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>> of more. >> get started at worthy com. >> hi there everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. here we go. another day, another. test for lawmakers and the judicial branch. we are talking about the unprecedented and arguably unconstitutional move by donald trump to turn off the spigots of government funding for virtually everything. it came. >> in the. >> form of a late night, two page letter from donald trump's office of management and budget

calling for, quote, ending wokeness and cutting off federal funds for, quote, marxist equity, transgenderism and green new deal social engineering. end quote. that's what the memo said. but what it does is slam. >> the. >> brakes on federal funding that touches virtually every aspect of. american life and every american family, and not just down the road. at some point in the future, a fight we can have later. >> it does it right. >> now. >> one hour. >> from right now. >> in fact, at 5 p.m. eastern. and in such sweeping but nonspecific vague terms that the wall street journal reports the memo has, quote, sowed widespread confusion, prompting government officials, lawmakers, nonprofits and others to parse through down to the footnotes to try to understand which programs would be halted, leaving, quote states and local governments scrambling to assess the impact of a broad and far reaching order by the white house to pause hundreds of billions in federal grants, loans and other

financial assistance programs pending a review by the trump administration. that's the bureaucratic confusion and chaos. but what makes the stakes so very high is how this will be felt in the lives of real people, real american families, real voters who fear that they're about to have the proverbial rug pulled out from under them. >> calls are flooding in just sheer panic that at 5:00 tonight, the funds that they count on, whether it's for our schools. title one. >> whether it's our. >> hospitals who are doing research. whether it is our community health centers who are providing care for people in line right now in rural communities in my state, whether they will be able to provide those. services tomorrow. >> as we. >> stand here today, people should. think about the. mom who doesn't. >> know. >> if she. >> can get her kid to child. >> care today. >> or they should. think about the. >> teenager in.

>> a cancer. >> study. >> hoping beyond. >> hope that that's. >> going to. >> save his life. >> or they. >> should. think about the people. >> from minnesota. >> when last. >> week, on. >> the day of that inauguration. >> it was. >> minus six degrees. >> who depend on heating assistance. >> the scope. >> of the damage. that will be done is enormous. >> to poor kids who rely on head. start programs. >> to families. >> who need. who desperately. >> need that cancer research done to veterans who, if they miss 1. >> or 2. >> appointments, their life falls apart. >> we are. >> getting phone calls and. emails from. our constituents, people. back in our state, and the word that everyone. >> uses is chaos. >> and as i've been. >> thinking about it, i'll be honest with you, chaos is. >> the point. >> because chaos. >> is their plan. >> the idea that this is going to. >> cut off funding, put in jeopardy, and. >> throw into chaos people with

disabilities, seniors, the people with healthcare. needs is cruel. but again, that's. >> the point. >> cruel. chaotic. >> confusing. a veteran who misses an appointment, quote. their life then falls apart. that's what trump has done already. importantly. >> it also. >> has absolutely no basis in law. there's no legal right to do this. a judge is right now weighing a request by advocacy groups representing nonprofits and small businesses to block the trump administration's funding freeze. a coalition of attorneys general from seven states are considering legal options beyond the legal ramifications. the alarms about what this means for our very democracy are sounding, and they, too, are deafening. >> this is. >> an attempt. >> by donald trump. >> to seize power. >> this is what. >> a king does. >> this is not. >> how a democracy works. >> one man does. not decide.

>> how taxpayers money. >> is. >> spent so. >> that it only gets sent to the president's political friends. >> and it. >> gets used. >> to punish. his political enemies. the president wants. >> you to be. >> distracted by. >> the day to. >> day announcements. >> but put. >> together the pardoning of the violent rioters, the. firing of the inspectors general. >> and today. the stoppage of federal. >> funding. >> leaving the decision only to. >> the. >> political whims. >> of president. >> trump. represents the gravest. >> most. >> serious constitutional. >> crisis of. >> our lifetime. >> one that. >> threatens to. >> undermine the very premise. of american democracy. >> senator chris murphy will be our guest later in the broadcast. and if liz cheney has warned very publicly that america could very well

sleepwalk into dictatorship with the reelection of. >> donald. >> trump, with this unprecedented move by the trump administration to suddenly cut off funding, it's fair to ask right now whether america is speed walking into, if not dictatorship, something a lot less than a functioning democracy. it's where we start today with democratic senator tim kaine of virginia, who has condemned forcefully today's move, calling it a reckless and illegal order and citing specifically hurricane recovery efforts in his state and economic recovery projects that could be at risk. senator, your reaction to what's happening and your latest intelligence about everything that has impacted nicole? >> i'll give you the intelligence. because calls are coming in from. >> around. >> virginia. >> from child. >> care centers that worry that their funding is being cut off to the center or to parents who need it to help their kids with child care. >> to universities. >> that are doing medical research, who are, you know,

billing the research institutions like the nih for the research they're doing, unsure whether they will get a reimbursement. i've got a nonprofit in virginia that specializes in helping low income people and seniors apply for medicaid. some of their staff are funded by. >> a. >> federal grant. they think those. >> staffers will. >> potentially lose their jobs. >> veterans yesterday told me they had been unable to access the va. portal for even getting medical appointments at the va, and i have a brand new va clinic. scheduled to open in fredericksburg in february. the opening date is still scheduled, but they believe they're under a hiring freeze and can't hire the staff that they need to serve veterans in that population. this is all real time worries coming in from virginians. it is an illegal order. >> the budget act of 1974. >> and the constitution basically say. that the budget is congressional. it's an article one power. once we do an appropriations deal and we. >> reach a.

>> deal that is signed by the president, the executive has to spend those funds in accordance with the budget. the president can't. unilaterally decide. no. there's a budget. >> document. >> but i'm going to ignore it. >> but. >> nicole, i really want to focus on this last thing. what the president is doing is not only illegal, it's not only chaotic and damaging to virginians, it's betraying a deep insecurity. and let me explain why. as you know, we're working on a. budget deal right now. the republicans kicked the budget to march 14th. the president has two republican houses. if he wants to cut the budget, he's got. majorities in both houses. he could. >> just work with them to do it the. >> lawful way. >> reach a. >> budget that matches the trump priorities. over the course of the next six weeks. the fact that he's not doing. >> that. >> that he's using this illegal, unilateral executive strategy means he doesn't have confidence that the republican leadership in both houses will go along with the extremity of the

actions that he's taking. >> that should tell us something. >> well, it feels like that is a very plausible scenario. the other if you've watched the republicans lately, and i know you have your committee and you had to contend with the hegseth nomination, maybe he's breaking the law because he can. how do you adapt to that circumstance? >> well. you have to rely first on courts. there is a number of attorney generals and other organizations that are in the courts today challenging what the president has done. but we also need to, as citizens, speak out. please call your member of congress. call your senator. i've been going out my office phone number all day to virginians. call your member of congress and your senator, especially if they're republicans, and tell them that the president should not. >> be able to. >> shut the portal. >> for medicaid applications. close off people's ability to get service at the va, shut. down funding for. child care or medical research. if our republican colleagues in

congress hear loud and clear from constituents that, hey, don't do this. they showed, for example, a couple of weeks ago, the furor around nominating matt gaetz for. >> the. >> attorney general was a bridge too. >> far for them. >> and that's. why the trump administration and gates had to withdraw that nomination. so in that instance, we got three republicans to vote against pete hegseth. for secretary. >> of defense. >> that's almost unheard of. it wasn't enough. we needed four, but we did get votes. if the public reaches. >> out to these republican. >> members and expresses their. outrage over these actions, there's a chance that we can turn it around. we'll fight it in the courts. we'll fight it on the floor of congress. but it's really important for us winning the fight for us to hear the stories of everyday americans. >> who are affected by. >> these orders. we're already hearing them in the dozens and soon to be hundreds. >> in. >> my office. please make sure republican members are hearing the same thing. >> i would love to make sure anyone watching that is hearing stories of being impacted has

all that information. we'll get that from your office and put up all the numbers through all of our social media as well. please do i wonder i wonder, yeah, i mean, because i think that what what you're dealing with in this first, it's the first post-partisan, manufactured crisis of the trump presidency. i think that the deportations have an element of that as well, in that trump is not doing what he said he was going to do. he is sweeping up people who are simply in the country illegally on purpose. that's a civil offense. and this is an example of doing something that, yes, i did read the crosstabs, as did andrew weissmann, who's sitting here. project 2025. but this is not something that his voters were prepared for. and i wonder if you can say more about how your own constituents rely on everything you've named child care centers, university research veterans, the va, the portals. i mean, can you confirm what senator ron wyden said,

