room at that point, and i think we need to understand when this late term abortion gets bandied about. what you're dealing with is a tragedy that is happening to a family who wanted that child and have suddenly been confronted with a moment in which they have to make what is probably going to be the worst decision of their lives, and to try to shove the state legislature into that room. is really offensive, really morally wrong. and i just want to make very clear what rhode island ob gyns tell me is the situation when these procedures have to be deployed. >> it's going to do it for me today. deadline. white house starts right now.

>> hi everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. it's the retribution. stupid said no swing. >> voter ever. >> but that's where team trump is focused today. >> against an. >> undisputed american. military hero. donald trump's newly. minted secretary of defense. pete hegseth, in short order, is exacting donald trump's revenge on. >> retired four. >> star general. former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley. >> quote. removing his security. >> detail, revoking his security. clearance and ordering an inspector general inquiry into his record. viewers of this program remember all too. well that general milley was a frequent target of donald trump's rage and deranged rants that. >> included, quote. >> suggesting that general milley had committed treason and should be put to death. >> end quote. >> in part because. >> of. >> public threats like that, threats that sound like they're straight out of north. korea or russia. quote, general milley received. >> a preemptive pardon. >> from president.

>> biden, a pardon that. >> means, quote, general. >> milley cannot be court martialed, but a finding against him could lead to. a decision to reduce his rank, even in retirement. in plain english, reduce his. >> rank means potentially taking. >> away one of general milley's four stars. stars he earned for extraordinary bravery on. >> the battlefield. >> and in the theater of war, leading. >> our brave. >> men and. women in uniform. the details. >> matter here today. >> this is just some of what four star general mark milley did to earn those four stars. there's his extensive background of combat experience in egypt, panama. >> haiti. >> bosnia. >> iraq. >> afghanistan. somalia and colombia. there's general milley's long list of awards and honors from the army's distinguished service. medal to the legion of merit, the national defense service medal, the afghanistan campaign medal. >> the global war. on terrorism. >> service medal. there are too many to actually list here, and

despite the extraordinary record of service and patriotism and courage, this. >> is. >> who donald trump has chosen to humiliate and potentially demote. it's petty, like ordering general milley's portraits to be. >> yanked off the walls. >> at the pentagon. but make no mistake. >> it is. >> also dangerous. trump's retribution punishing general mark milley by pulling his security. >> detail is a serious. >> threat to mark milley's life. >> we know that in the. >> wake of the 2020. >> strike that killed. >> a top iranian. >> commander. >> soleimani, quote, the iranian revolutionary. >> guard posted a. video explicitly. >> threatening 15. former trump administration officials with imminent assassination. >> quote. >> by drone, sniper, fire bomb, lethal injection or stabbing, end. >> quote. >> topping what u.s. officials informally call iran's. >> kill list was. >> among others, then chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley, veteran journalist.

bob woodward reported on just. >> how. >> serious the threats to mark milley's life were. >> in his book war. >> writing this quote. since retiring, milley had received a nonstop. barrage of death threats that he, at least in part, attributed to trump's repeated aggressive attempts to discredit him as a former chairman, milley was provided round the clock government security for two years, but he had taken additional precautions at significant personal expense, installing bulletproof glass and blast proof curtains at his home. bulletproof glass and blast proof curtains because donald trump threatened him. now exacting revenge on general milley by pulling his security. >> detail. >> the detail that's protecting him from that publicly stated threat from iran is nothing short. >> of putting. >> a bull's eye on his back, making it easier for america's known enemies to target an american military hero. and why?

>> why is this. >> happening. >> you might ask? because retired four star general mark milley was willing. >> to do. >> what far too few people have been brave enough. >> to do. >> which was to find a line and hold it and speak the truth to power. he went on the record saying. >> quote. >> no one has ever been as dangerous to this country as donald trump, telling. bob woodward, this quote, now i realize he's. >> a total fascist. >> he is the most dangerous person to this country. donald trump, he said, is, quote, fascist to the core. and he didn't just say it in private to reporters. he said it in public, out loud, so that the brave women in uniform and every american citizen could hear him. >> you see, we in uniform. >> are unique. >> we are. >> unique among the world's armies. we are unique among the world's militaries. >> we don't take. >> an oath to. >> a country. we don't. >> take an oath to a tribe. we don't take an oath to a

religion. we don't take an oath to a. king or. >> a queen, or to a tyrant or. >> a dictator. and we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. we don't take an oath to an individual. we take an oath to the constitution, and we take an oath. >> to the idea. >> that is america, and we're willing to die to protect it. >> words. some of trump's cabinet picks might want to ruminate on. we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator, even if that wannabe dictator tries to exact his revenge on you. it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. nbc news national security correspondent courtney kuby is here. also joining. >> us, retired. >> u.s. army brigadier general steve anderson is here. >> and with. >> me at the table for. >> the hour. >> host of the independent americans podcast, founder. >> and ceo of. >> independent veterans of america, paul rieckhoff joins us. courtney kube, you covered general milley. what can you tell us about his reaction to

this extraordinary move by pete hegseth today? >> yeah. >> i've been covering general milley for a long time, actually, since he was a commander in afghanistan years ago. so i will say he is not commenting on any of this at this point. but i think that what what we need to remember here is where the threat really is against mark milley. yes, iran, as you mentioned, nicole. absolutely. there is a concern that iran could be continuing to target u.s. officials who were involved in the in the assassination of qasem soleimani, but also who were involved in things even after that. so other efforts to for the u.s. to go after iran and iranian proxy groups. and remember, one thing you have to remember about iran is they do not always respond right away. sometimes their their responses and their retaliation comes months, if not years later. so that is a threat. but really, what the bigger threat to mark milley has been in recent years is, is from people who are very loyal to donald trump because of the sorts of comments that he

and statements that he has made that you just outlined there. that has been one of the bigger threats that he has faced. it's really more of an of an internal united states threat that has caused him to continue to have security, to take the measures that he outlined to bob woodward in that book, and to be continue to be concerned about his safety and security. now, in addition to pulling his security clearance, i'm sorry, his security detail, the new secretary of defense, pete hegseth, literally on day one, also decided to pull general milley security clearance. and he has ordered the department of defense, the pentagon's office of inspector general, to review or conduct an inquiry into milley's time in service into his more than four decades in the military. frankly, most likely focusing on his last several years to determine and make a recommendation about whether there should be a grade determination board that could ultimately decide to lower

general milley's rank. he retired as a four star general. he has all the benefits and the pay that go along with that retirement. but if in fact a grade determination board goes through and finds he did not serve honorably during his time as a four star general, they could knock him down in grade to the rank where he was, where they find him to have last served honorably. nicole, i got to say this, i do not expect this to be a quick process. the department of the oig, you know they are busy. the inspector general's office, they have a lot of projects. and i have to point out that the inspector general here, robert storch, was one of the ones who was fired quietly last friday night. so now they are working with an acting inspector general on top of everything else. but even if that occurs, i even if they do make a recommendation to review his grade and his rank and grade that he retired at, i don't expect that to be an extremely fast process here. nicole. let me. >> play some of what you're drawing our. attention to, and

that is the threats that general milley faced domestically. here he is talking about it in an interview with 60 minutes. >> he is suggesting. >> that. >> you be punished. >> by death. >> the former commander in chief to his former top military advisor. >> look, i'm a soldier. i've been faithful and loyal to the constitution of the united states for 44.5 years, and my family and i have sacrificed greatly for this country, my mother and father before them. and, you know, as much as these comments are directed at me, it's also directed at the institution of the military. and there's 2.1 million of us in uniform, and the american people can take it to the bank that all of us, every single one of us, from private to general, were loyal to that constitution. it will never turn our back on it, no matter what, no matter what the threats, no matter what the humiliation, no matter what. if we're willing to die for that document, if we're willing to deploy, to combat, if we're willing to lose an arm, a leg, an eye to protect and support

and defend that document and protect the american people, then we're willing to live for it to. >> he i. >> mean, i wonder, courtney, if you could just sort of tell people about him as someone who knows him and covered him. i mean, i. >> had a chance to. meet him and. >> his his parents served service to the country and to the military is like the air he breathes. the idea of sacrifice and the idea of reverence for the men and women who served. i mean, his religion is. >> to keep the faith. >> to the men and women of the military, to lift them up, to help put them back together. it is his work. it is his wife's work. talk about. >> who he. >> is to the men and women of the military. >> so i think that mark milley has always been a frustrated historian. at the end of the day, he is he you you can you if you would sit down and have a conversation with him, there is almost an absolute certainty that he would talk to you about the future of war and the history of war. he would often throw in references to attila the hun and the treaty of

westphalia. he he is he loves to talk about history. and i think part of the reason that we have heard some of these comments that are, you know, where he's he's even like that 60 minutes interview that you just ran while he was still the chairman. that was literally in his last few days as chairman of the joint chiefs. is he he is a student of history, and he loves to look back at how things have happened in the past and how they could repeat in the future. and i think that that drives a lot of the comments that he has made. i have to say, you know, one thing that's been really striking as all of this has unfolded and nicole, yes, his security detail and clearance were revoked yesterday by secretary hegseth, but this actually started last week on the day that president trump was inaugurated. general milley's brand new portrait that had just been hung up just around the corner from us here in the pentagon on the e ring. his portrait as the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, it had just been hung up only days earlier, was quietly removed. it was the area where it was hanging, was painted over. the holes were filled in. it's like there it was like it was never

