in the trump story that that it was going to be largely the end of trump's political career. and instead, trump's career went in a different direction, and he has

come back to reward them in the ultimate way. i've always seen clemency as one of these things that cuts to the heart of the trump story, because it's a perfect power for trump. it it allows him to gain an immediate loyalty from the person just by his use of power. and there is no oversight of it. he doesn't have to go to congress to it. he doesn't even have to go to his white house counsel to it. he can just do it with the stroke of a pen. and to trump, that absolute power is where he has shown his most success. he runs into trouble when he has to work with other people. he works with trouble when he has to work with other branches. he runs into trouble when he has to work with people who pride themselves on independence. but on issues like clemency, where. >> for domestic terrorists. >> where he can do it himself. >> yeah. >> he he he he really likes, loves those powers. >> so i want to i have to speak. i want to press you on where the

opposition goes from here, because you're absolutely right about where everything lines up. and mike's absolutely right about how much he fetishizes these absolute powers. but, you know, again, as a 448 in the east, we're still a democracy. what is the pushback to all of this look like? we'll have that conversation on the other side of a break. stay with us. >> skating for. >> over. >> 45 years has taken a toll on my body. i take qunol turmeric because it helps with healthy joints and inflammation support. why qanon? it has superior absorption compared to regular turmeric. qunol the brand i trust for the. >> times when. >> cooking just. >> isn't in the cards. >> try brand. >> new ready made meals. >> from hellofresh. >> no prepping. >> no cooking. >> just heat up. >> and dig in. >> and dig in. >> the promise of this nation should extend to all from new york to new mexico, from alaska to alabama.

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discussing earlier, the pardons for the insurrectionists are unpopular. shooting a puppy because it's frisky is unpopular. an unqualified person leading the pentagon is unpopular. i'm troubled that the democrats haven't been able to marshal the things that are known knowns in terms of the public really not liking them and present something to the country about where they're going to pick their fights. >> yeah. nicole, there's a huge void right now of leadership. people are looking for somebody. you know, we're talking about menace and intimidation, right? that is serving to silence people, to cause them to put their heads in the sand or to, you know, take a step back and try not to get noticed. that is the wrong way to approach this moment. you know, look, i listened to people in the focus groups and i can feel there's a lot of people saying things right now like, man, i'm kind of just going to gut out the next four years or i'm just going to

hold my breath. you know, they're scared. people are afraid of what's going to happen. but, you know, cowardice can be contagious. that's what republicans are showing us. but courage can be contagious, too. and so i think that some leaders are going to need to step into the void and talk about the contrast, not just what trump is doing wrong, but how they could do it better. and they're going to have to start doing it right now. i'm not sure why nobody is stepping up in this moment like trump has to govern now, right? governing is harder than just popping off your mouth. people are going to be unhappy with a lot of what he does. so get in there and show them that there's a meaningful alternative. and i'll just say one other thing that i think people need to think about, which is don't let them distract you with nonsense. right. like the gulf of america and all this stuff, or even, i don't know, the elon nazi like trump is pardoning people who committed violence against cops and tried to overturn an election. people need to figure out how to focus, not let trump be like a laser pointer and everybody's cats chasing him.

and i think leaders stepping into the void to help clarify where the focus needs to be, which are on the things that are deeply unpopular, like that has got to happen in this moment. so i hope there are people that are ready to step up and do that, because it's not happening right now. >> i appreciate those comments so much. i mean, i think there's a role that we can play not as important as the leaders who step up. but i wonder, you've never been shy when i've tried to pull it out of you, of giving us advice. i mean, we've tried to spend an hour on the big stuff and my view on the gulf of mexico is, you know, if he if he keeps the violent insurrectionists in prison, i'll let him call it whatever he damn well pleases. but he didn't. so this is our hour on the insurrection. how do we how do we begin to tell the story of him following through on the worst things that anyone's ever run on? >> well, look, i do think you're doing it, but i think that it's tough for everybody else because donald trump, people are talking

about the right wing media ecosystem. it's not just a media ecosystem. it's an echo chamber that has donald trump at the top, creating an incentive structure where people can get rich and get followers and get engagement by sort of running in his slipstream. right. and so this is why you need somebody who is on the pro-democracy or the anti-trump or the democrats, i don't care part of the anti-trump coalition, people who are willing to step up and tell a story to the american people. and that takes look. it takes some charisma. it takes the ability to go into new spaces. you know, democrats have got to stop. just like hiding in comfortable spaces. you got to go everywhere. i think you know everything. everywhere, all at once was a movie i didn't love. but it is a good communication strategy. and so i'm sort of begging people to stop being afraid and to figure out how to how to push back. >> i mean, it's interesting in your, in your story, the couple people who do go on the record, i mean, in your story and fanone still speaking out and they seem

to have everything to lose. >> yeah. fanone is sort of a remarkable character in the entire thing he has is, you know, as he was saying, his mother has had feces thrown at her on her own front lawn, and he continues to go out and speak out about these things. it was just i don't know if you talked about this, but on friday, he was at the sentencing for one of the individuals who had assaulted him on january 6th. and when we had talked to him for the story, he said, well, he'll he'll do about four days. and obviously at that point, we didn't know when the pardons and commutations were coming. but fanone seems to have a pretty clear understanding of the moment. and even though the individual received far more than four days, for no one knew immediately at that point where this was headed. and he was right. >> and he spoke out anyway. >> correct. and he went to court and looked this guy in.

