join. this investigation, they are not. >> permitted to release documents or talk publicly. >> about the investigation without the consent of the ntsb. >> so i want. >> to. stress this. it is only the ntsb that will provide information related to this investigation. with one exception regarding the fatalities that occurred. that notification will be handled by the d.c. medical examiner. we will not be discussing. fatalities or names. that will be handled by them as the proper authority. so we want to talk. >> a little bit. >> about our process. we will analyze the facts and determine the probable cause of the accident, and then issue a report of. >> those determinations. >> i also. >> want to talk a little bit about some additional people. >> that are here with us. and they're very important. >> to us, and that. >> is our family assistance group. later today we will be briefing the families. >> we normally. >> try to do this before a media

event, but in this case. >> they're still arriving. our family. assistance specialists are. >> already working closely with local officials and others to help assist them in their efforts to. support everyone that is affected by this accident. >> and let me just reiterate. >> what the chair. >> said. a loss of life in an aviation accident is very unusual in the united states, and our heartfelt sorrow goes out to everyone. >> that's affected. it affects us. it affects everyone around us. there are a lot of people. >> hurting today. we will help find out what happened. we will do it factually and we will do it accurately. as part of this. >> we. >> are going to be standing up some. >> specific working groups. those working groups. >> will. >> be operations. they will be looking. >> at the history. >> of the. >> accident, flight. >> crew members. >> duties for as many days before. >> the crash. >> as appears relevant. >> we will be forming a. >> structures group, which will

be the documentation. >> of the airframe wreckage. >> and the. accident scene, including calculation of. >> impact angles. >> to help determine the plane's pre-impact. >> course and altitude. >> we'll have. >> a. >> power plants group. >> they will do the. >> examination of the. >> engines. >> and the. engine accessories. we'll have a systems group. they will study the components of the plane's hydraulic, electrical, pneumatic and associated systems, together with the. >> instruments and elements. >> of the flight control system. we will have an air traffic control group. they will do. >> reconstruction and. >> review of air. >> traffic control systems. >> provided to and including acquisition of pertinent. >> flight track surveillance information. >> what you might typically. >> think of. >> as. >> radar or ads-b. along with controller, pilot. >> communications. >> we will also. >> have a survival factors group. >> they will be. >> doing. >> the documentation of impact forces. >> and. >> injuries, community emergency planning, and all crash. >> and. >> fire rescue efforts.

>> also, due. >> to the unique nature of this crash, we will be having a helicopter group as well. lastly, we will have a human performance group and this will not. >> be its own group. >> it will actually. >> be a part of the. >> operations. >> air traffic control. >> and helicopter groups. they will study the crew. performance and all before the accident. factors that might be involved. >> in human. >> error. >> including fatigue. >> medication. >> medical histories, training, workload, equipment design and. >> work environment. >> now we're going to take a few questions, but i will again stress we. >> don't have a lot of information now. we will. >> continue to gather that. >> we will. >> try to release it as. >> we can. >> but we will. >> only. >> talk about the facts of the case that we know right now. so i'm going to ask we'll call on a few people. i'm going to ask that you state your name and affiliation. >> james mike pence from the

state news. >> so we've. >> heard from president. >> trump today talking about the guy. hiring policies. >> within the faa. >> and associating. that with the cause of this accident. what do you say to that? well. >> unfortunately. >> i. >> didn't hear the remarks. i was. >> briefing house and senate members, but i believe chair would like. >> to take. >> them as part of any investigation. we look at the human, the machine and the environment. so we will look at all the humans that were involved in this accident. again, we will look at the aircraft, we will look at the helicopter, we will look at the environment in which they were operating in. that is part of that is standard in any part of our investigation. i'll turn it back. >> can i ask. >> you. >> has the flight data recorder been recovered yet? and what is the difficulty. in a water disaster like this, which presents a very difficult environment for your investigators and the people out on the water right now. >> well, the question was on the flight data recorders, and we

have not recovered the flight data recorders yet. we know they're there. they are underwater. this is not unusual for the ntsb. we have many times recovered flight data recorders in water. we have our lab right here. that is about a mile from the ntsb. so it's not unusual. and once we get those, we'll be able to get those read and information from them to be able to provide further information to you. i'm going to turn it back over to member inman. >> sir arthur henry. >> with. >> cbs news. earlier today, defense secretary pete. hegseth said a mistake was made last night based. >> off. >> of you all's initial. >> investigations and preliminary findings. >> have you all been able to tell whether this was human error or mechanical failure? >> the question was. >> has there been human error or mechanical failure? we don't know what we know just yet. >> we do. >> not know.

>> enough facts. to be. >> able to rule in or out human factor. >> mechanical factors. >> that is. >> part of the ntsb investigative process. >> and where all of these. >> groups will come together. >> it's one of the reasons why. >> the ntsb. >> is known as the gold standard. we will. >> take the time that's necessary. but i'd also like to. >> reiterate. >> if we. >> find something. >> that is a significant issue that. warrants immediate action, we will not hesitate to make. those recommendations. >> and make them public. >> we have a good track record on that and we want to continue doing so. sir. tom costello with nbc news. does it hurt. >> your investigative. >> process, maybe for the chairman to support your. >> investigative process? have the. >> president already suggested possible causes here? >> as you try to keep an open mind. >> and begin this investigation? >> tom, with all due respect, i think the press also likes to state what probable cause is before we get to the probable cause. so what i'm going to say is you need to give us time. you