hanging there. and then last night we went and looked at his, his portrait to be the army chief of staff, which was hanging upstairs that was hanging as of last night, this morning, 9 a.m, it was gone. and to top it off, the portrait of mark esper, who served as secretary of defense under president donald trump in his first term and served as his army secretary before that. his army secretary portrait is gone. his secdef portrait is still hanging up. i feel like i'm sort of moonlighting right now as a portrait correspondent, walking the halls, seeing what is still hanging, what is not. we are asking for specifically for statements about that, but we're keeping an eye. the reality is there were other people besides mark milley who ran afoul of president trump, both in his first term and in the time after that. and their pictures are hanging here, and we are continuing to look to see which other ones are being taken down. at this point, we're not really sure where those portraits have gone beyond people here assuring us that they have not been damaged or destroyed. >> brigadier general steve

anderson, why would you need to erase general mark milley if you're donald trump? >> because i'm. >> petty and. >> because i'm i'm all about fealty. >> and loyalty to myself. >> and doesn't understand. >> loyalty to. >> the constitution. >> that's why. >> i mean, welcome to germany, 1933. >> i mean. >> you know, he's trying to intimidate members of the. military like mark milley, to be subservient to him and, you know, and not stand up and not not fight and defend the constitution of the united states versus fight and defend him. that's what he wants. >> this is a. >> shameless political act of retribution. i mean, so much for. >> pete hegseth. >> assurances to get politics out of the military and focus on a warrior culture. i mean, the first thing he did was a political act of retribution on behalf of donald trump, going

after one of the greatest. warriors that this country has. >> ever produced. >> i mean, mark milley was an. >> incredible soldier. >> scholar, statesman who served in. >> the great tradition. >> of george c marshall. >> and it's. >> just so sad to see the marshall corridor now is devoid of his, his, his, his painting. i mean, but he was an american. >> patriot who. >> sacrificed so much, a. princeton grad, he could have gone on to make all kinds of big bucks on the outside. but no, he served. >> he picked. >> a life of selfless service. >> to our nation. >> he served in iraq, afghanistan, bosnia, panama, korea. i mean, going on and on for bronze stars, for crying out loud. commanded the 10th mountain division, one of our most storied. >> divisions in. >> the. >> united states. he sacrificed so much for 44 years. >> and to see. >> him treated like this, i mean, it's just reprehensible. i mean, we're not talking about national security here. we're not talking about the war in iraq or, excuse me, in ukraine or gaza. we're not talking about

building relationships with key allies or protecting americans from, you know, terrorists. no, we're talking about an act of retribution on behalf of donald trump. and it's just shameful. >> it is an act paul rieckhoff carried out in the name of the american people. paul. pete hegseth salary is paid. by the taxpayer. he was confirmed by the united states senate, the first secretary of defense ever to. >> be opposed by. >> bipartisan senators. i think that is the history that he made in opposition from the democratic party in total. and three republicans. and one of his first acts is to carry out a retribution campaign against a. fellow soldier. it it it shouldn't boggle my mind. i'm embarrassed that i can still be horrified by anything that trump does, but i'm horrified. >> this is. >> what we. >> predicted and warned could happen. >> it's disgusting. it's dishonorable. >> it's damaging. >> and it's deeply dangerous. just on a very basic national

security basis, if. >> you send a message to the world that we will. >> not protect. >> the former. >> chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, our enemies. >> are celebrating. >> he has protection. >> because the iranians want to kill him. right. that's that's part of it. but then there's also the threat from. extremist groups. there's any. number of threats from a lone wolf. >> the president. >> himself knows. >> that because he was shot this past summer. so the chairman. >> of joint chiefs should have security. all chairman of the joint chiefs should have it, just. >> like cabinet secretaries. >> need it. >> because if they. >> don't. >> they are a trophy. >> for our enemies and they. have security value. >> that is immeasurable. >> but it's also. >> more than just erasing history. they're trying. >> to. >> erase opposition. >> what they're saying in the first. >> couple of days is if you oppose. >> us, we will come for you. >> we will make. >> an example of you, and we. >> can even get the chairman of the joint chiefs. >> of staff. >> and if we can get him. what message does that send to cascade across the entire military? they are setting a tone, and the tone is of loyalty and fealty. >> and obligation. >> and to put that above anything else, and if you cross us, this is what happens. >> courtney. >> let me just come back to the

iranian threat. i mean, from the outside, the thing that stitches three of the four people that we have learned, trump stripped security from pompeo, bolton and milley is the stated public threat to assassinate everyone involved in the soleimani strike. >> are you. >> aware of any i mean, what did. pompeo and the reason. i list that group of three is i don't know anyone that understands what it is that pompeo did to make trump angry. what is the answer inside the pentagon for how to protect people who carried out a commander in chief's order? at the end of the day, it was trump's order to carry out the strike that killed soleimani. what is the military's response to leaving people who were simply following an order from a commander in chief exposed to threats not just of violence, but of an assassination from iran? >> i have to say there are a number of people who were involved in the soleimani strike who are still and have a very

real active threat against them by from iran, who have not been touched by this. and, you know, just ethically, i don't think it's fair to name them here at this point. but but there are a number of people, a number of people who have not had their security pulled. and i don't really understand exactly what this is. i think that part of the reason that general milley was targeted here is the comments that he made that you highlighted at the top, nicole. but also remember, there are people who have come into this administration, including the secretary of defense and others who are very close to donald trump, still want there to be someone who is held accountable for the withdrawal from afghanistan. remember, one of the major faces of that for the united states military or military was general mark milley. you'll recall that even after the strike occurred in kabul, that ended up killing an aid worker, a civilian aid worker and his family. remember general milley, initially as the chairman, came out and defended that strike before. we later found out that it was an errant

strike, that it was a terrible mistake that killed these innocent civilians, including a number of children. so general milley is one of the people who still is seen as one of those who was directly involved in that, who should potentially be held accountable. and keep in mind, nicole, he's someone who they can do that, being a retired military officer, a general officer, there is always the possibility that someone who serves as a general officer, paul rieckhoff, would know this very well. so. so a retired general, they know very well that that an administration can reach in and bring them back on active duty and hold them accountable in a military court of justice. if that is seen. so, general milley is one of the ones who is just frankly, accessible for them to go after about something like afghanistan. to nicole. >> courtney, thank you so much for your reporting on this. if you learn anything new with your arms and we'd love to bring you back, we'll keep the general and paul around a little bit longer. also ahead for us, donald trump today reversed his week two test

of presidential overreach, rescinding an order to freeze trillions in funding after seeing nationwide condemnation and fear. but the white house making clear this afternoon that they're not done trying to take full and total control over spending and the budget. and later in the broadcast, robert f kennedy jr, his cousin caroline yesterday called him a predator. today struggled to prove he's not an anti-vaxxer, facing hours of questions from u.s. senators, the start of his two day confirmation hearings. we'll get to that and much more when to that and much more when deadline. white house —hi! —hi! ♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. ♪♪ with the chase mobile app, things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily and send money quickly. [coins clinking]

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rage and i'm white and i want to understand it. so what is it that caused thousands of people to assault this building and try to overturn the constitution of the united states of america? what caused that? i want to find that out. i want to maintain an open mind here, and i do want to analyze it. it's important that we understand that because our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and guardians, they come from the american people. so it is important that the leaders now and in the future do understand it. i've read mao tse-tung, i've read, i've read karl marx, i've read lenin. that doesn't make me a communist. so what is wrong with understanding, having some situational understanding about the country for which we are here to defend. general, there might not be a moment, i think, where the public got to see sort of the curiosity that drives this, this general and the decency and, and the fealty to the constitution in practice.

and what is a quirk only of this political moment is that he was attacked for that. i think the maga movement revealed itself in its reaction to that. they didn't like what they heard. >> no. >> they did not. and it's sad because he's a great. >> american patriot. >> he's a great scholar and statesman, and he understands the difference between loyalty to a person versus loyalty to the constitution. and he understands, you know, to have be intellectually curious to how soldiers need to be thinking about things like that, to be exposed to other, other theories, theories. >> that doesn't. necessarily mean that they embrace. >> it, but they certainly should understand that. and they should be students of history. they should be students of our country. and they should they should understand where they stand within, you know, the great american society that we built here. and, you know, mark milley understands that. and he had the courage to speak up. and it's sad that people are taking shots at him now and that he's, you know, his security detail has been removed. and there's a tremendous threat against him,

not just from iranian hit squads, but also from people that are loyal to donald. >> trump for. >> his his willingness to speak up and to speak truth to power. you know, we just saw donald trump release 1500 insurrectionists. you know, what's not to say that someone couldn't try to hurt general milley? it'd be absolutely terrible if it were to happen. and then on thinking that he'd ultimately get a pardon from general from from the president. i mean, it's not that outrageous to think that that harming general milley. this is a man that general that donald trump said was guilty of treason and should. >> be executed. >> i mean, you know, it. >> only takes. >> one person to take that seriously. and, you know, so to. >> remove his. >> security detail at a time like this is. >> just reprehensible. >> it's an uncomfortable part of this conversation. but i'd like you to pick up on what the general is saying. harming general milley, a man trump

accused of treason isn't a leap in an age of the hammer. assault on speaker pelosi's husband. >> it's very real. >> the threat environment that we operate in. everybody from folks in media to political leaders to people in the military, everybody can be a target now. and all. >> it takes. >> is. >> one political leader. >> or one. >> fox news host. >> to call your name. >> and put. >> it out there. and this is. >> really, i think, ripe to ignite in. >> some really dangerous and terrible ways. >> and it already has. and i think we. >> have to. >> recognize that that threat environment is not just now it's been happening. we're entering a new normal. this is what. >> they. >> want to impose, and they want to create an environment where intellectualism and diversity and curiosity. >> and cooperation and integrity. >> are removed. and we're. entering kind of a new era that i consider kind of a cultural, intellectual. >> political great depression. we've got to figure out. >> how to. >> survive it, how to be resourceful. >> and how to endure and find. >> the spots to fight back. and this. >> is a spot where we have to fight. >> back as americans, not.

