free quote, call today 800 640 795. >> one. >> hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. quote. they have never been more dangerous. we begin today with a chilling warning about the nexus of domestic violent extremism and an emboldened president with a years long affinity for the far right. it comes from one of the prosecutors at the largest justice department investigation

in our history, the probe into the january 6th insurrection, which netted more than 1600 arrests and put the leaders of some of the most violent militias in the country in prison for decades on charges of seditious conspiracy. but it was all just undone by a mass pardon from the man who, as liz cheney puts it, lit the flame of the attack in the first place. writing in the new york times, former federal prosecutor brendan belew writes this quote while some convicted rioters seem genuinely remorseful and others appear simply ready to put politics behind them, many others are emboldened by the termination of what they see as unjust prosecutions. freed by the president. they have never been more dangerous. take stuart rhodes, whose oath keepers group staged firearms and ammunition near washington on january 6th in anticipation of a, quote, bloody and desperate fight. or enrique tarrio, whose proud boys

led rioters into the capitol and who had declared just after the 2020 election that while he and his followers would not start a civil war, they would be sure, to, quote, finish one. they are now free to pursue revenge and have already said they want it. as we reported earlier this week, retribution appears to have been on enrique tarrio's mind the minute he was released. watch. >> well, now. it's our church. now it's our turn. i'm happy that the president is focusing not on retribution and focusing on success. but i will tell you that i'm not going to play by those rules. the people who did this, they need to feel the heat. they need to be put behind bars and they need to be prosecuted. >> for what? it's our turn, he said. atrios and the stewart rhodes of the world are clearly aligned and feel aligned with trump, and trump appears to feel

aligned with them as well. listen to this. from tuesday. >> the leaders of the proud boys and the oath keepers were freed following the pardons yesterday. at the. at the time back in 2021, you urged them to stand back and stand by. is there now a place for them in the political conversation? >> well, we have to see they've been given a pardon. i thought their sentences were ridiculous and excessive and at least the cases that we looked at, these were people that actually love our country. so we thought a pardon would be appropriate. yeah. >> these are people who assaulted cops in many instances. so what we have now are emboldened extremists and a president, as you just saw, who wants them to, as he put it on in front of cameras years ago, stand back and stand by. billy writes this quote, what might happen next? vigilantes could harass, assault, or even kill perceived enemies of the state. under the thin pretext of these

vigilantes were acting in self-defense. the president could pardon them for federal crimes, or pressure pliant governors to do the same for state ones. in such a scenario, the president could put those loyal to him above the law. quite literally. this kind of violence was a part of our past. it may be a part of our future, but that kind of violence is not inevitable even today. what might be the first sign of some resistance to and accountability for, an empowered far right came in the form of an order from d.c. judge amit mehta, barring stewart rhodes and other members of the oath keepers from entering washington, d.c, rhodes have been spotted by nbc news reporters inside the capitol complex earlier this week and breaking in just the last hour, the justice department filed a motion to dismiss judge mehta's order, setting the terms of stewart rhodes release. the clear and present danger posed by now pardoned january 6th insurrectionists. and what we can do about it is where we

begin today. former federal prosecutor brendan ballou is here. he wrote that piece from the times that we just read from, and yesterday he resigned from his job at the department of justice. he's also the author of the book plunder private equity's plan to pillage america. also joining us, msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann. he was the top official at doj as well. all. msnbc political analyst tim miller is here as well. he's a former rnc spokesman, now host of the bulwark podcast. thank you for your service. seems wholly inadequate, not just for your service, but for what comes next. i imagine, as was the case in covering the first trump term, that for the single person who who takes the stand and writes out, you speak for a whole lot of people. you just tell me what what the mood is and what the conversations are among your now former colleagues. >> well, thank you so much for having me. and i should say that

while i'm speaking publicly, i was a very small part of a very large effort there. and so, you know, the people that really dedicated their lives to prosecuting the rioters on january 6th, many, if not most of them are still in the justice department. and so i hope that someday they will be able to tell their stories. i can't necessarily speak to what the mood is in the building, but i can say, at least at a personal level, i'm less concerned about how the prosecutors feel right now and more about the victims. from january 6th, police officers that were assaulted with flagpoles and bike racks who were maced, who are called slurs, officers who texted their families that day because they expected to die. i worry the most, or i think the most about those people today. >> well, and their nightmares

and perhaps re sort of cycle of trauma i think was restarted this week. officer fanone talked about calling the justice department to get information, and they told him that he is not technically a victim anymore. >> yeah. well, because the crime has been pardoned, there is no crime for him to be a victim of, at least in the eyes of the current justice department. >> is there any precedent of this mass effort to erase a crime that took place on live tv? >> you know, i can't speak to domestic comparisons, but i will say that this act of collective forgetting, you could call it, has a lot of historical or international comparisons. this is a common part of an illiberal project to erase the history of past wrongdoing. you know, you can look at in brazil, you know, jair bolsonaro pushing against, you know, celebrating his 1964

military coup or the current russian government actually rescinding the acquittals of soviet era political dissidents. this is an essential part of any illiberal political movement, and we've seen it happen internationally. and now we're seeing it happen here in the united states. >> what does it portend for us? >> i think it portends that this is just the beginning. i think that there is going to be an ongoing effort to both erase the history of january 6th and to try to create a false equivalency, to try to say that both sides, as it were, were responsible for atrocities and for violence. and i think it's going to be part of an effort to legitimate, state sanctioned, but not state sponsored political violence. >> what is the you know, most people think if someone threatens them, you open your phone and you call 911. if the

state is interested in greenlighting the violence, who do you call to protect you? >> i think it's a great question. so, you know, what we're talking about right now is really the very top level of the federal government. the leaders in the white house, perhaps in some law enforcement agencies. but i will say, you know, in a world where those people aren't particularly interested in protecting their political opponents, you know, trans people, immigrants, activists and so forth, i think the work of protecting these people is going to fall to states and localities. and so i think a lot of the work over the coming months, over the coming years, is going to be making sure that those state law enforcement agencies are focused on protecting those communities. >> christopher wray, who was appointed by donald trump after he fired jim comey, testified under oath right ahead of the 2020 election that domestic violent extremism is the greatest threat facing the homeland. and in that bucket, white supremacist aligned or

inspired extremists make up the largest group. is that the ideology of the insurrectionists that were prosecuted? >> i can't speak to the ideology of every insurrectionist, but i will say what i think makes this unique, even from the since christopher wray made that statement, is he was talking about a period where the federal government was opposed to those ideologies and opposed to that violent movement that is no longer necessarily the case. and i believe that both the purpose and the effect of these pardons is to create or to encourage vigilantes and militias who are loyal to the head of state, but unaccountable to the government. >> and how does that. it feels like the unraveling happens very quickly. i mean, do you do you see criminals invoking these pardons if they align themselves with donald trump's ideology as a motive for carrying out

violence? >> well, i think we know that they can do that because they have done that already in a matter of days. you already played the quote from enrique tarrio. there was a quote from one activist who was not arrested for actions at the capitol, but nevertheless saying that he would be part of a militia or die for president trump. you have jacob chansley, the so-called qanon shaman, announcing shortly after he was released that he was planning to buy guns. so i think we can be pretty confident that this is the intention of a lot of these rioters, because they're saying it right now. >> when you worked on these cases, was it in the back of your mind that trump could pardon all of these people? >> i think it was in the back of everybody's mind. yeah. >> how did trump's campaign hang over the effort of holding accountable people who so brazenly carried out acts of violence in his name? >> i think it makes me think

about the professionalism of not just the prosecutors in that office continuing to pursue these cases, no matter what the possible consequences to them were not just the lawyers, though, but the paralegals, the administrative staff, the police officers who were victims or witnesses and often testified in these trials and in the judiciary. the judges that oversaw these cases. i think for those people in particular, those people who were the least protected, i think showed the most courage over the past year. >> what is the effort to defend everyone who's been named and targeted by trump? he says that he will go after everyone involved in trying to hold him and his people accountable for their crimes. he doesn't seem to differentiate between people who headed agencies and people who reported to other people that

