inauguration. can you explain this new desire to be a lead on it? >> well, i would love to say that i completely understand crypto. what i can tell you is, and i know a lot of americans are still also wrapping their heads around sort of the machinations of crypto. what he's saying is that this executive order in the in the actions that it's going to take, is going to really solidify america's standing when it comes to crypto and really, in some ways allow this country to benefit as much as possible from crypto. so it'll be very interesting to see what the actual consequences of that executive order will be. katie. >> all right. yamiche alcindor, thank you very much for joining us. and i'm going to hand it now to deadline white house, which starts right this second. >> hi there everyone. you made it to thursday. >> it's 4:00 in new york. >> today. a. >> federal.

>> judge giving donald trump the first major setback of his new administration. just four days in. delivering a legal body blow to. >> trump's plan. >> to. >> fundamentally reshape. the u.s. constitution by ending birthright citizenship. >> a judge appointed. >> by ronald reagan. issuing a. >> temporary restraining. >> order blocking. >> trump's executive order. >> condemning the eo itself by saying this, quote, i have been on the bench. for more than four decades. i can't remember another case. >> where. >> the. question presented. >> is as clear as this one. >> this is. >> a blatantly unconstitutional order. >> frankly. >> i have difficulty understanding. >> how. >> a member. could state unequivocally that this is a constitutional order. it just boggles my mind. >> thwarting trump's. >> key campaign promise in just 25 minutes in the. >> hearing, a lawyer for. >> four of the state suing highlighted the cruelty of the policy, noting. >> that without. >> birthright citizenship. >> quote. >> children being. >> born might have no legal status. >> might be subject. to deportation, stateless, subject

to travel. >> restrictions. >> deprived of their right. >> to vote. >> as they age, deprived of their right. >> to work. >> legally and deprived of their vote to participate in our democratic. >> system. these individuals will lose their right to be full. >> participants in our. society as a new, permanent underclass in the country. >> the order is now blocked for 14 days pending further briefing to make that order permanent. >> in a. >> statement. >> the. >> attorney general for arizona, one of the four. states seeking to block the order, said this, quote, today's ruling. is a. >> win for. >> the rule of law and the u.s. constitution. >> no president can change the constitution on a whim, and today's. decision affirms. that trump's. d.o.j. vowing to fight on. saying they. will vigorously defend their executive order. the case is almost certain to be appealed to the united states supreme court, and it remains to be. seen how trump's handpicked. >> justices will rule. >> this major. >> stumbling block and rebuke.

>> to one of trump's. >> key campaign promises is where we start today with some. of our favorite. >> reporters and. friends. >> msnbc legal analyst. >> and nyu. >> law. >> professor melissa. >> murray is here with me here at the table. >> alicia menendez. co-host of msnbc's the weekend and former. republican congressman and msnbc. >> political analyst. >> david jolly. >> is back. melissa murray on the law. >> this seems black and white. >> how did we get here? >> it's unclear. >> how. >> we got here. we definitely didn't get. >> here by. >> reading or reading the constitution, because if. >> we had read the. >> constitution, we. >> would have seen very. >> clearly that. >> it states unequivocally that those individuals. >> who. >> are born in or. >> naturalized in the. united states and. >> are subject to the jurisdiction. >> thereof, are. >> citizens of the united. >> states and the state. wherein they are born. that's that's the. >> text of the. constitutional amendment. >> and the 14th. >> amendment. >> was passed. >> in. >> the wake. >> of the american. >> civil war for the. >> purpose of repudiating. >> dred. >> scott versus sandford. >> which said. >> that african americans could not be citizens. ever because.

>> they were. >> descended from african slaves. it was. >> a rebuke. >> to that. hierarchy of racial supremacy, and it has been affirmed by the supreme court. repeatedly throughout. our history. nothing could be more plain. the conservatives are arguing. that the question of whether children born to undocumented. >> persons, or those who are here. >> temporarily on visas, or whether. >> they are. >> subject to the jurisdiction of. >> the. united states, makes this a. >> more open question. that is. >> not the case. >> the judge probed that today. asking if they're not. >> subject to the jurisdiction of the united. >> states, does that mean we cannot. >> prosecute them when they break laws? >> and the lawyers were flummoxed. of course. >> you could prosecute. >> them because they. >> are. subject to. >> the jurisdiction of the united states. >> in all purposes. so this seems very open and shut. but of course, it is on its. >> way to the united. >> states supreme court. >> yeah. >> i mean. >> i guess. >> i the, the asterisk i'd. >> put into. >> all of the clarity. >> that this ronald. >> reagan appointed judge offered today is that some of this analysis. >> was also. >> provided around. >> absolute immunity. and i wonder. >> if you can pull the thread

forward, what will be argued. >> in front of the. >> supreme court? >> well. >> there's. >> going to be a broad. >> argument that the president has these implied or inferred powers. >> that allow. >> him to take. steps to regulate either emergency situations or major situations like immigration, where executive power is. perhaps at its peak. but again, the president himself cannot amend the constitution. >> or by. >> executive order. there is. >> a process. >> laid out in article five of the constitution that makes very clear how you go about amending the constitution. this is part of the constitution, the provisions for birthright citizenship. if you want to change it, then. >> you. >> have to go through the process of amending the constitution, going to congress, or alternatively, going to the state legislatures and making your case there. you cannot simply put this out, no matter how broad the implied or implicit powers of the president are. they don't go this far. and i'll be clear. i'm not sure that you're. >> going. >> to get. >> a unanimous.

>> decision at the united states supreme court. you should, by all accounts. but there may be. >> a. >> couple of justices here who are willing to buy on to this cockamamie theory, but i don't see this surviving here. but again, the goal here. >> is to flood the. >> zone, make people scared, divert resources. >> from other things. >> there is a success. story in trump's telling. well, in any telling of. >> the moving. >> of the overton window, right? >> yeah. that's right. >> this was too crazy. >> to do in trump 1.0. >> this now has the. >> support of. >> i think, about a third of the american people when it's polled. so in some ways a legal defeat may be the price he's willing to pay. >> for changing people's minds. >> yeah, i think measuring support of donald trump's immigration agenda is interesting, because a lot of it in how it's framed and sometimes how donald trump lies about it. donald trump on inauguration day said, we're the only country. we're not the only country there's over, i believe, 30 nations that allow birthright

citizenship. so one right there, if you tell the american people we're the only country. well, now people feel a little reflexive about it. but i think what's fascinating is on some simple immigration enforcement matters, donald trump and republicans actually are well over 50%. if you take the lake and riley act. that's an example of someone who, if there is an undocumented person who is detained for a crime now ripe for abuse, some democrats have pointed that out. but the american people support detaining that person, even having a hearing for deportation. but if you move to, we are going to rescind the biden rules that now allow ice to go into churches and schools and rip a sixth grade girl away from her dad, and now they're separated, and neither one of them know what their future holds, or the president's going to violate the 14th amendment with the stroke of a pen and try to overturn what is a basic right that we give to people born here on u.s. soil. i think that's where the american people say, well, hold on just a minute. and it's fascinating the way you frame the question, because donald trump is moving the debate in a direction, but

he doesn't have to. he's actually getting in his own way and in the way of capitol hill republicans because he's unhinged, he's untamed and unwell. and i think he's many americans. i think millions of americans still consider him a danger to the country. we saw it in exciting the rally in j. six when he was in office. we saw it with the abuse of classified documents. when he was out of office. we saw it with his violation of the 14th amendment yesterday, and he is on a wretched grievance campaign. but what fundamentally this reveals is the very dark nature of the anti-immigrant campaign and platform of the republican party. he's doing this because this is where the heart of the republican party is, and it's a pretty ugly heart. >> the other thing that's interesting, melissa, is he's turning the judges. >> who simply. >> stare at facts. >> precedent, and the constitution. >> into subversive actors. i mean. this is a. >> judge, a confirmed. >> appointed by. >> a conservative republican. >> i'm sure. >> trump will have something nasty. >> to tweet. >> about him later in the day.