>> just as democrats, because i've said the democrats aren't. >> going to save us. this is another example. we need people to understand. the commander in. >> chief has. >> to prioritize, above. >> all else, our national security. >> so every. >> decision he makes should be, is this what's best for our. >> national security? >> is it. >> what's best for our national security to have our political. >> wing attacking our military? >> this is. >> a great day for putin. it's a great. >> day for our enemies. >> and that's what they're continuing to do. >> is. >> put politics ahead of our national security. >> and that's. >> why i still think we can appeal to some republicans. >> mitch mcconnell voted against hegseth. no one thought he would, except for those of us who've been watching him. and we have to continue to try to expand that aperture all the way down from tulsi gabbard to rfk jr. today. >> general. >> one of the things that i don't know if it's interesting, i don't know if it matters, but it's notable is that trump and the democrats are operating and moving around rooms as though trump won in a landslide. trump won by the narrowest margin in history, and the things he's done in the last seven days are

unpopular. let me read this to you from reuters. quote, trump's approval rating slipped after his first week back in the oval office, during which he issued a slew of executive orders, according to a poll published tuesday. the reuters poll shows that 45% of participants approve of trump's actions so far. trump's disapproval rating shot up by seven percentage points from 39% to 46% of survey takers who were displeased with his new measures. do you know what is most unpopular? that he's spent the most capital doing? seeking out revenge against his perceived enemies? and do you know what enemy perceived enemy is the most popular generals. i mean, not that you have to hope that that sort of his own political survival instincts kick in, but is the inverse also a lesson? i mean, does does a political figure need to step out from the military as the leader everyone is craving right now? >> well, it. >> probably be a pretty. >> good. >> thing if it were to happen.

>> i mean, you. >> know. >> most of us. >> like mark milley. >> you. >> know, we and. >> myself, we were raised. >> to be apolitical. i mean, i spent 31 years in the army. i was proud to serve for the time that i did. i never knew if my bosses were republicans or democrats. i never knew if any of my people were. >> i didn't. >> know. >> i didn't care. >> we were we were taught. >> that civilian leadership. >> of the military is a time honored tradition of our nation, and a bedrock of our of our democracy. and so we've always been taught to be apolitical. but, you know, in the case of general milley, i mean, he was simply speaking the truth, the truth that. >> needed to be said. >> and to. >> be needed to be heard. and i think. >> that he. probably much. >> like. >> i am and many. >> others who on. the 6th of january 2021 said, okay, wait a minute. i mean, we've been. >> raised to. >> be apolitical, but now is the time. >> to step up. i mean. >> because something is fundamentally wrong.

>> in our nation. >> and, you know, are. >> we going to wait. to for our voices. >> to be heard when the jackboots are marching down the street and. >> our kids. >> get enrolled in trump. >> youth. >> you know, and the whole thing, i mean, is that it's going to be too late if we wait till then. so now. is the time to speak up. and i would encourage all my brethren. >> in the military. >> retired military, such as myself, to speak out and to try to ensure that our. democracy is protected and that assaults. like this against general mark milley will not be tolerated by the american people. and we will not let allow our nation to be run down any further. we're going to stand up and our voices will be heard. >> well. >> when you speak privately with your former colleagues, please tell them they always have a forum here. i mean, i think the military is still held in such high regard. i know it is very difficult for any active duty

military person to speak out at all, especially in this climate. but if there are folks with something to say, they always have a seat at this table. brigadier general steve anderson, thank you for starting us off today. >> thank you. >> up next for us, the very latest on donald trump's drive to assert total control over the federal government while offering millions of federal employees a buyout to leave government fresh, new confusion from our friends at the white from our friends at the white house. but at bombas, we make absurdly comfortable socks, slippers you'll float in, and underwear and tees that feel like clouds... no, bunnies. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. it ain't my dad's razor, dad. ay watch it! it's from gillettelabs. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face... gamechanga! ...while the flexdisc contours to it. so the five blades can get virtually every hair in one stroke. for the ultimate gillette shaving experience. the best a man can get is gillettelabs.

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regular coq10. kunal. >> the brand i. >> trust. it is both the oldest trump story and the most predictable one. the confusion, the chaos. whiplash doesn't begin to describe it. the back and forth from the white house today on its attempted freeze of federal spending, and then unfreeze. the american people woke up this morning expecting to have that order challenged in court. that was the news when we went off the air yesterday. that was until the white house issued a statement this afternoon suggesting the order that they release that was put on hold until monday was going to be rescinded. but hang on a second, that a short time ago that changed again. the white house press secretary said this, quote, this is not a rescission of the federal funding freeze. it is simply a rescission of the omb memo. what to end any a why to end any confusion created by the court's injunction. she

seemed solid for making confusion aside, the effort to freeze federal spending appears to be a sweeping overreach of presidential power that even they recognize, and a sign that donald trump won't let something so silly as the constitution or court order get in the way of taking a sledgehammer to the federal government and remaking it in his own image. for the same reason, millions of federal workers were asked yesterday to decide between accepting a buyout and eight month's pay, or returning to the office full time, and thereby running the risk of being furloughed later on, or perhaps fired altogether. if only the choice were that simple. here's senator tim kaine. >> so my message. >> to federal employees. >> who receive. >> this is. >> yeah, the president has tried to terrorize you for about a week and then gives you a little sweetheart offer. if you resign in the next week, we're just going to pay you for doing nothing for the next seven months. don't be fooled. he's

tricked hundreds of. >> people with that offer. >> if you accept. >> that offer and resign. >> he'll stiff you. just like he stiffed the contractors. he doesn't have any authority to do this. do not be fooled by this guy. >> joining our conversation is president of media matters for america, angelo carusone. also joining us at the table, democratic strategist and professor at columbia university, msnbc political analyst basil smikle. paul rieckhoff still here. all right. angelo, was this draft memo in the project 2025 amendments and footnotes. was this something that you saw coming? >> the plan. >> was what's happening right now was part of the. >> strategy was to. create trauma. >> for federal employees. >> in fact, wrestlevotes said that. and i think it's really critical. you know, there's all this discussion. >> about, you know, some pressure, some public pressure, these judicial orders. but i also find it extremely important. >> to note that they.

>> started to sort of obfuscate. >> and. >> say they were. rescinding and try to walk some of these. >> things back. >> right. when russ vought came into the focal point and democrats started saying. >> they were. >> going to do everything possible. >> to slow down his sort. >> of. >> approval, to move in to become the omb director. >> and that's the answer to your question. this was part of the plan. the part of the. plan here was to create as much trauma. >> and confusion. >> for individual. >> employees of the federal government, as. >> well as the functions. >> of. >> the federal government. >> so you kick. >> up a. >> storm, you make its dust as much dust as. >> possible. >> and then it just turns into a. >> good old scrum. >> and on balance, because. >> of the narrative dominance that they have and a lot of the rolling. over and capitulating. >> that we're seeing in the broader media. >> landscape, they will carry trump's water. there's a likelihood that trump will succeed in. >> in winning. >> out those narrative fights. >> but meanwhile, the. >> real. >> fight. >> the fight over the levers. >> of government are civic institutions. that's what they're laser. focused on. so all of this. >> is about. >> these initial days creating as much when you have inertia, it works in both directions. if everything is static, you need

to do everything possible to get it moving so that then you can start moving the pieces. so yes, this was a part of the project. 2025 plan. and i'll wrap up by saying this. >> let's just keep. >> in mind that russ. vought had a 180. >> day agenda. it was a document. >> about how you implement project 2025 and a step by step, day by day. >> basis with. >> orders. >> with a. >> plan, with a process for who they would. >> be. >> going to do. you put the freeze in place. >> you then execute this. you create. >> as much confusion. >> you get the sort of workers to start to resign and that's it. >> and then. >> you use that fog. >> to continue. >> to barrel. >> along and. >> implement and take over the real levers. >> of government so that ultimately you can get control. >> right now it's about getting control, and that's what they're doing. >> let me to your point, angelo, just just put up a list of the things from project 2025, which i should say, 57% of registered voters do not like. here's what they have done here. this may explain some of the polling i just read from that, that trump's approval has plunged almost ten points in one week.

these are things that trump has done that is in project 2025, suspending refugee admissions, suspending asylum claims, sending the military to the southern border, declaring there are only two genders drilling for oil and gas in alaska, withdrawing from the paris climate agreement, withdrawing from the world health organization, withdrawing from a global tax deal, ending protections for federal workers. ending diversity, equity and inclusion programs. freezing federal job hiring, revoking security clearances, ending efforts to fight misinformation and disinformation. project 2025 is so unpopular that trump, when he was asked about it, said, that's not i don't i don't know those people. i never heard of them. and unfortunately, you know, half of the voting public believed him, voted for him anyway. where do you see the political exposure, and do you think we've sort of in a post-political moment where that won't matter to any of these folks? >> that question for.