>> the face. yeah. sarah. mike, we're going to need both of you. it's only day two. thank you for joining us. still ahead for us, the challenges to the trump administration's mass (vo) these days, the dollar just doesn't go as far. administration's mass deportation plans. much m it's shrimp your way. choose 2 or 3 flavors starting at just $16.99. like garlic shrimp scampi. get your shrimp on today, only at red lobster. >> pair of jeans. >> pair of jeans. >> brand new. your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire

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and we are in a completely different place today, and it's because of how we need to care for our communities and our customers. i hope that's true. [joe] that's my commitment. [ambient noise] 45 million coin bonus jackpot party a party in every spin. >> we were expecting, based on. >> your initial schedule, that today roundups. >> of criminal illegal aliens. >> in the process of. deporting them would begin. that seems to have been put on hold for a little while. when can. >> we. >> expect that to happen? where will it begin? >> no. it started. we started. ice teams are out there as of today. we gave them the direction to prioritize public safety threats that we're looking for. teams are effective today. >> hi again everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. the crackdown is underway. it has begun mere hours after donald trump was sworn into office, he signed an array of executive orders, pushing forward his

anti-immigration agenda from declaring a national emergency at the southern border to halting refugee admissions into the country and much, much more, all amounting to what the new york times describes this way, quote, the leading edge of an effort to roll back four years of policies put in place by the biden administration and reimpose an agenda that would fundamentally upend the united states global role as a sanctuary for refugees and immigrants. but the crackdown came from the other side as well. donald trump's orders were immediately faced with legal challenges. the aclu out last night with a lawsuit against trump's order seeking to end birthright citizenship, a right guaranteed in the constitution under the 14th amendment. anthony romero, the aclu's executive director, saying this, quote, denying citizenship to u.s. born children is not only unconstitutional, it's also a reckless and ruthless repudiation of american values. birthright citizenship is part of what makes the u.s. the

strong and dynamic nation that it is. this order seeks to repeat one of the gravest errors in american history by creating a permanent subclass of people born in the u.s. who are denied full rights as americans. we will not let this attack on newborns and future generations of americans go unchallenged. the trump administration's overreach is so egregious that we are confident we will ultimately prevail. that lawsuit was followed up today by another from the new york attorney general and a coalition of 17 other states and the cities of dc and san francisco who said this, quote, our constitution is not open to reinterpretation by executive order or presidential decree. president trump's attempt to undermine the fundamental right to birthright citizenship is not just unconstitutional. it is profoundly dangerous. four more states filed their own suit this afternoon. trump's additional orders giving the u.s. military a more specific role at the

southern border, and the one paving the way for him to use the alien enemies act, are also likely to face challenges in the courts. in the flurry of all these actions, trump also took aim at his predecessor and rescinded the order president biden signed just weeks into his own administration, which created a task force to reunite all the immigrant families who have been separated under trump's family separation policy, including children. as our friend and colleague jacob soboroff reminds us, as many as 1000 families and young children remain separated because of that policy. donald trump's massive anti-immigration push starting on day one is where we begin this hour with some of our favorite experts and reporters and friends. nbc news correspondent jacob soboroff is back. also joining us, national league director for the aclu, cecilia wong is here. plus, immigration policy expert and vice president for immigration policy and campaigns at forward u.s. andrea flores is here.

jacob soboroff, i want to start on family separation, because it's where you and i have had the most the most conversations and where i know your reporting is in a league of its own. tell me what trump's actions mean for families and kids who are still separated. >> a thousand children, nicole. as many. >> as a thousand. children today, six and seven years after the implementation of the zero tolerance policy, which deliberately took 5500 children from their parents for no other reason than to harm them. the cruelty was the point and the reporting bears that out. it was called government sanctioned child abuse by the american academy of pediatrics. it was called torture by physicians for human rights. it was called one of the most shameful chapters in the history of our country by the republican appointed judge that stopped the policy and ordered the reunifications those 1000 children who may still today, as i speak to you, be separated from their parents. the federal government effort

that was created under the previous administration, the biden administration, to track down and reunite those children, which is ongoing, was ongoing up until yesterday, has been dismantled by president trump and the trump administration. they know exactly what it means to dismantle the family reunification task force. they know exactly what it means for those children and those parents who have gone through this policy that they themselves implemented in 2017 secretly and then 2018, obviously very publicly. and they wanted to send a message clearly by rescinding the executive order, creating that task force on day one of this second trump administration. >> jacob, i want to press you on the on the why. i mean, there is a lot of support for if you ask in a poll, are you supportive of deporting people here illegally who commit violent crimes? i think 87% of respondents in a new york times poll say yes. it's almost the inverse. when you ask people if they are supportive of separating very young children from their