that the medicaid portals in all 50 states are down? he said that in today's new. >> york times that that. >> that is. >> i've heard that from numerous of my colleagues. we've reached out to the virginia department of medicaid assistance. they have not confirmed that yet. in virginia, we have a republican governor in virginia who. >> thus. >> far has been praising of president trump not willing to call him out. i should have the confirmation about the medicaid. portal in virginia. >> by the end. >> of the day. i suspect it is also closed down. we need republican governors standing with us. we need republican mayors standing with us. but we especially need these members of congress because they're kind. >> of blithely. >> acting like, oh, it's temporary and it's not going to they put out a word today. it's not going to affect people directly receiving services. well, then why am i hearing about va appointments that can't be scheduled? why am i hearing about child care of services that can't be provided? why am i hearing about these direct services so people sharing stories is really, really important and we're not going to

let this go. it's going to be a battle that will fight on the on the fight on the floor of the senate as well as in the courts. and we're not going to rest till. >> we get this turned around. >> but but that that nicole, you made a good point. it's not what the trump voters expected. i mean, give you another example. last week he announced an energy emergency because we want to be a great energy producer. well, we are a great energy producer. but what virginians are seeing is energy innovation projects and wind. >> and solar. >> and battery technology that we're celebrated. >> by our. >> republican governor and our legislative delegation a few months ago now being called into question, donald trump's energy emergency so far is a job killer. >> it's unjustified. >> it's hurting the environment. it's a giveaway to big oil. so you have to watch. >> not only what. >> he says. >> but sometimes what he says he's doing. >> the underlying actions are doing the precise opposite. and we're going to have. >> to tell that story. again and again to the american people. >> senator tim kaine, we will

always welcome you back. we will get all the information we can out to your constituents and any citizen impacted by these fires. senator tim kaine, thank you for starting us off. i want to bring in managing editor of the bulwark, msnbc contributor sam stein, here with me at the table for the hour, former congressman, msnbc political analyst david jolly and msnbc legal analyst, former top official at the department of justice, andrew weissmann. i name checked you as being the only other nerd who read. we had our copies of our summer reading. we had our copies with the yellow stickies on it. project 2025 i don't remember seeing this text of this executive order that stopped all government functions, and i and i sometimes wonder with the trump folks, if we over projected or overlaid onto them competence. or do you think this is what they intended? >> well. >> i think everyone thought at least i'd say. i thought that. they were going to and they were

projecting. >> no pun intended. that they. >> had their ducks in a row. >> and they were going. >> to be more efficient. we talked before the. >> show started about how. you look at. the muslim ban and that, as people. >> may remember, was really. >> ham handed. >> hurt lots. >> of people immediately, and only eventually. >> got to a. >> form that could be held to be constitutional. >> there was no question. >> that when sally yates said, i'm. >> not enforcing. >> it, she. >> had every. >> reason to. >> think that it would have been found to be unconstitutional. >> and everyone thought, okay, well, now they have so much time to. get it right. >> and we they're not. >> so here. >> you have i. >> mean, i think cruelty. was exactly the. right thing. you have a ham. handed approach to the idea that. >> that voters would have been okay with just. >> saying. >> oh, by the. >> way. we're going to cut off all medicaid. >> we're going to cut. >> off all funding. >> in all 50 states. >> and by the way.

>> that's hurting. >> republicans and democrats. i mean, that is that's just cruel. >> if you've. >> got an issue with some parts of it, deal with that. but this was like the muslim ban. it's just needless. >> harm we. >> already have with respect to birthright citizenship. we have a judge who is. >> appointed by a reagan, the reagan presidency. nominated him and he said, not just. >> i rule against you. >> he said it. >> was blatantly. >> unconstitutional and asked, where were. >> the lawyers at. >> the time that this was done? you have lawsuits. that are. >> going. >> to be filed, i'm sure, with respect to the. firing of civil servants. but you to be clear, what. >> you have is. >> you have the person who is the head law enforcement officer. >> of this country. >> the acting attorney. >> general, who said, i am. firing civil. >> servants with no cause, that is against the law. and this is the final part about sort of where we are is not just so much about. trump and what he's doing, but we just listened to

tim kaine, this honorable. >> man. >> pleading with the public to let his republican colleagues hear their voice about. >> what's happening. just think. >> about what that is. >> that is. >> please make sure that people in congress. >> will get some backbone to enforce. the law. >> these are congressional statutes. he says. this is things that are. >> not legal. and he has a problem with. >> his republican. >> colleagues not. >> enforcing those rules. >> i guess what, i'll ask you what i asked him. trump, in his own mind, has a mandate. i'm not sure when my half percentage point is a mandate. in fact, i don't think it is. but why he has so much power, almost unchecked with the absolute subservience of republicans. why do all of these illegal things? >> so to me, that is. >> you said this is the issue. >> that i always have because. >> i'm. >> you know, i'm a i'm a

rational institutionalist, or at least i think i am. and so i. >> impose on everything that. >> i. >> see thinking. >> well, why, what's the logical reason for it? and i'm not. sure that. >> one can do that here. >> i think that the point that that kim was making. >> about this is the. >> cruelty is the point, the illegality. and what are you going to. >> do about it. >> is the point, in other. >> words. so you. >> fire. >> i. >> mean. >> to put it now into my world, you fire career people. they may very well win their lawsuit. >> i suspect. >> that they will. if they bring a suit, they will win it. >> but who cares? >> the message is sent. >> the chill is done. yeah, yeah. all right. we're going to bring david and sam in on the other side of a very, very short break today. lots of news that we're tracking also ahead for us, a scorching rebuke from robert f kennedy jr. s cousin caroline kennedy, ahead of his confirmation hearing tomorrow morning. she called him a predator in this letter and warns about how dangerous it

would be to put him in charge of life and death situations. and later in the broadcast, arrests and deportation raids. picking up this week, the white house confirming how broad the sweeps have become, arresting many more people than just the violent criminals. we'll get to all that and much more when deadline and much more when deadline white house what the biggest companies deliver is an exceptional customer experience. what makes it possible is unmatched connectivity and 5g solutions from t-mobile for business. t-mobile connects 100,000 delta airlines employees, powers tractor supply's stores nationwide with reliable 5g business internet, and partners with pga of america on game changing innovation. this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business. i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... —yeah? —yes! ...this year, we are finally updating our kitchen... ...doing subway tile in an ivory, or eggshell... —cream?... —maybe bone?... don't get me started on quartz.

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parents would be kicked out of a nursing home. wondered whether or not the research that is so critical to keeping their child alive at nih would continue. >> david jolly, just explain where the power comes from. >> sure, sure. >> i spent 20 years with. >> the appropriations. >> committee, served on the. >> appropriations committee. you see actions like this from a lot of. white houses. what you don't see is. >> the. >> raw violation of the. >> impoundment act. >> and the violation of the. >> article two take care clause. >> which is what we saw from donald trump. what he has. >> done is illegal. >> and. >> in the incompetence. of how he. did it, he reveals the cruelty, right? >> this is an. >> attack on wokeism. >> and gender. >> ideology and all these. >> other reasons. >> his justification. >> for it is what. >> makes it illegal. >> so under. >> the. >> impoundment act, as. >> senator kaine really. >> really put a. fine point on, once an appropriation. >> bill is. >> signed into law by. >> the. >> president, signed, it's considered a temporary spending. >> bill because. >> it expires after one year. >> but the. >> president has.

>> to spend that money. >> on the activity. >> it's appropriated for. now. >> what donald trump has. suggested is, well, the last administration. >> policies are different than mine. >> that's not actually. >> a legal justification. there are very few narrowly tailored. >> justifications for a president to. >> say. >> i'm not going to. >> spend the money. >> the closest. >> one he could get to is. >> efficiency capturing, capturing. new efficiencies. >> but even. >> then. >> he has to. >> send. >> to congress a notification. >> he either has to request to rescind the money, or he has to say i'm pausing it based on efficiency. >> would be the. >> closest thing he could get to. he didn't. what he said. >> is i'm spending. >> i'm not going to spend the. money because i don't. like these policies that are currently in place. and much like the muslim ban, it showed. the incompetency of an administration that doesn't know the law. >> or is willing. >> to violate the constitution. and it revealed the cruelty of stopping medicaid payments and child care payments and all of these other issues. and where it really. implicates a. >> lot of. >> these state based agencies is anyone that administers a grant. so a local human. >> services agency.