>> me. >> yeah. >> of course. >> yeah. >> i mean, i think. >> that's the. >> real challenge. >> here is that. >> people don't like project 2025, but they have to. and that's probably where this flare up came. when that freeze happened, people started to connect the dots. they said, oh, wait a minute. i get direct access to that program. so even the uncertainty created a question for individuals. now, in this case, and this is why. >> we. >> have to be really careful. and this is ultimately why trump can sometimes be successful in these moments that we have to start with the facts, but also realize. >> that. there's a narrative. >> unfolding here, is that if you. >> say that they're taking away your ability to buy food and that it doesn't. >> happen, the media loses. >> credibility. >> the. >> democrats lose credibility, and. >> they gain credibility as a result of that. now that's true. that was what was about to happen and what. >> was. >> about to unfold. so to me, it is a real political liability. but the connection and the real. >> question here as to whether. >> or not there'll be political consequences is whether or not individuals are able to see that connective tissue to. >> these real world policies. >> and i think that is, to me. >> the big takeaway. >> here, both for the media and for democrats, they have different interests, but they're

an important part. >> of this story. and maintaining. >> our society and. >> preventing them. >> from exercising. >> this sort of extra legal. >> control over. >> the levers. >> of government is to not always take the bait on the. >> fights that they want you to fight about. >> but that these things have. >> to be connected to. >> the. >> real lives. >> of individuals. there's a whole universe of people that voted for trump, for the vibes, and because they assumed that the things that they rely on are not going to be taken away from them or affected or undermined. >> and the. >> second that happens, the ability for them to control the narrative will unravel. and then. >> all the political fallout will come as a result. >> of that. so it's. >> a. >> liability potentially. >> yeah. it's such an important point. i mean, i noted yesterday that it was the first day the democrats seemed to really get their groove back yesterday and seem to remember why they were there to do just that, to connect these government policies to people's lives, actual people who wake up in the morning and go to a portal or website needing a service that they pay taxes or have earned as

veterans. and the fact that it wasn't there might not be there mattered. but it's such an important note about keeping the credibility. i have to sneak in a break. i want to press basil on that. on the other side. >> buying a car. >> is kind of a big deal. there's like a. >> million options. >> and you deserve. >> something you love. >> at cargurus. >> we get it. as the. >> number. one most. >> visited car. shopping site, >> visited car. shopping site, we make (sneeze) (hooves approaching) not again. your cold is coming! your cold is coming! thanks...revere. we really need to keep zicam in the house. only if you want to shorten your cold! when you feel a cold coming, shornothing is moream important than family. (revere: hyah) a family you're born into, a family you choose or a family you make. i'm padma lakshmi. i came to this country when i was four years old with my mother. we came here because it was a land of opportunity. but for many, that's not the case.

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which is so reliant on intimidation, threats of violence, threats of prosecuting the media and disinformation. do you think that well, what do you think? where do you think democrats go from this? >> yeah. so there's there are a couple of issues here. one, you have to realize it's a marathon, not a sprint. last week was a long year. and every. week for the next four years is going to be exactly the same way. so there's one school of thought that says you have to pick and choose your battles. but i actually don't think that's what that's exactly what's happening. what i think is happening is there's a macro and a micro. there's the sort of macro messaging that you have. some people like chris murphy and an aoc promoting. but one of the things that i think has been different over the last day or so is that with the freezing of these resources, these monies, members of congress and democrats were hearing it from the ground. they were hearing local organizations, regular people saying, are you kidding me? what is this? and it's the adoption of that language and

those narratives that i think have pushed through, which is we're going to hear from regular people. it's not going to be sort of top down. it's not going to be elitist. these are everyday people that are being affected by what's happening in d.c. and the truth is, regardless of, well, there are issues where this is mostly this, this, this desperately targets people of color. but there are there is some connective tissue across states and across ethnicity and party. and i think being able to elevate that language has really helped. that's probably a strategy for the next couple of years, but it's also tied to something that angela said, which is donald trump's narrative. dominance can only work if there are no civil servants to counter that. so the sort of what i've noticed over the last few days, he'll come out with a statement, and then you have all these civil servants from across the country, people that work in agencies saying, that's not true. let me put out the real information and that sort of

micro resistance is really important to helping democrats sort of stop that narrative and say there are actual people on these jobs that do them very well, that have institutional history, that can speak for what's happening on the ground. and that's why i think over the last few days, elevating those voices becomes critically important. >> federal government. >> is. >> a huge. >> employer. >> and when you threaten 2. >> million of them. >> with their jobs. >> the country is going to push back. >> and i don't. >> actually think. this is necessarily. >> a win for the democrats. >> i think the. >> democrats have been lacking strategy, lacking leader, lacking clarity. they're losing. >> on the narrative. this is the american people pushing back. 30% of federal employees are veterans. so there are tons. of friends of mine and people. >> we know who work at the va. >> who got that email, and they're pushing back and they're posting it on facebook. and it's kind of a ground game pushing back against trump. >> and i think importantly, it's a ground. >> game of republicans, democrats and independents. >> it's not just democrats. >> so the question now is not just can the. >> democrats put. >> it together and score some. >> wins and hopefully. >> even get the easy wins, but

can. >> someone pull all. >> those. >> groups together in a macro. >> narrative and represent. >> some kind of. an opposition. >> with clarity. >> to counter the. narrative and push back on. >> behalf of all americans, not just the partizans, not just the democrats? >> the only thing i would say about that is something that i've had to talk about a lot. you know, when the folks that argue that there's this democratic malaise, i say there's no malaise. folks are trying to be very intentional about the work that they're going to be doing going forward. the problem is that that coalition that you're talking about was supposed to work last year, and it didn't. and i think there are a lot of voters right now, particularly of color, who are saying, i'm not sure if i trust everybody that i was marching with. now we got to go figure out now what this new coalition is going to look like. that's not something that happens overnight. that is a that's going to take some time. but i think there is this moment where folks are trying to figure out what does that next coalition consist of. >> i just sneak in a quick >> i just sneak in a quick break. i'm thinking of updating my kitchen...

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begin leaving out parts of the government by converting people to favorable positions and replacing them with the loyalists that they previously. >> vetted. >> which will allow them to secure more control over the key levers of the institutions that they need to change things right now. so that is the next step. and we just have to be aware that along the way, there are going to be these outrages and moments, and there's going to be these norm busters, two things that break norms. and sometimes some of those norms are things that everybody hates, and we shouldn't be defending them, and we should focus on the things that are going to affect people's lives and recognize that this, for. >> them is. >> not an exercise. >> in just. >> changing government. >> it is. >> an exercise in reshaping our culture. and whereas democrats broadly, i think, fall in the trap sometimes saying we have to fix the government, we have to make this work. this is bigger than that. so that's. >> what's next. >> and they're going to use that speed, that speed in which they execute it to, to help build confidence and momentum for their for the trajectory. >> we're going to need you. please stay free between 4 and 6. angelo paul rieckhoff, thank you for spending time with us as

well. basil sticks around a little bit longer. up next for us. do you know the difference between medicaid and medicare? because donald trump's pick to run both those agencies had a lot of trouble distinguishing one from the other. what happened at rfk? bumpy confirmation hearing is our next confirmation hearing is our next story. ♪♪ amazing. jerry, you've got to see this. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. stop waiting. start investing. e*trade ® from morgan stanley. -i need to get me a new phone. -trade-in that busted up phone and get you a brand new iphone 16 pro at t-mobile. it's on them. families save 20% every month. what a deal! new and existing customers, trade in your busted old phone, and we'll give you a new iphone 16 pro with apple intelligence on us. relief. work. play. >> blink.

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(800) 378-9643. >> call now. >> if you want to move from advocacy to public responsibility, americans are going to need to hear a clear and trustworthy recantation of what you have said on vaccinations, including a promise from you never to say vaccines aren't medically safe when they in fact, are. frankly, you frighten people.