parents indefinitely, i don't think you get much more than 13% of people saying, yeah, that's a great idea. why? why did trump do this when there's so much support for so many of his other swings? >> because i. >> think that i don't know what they believe, but what i can tell you is they went out there at the republican national convention. i stood there, i reported with you about those signs, mass deportations now and mass deportations, as we've talked about, are family separation by another name. it's not taking children from their parents at the border. it's separating parents away from their children in the interior, at their school. now, as official government policy, potentially in their schools, in their churches, in these sensitive locations that were protected up until the beginning of this administration, but are no longer protected pursuant to orders that have been effectuated by the current trump administration. and i don't know, i don't know what they

believe, but clearly, if they think that mass deportation has the support, they must also believe, or at least take into consideration, that this family separation executive order will also have similar support. but what i can tell you is, having seen it myself on the ground, when people saw family separation, they stood up around the world and they stopped that policy from happening. and when and if mass deportations on a scale larger than dwight d eisenhower in 1954 take place in this country, when the american people see those family separations, the reaction is not going to be to sit on their hands when there are images of mothers and sons and daughters and fathers being ripped apart from one another in the interior. i can't imagine, as i heard you talking about with john heilemann yesterday, that those poll numbers don't shift on deportations closer to where they are on family separations. >> andrea, the moment to see what happens may be closer than anyone realizes. i think people who thought they could check out

for a while may be in for a harsh surprise. our colleague julia ainsley is reporting that mr. homan, who's the gentleman being interviewed in the clip we came in on, has indicated that targeted enforcement operations, that's a quote are under way that this work has started. what are you bracing for and what should the country brace for? >> sure. >> so right now. >> when i listen to that homan interview, i hear a lot. of warning. >> and fear. >> mongering to the public. >> so what i. >> first want to say is that there is. >> no significant. >> change right now to how ice is conducting its enforcement, but there will be in the coming hours and days. and so it's very important for every single community member who wants to support impacted immigrants that they provide. know your rights materials that mayors and go really fund and support their legal service providers, and that everyone prepares to be able to determine what's fact and fiction about

what's coming. what we saw in yesterday's immigration orders, there were some immediate changes to immigration policy, but there were a lot of very troubling previews that will cause great disruptions in our immigration system, not just for immigrants, but for u.s. citizens. president trump has declared that there has been an invasion as unclearly defined, but he's citing the constitution and saying that anyone who came in under president biden participated in that invasion. and he uses that across all of the executive orders to justify looking and investigating every single type of immigrant who is in the us. it's extremely broad. so what i'm looking for is if president trump, to your point, responds to what the public wants and if he starts to exempt whether people who've been here for a long time, immigrants who are dreamers, immigrants who are fleeing conflicts, that the united states, you know, supports their refuge here in the united states. is he going to actually abandon afghan allies who are already vetted

and approved? there are many issues in the immigration space that the public actually supports, but what we're seeing is huge backlash to president biden's administration, which, to be fair, was very damaging on immigration politics because too often president biden told the american people that what they were witnessing was not a crisis and was not a problem. but if president trump overcorrects, as we have already seen with some of these executive orders, he will turn the public away further. and i think policymakers have an opportunity, especially in congress, to be honest brokers and really cut through some of these executive orders and bring the conversation back to congress. >> andrea, i so appreciate the level setting. i just want to ask you to say more and just tell me if there's anything that's been proposed that's reasonable in your view. >> i think that the fact that they are using executive orders to preview and say they want an evaluation of our current vetting of certain immigrant categories, i think it's notable that we didn't see an end to a

program like daca, that daca renewals are still occurring. i think it's really significant that there was an immediate end to temporary protected status, because we know that we are helping nations right now, whether it's people who fled ethiopia's civil war or people who are no longer able to return to venezuela, i saw them not be immediately targeted. and i think those are populations where america has a significant interest in, in protecting and providing refuge. but actually, more importantly, let's talk about the fact that so many of the people who did enter the country in the last four years, they're already in the workforce. american employers have trained them, hire them, and have had assurance from the federal government that they are both vetted and can work legally. that's a huge amount of backlash that president trump could be opening up if he decides to start rescinding status away from people. so i would say that while the executive orders have some really vague, broad legal issues, they also weren't everything that he claimed he

would do. and i'm hoping that he will listen to lawmakers in both parties about the issues that the american public has continuously supported, which they want an orderly process at the border. his decision to suspend cbp one was his decision to end the line that people were getting into to make a lawful asylum claim. the american public didn't want to end the lines that people were waiting in. what they wanted to end was a type of chaotic migration that they had seen take place really in the last ten years at the border. so i hope that they are more responsive to what we consistently hear, which is that americans support an orderly immigration process. but when each administration comes in and just automatically reverses the last ones policies, that's why you have to have congress step in and really modernize our immigration laws once and for all. >> cecilia, something that received immediate blowback, the pledge or the executive order to

end birthright citizenship for future children, born to born to mothers who were in the united states unlawfully or temporarily. there's been a lot of legal activity today. if you could just take us through that. >> sure. >> so andrea. >> just referred. >> to. a conversation that. >> needs to happen in congress. >> and jacob. >> talked about a conversation that's happening at american. >> dinner tables. >> and at dinner tables around the globe. really? we've started a conversation. >> in the united. >> states court system challenging president trump's executive order yesterday that. purports to. >> undo birthright. >> citizenship under the. >> 14th amendment of the united states constitution. >> i think what. >> you. see exemplified. >> in the birthright citizenship order. >> and in. >> many of the other provisions. >> of the. >> nine different. >> immigration related orders that he issued. >> yesterday. >> is an utter disregard. >> for precedent. the constitution. >> and. >> existing laws enacted by.