>> that does refugee resettlement or a block grant. >> to a. >> state for. medicaid services, they. >> don't know what to do now. >> and some. >> of these. >> agencies aren't sure. >> if they can. >> pay payroll. >> they're not allowed to do that because they can't obligate federal funds towards that. i don't know. >> if they will. >> fix this like they fix the muslim ban. >> there's a narrow. >> way to do this. >> but but senator kaine's. >> point is really important here. all this is coming to. >> a head. >> in march, because in march, republicans own all. of these decisions for themselves, because what donald trump could have said is he could have issued guidance saying going forward, any new grant applications or any renewals will now have to abide by my executive orders and my policies. you could probably. >> get away. >> with that. but you can't do is say we're going to freeze already. executed funding because i disagree with it. it's a violation of the law that republicans are refusing to stand up to today. and good for all the senators for calling out not just the incompetence, but the cruelty. >> that is underlying all. >> can i ask? i mean, isn't this what he was impeached for? for refusing? this is ukraine. give

ukraine. this is exactly. >> exactly what. >> he was. >> impeached for. this was this was saying, i'm not going to execute ukraine unless they do an investigation. but he got away with it. he got away with it. and you know, look, senator or congressman tom cole is the chairman of the appropriations committee, a republican who is. >> a. >> really he's an institutionalist. i always respected him for how he approached it. he's somebody that could have been a speaker or filled in after mccarthy. he said, today, i'm not too worried about it because appropriations aren't really law. appropriations are expiring law. maybe he's got a little bit there, but the impoundment act is the law. and the constitution says the president has to has to faithfully execute the laws that have been enacted. and if the message from republicans is to just do the jig and shake and say, look over here, we are in a lot of trouble. >> we are in a lot of trouble. i think they're doing, quote, david jolly, quote, jig and shake at doral. they're the golf club that they're all gathered at. sam stein, this is from your reporting, quote, the breakneck

speed of trump's orders could quickly turn into an acute constitutional crisis, with the executive branch essentially usurping the power of the purse from the legislative body. certainly, it has already had a profound political and psychological effect. federal employees described utterly dispirited workplaces where paranoia is creeping in. but it's also not hard to see how the tremors being sent throughout the government could hurt trump in the long run. explain. >> well, first of all. >> david did. >> an excellent job explaining, i it's almost hard to follow that. >> that was so eloquent. >> it's always hard to follow either. >> the nerdy stuff. >> nothing. nothing. it's andrew either. >> yeah. >> nothing against andrew either. >> that was. >> very eloquent. >> too. >> but to the point. >> look. >> what we're seeing. >> today is. >> how it. >> could backfire. >> on trump. >> so let's just. >> take, for. >> instance the medicaid portal situation. >> so the medicaid. >> portal situation essentially is this. i'll try. to condense it, but more or less states contribute a portion of the funds into this medicaid disbursement system. the federal government contributes a lot. if you. >> cannot access.

>> the federal government funds, you cannot pay people. who are there to administer medicaid, physicians, hospitals, etc. what states tend to have the most percentage of people on medicaid? >> red states. >> mississippi red. >> states. >> poor states? >> those people. >> tend to. >> vote more republican, and they are going to notice at some point in time that the services that they've come to depend on the government for are. >> no. longer there or. >> no longer reliable. this is not just true of medicaid, which i should note. the white. house has quickly moved to say, oh, this is being cleaned up. it was a processing issue, don't worry about it. which to me suggests that they recognize the acute political problems here, but it's across the board, right? you have people who rely on the veterans administration who are not going to get access to care. you have people. who and i. >> and i saw this. >> online over the weekend, people who are in clinical cancer research trials that are. >> funded by the. >> nih, who no longer can. >> actually get. >> access or are concerned that they may not. >> get access. >> to those research trials. head start meals on wheels any

food assistance. those don't just affect democrats. >> they affect. >> republicans too. >> and so at. >> some point in. >> time, events begin to intervene and they begin to impact politics. >> and while. >> trump can and is acting in this all powerful manner, and while he's testing. >> the limits. >> of what our legal system and our courts can do, and while he will win a lot of these battles, eventually. >> the political. >> pressure starts to. >> turn the other. >> way and he begins to harm his own voters. and also, people get tired of the chaos and they get exhausted by it as well. >> let me just add to what you're saying, an observation i've had in the last 24 hours from pinging democrats and frankly, inviting them on this show. what trump has done, again, wittingly or unwittingly, is to completely resuscitate the democratic party. they were flatlined spiritually. politically. right? basically, since since the election night.

and what he has done is they have suddenly woken up. they remember why they're there. they're there to make government work the way it's supposed to work. they're there to keep their promises to all voters, whether they voted for them or not. and the thing that you just outlined, what trump has done is republican governors know whether they'll go on fox and say it or not. who knows? but republican governors are going to have to align themselves with the members of congress who see the law the way david and andrew just articulated, because republican governors had a have a bleep ton of voters who would like their services, funded their cancer research, and republican governors are a lot closer to their constituents. sometimes they're their neighbors. they can show up. i mean, they're going to want to know why. why the veterans affairs mental health appointment they drove three hours to and waited two months for was suddenly canceled because of a political stunt. and what trump has done is by pulling this political stunt, he has completely resuscitated the democratic party against him. >> yeah, it's. >> the only. >> caveat i.

>> would add to that, and it remains to be seen, is one of the clear objectives for this white house is to just flood the zone. and by that i mean a new thing. >> a. >> new chaotic moment, a new crisis point is produced every day, and something that seems even more radical than what we just went through the day before. and so i woke up this morning, for instance, my inbox, my voicemail had been flooded with people worried deeply. >> about this. >> omb memo, which i should point out was two pages. i mean, shutting down all federal grants through a two page memo is wild. >> but i. >> woke up to a flood of voicemails and texts and emails, and the first. >> thing. >> i saw from the senate. democrats was they were going to do a press conference going after trump for the pardons of those who were involved in the january 6th riot. noble a politically perhaps beneficial, but also that was a week ago. that was one day after trump's inaugural, where he issued those pardons. the news cycle is moving at a pace that i don't think any of us. >> have ever.

>> experienced before, and the democratic party may be revived by some of this stuff. >> but they do. >> need to. >> get going. >> because sooner or later, another crisis will present itself and we will be like, oh yeah, remember that time they tried to shut down medicaid? that was a week ago and now we're on to something else. >> the difference is, caring about the pardons requires a human to care about somebody else. even a cop requires a cop to care about another cop. and i think if we're being blunt, i'm not sure that's the moment we live in. but this is about you. this is about your drugs. this is about your child care. this is about your food stamps. this is about you. this is not something that the voters, people who voted for democrats, people who voted for republicans, people who didn't vote for either because they didn't think there was anything in either franchise for them. this is about them. and this doesn't go away with trump's next outrageous tweet. >> donald trump lies about a lot, provides a ton of misinformation. conservative media does. the military didn't go into california to remarkably

start water overnight. what he's saying nobody's going to be affected. that's not true. the reason to your point that this matters is because this breaks through the misinformation. this breaks through the gaslighting. when you can't go to your doctor appointment, you can't go to child care. the medicaid portal is shut down. now you now you. >> know health. >> you know, donald trump is lying to you. and what i'm what i'm most curious about. i think sam's point is right about the fast pace news. it's certainly too early for what i'm about to say, but donald trump is a lame duck. and at what point does the misstep of donald trump, or the incompetence of his administration kind of cross that needle with the lame duck? and look, lame duck is within two years, republicans themselves are going to be running to replace him. democrats are going to be looking for the future of the party. and we know the fatigue and exhaustion of a trump administration. we're feeling it now. republicans are feeling it now. at what point does the lame duck problem come in for donald

trump as well? because too much incompetence. look, he is he is in his second term and people lose the fever in his second term. so we'll see. >> sam stein, thank you for joining us. thank you. stay free in the 4:00 hour. it's great to see you, my friend. the table sticks around. >> it's great to be back. >> it's great to have you back. when we come back, robert f kennedy jr will face senators tomorrow asking to lead the country's top health agencies. but a last minute plea from inside the house from his cousin caroline, urging senators to vote against him, has potentially rocked those potentially rocked those conversa it ain't my dad's razor, dad. ay watch it! it's from gillettelabs. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face... gamechanga! ...while the flexdisc contours to it. so the five blades can get virtually every hair in one stroke. for the ultimate gillette shaving experience. the best a man can get is gillettelabs. tons of sweet dentists on zocdoc. dr. stafford's a real beauty. and people say he's passionate about dentistry! dr. taylor's on thirty-third street... we could practically skate there!