need to give ntsb. it's not that we don't have information. we do have information. we have data. we have substantial amounts of information. we need to verify information. we need to take our time to make sure it is accurate. that's best for you. that's important for the families. it's important for legislators who are seeking answers to try to figure out what they're going to do about this. and so it will take time. we do have a lot of information, but we need some time to verify that. remember chase williams and. fox business. >> i'm wondering about the. >> conditions in the tower last night. were there any performance. >> issues in. >> the past with any of these controllers, anything. >> of that nature? >> questions about controllers. as i said, we are just now forming the groups. the controllers do have union representation, which they are entitled to. they will be working with our party system and our party groups. they will

be conducting interviews. those interviews will need to be analyzed, transcribed, and other team members will need to look over it. it will be a long process, but we will go through the entire history. >> my question is for the chairwoman to tell us more about what the president and vice president were. sure. so the question was about my briefing for the president and the vice president. as is standard, we offer briefings on our process and what we know. and this was a briefing with the president and vice president and with secretary duffy and secretary hegseth, and also the acting administrator of the faa. there was discussion on what we know so far, and our process, and that was about it. madam chairwoman stephanie ramos with

abc news, similar to the question, the president has stated what may have caused the crash. common sense. does that affect your progress at this early stage? yeah. so the ntsb, we are we conduct an a an important safety mission where we take a very careful approach. i'm sorry. the question was on speculating during investigations, which is we often hear about what i will say is we look at facts on our investigation and that will take some time. and at some point we'll be able to provide that factual information. as member inman said. and provide that hopefully tomorrow. >> hang on a second. dave shepardson from reuters, have you been able to retrieve the black boxes from the helicopter. >> as the. >> military decided.

>> whether they're. >> going to. >> read those. >> or the ntsb? >> and what about. >> the atc tapes? >> have you guys. >> seen them? so the question was about black boxes, which are referred to as black boxes, which typically orange. we have not recovered any of the boxes involved yet. we feel comfortable and confident that we will be able to. right now, recovery of life is probably the most important in those that were involved. i mean, there are still ongoing recovery efforts involving the fatalities involved, along with some debris is coming out as well. we will make sure that that perishable evidence is maintained. we have a great process for that. we will probably have more than one black box, so to speak. it's our understanding that the sikorsky helicopter is equipped with some form of recording devices, and those will be read either by the dod or by us. we have a good starting. relationship with them, and we've already made agreements in order to be able to do that. so i feel

comfortable in what we're going to be doing. the other question was about air traffic control. we received a very large package of information from the faa at about 3 a.m, i believe, this morning that is still being reviewed and analyzed. i would say there's a lot more information that usually comes in that than what you may find online and people might speculate about, and that is part of that overall process where we take the time to get the information correct and to make sure all the parties are engaged and involved and can fact check that information. >> one from cnn. >> can you tell. >> me if the. ntsb has reviewed this. >> faa internal. report that has been cited by. >> the new york times. >> indicating that the controller that was on duty at the time of the crash was doing a job that's usually done by two people. >> we have not reviewed any specific reports about the controllers at this time, at least from the leadership team. our investigators are continuing to pull all that information. their personnel records, their

files, where they were at, whether they were fatigued. all that information will be part of that investigative process. but right now, we can't speculate on anything that may have been reported in the media until we get the opportunity to validate and understand how it impacts the investigation, we're going to take just a few more questions. sir. >> yes. >> lauren cohan. >> uyghur magazine. what's the process and logistics like of bringing the families in? >> are they. >> coming into the airport. >> and how. >> are you going to. >> sort of the sensitivity of the. sensitivity of bringing to the place where. >> this tragedy happened? >> so the question is about the families and many of those families are still in route. some are still being notified from both the military and from the commercial crash. there is a family assistance facility that's being stood up by american and psa airlines in bethesda, maryland. they've already been working on that standing up. our team from our disaster assistance team has

also been coordinating with them. we plan on briefing them. it is customary that at some point, if the families wish to go to part of the accident site, that we would arrange such a thing, but it will only be when we know that it's safe. we have the correct perishable evidence, and we can do it in the proper modesty. that should be for those family members. it will be a little bit of a process, but it will take some time, sir, to follow up on the air traffic control. no. so are you. >> i know that we heard from some witnesses that they saw people were able to come down the sides of the plane. is there any indication that people made it off the plane to other. >> well, again, we will not speak to the fatalities. the dc medical examiner will. but i think the dc fire chief this morning very succinctly said, correctly, that we believe there are no survivors. >> there that did they did get out of the plane. last question, sir. >> so hang on.

>> a second. >> right now we're going through the debris fields. nothing we've seen would indicate that maybe slides or chutes were deployed. it was a very quick, rapid impact, but we've seen nothing in that regard so far from the evidence we have. but we still need to verify all of that information. one more question. >> sir. are you going to be looking at the family member's. cell phone? go ahead. >> jeff cohen. >> abc news. >> what do you. >> know about the altitude. >> of the helicopter at the moment. >> of impact? and can you. >> talk about the procedures for such helicopters. >> in that area? >> the question. >> was about the helicopter procedures. and in dc, it's kind of a unique environment. we've been getting briefed more and more by the faa. i'm not an air traffic control specialist, but they're actually helicopter zones, if you will, or tracks. and this one was transiting, i believe, from track 1 to 4 as part of their normal procedure. if you live in dc, you see a lot of helicopters going down into this area. so there's a very well defined system in that regard as far as altitude. until

