acting very. >> quickly to do. >> a lot of. >> things that are very. >> unpopular things. >> that things. >> that you wouldn't. >> say run. on as. >> your platform if you. >> were actively. >> running for office this week. >> us veterans. >> including the founder of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america, paul rieckhoff. >> started reporting. >> publicly on. >> what. >> appears to be trump's. >> new hiring. >> freeze at the va, at the veterans administration. >> quote, job offers to new. >> employees that have. >> a start. >> date after. >> february 8th. >> are now. >> being rescinded. >> this includes some folks who've already moved to new. >> cities with their families. >> doctors, nurses and counselors. this is throwing a. >> massive hand. >> grenade, rieckhoff. >> says, into the largest. >> health care system in america, one which. >> serves millions. >> of american veterans. >> it's already. >> hurting morale and retention. >> it will impact recruiting. >> at va forever. >> it is reckless and stupid.

>> and he says, quote. it's intentional. >> this is how you drive people out of. >> va and make. >> sure they don't want to work there, which for many trump. >> people has always been. >> the plan. if you want to shrink the workforce and. privatize the va. >> this is how. >> you accelerate it. >> hiring freeze. at the. >> va, affecting doctors. >> nurses, counselors, everybody. >> veterans have. >> been. >> sounding the alarm. >> on that this week. >> and then. >> look. >> hey. >> turns out sounding the alarm and. >> pushing back. >> sometimes stops. >> them from. >> doing some of the. >> worst things. >> they want to do today. >> after the. >> outcry from. >> veterans and members of congress, including. >> republicans. >> va backtracked on this. they decided. >> after it was a full. >> freeze from the beginning. >> they decided instead. now they'll exempt about 300,000 health care. >> specific jobs from. >> this freeze. >> and that. >> apparently. >> is. >> something they had not. >> intended to do. until they got a furious and. >> very public. >> pushback against what they.

>> had. >> otherwise tried to get away with. a salutary moment. >> stick a. >> pin in that right. whatever the country thought. >> they were voting. >> for when they voted for donald. >> trump for president. >> i think it's safe to say that screwing over veterans. >> and messing with. >> their health care. messing with veterans health care was probably not part of the sales pitch. right? but trump did try instituting an across the board hiring freeze at the va. so people who want to work for veterans in that system were being told, no, we're being shown the door. only outrage and public pushback backed them off. that, and when paul rieckhoff, founder of iava, again signals that this is something that folks in trump's orbit have wanted to do demoralizing, shrinking, weakening the va workforce is something they've wanted to do because they wanted to effectively get rid of the va. they wanted to privatize it. indeed, he is on solid ground in saying that trump's nominee to

run the va is doug collins. his nominee to run the defense department is pete hegseth. again, we are going to have some more news on pete hegseth coming up later this hour. but both of these nominees for the second trump term for va and for defense, both of them have crusaded to privatize the va, which means effectively ending the va because, yeah, sorry, veterans, there's money to be made here somewhere. so we're going to privatize it and get rid of the system that's been taking care of american veterans since, oh, i don't know, the 1790s. i mean, stopping doctors and nurses and counselors from working at the va, trying ultimately to get rid of the va. this is not a thing that is a popular idea among the american public. this, i don't think, is what people thought they were voting for. you know what else isn't a popular idea? bird flu. bird flu. today in long island, new york, a duck farm that has

been in operation since 1908 shut down. they had to shut down to start the process of euthanizing their entire flock of 100,000 ducks. because at that farm in long island, new york, they've got a confirmed outbreak of bird flu. and bird flu has now killed more than 130 million birds in the united states and all 50 states in 28 states. they're now testing their dairy cows for it as well, because it has jumped from birds to cows, which means one of the risk factors they're now alerting people to for this thing is consumption of or contact with raw milk as a risk factor. now for bird flu. nearly 70 people in the united states have been infected with bird flu thus far. we've even had deaths of people's pet cats because the cats have drunk raw milk meant for human consumption. the raw