>> and the idea that a strict interpretation of the. >> letter of the constitution is something that's going. >> to be fodder in our politics, is a. >> sick mile. >> marker in. >> our descent. >> well. >> that's certainly. >> the case, nicole. and i think it's only exacerbated by what we've seen over the last three days, and the fact that we saw the january 6th protesters, rioters pardoned suggests that if you are there defending donald trump, no matter what you do, even if it is, it contains elements of stochastic violence. you will be excused. you will be pardoned. there is someone who is going to be looking out for you, and that person sits in the oval office. we've already seen that there's a real fear among some members of the judiciary. esther salas, a judge in new jersey, saw her husband and her son attacked. her son was killed by someone who was actually looking for her and who also had documents with a dossier for justice sotomayor with him at

the time. so the threat against judges just doing their level best, as john roberts has once said, is real. and it has been amplified because of the things we have seen just over the course of the last three days. >> i mean. >> in some ways. >> it becomes. >> the only. >> friction point left, right. republicans in the senate. making abundantly. >> clear that they are. >> truth and fact immune. >> smearing and lying. about the witnesses and. >> folks offering. >> testimony about. >> pete hegseth qualifications. >> and others. you've got a lot of people. >> being threatened in real time. >> in. >> the fourth. >> estate and the media. you've got. democrats sort of regrouping after november. and i think if you try to sort. of pull. >> the trump story. >> forward, i wonder if this wasn't some. >> sort of. >> temperature taking on how much. strength and how. >> much adherence to. >> the rule of law exists on the bench? >> well. >> while he's doing his

temperature taking. there are moms and dads. across this country. >> who are. excited and ready to welcome. >> their first baby. >> and they are thinking about all. >> those things that moms and. >> dads think about. when you head to the hospital. >> am i. >> going to be okay? >> are they going to. be okay? how much are. >> they going to weigh? >> ten fingers. >> ten toes, all those things. and now you. >> have parents, whether they are here on. >> visas or whether. >> they are undocumented themselves, who now have to worry that they're going to fall into some strange legal gap. and there are ways in which states can make this either easier or harder for them, can. >> offer protections. there was a law. >> back in 2015 where if you lived in the state of texas and you wanted to get a certified birth certificate from the state, you. >> had to provide. >> documentation that undocumented people in the state of texas wouldn't have. so some of those. folks who sued. the state department. >> of health to. >> say this is outrageous because you're de facto ending. birthright citizenship in the state of texas. if my kid doesn't have a certified. birth certificate, then they can't go

to school, then they can't get health care, then they don't have the right to vote. >> and so they can't get a passport. >> this is not the first time we've. litigated this. and i think part of the question becomes, has donald trump opened the door to other actors who want to act in the model of stephen miller? i think stephen miller was the only piece that was missing from the answer. >> to your question about. >> why he's doing this, because stephen miller is driving the bus here and he will not stop until he has fundamentally changed the nature of this country, which is ironic to me, because the argument that stephen miller makes and that donald trump makes as a proxy, is that immigrants are changing the very fabric of this country. in reality, it is stephen miller and donald trump through actions like challenging the 14th amendment, challenging our constitution that. >> are. >> in fact changing the fabric of this country. >> we have been joined in progress by my colleague. nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley. she was following today's challenge. >> julia.

>> the reporting your reporting says it took this judge 25 minutes to say. >> no, go. >> this violates the constitution. >> and in judge speak, basically says whose dumb idea was this? we've been trying to sort of poke. behind the obvious lack of. constitutional merit in what they were doing to try to understand what this was, was really about this, this, this defeat and this this, you know, this legal setback couldn't have been a surprise even to the. >> trump folks. >> who wrote it. what is what is their real strategy here? >> i mean, they're going to continue to take this, i think, in all likelihood to the supreme court, we can expect a legal challenge to the appellate level, and then they'll want to go to the supreme court. we've seen, at least in the executive order, that they think that they can argue about these words subject to the jurisdiction of, because the 14th amendment says that all children born here to us citizens and anyone who is subject to the jurisdiction of the united states, is considered

a us citizen upon their birth. now, there are some exceptions to that. some carve outs, for example, diplomats, because when they are here, they're not under the subject of the jurisdiction of the united states. and so their children become citizens of the countries that they represent. they want to widen that net. but i talked to some of the lawyers who are arguing against this executive order, and they think that they're actually helped by the fact that trump widened that net, that aperture so far, because not only does the executive order make children born to mothers who are here, as they would say, unlawfully or without, without the proper documentation, they would say it goes further to say, not only could you be here unlawfully, you could be here lawfully on a visa, but temporarily. that could hurt businesses who want to incite high skilled workers to come here and work for them. if when they have a child, that child is essentially stateless, that could really throw a lot into limbo for a lot of people, not to mention being in violation of

the constitution. and so they think that honestly, this should be a slam dunk case. and they've seen it really in the same way that the judge did today. i think, though, regardless of what comes next, the strategy apart from the legal strategy, is to have this conversation because trump and stephen miller and people who are very hard line on immigration within this administration want the american people to be talking about immigrants who want to come here and have their children. we hear the very racist term anchor baby being being thrown around, that they think that this is an incentive for people to cross the border illegally and have their children here, and it's something that they want to turn off. and that's a conversation that they want to keep, keep repeating, even if they're failing in court. >> alicia david. >> jolly mentioned. >> something that i think went into effect tuesday and that was lifting. >> a ban. >> on ice agents. >> going into. >> sensitive spaces, which includes schools, hospitals and

churches. we're talking. >> about friction. >> points, and we're talking about the american people's views on immigration. i think it's been, i don't know, the last time people have witnessed ice law enforcement agents storm into churches, schools and hospitals, but that is now permissible. your thoughts on how that changes the debate and how schools, churches and hospitals prepare for that? >> so let's put a big asterisk on it if they do it right. because i think part of our concern is that they threaten to do it. so it looks like they're talking tough. and then you have communities that are absolutely frozen, parents not sending their kids to school. we know that is already happening, especially. >> in places. >> like chicago. people not showing up for work. they wait, they wait. it may or may not happen. right. i was. >> watching today. >> the congressional hispanic caucus. they had a press conference, all their members talking, and representative joaquin castro of texas said, who among those kids does he meaning donald trump believe is a criminal in a first grade

classroom? right. like if you have convinced the american people that the reason we need to be focused on immigration in this country is because of criminality and because there is a threat to this country that are you trying to tell me that that threat lurks in churches and in classrooms? right. and why are you telling me that you want to take resources that are supposed to be spent on confronting terrorist threats and instead redistribute them so that you have more resources at the border? i think what they have done a good job of is collapsing all of this so that people believe that the threat at the exterior is the same as the threat in the interior. but to answer your question, i think if you have images of ice agents entering churches, entering schools, it fundamentally changes the discourse that we're having in this country. i am hopeful, though, that we do not see those images, and it does not require that in order to change the discourse, because we already know what this looks like, talk to people who were

part of the school communities. 2019 when the mississippi raids happened in workplaces, a lot of those principals, they had they had no idea what to do. they had to gather up all their students, see who did get picked up at school, see who didn't get picked up, start a running list of which parents were missing. make contingency plans for those schools. as one of the educators said, you know, we have plans for natural disasters. we know what to do. we have a go plan. we at the time, they did not have go plans for when ice came and entered a workplace, and mom and dad didn't show up at the end of the day to pick their kid up from school. >> so julia, they did lift. >> this ban on tuesday. what is the plan according to ice? >> well, look, right now they're up against a cash strapped agency, and we know what they're doing internally is they're putting out a lot of pictures. so we're seeing pictures right now of immigrants being arrested. they're being leaked to more conservative media like fox and the new york post. and we're seeing migrants being arrested who are, by and large,

have criminal backgrounds. so of course, they're not ruling out the possibility that some others are being picked up as collateral arrest. i will say that the numbers, though, aren't really different from what we saw under the biden administration. in september, there were 282 migrants per day arrested by ice. i was just in harlingen, texas, last week for one of the last deportation flights, the biden administration. they flew 100 people back to honduras. it's not that this didn't happen before, and because they're so cash strapped, we have not yet seen the large scale raids that were promised. and so instead, we're seeing a spotlight on what is really normal routine operations. these people were already on the list of isis fugitive operations teams. they're going out and arresting them. now. we haven't seen anything like the plans that were drawn up for chicago, which we reported on over the weekend that apparently got canceled because of media leaks, but we haven't seen anything on that scale. now, i will say the pieces are on the chess board to amplify what these arrests could

look like. so i think it's too early to say that this plan hasn't worked. ice is at a $230 million budget shortfall. but when you look at the things that stephen miller just announced last night, being able to use federal law enforcement like atf and dea and fbi to go after immigrants and increase arrests, to be able to use the military not only to use military bases to hold immigrants, but to be able to deport as many as 5000 immigrants on military planes. all of that can increase their numbers and get us more closer to a territory that alicia is talking about. so i think time will play out. and of course, they could appeal to congress for more funding as well. >> julia ainsley, thank you for your. reporting on this. >> david and alicia. melissa, stick around. >> when we come back. >> as the timeline for the promised. mass deportations begins to come into. >> focus. >> alicia reminds. us these are human. >> beings that we're. >> talking about. >> and families, people who have. everything to lose more on the sheer. force of.