we get the additional information, we can't validate or basically corroborate any of that until we get more of the electronic data and the data that's on the plane. i do want to clarify one question that also came about cell phones. you know, in today's age and time, a lot of electronics and other devices do contain a lot of different information. we found on a number of our accidents that we actually are notified through a smart phone that made sense, that as part of our process, we will obviously treat the all of the effects of the deceased with dignity. we are already starting to pull that information together. if we feel that it's necessary to find or pull some of that information, we will work with the families and make sure we do it in a in a manner that's respectful for them and their privacy. but right now, we don't have any plans specifically on that amount on that area until we need to. thank you very much, very much. >> all right. the ntsb there,

ending. >> their first. >> briefing after the. crash of a united. >> airlines regional jet. and a. >> military helicopter. >> i'm sorry. >> american airlines. my bad. >> the information. we got there. >> from the ntsb. >> was not. >> much more than. >> we already know. they got on scene. >> they are now. >> investigating, and. they will. >> be. >> the ultimate authority for what happened here. they're going to be. >> the. >> ones to tell us exactly what happened, because they are the ones leading the investigation. now that. >> it. >> is a recovery. >> effort. >> no longer a rescue effort. >> 30 days. >> from now is when they. >> hope. >> they're going to have their first. >> preliminary report. >> on what happens. >> they do not yet have any of. >> the black. >> boxes involved. so again, not much more to report on why this happened. >> although there is a whole. >> lot of the aftermath. >> that. >> is left to discuss. joining us now, msnbc anchor chris jansing, who's on the scene. >> for us. chris. >> give us a little bit more

about what you've been experiencing there today. obviously, the family members want answers. >> but then. >> again, so does the flying public. they want to make sure that they feel safe in the skies. and that's true, katie. everybody has questions. this has shaken us to our core. it has been such a long time since we had a major commercial air crash in the united states. having said that, i think what struck me about that press conference was the tone of it. several times we heard the ntsb chairman say, i want to level set, and then multiple people talking about how they are going about the investigation. and i think you mentioned this, and this is very important that only the ntsb is the only agency allowed to release factual information as part of the international civil aviation treaty. and in fact, this is sounding very much like a reaction to questions that are being raised about comments that

were made earlier today by president trump, who suggested a couple of things. he laid blame at the feet of his two democratic predecessors, barack obama and joe biden, and suggested that dei policies, particularly diversity policies related to the faa, may have contributed to this crash. he was pressed on that what proof he has. he had no proof for his suggestion. and in fact, ultimately did acknowledge what we just heard from the officials who are charged with getting the answers that everyone wants. and that is, they are very early in this investigation. so let me tell you, there are still divers in the waters of the potomac behind me. and last night, when they responded quickly to the scene, 300 people responded to the scene. and many of the divers were in those icy waters. they were looking, prioritizing at that point, they hoped rescue that eventually became

officially this morning recovery. and so this is really the first day for the ntsb to start getting the information together. and as you heard from the ntsb chairman, they have a lot of information. they are gathering a lot of information. they have found a chunk of the plane. it's in three parts, but they they know the. >> location. >> what they don't have is the time to really look at it, to investigate it, to analyze it. she pointed out that there are three separate areas that they look at. when they look at an investigation. the human part of it, the machine part of it, and the environment part of it. so those are all the things that are going to have to come together. and they have almost 50 people who are on scene right now. you also heard her say, katie, that they have, of course, a lot of people back at headquarters. they have a lot of people that will be trying to reconstruct any recovery of the debris that is found. but this

is a huge job that they have. and again, the beginning of that, prioritizing the people who are the loved ones who have lost their family members. and i spoke to a number of people who are close to this today. and as you can imagine, katie, while they want answers, they also want time to grieve. and that's very much what we're feeling here. talking to people from virginia, talking to people from dc, talking to officials that push and pull. yes, there is a job to be done, but there also needs to be a moment and an acknowledgment of the tragedy that happened here. katie. yeah, 60 passengers on. board that regional jet. >> a number. >> of them were children. a number of. >> them were. >> children. >> four crew members. and three. military service. >> members aboard. >> the. >> black hawk helicopter. >> you're mentioning. >> those three things that. >> they're going to be looking at the environment, the machines and the humans. the environment.

as we understand it, last night. >> was a clear cold, but a. >> clear night, according to the. >> transportation secretary, who spoke a little. >> bit earlier. and everybody who's been down there, when you're talking. >> about the. >> machines, they're going to be able to recover. those black boxes from the from the airplane and potentially from the military. helicopter to find out about any, anything that might. >> have been going on within. >> that. within either one of those two aircraft, including what was being said at the time by the pilots. >> you also had pete. >> hegseth, the newly confirmed defense secretary, saying a little bit earlier in a post that these were fairly experienced military members on the black hawk. >> helicopter and that they. >> were wearing night vision goggles. if that is indeed true, that could mean that their vision was it was not maybe as easy to see all the peripheries that they would have been able to see if they were not wearing night vision goggles during that training exercise. well, we will wait to find out more

information on that. and then, of course, the human element. and that's part of the human element. is there a human error here? did did those did the pilot of. >> the helicopter. >> not see the plane? was there an issue with air traffic control? all of these things are going to be investigated. the answers, the definitive answers. as much as you can get a definitive answer on this sort of thing will come out, but it will take time. joining us now is retired pilot and msnbc aviation analyst captain john cox. with that being said, it's going to take time to get definitive answers. when you were looking at this situation and you were starting to investigate it. what are the questions that you have? what are the suspicions that you would want to look into? >> well, first, i think i was very pleased to hear that the ntsb is already starting to gather large amounts of information, particularly from the faa. those are things like the radar data, the voice tapes,