milk was from cows infected with bird flu. it gave the cats the . because of all that very bad. and now very fast moving news about this new epidemic. the cdc just sent urgent guidance to american hospitals, advising hospitals that when people appear at the hospital with flu this flu season, people shouldn't just be tested for normal flu. they need to be tested for bird flu as well, because that needs to be handled differently. and anybody who tests positive for bird flu needs to be separated from other patients. hospital staff need to know about it in order to wear appropriate protective clothing to protect themselves. i say the cdc just sent that urgent advice to american hospitals, but when i say they just sent it, what i mean specifically is they sent that advice. last week, while president biden was still president, because now that president trump is president, he

has ordered that the cdc and all u.s. health agencies should no longer release any information to anyone on anything, not just to the public, but to scientists and doctors and hospitals. and that includes the cdc's flagship health alert publication for doctors and scientists called mmwr morbidity and mortality weekly report. this week, cdc was scheduled to publish several more reports, including three about this burgeoning bird flu outbreak that is happening and rapidly progressing right now. those alerts, those memoirs are not going out. they were as of last week, and what was going out as of last week was alarmin. as of this week, with trump in charge. no, he has ordered that all information be stopped, including scientific information, to advise hospitals on how to deal with this emerging epidemic. is that

popular? is that a good idea? is that is that perceived as a popular idea among the american people? is that what you thought you were voting for? you may have noticed recently at the grocery store, you might have even noticed new headlines recently about the price of eggs really jerking suddenly upward. right now, average egg prices have just shot up to nearly 40% higher than they were this time last year. that's not generic inflation. that's specifically because of bird flu. but all communications and instructions and data and information about trying to contend with bird flu, all of that has been shut down on trump's orders. so when he says, oh, the last election was all about the price of eggs, i'm pretty sure this isn't what he meant, but that's what we're getting now. while meanwhile,

trump's nominee to run health and human services for the u.s. government reportedly approached one of the nation's largest raw milk producers, asking him to please become an advisor to the fda in washington. this is a man whose company has been the subject of at least 11 different lawsuits stemming from contamination of his raw milk products. this farmer has also been the subject of 13 recalls, including for e coli and listeria and campylobacter and salmonella and, yes, bird flu in his raw milk. his products are currently barred from sale in california for making so many people sick. one salmonella outbreak his company is being sued for resulted in 171 people being sickened, including some people who got kidney failure. now we are in the midst of the most serious outbreak of bird flu we have ever had as a country, one that is rapidly growing and affects multiple species, including now humans. it is not infecting just birds, but cats and people and cows.

this is an epidemic where the cdc is advising hospitals how to deal with people coming in with flu, making sure they're tested for it, telling hospitals how they can protect patients and protect their own health workers. the cdc is warning that raw milk from an infected cow not only just drinking it, but potentially even just being splashed in the face with it. yikes. they're saying contact with raw milk from an infected cow is one of the ways people can be exposed to this emerging epidemic of bird flu. and while that is how the last administration was trying to get their arms around this emerging threat, as recently as the end of last week, this new administration this week says, first of all, let's get the raw milk people here to washington to advise the fda, presumably on all the benefits of raw milk. and in the meantime, stop releasing any information on this bird flu thing. anything. honestly, it sounds scary. maybe if we don't talk about it, maybe it'll go away. and by the way,

pay no attention to the price of eggs. the new president's decision to also issue a full and unconditional blanket pardons and commutations to people who beat and tased and shot pepper spray and bear spray at police officers on january 6th. this is also not turning out to be a popular move. polling after the election showed the american people broadly did not want him to do that. polling since the inauguration, since he's done the pardons, shows that something the american public is very much still against. it's going to stick with trump for a long time. yet it turns out that some of the people he pardoned committed their january 6th crimes as just one crime among their many crimes. and so now the courts are already having to contend with whether trump's blanket pardons for these people who committed violent crimes for him at the us capitol courts, have to decide whether these

folks have also been immunized by trump, whether trump has also rendered them unprosecutable for their non january 6th stuff like having sawed off shotguns and unregistered ar 15 seconds and illegal silencers and fragmentation grenades and all the other props and keepsakes that were eventually found with after what trump describes as their day of love. breaking windows in the us capitol building and defecating in its halls. in addition to these new cases that are about to have to be adjudicated concerning all the other crimes that trump's pardoned violent felons committed, we also today got yet more pushback from the courts against trump on this. yet another federal judge not only rebuking trump for what he did with these pardons, but actually refusing to go along with part of his de facto directive to the courts. he's told the courts they need to drop all these cases and drop it in such a way