>> impact on those families and communities as they. >> await to see what's. >> in store for them. >> plus, so. >> much for anonymous smears. even as the senate. advances the nomination. >> of pete hegseth for defense secretary, there. >> are brand new. >> revelations about his. past to tell you about. >> and a. >> little later, as trump's allies seek to revise. history and exact revenge over. >> what happened on january. >> 6th, the. >> number of federal judges are having the. >> last word. >> calling out. >> the whitewashing. >> of the violence and the. >> crimes that. >> took. >> place that day. >> all those. >> stories and. >> stories and. >> what the biggest companies deliver is an exceptional customer experience. what makes it possible is unmatched connectivity and 5g solutions from t-mobile for business. t-mobile connects 100,000 delta airlines employees, powers tractor supply's stores nationwide with reliable 5g business internet, and partners with pga of america on game changing innovation. this is how business goes further

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>> they're scared. >> they they don't. >> know if they're going. to be able to stay here. you know, a lot of them have been here for decades. they've built their lives here. their kids are here. you know, everyone they know is here. there's a lot of people here that. >> don't have status. >> that keep a lot of the. >> businesses. >> the smaller businesses around here running. >> so if. immigrants leave, i. >> don't know where they're going to find workers as hardworking as some of the immigrants. >> that's an immigration attorney and the daughter of immigrants. on the. >> impact. >> including to our economy and to these families. >> and businesses. >> of trump's mass deportation plans. melissa, let me also play a. school principal on. >> her message to ice. >> and trump and others. >> to the people who are going to be making. >> these decisions about deportations, whether it's mass deportations. >> just broad or targeted, what's your message to them? >> i just. >> i mean. >> come talk. >> to me. come, come meet these

kids. i think, you know, i know there has to be there has to be rules. there has to be checks. there has to be balances. but it can't just be paper. this community of people that have come together, that are here now from all these different countries, all these different places, we can do amazing things if we work together. >> melissa, i'm struck. >> by how many. >> of the lawyers. >> and advocates on the front lines. >> acknowledge that there have to be rules. i'm not talking about lawlessness. we're talking about open borders. you're talking about an absence. >> of. >> a system. we're talking about. >> keeping in mind that these are human beings. >> and moving one. >> human being. from one. >> place to another as a government is challenging. what trump is talking. about is moving millions of. human beings. and i wonder your thoughts on why republicans. >> aren't more. >> interested in. >> the plans and. >> the logistics. >> and if they lifted the ban,

they could. >> go into a school. i hope they don't say they do. what's the plan for feeding them, for teaching them, for vaccinating them? although maybe rfk. >> doesn't want us to do things like that. >> i mean, what is the plan? where do they go and what happens to them? >> well, it's an excellent question whether they plan beyond the immediate cruelty of simply rounding up these individuals and getting them out of the way. you know, it's a really poignant moment for that school principal because he works with those students. he sees them as people. but this is a policy that is fundamentally about not seeing these individuals as individuals, as people just like us. instead, we are being instructed to view them as invaders, people who are here unlawfully, people who have no right to be in, quote unquote, our country. and again, the cruelty is the point of all of this, whether or not they actually succeed in rounding up the numbers of people that they say they will. the point is to drive migrants underground, to

make sure that they are scared and unwilling to live their lives publicly, unwilling to be part of our community so they're not visible. and those who don't want to see them don't want to interact with them, don't have to. they haven't made provisions for what they're going to do with the individuals, that they will round up, how they're going to keep them with their families, how they're going to feed and clothe them, whether or not in their zeal to make sure that no government funds are spent on unlawfully unlawful individuals here in the united states, we are actually going to be spending money to house them, because there's a legal process that will have to be followed to ultimately deport them. and so no one is thinking about that, because that's not the point. the point is simply to make clear who we are and what this country is for and who it is for, and to make clear that it is not for anyone who isn't an american. and, you know, that's where we are right now. and apparently over 50% of the country wants that. >> katie rogers of the new york

times had. >> an interesting. >> bit of reporting during the inaugural live blog, and she wrote. in the rotunda and trump's. >> speech about millions. >> and millions. >> of criminal aliens. >> was the word. >> he used a. >> rotunda full. >> of very white. >> very wealthy people, applauded this idea that. >> there are millions. >> and millions. >> of criminal, criminal, violent, criminal aliens in. >> the country is not the truth. correct. and where you get. 87% public support. >> is when you're. asked the question. >> do you. >> support deporting criminals. >> who have carried out and been convicted. >> of violent crimes? >> i mean, it's 87%. i don't know why it isn't 100. >> let's get rid of the americans who commit violent. >> crimes, too. everyone is for that. >> no. how about we just take 1500 people who were also convicted of crimes, and then we pardon them. and if this is really about criminality, right, then. violence or violent, violent crimes, then, you know, he would have started there. >> it's all a lie. >> right? and so i think part of what you're driving at is it has

to be our responsibility to say, this is a lie. this is the guise under which he is doing that. and to not accept it. you know, we had doctor bernice king on who is a civil rights leader in her own right, also the daughter of martin luther king, because there were a lot of folks, the fact that the inauguration landed on martin luther king day who said, i'm just going to celebrate martin luther king and i'm not going to watch this thing. and she put out this very public plea to say, please pay attention and please stay vigilant. and we had her on the weekend. and one of the things she said that stuck with me and stuck with me in the context of this conversation about immigration, is we often talk about the service and the action of king, but we also have to come from the spirit of king, and that is a spirit of nonviolence. it is a spirit of love. it is a spirit of embracing our beloved community. and so i think one of the things that's important as we talk about this is it's not just about not donald trump. it's not just about not stephen miller. it's about who do we want to be, right? i care about this because i love my community. i love my

neighbor. i want to show up for them. i want to live in a country where you can have both, where the us-mexico border can be a place where we have a free flow of idea of trade. i mean, like, imagine if we thought of the border as this vibrant place where there was possibility and things could happen instead of the narrative that he has put out there. and a lot of folks have stepped into, which is it is simply a place of risk and crime. yes, people want an orderly border process, there is no doubt about that. you are right. when you talk about the polling, i think when you talk about deporting people, if you dig into the numbers, that is not actually what people are saying they want. they want the us-mexico border to work. they want to believe. and the answer to that is not a simple answer. it's not a sexy answer, right? it has to do a lot with investing in home countries. it has a lot to do with making sure that you actually have the infrastructure set up. some of that is judges processing so that people can come in an orderly fashion keeping websites up. just basic. >> basic stuff. >> yeah. >> melissa murray. thank you for starting. >> us off. >> and keeping us honest. >> on all this. >> alicia and david, stick

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hegseth to lead. >> the department of defense, one that. >> with every passing day becomes. >> more and. >> more divorced from reality and facts and truth. that's because even. >> as the senate votes. >> to keep moving forward. >> with him and. advancing his nomination. there appears to be no. >> end in sight to the steady drip of revelations about pete hegseth past. >> breaking. >> last night, two people who. viewed the unredacted affidavit. >> submitted by danielle hegseth. >> pete hegseth. >> sister in law to democratic senator. >> jack reed, told nbc. news about a previously unreported allegation. >> according to. that reporting. >> danielle hegseth. >> says in the. >> affidavit this quote, as i told the fbi. >> samantha once. >> told me that hegseth. >> grabbed her groin without consent. >> at their home. >> samantha told me about this sometime. >> during the years. >> between 2014. >> and 2016. >> i believe what samantha told me. >> because what. >> she told me is consistent with what i personally.

>> observed of. >> this erratic and aggressive. behavior over many years. >> danielle hegseth. >> asserts that she did not witness. >> this alleged incident. >> a lawyer for pete. >> hegseth ex-wife. samantha hegseth. >> did not respond to a request for comment from nbc. >> news about this affidavit, but. >> she previously told nbc news. >> this, quote. >> there was no. >> physical abuse. >> in my marriage. this is the only further statement i will. >> make to you. i have let you know that i. >> am not speaking and will not speak on my. marriage to pete. >> please respect this decision. as for pete. hegseth himself. his attorney told nbc. >> in an email. >> quote. as nbc is well aware, the actual. >> participant, samantha, has denied. >> these false allegations. yet nbc. >> continues to. >> irresponsibly report false. allegations by an uninvolved third party as if they were fact. >> for months now, trump. allies have been chalking. >> up the reporting. >> on the allegations. >> about pete. >> hegseth as personal conduct

and personal. >> life and allegations about his work life. >> including drinking. >> on the job. >> mismanaging the. >> finances of the two. >> small veterans nonprofits that. >> he ran as. >> smears by the media. >> you get these. >> allegations that are aired publicly before they are investigated. >> and allegations. >> are very easy to throw out there, particularly when. they're anonymously sourced. >> you've got anonymous people saying, no, no, it's true. >> but i just don't. >> want to put my name on it. okay, so you're lying. >> after looking through all of the information, all the allegations and. accusations against him by. >> people. >> who are. >> unnamed, if they if there are people at. >> all. one right. >> wing media personality. going so far as. >> to. >> accuse reporters. >> of participating in a, quote, democrat information. >> operation. >> hegseth tried. >> the same tactic. >> at his confirmation hearing last week. >> i'm going to go through a few of them, and i just want you to. >> tell me if these. are true. >> or false. very simple. a