anything else that that they have to start letting ntsb do the verification process. i was very pleased to hear chairman carmody say that we're going to do this following process, and the process is proven it will get to the right answers. what were the tracks of the two airplanes, specifically the altitudes, the air speeds? the those are things that are going to be defined down very, very, very closely. so that's one area. what information did air traffic control have. you know, all of these things. the questions are many. the answers are few. and right now it's the focus is getting the right answer, not getting a fast answer. >> i want to. >> get a little. >> bit more into the air traffic control and the faa and just stick with us for a second. captain cox, i want to bring. >> in. >> randy babbitt, a former faa

administrator. randy, thanks for being with us as well. we have a little bit of reporting from jay blackman, one of our producers, who covers aviation, and he says that a source with knowledge of the situation tells him, tells nbc news the staffing at dca last night at reagan airport was not normal for the amount of traffic and time of day. according to a preliminary faa safety report on the collision, this is his reporting from a source. the d.c. tower usually has a controller who focuses on helicopter traffic. the faa guidelines, though, do allow for that position to be combined with another controller's position. so one controller controls both airplanes and helicopters. last night, at the time of the crash, that position was combined. this is a reporting. the source goes on to say this is unacceptable or this is acceptable under the faa safety standards. that is certainly going to be a question. if it was. acceptable to combine these two roles and

if that did in fact happen, should it remain acceptable going forward? >> well. >> they're going to have to take a good look at that for sure. i think the difference between those two positions, whether it's. >> manned by. >> a single. or dual, has to do with the time of day and the amount of traffic. and as. >> the. evening goes on. >> and traffic. >> fades. >> you just don't need as many controllers. and they're trying to be. >> efficient. >> but it certainly will come into question. as we move forward. >> give me a little. bit about this airspace. the congestion in this airspace, as i understand it, military aircraft or military helicopters doing training exercises have a ceiling of 200ft. is there any circumstance where they would breach that ceiling, where they would be above it? and if they are above that ceiling, if they were, say, flying at 300ft and potentially in the path of another aircraft, would there be an alert that goes off? would somebody else besides the people inside the helicopter be notified that they have breached that ceiling?

>> well, it's an interesting problem. the equipment in the aircraft, that. >> traffic warning. >> and collision. >> avoidance equipment is. >> designed, you know. >> to notify. >> you of any positions where you see a potential for collision. >> and the. >> pilots get warned. >> and they get. >> warned with evasive. >> action whether. >> they. >> should go left, right, up, down. >> comes to them. >> however. >> when you get in close to the airport and at low altitudes. those warnings get dampened because there are so many airplanes. you can imagine if you're 500ft. >> on final. >> and there's eight airplanes. >> to be. waiting to take. >> off. >> you don't want alerts. >> coming from all of them. >> if you're landing on one. >> way and someone else is taking. >> off. >> you're completely legal and clear. but again, you'd get a warning. so they dampen those. >> so. >> you know, that's just a matter of fact. so that they did not get the type of warning that they would have been had they both been 1000ft higher. >> was this. >> surprising to you that this

happened in this airspace like this. >> very much? i spent much of my career as a line pilot flying internationally. yeah. >> that was. >> i was based here. and so i have a lot of experience. landing there. >> it was a. >> perfectly routine evening. you had a professional crew on board the psa airplane. >> everything was by the book. and from. >> everything i. >> know. >> and i don't want to speculate, but. and it was a clear night. >> i think, you know. >> there's some speculation the controller properly asked the helicopter pilot, do you see this aircraft? and he named it, and the answer was yes. i have him in visual contact. but i think the question that will come next is did you see an aircraft or did you see the aircraft? and there were several aircraft. if you look at the videos, there was a number of aircraft in line with the. the psa aircraft. and let's. >> you know. pray that you. >> know what happened.

>> he reported that he saw an airplane, but it was the wrong airplane. and that's purely speculation. >> purely. >> yeah. >> and again, the ntsb is going to have all these answers for us if they can find out that answer. in particular, if that helicopter pilot thought he saw the right plane, but was in fact looking at the one that was taking off that you see in this video that we're showing right now, please do stick with us. i want to bring in one other voice. this is retired u.s. army veteran and battalion commander, lieutenant colonel darren gob. he has hundreds of hours of experience flying blackhawks and has flown the same flight pattern as the blackhawk was flying in last night's incident. colonel, i heard you say a little bit earlier. first of all, thank you for being here. i heard you say a little bit earlier just what i was talking about with randy babbitt, that maybe that that blackhawk pilot was confused about which airplane the air traffic controller was alerting him to. >> it's certainly possible. and that's one of the things we

teach people. >> in army. >> aviation, is that airmanship. >> takes time. >> and airmanship means you go from being a. >> novice pilot into a senior pilot, and you start learning how. >> perspectives can shift based on. >> being in the. >> air, 200ft, or whatever the. >> altitude of. >> that aircraft. >> actually was. >> so when i saw that video, my first. >> impression was the fact that it. the. >> blackhawk did not change. >> its course. did not change its speed or altitude or anything. and that to. >> me, it. >> seems like they didn't. >> have any idea. >> that the aircraft was. >> directly in front of them. >> but to. your previous guest point, like you said, there's another. >> aircraft taking. >> off. >> and if. >> they confused. which aircraft. >> they were supposed. >> to pass behind. >> before they. >> could continue on. course on their mission, then they would have. thought they were perfectly in the. clear because they were well behind that. aircraft taking. >> off. >> and at night. >> to a point you can tell. >> the difference in size, but. >> for the most part. >> those aircraft are small commuter. they're all basically going to look the.