that these charges can never be brought again. last night we told you about one federal judge who said, no, she absolutely would not do that, that trump didn't have the law on his side and she wasn't going to go along with it. now, a second judge has said the same thing. super interesting development. but i mean, here we are today, the third full day of donald trump's second term as president. and this is one of the things that's emerging. you know, democrats take note. this is not a guy who came in with a ton of political capital that he could afford to waste. he got less than 50% of the popular vote. his approval rating at the start of his term is lower than that. he's then come out of the gate doing the most unpopular thing imaginable, and it isn't something that's just going to be over and done with. it's going to stick around as a controversy and indeed get worse over months and potentially years to come, as we now have to litigate all the additional violent and weapons felonies. these guys who beat up cops, who trump nevertheless wants to like, invite to the

white house. this is somebody who is not starting with a lot of political capital and is not building up more to make himself stronger here. he, in fact, appears quite flummoxed by this whole thing. he appears quite surprised by the fact that the country, even republicans in congress, are not reacting to the pardons. the way crowds at his rallies did. oh, it turns out people don't like this idea. this is a president who's misreading the room, who doesn't have political capital to burn, and the decisions that he's making right out of the gate are things that are making him weaker and not stronger. as he starts to try and govern. so that is that is one thing that is emerging about how he's starting this second term with a series of broadly, deeply unpopular decisions that has consequences for how much he's going to actually be able to get done, because that has consequences for how much pushing back against him is going to work. the signs so far

for pushback are pretty good. look at what happened with that va hiring freeze. but there's another thing that is emerging too in this first week. and this is a different kind of mess. presidents usually make their first call to a foreign country to great britain, which is, of course, our closest overseas ally. in trump's case, of course, he did not do that. he chose for his first call saudi arabia. and there's lots of things to say about that. one thing to say about that is donald trump is currently partnering with a real estate company linked to the saudi government to build his next big trump golf course hotel thing in the middle east. and so, yeah, his first call is to the government that is helping him build his new golf course. he then placed his second call today. you might think sort of inexplicably, he placed a second call to el salvador. why was el

salvador his second call? well, presumably it's because the new president of el salvador is kind of trumpy, but who knows? it may also have something to do with the fact that he's a cryptocurrency booster. trump's good friend and his newly appointed commerce secretary manages the assets for a huge crypto firm. and that huge crypto firm, managed by commerce secretary designee howard lutnick, that huge crypto firm just announced that it's moving its headquarters to el salvador. oh, this is a firm that has faced all sorts of difficult questions from federal regulators in the biden administration about their particular, you know, fake currency being linked to the financing of terrorism and evading russian sanctions and money laundering and the sale of precursor chemicals for illicit drug manufacturing. so it's already going great, that particular cryptocurrency. but

the banker for that cryptocurrency is now going to be trump's commerce secretary. and the firm has just announced that they're moving to el salvador. and then the president of the united states made el salvador one of the first two calls he made in his new presidency. out of all the countries in the world. weird, right? trump followed that later today by an executive order directing the us government to explore the possibility of building a us government stockpile of cryptocurrency. he calls the crypto guy linked to his crypto commerce secretary, linked to the crypto commerce secretary's crypto firm. and then he makes this big announcement about the us government buying a huge stockpile of cryptocurrency. what does that mean? imagine that you collect beanie babies, little toys, you know, like

they're filled with, i don't know, pellets or something to make them seem beanie like in texture. i never really understood it. i don't know, but you love beanie babies. you collect beanie babies. one of the problems with your beanie baby collection, while you love it a lot, is that it's not valued at very much. nobody wants to buy your beanie babies. nobody wants to pay you any money for your beautiful collection. and it's not just that nobody's quite sure what beanie babies are for. part of the problem you're having with the valuation of your collection is that the market for beanie babies has developed kind of an unsavory reputation for, among other things, people getting scammed. it's become a real magnet for scammers. a lot of people have lost a lot of money and really been taken advantage of. but you've got this collection, you're kind of saddled with these beanie beanie babies now. you thought they'd be a great investment at some point, but now you're stuck with them. imagine that you then hear today that the united states government has announced that as a strategic imperative, the us