memorial day 2014 at a cva. >> event in. >> virginia. you needed to be carried. >> out of the event for. >> being intoxicated. senator. >> anonymous smears. >> we're going to. >> stop just for a minute. >> because the allegations are. >> just not accurate. they're far more than anonymous. >> smears. according to the new yorker. >> that specific scenario. >> that. >> specific incident, was detailed in a quote seven. page report. >> which was. compiled by multiple. former cva. >> employees and sent to the organization's senior management. >> in february. >> of 2015. nbc news has not seen. >> this report, but. >> according to the. >> new yorker. it says that, quote, at. >> one such cva event in virginia beach on memorial day weekend in 2014. >> hegseth was, quote, totally. sloshed and needed to be carried. >> to his room because he was so intoxicated. let's keep going. >> an event in north carolina drunk in front of three young

female staff members. >> after you had. >> instituted a no alcohol policy and. then reversed it. true or false? anonymous smears. >> it was anonymous last name smears. >> again, but the new yorker. >> reports this quote in october 2014. >> cva that's. >> the group he ran, instituted a. >> no alcohol policy. >> at its events. but the next month. >> according to the report. >> hegseth and another manager. >> lifted the policy. >> while overseeing a. >> get out the vote field operation to boost republican. >> candidates in north carolina. >> quote. >> pete was completely. >> passed out. >> in the middle seat, slumped over, end quote. a young female staff member. the report says it took two male staff members to get headsets into the hotel. >> but there's more. >> you have. >> some. >> of your. >> fox news colleagues here. >> there are multiple instances. >> of accusations against you about drinking on the job. all anonymous, all false, all

refuted by my colleagues who i worked with for ten years at 6. >> a.m. >> to 9 p.m. and everything. >> nbc news is a news organization. reported out a story in which nbc news spoke to ten current and former fox news employees back in december. from that body of reporting, quote, two of those people said that on more than a dozen occasions during his time as. >> a co-host. >> of fox and friends weekend, which began in 2017. >> they smelled alcohol. >> on him before he went on air. one of the sources. said they. smelled alcohol on him as recently as last month, and heard him complain about being hungover. >> this fall. >> at the time the reporting was released, the trump transition team told nbc news that these were unfounded and false allegations. joining our coverage, democratic senator richard blumenthal of connecticut. senator, thank you for joining us. >> i understand. all too well the politics. >> of being a republican in the

time of trump. >> what i. >> want to understand is what. >> it. >> means and what preparations democrats are. >> making to be be there, i guess, for the workforce at the pentagon. on if. someone with all of these. >> allegations against. >> him, all of these. troubling examples. >> of going around the military. >> code of justice, of. >> personal conduct. >> if someone like that is. >> to. >> be confirmed by. >> republicans. how do democrats support the men and women of the armed services? >> great question. >> nicole. >> because we need to look forward. >> if pete hegseth. >> is confirmed. >> about how. >> we maintain. scrutiny and. defend those. >> brave servicemen. >> and women whose. >> lives may be. >> at risk. because of. >> the incompetence and lack. >> of character. >> and remember the. >> latest affidavit. from danielle hegseth is. >> not anonymous. >> it corroborates. >> other allegations. >> but even.

>> if we didn't. >> have this affidavit. >> and we're. >> hoping that maybe there will be more information coming. >> in the next 24 hours. >> what we know already about. >> his lack of character. >> and competence. ought to persuade. >> my republican. >> colleagues to say. >> no. >> as did. >> senator murkowski and senator collins. >> and i'm urging my. >> republican colleagues. >> to. >> read their statements, because what they say. is that what. >> we know already. >> on. >> the public. >> record about. >> his infidelity. >> his sexual improprieties. >> alcohol abuse. >> and maybe most. >> important. financial mismanagement. running into the ground. two veterans. organizations that. >> he headed shows. >> that he lacks the character and competence. >> and i. >> think what it shows is that donald trump is dumbing down the department of defense. and we are going to need to be more active and aggressive and assertive than ever in

protecting those men and women who are putting their lives at risk. literally every day. two of my sons served one as a combat infantry officer in afghanistan, and the other is a navy seal. and i know it affects not just them, but their families. and i'm worried also about our veterans, because donald trump has imposed a hiring freeze that affects veterans, health care and veterans benefits. and it just shows how little donald trump cares about our servicemen and women. we're going to have to make up for it. >> senator. what? pete hegseth, sister. >> in law describes is domestic violence. >> and the alleged victim. >> and she does. >> so in a sworn affidavit under penalty. of perjury. is that in the hands of all of the republican members of. >> the committee considering his nomination? >> it is accessible to them, in effect, in their hands? i hope that every single one of my republican colleagues has read this material and more that is

available to us through the armed services committee. but here's the other point that i think is very important. this affidavit shows how inadequate the fbi background investigation was, because it demonstrates that they failed to follow up and pursue leads and information that could be even more disqualifying. what we know already. again, i hate to repeat, it would be disqualifying to a member of the armed services seeking a promotion within the armed services that adultery and infidelity and some of the blatant misbehavior would be disqualifying. but i hope they'll read what's available. >> senator, one of the things that pete hegseth and his attorneys. >> seem to be. >> hanging their hat. >> on is the denial of. >> quote. >> physical violence on the part. >> of the alleged victim. have you. >> considered bringing in experts on domestic. violence to explain to the republican

members that that denial is very consistent with the. conduct of a victim of domestic violence? >> we've considered and we've sought and we've reached out in a variety of ways. and to be very blunt, i think that that trump pressure campaign has been so relentless and powerful that my republican colleagues are loathe to open their eyes or ears to evidence, whether it's from experts or other witnesses, witnesses that could provide a perspective that they need to consider about domestic violence, about alcohol dependency, even addiction, which can't be denied by someone who is suffering from it without that person being in peril of even greater harm or doing greater harm. and then, of course, the financial mismanagement. so i think that we have tried in a variety of ways to bring more information

to their attention. but donald trump and the threat of primaries, of donor cutoffs, of other kinds of pressure has been very persuasive. >> senator. >> have you. >> considered what you, as a united states senator on the committee, considering his nomination, would say to victims of sex assault in the military, if that problem, if that epidemic gets worse under the leadership of someone who. is accused of an alleged rape. >> that is such a critical question because a number of us, like senator gillibrand and myself, have waged a campaign over a decade to persuade the military to be more assertive in combating sexual assault, in punishing it, in adopting new ways and systems to investigate and pursue wrongdoing involving criminal sexual assault and

harassment. and what i would say to the victims is that the secretary of defense may seem to be betraying you, but the department of defense is a big institution, and there are men and women who are dedicated to rooting out and deterring sexual assault because it is essential to our national defense that they be successful in doing so. it's essential to recruitment and retaining good officers and enlisted women. they're 18% right now of our military. they are so important in the skills and perspectives and diligence and dedication that they bring. we need to retain them. and what i would say to any potential victim of sexual assault, come forward and let us know. let us,

members of the armed services know the committee and let me know, as the chairman of the or the ranking member of the permanent subcommittee on investigation, because we'll investigate it and we'll try to bring it out and raise awareness and bring it to light. >> it's a sad state. >> i mean, it's a generous offer. >> but it's a sad state that it has. >> to even sound somewhat subversive. >> i have. >> one more quick question for you. anyone who's been. >> touched by the struggles that a lot of veterans. >> have when they come. >> back. >> specifically from. >> combat. it can range from ptsd. >> to addiction to alcohol abuse, and any of those things can contribute to the kind of some of the kinds. >> of behaviors. >> alleged against mr. hegseth. >> what are your concerns about someone. >> leaving the department and. >> making sure to continue. >> to lead and support. veterans who come home and are struggling. >> with ptsd?