>> congress. >> and also one key difference. >> between what president trump is doing in his second term. >> and what he did. >> during his first term through policies like trying to undo. birthright citizenship, which he can't do through policies like invoking a national security emergency. at the. >> border to. >> deploy the military. >> to. >> do civilian. >> law enforcement. >> by requiring states and localities. to participate in his draconian immigration dragnet. all of these policies that he's enacted show. >> that he's not. >> only taking aim at people who don't have lawful status in the united states. >> he is. taking aim. >> at our american communities throughout the country, and not just at the border. andrea referred to the fact. >> that many of the people that we're talking about here. >> particularly when it comes. >> to the birthright citizenship executive. >> are actually here lawfully.

>> keep in mind the executive order on birthright citizenship is even more. >> extreme than many predicted, in that president trump. >> is saying that. >> people who are born. >> to people who. >> are lawfully in the united. >> states, but. >> with temporary status, for example. >> someone here who is on a work visa or someone here who is here on a student visa, their children, contrary to 130 years of united states supreme court precedent contrary to the 14th amendment, trump is going to consider not to be us citizens. that is something that communities are not going to stand for. and as you said, he's already been taken to court by us and by two groups of states and municipalities from around the country. >> cecilia, do you do you think? and again, i appreciate jacob saying we don't we don't know what he thinks. but as a legal strategy, are you are you approaching your legal sort of

counteroffensive as though this is a place he wants to prevail legally? or do you think this is a political move that he's made to end, or to threaten to end birthright citizenship? >> i think that the extremity and the lawlessness of some of these orders, of many of these orders, shows that he is thinking that these are political moves. i think that there's no question that we will be prevailing in the birthright citizenship case in the courts. and so i do think that we can look at the set of orders that he issued yesterday, and i think many more to come as a way of donald trump saying he doesn't care about the u.s. constitution, he doesn't care about the fact that immigration and birthright citizenship have been a key keystone of american innovation, of our whole american way of life, of

opportunity and liberty and freedom and equality in this country. he's really taking aim at the vision embodied in our national motto, e pluribus unum. and i think he's going to be stopped in the courts. but it's clear that that's not what he had in mind, that he isn't regarding precedent or the laws enacted by congress or the constitution of the united states, and rolling out many of his policies. >> jacob, cecilia and andrea, i want to thank you as i thank the guests at the top of my last hour for making me smarter and helping me focus on the substance of some of this. thank you very much. we'll be calling on all of you often, as jacob can assure you. thank you so much for starting us off when we come back. breaking news to tell you about regarding the nomination of pete hegseth to be the country's secretary of defense. members of the united states senate are now in possession of a brand new

affidavit from former sister in law, in which she says hegseth made his second wife fear for her safety. we'll share that reporting with you next. also ahead, in these head spinning times, and amid a flurry of actions aimed at flooding the zone, how the pro-democracy movement should separate the chaos and the noise from the most important things, and focus on those that critical conversation with marc elias and angelo carusone later in the broadcast, the white house broadcast, the white house we all know that words have power. they set things in motion and make us happy or sad. but there's one word that stands out, because when people say it, lives are changed. it's not a big word. it's itsy bitsy. it's only three little letters. but when you say it, the life of a kid like me can be changed. so what is this special word? it may surprise you. it's yes, yes, yes,

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makeup foundation ever. >> the first 100 days, it's a critical time for our country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. >> settle in the rachel maddow show weeknights. >> at 9:00. >> on msnbc. >> what we do. >> is. >> try to. >> cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in. >> washington that day. >> there's brand new reporting on allegations against pete hegseth today, donald trump's pick for defense secretary. he

could face a full senate vote as early as thursday of this week. in an affidavit sent to senators today and viewed by nbc news, peg says former sister in law says his behavior caused his second wife, samantha hegseth, to fear for her safety. pete hegseth denies the allegations, and samantha hegseth tells nbc news that, quote, there was no physical abuse in my marriage, end quote. but his former sister in law, danielle hegseth, says in the affidavit to senators that during the marriage, samantha hegseth developed and executed plans with members of his family and mutual friends to help her escape. quote, if she felt she needed to get away from hegseth, end quote. more from nbc's reporting. quote. these plans included what danielle hegseth refers to in the affidavit as a, quote, safe word code word that samantha could text her to let friends and family know that pete hegseth was in a potentially dangerous and volatile state at home, and that samantha needed help. in