government is going to buy a huge multi-billion dollar stockpile of beanie babies because they're such a valuable commodity to trade. and america really believes in this market and really needs a ton of them, because so many people have made so much money on beanie babies. so we're going to just buy a ton of them using the resources of the us government, the largest economy in the world, to do it. they're going to buy up and stockpile hundreds of millions of dollars worth of this thing that you have. between the call to the random country that has a crypto booster as president and the announcement about the beanie baby, i mean, cryptocurrency stockpile that trump wants to explore for the us government today, crypto valuations once again shot way, way, way up. and this happened less than a week after trump

himself minted his own digital meme coin, which instantly, on paper at least made him billions and billions and billions of dollars richer than he was this time last week. the wall street journal right wing, pro-trump editorial page says trump's crypto gambit as president is a, quote, howling example of how trump is, quote, inviting trouble with what looks like remarkably poor judgment. the journal says, quote, start with who may be buying the tokens a business or foreign official with interests before the federal government might seek to curry favor with trump by announcing plans to buy millions of his token to pump up the price or worse, imagine them whispering to trump that he's made the purchases. since crypto holdings don't have to be disclosed. if trump's regulators, meaning the trump administration, then acts in a way that aids crypto or aids the person who is seeking the favor, trump will be accused of aiding

the buyer in service of presidential self-dealing. how? you know, it's the wall street journal, right? oh, yeah. the tragedy here is that he'll be accused of self-dealing. yeah. and that's the real danger here. the accusation, not the prospect that that's exactly what he will do. donald trump took over a quarter billion dollars from elon musk during the campaign and then, among other things, announced that he would put one of musk's guys in charge of nasa. musk, of course, runs a space company, so that's handy. he also just installed musk's doge organization in the white house in a way that will make its actions not subject to foia, not subject to freedom of information act requests, which means, effectively, we'll never know what they do. they also can hire anyone on any terms and at any salary, and we won't know that either. the executive order, incidentally, creating this new organization for elon

musk, trump's biggest donor, has also dropped all reference to cutting costs. remember, that was ostensibly the whole reason that elon musk was being brought into government. he was going to be like the king of austerity. he was going to cut trillions of dollars out of the government. well, that's not part of the executive order creating his agency. nothing about cutting costs, nothing about cutting waste, fraud or abuse. none of that. in fact, we have no idea what he's going to be doing there. and under the rules by which they've created this thing, we won't be allowed to know what he's doing there either. sweet gig, especially if you're already getting billions of dollars from the us federal government. donald trump is back to receiving uninterruptedly obsequious, obsequious media coverage from our friends at fox news. he has stuffed his administration full of a comically large number of people who work at fox, and now his

hand-picked fcc chairman just announced that he would revive broadcast complaints against all the other three major broadcast networks. but not against fox. trump's son's girlfriend will be an ambassador to greece. trump's son in law's father will be ambassador to france, a secret service agent who's a member of trump's personal secret service detail is the person he just chose to be director of the entire u.s. secret service for of trump's personal defense attorneys are being installed in the four top jobs in the us department of justice. so there's this other thing that's going on, right? one thing that's going on is he's doing a lot of things that are really unpopular, which is weakening him politically. it means that he's ripe for pushback, and it means that republicans ought to be able it ought to be possible

to sort of wedge other republicans in washington apart from him, while he continues to do things that they find indefensible and they don't want to answer for. so that's interesting. there's also this other thing going on and all those other things that i just described. none of them are popular, but they all seem to be sort of a different kind of thing as well. and one of the ways to think of it, one of the names that political scientists and political economists put on this kind of thing is the personalization of government, right? people with connections to trump, things that relate the government doing things that relate to trump personally, the government doing things and trump doing things as president that have an impact on people who are personally connected to him. this government under this president is shaping up to be less a rule of law thing and more a sort of club. right. how