>> we voted today in the veterans affairs committee to approve doug collins as the next secretary, and he's indicated he is going to care about mental health and make it a priority, especially veteran suicide. and we asked him very specifically about sexual assault. this area of veterans care is so critical, and that is why i am so angry about the application of a hiring freeze to our va health care system, which provides the kind of care and treatment those veterans need for ptsd, for sexual assault, trauma, for all of the other physical treatment that is necessary. failing to fill the openings for the doctors, the nurses for the veterans benefits and disability benefits that are needed is a real betrayal of our veterans.

and so i am going to press as hard as possible. doug collins, everybody at the va, and of course at the department of defense, where transition is so important. but anybody who has suffered from these problems should know that there is care. and we're going to we're going to keep fighting. we're going to fight as hard as we can. >> it's just amazing. >> that this too, has. become infected with our politics. >> senator blumenthal, thank you so much. >> we'll continue to. >> turn. >> to you. >> thanks for spending time. >> thanks for spending time. >> with us if you're living with dry amd, you may be at risk for developing geographic atrophy, or ga. ga can be unpredictable—and progress rapidly—leading to irreversible vision loss. now there's something you can do to... ♪ ( slow. it. down.) ♪ ♪ ( get it goin' slower.)♪ ask your doctor about izervay. ♪ (i. zer. vay.) ♪ ♪ ( gets ga goin' slower.) ♪ izervay is an eye injection. don't take it if you have an infection or active

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(vo) ding dong! homes-dot-com. we've done your home work. confirmed. i was looking for a party line vote, which would be an indictment of donald trump and hegseth. we don't see those in secdef confirmations. but now maybe murkowski and collins join the democrats. i think if you wrap together all the stories today, there are millions of americans right now who just think the heart of the country is broken. i mean, a week or two ago, we were talking about jimmy carter and progressive evangelism and the peacemaker and lifting up marginalized communities. we saw the words of the bishop at national cathedral about the least among us. but with trump's immigration policy that we were talking about, he's just punching down and kicking the least among us and saying, we don't want you. and when it comes to the his actual administration, pete hegseth and others, it's like the death of expertise. he's saying, we don't want subject matter experts. we

don't want people who are qualified. and so the heartbreak of so many people who oppose donald trump this week, it's not just about partizanship. it's that they see the country broken right now and broken because of the hands of donald trump. >> i'll take the tying of those two stories one step further. the proclamation, the national emergency at the us-mexico border. right. so what it does is it authorizes who? the secretary of defense to move money within dod to fund the constructing of the border wall and to call up reservists. there is u.s. code 276, which says that type of support from the military can only be given to civilian law enforcement. if the secretary of defense has determined that it does not undermine military preparedness. so all the things he wants to do, he can only do if he has these loyalists installed, and it sometimes is not even you wouldn't think of the secretary of defense as being involved in immigration, but he and his administration have constructed it. so it is all of a piece.

>> well, and if you want to understand. how bad are they? i mean, there are plenty of people like tom. >> cotton agrees. >> with trump. >> on policy, but. >> probably an open question how much of that he would have done. and that's how we arrived at pete hegseth. alicia and david. thank you for spending the. >> hour with us. >> there's much more. >> we're only halfway there. continued blowback. >> from donald trump's january 6th pardons the next hour 6th pardons the next hour deadline. white when the time comes to act. are you all in for the things that really matter? i am all in for racial justice. i'm all in for voting rights. i'm all in for women's rights. i'm all in for civil rights. the time is now to stand up for a future you believe in. to be all in for the rights of black communities across the u.s.. to keep advancing the future we envision for the america we love. you can do it now by supporting the naacp®. call or go online now to become a

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>> who stormed the capitol on january 6th. he made this very. clear on january 7th, 2021. anyone pretending to. >> be outraged and shocked and. >> surprised, you just haven't been paying attention. >> that, of. >> course, is harry dunn. >> hi again everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. >> donald trump's. >> first administration. began with one. >> of his top. >> aides claiming. >> that there are. >> such things on this. earth as. >> alternate facts. >> and now he begins his. second with a. >> complete and utter whitewashing. >> of a truth we. >> all saw play. >> out over many hours with our own eyes on every station of television in this country. and that is the insurrection. when a mob of his supporters angrily and violently stormed the united states capitol on january 6th. trump's immediate pardoning of the nearly 1600 january 6th defendants sending a clear message that, in. >> his view. >> no one did anything wrong. >> but there. >> are some who are making.

>> sure that. >> the history of that day. >> the facts of that day. >> are not erased. the federal judges who. >> oversaw the. >> trials and sentencing of the insurrectionists. u.s. district. >> judge beryl howell. >> writes in a new order that trump's administration's move to dismiss these cases is wrong regarding the. case of two defendants who. >> pleaded guilty. >> to throwing smoke bombs. >> at officers. >> she writes this, quote, no national injustice. >> occurred here. >> just as no outcome determinative election fraud occurred in the 2020 presidential election. no process of national reconciliation can begin when. poor losers whose preferred candidate loses an election. >> are glorified for. >> disrupting a constitutionally mandated proceeding in congress and doing so with impunity. and judge howell is not alone. a stunning rebuke of the trump administration's pardons coming from judge tanya chutkan as well. >> she's the judge. >> overseeing donald trump's own

election interference case. >> before it. >> was dismissed. >> listen to her words as we watch what happened. >> that day. from the point. >> of view of officers. >> body cameras. but donald trump and the republican party are trying. >> to tell. >> you never even happened. quote, while a pardon exercises the. executive's exclusive authority and absolute. discretion to decide whether. >> to prosecute. >> a. >> case. >> it does not necessarily render innocent a defendant of. any alleged violation of the law. >> more broadly. >> no pardon can change the. tragic truth of what happened on january 6th, 2021. >> on that day. >> a mob professing. >> support for. >> then-president trump violently attacked the united. >> states capitol to stop. >> the electoral college certification. the dismissal. >> of this case. >> cannot undo the rampage that left multiple people. >> dead and injured.

>> more than 140. people and inflicted millions. >> of dollars. >> in damage. it cannot diminish. >> the heroism of. >> law enforcement. officers who. struggled facing serious injury and even. >> death. >> to control the mob that overwhelmed them. it cannot whitewash. >> the blood, feces and terror. >> that the mob left in its. >> wake, and. >> it cannot repair. >> the jagged. >> breach in america's sacred tradition of peacefully transitioning power. in hundreds of cases like this one over the past. >> four. >> years, judges in this district have administered justice without. >> fear or favor. >> the historical. >> record established by these. >> proceedings must stand. unmoved by political winds, as a testament and as a warning. that was judge tanya chutkan writing the revisionism effort reaching a whole new level. this morning, former metropolitan police

officer michael fanone, a friend of this show who suffered. >> a heart. >> attack and a traumatic brain injury. >> after being brutally attacked. >> by. >> rioters, told our colleague ryan riley that he spoke. >> with his victim. >> service advocates. >> at doj trying to get restraining orders against the rioters who nearly killed him. the service advocates, he said, refused to give him information on his assailants that would help him secure those restraining orders, telling him that from the new perspective of the new justice department, quote, you are. >> no longer a victim. >> that's where we start the hour. some of our favorite reporters in france, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst glenn kirschner, is here. also joining us, former u.s. attorney and. former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman is here. and my. >> colleague. >> nbc news justice reporter, author of sedition hunters how january 6th broke the justice system. brian rallies back. ryan, you had that reporting on michael fanone. tell us more. >> yeah, he gave me a call this morning to inform me of that

conversation. and, you know, i think there's two things here. you know, under the way this process typically works is that when doj has these victims, you know, these are victim service advocates, so they accompany them to court. the six different hearings, the sentencing hearings that mike fanone has attended, the last and final one of which he attended on friday. i accompanied him to the courthouse there. they've been they've been they're there alongside him. they've been they've been with him. and, you know, under their protocols there, when there's an active case or when there's an ongoing case, that's when they are helping the victims in that case. and that applies to any case, not just with officers, with any of the cases that the justice department prosecutes in the u.s. attorney's office prosecutes. but now that those cases are over and have been and they have dismissed them, and in fact, the justice department has tried to dismiss those cases with prejudice under the leadership of the interim u.s. attorney, who advocated for january 6th defendants before he was appointed to this position and served on the board of an organization which advocated for

january 6th defendants and spoke at the capitol before the january 6th attack on january 5th. himself, has been trying to move for those dismissals with prejudice, so they are trying to kill these cases. they are trying to kill, i think, the history of it. and when you talk about them telling mike fanone, you are no longer a victim, even though in there, in there, that sort of makes sense why they would say that in their category, because, you know, under their process, he is no longer a victim. you can't help but hear the really orwellian language there, right? like, you are no longer a victim. you know, it's just this revisionism of history. i think that we're trying to see that there's just a ton of right now. >> glenn, you know. >> judge tanya chutkan, she clearly was writing on the specifics, but also for history. a real warning from her. >> yeah. >> i know her. >> courtesy of. >> trying murder cases against her years ago in. >> the. >> courts of washington, d.c,