the affidavit, danielle hegseth also says that one time, quote, sometime in 2015 to 2016, samantha did text her one of these words and activated the escape plan. danielle hegseth also alleges in the affidavit that samantha told her that on one occasion, samantha had, quote, hid in her closet from hegseth because she feared for her personal safety, end quote. joining us now is nbc news congressional correspondent julie sirkin, who is byline on this incredible new piece of reporting. i want to put a pin in the political dynamics, because i know if you cover that building, you have to count votes. i want to understand the sum and substance of what is in this affidavit and if it's truly new, if the fbi truly investigated mr. hegseth. >> well, nicole, that's the key question here. and we've been reporting this for weeks. we actually broke news last friday when chairman wicker, the republican chairman of the committee, and jack reed, the

top democrat on the committee, finally got briefed on that report by transition officials. and the concern, both publicly and privately from our sources is that, of course, the fbi, in these confirmation processes, does a disservice for the transition or the administration. they are not providing a service for congress. so it is transition officials that ultimately take that report. whatever the fbi had gathered in this case, we know they spoke to danielle hegseth multiple times, including as recently as this past saturday, four days after the hearing for pete hegseth. and they didn't include any of that in this report. i also want to just point out a really important piece of this affidavit. danielle ultimately decided to sign this affidavit, allegations of which we had known about for several days already. we had known that the committee was in touch with her for several days, but ultimately she decided to sign this affidavit, putting her name out there on the record. not an easy thing to do for these women, as you can imagine. and she said that in part, she chose to do this because she's been assured that making this public

statement will ensure that certain senators who are still on the fence will vote against her confirmation. and of course, those senators she's talking about are republicans. nicole. >> let me ask you about how much information the senators have about mr. hegseth that isn't public yet. >> well, the tough thing about this is that these women i mean, we know in the case of the woman who accused her of sexual assault in monterey, california, allegations of which he denies. and, of course, the charges were never pressed. but in that specific case, we know that woman was bound by an nda, a nondisclosure agreement. one of the concerns is that we don't know what kind of confidentiality agreements access ex-wives are also bound by, and we talked to our sources, and that's what made putting all of these pieces so difficult for them. you'll remember a moment in the confirmation hearing in which senator tim kaine seemed to be getting at some of this. he asked hegseth point blank. i'm paraphrasing, of course, but if it's a disqualification to be secretary of state, if you have

abused your spouses, if you have abused your ex-wives, or if you have committed sexual assault. hegseth really didn't answer those questions. and that's something that not only kaine paid attention to, but i'm told sources in the transition also paid attention to. and part of our reporting is that they did know some of this. of course, there's a lot of rumors all the time, and you have to make sure those are substantiated. but as we've heard in that confirmation hearing, nicole, and as i continue to hear before this affidavit was finally signed and made public, anonymous smears, not so anymore. >> it's such a good point. a woman has put her name to these allegations, has signed an affidavit. so there is now an on the record legal document testifying to what is, by any definition, a case of it would appear, alleged domestic abuse. does it appear that this too is being received and processed along partizan lines, or do you have any reporting that suggests republicans view that as

potentially concerning or disqualifying for the nation's secretary of defense? >> i know that republican senators nicole had a big hand in ensuring that this woman felt comfortable to sign this document. she says as much in her affidavit. we know all democrats, all 47 of them are voting against pete hegseth. this is up to republicans. and his nomination was reported favorably out of the senate armed services committee yesterday when roger wicker, the chair of that committee, already acknowledged to reporters that there are whispers of allegations, they knew something. and wicker told reporters afterwards, including our own frank thorpe, i'm paraphrasing again. he said, if any of these are corroborated, it's on democrats to bring them to light. we know, however, that in the viewing of this affidavit, the unredacted version in the armed services committee room, we know that at least 20 senators have viewed it and multiple have been republicans. we know that part of those groups of republicans are people who viewed it, who are undecided and uncertain about hicks death, not only

because of these allegations, but because of everything that we already know, his alcohol abuse. we know that that was a topic that came up in his meetings with republican senators. this is another layer of it. we also know that that memo from monterey, of that sexual assault, the alleged sexual assault that hexclad denies, we know that the transition was blindsided by that memo. so i think at this point, republicans, perhaps they're not going to take the urging of democrats to slow this thing down tonight. they might take another step to continue to advance this nomination on the senate floor. you can understand they are under a ton of pressure. but now that there is a name attached to this, certainly republicans that i talked to are looking at the allegations extremely seriously. but i don't have to tell you the intimidation, the pressure, not only to these women, because i've talked to senators on both sides of the aisle about it and other sources as well. but in trying to report our story, we've gotten intimidated and threatened as well. and so i think that's just the context in which this reporting came about. it's extremely sensitive and

everyone's aware of that. >> is there anything else you'd be willing to say about efforts to intimidate and threaten you? >> well, we've gotten multiple on the record communications. i mean, they are on x. it's public from a spokesperson calling us effing morons, effing other words that i don't want to relay. we've gone out for comment multiple times when we had reporting of these allegations. of course, at that time they were not as part of the sworn affidavit. but of course, we've gotten turned away at every case. they deny all of these allegations. to be clear, parlatore, the lawyer for hegseth, has denied these claims on the record to us in the story today as well. but it's not anonymous anymore. there's a name attached to this, and it's somebody who was very nervous about coming forward, and it's somebody who until friday, when the committee spoke to danielle hegseth, they didn't have this kind of firsthand corroboration of some of these allegations. samantha hexad did say to us that she denies that there was any physical abuse in the relationship. we've pressed her