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reduce cholesterol. but statins can also deplete coq10 levels. that's what my doctor recommended. qanon coq10 qanon has the number one cardiologist recommended form of coq10. >> kunal. >> the brand i trust. >> the alarm bells about the harm that robert f kennedy jr could do to public health have been ringing loudly since donald trump announced him as his pick to lead the department of health and human services. now, in anticipation of kennedy's confirmation hearings before the senate, they start tomorrow. the calls are coming from inside the family, with caroline kennedy penning a searing letter to united states senators warning them directly that her cousin is not qualified to serve and to reject his nomination. caroline kennedy writes of her cousin, quote, i have known bobby my whole life. we grew up together. it is no surprise that he keeps birds of prey as pets, because he himself is a predator. he himself is a predator. wow. she

adds disturbing details that rfk jr quote enjoyed showing off how he put baby chickens and mice in the blender to feed hawks. it was often a perverse scene of despair and violence, and in terms of the danger he poses to public health, she warns this quote, even before he fills this job, his constant denigration of our health care system and conspiratorial half truths. he is told about vaccines, including in connection with samoa's deadly measles outbreak, has cost lives. joining our conversation. nbc news white house correspondent vaughn hillyard. vaughn i used the word sadistic yesterday to describe the knowing removal of security protection from people who didn't vote for joe biden, but never vote for joe biden. they didn't vote for kamala harris. they'd never vote for kamala harris. they were ginning up animosity toward both of their foreign policies. and that's john bolton and mike pompeo, because it seems sadistic for trump to remove their

protection, their protective detail, because they have a threat from iran, because they carried out his foreign policy. but when i saw caroline kennedy's letter and the sadistic act she describes of putting live birds in a blender, i'm just wondering what his attraction to sadistic men is about. i'm going to. >> give karen. >> i think in this moment in time. nicole. it is about the reality that donald trump has selected this individual to lead the secretary of health and human services. and i say that because if i think mike pence is a great example of this on the counter, mike pence has nothing to lose. he's not up in congress. he's not the vice president in the white house. and mike pence is currently running ads attacking robert f kennedy jr. from being confirmed to this hhs post. but this comes down to one man, donald trump, who made the selection to pick kennedy. despite this litany of

stories that have come out over the last year. right. not only did he embrace the endorsement of him back in august again, when many of these stories were already out publicly, but he went as far as to welcome him down to palm beach to be a part of key member of his transition. kennedy spent most of the three months there in palm beach, and then went as far as to name him hhs secretary, when there were some that doubted that donald trump would go that far. understanding the deep history of infidelity that has been alleged about robert f kennedy jr, as well as leaving a dead bear cubs in central park, the. the stories about robert f kennedy jr are plentiful. and yet donald trump made the selection, and the question here in the next two days, as we go through these confirmation proceedings, in which kennedy will go before two different committees on wednesday and thursday, is whether there will be enough hesitancy among any republican lawmakers to step in and block his confirmation from

going forward, understanding he's going to be saying, we're seeing fda, cdc and 12 other health agencies. >> let me read more from caroline's letter to you. andrew weissmann. caroline kennedy writes this quote. he has always been charismatic, able to attract others through the strength of his personality, willingness to take risks and break the rules. i watched his younger brothers and cousins follow him down the path of drug addiction his basement, his garage and his dorm room were the centers of the action where drugs were available. siblings and cousins who bobby encouraged down the path of substance abuse, suffered addiction, illness and death. while bobby has gone on to misrepresent, lie and cheat his way through life, i've never heard anyone describe that way by anyone, let alone a family member. let me read that one more time. siblings and cousins who bobby encouraged down the path of substance abuse, suffered addiction, illness and death. while bobby has gone on to misrepresent, lie and cheat his way through life.

>> so i think there are two. things to think about. one is when i was reading her letter, is its reflection. >> of where. >> we are. >> caroline kennedy, the only surviving daughter. >> of president. >> kennedy, and jacqueline kennedy, two. time ambassador. she does not speak. >> publicly ever without enormous justification. the you. >> in reading the letter. it's impossible. i don't. >> know her, but it's. >> impossible not to feel just. the weight. >> of. >> that letter and how much. >> it must. have hurt to do it, and but felt the. >> calling that she had to. >> think about sort of where. >> we are. >> that she has to write this letter because somebody with these characteristics is being proposed to. head our health care system is just remarkable when you think about where we were as a country under her.

>> father. >> the example of her family in various ways, and her. >> example, and. >> then the other is i just i feel like obviously there are tons of alleged personal flaws here. >> and that's. >> an understatement. but i think the core here is the. same in many ways as what i think should have been the sort. >> of attack. >> in the approach to pete hegseth, which is this person cannot run this agency. he is not in favor. >> of science. >> he does not believe in science. he's not making decisions based on. >> science that. >> is going to kill people. it's just like when we're going to have the. >> nomination of kash. >> patel, the head of the fbi needs to be basing their decisions. >> on facts and law. that, to me. >> is the is the real problem

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cancer. during my time in australia working on the cancer moonshot, i learned that cervical cancer is among the top three forms of cancer among women in a majority of countries. tragically, every year more than 200,000 children lose their mothers orphaned due to lack of vaccines and screening. those are the real world consequences to bobby's irresponsible beliefs. statistic in the in the sort of reveling of leading family members down a path to addiction, caroline writes, but also grift in the writing. manipulative. yeah. >> rfk jr is unqualified to run the department. he is anti-science, as andrew said, and should he be appointed, he's a threat to america's public health, and he's a threat to public health around the world. to the extent that we cooperate with other nations in chasing public health causes or cases. i think part of the reveal,

though, as well, is how all of this ideology sits with donald trump and the close cabal of people he has in the white house. because consider what we've been talking about with omb today and the actions by the white house. the omb director hasn't been nominated or hasn't been confirmed yet. russert's not confirmed. he's not in office. the white house already did this unconstitutional move. the white house last week froze public health notices by cdc because it reflects donald trump's ideology. sure, rfk jr will advance that, but but basically, what donald trump is doing is putting in cabinet officials who will defend donald trump's ideology and the people closest to him. the world's at great danger with rfk jr. but it's at greater danger because donald trump was elected last november. >> i mean, ron, what is donald trump's? i mean, the world saw donald trump in the moment of a catastrophic global health catastrophe. the, the, the world and the american voters didn't give him very high marks. but what what is his health

ideology? >> i think that that is a question mark. and he has said that he would defer repeatedly to robert f kennedy jr, a top hhs, in terms of the policy recommendations he makes. and i think that this is all of what has happened over the last, particularly 48 hours, from the clearing out of inspectors general to last night, as we reported, the more than 50 policy maker career civil servants at usaid who were placed on administrative leave last night. all of this, i think, is representative of what we should expect to see across the departments and agencies. for usaid specifically, that was really the first test run of using schedule f, right, and an effort to clear out civil servants and replace them with more trump aligned political appointees. and where i go back to a conversation i had during the transition with a top hhs official at one of the particular agencies who insisted to me, look, we have programs that are funded by congress so

the secretary could come in and try to dismantle them, but it's protected by congress. well, we saw what the trump administration tried to do today with the omb memo. but the second part of that was that this individual insisted to me that they have scientists, statisticians, and they go through a scientific integrity review for every piece of policy and data that goes out to the public, and that the secretary can try to say one thing, but they have career officials inside that will ensure that any data that is released by hhs essentially satisfies the career civil servants, that are those scientists that have reviewed that data in that material. but this is where the question comes in. are those folks going to stick around once mr. kennedy, if he is in fact confirmed, or will they seek to remove those individuals and those key posts? >> vaughn hillyard that that is the question. thank you so much for putting it so starkly for us. and thank you for joining us. andrew and david, stick around. we're going to sneak in one more break. we'll be right back. >> 48% of americans don't get

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please call now or make your monthly donation at helpfeedingamerica.org. and your gift can double in impact. and muscle health. i recommend qanon magnesium glycinate. it's formulated for high absorption and is gentle on the stomach. quinol the brand i trust. >> andrew weissman. bring us some. >> well. >> we were talking sort of off air about sort of what. should the democratic. strategy be? should they just be like, you know what, you own it. you're incompetent. shows we're. >> not here to. save you and. >> just sort of like, you. >> know, now. >> donald trump is the president. if he's going to do all of this and it all falls apart, there's a certain amount of like, it's on you. you know, you can't. you're the party in

power. and i think that may be a viable strategy for a lot. of things. however, if you think about national security, sort of my world. and you think about health, the caroline kennedy letter, that's a bridge too far. and that's where i just that's where, you know, i'm. >> you know, i have a family in. >> that sort. >> of. >> health field. the idea that. that tens of thousands of people. >> if not more, can die. >> and we lived through covid. we know the power. >> of science. we don't i don't think we live in a country that wants that. the other thing is, i don't think the democratic party is wired for that. they go into government to help people. they're not wired. i mean, and i know that that's floating around in political debates. let it burn. democrats won't. the media's job is to hold up a mirror and make sure that doesn't happen. but i do understand the exasperation that that drives the debate in and of itself is dire. thank you both for spending the hour with me