when she was a public defender and a really remarkable public. >> defender. >> i would say. >> i would say she was a worthy adversary. >> i hope i was. >> a worthy adversary. >> as a homicide prosecutor to. >> tanya chutkan. but. >> you know, i. >> take all. >> of this. >> that's going on with. >> these pardons. >> really personally. >> now, not as personally as harry dunn. >> mike fanone, aquilino. >> gonell, daniel hodges. >> caroline edwards and the. 135 other. >> police officers who were. >> attacked and. beaten and. >> assaulted, who. >> i. guess the. department of justice. >> believes are no longer victims. but but i take it. personally. because i know the. >> prosecutors who investigated and prosecuted. >> these cases, i had the. >> opportunity to cover. >> the. >> trials for msnbc. >> as a legal analyst. >> the oath. >> keepers trials. >> the proud boys trials. and i would watch my. >> former colleagues, many of whom were my. homicide prosecutors when i was chief. >> of homicide at. >> the d.c. u.s. attorney's

office. >> several were. >> my trial partners. >> i tried murder cases. >> with some. >> of these prosecutors. >> and to see. >> donald trump. >> who thinks. he can just with the with the. >> stroke of. >> a pen. >> whitewash. >> all of this. it's so. >> disrespectful of. >> not just. >> the victims, first and foremost. >> the. >> victims. >> but all. >> of the. >> fbi agents and investigators who investigated these. >> crimes. >> all of the prosecutors. >> and. >> the staff. >> at the u.s. attorney's office that was involved in. 1500 prosecutions. >> the grand. >> juries, which, nicole, i don't think we have paid enough attention to the grand juries. that sat behind closed doors confidentially. >> and heard. >> all of the evidence for. all 1500. >> plus of the. >> defendants who. >> ultimately went to. >> court, many of them, if. not most. >> of them pleading guilty. do you know. >> we run about. 5 to 7 grand

juries. >> at a. >> time in the. courts of washington. d.c. that's both local superior court and. >> federal court. >> but because. >> of our unusual. >> jurisdiction. >> those grand juries cross-pollinate. so the local grand juries. >> can indict. >> federal cases. >> and. >> the federal grand juries. can indict local cases. >> and do you know. if a grand. >> jury indicts 8 or 10 or 12 or 20 cases, that is 16 to 23 individuals, citizens from the district. >> of columbia. >> who sit. >> there for months and months hearing all of the evidence in those ten, 15, 20 cases, multiply that by 1500 cases. you know, the district of. >> columbia population. is only about 680,000. >> how many tens of. thousands of grand jurors sat in those. >> you know, closed. >> door grand jury sessions from 930 in the morning to. 430 in the afternoon, watching all of the evidence and hearing from all of the witnesses and the victims. of what these defendants did at the u.s.

capitol on january 6th. >> and they. >> those thousands and thousands of people must be asking themselves, what was my grand jury service for? what was it worth? i mean, the sort of not only the danger to. >> society that. these pardons represent. >> but the undermining, the corrosive effect of what donald trump has just done. i mean, it spreads far and wide in ways that i don't even know we can fathom at this moment. >> harry litman it's going to play out before our very. eyes. >> whereas three months ago, donald trump was a candidate for president, aligning himself with the insurrectionists. he's now a sitting president who just pardoned people convicted of committing the violent crimes, of assaulting police officers. and the words of hakeem jeffries, violent felons who brutally. >> beat police. >> officers on january 6th. what

does that mean for efforts to fight against violence moving forward? >> yeah, it's a. >> it's a body blow. i think it's galling. repugnant, really. >> the worst. >> betrayal of the constitution by any president in our history. i, i agree with everything glenn says, itemizing the victims. but the number one victim here, i really think, and this is what makes it so pernicious, is society, the constitution, the general principle, as judge chutkan emphasized, of the peaceful transfer of power. that was a direct assault that, as you say. >> nicole. >> we all. saw and that is now again in judge ward eight. they're trying to whitewash away all. the terror. >> feces. >> blood and the like. >> and so. >> i think, you know, it's a terrible effect. and exactly

what pardons are not supposed to be violent offenders who emerge triumphant. but the general now glorification not just of the 1500, but of what happened on january 6th and the attempt to completely erase it from history. >> i really agree. >> with ryan's invocation of orwell here and the. >> the really. >> deep. corrosive effect of essentially trying as, as trump has been obsessive about to wipe it out. that's why i really thought that both howl and chuck can hit it dead on, because they when you push hard on a trump kind of initiative, there's always a lie. there's always a lie. and here the lie that there are several, but especially that these are heroes and patriots. they they saw them firsthand, as did their colleagues for four years. and they that's they

found, you know, completely antithetical to what was before them. but generally the now triumph of the idea and tarrio. >> and. >> others came came out absolutely triumphant and ready to, you know, come back to, to kick some in the teeth. some of trump's opponents. there's just nothing more sort of galling and revolting for the whole constitutional principle that was so deeply violated of the peaceful transfer of power. >> i've got a couple of things. >> i want to. show all. >> of you. let me start. >> with danielle hodges, one of the officers. his comments last night. >> it was kind of surreal on inauguration day, having all these people wearing maga hats, they saw me and they saw my uniform. they recognized who i was, and they thanked me for my service. and it reminded me of january 6th, 2021, because on

that morning they thanked me for my service to. and once they went to the capitol, they didn't thank me anymore. they called me a traitor, telling me to remember my oath. i was beaten. crushed, kicked, punched, surrounded, and all these people were just pardoned by donald trump, who says that they were the real victims, that they were the patriots. >> it's hard to. >> watch ryan rally. but i'm not even sure that on trump's side of the disinformation spectrum, on the experience. >> of the blue is conveyed. >> just talk about this sort. >> of post-truth, post-fact.

>> moment in american politics. >> yeah, i mean, that's been one of the frustrations, i think, over these past four years. and i've been thinking a ton about this because why didn't this break through? and i think there are obviously just structural reasons. obviously fox news isn't going to show a lot of that really awful video, because it would just undermine the story that they're trying to tell. but, you know, there's a lot of reasons, i think, why this didn't break through. but it really it really didn't. but i think a big component of this was the mis and disinformation. and not only did mis and disinformation cause january 6th itself by convincing millions of people that the election was stolen when it wasn't. it caused, i think it allowed. it created the environment that led to these pardons, because there was so much just garbage in the air. there was so much, so much internet garbage in the air. i mean, it's something i just feel like i did a bunch of time on fire over the past four years, having to respond to a lot of it because, you know, you heard these things about antifa and you heard these things about the f, you know, the fbi. or maybe it was the fbi working with antifa and just and then that, you know, went from the worst

parts of the internet and very quickly made its way into the caucus in the house. and then, you know, in the senate, you know, you had member of congress mike lee suggest that he wanted to ask the fbi director about someone he thought was an undercover agent because a guy walked out and flashed something. he thought it was a badge. it turns out the guy was holding was was holding a basically a vape pen. so this was someone who was in jail, right. and he's suggesting this was an undercover officer. it was just the amount of garbage that i think you had to respond to was so overwhelming and really overwhelm the system. and you see that when you when people, you know, you ask people about these videos and they just haven't seen a lot of these footage, they think that this was a bunch of grannies who walked into who were led into the white or led into the capitol by capitol police, and they opened the door for them and walked in with their little picket signs. that's what they think this is, because that's all they've seen. they haven't seen the truth of what happened. and i think that's one of the frustrations that a lot of people have. i've been talking with a lot of the prosecutors who work these cases, and one of

the most painful things that reminded me of sort of what daniel hodges was talking about there in terms of, you know, he he wasn't only getting emotional about the physical assault that he took that day. he was also getting emotional about someone telling him that he didn't follow his oath. and these are and, you know, these are prosecutors who weren't in the physical battle in the way that that daniel hodges was. but they've been in the battle over the truth for this for four years. i mean, they've been vindicating those victims who were brutalized. and what they had to do this week was file motions to dismiss. i had one individual who had to file that who, you know, this was a case that was beyond a reasonable doubt. there is no there's no doubt of the facts of what happened. they had to file this, and they said it was torturous for them to have to file that, but they felt like that was what they were called upon to do. and remember, this is after they busted the entire unit. the entire capitol siege unit is now is now gone. that no longer exists. those websites or websites are gone. they no longer exist. so you're going to have all of these outside websites. but the official record of the us government, the.gov is there's just a ton of

erasure going on right now. they're trying to wipe the record clean. they no longer care about those 200 people who have been identified as assailants on law enforcement officers and the victims in those cases who know who will never get justice. because even though there's almost a year left in the statute of limitations, they're no longer going to be bringing charges. and they and there's no record on the website of the real violence that we saw and the listings that we saw of all of the cases that they had brought, it just seems that they're going through this and erasing this history. >> racing the truth. i want to pull the thread forward and press all of you on why that would be. and we don't have to guess. folks like enrique tarrio. and others have been very public about what they plan to. >> do. >> and it's under the category of trump's favorite topic, retribution. we have to sneak in a break. we'll have much more on that, as.