were making other decisions. what what have people done to protect themselves? >> you know, i can't speak to the specific actions that people are doing in terms of, you know, some people going out and, you know, trying to pay for security services or things like that. i think the thing that concerns me most is that there are whole categories of people who literally cannot protect themselves, either because of they don't have the money, they don't have the social capital, or because they're identifiable in public. again, once again, you know, when we're talking about trans people, some immigrants and so forth, i think these are folks that are the most vulnerable, and it's going to fall to local communities to work to protect them. >> i was thinking about that because this week we had, i think every day this week we had someone for whom trump had removed protections from a foreign threat. i think john bolton came out and said, for all the criticisms that i've lobbed publicly at joe biden, he believed in protecting me and my family from the threat from

iran. i think the next day, trump removed the yesterday, removed the detail from pompeo. and there's something sadistic in covering the removal of a protection for someone who is known to be at risk from a foreign enemy. what happens inside the department of justice, which is the conduit, usually for communicating threats to people who are out of government? i think it goes right all the way up to the highest levels of the department. when someone is known to be the target of a foreign plot. what what happens to a department that reorients itself to leave those people vulnerable from a foreign threat? >> yeah. you know, i think it's probably going to be something that andrew is going to be better positioned to talk about, given his seniority in. >> the justice. take that one. i mean, what i mean, i know at the highest levels of the department, when the iranian plots were for something that they tried to respond to and protect people, activists and former government officials from those orders to provide protection for those folks went to the highest levels of the department. what happens now when a foreign actor threatens a

former trump cabinet official? >> so this is where. >> you have within. >> out of sight, but within. the department of justice, within the state department, you will have this friction of people who are apolitical with commonly referred to derogatorily as the deep state would. in fact, they are just, you know, the bureaucracy doing their job, which is what you were yesterday and trying to say, this is what we need to do. and seeing whether their leadership is going to be we're not doing it. and then you end up with what we saw in trump 1.0, which was is unheard of, is people at the department, people in the state department, department of justice leaving. and so the signs of that tension where people are trying to do their job. what gets characterized as being political when it's in fact the exact opposite, right. what we see is just the people

leaving. and sometimes like jonathan kravis or you, that someone speaks out and says, this is what happened. >> i mean, tim miller, the, the, the proof point for how nonpolitical it is, right? is that john bolton could i pressed him over and over and could never bring himself to support the alternative to trump? he simply, you know, found it in him after being almost prosecuted, i think, by bill barr's justice department for the book he wrote to sound the alarm about trump. but he wasn't a he wasn't a harris backer, and he represents he and his family are threatened by the iranians. mike pompeo was on tv, i think, 2 or 3 weeks ago, fawning over donald trump. i believe the topic was the middle east. these are the people that the biden administration thought it was imperative to protect. and the trump administration, in one, two, three days time, yanked their protection. >> isn't that.

>> wild, nicole? i just. >> think about it that. john bolton. >> who didn't even support. kamala harris, is being targeted. >> for political. opposition to trump like that, the so-called free speech party, like the people that the whole rationale for ellen and trump is, is that they're going to protect everybody's right to speech. john. john bolton didn't even have the right to speak about his concerns about donald trump without going all the way to opposing him, without suffering consequences at the hand of the state. and, you know, i talked on the podcast this morning to david french, the conservative writer columnist at the new york times, and he had put all this together in his recent column about just about his concerns. i mean, think if you tie those two stories together, what what what is happening with the pardons you were discussing with brendan and this revocation of security clearances? like, what message is that sending to vigilantes, as brendan mentions? as what message does that sending to the oath keepers and the proud boys? right. it's like, not only will

this government give bail you out if you act violently on behalf of donald trump, but they will also not protect opponents of donald trump and not even really even full throated opponents. mild critics of donald trump won't be protected from threats of violence, at least won't be protected by this government. i mean, that is creating a very, very dangerous situation and creating some extremely i mean, it's almost an understatement to call it perverse incentives, but like perverse incentives to, you know, people that are out there who are radicalized, who are supporters of this president. i mean, it's just like put together. it's a very alarming series of events. just over the first few days. >> did you wrestle with the decision to leave, or was this a no brainer when the pardons came through? >> i had no particular interest

in leaving the department of justice for most of my career. after the pardons came out, i think it was obvious to me that my effectiveness within the building was slim to nil, and that i could be somewhat more effective by leaving and leaving as noisily as i could. >> and you write about the folks who are pardoned as being the most dangerous they've ever been. i mean, for any of us who watched the violence that day, that's a that's a scary metric. what do you mean? >> well, you know, the challenge that we've got now is that these folks believe that they have the support of the very highest levels of the government, not just in words, but in deeds. they've been pardoned once. they could be pardoned again. and so we have a situation where these folks could form vigilantes, could form militias, enact violence in the name of the president in the name of that movement, and then literally be pardoned once again and put

above the law. >> thank you so much for what you did in government, and thank you for the things you've done since you left. it's really it's impossible to understand the gravity of what we're seeing covering without folks like yourself who speak out. so thank you. >> thank you for. >> having me. please come back. brandon below. thank you, andrew weissman. thank you for starting us off. tim sticks around when we come back. the final. you want to stick around a little longer? that wasn't enough of you. andrew will stick around to the final vote for pete hegseth. confirmation. that's why i stumbled. i saw the goodbye, and i think he can't go anywhere. the final vote for pete hegseth. and we all know what he has been accused of. what has been alleged, what has been reported. the final vote for him is expected to take place later tonight. that does not mean, of course, that the allegations about his past behavior have stopped coming. we'll tell you the latest next. plus, as we put a cap on the first week of trump 2.0. one thing is clear now donald trump is doing anything he wants, even as it flies in

the face of what the public actually approves of. and later in the show, the new administration setting its sights next on disrupting the nation's health agencies, causing chaos, confusion and fear. we have all those stories fear. we have all those stories and more when dea what the biggest companies deliver is an exceptional customer experience. what makes it possible is unmatched connectivity and 5g solutions from t-mobile for business. t-mobile connects 100,000 delta airlines employees, powers tractor supply's stores nationwide with reliable 5g business internet, and partners with pga of america on game changing innovation. this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business. my name's dan and i live here in san antonio, texas. i ran my own hvac business and now i'm retired. i'm not good being retired. i'm a pain in the neck. i like to be able to have a purpose. about three or four years ago, i felt like i was starting to slip. i saw the prevagen commercials.

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lead the united states pentagon. those allegations include alcohol abuse and sexual misconduct, all of which hegseth has denied. one issue that came up during his confirmation hearing last week is whether or not his two ex-wives can openly discuss their marriages. here's that line of questioning. >> the finalizing. >> divorces from your. >> first and second wives. were there nondisclosure agreements in connection. >> with those divorces? >> senator. >> not that i'm aware of. if there were, would you agree to release those first and second wives from any confidentiality agreement? senator, it's not something i'm aware of, but. but if there were, you would agree to release them from a confidentiality. senator, that's not my responsibility. >> it wasn't it. yes. well, now we have a bit of an explanation. maybe there's brand new reporting on a divorce settlement with his second ex-wife, samantha hegseth. it is not a full nondisclosure agreement, but nbc can report that it includes a non-disparagement clause.

according to that reporting, quote, pete and samantha hegseth are prohibited from saying anything negative about the other parent in front of their children and that each will, quote, refrain from engaging themselves in any public discourse, including through either traditional media or social media, disparaging the other party. joining our conversation, nbc news congressional correspondent julie sirkin and ceo of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america, former army captain allison jaslow, take us through. julie, the latest reporting on mr. hegseth. >> yeah, well, this was actually part of a document that i want to be clear. republicans and democrats on the committee have had access to since before its confirmation hearing. and in this document, as lisa had laid out in her reporting, they are being careful about what they're calling this. it's some sort of confidentiality agreement. but as you saw, hegseth was very well prepped in his question and answer period in front of the committee during his confirmation hearing to stick to

the terms that he knows he could say and get away with. and that's what you saw in his questioning with senator tim kaine. of course, his attorney, parlatore, had issued a response saying it's not a nondisclosure agreement. it's a limited non-disparagement agreement. these are two legally distinct concepts, and there is nothing inappropriate or inaccurate about mr. hempstead's answers to the committee. he says this takes some significant imagination and intellectual dishonesty for anyone to consider. this to bear on the credibility of his testimony. then there's a second beat, nicole, which came out of the questions. for the record, those never really tend to produce much news, but in this case, the questions that senators on the committee were able to pose to him after his confirmation hearing had ended. because, remember, democrats were denied a second round of questioning. there was one question and answer specifically from senator elizabeth warren, where she asked him how much money he paid to the woman who accused him of alleged sexual assault in monterey, california, in 2017. he said it was $50,000. and, of course, texas attorney again saying that that was their attempt to preclude any black