>> hi again everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. quite a display on capitol hill today is donald trump's choice to be the top health official in the united states of america. robert f kennedy jr appeared in the first of his two senate confirmation hearings to lead the department of health and human services. kennedy has stoked dangerous conspiracy theories on a range of health issues over decades, including spreading lies and skepticism about vaccines, especially the covid vaccine. he has linked school shootings to antidepressants. he wants to take fluoride out of our water supply, and he wants to remove restrictions on raw milk. on the eve of his hearings, his cousin caroline kennedy sent a scathing letter to the united states senate saying her cousin is unqualified to serve as hhs secretary, even calling him a, quote, predator. today, rfk jr backtracked on his controversial past statements, his appearance essentially amounting to trying to pull a fast one on congress.

he started off denying his anti-vax positions, saying he is, quote, pro safety and for good science. he confused the government health programs, medicare and medicaid, and he flip flopped on his previously stated comments on women's reproductive health, at one point throwing the future of the abortion pill mifepristone into question. >> watch the president trump has made it clear to me that one of the things he has not taken a position yet on mifepristone a detailed position. but he's made it clear to me that he wants me to look at safety issues, and i'll ask nih and fda to do that. >> democratic senator maggie hassan of new hampshire dug in on some of kennedy's flip flops. >> i've clearly stated in the past that bodily autonomy is one of your core values. the question is, do you stand for that value or not? when was it that you the

values you've had your whole life in order to be given power by president trump? >> senator, i agree with president trump that every abortion is a tragedy, that we can't be a moral authority in this country. >> so but that isn't what. you said back in new hampshire in 2023. my question is, exactly when did you decide to sell out your life's work and values to get this position? >> senator, i agree with president trump that every abortion is a tragedy. >> so what you're telling. >> us, just to be clear, because my time is limited, is that regardless of what you believe, regardless of what values you have, if president trump tells you to do something, you're going to do it. >> i think the date is sometime around when kamala harris didn't take his call. now, when it comes to the role of our country's hhs secretary, that person oversees 13 different agencies, and they impact every single american. these conspiracies and about faces have real life and death

consequences. here's a remarkable exchange where senator michael bennet had a lightning round of questions for this nominee. >> did you say that. >> covid 19 was. >> a genetically. >> engineered bioweapon that. >> targets black. >> and white people. >> but spared ashkenazi jews. >> and chinese people? >> i didn't say it was deliberately targeted. i just i just quoted an nih funded an nih published study. >> did you say that it. >> targets black and white people. >> but spared ashkenazi? >> i quoted a study, your honor. i quoted an nih study that showed that. >> i'll take that. >> as a yes. >> i have. >> to move on. mr. i have to move on. did you say that. >> lyme disease. >> is a. >> is highly likely a materially engineered bioweapon? i made sure i put in the highly likely. did you say lyme disease is a highly likely. militarily engineered bioweapon?

>> i probably did say that. >> did you say that? >> that's what. the developer of. >> i want all of our. >> colleagues to. >> hear it, mr. kennedy. i want them to hear it. you said yes. did you say that exposure to pesticides causes children to. become transgender? >> no, i never said that. >> okay, i have. >> the record that i'll give to the. >> chairman, and he can make his. >> judgment about what you said. did you write in your book? >> and i it's. >> undeniable that african american african. aids is an entirely different. >> disease from. >> western aids. yes or no? >> mr. kennedy? i'm not sure. if i may. >> i'll give. >> it. to the chairman. mr. >> mr. kennedy, and my final question, did you say on a. pod cast and i quote. >> i wouldn't. >> leave it. abortion to. >> the states. >> my belief. >> is we. >> should. >> leave it to the woman. >> we shouldn't have the government involved, even if. >> it's full term. >> did you say that. >> mr. kennedy? senator, i believe that every abortion is a

tragedy. >> did you say it, mr. kennedy? >> this matters. it doesn't matter what you come here and say that isn't true. that's not reflective of what you really believe that you haven't. >> said over. >> a. >> decade after decade after decade. because unlike other jobs where confirming around this place, this is a job. >> where it. >> is life and death for the kids that i used. >> to work for in the denver. >> public schools. >> and for. families all over this country that are suffering from. >> living in the richest. country in the world. >> that can't. >> deliver basic. >> health care and. >> basic mental health care to them. it's too. >> important for the games that you're playing, mr. kennedy. >> wow, that's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. former white house covid 19 response coordinator under president joe biden and the dean at brown university school of public health, doctor ashish jha is back, plus president of reproductive freedom for all. mini timmaraju is here. also

joining us, msnbc political analyst tim miller, former rnc spokesman, now host of the bulwark podcast. and lucky for us, bezos michael is still here. i, i there are a lot of things that we just hold up a mirror to and say to da, trump won, and here's what's happening. but tim miller, i just need you to rewind the tape. how the eff did we get here? >> well. >> if you. >> rewind the tape back too. >> far, then. >> you wouldn't be able to find any. senators who would. >> vote to confirm this person. >> like this. to me, just. >> shows what the farce of today is, right? that that rfk jr. and, you know, maybe some hold. >> these positions. >> but not not any not any. republican senators, you. >> know, did. >> support abortion up till the moment of birth. birth was a. >> trial lawyer that sued companies on behalf of environmentalists, was a far left kook that pushed vaccine

conspiracies. i think most of those vaccine conspiracies. >> that were. >> far left kooks have now joined. >> the far. >> right kooks, and. >> they've kind of aligned in a in. >> a kooky alliance against the rest of us. but i, you know, this this was the type of person that if he'd walked. >> into a. >> republican conference meeting like 4th of july last year, they would have been like, get out of here. like. >> you're not. welcome here. >> you're crazy. so, you know, the democrats were asking him serious questions that he couldn't answer. and the republicans like, can't even really defend him. and so we have now a person that is unqualified. i mean, just you played those clips. i've had to suffer through half of it today. during the hearing today, marsha. >> blackburn. >> not exactly the sharpest knife in the senate, had to correct him because he didn't know what what agency doctor oz was supposed to lead. that's a real sentence. doctor oz is leading a different agency, and rfk couldn't remember which one it was, but that's going to be under him. you know, he guessed that 30 million children were on medicaid. when senator lujan asked him, how many children are

on medicaid, does he know how many people are in the country? like 3 million kids are born a year? he he said that heroin was easier to get off of than antidepressants. but today, that wasn't like in an old podcast from 2021. today, he said that during his testimony, like we just were kind of coming on the downslope of an opioid crisis, that all you had to do was like, watch one documentary about to know, like the ravages of heroin and how hard it is to get off of heroin. so and this is it's a preposterous nomination. he has his resume is zero. and the only reason that he's here is that he endorsed donald trump. donald trump gave him the job, and all the republican senators are scared of donald trump. so i guess that's the simple answer to your question. >> yeah, it's. >> just really important context. we're not here covering this story of this person whose own cousin calls him a, quote, predator. actually, let me just show you what caroline kennedy said about his hypocrisy on vaccines. here's what he did to his own kids.

>> bobby preys on the desperation of parents of sick children, vaccinating his own kids while building a following, hypocritically discouraging other parents from vaccinating theirs. >> that accusation that a human being, quote, preys on the desperation of parents of sick children vaccinating his own kids while building a following by hypocritically discouraging other parents from vaccinating theirs in any normal time for any job is disqualifying. and i guess maybe it's the rfk hearing that is so farcical that that i just wonder if the republicans really dig down, do you think any of them are saying, oh, am i really going to do this one time? >> you wonder? and the other contrast on the kids. one of my to me, the worst of all the rfk stories is he said himself that when he goes on hikes and he sees mothers with small children, he confronts them and tells them not to vaccinate their children like that. is the

behavior of a madman an insane person? will any republicans do the right thing? i don't know. look, there were three republicans voted against pete hegseth. you need four. so let's just say those three do. again, i don't think it's any guarantee, but let's just say you need one more. i'm here in louisiana. bill cassidy is a doctor. he voted to convict donald trump in the second impeachment. he asked he was the only republican in the senate that asked kind of a modicum of hard questions, serious questions today. and it wasn't so tough, but but he at least asked some serious questions today. and in louisiana, we have this jungle primary system where, you know, all the parties run together. so, you know, ostensibly, who knows, maybe his political career is not quite. as beholden to the far right as somebody in a closed primary state. so i look at him as potentially the fourth. but it's like, i mean, have you seen anything that would make you think that somebody like bill cassidy is going to use this moment to show spine? i don't think so. but as somebody that's a doctor that had already voted

to convict trump, that's career, political career might be over anyway. i mean, he might lose a mega challenge anyway because of that conviction. maybe he'd be the type of person that would do it. but. >> you know, i. >> wouldn't i wouldn't get your hopes up. nobody's made any money betting. on these guys. >> doctor, your your thoughts to what you saw today. >> nicole, first of all, thanks for having me back. >> look. >> if this wasn't. >> so serious, if this wasn't about. >> the lives. >> and health. >> and well-being of all americans. >> there would be something. >> farcical here. i mean, i went. >> into these hearings. >> saying he was. >> wildly unqualified, based on 3040 year track record. >> and then what. >> we saw today was. >> a guy. who said a bunch of things that contradicted. >> a four decade long. >> track. >> record, but also was a guy. >> who. >> was wildly. >> unprepared. >> as you. said in. >> your. >> opening. >> did not. >> understand and could not. >> explain. the biggest. >> insurance program. >> that. >> we. >> have in this country, 1 in 4. >> americans, is. >> covered by medicaid and is

touched by medicaid. and he didn't seem to know a thing about it, and he's going to. oversee that program. >> so there was. >> a lot to be. concerned about. and i have to say, i. >> tried to go into this with an open. >> mind and said, you know, look, let's see what happens. maybe he will recant, maybe. >> he will. >> but instead. >> what we saw was somebody. >> who has not. >> read up on. >> what. >> job he's actually. >> going to be doing, and asks us to believe that the decisions. >> he's going to make over the. >> next four. >> years, we. >> should judge. >> him based. >> on. >> 2.5 hours of testimony and not on for decades. >> 40 years. >> of a. >> track record. >> that's really just hard to believe. so very, very concerning. >> and the. impact on. >> people's lives is going to be substantial. >> doctor, let me show you his inconsistent statements just on one little slice of the mission of our nation's health agencies. >> news reports have claimed that i am anti-vaccine or any industry. i am neither. i am pro

safety. i believe that my that vaccines play a critical role in health care. all of my kids are vaccinated. what would i do if i could go back in time and i could avoid giving my children the vaccines that i gave them? i would do anything for that. i would pay anything to be able to do that. i do believe that autism does come from vaccines. there's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective. >> first, i'm just going to ask you to lay out the facts about vaccines and then just tell me what role the nih and the agencies rfk would oversee plays in vaccines. >> yeah. >> so first of all, the data on vaccines is extraordinary. >> vaccines are. >> we all. >> want vaccines to be safe. and by the way, there's. >> a very high bar. >> for clearing. >> getting approval for vaccines. they undergo. randomized trials. >> they have. >> to have an. >> extraordinary safety record.