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>> hi again everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. first we have some breaking news to tell you about on the story we brought you at the top of the hour. a federal judge has just delayed implementation of the trump executive order that was freezing all government funding. it had originally been set to go into full effect right now. 5 p.m. eastern. joining us right now to tell us about this delay is msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. so tell us what the judge has decided and what that means. importantly, for people who are trying to access medicaid portals or services. well. >> nicole, let. >> me first. >> share with you what the judge decided, and then we can talk about what it means, because it's a little unclear what it might mean. and hopefully in the

coming hours and days, we'll get a little bit more clarity about it. judge lauren ali khan of the d.c. district court was ruling on an application made by a bunch of coalitions of nonprofits, and what she decided today was she doesn't have enough information, essentially, to enter a preliminary injunction or a temporary restraining order. the government's lawyer said none of these plaintiffs can tell you that they will be irreparably harmed. they can't point to which government programs, for example, they're dependent on, and how the cutting off of aid would prevent them from paying out their staffs or paying their rent at the end of the month, she said. given all of the allegations that have been made, given that they represent tens of thousands of nonprofits and other businesses dependent on aid shall enter what's called an administrative stay, that means until next monday at 5 p.m. the omb memo has been frozen, with one key exception. and here we get into what does this all mean? the freeze is only as to what is considered an open award. meaning if there is an

existing distribution of funds from a given government program that can't be touched. on the other hand, if an award hasn't yet been made from a particular grant program, then the trump white house can put that omb memo into effect and ask various agencies to report back to it in the way that they have in that original memo. so i still think there's some lack of clarity on what this means. but if you were a grant recipient, for example, in a state, you're a partner with, a state that gets federal family planning grants, for example, and you're looking to get that check tomorrow, you're still going to get that check, assuming that you're an existing sub grantee. for example, if you are a partner with a nutrition program federally, you're going to get that check. the question is, are there major categories of federal aid, including in the foreign and international realm, where there aren't open awards, and where this could be a real impediment to funding? we're

going to have to wait to hear from people who know the appropriations process best, people who are really experts in omb processes and impoundment and in appropriations to understand are there real limitations on the administrative stay that judge ali khan just granted? >> let me ask a dumb question. you may not know the answer to this, but david jolly just said, this is what trump was impeached for the first time. >> that's exactly right. >> no understanding or respect for congressionally appropriated money. is the judge saying that there might be some congressionally appropriated monies that trump can take away? >> i think what the judge is saying is, yes, there could be appropriated money that hasn't yet gone out the door as part of a grant program or an award program. and if that's the case, it couldn't be touched by the administrative state. but again, she was reading her ruling orally from the bench. one of the things that was the hallmark of this debate between the doj's lawyer and the lawyer for these nonprofits was sort of an ambiguity about the whole

enterprise. right? the memo went out yesterday, seemed to touch every federal program under the sun, with the exceptions of social security and medicare. and then by midday today, nbc news's garrett haig was reporting to us that omb had walked that back. it had issued a memo trying to clarify which programs weren't affected by it, but in ways that conflicted with the strict letter of the original memo. so i think one thing that is a gloss on this whole process is an uncertainty. and that's partially why i think judge ali khan said, you know what? i need to press pause. i have the right under the administrative procedures act. that's a federal law that governs agency action to take that administrative state, preserve the status quo. while i'm evaluating whether or not a more lasting pause on this is warranted, and what the plaintiffs are asking for is either a temporary restraining order or a preliminary injunction. so let's consider this like baby steps, right? this is the baby. stay the baby pause. on monday of next week, she'll hold a hearing at 11 a.m.

to contemplate whether there should be a much longer pause. and then ultimately, maybe, maybe not, depending on what the administration does, a longer, lengthier trial as to whether or not the omb memo was unlawful for all time. >> mr. rubin, thank you for making sense of that for us. i hope i did. we know you did. we have senator chris murphy, who's been tweeting and speaking publicly about this all day long. so we'll take some of your great points and reporting straight to him and see what they're going to do. thank you so much for jumping running out here. we want to go to our other top story of the day, the ramping up and the very visible efforts to arrest immigrants all across our country. they come as the trump administration continues its mass deportation operation campaign ice agents made arrests in chicago this weekend. ice raids began right here in new york city today. and according to new reporting by nbc news, federal law enforcement agencies are

targeting three u.s. cities per week, with aurora, colorado set to come next. ice arrests did happen under the last administration, but what the trump administration is unleashing is different. it's a substantial jump in numbers as well as in, as i said, optics. so far over the last six days, the trump daily average is 753 arrests a day. for context, in september of 2020, for the latest data available, the biden administration arrested on average, 282 people a day. trump's administration has said that their first priorities were violent criminals, people that represented a grave public safety threat. it was a feature of all of his campaign rallies. but that, too has changed, according to white house press secretary in her first ever briefing from the podium today, the administration considers a criminal. their definition is much broader than just people with violent criminal records. watch. >> so is violent offenders no

longer the predicate. >> for these. >> people to be deported? >> the president has said countless times on the campaign trail. i've been with him at the rallies. i know you've been there, covering them to peter, that he is focused on launching the largest mass deportation operation in american history of illegal criminals. and if you are an individual, a foreign national who illegally enters the united states of america, you are by definition a criminal. and so therefore you are subject to deportation. >> i apologize for interrupting. so to be clear, it's not violent. criminals do not receive precedence in terms of the deportations. >> taking place. >> the president has also said two things can be true at the same time. we want to deport illegal criminals, illegal immigrants from this country. but the president has said that, of course, the illegal drug, criminal drug dealers, the rapists, the murderers, the individuals who have committed heinous acts on the interior of our country and who have terrorized law abiding american citizens, absolutely. those should be the priority of ice. but that doesn't mean that the other illegal criminals who entered our nation's borders are off the table.

>> just just really on. let me get this off my chest. two contradictory things actually can't be true at the same time. and people who are in the country without status are not criminals. that's a civil offense, not a criminal offense. but you saw what's coming out of the podium. it's not stopping what are described technically as, quote, collateral arrests by ice. almost half of the nearly 1200 arrests made on sunday were ones of individuals who do not have criminal records. they are not the criminals that trump or his spokeswoman talk about leaving undocumented immigrants in a constant state of fear, though, may be precisely the point. npr reporting from chicago finds this, quote, the ramped up enforcement has already upended how immigrants and mixed status families go about their daily lives. in the crowd, a young woman named rosa stands out. her belly's enormous. she's six months pregnant. quote. we are afraid, she says. we're staying indoors to avoid deportation. rosa is in

the country without legal status, so she's asked npr to withhold her last name. she says she's missed her recent appointments with her ob gyn because she's too scared to go to her doctor. if the mood here stays this tense, she says, she might not go at all. here with me at the table is npr's immigration correspondent jasmine garsd, who's reporting we just read from plus host of the fast politics podcast, special correspondent for vanity fair, molly jong-fast is here. also joining us, chief political columnist, host of the impolitic podcast for msnbc. national affairs analyst john heilemann is here. let me start with your reporting on rosa. >> i mean, what i have witnessed on the ground is a humanitarian crisis in the making. rosa was one example of just someone who might not give birth in a hospital. i also witnessed families who will are not going

grocery shopping, who are not going to work because they are so scared. and i want to be clear. >> you know. >> there's we talk about undocumented versus citizens, 11 million, somewhere around 11 million american citizens have an undocumented family member. so when i was in chicago, i spent a bunch of time with families where half the family was undocumented. and maybe the kids are not. and so i spoke to one family. he's a landscaper. and in the outskirts of chicago, and mom and dad are undocumented children, grown. >> children. >> citizens, a younger child, a citizen. there's grandchildren who are citizens. and between the talk of mass deportations and the 14th amendment being questioned, they are worried about three generations being plucked out of this community. and their biggest fear was who goes to pick up our daughter at

her elementary school if i don't make it back? they're having these conversations with their daughter. they are seeking a psychiatrist to treat their daughter's anxiety disorder. so i think it's really important to talk about the impact this is having, not just on immigrant communities, but on american citizens as well. i do believe it's a humanitarian crisis in the making. >> i mean, the last time trump's immigration policies targeted children, a judge in california, i believe, appointed by president reagan described them as, quote, child abuse. do you feel like it's. do these families feel that this has already risen to that level? >> i mean, again, you have a 12 year old who is you know, the parents are looking to get her psychiatric assistance because she is living with a severe anxiety disorder. i think there's many forms of family separation, right? there's family separation at the border like we saw in the last administration. and, you know, what we're seeing here is a