male coming forward, that this was during the period of the metoo movement. and that is certainly how they are spinning that particular response. now, that being said, we are hours away from the vote tonight. nicole. there are still several republicans, i'm told, who are on the fence about about his confirmation. there are private meetings going on. but of course, they're also under a lot of pressure from the white house across pennsylvania avenue. of course, they've been getting calls, texts, pressure put on them to vote for pete hegseth tonight, to not join senator susan collins and lisa murkowski in opposing him. he would need two more people to vote against him in order to not get confirmed. no senator wants to be that third one. and then for jd vance to break the tie. so they need at least two more to join them here. >> andrew weissmann, would an fbi investigation? first of all, my understanding from working in the government is that the fbi vet is to make sure that that an official can't be subject to blackmail from an enemy, from a foreign enemy, is to make sure

you're not at risk of being compromised and then threatened and then betraying the united states. the notion that every senator isn't demanding that he couldn't be the victim of blackmail is bonkers and couldn't. so one, is that still the case? and two, can the fbi pierce any non-disparagement agreement that any witness has? >> okay, so let me do this. the disparate non-disparagement that's a that is a private contract between two parties, whether it's a nondisclosure, whether it's a non-disparagement, whether it's both. that's just two parties privately agreeing the that does not bind the government. the government can call these people. they can have questions under oath. you have to give a truthful answer so that private agreement can't in any way forbid the congress, the fbi from asking these questions. so they're really just apples and oranges. that's not a defense to oh, i can't tell you the issue on these background checks is

just your point is totally right normally. so that's obviously not the situation we're in. normally the fbi does. fbi does for anybody who's going to be the secretary of defense. i mean, we're not we're talking about like somebody could not think of a more important position other than president. you have a full fbi check. you don't have the issue where you say, well, the senate wants something minor. but then when we get to the security clearance review, that will be deeper. they're both deep. they're both the same because you have the same interests in making sure they can't be blackmailed. are they trustworthy? is there anything in their background that would cause you to have some questions about the person's character, their reliability, all of the natural, normal things. and you want that in both fora. you want it both when you're deciding, should you

vote for this person and you want it when you decide, should this person get the highest, most top secret documents in the country? we apparently are in a situation where there's a truncated fbi background check because they will do what they're requested to do in terms of the background check. but if he gets if he gets through this, the next part is how is he going to get security clearance? now, one answer to that is donald trump will just say, just give it to him and there will not be the normal background check. this is i want to make sure everyone understands this is an apolitical issue. this is one you worked for a republican administration. i worked for republican and democratic administrations. all of us would be. absolutely everyone has to go through this. everybody is subjected to this. and you want only people who can be trusted having access to these documents. >> i want to make a point about how rare this is, and i

understand the inevitability of this political moment as well as anybody. but alison mattis was confirmed 98 to 1. i believe esper was 88 to 11. hegseth, as far as we know, is already going to be the first defense secretary to have bipartisan opposition in america's history. what does that do to the men and women of the military? >> well, i think. not just a very close vote. >> that looks like. >> it might be taking place later today, unfortunately. but i think also the way that this story has played out, you know, means that we are putting a man at the top of the secretary of defense that the men and women who are going to be falling under him in the chain of command, know a lot of details about his character and his background that are not only concerning, but, you know, there are two aspects of his background that i don't believe. got enough time, air time.

excuse me. with questions in the senate hearing last week or in the story at all. and he actively, actively lobbied the president to pardon convicted war criminals. these were individuals who were only convicted because men who served alongside of them, who saw the same horrors of war that they did, and still felt like he crossed the line that we should not cross in the united states military, not only is it bad that we're putting somebody in the role of the secretary of defense who seemingly thinks war crimes are okay, that's bad for national security, but it is also extremely disrespectful to the to the men who had the courage to come forward to risk their own reputations, in some instances, to turn in one of their battle buddies on these war crimes. and, you know, i wish one of those senators had asked him what kind of message that sends to those men who had the courage to turn them in, that he actually lobbied to have

these convicted war criminals pardoned and seemingly doesn't trust their word or their judgment. that sends a bad message, i think, to those who are still serving, especially those who are trying to serve honorably. and that really concerns me for the future of our force and their leadership. >> our conversation will continue to have. julie sirkin allison jaslow, thank you so much. our friend andrew weissmann had to go. we kept him longer than we had asked. my thanks to all of you. up next for us, donald trump's first week in office is showing all of us how he intends to seize and wield power, and how he'll be testing the limits of democracy again and again. much more again and again. much more ahead. d my moderate to severe crohn's disease... ...and my ulcerative colitis symptoms... ...kept me... ...out of the picture. now... ...there's skyrizi. ♪i've got places to go...♪ ♪...and i'm feeling free♪ ♪control of my symptoms means everything...♪ ♪...to me♪ ♪control is everything to me♪ and now... ...i'm back in the picture. feel significant symptom relief at... ...4 weeks with skyrizi.

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>> plans from homeserve start at just. 4.99 a month. call 1-888-246-2612 or visit homeserve. com. >> those of us old enough to remember monday may recall it started with overtures to compassion, courage and exceptionalism and a new spirit of unity. he actually said that. so much for that. there was barely time to clean up after the inauguration, before trump started in on his agenda. one that is, as it's been carried out in stark contrast to the expressed desires and policy reasons and rationales of the american people, including many who voted for him. take his pardoning of the violent criminals from january 6th. according to a reuters poll conducted this week, 58% of all respondents said people convicted of crimes as a result of the attack should not be pardoned, and his war on birthright citizenship. more

than half of americans told ap that they either strongly or somewhat opposed changing the constitution. so children born in the united states are not automatically granted citizenship if their parents are here illegally. and yet. and yet here we are, freeing violent criminals, many of whom assaulted police officers and trying to rewrite the united states constitution. joining our conversation, former trump white house communications director, host of the open book podcast, anthony scaramucci is back. tim is also here. anthony, tell me what you think is going on. and if this is the tone that you and the pace and the absolute malevolence that trump will project for four years, or is this just the opening salvo? >> well. >> if. >> you. >> remember, during the campaig, he said that he didn't know who the project 2025 people were. and then he's now installing them into the administration,

and he's signing executive orders that literally look just like project 2025. so there can't be any surprise there. before we go to tim, i just want to point out that one thing that's hurting right now, senators are calling trump, talking about the potential alcoholism and talking about the issue related to if he relapses on the job, how cataclysmic that could potentially be to everybody. and that's the reason why trump put out that ambiguous, ambiguous truth social tweet today. so he is hanging by a thread and we'll have to see what happens. but it doesn't look good for him. that tweet was very bad for him. reading trump tea leaves. >> say more. i mean, we know how much trump dislikes. alcoholism and things that he seems to treat it like. it's a weakness in terms of just what we've heard him say publicly. but he did have he also had a weird answer. you know, susan

murkowski, susan collins, murkowski, mitch. i mean, he seemed, to your point, aware of the skepticism. say more. >> well, he's been reaching out to these senators. he he wants him to get confirmed, but they're pushing back on him and explaining and more or less saying to him, hey, do you want your political capital expended on this? because there's an issue here, potentially. and if there is a relapse and there's consequences pursuant to what went on in that sworn affidavit, do you want that stain on your legacy, given your past opinions of alcoholism and the use of alcohol, etcetera? and i think it stopped him a little bit. you know, he's he's gung ho and wants to run over everybody. but at the same time, it's not clear that he's going to use a lot of political capital here with pete. now, after these latest rounds of allegations and again, when i say allegations, these are sworn affidavits which i