>> and that is what they have. this is why this is what we use to authorize vaccines. >> in the united states. >> so that's point number one. he actually. >> has a. >> very large. >> role to play. >> people often say, well, it's going to be up to the cdc director. yes. he can. >> also shape. >> the advisory. >> body that actually. >> determines which. >> vaccines are going to be recommended. >> he oversees the program. >> that helps. >> pay. >> for vaccines for nearly. half of all. >> kids in america. >> so just. >> on vaccines. >> alone. >> he can do. >> enormous amounts of damage. >> and that's not. >> a theoretical nickel. >> we have. >> now read about. >> how his team. >> of people who have been in part. >> of that. >> anti-vaccine crowd are. infiltrating across. >> hhs, getting ready. >> to implement. >> their plan. >> the day he gets confirmed. >> we are going to see more kids with. >> with. >> measles, more kids with polio. >> in this country, all. >> totally avoidable stuff. >> this is just. >> not where we want. >> to be moving. >> in. >> this country. and yet. >> that is unfortunately. >> what's. >> going to happen if. >> he is confirmed. >> let me show you, doctor, some

of bernie, senator bernie sanders line of questioning. he's also not really committed to what he said today, which is pro safety. if that means vaccines. >> one of them is titled. >> unvaxxed unafraid. >> next one in the sold for. >> 26 bucks a piece, by the way. >> next one. >> is no vax. >> no problem. >> can you tell us now that you. >> will. >> now that you. >> are pro vaccine. >> that you're. >> going. >> to have your. >> organization take these products off the market? >> senator, i have no power over that organization. i'm not part of it. i resigned from the board. i was just a few months ago. >> you founded that. >> you certainly. >> have power. >> you can make that call. >> are you supportive. >> of this? >> i've had nothing to do with. are you supportive. >> of these onesies? >> i'm supportive of vaccines. are you supportive. >> of these? >> this clothing, which is. >> militantly anti-vaccine. >> i am supportive of vaccines. i will i want good science and i

want to protect that. you will not. >> tell the organization. >> you founded not to continue selling that product. >> it's dangerous. it's also just flies in the face of what these hearings are supposed to be. they're supposed to be in good faith. there's no good faith to telling a lie to bernie sanders about your role for an agency that you founded. i mean, he is a god in the anti-vax ecosystem. and if he told them to take the shirts down in a hearing, they'd be offline in 60s. i mean, how does anyone seriously consider anything he said today? the truth, if he lies in a statement about something. and i just think if you lie about small things, you're lying about the big things, the onesies. >> you know. >> and he. >> has a track. >> record of lying. >> about the big things. i mean, look, he. >> he keeps saying. >> i'm pro safety. >> guess what, nicole? >> i'm pro safety. >> i've got my kids all vaccinated. >> i care. >> deeply about. >> the. safety of vaccines.

>> vaccines undergo, you know, very rigorous testing through randomized. controlled trials. he just comes right out. >> and denies it says. >> well, why don't we run randomized trials? we did. that is exactly how vaccines have gotten authorized. he makes up stuff. he he sows doubt. and what we're seeing as a result of. >> his organization. >> and him is. >> now we're. >> starting to see. >> childhood vaccination rates. >> starting to come down across the country. and once he gets the power of the bully pulpit. >> as hhs. >> secretary, once he gets the control of. >> those agencies and all. >> the. >> ways in which. >> they shape. >> vaccines in our country for kids, we are going. >> to see a. substantial decline. >> there are so many really important health problems. to tackle. >> adding vaccine. >> preventable illnesses and deaths to. the challenges we. >> have to. >> face should. >> not be our strategy. >> and that is unfortunately. >> where. >> i think we're heading. if this man ends up. >> getting confirmed. >> we're going to need you. thank you for starting us off today. when we come back, we'll

show you what he said about abortion, what he said and what he didn't say. equally notable many is here, as is basel. we'll bring both of them in on this. and later in the broadcast, intrepid reporting from my friend and colleague alex wagner on what activists are doing to prepare and protect families with loved ones who are undocumented. for a dreaded knock on the door from ice. she'll join me on set. deadline. she'll join me on set. deadline. white house continues after if you take or have taken humira for moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis and still have symptoms... you don't have to settle. ask your gastroenterologist if switching to rinvoq is right for you. it's one of the latest treatments from the makers of humira. rinvoq works differently than humira and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can deliver rapid symptom relief, lasting steroid-free remission, and helps visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. rinvoq can lower ability to fight infections. before treatment, test for tb and do bloodwork. serious infections, blood clots, some fatal;

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your funds as soon as the same day your loan is on deck. >> the show began and continues being the place to have the hard conversations. >> a pregnant. >> woman with a life threatening. >> bleed, bleeding from an incomplete miscarriage.

>> goes to the. >> e.r, and. >> her. >> doctor also. >> determines that she. needs an emergency abortion. but she's in a. >> state where abortion is banned. >> you would agree, also, as an attorney, that federal law protects. >> her right to that emergency care. >> correct. >> i don't know. i mean, the answer to that is i don't know. >> we're back with mini, tim and basil. mini. your thoughts on the display before all of us as citizens? >> yeah. >> first of all. >> i'll say. >> i love. >> maggie hassan. >> and catherine cortez masto. they were. >> so strong, so. >> good all of a sudden. >> all the dumb. >> senators were. but i. >> special kudos. >> to. >> both of. >> them. >> for really nailing. rfk on. >> the abortion questions. >> look. >> you know. >> i think the important thing. >> that both. >> of them. >> were able to. >> pull out and. >> make really plain in today's hearing. >> was that rfk, despite all of

his past. >> statements, as. >> we've seen throughout all of this conversation about abortion, about. >> being so-called pro-choice, will do. >> whatever donald trump. tells him. >> to. >> do, and that is to execute exactly what was in project 2025. everything from revisiting medication, abortions, authorization, emergency medical care for abortion. >> as catherine cortez masto. >> was just grilling. >> him on, claiming. >> he's not sure, but then reiterating over. >> and over. >> again that he agrees with donald trump. i think a total of 5 or 6 times. that every abortion is a tragedy. this is straight out of the right wing, extremist anti-abortion playbook. it is straight out of project 2025. you know, i don't know what more evidence we need that that's what's happening with this administration. but rfk will absolutely. execute on the playbook, and we are seeing it in real time. so look, i think it was really, really important for the senators to grill him on these specific questions. but the fact of the matter is, i don't know that it

matters that rfk understands amtala understands mifepristone. what matters. >> is he'll do anything he's. >> told to do. and it's incredibly dangerous for this country. >> just help people understand what's on the line here, not just with the fealty to trump, that he. there's one thing that rfk nailed. it was that he's trump's guy. and again, on the same day that kamala harris didn't pick up the phone call, might be the answer to the one of the unanswered questions when he changed his mind. but let let me ask you just to lay out what will happen over the next four years if all the health agencies are led by trump's guy? >> yeah. so in plain terms, and you've covered this. >> extensively, medication. abortion is. >> the most available abortion and the most utilized abortion care in this country. in the states that still have abortion access. most of the blue states, some. purple states, thanks to

ballot measures and legislative fights. it is the majority of abortions. >> in this country. >> what the extreme. >> right have been trying to. >> do through the case that went all the way to the supreme court, matthew kazmarek in texas, his court. is create a backdoor ban on what is a legal and safe and over 20 years of medical evidence showing how safe it is, a backdoor ban on that medication by this fake outrage about the safety of medication abortion. so an rfk led hhs and rfk led fda, by virtue of being under hhs, would revisit medication abortions authorization and could end the access of medication abortion. it's so important to remember that the biden-harris administration went to great lengths to defend medication abortion, actually got medication abortion into brick and mortar pharmacies in this country, and democratized and made more available birth control over-the-counter. all of those big wins will be up for