>> well as. >> the revisionism around the january 6th insurrection. also ahead for us, donald trump putting yet another former member of his innermost circle in potential grave. physical danger in the face of ongoing threats from iran. it is more of. his campaign of retribution against. >> allies all across the political divide. >> including his own former innermost circle already underway. >> just days into his. >> presidency deadline. white >> presidency deadline. white house “the darkness of bipolar depression made me feel like i was losing interest in the things i love. then i found a chance to let in the lyte.” discover caplyta. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta is proven to deliver significant symptom relief from both bipolar i & ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. caplyta can cause serious side effects. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. anti-depressants may increase these risks in young adults.

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>> calm. download the free. app now! >> stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the msnbc daily newsletter. each morning you'll get analysis by experts you trust, video highlights from your favorite shows, previews of our podcasts and documentaries, plus written perspectives from the newsmakers themselves. sign up for msnbc daily at msnbc. com. >> we're back. >> with glenn harry and ryan glenn. this is the latest

reporting in the washington post about the retribution planned by the insurrectionists. quote enrique tarrio called into infowars.com, the web stream hosted by pro-trump conspiracy theorist alex jones. hours after his tuesday release, and claimed to be the victim of a campaign to put trump supporters in prison. he called for imprisoning biden attorney general merrick garland for corruption, to, quote, give him a taste of his own medicine. the people who did this, they need to feel the heat. they need to be put behind bars, and they need to be prosecuted, tarrio said. success is going to be retribution. reuters has some reporting, glenn, that it gets a lot. >> darker. >> deeper down the right wing media rabbit hole. >> if you will quote. >> on the pro-trump website, patriots win. at least two dozen people expressed hopes for executions of democrats, judges or law enforcement linked to the january 6th cases. they called for jurists or police to be hanged, pummeled to death,

ground up in wood chippers or thrown from helicopters. quote gathered the entire federal judiciary into a stadium, then have them listen and watch while the judges are beaten to death. one wrote. cut their heads off and put them on pikes outside the justice department. i don't read this to replatform them. i don't read. >> this to scare people. >> i read this to ask you with the erasure of the victims crimes, with the refusal to provide information so that the actual victims can obtain restraining orders. where are we? how far along the process are we in unraveling the rule of law? >> oh. >> nicole, it feels like donald trump is attempting to usher in an age of governmental lawlessness in america, where we're going to be out for blood. >> for retribution. >> and retaliation for those fbi agents, prosecutors, and others

who were given an assignment by their superiors. a righteous assignment. a lawful assignment, a democracy saving assignment to hold accountable the folks who attacked the capitol and in a very real sense, attack the democratic process, the peaceful transfer of power. we're going to. >> now go. >> after them. we're going to investigate them. we're going to, you know, hang them from the highest tree. what remains to be seen is how much. of this dystopian agenda will donald trump's department of justice try to implement his attorney general? in the event pam bondi is confirmed? i mean, his director of the fbi? hopefully people with enemies lists and merch shops are not going to be the next director of the fbi. but you know what donald trump has done with these pardons, among other things, is he's using them, i believe, as a

recruiting tool. and this is stand back and stand by writ. >> large. >> because if donald trump conjures up some lawlessness tomorrow and he needs. a violent and unhinged militia. called out to do his, you know, lawless bidding, just like he did on january 6th, that was a trump production from start to finish. and he thinks the pardons can perhaps, you know, erase the fact that he called them the dc. he said, let's make. >> it wild. >> he said, fight like hell. you want to have a country anymore. he said, go to the capitol and stop the certification. he used the word steal, which shows his corrupt intent because he knew it wasn't stolen. but you know, if he needs this again in the future, it feels to me like he's got thousands potentially of people 1500 pardoned another, i think 400 plus having their pretrial cases dismissed, sort of standing back and standing by and ready to get out into the

streets and do it all over again. i fear maybe it will. be at a pro-democracy anti-trump protest. who knows? but, you know, this is donald trump trying to usher in the age of governmental lawlessness and apparently retaliation. >> i keep thinking. >> harry, about this. there's a horror of. >> it, all right, that you can't look away from. >> there's the. >> the absolute insane fabrication. >> of it. all right. what you saw. >> happen before your eyes, including on fox news on live tv, didn't really happen. >> and then there's. >> there's the incompetence and the stupidity of it all, which is always sort of an uncomfortable bedfellow to pure evil and sort of dystopian revisionism. >> but yet. >> j.d. vance on a sunday show, the incoming vice president of the. united states, who ostensibly trump's going to ask to represent him on the world

stage, he said the opposite, right? j.d. vance goes on a sunday show two days before they do this and says. >> no. >> we would never, ever. >> ever, ever, ever. >> pardon the violent ones. and trump, according to axios, says, quote, f it, release them all. i mean. >> you already. >> have a top of the ticket, completely disconnected one from the. >> other in terms of what's. >> going to happen. and things. that frankly. >> impact the last. >> guy to be vice president mike pence. >> i wonder what it reveals about the out. >> of the loop. >> ness of j.d. vance. >> yeah, i actually read it a little differently because remember, bondi did the same thing. i think they were taking talking points. no way he goes on national tv. no way. in her nomination hearing, she says the same thing unless they were told, here's the line you take and the and the recent report is trump at the end. just saying f it. do them all. you know and remember. and until these pardons, trump's attempts were to prevaricate and emphasize

what i said peacefully, i didn't mean any of this. he tried to suggest that they were, you know, had gone awry. now the very opposite. now he is glorifying as he rose the very violence that that they undertook. i resisted for a long time analogies to hitler's germany i've got in my substack today, though it's really uncanny. the same episode where hitler, early in his tenure, before he's totally taken over the government, some local prosecutors go after his brownshirts and they convict them, sends them, and then he releases them. it's really the same thing, the declaration that my will service to me. that's what matters. nothing about law. and it wasn't until these pardons that trump has basically gone all out and saying, you damn right f it. all of these guys are heroes. and that's who

my government is now. and i think that was his sole decision. and at the end of the process, otherwise vance and bondi wouldn't have said what they said. >> an unbelievably sobering series of analyzes from all of you. thank you so much for starting us off. ryan riley, glenn kirshner, and harry lippman. when we come back, donald trump stripping away the security detail, the security protection for. another former inner circle member, former cabinet member. and that is despite a very real and ongoing threat from iran. this former secretary of state, his former cia director, mike pompeo. we'll cia director, mike pompeo. we'll bring you that story alice loves the scent of gain so much, she wished there was a way to make it last longer. say hello to your fairy godmother alice, and long-lasting gain scent beads. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain.

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(800) 378-9643. call now. >> the iranian. >> regime will have to be dealt with by president trump. i am. confident he will go back to a model which tries. >> to. >> get to a better outcome. a new. sheriff in town, a. >> new leader in just. >> under four weeks. >> now. >> will make an enormous. >> amount of difference. >> so that sound. that praise. >> for donald trump? that's from four weeks ago and it's from mike pompeo. you may remember him from trump's first term. he was first the cia director, then the secretary of state. but my what a difference four weeks makes. pompeo up. >> until yesterday, today had. >> been receiving briefings and had a security detail to protect him because of ongoing threats on his life from iran, because of his role in the soleimani hit, that security detail was

put in place by the biden administration and stayed in place despite his praise for trump and attacks on biden. it has been. >> revoked. >> though, that clip. and on that, theprotectior secretary of state, mike pompeo, and a former. top aide, brian. >> hook. >> despite warnings from the biden administration that both men faced ongoing threats from iran because because of actions they took on trump's behalf, four people with knowledge of the matter said thursday. the new york times report that the reports. >> that the security. >> details were. >> pulled tuesday. >> just a day after trump's former national security adviser and critic, john bolton. but pompeo. had remained publicly supportive of trump. so the question is why. >> put his life in danger? >> let's bring in former. >> cia director. >> now senior national security analyst john brennan and new york times diplomatic

correspondent michael crowley. michael crowley on the reporting. my understanding is that this group of former senior national security officials, including donald trump himself, but also his then chairman of the joint chiefs, mark milley. mike pompeo, who was secretary of state at the time, john bolton was related to or the intelligence stream at. least related to, a pledge for retribution from iran over the strike that killed soleimani in iraq. is that correct? >> yeah, that's our understanding. >> i mean. >> after that strike, which. >> was devastating. >> for iran. >> both in. >> terms of costing. >> them a critical. >> military and. >> strategic leader. >> but also. >> completely humiliating. following that. >> iran did very little to retaliate. there was a strike against a u.s. military base. >> that. >> certainly did injure. >> american soldiers who had concussions. >> but in relative. >> terms. >> it was a pretty. >> mild response. >> so i think the. >> iranians do. >> not feel like they've. >> had anything.