think changes the facts set in the situation. >> yeah, i mean, tim, they're sworn affidavits and we have the name. so it renders inoperative the performance that he gave at his hearing when he he chalked everything up to quote, anonymous smear. let me let me press you a little bit. i mean, the history that trump would make in ramming through headsets is bad history for trump. he would be the first ever american president to have, as his secretary of defense, someone with bipartisan opposition. and it's just such a it's for someone who branded his first cabinet the best people. i mean, it worked. mattis was confirmed 98 to 1, esper 88 to 11. i mean, to have someone who's only bipartisan rallying and the only unity they create is in opposition of your guy is not a good way for trump to start. >> for sure. and i guess you should say, i hope anthony's right about that. i've been pretty cynical and skeptical

that these republican senators were going to stand up and put their, you know, put their political capital on the line in public. but it would be good news for anthony, because if pete hegseth goes down soon, we'd have a new kind of time denomination for as long as somebody lasts. so, you know, it'd be it would be a hegseth if you went down tonight only only three days. so there's a serious element to this, though, and you talk about the political, you know, kind of ramifications and the difference from mattis and all this. but like the idea that this evening we could this senate will ram through a secretary of defense on a vote that is bipartisan against. right. like that's what we're looking at right now, a 51, 49 or 5050 with jd vance breaking the tie vote. that is all that is most of the republicans, but not all against all of the democrats and a couple of republicans. i you know, this is not like some random political

posting, right? like, this iskea judgeship, like some random circuit court judgeship or, you know, for, you know, a less important position, you know, the if for a position like epa, that is very partizan. and with the way the two parties, you know, view the scope of the agency, that'd be one thing. but this is the department of defense, this is the military, this is the organization that's supposed to protect the whole country that has a history of bipartisanship, and for there to be a bipartisan vote against this guy and for them to ram him through anyway when he has no qualifications for the job, when he's been a weekend talk show host on it. and then you layer in all of the personal problems that that are in the affidavits. i do think it would be a massive political risk for trump to put him there. but more importantly, it just it would be a massive risk for the country and really inject the pentagon into the political, you know, into a political fight in a way that it has never been. >> i want to press both of you

on where the levers are this time around. i mean, it's a totally different political landscape where i think democrats, it's fair to say, seem disoriented at this point. you've got a bishop is the first and only person in real time to confront donald trump simply asking for mercy for the most vulnerable people among us. you've got trump telling sean hannity, never mind when he presses about the economy. clearly, the talk about the economy is not what trump planned to deal with his first week in office. and i want to ask all of you what the political fallout is and to whom political fallout is and to whom that matters. i have to sneak i i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... —yeah? —yes! ...this year, we are finally updating our kitchen... ...doing subway tile in an ivory, or eggshell... —cream?... —maybe bone?... don't get me started on quartz. a big big island... you ever heard of a waterfall counter?... for everyone who talks about doing that thing, and, over there. but never does that thing... a sweet little breakfast nook. chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving to make this happen. —really? —really?

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get a pencil and write down the number below. call us and take the hearing life 30 day risk free challenge. >> anthony and timber back. anthony. there's a lot of batman echoes this week, right? emptying the prisons i. the other one i'm curious about is he one? but he didn't win with the mandate. he seems to think he won with. and i take the history that if they couldn't convince him in 2020 that he lost, it's probably hard to convince him in 24 that he didn't win with a sweeping mandate. but the things he's doing this week are so unpopular. grifting making making his own billions in crypto, ending birthright citizenship, changing the constitution. very, very unpopular compared to his other immigration policies. for him, the politics are fantastic. the pardons of the people who abused and beat and carried out violence against law enforcement. what does that

portend in terms of his interest in doing things that are good for him politically? >> well, let's start with the mandate question. so it's not only him that believes that he won with a mandate. i actually think it's the democrats, for some reason that believe that he won with a mandate. and if we look at it objectively, the democrats failed at an intergenerational transfer of power. and so joe biden, for whatever reason, didn't want to give it up, didn't give the other side a, you know, other people in his party a chance to win that nomination, and yet they only lost by a half a percent. so the real question is, why isn't there more organized dissent related to what donald trump is doing? and then as it relates to whether it's good politics or bad politics, i think the way he's looking at this is if he can't get that constitutional amendment passed, which he's already got, the house republicans proposing that he gets the opportunity to run again if he can't get that pass, assuming he can't. the politics

of him right now are basically irrelevant. he's going to push things through and try to radicalize things in the direction that he wants, irrespective of the politics. if he's a lame duck. >> and what do we do in response? what should we do, anthony? what would what would slow down? what is, to use your words, a radical and dangerous agenda. >> so it's, you know, you have to go back into history. h.w. brands wrote a great book called america first, the first america first movement, which was led by people like charles lindbergh and huey long and father coughlin. franklin roosevelt was adept at organizing and being aggressive about the advocacy of the other narrative. and so this is happening all over the world, frankly. and so it's not just here in the united states, but it's in europe. same sort of nationalist tendencies are happening, same sort of sort of this white nationalism, if you will. and for me, i think it's

very simple. let's get organized. let's get as many people into the boat as possible to explain how wrong this is. these missteps on the constitution can be pressed hard. revoking birthright citizenship, which was really part of the healing process after the civil war, is probably the most anti-american thing that american that an american president has done post-civil war. and i think we just we've got to get more organized, and we've got to get more thoughtful people out there advocating about how wrong this is, because, again, these margins are very small. nicole. it's not like he's got this. it's not like abraham lincoln and ronald reagan had a baby and made donald trump. that's not what it is. it's roy cohn and charles lindbergh had the baby and made donald trump. so we have to go. we have to go after him in a way that they would in prior times in america, when this stuff has cropped up. >> i will hold my thought about

what that. >> baby visuals for you. >> yeah, those bad visuals for you. >> you totally. i got lost in the visuals. i conjured up an image of each. and then i was thinking about the baby, and i was. i'm just lost in it. but tim miller can save me here. now, listen, i agree with with this idea that the democrats are also misreading trump's win as some sort of mandate. and i think part of it is, is stunning that he ran on some of these things and won. but enough already. i mean, there are teachers and principals all over the country, i would imagine, especially in red states, trying to figure out how to protect 456789 year old kids. you know, they don't they don't have time to stare at their gazels there is someone with allegations of alcohol abuse and rape against him barreling toward being in the nuclear chain of command, you know, wake up. and i and i wonder if we're looking in the wrong places. i wonder, tim, if you're seeing any signs of opposition outside of the elected democrats. >> not enough, i guess. i look,

you see some and i you know, chris murphy's been out there like you've seen some examples of democrats. aoc is talking. so it's not like that. there's none but just organized opposition. not nearly as much as 2017. i reject this notion that the resistance failed because donald trump got back in. no, it was resistance and opposition to trump that led to his defeat in the midterms of 2018 and 2020. and so i agree with anthony's point that that the democrats need to look at, you know, back into history, into alternative ways to develop a narrative, a counter narrative, particularly to speak to working class people. like that's a long term project for the democrats. in the meantime, they need to oppose and oppose passionately and oppose vigorously, you know, using the limited levers that they have. and just one just tangible example of this i saw in one of the newsletters this morning, one of the, you know, capitol hill rags that that the democrats are already talking about cutting a deal with, with the republicans to keep the

government open in march and raise the debt ceiling and pay for the california fire stuff and pay for border stuff. any of that stuff might make sense in a vacuum. as you know, on their own, it's good policy, but the democrats need to stop this. like the country needs to see the unpopular policies and the incompetent governance that these that this maga party is planning, and they need to see it clearly, and they need to see the democrats as in clear opposition to it. and that is the job for this year. and so i get very concerned when i start to hear that the democrats think that the lesson that they need is to cut some, cut some deals with mike johnson and john thune and donald trump. no, let those let those guys do some work and let's see their unpopular proposals and action and let's speak clearly about the people that will be harmed for them. and i think that's really the democrats job for the next 6 to 12 months. >> anthony scaramucci, it is a bizarre position to be in to be

defending. i guess it's not bizarre. i mean, whether you agree or disagree with with mike pompeo or john bolton, it was president biden's position and it is mine that they should have protection from a foreign actor who threatens their lives. and that is iran. that is their security situation as far as any of us knows, donald trump said, you're on your own. he's mad at both of them. he also fired brian hook, who was very involved in the transition. what is going on in terms and there's a very public fight right now between elon musk and steve bannon. it is clearly not all rainbows and unicorns and chocolate fondue and maga world. what's going on? >> well. >> there's a fight for the core of maga. and the real interesting part about it is trump himself is not maga. just take a look at what he did. he's got the billionaires lined up right behind his family, the people that are in his government that supposedly represent maga were behind them. and trust me, i know him. he's a very detail oriented guy that way in terms of esthetics, that was done by design because he