well do you know trump? how close are you by blood or marriage or money to trump? were you jared kushner's roommate in college? well, you could be america's hostage envoy. did you spend a quarter billion dollars on trump's campaign? okay, well, would you like nasa in a bowl or on a plate? would you like a fork or just a straw to slurp it up? i'm considering changing my position 180 degrees on crypto. i used to talk about it as fake and a scam and a ponzi scheme. now i'm promoting it with all the power of the u.s. government. and yeah, i don't feel embarrassed at all about the fact that that has happened in the immediate aftermath of the crypto coin, with my name on it. it's the personalization of policy making, and the shamelessness of it is part of the point, right? part of what you're advertising is that in order to get anything from this government, you better have some personal connection to trump. you better do something for him.

the personalization of the government, which they do not treat as a scandal, they treat as their system. you can tell which arguments are going to win, which positions are going to get adopted, and which people are going to be put in place based on the personal and business connections of the people involved. to the one guy at the top who is already not showing himself to be interested in doing things that are particularly popular. it's not like he feels constrained by public opinion here, right? price of eggs. anybody pardons for people who beat up cops? cutting the va, cutting health care. he doesn't appear to care about doing very unpopular things. he doesn't care about public opinion. what he cares about is the personal things, the personal connections for the personal connections for people who can do to my son, i've never been the cool dad. i always wanted to know what he's up to online. but with tiktok's privacy settings being on by default for teens under 16, accounts are set to private. he cannot send or receive dm's, and only his friends can comment.

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paso. >> the palisades. >> from msnbc world headquarters. >> stay up to date on the biggest issues of the day with the msnbc daily newsletter. sign up for msnbc daily at msnbc. com. >> over the course of this week, thus far, over the course of these last few days, we've been trying to keep an eye on where the bumps in the road are, where the friction comes from, where the things are, what things are happening in the country that might make the things that trump wants to do harder to do. and along those lines, there's news tonight from another power center in this country, a power center that sits sometimes uncomfortably alongside our political system. but it's one that when it's at its best, it can be a source of deep moral suasion, deep moral force. when

we think about the constraints on the powerful in this country, we think about things that might stop people from doing bad things that might persuade people to turn back, change their minds. when we think about what's available to us as a country, things that might instill some bravery in those who are weak or wavering or afraid. and we think about things in our country that can move public opinion and move public attention. don't sleep on religion as one of those things in this country. and i mean that in the broadest possible sense. i mean, just generally speaking, organized religious life in america in all of its stripes. this was this weekend in chicago. today. priests on chicago's southwest side held a mass to stand in solidarity with local immigrants. community members filled the pews of saint rita of cascia parish in chicago. lawn. >> it's really.

>> important to be present, to let people know not. >> only that we're praying with them. >> but will. >> be there. >> you know, wherever we can to support them. >> priests blessed pastoral packs for families who may face deportation. the packs include a prayer shawl, a rosary and a statue of the patron saint of immigrants. well, that catholic parish in chicago stood up for and stood up with its immigrant members. this weekend, their archbishop gave a big chicago broad shouldered speech in mexico city on the same day, calling the trump administration's plans for mass deportations targeting chicago, quote, an affront, saying the catholic community in chicago would not stand for it. the new catholic archbishop of washington, who was just named to the post by the vatican. he also has said that mass deportations of the type described by the by the trump campaign during the campaign and now by the trump administration

now that inauguration has happened, he has described those mass deportation plans as incompatible with catholic doctrine. again, this will be the arch. this is the new archbishop of washington, d.c. he says the church will fight with all it has to stop those mass deportations. and it isn't just the catholic church. you know, in trump's first presidential term, hundreds of churches responded to his inauguration almost immediately by declaring themselves to be sanctuaries for immigrants and immigrant families who needed help and needed shelter. in los angeles, the episcopal diocese of los angeles. in the summer of 2017, they declared themselves a sanctuary diocese for immigrants. that's a diocese with 150 congregations in los angeles alone in 2019. two years later, the entire evangelical lutheran church nationwide declared itself a sanctuary church body that's 9000 congregations nationwide and 3.5 million members. yesterday, we