on the specific allegations that she hid in her closet, the escape plans, the safe words. she didn't respond to that. she simply told us she is not going to be speaking to us any further. cole. >> i'm sorry that you're extraordinarily important. i'm not sure there's anything more important than the truth about the men and women being asked to lead the nation's military, and i'm sorry that you're facing threats and harassment, but i do appreciate the reporting. i think everybody does. and i thank you for taking the time to talk to us about it. nbc's julie sirkin. thank you. when we come back, the things that the pro-democracy movement warned about for months and years actually happening right now, today, how we all need to stay focused and not fall for any of the distractions or shiny objects in these treacherous early days. day two of the second trump presidency. our dear friends, marc elias and angelo carusone will be here. don't go anywhere.

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i totally, totally understand. we're adding a ton of sensors. as soon as something comes in contact with the power line, it'll turn off so that there's not a risk that it's gonna fall to the ground and start a fire. okay. and i want you to be able to feel the improvements. we've been able to reduce wildfire risk from our equipment by over 90%. that's something i want to believe. [skateboard sounds] prize picks app today. enter $5 and get $50 instantly with code tv. prospects run your game. >> it is one thing to cover and understand and try to storytell about what trump is saying he would do if he's back. things like being a dictator on day one, talk about what's going to happen and be prepared to be ready for it. it's another thing entirely to watch it play out right in front of us, to witness our deepest fears. the nightmare scenarios come to life. so for as much as we've talked about and covered the things trump said and what they would mean

for return to power over these past few years, we would excuse you if you feel more anxiety watching it in action than you thought you would, because when it comes to the dire warnings that we heard from democrats and pro-democracy republicans, from experts, former insiders, and trump's own cabinet and administration, it's all different when it comes to pass. and trump does represent that very same threat that john kelly warned about. and we've all understood. but today, on day two, he has the power to act. joining our conversation about what that means for us, those of us covering it, two of our most trusted friends and allies, president of media matters for america, angelo carusone, and voting rights attorney and founder of the site democracy docket, mark elias. angelo, i love some of the things that you've been writing about, but i just want you to share them, you know, and i and we're going to get to the big news. i mean, everything that's in project 2025 about d.o.j. is happening today, the removal of folks from

the key posts. i think we went over those exact paragraphs from project 2025. it's all it's all happening as folks like yourself warned it would. but just just take me inside. what? even with all the warnings and even with all the predictions and projections laying over what trump said and the people he'd lined up, how it's different when it's actually happening. >> yeah, we're here. >> and so it's one thing when. >> it, you know, when you're warning about it and there's so. >> much to warn about. >> and it's such a dense. >> document, you know, 900 pages and they. >> had all. >> these side plans. and don't forget. >> all the authors. >> are out there talking every day about all their. fantastic ideas connected to it. >> so you. >> can imagine. >> what it would look like. >> but and what. you're trying to do in that moment is both simultaneously. >> warn people so that they can act accordingly, but. >> not scare them. >> so much that they immediately. duck and cover. >> now that we're here. >> the way that i look at it in a weird way, is that all that work is just as. >> important as it was. >> but what's. significant about. >> it is that. >> it's sort. >> of.

>> like getting it get. >> some antibodies in the system. you know. >> when i. >> was sort of. >> looking at the. >> first couple of days of action, i don't feel as terrified as i thought i. >> was going to be. i actually feel pretty grounded and oriented. >> and that's the key thing. >> here. >> is that part of. project 2025 is plan. it's so explicit. is that it's designed to disorient. >> it is. >> to do all of these extra legal and extreme things and just sort of smash and grab the shock and awe so that they can implement and sort of execute these things at full scale. and one of the things that i think, and i'm so. >> grateful for the work that you. >> did starting in the early summer when nobody else was really talking. >> about it. >> is actually get people grounded for. >> what's about. >> to unfold in front of us. so to me, my top line takeaway is i don't feel disoriented. it doesn't mean that i'm not nervous, but i'm not anxious. but i see exactly what they're doing and where that goes. and that's helpful. >> mark elias, same, same question to you. again, i had a lot of these conversations with with the two of you over many, many, many months. i will say for me, it was over the weekend realizing that, you know, we are doing this. we i mean, the country and i am, i am i'm disoriented by the democrats.