grabs and rollbacks under a trump and rfk led hhs and on the emergency medical care case, as well as the. >> mifepristone case. >> that went all the way to the supreme court. >> it was a. >> biden-harris solicitor general that defended the administration on those points, and that enforced the emergency medical care law that would allow women in crisis crisis to who need abortion care to save their lives, who are airlifted from state with a ban to states without they would not enforce that law. that is adding devastation and tragedy to the americans living in those 22 states. with abortion bans and restrictions. it's frankly a nightmare we predicted come to life. the good. >> news. >> is we can organize and mobilize to fight back. >> and we're already seeing. >> democratic state governors and ags getting ready for the fight. >> basil, i want to come back to character. i think what was so striking about rfk jr's cousin caroline kennedy's letter was

that she she called him a predator, and then she described conduct that was sadistic, putting live birds in a blender to blend them, to feed to his hawks. she accused rfk jr of leading other family members down a path to addiction. again, i know trump didn't describe these cabinet picks as the best people, but there's almost a an effort to assemble people. who's the people closest to them describe as lacking the character for any of these jobs? >> yeah. i'm reminded that his family did a press conference when he was running for president, telling people not to support him because of all of these concerns about his background and his character. you know, in late 1890s, early 1900s, there was a progressive era movement designed to take us away from pure patronage and actually put people in positions that kind of knew what they were doing, that actually learned the job a little bit. if you wanted

to run a health care, health care, you knew a little bit about health care. this is by far. this is far and away from just simple patronage. this is to your point, this this decision to just put people who are just going to do damage to the american people. you know, when there was a time, there were some reports not long ago where some democrats might actually support him. what i'm glad for is that there was enough of a challenge to him from democrats that would hopefully disabuse anyone that he is somebody worthy of a vote, at least on the democratic side. republicans would probably still support him. and what is concerning is that he doesn't seem to have a backbone for anything. why is that problematic? because there might be some people that would buy into some of the language, because he often talked about safety. i want to make sure your food is safe, you know, are the vaccines safe? and there are people who believe that, you know, we believe some of that, some strand of that. and the fear is that as he talks about

it, we also have to remember this goes back to connecting the dots from earlier, that when he talks about food safety, there are a lot of poor communities that don't have healthy food. it's expensive, their food deserts. so there are nonprofit organizations that step in to try to provide that for those communities. and guess what? donald trump is, is seizing the funding. he's freezing the funding for a lot of those organizations. so you talk about one thing, but then you get undermined at the back end of it. he's going to be in charge of a lot of funding for teaching, hospitals, research, and then at the same time, at the same token, donald trump freezes that funding. so you have no. so he can't say that anything he would do or any policies that he would promote, even the ones that democrats may some democrats may like a little bit. you can't even say that he's going to fully go to the mat for you, because he's already said he'll do anything donald trump wants to do. and what donald trump has already

done is freeze the funding to be able to do any of those policies that some democrats may even be open to, so that connecting the dots that the leadership of the party is going to have to do, we're starting to see it with him as well. >> many thank you so much for joining our conversation about this. to be continued. tim and basil, stick around. up next for us, donald trump announces what could be the largest migrant detention facility of its kind detention facility of its kind in —hi! —hi! ♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. ♪♪ with the chase mobile app, things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily and send money quickly. [coins clinking] ♪♪ that's convenience from chase. make more of what's yours. no matter who you are, where you live, or what you believe,

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instructing the pentagon and the department of homeland security to set up 30,000 bed facility to house migrants at guantanamo bay. since 2002, guantanamo bay has been set up to hold foreign militant suspects. there are currently 15 detainees there. the wall street journal reports this, quote, pentagon officials said they were unaware of the plan. housing thousands of migrants would require construction of temporary housing and other facilities at the base. joining our conversation at the table, msnbc host, my colleague alex wagner. she's been reporting on how some new reporting on how activists are preparing members of their communities for the trump administration's pledge on mass deportations. tim and basil are here as well. alex, there is a i don't know if competence is the right word, but there is a frenetic show of force to how

these have been rolled out. the memo on on guantanamo bay, just the latest, but you're sort of where i think the story really is. it's how it's impacting people. lots of families have been here a really long time. yeah. >> and people who thought they were. >> here. >> under temporary protected status. or just, you know, have. >> become part of. >> the american fabric. >> there's so. >> much messaging on the right about criminals and convicts, and we're. >> just going to send them to gitmo because that's where they belong. >> and the. reality is, the vast. >> majority of people. >> who are here without papers are. >> mothers and daughters and sisters. >> and fathers and brothers. they have families. >> they contribute to our economic well-being. they're the backbone of. >> our economic strength in many ways. and so i went down to newark, which is where there was. >> a. big ice. >> raid last week, or one of the most. >> high. >> profile ones. >> that has happened. >> thus far to. >> understand. >> you know. >> just how. >> that community. >> is dealing with this onslaught of measures aimed squarely at them to make them. >> terrified, even if. >> they're not getting sent out of the country? what trump is doing incredibly effectively is creating a climate of deep, deep, deep paranoia.

>> and fear to the degree that people. >> aren't are maybe not sending their kids to school, don't. >> want to go to the grocery store. so what i did was try and understand how that community is. >> dealing with that. one of the ways they're doing it is by working with community organizers to understand what their rights are. and understanding your rights is part of. becoming someone with agency. >> so this is just. >> a little bit of sound from one of those rights workshops. >> that we attended earlier this week. >> there will never be enough lawyers in this movement to keep us safe. and so it is incredibly important that we remember that these trainings are like muscle memory, the same way children do fire drills. and now they walk out of the school and they're texting. they're not. >> even thinking. >> that's the sort of muscle memory we want to build here. okay. i'm going to ask that you repeat. >> after me. i am. >> i am somebody. >> somebody, and. >> i. >> deserve and. >> i deserve. >> full. >> equality, full equality. here and now. >> here and now. >> i am. >> i am. >> somebody. >> somebody and. >> i deserve. and i deserve.

full equality. full equality here and now. >> there are a lot. >> of. aspects to the workshops, but. >> it just. >> really it. >> was like. >> a gut punch to hear. >> people have. >> to reaffirm their humanity. i am somebody, and it really speaks to the way in which trump and his allies, stephen miller and tom homan, have absolutely dehumanized this group of people. they've made them. >> into monsters. >> and they're not. they're people just like us, and they have rights in the constitution. and this is about them seeing those rights again. >> as their own. >> i mean, alex, something that that i'm so struck by, and i had this epiphany when jacob soboroff was reporting in front of the mass deportation signs at the republican convention was two questions. one, how many who do they think is deserving of that? right. and you look at the polling on this and i feel like this is this is something that is psyched out. the democrats, 87% of respondents in a new york times poll support deporting violent criminals who committed crimes in this country. do you

know who did that faster and better than anyone? was president barack obama? yes. and i think by his team's telling, there were immigration activists outside of the white house for eight years because of the aggressive and sort of tactical nature by which he deported violent criminals in our country illegally. the thing that 87% of all americans support trump in his first eight days has already reversed on that thing that 87% of all americans. and i like to think most of the people carrying mass deportation now signs thought they were waving signs in support of what trump's spokesperson said from the podium in her first briefing is that she redefined criminals to now include anyone in the country legally, which actually isn't a criminal. it's someone who's committed a civil offense of being undocumented. how do the groups plan to sort of level set the public's understanding of what trump is actually now said from the podium he's doing? >> first of all, i would just say all the people. >> i. >> spoke with. >> understand that every

american. >> president deports people. >> they mentioned. president obama. what trump is doing is creating a panic, and he is being malicious. >> and cruel. >> in a. >> way that i don't think we have seen any. >> american president. >> in my lifetime. be right. it's not about getting them out. it's about. >> terrorizing them. >> and it's working right. >> the other piece of. >> this that is complicating. >> is that the. claims that these are these migrants are criminals, that. >> they're sort of bloodthirsty or they're, you know, bad actors. >> is not being met with. >> any counterpoint. >> right? it is literally. >> up to the. >> media and many and me, not just me, but to offer a counterpoint to. >> show who these people are. >> why? where are the democrats? >> because i. >> think they feel very cowed by the. >> 2024 election. >> they don't feel like, you know, look at the lake and riley. >> out as an act. >> as. >> an indicator for. >> democrats feeling like. >> they need to play. >> ball on. >> this. >> which listen from a. strategy standpoint, i'm. >> not i'm not i'm not in congress. but i. >> do. >> know that the mischaracterization. >> of this group. >> of people. >> has. >> independent of the ethical. >> and moral consequences of

what we're doing to them, has real economic consequences. >> it's not just that. >> they work in bars and restaurants. >> they work in construction sites. >> they work. >> throughout the american economy. >> they also patronize parts. >> of the american economy. >> you go to newark and it's like a. >> ghost town in the in the area where they had the raid, because. people are. >> terrified to go out. >> on the streets. these are small businesses that are getting affected. i mean, these. >> folks are part. >> of our country. >> they are part of the fabric of our society. >> denying that denying their humanity. will have a bounce back effect on us and not just our consciences on our. >> bottom line. >> and i think. >> that. >> you. >> know, democrats need to find the gumption to draw attention to the reality of things because they are they are in the shadows as. >> far as this. >> debate is concerned. >> do you know who never wanted people in the country illegally to be in the shadows in the months and years after nine over 11, a former border state governor who won twice to be the country's president, george w bush? i mean, the party is so

unrecognizable, and i'm not trying to glorify the party in the time of george w bush, don't get me wrong. but but this project of dehumanization, i mean, democrats should be responsive to the public. 87% of all respondents in at least one poll believe that what obama did was the right thing. deport people convicted of carrying out acts of violence, violent criminals who are in this country illegally that is wildly popular. and we are a nation of laws and of a border. but in eight days, trump's spokesperson has already gone to the podium and redefined the mission. it is not just to deport people in the country illegally who have committed violent crimes. it is to recategorize the existence in our country's borders as one of those crimes for which you could be deported. and i wonder, to alex's point and alex's reporting, why you think there hasn't been a more forceful response from any elected officials. >> yeah.