wants to show those people, those sent a billionaires, if you will, as supplicants to him. he's calling into the world economic forum. you know, steve bannon hates the world economic forum. and so trump definitionally sort of is weirdly not maga. elon musk is obviously not maga. perhaps steve bannon is. and so there's a war going on there, but again, doesn't care about that stuff because he's won the election. and so the ensuing politics is not that big of a deal to him. people would push back on me and say, oh no, but the congressional midterms, does anybody here think that he cares about what happens in the congressional midterms? i'm going to tell you right now, he marginally does, but not really, because everything is about him. so look at the look at it through the following prism. am i getting a lot of attention or am i making a lot of money? and that's that's donald trump. and the way the way to beat him is to get to the normal people that are currently apathetic about

the situation and bring them into the swimming pool with us. >> all right. we'll continue to turn to both of you on that conversation. anthony scaramucci and tim miller, thank you both so much. up next for us, the new white house suddenly putting the nation's health agencies on pause. we'll get reaction and look at the consequences to the lives and the health and the safety of all americans. when safety of all americans. when deadline. white house (♪♪) hi neighbor! you switched to t-mobile home internet yet? trim your hedge. it's $35 bucks a month with no price hikes! bam! it runs on t-mobile's wireless 5g network, so all you gotta do is plug in one cord! t-mobile 5g home internet. just $35 bucks a month. and with price lock, we won't raise your rate on internet. i did it! aaahh!! i switched to t-mobile home internet, and i am loving it! don't sneak up on me like that. (♪♪)

environments has become too difficult, we are requesting your participation in a special program called the 30 day risk free challenge hearing life hearing centers are seeking people with hearing difficulties to evaluate a new 100% digital mini hearing aid now being released. all people with hearing aids or hearing difficulties are wanted to take part in this 30 day risk free challenge. evaluating this new high tech device that sits discreetly behind your ear. this hearing aid is bluetooth enabled and rechargeable. all hearing assessments are performed at no charge. for those taking part in the challenge, participants will try these hearing aids for 30 days. now, to take part in this event, you must call. so please get a pencil and write down the get a pencil and write down the number below. call u today, i chooseth how to screeneth for colon cancer! here on my land, not theirs.

give me cologuard®, or give me— excuse me. we can do that for you. what, no battle? nope. just a prescription. victory! cologuard is an effective and non-invasive colon cancer screening test. false positive and negative results may occur. those at high risk should use colonoscopy. skip the drama. ask your provider or request cologuard online. i guess what i'm looking for from you is, i mean, i know how the fire affected me, and there's always a constant fear

that who's to say something like that won't happen again? that's fair. we committed to underground, 10,000 miles of electric line. you look back at where we were 10 years ago and we are in a completely different place today, and it's because of how we need to care for our communities and our customers. i hope that's true. [joe] that's my commitment. [ambient noise] allergies and questionable singing voice. don't make him inherit your final expense. tab two. >> and then i see the disinfectant where it knocks it. out in a minute. one minute. and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or or almost a cleaning? because, you see, it gets on the lungs and it does a tremendous number of the lungs. so it'd be interesting to check that when you do testing to that extent, you're going to find more people, you're going to find more cases. so i said to my

people, slow the testing down, please. they test and they test. we got tests that people don't know what's going on. >> hi again everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. what do we get? what do we expect to get when we return that person back to the white house? at best, a fundamental lack of understanding about human health. where incompetence could cost lives, at worst, an administration that takes active steps to put profits and personal vendettas above what's best for the country, and in doing so, putting the lives of every american and people around the world at risk. keeping people safe and healthy should be something we can still agree on even now. things like stopping the spread of pandemics, ensuring that medicines are tested and safe before they're sold and available, funding research to find cures to diseases that don't discriminate based on your political party. things like cancer. and that's exactly what's happening. that's exactly what we're seeing. the new

administration take aim at. washington post reports this, quote, health officials and experts said this week they are reeling after the new trump administration on tuesday abruptly halted external communication at the department of health and human services and its agencies, including the centers for disease control and prevention and the national institutes of health, meaning things like meetings of scientific researchers, experiments, other sciencey stuff. it all stopped decisions about who to give grant money to for their work, stopped travel for employees at hhs, stopped communications that are relied upon to disseminate critical health information about ongoing stuff, stopped. that happened this week, former cdc director tom frieden pointed this out yesterday. cdc's morbidity and mortality weekly report have provided real time data and

analysis about disease outbreaks and emerging health threats, with outbreak every week since the year 1960 until today. seems like a long time. the post spoke with victoria sewell, chair of population sciences at city of hope comprehensive cancer center, who is scheduled to lead an nih study section thursday that was abruptly canceled without guidance on when it would be rescheduled. the session was scheduled to review grants focused on cancers and other chronic illnesses. she said. this, quote, everything is basically in chaos and frankly, everyone is terrified. we've never seen anything like this. this is like a meteor that crashed into all our cancer centers and research areas. that meteor apparently, all because this new administration wants trump's people to monitor everything, including cancer research. a memo sent out by the

acting hhs secretary obtained by npr said this, quote, refrain from publicly issuing any document or communication until it has been reviewed and approved by a presidential nominee. so his health, research and money and communications are stopped. paused. trump also cut off the us's access to global health data when he pulled the country out of the world health organization in one of his very first executive orders, a frightening move as concerns over bird flu outbreaks are mounting. alarm in the health industry is where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts in france epidemiologist, health economist and chair of the new england complex systems institute, doctor eric feigl-ding is here. plus critical care physician, professor of pediatrics and pediatric disaster response expert doctor michael anderson is here. also joining us, senior editor for health and science at forbes. alex knapp is here. alex, i'll start with you on the

reporting. we only learn of some of these shutdowns or pauses when they're public facing. i wonder if you can just help folks understand how vast the medical and the health and the and sort of the federal agencies that work in this area are. and how much more could be impacted that we don't know about yet. >> yeah. >> and thanks for having me on the show. it's important to understand that the nih is almost $50 billion a year worth of the federal budget, and that goes to research hospitals. it goes to providing care. it goes to biotech startups, it goes to collaborations with pharmaceutical companies to develop vaccines against potential pandemic threats. there's really a wide ranging number of things that it does. and in addition to disseminating public health information and

making sure and tracking disease outbreaks. >> doctor anderson, i wonder if you can sort of orient us around what even falls into the category of some transition? i mean, i mean, i guess none of it when it comes to nih, because the transition landing team under a normal transition is there to make sure that the sciencey stuff isn't impacted. just talk about how unprecedented this moment is for the medical and scientific community. >> yeah. >> nicole, it truly is unprecedented. and yes, when administrations change, there are sometimes gaps or hiccups or whatever it is because. >> a new. >> team has to learn rapidly. >> exactly what's. >> in their portfolio. but this shutdown, this. almost complete. shutdown is really disconcerting. and a couple of the pieces you quoted, there's something called a study section. it's very sciency. it's very medicinae. a study section is a really important, i would

say, vital part of the research chain. that is, when learned scientists, physician researchers get together, they review the grants and they figure out who's going to be funded. you know, in 2025, we sit in an amazing time in medicine, curing so many people with different types of cancer. advances in pharmacology and drug therapy. how do we get there, though? we get there through research and how do we get research done? we get it through mostly funding by the nih. so the notion that study sections are shut down for any period. >> of time. >> and the terror that people are reporting as researchers is really disconcerting. >> can you help us work backward, doctor anderson, from the consequences to what the motive could be? why would you do this? what would you be wanting to do if you would do this much damage to medicine and science? >> yeah, it's tough to control. you're either naive to the scope of what you've asked to halt or

you want control. you want such line by line control that you don't trust the learned professionals that have been doing this for a long time, that have been advancing science. and it's tough for me to say what the motivation is. i just know if you're a researcher in the trenches and you've been working so hard to get that grant to study this new therapy for cancer, this news has got to be devastating. now, just take one quick sidebar. it is tough to recruit physicians to be interested in doing this kind of science and putting up these kind of roadblocks or this kind of, you know, cessation of activities. i think we could see long, multiyear ramifications of this. doctor feigl-ding it would be naive to think that trump's one brush with political calamity before, during and after his one brush with public health is unrelated to what we're seeing. but i wonder, again, if you could take us through the consequences of the