>> same and be. >> a few lights with. >> some dark. >> space in between. so it's the. >> perspective makes it very difficult. >> to potentially. >> identify those aircraft. >> and by the way, those. >> aircraft lights are mixed. >> into ground. >> lights, especially if that blackhawk. >> did happen to climb up. >> to a higher altitude. >> intentionally or. >> unintentionally. >> which we don't know yet, but. >> that's a feasible scenario. >> let me ask you about visibility. the range of visibility. what is it like in a blackhawk helicopter? what can you see? >> well, you can see. >> quite a bit. i've never had an issue with visibility in a blackhawk unless it's in basically extremely dusty environments or or low illumination. and low illumination matters both whether you're wearing goggles or not, wearing goggles or night vision goggles or not. and so there's never been really an issue as far as i've in my. >> personal experience, about being able to scan the. >> skyline around a major airport and. >> be able. >> to find and. >> identify aircraft. >> one thing that could be

noteworthy, and. >> it's just a. >> fact right now, it may not have any meaning yet, but with three crew members on that aircraft, that means you had both the pilots as mandatory to fly the aircraft at all and one crew chief. >> instead of two. that's okay. >> it's training missions normally have. or will normally have three, and that's fine, but it does mean you have one crew chief who's not looking out the. >> side. >> because they're looking at 90 degrees opposite of the pilots. out the side windows. and if one side doesn't have a crew chief, there's. aspects of the aircraft. >> where it's traveling that that the. >> crew chief will. not be. >> able. >> to see because they're not there. that's a fact. >> it may have bearing. >> in the future. it may. >> not. >> but it does. reduce the ability of a total. >> crew to identify an aircraft in flight at night. >> when you're flying those training missions. i grew up in helicopters. and, you know, i grew up with my father constantly checking above him and around him to make sure that there was nothing else in the

airspace. this was los angeles, where there was a lot of other news helicopters and police helicopters in the air. how much of that is just standard practice when you're flying a training mission in this area? i know it's so close to dca, which is i think people would say, why are they flying training missions near, you know, a commercial airport, number one. but how much, how much is it inherent for the pilot to constantly be checking the surroundings when they're when they're doing a training operation like this? >> it's standard practice regardless. >> of what. environment you're flying in, even if you're in the middle of a cloud, it's such an ingrained habit that you're still scanning and looking for things that could impact the aircraft's safe operation. and so whether you're in d.c. airspace or you're out in the middle of the desert somewhere, you do that no matter what, constantly. and that's what we that's what we train people to do. because as soon as you assume there's nothing there, that's when there's there is

something there. so it doesn't matter that it's in the middle of a city. in this case, i guess i'm struggling. >> i'm struggling, colonel, to figure out how he how he couldn't have seen it. i mean, i don't know if he did see it or not, but i mean, from the video and i know the vantage point is, is hard, but from the video, it doesn't appear that he, the pilot changed course whatsoever. there was no adjustment. you could see it. right. well, if you if you backtrack a little bit, you can see for an extended period the helicopter coming in fast and the collision. it doesn't appear that there was an adjustment. how would you not be able to see this? what? is there a blind spot potentially. >> there's potentially a very small blind spot. but given that distance between the two, it shouldn't have made it entirely disappear. i have one possible scenario that sticks out to me at this moment, and it assumes a few things about the location of the helicopter. first of all, you mentioned about the corridor having an altitude of 200ft. if

they had gone higher than that to the point where they were practically looking down at the civil airliner, the lights on the airliner could disappear practically or blend into the extreme light noise of washington, dc. i've had it happen to me in seoul, south korea, where i lost an entire 747 on takeoff from kimpo airport because it looked like moving cars on roads, street lights and things like that. given the angle and perspective i have now, this again is just a hypothesis for the evidence that i see. it seems reasonable, and it's possible because i've personally experienced it. >> it's really interesting. >> wow, losing an entire 747 because of the noise, i hadn't considered that. i want to bring in john cox on this. captain, give me the visibility of a of a of a of a jet like the one that was landing of a regional jet. if it's, you know, what can you see out the front windows?

>> you get pretty good visibility. the, the embraer. i'm sorry. the c r j is a veteran airplane. it's been around for a long time. it has a good safety record. the visibility is good. the pilots that fly it like the airplane. so i think that the colonel made an interesting observation. but certainly if the jet crew, if the airline crew is looking down at a helicopter, they may not really be able to see it. it gets lost in a sea of lights. so there's that piece of it. and two the pilots are concentrating now on their alignment with the runway, both vertical and lateral. and so they they're cleared to land. they own the airspace between the, their position and the runway. so they're concentrating on that. the air traffic control comments to the helicopter was to avoid

the jet and recognize too, that the commercial airliner cannot hear the helicopter and the helicopter cannot hear the commercial airliner. both of them can hear the air traffic controller. but so exactly where that helicopter is. if the if the jet crew was not made aware of that helicopter, they may not have known they were there. >> yeah. >> they are on different frequencies. i'm going to bring in courtney colby at the pentagon for us, our nbc news correspondent who covers national security. courtney, can you give us any more information about what you've been able to glean from the pentagon, about what was happening in this black hawk helicopter? >> yeah. >> so, i mean, i will say, katie, the comments that we heard out of president trump and secretary hegseth this morning got a lot of attention here at the pentagon, specifically when they were talking about elevation, saying that there was some sort of an issue with the elevation, presumably, regarding the helicopter. we've been