>> well. >> look, because the republicans, it's obviously they're just totally in league with whatever donald trump wants and would never step out on his signature issue. so that's the republicans. i do think the democrats are trying to find their footing on this. right. and maybe overstepped to the left in certain ways, particularly if you go back to that 2020 primary and kind of did get out of step with where the american people are on immigration issues. but you mentioned w but like, you don't even have to pick out a single president. you can go reagan, bush, clinton. >> bush. >> obama, all basically biden like all basically the same message on immigration, which is that we are a nation of immigrants. we welcome people legally. we welcome people fleeing terror. you know, we should deport people that are violent criminals. we should stop drug dealers like that kind of balanced position was the position of every successful politician in both parties. and i think that the democrats can, can recapture that if they try and they can talk about these extreme outlier issues and the two things that jump out to me from what you and alex were just talking about. one, she mentioned schools and how and how attendance is down. my new

colleague at the bulwark, adrian carrasquillo, is on this beat. he talked to a principal in chicago in an immigrant community, who said that attendance was down 25% this week. that's how much people are concerned about immigration raids in schools, like people are not for that. the guantanamo bay issue again, people might be for what? you know, i don't know what the polling would be on sending violent criminals, immigrants to guantanamo bay probably would be for it. but this notion of a mass deportation there and a camp, 30,000 people, i mean, at its peak, guantanamo bay housed 680 terrorists at its peak. so we're going to put 30,000 people there. how like in what way? in what manner? in what way? like that is, you know, like fundamentally un-american. it is not it's not cost effective, you know, across every possible, you know, justification, rationale or justification. it doesn't make any sense. and it's offensive. and so i do think you can take these opportunities where they overstep. one other

thing adrian reported was the detained detention of puerto ricans that are american here in american. he talked he talked to a couple of them. right. so they're going to be these examples of things that i, that i think people will react negatively against. and politically speaking, democrats should take the opportunity to do that and be on the side of people who are being menaced by an overbearing government that is trying to scare and terrorize people. >> it's such a good point. and i mean, politics are not inelastic. you know, one story, one episode, one family, one school can change the public's view. and i think everything outside of deporting people here illegally who committed violent crimes is an open question in terms of where the public is. tim miller, thank you for spending so much of the hour with us. we'll bring basil in on with us. we'll bring basil in on this. ale t-mobile's 5g network connects a hundred thousand delta employees so they can make every customer feel like they've arrived before they've left the ground.

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i'll go tell the coast guard. so check allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. the highlight of the day is mahomes getting the new iphone 16 at t-mobile. it's built for apple intelligence. hustle down to t-mobile like a dog chasing a squirrel... chasing a nut! at t-mobile get iphone 16 on us. old is he? >> one is 11. one is seven, and my oldest is 24. >> for the. two younger sons. have you talked to them about what's happening? >> they know. >> they listen. they listen outside the school with other kids. and i explain to all my kids what's going on. don't be afraid. hey, everything is going to be okay. we are okay. you are okay. don't open the door. in any case, you tell them they're safe. but you also say don't

open the door. so do they feel safe? >> i don't. >> feel safe. i mean, it's, like, really important to hear about a mom trying to advise. i mean, as a mother. yeah. you know, as people who understand the. brains of children talking to an 11 year old about, like, if i don't. >> come. >> home, this. >> is the plan. >> this is whose house you go to. >> and don't open the door anymore, because it could. >> be an ice. >> agent standing. >> there to take. >> me away. i mean. >> how do you. >> it's like you think. >> about all the. >> difficult conversations you have to have in. >> the 21st. >> century. >> but. >> that is. >> just like. >> the sense. >> of fear and chaos. what it does it mean the very act of that conversation is traumatic, right? that's the untold story of all these rates. that's the untold story of. >> you know, getting the. >> 30,000 beds ready at gitmo. there are children who are going to see their parents go away. their parents are not going to come home. they never come home again. i mean, that is the collateral damage. when tom homan talks about collateral arrests, he's talking about. 11 year olds and their mothers and their fathers.

>> it's hard to you know, i started the hour asking tim to rewind the tape. i guess i want to ask a version of that, but i but i think we know. i think we understand. i mean, i think the country has been hardened by a nine year, deliberate campaign of dehumanization. i mean, when trump described immigrants as vermin, i think i might have been the only error that led with it. i mean, people are so desensitized to nine years of 24 over seven rightwing media dehumanizing and lumping in together and painting with one broad brush. every person in this country illegally, that it lost the plot. i mean, president obama deported more violent criminals who were here illegally than anyone. and those stories and those campaigns and the dehumanization is so devoid of facts that we're in this place where this is happening and there's barely a whimper from anybody else. >> well, i tell you, my colleague at teachers college, bettina love, wrote a book called we want to do more than

just survive. and sadly, it just seems like so many of us are just constantly in this survival mode. that's why when you talked about the clip with the chant, i am somebody. it actually i got tears in my eyes because i was listening to jesse jackson say that in 84 and 88 at the democratic convention, and that's what spurred me into getting into politics and public service, because it mattered that somebody looked like me on the national stage, was able to say that and affirm his humanity. so when you think about it, back in the 80s till today, we still have to do that. so when there was an argument and this is why i do differentiate a bit between sort of the democrats, maybe in congress and those that are on the ground fighting this fight, because i have said that donald trump was never talking about the economy. the economy wasn't the issue. he talked about what haitians eat more than the price of eggs. and guess what? the price of eggs has gone up. and he has said that he has no

control of that. he can't affect the price of anything. and he said that. so this was never really about the economy. >> bring it here every day, he said. he said it's hard to make things go down right. >> yeah. >> this was never i mean, it's true that there were people who were feeling economic distress, but this was never about the economy. it was about for trump, for trump, this was about dehumanizing people, dragging them down, making them seem smaller. and for a person of color to have to continue to say. >> i am somebody. >> and we are not beasts of burden that you can use and throw out. the fact that people still have to do that is, i think, what you're seeing, that so many leaders and profit leaders and activists are on the ground trying to protect folks to say, you know what, you can stay here. we will find a way to protect you. we're going to support you. we're going to if you can't go to school, we're going to teach you at home all of those things that folks say we have to do to survive, even

though we are tired of continually having to do that. can i be in that mode? >> i would also say this. >> is. >> an american problem. >> because the only. >> way if you cast a wide immigration dragnet, that you're going to pull people in, if you don't actually have warrants, if you don't actually not targeting criminals, you're just going after black and brown people. you're just looking. >> at people. >> and guessing that they're not from here. right? it is a problem for everybody in this country that americans are being racially profiled and being pulled into immigration. dragnets. the raid in newark, one of the people pulled aside was an american citizen who. fought in the military. when he showed them his military id, they still tried to deport him. i mean, we are talking about a level of lawlessness, a complete. disregard for the u.s. constitution that tom homan, the borders are, you know, readily embraces. he doesn't want people to know their rights. this is this is truly about creating a second class of citizenry in the united states. >> and that. >> second class is not. limited to people who came to this country without papers. it is everybody who seems and looks and feels different to donald trump and his allies. >> what is the level of, i mean,

activists on the ground always have won the greatest sense of the ground truth, right? and the fear is real and the fear is rampant. the fear is also there. point. what is the hope that the public will see what's happening and say, this is not what we meant. we met the people in jails convicted of crimes. >> they are one of the one of the organizers of that event said that we are going to build a fortress of resistance, and they don't mean that in the sort of, you know, classical version of the resistance. but we are going to tell people that they have protections under the ustio know those protections. they are going to band together, not just with other vulnerable, marginalized people, but with people who are here in the country legally. and that's the work of the movement, i think, right now, which is to be unifying across, you know, legal status and for people to understand that they are somebody and they do have rights. i think the larger question of what ultimately happens to them, many of these people may get deported, right? that's a choice. that's that's up to trump. but in the interim,

staving off the fear and the panic and the feeling like they don't matter, that they're nobody, that this country has thrown them away or worse and wants to rip their children from them. that is what they're focusing on right now, combating those deeply scarring, deeply traumatic, you know, the realities that they are having to face right now. >> i don't know if this is a popular opinion among your kids, but i'm very happy that you're out there doing this, reporting and bringing it to us. so thank you. >> thank you. >> my friend. >> so nice. >> to see you. thank you for spending the hour with us. a new episode of alex's podcast, trumpland, airs tomorrow. join her as she travels the country reporting from the field and talking to people at the center and impacted by the president's policies and promises. scan the qr code on your screen to listen. you don't want to miss listen. you don't want to miss that, ever. another break for i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... ...thinking of redoing our kitchen. ...we are finally updating our kitchen. for all those people who never seem to get around to it... —...a breakfast nook. —chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving... —really? —really? at home or in-person.

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