potential family separation, too. this is a family that has been in the us for over 30 years. that's over 30 years of life here. and at one point, the father, you know, he said something that was very striking, which was he's a landscaper, right. and he said, i was good enough to fix your yards, but not good enough to stay. and it just it's like a level of upheaval and intergenerational trauma that we need to be talking about. >> i mean, john heilemann, trumpism is predicated on dehumanizing all three generations, right? the landscaper, the landscapers, us born adult kids who now have second generation american children. and trumpism only works if none of them are human, if all of them are what trump describes as vermin infecting the blood of our country. and i and i wonder, i've done a lot of reflecting on whether we did enough right. and he's been

dehumanizing people, not just here illegally, but but people who have been here illegally and now have two, three, four generations who are traumatized by his reelection. and i guess my question for you is, what can we do differently this time around? >> thanks for the easy question, nicole. good to see you. >> i feel like we've had all the easy conversations. right. like this is here we are wherever you go. there you are. right. what should we watch? what do we do differently this time, john heilemann? >> well. >> i don't know. >> the answer to that question. i'll just be honest with you. >> i don't know the answer to that question. what i do know is that right now, donald trump has a free hand politically. i'll try to stick to my political analysis here to do what he's doing. he's he's he's encountering no meaningful opposition. >> that i. >> can see. and i obviously

stress the word meaningful. there are people who. are unhappy. about these policies. you are. unhappy about them. i am unhappy about them. others of more consequence than. >> you and me are unhappy about them. >> but right now, you know, we've heard a few republicans make a few. >> whispers of complaint about the. january 6th pardons. >> we've now. >> heard. >> a couple of republicans. >> make some some. complaints about the revocation of. >> the security. >> details for. >> john bolton and mike pompeo and others. but there is no republican. out there. right now. none. zero. nada. zilch. not a republican in the country right now who is speaking out about. elected republican, who is speaking out and saying that these immigration policies are too severe. and the reality of our situation. >> is that in washington, d.c. >> the republican party controls. every lever of power. and so trump has a free. >> hand until. >> these policies go too far. i've said to you before.

>> on the show that. >> i think there are things he could do that would go too far, that would provoke a change in in the political climate. but right now, the republicans, there's no. >> republican out there. >> who's opposing him. and democrats are focusing on a variety of things. >> sometimes effectively, sometimes ineffectively. >> but there is no organized democratic resistance. forget resistance. that word is too loaded opposition. to these policies. that's giving donald trump any reason to think twice about what he's doing. >> none. >> and as long as that continues to be the case. so i guess the answer to the question is, nicole, is how about something as opposed to nothing? >> yeah. no. look, i take your point and i agree with your with your report, all your reporting and your analysis of it. i guess what i would what i would press on and try to deepen my own understanding of is this fight has played out and it played out among big state governors. governor of california was pete wilson. governor of texas was george w bush. pete wilson was thought to have much more hard line immigration views than george w bush, the affable

brother of jeb bush, who was sort of viewed as more promising presidential fodder. i worked for both of them. it's more complicated than what i'm laying out, but i wonder if you think i mean the pieces of what trump is doing that are popular are the pieces that his spokesperson walked away from at the podium today. what has 87% approval is deporting violent criminals. after that piece, it all splits the country exactly in half, almost along the lines of what? how they voted. so he's already from the podium, announced that people who committed the civil offense of being undocumented will also be swept up and deported. and i wonder if you think there's any sort of cracks in the political calculations that are making. >> i don't think there are any cracks right now, and i think there could be, depending on what we see through important reporting, like the reporting from npr and other reporting, as we start to see images of. >> what this all. >> looks like as it goes

forward, as we start to get a better. >> sense of the scale. >> the scale of it has obviously been dramatic in the context of the first week, but are we talking about in the end? are we talking about a million people, 2 million people, 6 million people, 12 million people? and what are the tactics? because as you start to climb the escalation ladder of the. >> numbers. >> you're going to have to and this. >> is. >> by boer people when i talk about this, but you're. >> talking. >> about when you start to get. >> into like large numbers of. >> millions of. >> deportations, you're going to start to redirect federal, state and local law enforcement towards that. ice won't be able to do that on its own. you're going to have to do you're going to have to deputize and militarize a bunch of forces to get people on that scale out of the country in a meaningful time frame, and what that is going to look like is going to make what we've seen over the last week, if that's what happens, is going to make what we've seen over the. >> last. >> week look like child's play. and i think the question of what the political response is, to your point. >> yes. >> we do polling that says, are you in favor of or are you

against, are you in favor of or against the thing that we don't do that's reflected in the numbers is how much do you care and how much how salient is it for you? there are a bunch of people who are 100 who are who are who care a lot about getting criminal, undocumented immigrants, illegal immigrants out of the country who are criminals and who are violent criminals. they might not be in favor of getting criminal, as it was misdefined by trump's spokeswoman here today. they might not be in favor of deporting those people, but do they care enough to make noise about it, to make trump feel some political pain for it? or are they kind of like, well, he's going a little too far. i wouldn't have been for that. but ultimately what i care about is x, y, z a, b, c. and so the salience question in what what rather than just the raw are you for it or against it. but the salient question what do people do there? there must be pushback if it's going to stop. and until there's pushback, there won't be. and that has to come, as i said before, not just from democrats, but but from republicans and from a lot of people out in the country.

because other than if because if that doesn't happen when trump has a free hand, we know what he does. i mean, beyond, you know, coloring outside the lines, he, he he takes advantage of every, every inch you give him. he takes a mile. and that's what he's going to do here to. >> this, this question of do you care? i think it's just the biggest thing in front of the country right now. do you care? do you care about people who might not look like you, but who may take care of your lawn? do you care about their kids who were born here? who maybe you hand down your own kids clothes and toys to? do you care? do you view them as different from the anonymous, faceless people here illegally in another state? when it's your community, when it's your local businesses, when it's your local restaurant that shuts down, do you care? and i wonder what your reporting suggests. >> i mean, i think look to your prior guest's point. i think, you know, there was widespread support for deportation of violent criminals, which we should also caveat with saying there is ample research showing

that undocumented immigrants do not commit more crime, more violent crime than non-immigrants. but i do think it becomes more divisive when we're talking about everyday people, about the landscaper who's been here for 30, 40 years. do you care? i mean, i think what is at play here is this question of, you know, are americans comfortable with a permanent underclass, a perma underclass that maybe gets to stay if they don't get caught, but better keep their head down and keep going to work? i mean, or is this something that the country is comfortable with? and i think it could get more complicated for republicans once these images start coming out. when i was in the outskirts of chicago, i visited a church that had these basement bedrooms in case someone needs sanctuary. i was asked not to photograph how

to get to the basement bedrooms. and i think the question is, are we comfortable with living in a country where there have to be kind of secret basement bedrooms? >> no, i mean, i guess my question for you, mollie, is to john's point to jasmine's reporting, have people really contemplated what is i mean, if you round up millions of people, it's not like you go straight to jfk and put them on a jetblue flight back to wherever, especially if they've never been to the country from which they're born, where we we're going to be what? feeding people, taking care of their health needs. the eight month pregnant woman could get scooped up delivering babies, educating what what what do people think we're going to be doing with individuals, millions of individuals swept up in these raids. >> so i want to go back to what happened during the campaign. one of the things we saw in the data was that democrats would

say, you know, he's going to do this, this and this, and voters would say, no, he didn't do that last time. they wouldn't believe them. and that's what you saw again and again. there was just they they just for whatever reason, you know, harris would say he has this plan, project 2025. and time we were okay. and the problem is, until those images come out, i mean, you remember the family separation, the little girl crying, holding a shoe until the american people see that they don't. i think there's a real suspension of disbelief here. and i don't think they totally understand what this will look like and just how scary it is and just how meaningful it is. and just the effects, the second hand effects, you know, what people don't see is they say, yes, i want criminals deported. and then trump interprets that as yes, everyone who is here illegally, illegally is a criminal. even though, as we just said, it's a civil crime. and then we go down this rabbit

hole of what this means, like, you can't, you know, your gardener is gone, right? he's gone. he can't. do you know, your cook is gone. there's no you order food and there's no one there to make it. there's no one there to bring it. >> i mean, it's bigger than your groceries could be empty, right? you know, i mean, it is. it is. the silence from the business community is also pretty deafening, right? it's amazing. >> and it's. >> also i mean, you know, look, there's the humanity aspect, which i think should be the biggest for all of us, obviously, for obvious reasons. but there's also the inflationary aspect, like if donald trump had any mandate at all, it was to make things less expensive. this will actually run completely contrary to that. >> it's a conversation we'll continue to have. jasmine garsd, thank you so much. your reporting is really incredible. john heilemann, thank you. thank you for keeping us honest. it's great to see you. my friend molly sticks around a little bit longer when we come back, team trump said over and over and over again that they had nothing to do with project 2025. project

2025 hardly knew them. well, now, one week in the project 2025 agenda is rolling out in full force. we'll talk about what democrats and anyone who cares about america remaining a democracy can do about it. later in the broadcast, that sweeping executive order freezing federal funding for a whole host of programs has been stayed, but the impacts are still being felt nationwide. we'll talk to senator chris murphy of connecticut on what he and his constituents are seeing and experiencing and what can be done. deadline. white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> selling a car is a big deal. you've had some big moments, okay, and. >> some wrong. >> turns, but when you're ready to. >> sell, car gurus. >> is a big help. >> get multiple offers. >> get multiple offers. >> some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking allstate first. - we won. - [cheering] like you know to check that it's not going into overtime before you storm the court. so check allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds.