actions of just the last five days? >> yeah, this. >> is again unprecedented. but to add to. >> what doctor. >> anderson was saying, study sessions, the domino effect is not just on federal workers. people who think, oh, nih workers. no, the domino effect is to actually squeeze universities across the country because nih is the number one funder of university research and medical schools and schools of public health. and so this is in certain ways, you know, for all the epidemiologists who told trump he was wrong, this is his retribution against all these medical and public health scientists who said, you know, vaccines work. you know, we need to, you know, do these precautionary things, wear masks. this is retribution. and when these squeezes and shuts down these study sections, the domino effect is a lot of these scientists won't get funded for another half a year. the domino effect will be huge. and also what's not been reported enough is that not only has there been

this freeze, but the nih has politically removed all grant awards for any racial disparities, any racial and of course, lgbt, the disparities as well. so if pages are used to say we will fund racial disparity research in cancer, heart disease, diabetes, anything mentioning racial disparities have now been deleted by the trump administration. so it's during this phase, they're actually politically purging all nih research that is not in their favor, not in their political, you know, project 2025 ethos and of course, exact retribution against all the public health and medical scientists who, you know, he has vendetta against from the pandemic. >> is the only person, i think, who has worked in the dirty business of politics. i would say nothing would be more popular than curing a disease, any disease. i mean, what? yeah, i mean what what is what is the

what is the long term consequence? and how does if trump wanted to put all this back together, how long would that take? >> well, to rebuild something after you burn it down takes a very long time. but right now, i think after the squeeze over, they say, well, you know, it's a temporary pause. you know, i've heard this. it's a temporary pause until february 1st. but the issue is these meetings, these in-person meetings actually will be probably rescheduled two, three, four months from now. and the impact of that research is we're talking about medical research, clinical trials that cannot pause, but they are scattered around us, around the world trying to find cures for all these diseases, find cures and vaccines and treatments for these neglected diseases. so the impact on universities will be humongous. entire university budgets might be frozen for quite an extra long period of time, but greater that the

silence on scientists and other researchers speaking out. you know, for example, cdc not publishing the mmwr report that doctor tom frieden mentioned first time in 60 years. it's devastating because now it also, even if they restart it, there will be this, you know, eerie silence, this unspoken you better not publish anything that we don't want you to publish, which again, during the pandemic, we know trump administration muzzled mmwr scientific reports on the pandemic. anything that he doesn't like. so they will have a huge chilling effect. and of course, the deletion, the systematic deletion of all racial disparity. research on nih website that will definitely devastate a huge numbers of people. i know a scientist and at a major university says, you know, they worked so long for one of these racial disparity researchers, i don't think they're going to get funded anymore, considering the whole grant award program got shut down overnight. and that has not been talked about at all.

>> it is stunningly abrupt. i mean, alex, i, we spent a lot of time on project 2025 on this program and the dog days of summer. we would just flip open to any page and read from it. and this feels like someone decided to go further than even what was put on paper, including attacking cancer research. let me read some of the reporting in forbes. these grant review panels were a team of nih experts. review research proposals are required before the $47.4 billion agency will disperse money to support research by hospitals, universities and biotech companies. the biggest chunk of this money goes toward cancer research. the nih budget has a $7.1 billion annual budget for the national cancer institute, of which more than $3 billion a year is allocated directly towards research for the diagnosis, prevention and treatment of cancer, which causes more than 600 600,000 deaths in the us every year. the rest goes to patient care, training and disseminating information related to the

disease. this this would seem to me to be supported by 0% of americans. what is the if? i mean, i hate to even posit this, but if common sense prevailed and this return back on today, i imagine some of this work is still impacted. is that the case as far as you understand it? >> yeah. and again, i think as eric said, that there would be delays in rescheduling meetings and getting grants dispersed. and a lot of these things are very sensitive to deadlines and timing. so if there's a gap in funding that could end up closing down a lab or halting equipment or halting experiments, which would then have to be restarted, which is more expensive. so it's a waste of money from that sense even to delay for a few days. it could also threaten people's salaries and livelihoods. and from a business perspective, a lot of small biotech companies, which are kind of the engines of

research for pharmaceutical companies, often depend on nih grants. working with nci on clinical trials and things of that nature. and that's expected to continue because right now interest rates are high. they're expected to stay high. when interest rates are high, investment in biotech tends to go down because it's a riskier long term investment. and so government funding becomes all that more important. >> and if anyone had any doubt that retribution is on trump's mind when it comes to the titans of america's public health agencies. doctor anderson, this news also broke this week that in the new york times that doctor fauci was stripped of government security protection. fox news actually reported this year that the us marshals said that fauci had received, quote, countless death threats. a man was sentenced to three years in prison in 2022 for sending doctor fauci and other health

officials a long series of threats. so someone that even fox news has reported to be under threat. death threat is someone that donald trump singled out and targeted to be stripped of government security. your thoughts on the impact that has on public health leaders? >> chilling, to say the very least, to. and there's always debate in health care and healthy debate is a good thing. but to withdraw protection from someone that has devoted his life to saving american lives, to advancing research, to taking data and making it into action, it sends a chilling effect. why would you step forward and be a champion for public health if this is how you were treated? i think we stand on the shoulders of giants in science and in health care. but to think of these kind of threats against them is really incomprehensible. and i think to your notion of how long is it going to take to recover from this? i really

don't know how long it's going to take. >> yale daily news reports this will lose a generation of scientists. they go on to, say, 53% of grants received to fund research at the yale school of public health came from the nih, and the yale school of medicine is ranked fourth in the nation for total nih funding. quote, i'm just worried that this trend continues, that we'll lose a whole generation of scientists. eric, what is the what is the hope, i guess, for resistance, for a sector of public health that is so interconnected with federal research and federal dollars? >> yeah. as i was saying, like scientists are critically, critically dependent on nih. it is the literally the bread and butter of most universities. and to cut that off is, again, part of trump's retribution against the woke academia, i guess, and

against scientists who already told him how he endangered lives during the pandemic. i think going forward, you know, even if the funding is lifted, you know, many scientists won't be able to, you know, get their career advancing. but more publicly, i think scientists know that, you know, they can't. i think scientists are going to wake up after this moment and realize they can't just sit back and just hopefully, you know, hand out, put out their hands, you know, please, sir, can i have more in terms of begging and praying for funding? i think what they have to realize is, you know, science, you can't just pee in the wind. hopefully a policy maker will use the research. they actually have to fight back and scientists have to speak up, not be afraid of the political winds. because, you know, you know, some people say don't politicize public health, but public health is policy. policy is politics. and science right now is funding,

and funding is politics now. so this has gotten very real. and i think a lot of scientists are going to wake up. and i think the scientific community can't stand back. while misinformation, disinformation and the muzzling of science is ongoing, i think this second trump administration is truly the time when scientists will hopefully stand up and realize that they can't just rely on doing the science. they have to be public advocates. and funding for medical research. >> i mean, the other half of it are the patients who benefit from scientific research and advances, and it's a conversation that has to happen. we're going to need all of you to have it. doctor eric feigl-ding, doctor michael anderson and alex knapp, to be continued. thank you for starting us off today. we'll bring our political panel into this conversation after a short break. also ahead for us, the deportation raids have begun, what we know and what could be coming next. in another example of the cruelty being the whole

point of the second trump presidency, and later, it's only the first week we'll talk about something that's on everyone's mind these days. how are we going to do this? how are we gonna get through another four years of this? our friend dan harris will be our guest later in the hour with the answer deadline. white house continues deadline. white house continues after a quic home. it's where we do the things we love with the people we love. celebrating, sharing—living. so why should aging mean we have to leave that in the past? what if we lived tomorrow in the same place as we did yesterday? what if we stayed home instead? with help, we can. home instead. for a better what's next. i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks! —uh. —here i'll take that. [cheering] ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar and a protein blend to feed muscles up to 7 hours. ♪♪