saw the national leaders of the episcopal church in america, which is a huge church in america. we saw the national leaders of the episcopal church send a letter to their membership explicitly opposing trump's mass deportation plans and more than that, calling on their millions of members to contact their member of congress and tell their member of congress to oppose trump's plans, quote, to our siblings who are at risk of deportation or of being separated from those you love, know that your story is our star, our our story and your dignity is inseparable from our own. we stand with you and we will face these challenges together. it's yesterday from the national episcopal church. also yesterday, the episcopal bishop of washington, dc looked into the front row of the national cathedral in washington during the national prayer service, looked into the eyes of the incoming president, and very

calmly, very clearly gave us the illustrated dictionary definition of what it means to speak truth to power. >> let me. >> make one. >> final plea. >> mr. president. millions have put their trust in you. and as you told the nation yesterday, you have felt the providential hand of a loving god. in the name of our god. i ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now. >> you played a lot of this sermon for you last night here on the show. it was played all over the country. it ran on autoplay on the front page of the washington post, literally by the overnight hours last night, president trump had responded by demanding an

apology by calling bishop mariann edgar buddy a, quote, so-called bishop, and by insulting her in personal terms. all right, big guy. today, of course, what has followed has been a day of threats and invective directed against bishop buddy from the president's supporters, including what she describes as lots of death threats. nothing is inevitable. nothing that they want to do necessarily just gets done. they have to do it. and you don't necessarily know what every action will cause in terms of an equal and opposite reaction. none of us know where grace or power or bravery or hard work or luck might come together to change the course of where the country is going to render, for example, as a debacle. some of the worst ideas, or to change minds or

change hearts about what might otherwise seem a fait accompli. bishop mariann edgar buddy. yesterday at the at that prayer service, she surprised everyone at the national cathedral. if that tells us nothing else, it should tell us that we should all be ready and open to more surprises that might come from surprises that might come from very surprising places. bishop dry eyes still feel gritty, rough, or tired? with miebo, eyes can feel ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ miebo is the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one cause of dry eye: too much tear evaporation. for relief that's ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ remove contact lenses before using miebo. wait at least 30 minutes before putting them back in. eye redness and blurred vision may occur. ♪ miebo ♪ ♪ ohh yeah ♪ ask your eye doctor about prescription miebo.

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whisker family and try a litter robot today. >> they may not be citizens or have the proper documentation, but the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. they pay taxes and are good neighbors. they are faithful members. >> of our. >> churches and mosques, synagogues and temples. i ask you to have mercy, mr. president, on those in our communities whose children fear that their parents will be taken away. >> that was the episcopal bishop of washington yesterday at the national cathedral, talking directly to the president, directly eye to eye about compassion, humility, kindness, honesty, honoring the inherent dignity of every person, talking to him about respect, about mercy. this is not his usual bailiwick. it is hers, though.

joining us now is the right reverend mariann edgar buddy. she's the episcopal bishop of washington, dc. bishop. buddy, i really appreciate you making the time. i know you have a lot of options where to be and i appreciate you being here. >> it's great to. >> be here. thank you. >> what made you decide to make that appeal the way you did? to ask him for mercy in that way? >> well, as i was, as you summarized so well as i was thinking about at the end, toward the end of my preparation, the pillars of unity, it struck me that that i was missing one and that one, that last one was mercy. to have mercy and compassion. and rather than stated in sweeping terms, i thought i would acknowledge to the president, acknowledge that he had come to the highest office of the land, that he had. millions of people had entrusted him with this power, and. >> i. >> wanted to make, as you heard a plea, a request that he

broaden his characterization of the people that are are frightened now and are at risk of losing everything. and i, i thought that that would be the more respectful way to say it and also to appeal to not only the president, but to all who might be listening, to appeal to what we know to be true about our immigrant neighbors, who they are, the kind of people that we're blessed to be among, and to remember them in our understanding of what it means to be america. >> your opportunity in that moment to minister directly to the president is a very unique moment. i know that you've been the you've been the bishop in washington for a long time, and you were there for his first inaugural as well. but i wanted to ask about the broader