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project 2025. i haven't read it. i don't want to read it. they made up about project 25. they've been told officially, legally, in every way that we have nothing to do with project 25. >> project 2025. has absolutely. nothing to do. >> with the. >> past. >> present or future. >> president trump project 2025 is not. affiliated with the trump campaign. kevin roberts is a friend of mine, but i wouldn't say that he speaks for the president in the same way. i wouldn't say that he speaks for me. >> the only part i ever believed from any of them was when trump said, quote, i haven't read it. we all knew it was a lie at the time, right? common response to any suggestion that project 2025 was over here, and they were over here, that it was at all separate from the trump agenda. now, one week into his new administration, skeptics were once again right. the purge at doj. the executive orders almost to a letter, the games being played over federal funding. all of it can be found on the pages of project 2025. it's a point

that chuck schumer made earlier today. >> this decision is lawless, dangerous, destructive, cruel. it's illegal. >> it's unconstitutional. >> i spoke to my attorney general this morning. she's head of the state attorneys general association. they're going to. >> court right. >> away. >> on this. horror, this plain and simple. this is. project 2025. >> it's for our purposes, the debate over the relationship, direct or indirect, between the trump administration and project 2025 is officially over. in its place, a central question what are pro-democracy officials and actors going to do about it? joining our conversation is voting rights attorney founder of the site democracy docket, marc elias. molly jong-fast is here as well. mark your thoughts about all the day's

developments. >> so i think it's a tale of two realities. the one is that donald trump wanted to be an authoritarian figure. and project 2025 is a roadmap for someone to be an authoritarian figure. and he is now. executing his authoritarian impulse. so let's just focus on the most problematic parts of what he has done. number one, he has already begun purging the federal. government of people who. >> want government. >> on the merits, and he is replacing them with cronies who just are loyal to him. and that spans. across a number of agencies, a number of different actions. but that is the. top line, right? that he in order to execute his authoritarian vision, he needs to replace not just the political appointees, but the people doing the work. number two, he is violating his oath of office. he violated it immediately by signing a birthright citizenship executive order that violates the

constitution. an oath he took to uphold. then he followed it up with this omb memo to. impound all federal. >> funds and grants. >> violating his oath to uphold the law. so that's where we. >> stand right now. >> the other reality. >> though. >> and this is. >> the good news part. >> is that the courts are holding the courts blocked the order on birthright citizenship. a federal judge just. >> a few. >> minutes ago blocked, at least for. >> the time. >> being, this order. >> and. >> you know, this is not to say that the courts are the ultimate. >> solution, but it is important to. recognize that. >> as spineless as the republicans are, as little resistance as they will put. >> up in congress, the federal. >> judiciary so far is two for two. >> let me read what you write today on the retribution campaign that trump is waging, quote, across the country, across age career officials will be asked to engage in the harassment of donald trump's political opponents. it may take the form of denials of government

contracts, delayed government services, irs audits and, in the most sinister circumstances, criminal investigations and prosecutions, insisting government officials abide by their oaths and reject this pressure is an important but not sufficient response to the crisis we now face. it is incumbent on the media, civil society groups, judges and individual citizens to adopt a presumption of skepticism when it is told that a political opponent of trump is under an ethical or legal cloud, say more. >> yeah, i think that this is the most. important piece of advice or request i can make of all of them. judges, the media, civil society groups. >> and everyone. >> watching this. >> which is that donald trump is. >> going to enact. >> political retribution. >> he is going. >> to misuse. government power against his perceived enemies. anyone who has. >> been oppositional to donald. >> trump is lying. if they tell you that they have.

>> not spent. >> wakeless nights thinking about what it means for the federal government to target them, and the reality that that may very well happen to them, and if it doesn't happen to them, it will happen to someone they know. and so what do we do about that? we can hope that the federal government employees and institutions hold. we can tell ourselves, well. >> in the. >> end, juries will acquit. but honestly, that's cold comfort. what we need is for everyone to start with a presumption of skepticism. right now, when you read in the newspaper that so-and-so is under criminal investigation, you naturally assume there must be some there there. if a reporter gets a tip. >> that someone may. >> have done something. >> wrong or cheated, they. >> start with the presumption. >> there's probably. >> some there there. >> judges who. >> are told that there is malicious. >> prosecution. >> or that the political prosecutions starts with the assumption that's not true, that the department of justice is a. >> neutral. >> nonpartisan entity, and it is going to be hard. but i need everyone to reverse that. i need

reporters to say, if the trump administration says that one of their political opponents did something wrong, the media's first. instinct should be. that's probably not true. the story here is why are you targeting your political. >> opponents? the judges. >> need to not. >> dismiss claims. >> of political prosecution. >> they need to assume. >> okay, that may very well be true. or if not, assume it. they need to be open to the idea of may very well. >> be true. >> but most importantly, everybody out there. >> watching you. >> need to treat with skepticism the claims that this. administration makes when they say that one of their political opponents has. done something. >> wrong, in. >> the same way that you would be. >> skeptical when. >> vladimir putin said that navalny did something wrong. right. >> we need to. >> start with the assumption that this is an authoritarian regime that is. >> going. >> to smear. >> their opponents. >> and misuse. government power to do so. >> mark, they have introduced a new element, and it's threats of violence by stripping away the protective detail from their own folks. mike pompeo never said

anything nice about joe biden or kamala harris. neither did john bolton. they've been stripped of their protective details. times reported that it was it was it was one of their forms of retribution that they didn't telegraph. the other question that i think a lot of targets of trump and his allies have asked is if you're swatted and you call the fbi who comes, what do you do about the threats of violence directed at trump's critics? >> yeah, i think that the threats of violence are real and we need to take seriously. i mean, the fact is, it's in addition to what you just said about those individuals protective details being lifted, people who, by the way, have been targeted by. >> iran. >> among others, state sponsors of violence. >> and terrorism. >> it is also the fact that donald trump. pardoned more than 1500 people who are now loyal to him, or. >> some. >> segment view themselves loyal to him. and many of those people have histories of violence. in fact, they were. >> put in. >> in prison or or in jail

because of violence that they committed on january 6th. and donald trump has not given words to assure us that he is. not encouraging the building of a private militia that will that will execute his will on the outside. so threats of violence are real. they are. >> things. >> we need to worry a lot about. and you're right. who do you call? you know, one of the people. i mentioned in the article that i, that i, that i wrote that you mentioned was a lawyer, a lawyer who went to the fbi because he believed that there might be evidence of criminal activity that involved donald trump. bill barr launched an. investigation and a special counsel, and that lawyer got indicted. now he ultimately got acquitted. but, you know, how do you tell people, go to the fbi if you see something, if you see something, say something. yeah, well, guess what? the people on the other end are going to be run by kash patel. so who, as you say, do you go to. >> mark elias will continue to ask the questions even when they

don't have answers. thank you so much for being here. we'll continue to call on you. coming up next for us. nationwide mayhem as the trump executive order targets funding for head start and countless other programs. senator chris murphy will join us to talk about what he and democrats are doing at this hour of maximum trump this hour of maximum trump fea(man 1)ing and chaos. that's we're standing up for our right to be lazy. (woman 1) by sitting down. (man 2) and reclining back. (man 3) 'cause we work hard and want to relax harder. (man 4) we, the lazy, are taking back lazy... (woman 2) ...on our la-z-boy furniture. (vo) la-z-boy. long live the lazy. but. >> at least. >> you can go to safelite. com and schedule. >> a fix in minutes. >> a fix in minutes. >> go this land is your land. this land is my land.