i'll be totally honest because what do we what do we have to lose? i'm disoriented by the fact that they don't seem to have their shoes, running shoes and socks on yet. and i spoke to harry dunn and mike fanone, and theyn, people who have been targeted and threatened that are out there ahead of an that, that, that, that, you know, lost in this election. they came up short 237,000 votes. there's no mandate for project 2025. there's no sweeping mandate for deporting 25 million people. i mean, the things that they're doing are wildly unpopular, including pardoning the violent insurrectionists. and i wonder, mark elias, your thoughts on that? >> yeah, i. >> mean, donald. >> trump doesn't care whether they're. >> popular or not. popular. i mean, dictators, you know, care about popularity only insomuch as it gets them adulation, but not insofar as it affects their governing philosophy. you know, i was listening before we before

angela and i joined, and the one correction i'd make to the prior reporting, which is accurate, just to be clear, is the statement that republican senators are concerned. republican senators are not concerned. republican senators have been defanged. they are on board for whatever donald trump feeds them. and donald trump has fed them a bunch of very, very unpalatable nominees to make them surrender their constitutional role to advise and consent. donald trump right now, as you point out, is in the process of changing over personnel at the department of justice. and he is conducting purges throughout the federal government to put loyalists in key positions so that he can engage in in his next step of, of retribution of political investigations, of potentially political prosecutions. and there is no republican party that is going to stand up to them. and i don't buy that. like i said, the fact that they are somehow concerned, that's a very like susan collins kind of word, but it's not. but i don't believe it's accurate. and so

ultimately, nicole, it's going to be left to the rest of us to, you know, to steel our spines and to continue the fight for democracy, because this may not have been the fight we chose, but it is the fight of our generation. >> one of the things that fascinates me, angela, and we've talked about it, is the all out, you know, knock down, drag out war between elon musk and steve bannon, who are sort of it's hard, i think, to cover and to focus our attention on it because it's called two tarantulas in a bowl. there's not really anyone to root for, but one does like represent. right? like like the heart and the soul of maga, the steve bannon he went to he went to prison for trump. he's he's he's all in. and again i don't know him i don't know what he actually believes i really i really don't. but at least that that is what he seems to represent to maga. and the other is new but really, really rich and really eccentric and his

public image is strange, but he writes all the checks and i'll tell you this, having covered maga for nine years, they're not both going to come out alive, right? they're not going to like make up. and i wonder what threat that represents to all these very detailed and scripted plans. >> well, in a way, they know they're going to the very machine that has enabled and propelled, you know, what bannon has stood for. and a lot of the. >> traditional sort. >> of right wing ideas. >> the first wave of trump. >> trump 1.0. >> and what bannon really. >> represents right now is sort of that wing of the faction. >> they're going to sort of. >> end up being, you know, getting overrun. >> and. >> overshadowed by the very right wing media machine. >> that propped him up in the first place, because right now the levers have been handed over. >> to. >> these massive tech oligarchs. >> it's not just elon musk. >> it's zuckerberg. >> as well, and others. and that's that's ultimately it. >> the you know, musk. >> himself is going to be able to. >> command an enormous amount of attention, dominance and narrative dominance and then separately wield the tools of x to punish his critics on the right. you know, laura loomer. >> for example, who, again, is

like, you know, another person. >> in the. >> bowl, you. >> know, she. lost her ability to monetize on x, right? >> because she criticized. >> elon musk. >> over these. h-1b visa fights. so that's. >> the thing is that that's where the power and ultimately where the major influence is going. >> to be. >> it's the money and then the system on top of it. so there's going to be a lot of bloodletting and some fighting and some claws that come out. but i think there's a bigger thing here to keep in mind, and this is a little bit of a bright spot for the next few. >> months because. >> it's, you know, a lot of this is about the projection of power. and we just have to be mindful every day not to give trump and what he represents and project 2025 more power than it actually has. you know, and i think, mark, what you said before is right. they've been defanged. the republicans have. so they're not going to be a check. but i think to me, the. big takeaway is that. >> it does. >> show the bannon musk thing that there's a very tenuous coalition there. they're not the only two factions that trump is trying to keep together. there's a lot of fracture points and fissure points there. and i think by us not overreacting or reacting to the wrong things and picking our battles well, and that's why i think what you said

before about the democrats being disoriented is so disturbing is that they there's actually a lot of vulnerability and weakness there. and if we can't let them paper over those cracks. and that, i. >> think is. >> one of the key things right now, is that it's a lot softer than i think that i think people fully realize, and that bannon, musk is only one of the fault lines. >> okay, we're going to see this to me. maybe this is maybe this is our purpose, right? we've got two hours every day. i think that's exactly right. i think it's political insanity. i mean, i don't agree with tom cotton. i think he's his ideas are are extreme. i think he was the first person to talk about the insurrection act back in, back in the first trump presidency. but you could not mount an argument that he's not qualified to be the secretary of defense. and i feel like by republican senators giving up on their role of saying, at a bare minimum, we're we're going to have people that are qualified, right? people that there are no allegations of rape, there are no allegations of alcohol abuse. there are no examples of squandering all the money of a small veterans affairs

nonprofit. i mean, i think that this is a major and the midterms are in 700 days. and it sounds silly to say 700 days from now, but it's going to be upon us in a nanosecond. and i want to press both of you on what that conversation looks like and how and who sustains it. i have to and who sustains it. i have to sneak in a short (sneeze) (hooves approaching) not again. your cold is coming! your cold is coming! thanks...revere. we really need to keep zicam in the house. only if you want to shorten your cold! when you feel a cold coming, shorten it with zicam (revere: hyah) t-mobile's 5g network connects a hundred thousand delta employees so they can make every customer feel like they've arrived before they've left the ground. this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business. (children speaking)