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credits with code tv. >> i probably. >> should have told them we weren't real doctors. >> the first 100 days. >> it's a. >> critical time for our country, and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. >> settle in the rachel maddow. >> show weeknights at 9:00 on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the. bone of what we're seeing in washington. >> that day. >> turning our president of the national action network, host of politics nation right here on msnbc. the reverend al sharpton, plus host of the fast politics podcast. special correspondent for vanity fair, molly jong-fast is here. i've made this point earlier in the show, the

sadistic conduct toward the most powerful members of society. people like john bolton and mike pompeo, who were high level cabinet officials in the first trump presidency, to the most vulnerable members of our society, school children who may be in households with mixed status, all of them in trump's sights this week. >> when you look at the fact that we're only on the fourth day of his presidency. >> don't we count monday? can we say five? count money. okay. >> and he has in four days started raiding homes. that has maybe mixed in terms of whether or not they have the immigration papers or the right papers. he's defunded or halted the funding on health or on nih that we all need cancer research. we're talking about we're not talking about experimental stuff, cancer research. he has closed down the civil rights department of the department of justice, and he

has declared war on dei. and this is all before he went to bed thursday night. so when people heard many of us say what they're in for, they can now see it. and i didn't even bring up the night he was inaugurated. he gave a pardon and commuted 1500 people, some of who beat policemen, law enforcement put pieces in congress people's office and he let them walk out of jail scot free, which emboldened some nut out there to say, well, i can do what i want to do. he'll let me go. this is as bad as it gets. >> there's a restructuring of trump's presidency that i think is incumbent on all of us to be eyes wide open to. he was very sensitive to his press coverage. it animated his, you know, warlike posture against the washington post, cnn, new york times outlets. he cared very much about some programs on this

network. he's doing the most unpopular, the seediest, most loathsome things that he said he would do. but but they're the most unpopular things. changing the constitution to end birthright citizenship doesn't have majority support in this country. removing sensitive places does not have majority support in this country. pardoning insurrectionists who were violent does not have the support of a majority of americans. pardoning insurrectionists who violently attacked cops does not have the support of a fraction of this country. why? >> why, why? >> it's unpopular. and it's funny because. >> it reminds. >> me of project 2025, right? project 2020. >> all of this. was was in. >> project 2025. >> the dismantling. >> trump knew how unpopular it was. he said, i'm not going to do that. i have nothing to do with. >> right. >> exactly. >> and he said, and people were like, oh, i guess he doesn't, because these ideas are all wildly unpopular. i mean, ending birthright citizenship, taking a sharpie to the constitution,

unpopular. even elon musk is not popular. you know, these are not taking away social security and medicare, not popular. the department of education, i mean, they have their sights on that. that's in project 2025. and even like you heard him today musing about getting rid of fema, right? federal emergency management agency i mean, people need, you know, money for emergencies. all of this is very unpopular. now, the question is, how soon do people notice it? and i think that's going to be the big question here, because we are not the country we were in 2016 when americans were super tuned in. and i think it's going to be a question of when is the moment when the american people are like, oh my god. >> well, i mean, i think it's a different political exercise to a president that doesn't he? you know, one thing that folks like yourself have done, can said, you can bank on is he's so vain, he wants to be liked. that is clearly not who was sworn in.

he's someone who has been hardened by the desire for. i mean, i'm not a doctor. i don't know what hardened him, but but but he he is so devoted to the least popular and most polarizing policies that somehow that vanity has been replaced by revenge and retribution. and i wonder how that reconfigures what the opposition has to do to protect people and to and to sort of get their way back to electoral dominance as a democratic party. >> i'm not sure they can. i think that here's a guy who always saw himself and his father as an outsider, felt that they always looked down on him in the new york park avenue business world, who broke through anyway? and i came through and beat all of you guys became president, and you humiliated me. after i did all of this, you humiliated me. mug shot me, dragged me in the court like a common criminal. and it may have put him so far in the

dark side because he thought he had gotten past all of that. and they brought gravity, brought him back down. and i don't know whether it's going to take time for him to come out of that, but i don't know what the opposition can do to help him deal with this, because he couldn't even get through the inauguration without taking shots at everybody. and there's a deep bitterness. and a lot of that is because we act like he was always on the trajectory to be president. he wasn't. he was an outside guy with a bad reputation in business that had had problems with trump university, all that and made it anyway. and he thought it sanitized everything, cleaned up everything. and he ends up with four indictments and 34 felonies. that is driven him, i think, over the deep edge. >> all right. we're going to go over the deep edge and figure out what happens next. the reverend molly. stick around. when we come back, the rev mentioned it. the deportation

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free quote, call today 800 640 795. >> the problem with this is that none of these people were rapists or murderers or criminals. the problem with it is that. >> iceland in. >> there without a warrant, and.

>> we can disagree on politics. you can disagree with me about the role immigrants play in the economy of our community, but what we must agree on is that the thing that separates this country from many other countries around the world is the constitution of the united states. >> that was ras baraka, the mayor of newark, new jersey, earlier today, forcefully condemning the raids by u.s. immigration and customs enforcement in his city yesterday, where u.s. citizens, including a military veteran, were detained in what appears to be part of the opening salvo of trump's plans for mass deportations. in response to the outrage over u.s. citizens being detained, ice issued a statement that the agency may, quote, encounter u.s. citizens while conducting field work and may request identification to establish an individual's identity, as was the case today. the mayor pointing out what a dangerous precedent this would set.

>> how do you determine who's undocumented and who's a criminal? just by looking at them? that's right. and if we allow people to identify us or put us in categories of criminal or any other thing just by the way we look, then we're going back to a time that was very dangerous in this country, specifically for people that look like me. >> of course, we know that stoking hatred and cruelty has never been a deal breaker for donald trump, who seems to be willing to do anything and everything to implement his immigration promises. new york times reporting this, quote, the trump administration is giving immigration and customs enforcement officials the power to quickly deport migrants who were allowed into the country temporarily under the biden era programs. the decision indicates that president trump intends to target not just those who sneaked across the border, but even those who follow previously

authorized pathways to enter. trump's doj has also ordered legal service providers who receive federal funds to stop providing support at immigration courts. and while the arrest numbers are still below the highs of his first term, the fear alone is already causing chaos in communities all around the country. the new republic reports that the president's immigration threats are already having a detrimental impact on the u.s. food industry, with workers too afraid to show up, leaving crops to rot in the fields. one economist warning that if this continues, it could lead to, quote, a recession level event. molly and the rev are still here. >> he can you know, chaos is one of the hallmarks of trumpism. and this is unsurprising. and if you were to say that trump had a mandate, the one thing he really had a mandate was to bring down the price of eggs, right? that was to bring down the price of food. people were mad about inflation. here is something that will directly increase the

price of food. and i think that's really important. and i would say history is the guide here. when eisenhower did raids like this, they swept up lots of legal people, sent them to mexico. and you remember that trump has done better this time with latino voters. some of them even really flipped for him in places like texas, places where they may be subjected to these very same raids. >> the impact on the economy obviously isn't the biggest headline. the cruelty and the impact on communities, including young school age children, is the is the biggest human impact. but but perhaps the gravest cross pressure that he exposes himself to is the almost immediate impact on the economy. do you think that focuses the mind at all, or is he sort of too far down this road? >> i hope it focuses the mind of a lot of americans. yeah, and they would then put the pressure to get his mind right, because they're going to see abruptly when these farmers are saying

it, which we know to be true. prices going up, food rotting. this is not something that's going to happen over a period of time. it's going to be immediate. yeah. and the fact that he has said this and done this so openly with almost showmanship that he can't even push this off, saying this was coming under biden, this is him, and he's going to have to own it. and the results of it, i think is going to be devastating. it's also interesting where he wants to showcase this. he had said he was going to chicago. now he goes into newark, both black mayors of both. he wants to humiliate. and as as mayor ras baraka said, you're looking at people that look like me with a lot of people are missing. nicole is at the same time you want to say, we don't want mexicans and haitians and illegal in our country, it's america first. but i want greenland and i want canada. so,