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>> donald trump's executive order shutting off government funding for a whole host of programs that impact all americans is on a very brief hold, thanks to a last minute order from a federal judge. but the order has already detonated and caused a whole bunch of chaos and anxiety. in connecticut, programs like head start, which provides child care and early education for kids of low income families and allows parents to not have to choose between working and watching their kids saw its reimbursement system shut down today. senator chris murphy called out the trump administration for claiming that cuts would not impact programs that provide assistance to individuals, saying, quote, don't believe these people. in connecticut, the head start reimbursement system is shut down, preschools cannot pay staff and will need to start laying off staff very soon and sending little kids home. joining us now is democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut. senator, tell me first what the sort of lived reality is for folks in your

state, in what you're hearing is happening? >> there's panic. >> in connecticut, as you have reported all day, medicaid stopped being accessible to make payments. >> to doctors. >> and hospitals. today. >> head start couldn't access their payment programs and started making plans. >> to. >> lay off. >> staff and. >> send children home. >> they're still. >> making those. >> plans because, as you. >> also mentioned. >> the order from the court. >> is only good. >> for a few days. the funding. >> for emergency. disaster relief. >> has been suspended. it appears that money going to our elementary. >> schools to help. pay for books. >> and teachers has been. >> suspended. >> literally the lifeblood. >> of our communities, the programs that keep us alive. >> that educate. >> our kids, that protect. >> our neighborhoods. >> all disappeared overnight. >> and why? >> why? >> the answer is simple donald trump is. >> seizing power. he is. >> seizing power. and what an autocrat. >> does is. >> put himself and only himself in charge of doling out money so

that he. >> can give. >> that money to his friends. >> and to his loyalists. >> and so he can deny that money to. >> people that are not. >> loyal to him. and that is what. donald trump. >> is preparing. >> to do. >> now. >> tonight, he didn't get away. >> with. >> it for more than a handful of hours. but it doesn't mean that those recipients. >> of. >> dollars, those schools, those hospitals, those head start centers won't wake up tomorrow morning still. >> in chaos. >> not. >> knowing whether. >> they are going to, by the end of next week. >> still. >> be able to employ. >> people and. >> provide those services. he's not doing it. >> to try. >> to make government. >> more efficient. he is doing it to be able to perpetuate. >> a fundamental corruption. >> donald trump rewarding his friends. >> and his billionaires, friends. companies and punishing democrats. >> and states. >> that don't. >> line up and pledge. >> loyalty to him. >> senator, the illegality of it has an echo to the incompetence

of the first trump presidency. and i wonder how you factor in everything you talked about, along with sort of a quintessential feature of trumpian politics, which is the clunkiness and the incompetence of it. >> yeah. >> i think there's a lot more. >> thought being. >> put into this assault on democracy. than in the first term. >> a lot. >> of us warned that trump was. going to. be much. >> more effective. >> and efficient in. >> destroying democracy. >> this time than the first time, in. >> part because there are. >> no adults who. >> believe in the. >> rule of. >> law surrounding him at the white house. >> you have. >> to sort of view. >> the last week. >> as. >> part of. >> one very. planned out attack. >> on our democracy. >> a very planned out. >> assault on. >> the rule of law, the. immunization of political violence. >> the firing of. >> all. >> the inspectors. general who try. >> to. >> root out. >> corruption inside.

>> of these agencies. >> and now. >> the seizure. >> of federal programs. >> it's all. designed to. >> allow trump. >> to get. >> away with. >> corruption. >> to allow him to basically turn our government into an enrichment machine. >> for. >> himself and. >> his friends. none of it is accidental. some of it looks ham handed, but. >> who knows? >> maybe this. >> case makes. >> its way to the supreme court. >> very shortly. and trump's hand-picked judges. many of them. >> at least. >> one of them. proven to be deeply. >> corrupt. >> allows him to get away with it. >> you're right in that these were the warnings made by president joe biden, by vice president kamala harris. folks like yourself, a whole bunch of people in the media, and trump was elected. it doesn't mean that the country wanted this, but this is what the country is going to get. the democrats seemed present, company excluded. you seem to have clarity and sort of political

vigor every day since the election. but a lot of your fellow democrats have not. they seemed awakened to the reality of the implementation of an abandoning of a democracy and an operationalizing of not just project 2025, but a corrupt autocracy. what are the conversations going on behind the scenes with your democratic colleagues about how to respond? >> well. >> listen. >> our response has. >> to. be three pronged. >> it has to happen. >> immediately, and it has to be vigorous, because. >> this. is a. >> turning point for the country. and again, it's not just. >> that we're. >> preserving democracy, it's that we're. >> fighting corruption. we're fighting corruption. >> donald trump wants. >> to. >> take over the. >> government so. >> he. can steal. >> from you. right. what's what's part of the rationale that he's cutting off funds for schools and hospitals so that he can hoard that money instead of spending it on you? he can hand. it to his billionaire friends. we're fighting corruption here. the three pronged strategy is this we've got to make their life miserable here in the senate today, we denied them a

debate on one of their priority bills. tomorrow morning, we'll take a vote on their nominee to be the administrator of the epa. i hope that my colleagues vote against that nomination. >> whether or not you think that. >> lee zeldin. is qualified or not. >> he is going to go. >> to the. >> epa to. >> administer a deeply. >> corrupt and immoral policy. all of the grants notwithstanding, tonight's judicial order. >> at the. >> epa are frozen so that trump can hand them out to his friends and deny them to his enemies. we need a public relations strategy. yes, i have been very vocal. i have been visibly angry for weeks. hopefully more of my colleagues will present that kind of engagement, and then we have to keep it up in the courts. sue to block these illegal orders, and hope that some of them withstand appellate scrutiny. >> what do you what do you think his legal strategy is? is it to suss out the judges that are going to block his steamrolling of democracy? or is it to bump all the cases up to the supreme court? what do you think he's

trying to do. >> well, or is it to ultimately pick a fight with the judiciary? will he actually comply with these executive orders? remember, jd vance said a. few years ago, here's the plan. we seized control. we put all our people in, we rig the rules. and then when a court tells us we can't do it. we ignore the court and dare them to enforce it. that might be the plan here. jd vance spelled it out. that's the final corruption of democracy. if the. executive branch just says to the courts, we don't care what you say, we're doing it anyway. we control the army and law enforcement, and so. nobody can make us. we haven't gotten to that moment yet. i am hopeful that donald trump. observes this court order tonight in any subsequent court orders. >> but you. >> better be ready, because donald trump's team has made it clear that they don't have much respect for congress, and they

don't have much respect for the court system. >> yeah. and to your point that that is the point. just a note. we don't find you visibly angry. we find you refreshingly immersed in the news and everything happening around us. and we're really glad we got to talk to you today, senator chris murphy. thank you. >> thanks, nicole. >> another break, i'm going to bring in molly and her new piece of reporting about democrats at this hour for our democracy. don't go anywhere. that's next. >> take a breath of fresh air with a stanley steamer air duct cleaning. we clean over 10,000,000ft of air ducts each year with our specialized trucks built by us, removing the contaminants from your home. contaminants from your home. your air ducts aren't ♪♪ amazing. jerry, you've got to see this. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. stop waiting. start investing. e*trade ® from morgan stanley.

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>> so basically, it wasn't a criticism of democratic candidates. it was more of a question of where democratic presidential candidates have really gotten into trouble. and i think it's more of the advice they're getting. they're getting a lot of focus on data. and, you know, we talked earlier in this episode about how there was someone else talking about these ideas, like, what's the most important to you when you're asked that in polling? and people will answer, but they won't necessarily. it's avoiding a negative versus, you know, an affirmation, something that's a positive that people vote for. and so i actually my sort of my call in this piece is that democratic consultants keep democratic presidential candidates too afraid to do stuff. and while they do a lot of interviews, they aren't necessarily allowed to fully be themselves in a way that i think would be helpful. and we saw this with a really good example is tim walz, who was a really

good who was really good at connecting. and then he had a very tough debate performance, and he sort of disappeared from the conversation. and i think that was intentional and i think it was meant to decrease negatives, but it it ended up not giving people a chance to get to know him. and we've seen him as a really, really good politician. >> what should they do right now in this moment? >> they should not be afraid. and that's what we saw with chris murphy. and we've seen that with aoc, and we've seen that with a bunch of different jasmine crockett and maxwell frost. we're seeing these politicians out there not being afraid, not worrying. you know, this is it, right? i mean, what chris was describing is, is really scary, right? there's a real law. there's a chance for really scary, scary lawlessness that we have not seen in modern politics. and, and democrats have an opportunity to at least slow it and maybe stop it. and we need to take those. >> opportunities and use all the

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