>> remotely like compensatory payback. >> and so the. >> protection that was afforded to pompeo and bolton by president joe biden was in relation to an assessment that they faced ongoing threats of retribution from iran. >> that's right. >> this is. >> not a hypothetical speculative thing. this is the assessment of. >> intelligence agencies. >> you know, it's based on specific information. and it's not just people wringing. >> their hands or. >> coming up with. some vague scenarios. and briefly, nicole, let. me play anecdotally, i can say that i was. >> in. >> a washington restaurant a couple of years ago when mike pompeo showed up. it looked like he was going to a private event in a in a private room in the restaurant. and i was gobsmacked by the size of his security detail. again, this is he was a former secretary of state. >> at this. >> point, and he had a retinue of people who looked like they were bodyguards and security men. that was, you know, if anything, larger than what you

might expect a. sitting secretary of state to have. i mean, there were multiple big black suburbans, a. >> bunch of. guys and. >> women with the earpieces talking to each other just for him to go out to a restaurant. so this was they were taking this very seriously, obviously. >> and soleimani. >> still dead and iran is still mad. >> about that. >> so the threat ostensibly hasn't changed. >> so why. >> does trump strip the security detail from pompeo. >> hook. >> and bolton? michael crowley. >> nicole, we don't we don't know for sure. and like so. >> many things. >> with. >> donald trump, it's very hard to know exactly what's going. >> on. >> in his head. and this. >> one is a little bit. >> complicated, because these three men are all different figures. they are on different places. if you try. >> to imagine. >> the a spectrum for trump of where he sees them in terms of allies or foes, he you know, he has openly feuded with. >> john. >> bolton for years, who has publicly denounced trump, called him. >> unfit for. >> office, you know, said he should not have been president. so, you know, he clearly, very much dislikes john bolton and

mike pompeo. and he had a pretty good relationship when he was president. pompeo wavered a little bit. i forget the details as i'm sitting here. but after january 6th and the 2020 election, pompeo was not fully on board with trump's claims of election fraud and was not among those. >> who were. >> defending the january 6th riot. as i recall, brian hook is the biggest mystery here. brian, to my knowledge, has not spoken out, been critical of president trump in any notable way. there's been a little bit of speculation that brian, he went on tv and spoke a little bit about what he thought trump's approach to iran would be after the election, including saying he would adopt maximum pressure. >> against iran and. >> maybe he got a little far over his skis, but it's really not much to go on. so that's a big question mark. >> director brennan, we, the pompeo hook pieces are more confounding and. >> more recent.

>> turns for trump. but in the in the sort of slice of your world of the intelligence community, let me share this reporting with you from the wall street journal, quote, how tucker carlson killed mike pompeo's hopes of joining the trump administration. the day before the election, trump praised mike pompeo during a campaign rally, marveling at his recent. >> weight loss. >> and twice calling him handsome. but to tucker carlson, the former fox news host who continues to have deep influence in conservative circles, mike pompeo was a risky pick. tucker carlson argued that he's a warmonger. carlson highlighted to the president elect a list of grievances he holds against mike pompeo, including what he said was an alleged plot by the then secretary of state to assassinate wikileaks founder julian assange, according to multiple people with knowledge of tucker carlson's efforts, tucker carlson went public with the allegations about mike pompeo and assange. in an april interview on joe rogan's podcast, pointing to a 2021 yahoo news story. if you're a

foreign government and you're. trying to assess spheres of influence, what do the pompeo hook sort of casting them out, ostracizing them, what do they signal? >> well. >> nicole, i think. >> they. >> signal several things. one is that this decision by donald trump is consistent with other decisions he's made, which have been reckless and. quite capricious. and so it demonstrates that he doesn't give sufficient thought to making these rather significant decisions. there's no way that there could have been some type of new review and assessment of the nature. >> of the. >> security threat. to mike pompeo and brian hook in. >> just the last. >> you know. >> 72 hours, 48 hours. >> and this decision was made. >> very early on. >> the appropriate thing to do would be to ask. agencies to come up with an assessment about the nature of that threat. but by all. reporting and accounts, the nature of that iranian threat is still quite active. as michael pointed out. i believe the

iranians don't feel as though they have sufficiently retaliated at all for the death, the assassination of qassem soleimani. so i think the signal it sends to a lot of our friends and partners overseas is that donald trump is going to continue to do things. just because he feels as though he can do it. this is, i think, demonstrating his way of just saying i am going to be the decision maker, irrespective of whether or not the facts support those decisions. so again, i think it's just, again, consistent with a lot of the things that we've seen over the last 72 hours in terms of what donald trump has decided. >> i want to. >> ask all of you how. >> how we protect people who i don't agree with pompeo on, on, on much of anything. >> but i have. >> deep fear and anxiety. the thought of him not being protected from a foreign threat. i want to ask you how we protect i want to ask you how we protect our fellow citizens. i have to i'll be honest. by the end of the day, my floors...yeesh. but who has the time to clean? that's why i love my swiffer wetjet. it's a quick and easy way to get my floors clean.

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and working hard to prevent recruitment into extremist groups throughout the united states. together, we can push back against this wave of hate and extremism. become a friend of the center today. call or go online to helpfighthate.org right now. director brennan, you had a security clearance until trump revoked the security clearances of yours and a handful of other ex-intelligence officials. is that is that accurate? is that reporting in cbs accurate? >> yes. that's what the executive order says. that revoked our clearances. 51 individuals who signed a letter related to russian information operations. it was the same executive order that withdrew or

suspended john bolton's security clearances as well. >> and there's. >> also reporting that trump plans to rush security clearances for individuals without the standard fbi background checks. why would he be stripping clearances from professionals who've served in democratic and republican administrations, who retain them simply to be of service in a national security crisis and giving them to people who aren't investigated? >> that's an excellent question, but it's consistent, again, with donald trump's actions and behavior over the years that he has total disregard for classified information, and he didn't treat it respectfully when he was during his first term. and now granting clearances to individuals who don't have those background checks. i think it just opens the door to real concerns on the broader part of the intelligence community that people now are going to be having access to this, who do not know how to handle it, do not know how to treat it. and it's certainly

giving a green light to our foreign adversaries to send people into the states and try to get into trump's orbit so that they can gain access to this information that is so vital to our national security. so again, he's he sees the professionals and the intelligence community and the law enforcement community and the homeland security community as threats. and he's doing everything possible to undermine the professionalism and the legitimacy of those communities. and he's bringing in a lot of people who feel like he does, which is destroying the institutions of government that have really kept this country strong and secure over the past, you know, 200 some odd years. >> michael crowley, in your. >> reporting, do. >> you come across any republicans who are able to connect any of these dots in a way that gives them any pause on voting for tulsi gabbard, removing security clearances designed to protect republicans from iran, taking away security clearances from former intelligence officials from democratic and republican presidential administrations,

tulsi gabbard being the head of the dni, tucker carlson as a detractor of mike pompeo, resulting in his being ostracized from trump's inner circle. and, as you said, the mystery surrounding brian hook. >> you know, nicole, i think. >> that. >> tulsi gabbard has gotten a lot less. >> attention than. >> some. >> of the other nominees. >> but i think that there's a. special sort of disquiet about that choice because of the way she would have access to really some of the crown jewel secrets of the united states, of our intelligence community, and particularly at a time when america is in conflict with russia. and she's been an outlier in terms of her views toward russia and the way she talks about vladimir putin and what motivates him. she's entitled to those views, and many of them are shared by president trump. but president trump is still not in sync with,

i think, probably the center of gravity of his party when it comes to russia, when it comes to standing up to putin's aggression. and i think there's just real disquiet about letting someone like tulsi gabbard have a position that is so fundamental to that conflict. in particular, so much of our struggle against russia involves intelligence, involves covert activities. and i just think when you take number one, her views which which i think a lot of republicans believe to be pretty fringe. and number two, her lack of experience in this realm. and i think a lot of people question her judgment. that's a very that's a very combustible mix. and so we don't talk about that nomination as much as we do, for instance, that pete hegseth, because you have a lot of these very sensational. specific allegations about his personal behavior. but in some ways, i think this one is giving people,

you know, graver concern and more pause. and that's not to say that she won't make it through, but i do think that this is one that gets less attention than it probably warrants. >> i will take that note and raise you a daily invitation to talk about it, and to talk about all the issues that she exposes. i think, having covered the trump story for nine years, that what the tulsi gabbard nomination exposes, in my view, is the complete submission of the republican party. there's no way any of the republicans that i knew when i was in politics agrees with her, and there's no way i'd bet against her confirmation. but it is a conversation that you are correct to say we should be having every day. and if you will both come back. >> we will. >> do that. director john >> do that. director john brennan and ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine.

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