question of the role of the church right now in moral leadership. in this moment. we have seen the catholic church, the episcopal church, elements of the lutheran church, other congregations all over the country, very diverse types of churches offer themselves, for example, as as sanctuaries for people who are facing deportation. what do you see as the role of the church in in in helping lead the public and helping us understand what our moral responsibilities are right now? >> right. >> that's a great question. i would say the first and primary role that we have is by example, you know, to take the teachings of our faith, to welcome the stranger, to love as we've been loved, to be compassionate and to live that out in in real terms with real people in our communities. so that's that's foundational. and then when given the opportunity to speak. to speak and to be at times a conscience, at other times a

consolation to be present, ministering or pastoring the common good. and so it takes many forms. it depends on the moment. we're in a particularly harsh moment now when it comes to conversations around immigrant populations in our midst. and so that was the reason for the for the tone i took now. but it could have been a very different tone in a different context, depending on depending on how compassion needs to be manifest in a given time. >> even before we had the sort of and you wouldn't use these terms, but i'll use it sort of nasty reaction from the president in the overnight hours in which he demanded an apology from you and insulted you in personal terms, even even before we got that reaction from him, a lot of people were describing what you did as brave, and i wanted to get your reaction to that. i mean, as a as a high ranking church leader who's been

doing this job for a long time, i imagine that speaking in public isn't difficult to you, and speaking on difficult truths isn't difficult for you. but what do you make of the fact that i think a lot of people are feeling are seeing in you a form of courage that they hoped they would have themselves? >> well, just a slight correction. i'm i'm afraid every time i step into a pulpit. right. it's that really never goes away. large or small, it doesn't matter. it's a huge responsibility, tremendous vocation. and how many people get that amount of time and interrupted speech. right. so it's a it's a really big deal. and i take it i take it very seriously every time. so yeah, i was nervous, i was scared. i think perhaps the reason why it had the effect that it did is because for a while now, there has been very little. public. there hasn't been much of a narrative outside of the narrative that the president has

been describing, right? that if people have gone quiet or they've been ignored. and so this was a moment, you know, and i had no idea who was paying attention. i mean, the inauguration was the day before there. you know, there weren't that many people in the cathedral. it wasn't crowded. it was a group of people who had gathered at his at his invitation. but it wasn't something that was in the in, in public discourse. and so i think in some ways that was perhaps the reason why it had the effect that it did. it is also an audacious thing to address anyone directly in from the pulpit. i typically do that for weddings, you know, when you talk to a couple for. >> do you know. >> what i mean for funerals, you talk to the, you know, to the family you're seeking to console. this was a service of prayer for unity for the country. but it was on the occasion of the inauguration of a president. and if you go back to other sermons in those moments, there's almost always a word to the president. so it wasn't unusual in that way. but in the particular moment we're

in it, it filled a space that hadn't been occupied for a while. >> bishop, buddy, i'd like to just ask you one last question, and i'll give you from the outset an opportunity to not answer this if you don't want to, because it's perhaps not fair of me, but we did get that nastygram from the president in the middle of the night, in which he did insult you and demand an apology. and i know i've seen remarks that you made today that you've received a lot of not just invective, but threats, including death threats over the course of today since that happened. and i would just ask if you wanted to respond either to the president or to the people who have wished you ill in response to this? >> well, i've been i've had people wish me dead. i'm not sure if they've threatened to kill me, but they seem to be pleased if i met my eternal destiny sooner rather than later. and i would simply say i, you know, i was trying actually to encourage a different kind of

conversation that you can certainly disagree with me. you can disagree with what i've said or did, but could we as americans and fellow children of god, speak to one another with respect? i would offer the same to you. i would i would listen to your views and i would honor them. but we can. we don't have to go to the highest extremes of contempt when we are in a position of, of disagreement. and i think if we could get that back as a country, we would go a long way in being able to work together to the to address the together to the to address the many problems that we face. (luke) that's why we do it, marci. (marci) it really makes all the effort worth it. gathering the most in-depth info, making a clean, new homes-dot-com that improves home-shopping, creating a better way for people to... (luke) ...people to find the perfect home to build their lives. (marci) are you okay? (luke) no, it's... it's the dust-based allergy. oh, there's another one! (marci) that's why we do it. isn't it... got a lot of dust in your... (luke) it's so dusty. (marci) yeah.

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