asking about that. generally, when you're talking about a helicopter or any kind of an aircraft, you talk about altitude, not elevation. so here's what we know. at this point, this helicopter would have been able to fly at a max altitude of 200ft for the route that it was flying. this is a very standard route. it's known here in dc as route four. it goes along the potomac river. it is flown on a near daily basis, according to an aviation a military aviation expert who we spoke with and the pilots and the crew chief on this helicopter were very experienced. katie, the main, the pilot in this case was an instructor pilot with more than a 1000 hours of flight time. this person would have not only been experienced in the cockpit, would have had additional training and experience to be able. >> to. >> train and work with other pilots so that they can get more experienced and that they can become more, more increase their expertise. in addition to that, the copilot for this mission had at least 500 hours, and in this

case, because it was a training mission, the copilot was actually going through like a certification, essentially an annual certification for nighttime flying. both of the pilots and the crew chief also very experienced, according to army officials, were very familiar with these routes. they had been flying them for some time. they knew their altitude that they were supposed to be flying at, and the exact route or corridor that they were supposed to stay on. so that is what we know so far. beyond that, army officials, much like the ntsb that we just heard from, are not talking about specifics of exactly how high this aircraft was flying at the time of this collision. but we do know they were very experienced pilots. it only adds, frankly, to the mystery about how something like this could happen. extremely busy airspace that exists here. but because of that reason, these pilots, these military aircraft, they are taught how they are supposed to navigate through it.

and in this case, according to army officials, these were individuals who knew how to navigate these airways. katie. >> raising even more questions. and we're going to await those answers again. that could take some time. the ntsb says 30 days for its preliminary report, and they are the ultimate authority on what happened. they're going to be the ones telling us the facts of this case. one last question, this one to you, randy. and this is going to have to do with. politics, i guess, and presumptions. i'm not going to play the sound. we've all heard it. donald trump earlier took the opportunity, after asking for a moment of silence. the president for the victims to cast blame and claim that that die is the problem, that past presidents prioritize. that. my colleague peter alexander pointed out that the die policy that he was reading from, that he was claiming was put in place by president biden, was actually in place since 2013. it was under his administration as

well. can you help me understand how die policies, as donald trump described them, that people with severe mental challenges and the like were being hired at the faa and hired for these sensitive positions? who gets to be an air traffic controller? what do you have to go through to be an air traffic controller? to be in charge of, be in charge of our skies? >> it's a very rigorous process. it's just like an. >> airline pilot. >> they take first class physicals. >> there's a long. >> period of time. it takes more than two years to become a fully certified air traffic controller, and you would not be at national airport. >> you know, the day after you got. >> off probation. that's an airport. that's a busy airport. it has very seasoned, qualified people. and what you're testing is the skills of the people involved, not their color. not where they were born or anything else. you want the skill set

that's needed to be an air traffic controller and to. >> you know, i mean. >> president trump. >> was was. >> president at one time before for four years. i don't recall any changes made then either. but i think the focus here is, you know, really these were qualified people in the airplane, in the black hawk. in the air traffic control system, very qualified people. and i think fortunately, we have a wonderful system of the ntsb. they're going to do a very thorough investigation. they'll be assisted if needed by the faa. and they will come to the conclusion. i mean, a couple of things come into play in this area. one thing at night, you know, light at night has no depth perception. you can't tell if somebody held a flashlight from you 100 yards away. it wouldn't be any brighter than saturn. and saturn is millions of miles away, so there's just no depth. >> perception in light. >> if the ntsb finds that there

were issues with air traffic control or the number of people that were on staff, or maybe congestion. how do you how do you implement that? how do you get more people to, to apply for and to be hired at the faa? i know that there already is a hiring problem for air traffic controllers. they're short staffed. >> yeah, it's a long process. that's the problem. you don't hire somebody in two weeks later, they're a certified air traffic controller. it is literally a two year process. they train in oklahoma city. they are mentored in different environments and they work their way up. it's a very rigorous process, and i think the air traffic control system, at any given moment, at any given moment, there's 7000 airplanes flying over this country without incident, and this goes on 24 over seven and has. gone on for decades. they do a terrific job, but sometimes, you know, even the perfect system, you know, and it's always a series of

things. and i think the ntsb will get to the bottom of it. usually it's not. one thing went wrong. typically in an accident, multiple things and they collide and build up. and ultimately you have a disaster. and that's unfortunately what we had here. and i'm incredibly sympathetic to the lives of those that lost. so many of them were children. it's heartbreaking. but, you know, the ntsb and the faa working together in concert will come up with. and if they find something wrong, they'll recommend changes and we'll adopt those changes as needed. >> it's been 15 years since a major airline disaster in this country. let's hope we go much more time than that before the next one. thank you so much. former faa administrator randy babbitt. i appreciate it. lieutenant colonel darren gob, who's flown black hawk choppers in this corridor, and captain john cox, who's also flown jets into into reagan. thank you guys all for your expertise on this issue. and again, we're going to

wait for definitive answers from the ntsb. got to have some patience. still ahead, we're going to turn to capitol hill, where three of the president's most controversial cabinet nominees appeared before senate committees. they got a grilling from senators, bipartisan senators. what happened in those senators. what happened in those hearings today don't go ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. botox® effects may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as trouble swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. those with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. side effects may include allergic reactions like rash, breathing problems, dizziness, neck and injection site pain, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection. tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions like als,