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things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily and send money quickly. [coins clinking] ♪♪ that's convenience from chase. make more of what's yours. nice to meet ya. my name is david. i've been a pharmacist for 44 years and i'm from flowery branch, georgia. when i have customers come in i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective. does not require a prescription. and i've been taking it quite a while myself and i know it works. and i love it when the customers come back in and tell me, "david, that really works so good for me." makes my day. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. tell me what your conversations with democrats behind the scenes

are like. i mean, i think you're your social media posts do a lot, i think, to steal the spines of those of us in the media. i want to know what your counsel is to democrats on how to sort of steel their spines in this moment. >> look, i think the fact is that democrats right now are dealing with the reality that donald trump was just elected and that republicans control the house and the senate. they are in the midst of choosing a new a new party chair. so, you know, we are at a transition point for how the democrats are going to react to a new president when they are now when republicans are entirely in charge. but i think you start to see green shoots of an opposition. you look at what, for example, governor j.b. pritzker put out last night on on x, you look at what a number of members of congress and members of the senate have been have been saying. and you see that there is pushback that is happening. but i think it is important, nicole, that we not take the attention off of the

republicans, because fundamentally, the democrats don't have the numbers to stop a headset. the republicans have the numbers to stop a headset. the republicans own every one of these terrible nominees, and these terrible nominees were sent to them by donald trump because they were terrible, not in spite of it. he wants to show them who is the boss by making them vote for tulsi gabbard, by making them vote for pete hegseth, by making them vote for kash patel as fbi director. because once they do that, they will have lost all dignity. so democrats will stand up and oppose, i suspect, most, if not all of the people i just mentioned, as well as probably others. but the real the real story going on here is what is happening on the other side of the aisle where republicans have just completely forfeited the playing field. >> i agree with you. i think we see that exactly the same. and i believe in the pit of my gut

that most of the all the nominees will get through. but i guess my question mark elias is, is tommy tuberville held up a thousand nominees that to the pentagon. they impacted combat readiness according to the pentagon at the time. is there a tactical shift that can be adopted? i asked jamie raskin yesterday if any of the senate committees, considering the nominees that are exactly as you describe them, have called him about what worked for the january 6th select committee hearings, which were so successful as a public education exercise and as a political cudgel against donald trump and his actions on january 6th. he said no. and he offered some advice on the airwaves. i mean, who's convening democrats to sort of marshal their talent and their tactics that are available to them? >> yeah. look, i don't know exactly who is running point on each of these nominations. that really isn't my role. i can tell you that right now. there is a there is a concerted effort. there is a broad scale effort right now to attack these on

illegal and unconstitutional executive orders. in court, we saw a series of lawsuits filed literally seconds after the after the president was sworn in against the fake d.o.j. entity. and we have seen more litigation in the last 24 hours. and i will promise you, we're going to see more litigation in the days to come, days to come. and i think that's really important because the fact is, you know, like i said, the republicans control the federal government from top to bottom. it is ultimately the job of the courts to not allow donald trump to get away with what he is trying to get away with. i mean, the fact is, birthright citizenship is in the constitution, and that is something that donald trump can't change. and it is something that the courts need to handle. and we all need to be prepared to deal with that. >> angelo and mark will continue to call on both of you. let's keep this going. thank you so keep this going. thank you so much for joini (tony hawk) i still love to surf, snowboard, and of course, skate, so i take qunol magnesium to support my muscle and bone health.

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fear for their lives. they may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. they pay taxes and are good neighbors. i ask you to have mercy, mr. president, on those in our communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away. >> donald trump is rarely confronted after the sermon was over. trump and j.d. vance shared a look. unsurprisingly, trump later told reporters he trump later told reporters he didn't like that service. we shall overcome. we shall overcome. the struggle for equal rights in the united states has been hard fought, but even today, we're still fighting for racial justice, for voting rights,

and against hate and extremism. you can help us win the fight and envision a future where all americans can thrive. by joining the southern poverty law center today. please call now or go online to helpfighthate.org to become a friend of the center. all it takes is just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. we shall live in peace. we shall live in peace. for more than 50 years we've been defending the rights of people facing discrimination, racism and bigotry in the u.s, and we do it all at no cost to our clients. but the civil rights movement is not just in the past. it's our movement right now. so please call or go to helpfighthate.org and join us. when you use your credit card you'll receive this special fight hate t-shirt

to show your standing up for civil rights. the future of our country is in our hands. but it won't come without a fight. that is why we need your support today. deep in my heart. i do believe we shall overcome someday. with your support, we will overcome hate and injustice. so please call or go online to helpfighthate.org today.

so please call or go for all those making it big out there... ...shouldn't your mobile service be able to keep up with you? get wifi speeds up to a gig at home and on the go. introducing powerboost, only from xfinity mobile. now that's big. ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. >> thank you very much. >> welcome to the beat. >> president trump. >> is using his new powers. >> to side against police.