i mean, and what are they going to contribute to the country? i mean, it's blatant race bias. i want greenland, which is mostly white, i want canada, but you guys get out of the country. even though you've been the backbone of a lot of the farming industry and all of that, it's an appeal to that bigotry, and a lot of people understand it for what it is. >> well, i mean, trump said it. he calls them bleep hole countries. right. and that's that's part of the record that we start with this time. >> and you saw with this executive order where he repealed this lyndon, this lyndon johnson stuff about, you know, the end of the day, he was trying to, you know, the executive order that johnson had had signed in 1964, fabulous leftist, far leftist lyndon johnson said that the federal government could not discriminate, right, could not discriminate, just that they could not discriminate. trump was so offended by this that it is that he had an executive order that now has undone it, which, if you think about it, is

so much what the reverend was talking about. >> but how do you say lyndon johnson, a far leftist? we were marching on him about the war in vietnam. he lost it, i. >> know. >> i mean, he lost he pulled out of the race in 68. i was like 16 years old. and i remember that. the fact is that he wants to send every race signal he can, even though the black surrogates that wt out for them were for him or donald's in florida and, and tim scott. oh, i missed it. where are they? in the cabinet. where where are they being offered? so, i mean, even when you're his guys in the black community, the reward is, oh, maybe you're getting an overflow room at the inauguration. >> where where do you think the resistance will emerge from this time? >> i think it's going to come from his own base. when i think they wake up and realize that they've been duped, when the inflation goes up, when he can't solve the situation that he said

he was going to solve, in terms of what's going on in russia and ukraine, i think it's going to all start unraveling. and i think that he is just shooting so much at so many things. he's going to turn them off. and i think you've got to keep in mind molly's point. he did not win by that much. we're talking about under 2%. it's not going to take a whole lot of people to turn around. >> to turn on him. >> on him. i've had people that were questioning me or ben, black men, that as soon as he did die and ended discrimination, they're furious. and worse than disappointing voters is to make them feel that they've been deceived and taken for granted. >> and he made a lot of promises to a lot of different people, and a lot of them are conflicting with each other. you know, i'm not sure that he can spin that. >> all right. we'll stay on this when we come back. how to get through all of it. our good friend dan harris will join us here at the table with the here at the table with the awhen you really need to sleep.

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instead, sharon said, just think about it as one moment at a time, one moment at a time that you can do. if you get stuck in projections into everything that could possibly happen in the future, it makes you less effective. all you can do is the next right thing. just do the next right thing. >> just do the next right thing. i actually wrote that down. it's not an easy thing to do though. in practice, after what feels like some of our worst fears, my worst fears come to life over the last five days all at once. in the last week, the first week of this administration. that's why our friend dan harris is back today at the table. he's host of the 10% happier podcast and former abc news anchor to help us break them all down in a way that induces less anxiety and more of a feeling of survivability. one of the things i know. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. you know, i worked at abc for 20 years, so like, you. >> never saw territory you never been in. >> yeah, well, we're so happy to

have you here. i so one of the pieces of advice you've dispensed this week is to have compassion. and if you are from a politically divided team or family, i think that works until the cruelty starts in policy and practice. and i wonder how you how you have compassion for people who don't have compassion for the most vulnerable people in our society who are now facing fear and deportation. >> i had a suspicion you were going to start with this. so let's. >> i almost. >> commented. >> i'll wait, i'll wait. >> i'll wait. let's make it. let's start with the easier part. all right. i think compassion is incredibly powerful. and let's start with being compassionate toward ourselves. if we're trying to make it through this period of time without sleep, without seeing our friends, without putting down our phones, we're going to be less effective. so i know for me, if i start by filling my own cup, to use the cliche, well, you can't pour from an empty cup, you have to

start there. so we could talk about the more difficult and controversial aspects of compassion, but i think that's a great place. >> the self-care piece. >> yeah, absolutely. it's not self-indulgent. you're useless if you haven't slept. you're useless if you're lonely. so take care of yourself. >> and yeah, i wonder what you can sort of tell us about how much is too much. and i know some of that is like self measuring if you're feeling anxiety. but just i mean, how much news have you taken in this week? >> i'm pretty careful about how much news i take in. i take in some, but i don't overindulge. and i really think this is where, as you know, i talk a lot about meditation, which boosts your self-awareness and it can help you figure out like, you know, as i've joked to you before, am i on our eight? and i'm typing in all caps on twitter? you know that maybe it's time to put the phone down. and so i think having some self-awareness, some practice that boosts your capacity to self-monitor can help you figure it out, because everybody's nervous system is different. so i'm not here with one size fits

all advice. i also want to be clear. you know, i'm mr. 10% happier. i'm not all about magical cures like this. time is difficult and i don't want to sugarcoat that. so i'm not here to say, hey, take a few deep breaths. it all goes away. i think there are little things we can do to make us marginally happier and calmer, which will, by extension, make us more effective. >> i mean, i took the advice that you had last time about not suffering alone, and i think there are we're so privileged. i mean, this is a position of privilege. and one of the privileges is you get to sort of touch and help tell the stories of the people with serious pain. i mean, the officers who face violence on that day have had the privilege of getting to talk to harry dunn and mike fanone. but i they leave and they're off the air, and i feel the anxiety that they go to bed with at night and the worries they have for their family. and how do you how do you tell the stories and sort of platform their pain and their real trauma without being traumatized all over again? yeah, i can. >> i can see. >> i. >> can see on your face that

this is difficult. i think a key thing that's helpful is to know the difference between empathy and compassion. empathy is a hardwired trait that we all have or most of us have, which is to feel other people's feelings. however, that you can get swamped in that if you're just feeling it and there's no break on it. compassion is empathy, plus the desire to help even when you can't help. so if you're watching the news and you're seeing people who are suffering, there's a little buddhist phrase you can drop in your mind, which is may you be free from suffering. and that switches the mind from overwhelm. and then a desire to unplug and tune out and numb out to leaned in, empowered, ennobled. and then even if there's nothing you can do, you can still wish that they be free from suffering. but you may also start to see in that clearer mindset, well, here's something i can do. i can send money, i can volunteer that. and as we've discussed before, action absorbs anxiety. that is the way out of

this. i think for many of us. >> jane fonda talks about that, that she had such panic about climate. and so it really she couldn't reduce the panic, but she increased her activism she increased her activism around that. we ♪♪ amazing. jerry, you've got to see this. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. stop waiting. start investing. e*trade ® from morgan stanley. home. it's where we do the things we love with the people we love. so, what if we lived tomorrow in the same place as we did yesterday? with help, we can. home instead. for a better what's next. the itch and rash of moderate to severe eczema disrupts my skin, night and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now, i have rinvoq. rinvoq is a once-daily pill... that reduces the itch... and helps clear the rash of eczema— ...fast. some taking rinvoq felt significant itch relief

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like it, is through it. and i wonder, i wonder what in the category of connection that looks like when families are divided along political lines. >> well, again, i don't want to sugarcoat it. that is really hard. there's no question about it. i think it's about finding your people. we live in this individualistic culture where we're, you know, have our noses in our phones. we're stuck in these curated information silos. we're divided, we're lonely. and i don't think it's a coincidence that we have record rates of anxiety, depression, suicide, addiction and loneliness. it can't be a coincidence. and so we're overlooking a source of happiness that surrounds us all the time, which is other people. now, there's a there's a paradox here, because other people can be a titanic pain in the butt as well. so you have to choose your people and create those relationships. if you get really intentional about that. i think it's a it's a major source of happiness and anxiety reduction. as we talked about last time, the great expression is never worry alone. >> so will you be one of our people? >> can we.

>> do this every friday. >> anytime you want? >> because we want to be. i mean, i guess, you know, our job is to hold up a mirror and to cover the story. but i think having done this once, i think it does create a lot of anxiety among a lot of our viewers. and i think some of these tools and just just being mindful about it without being woo woo feels really important. >> i'd be happy to come back. can i sit next to molly? >> always. always. and then the rev. >> and you need to calm me down. >> yeah. >> the rev was madly typing on his phone the whole day. >> i was taking notes. you may be in the middle of my sermon over here. >> we're going to do the stuff. we're going to do the things. and we won't suffer alone. thank you so much for being here. coming in. to be continued. dan harris, molly jong-fast and the reverend al sharpton. i don't know, maybe a friday thing. right, right. i love asking people on live tv. the only answer. >> they get offers. >> yes, sir. >> i've got. >> to wrap up politics nation this weekend, 5 p.m. eastern, both saturday and sunday. among his guests. newark mayor ras baraka will be there on the ice baraka will be there on the ice ra ever feel like a spectator in your own life

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