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pick to be director of national intelligence, faced repeated questions over her attempts to pardon former nsa intelligence contractor edward snowden, with republicans and democrats pressing her to declare snowden once and for all, a traitor. >> this is a big deal to everybody. >> here. >> because it's a big deal to everybody that. >> she will also oversee in that role as well. >> and so it's. >> helpful for them to be able to. hear your heart on this. >> so was edward. snowden a traitor? >> senator, my heart is with my commitment to our constitution and our nation's security. i thank you, i, i have shown throughout my almost 22 years of service in the military, as well as my time in congress. how seriously i take the privilege of having access to classified information and our nation's secrets. and that's why i'm committed, if confirmed as director of national intelligence, to join you in making sure that there is no future snowden type leak.

>> was he a traitor at the time when he took america's. >> secrets, released. >> him. >> in public, and then ran to china. >> and became. >> a russian citizen? >> senator, i'm focused on the future and how we can prevent something like this from happening again. >> is edward snowden a traitor to the united states of america? that is not a. >> hard question. >> to answer when the stakes. >> are this high. >> senator. >> as someone who has served in. >> yes or no, is edward snowden. a traitor to the united states of america? >> as someone who. >> has. >> worn our uniform in combat, i understand how critical our national security. >> apparently you don't. >> across the capitol complex, kash patel was asked about whether he means the words that he has said. >> have you. >> referred to the media as the most powerful enemy. >> of the united states. >> that. >> they. have ever seen? >> is that right?

>> again, you're reading a. quote. i take it you're reading it accurately. >> two 2324. >> you said we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens who helped joe. >> biden rig the elections. >> we're going to come after you. whether it's. criminally or civilly. >> is that. >> something you said? >> that's a partial statement of what i said. >> steve bannon's podcast. >> you also said you would put the entire fake news mafia press corps. >> on your list. >> is that correct? is that what. >> you said? >> i don't have that in front of me. >> danny johnson podcast. >> eight 2123. >> you have said that. >> the fbi, including. >> today. >> you said. >> that they. remain utterly corrupt. >> this is an agency with agents. who have taken down terrorists, taken down bank robbers, taken down crime. and you. wrote that the fbi has. >> become so thoroughly. >> compromised that it will remain a. >> threat to the. >> people unless. drastic measures. >> are taken.

>> do you know that under. >> chris wray's leadership, he took over at a very difficult time? >> we all. >> know that. appointed by president. >> trump. >> that the during. his tenure. >> the. >> applications to the fbi has in. fact tripled. do you think people would be applying to. >> that. >> agency, like in those numbers, if they thought it was so corrupt? >> the american public's trust in it is at 40%. that's an all time low. >> joining us now, nbc news chief capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles. so, you know, these were aggressive questions. what's your sense of whether these nominees will first get out of committee and then will be able to be confirmed on the by the full senate? >> yeah, and i watched both of these hearings as closely. >> as. >> i possibly could, given the fact that they were both happening at the same time. and i noticed that quite a distinction between the patel hearing and the gabbard hearing in that the patel hearing, there was almost no pushback from republican senators right on down the line. they seem to be

very. >> positive about. >> him as the next. >> fbi director. >> they believe that he can fulfill donald trump's mission of. >> reforming the. >> fbi on whatever terms donald trump claims. >> them. >> to be, and they seem to. >> be perfectly. >> happy with giving him the keys to the fbi, despite his controversial statements in the past, his. >> enemies list. >> his calls for. >> political retribution, everything along. >> those lines. so it seems as though. patel is on a path to. sail to confirmation, because, of course, he can be confirmed and. >> still lose three. republican votes, even if every democrat votes against him. it was a much different. situation in the. >> gabbard hearing. they are different committees. >> but the. >> intel committee. you saw republican. >> senators really press. tulsi gabbard. >> on a wide range. >> of issues. >> yes. the edward. snowden question, what came up over and over again from republican. >> senators, but they also wanted to know. definitively what she thought about the. fisa program, the surveillance program. that allows the nation's. >> intelligence communities to spy and. >> collect evidence. >> on foreign adversaries. >> they wanted very specific questions about the meeting that

she had. with bashar. >> al assad, whether. >> or not. she believed the talking points from the kremlin, that they accused her of parroting. and these. >> were republicans. >> asking her these. >> questions. >> not just democrats. >> i want to show you. >> one example from. >> susan collins on the. edward snowden issue. >> would you support. or recommend. >> a pardon. or any kind of clemency for edward snowden? >> thank you for the question. senator collins, if confirmed as the director of national intelligence, my responsibility would be to ensure the security of our nation's secrets and would not take actions to advocate for any actions related to snowden. >> so the answer. >> is no. is that correct? >> and so there's two ways to look at this, right, katie. it could mean that republicans. >> are laying the. >> groundwork to. >> say that they're. >> willing to. >> stand. >> up to donald trump and prevent tulsi gabbard from being the next director of national intelligence, or they're trying

to give her the space to clarify some of her previous statements and previous positions on some of these issues so they can feel comfortable. voting for her. we're not exactly sure which way that's going to play itself out, but at this point, not a single republican. >> has said. >> that there are no vote on tulsi gabbard at this point. >> really quick. i'm running out of time, but i want to ask you about what happened in the rfk hearing today. his second confirmation hearing, and this one was from senator cassidy, really pressing him on on vaccines. he seemed skeptical of rfk. are you becoming more skeptical of rfk, his ability to pass and become leader of hhs? >> yeah, i still believe that he is likely to be confirmed, but i do believe that there are some cracks in that path to nomination based solely on what we saw from cassidy today, cassidy said, for the first time on the. record in a public setting. >> that he had real. >> questions about rfk jr. s nomination, which i think. >> is very significant. >> said specifically, he wanted clarity on the vaccine issue and

felt that he didn't get it. if cassidy is a no vote, that could lead to many others at this point, he hasn't said whether or not he'll vote yes or no, but he could be a leading. >> indicator of where this nomination is headed. >> because keep in mind, he needs to get out of committee first. if cassidy votes no in the committee, it will be very difficult for rfk jr to get his vote all the way to the floor. >> all right, ryan nobles, thank you very much. donald trump is signing a couple of executive orders right now. we'll show you some video. the first one is the second presidential memorandum directing the faa to assess damage from dea policies and to ensure competing in hiring. he says he's going to visit with some of the families of the crash. he also is signing an executive order to appoint an acting commissioner for the faa. the commissioner for the faa resigned when donald trump took office. >> okay. >> elon musk was was was not a fan of his. i don't know if those two things are related, but that that happened. there was no acting commissioner of the faa when this crash happened. now donald trump says there is one. joining us now,

democratic democratic congressman from connecticut, jim himes. let's talk about these these folks that are in confirmation positions right now. i want to start on tulsi gabbard. there is some skepticism about her. is tulsi gabbard a threat to national security if she becomes. if she's if she's confirmed? >> well, katie. >> i. >> mean, i can tell you. >> two things. one. expertise matters. we forgot that, right? >> until 18 hours ago. >> an. >> airplane crashed into. >> a helicopter. and so. >> all of this. >> stuff like, oh. it doesn't. >> matter who's running. >> these agencies. i think today we understand. >> that it. does matter who's running the faa. >> and by extension. >> it matters who's. >> running the intelligence community and who's running the fbi. >> i don't. >> know if tulsi gabbard. >> is a threat to national. >> security, but. >> i do know. >> that. she is completely. >> unqualified for. >> the. >> role. >> never having had any experience inside the. >> intelligence community. >> and i. >> also know something else about her and. >> about. >> kash. >> which is now. >> that. they've been. >> offered a. glittery new. >> job, they are.

>> running away, cluttered, muddying the water. >> and outright. >> denying what. >> they used to say. >> and the. problem with tulsi doing that. >> is that. >> if you're an. >> intelligence leader. >> you need to. >> be. >> willing to march. >> into the president of the united states. >> and tell. >> him something he. >> doesn't want to hear. >> and tulsi on. >> snowden, on fisa, on. >> any number of. >> topics, has. >> completely flipped. >> on where she used to be in order. >> to. get this job. >> so the. question is. >> will there be. >> any core there. >> to risk keeping her job. in order to tell the president. >> the truth? >> and i don't think there's any. >> evidence at all. >> that she's got. >> that strength of character. >> or that consistency. >> to do that. >> critical thing. >> why would she just not say i was wrong? i think edward snowden is a threat to national security and what he did was wrong, and that i believe he's a traitor, as so many republican senators wanted to hear from her today. >> yeah, yeah. >> you know, you played. >> the. >> film of. >> of tulsi. >> refusing to. >> say that he.

>> was a traitor. okay. >> maybe that. >> is. >> you know. maybe she. >> hasn't 100%. >> abandoned her position when she thought that snowden should be pardoned. >> and so i guess. >> that's something. but. >> you know. >> he is. >> a traitor, right? >> i mean. >> our. >> country was. >> made. dramatically less. >> secure for the quirky actions. of a. disgruntled employee. >> look, i sit on the. >> intelligence committee. >> as you know, there are any. number of avenues that if for whistleblowers, if you. >> think that. something is being done. >> illegally or wrong, you. >> can come to. >> me, by the way. >> you can come to the intelligence committee. >> edward snowden did none of those things. >> and so by. >> that standard. >> and. >> the. >> fact that he went. >> to china. >> and then russia. >> look, the. >> question should not have. >> been hard. >> for her to answer. >> what about kash patel? i know you touched on him for a moment. he's getting a much more welcome reception from republicans. from your understanding of kash patel and who he is. do you believe that he's going to go after

perceived political enemies? he's going to go after prosecutors at the doj who investigated donald trump go after you know what? i'm almost out of time. so you're going to have to give me this answer in 20s. >> probably for. >> eight years. i you. >> know, he. >> worked. >> as a staffer on. >> the intelligence committee. kash patel is one thing. >> he is. >> a partizan attack dog. >> and by the way. >> you know, all you had to do. is watch. two minutes of the. >> hearing to see that. >> that is the case. so, you know, america and. >> senators need to ask themselves the question, what are. the implications of having a partizan attack dog atop an agency which. >> unlike the intelligence. >> community, can. >> knock on your door with. >> guns drawn? >> do you want. >> a partizan. attack dog in. >> that role? >> congressman jim himes, thank you so much for adhering to my very short time limit. i appreciate it, sir. thank you. >> thank you katie. >> and that's going to do it for me today. deadline. white house starts right now. >> hi there