he's going to go after prosecutors at the doj who investigated donald trump go after you know what? i'm almost out of time. so you're going to have to give me this answer in 20s. >> probably for. >> eight years. i you. >> know, he. >> worked. >> as a staffer on. >> the intelligence committee. kash patel is one thing. >> he is. >> a partizan attack dog. >> and by the way. >> you know, all you had to do. is watch. two minutes of the. >> hearing to see that. >> that is the case. so, you know, america and. >> senators need to ask themselves the question, what are. the implications of having a partizan attack dog atop an agency which. >> unlike the intelligence. >> community, can. >> knock on your door with. >> guns drawn? >> do you want. >> a partizan. attack dog in. >> that role? >> congressman jim himes, thank you so much for adhering to my very short time limit. i appreciate it, sir. thank you. >> thank you katie. >> and that's going to do it for me today. deadline. white house starts right now. >> hi there everyone. it's 4:00

in new york. an hour and a half from sunset. in our nation's capital, where recovery crews are still. >> scouring the potomac. >> river following. >> that deadly. >> collision between a passenger plane and an army helicopter near. ronald reagan airport. >> last night. >> earlier today, officials confirmed what many have feared that none of the. >> 64 people aboard the plane. >> nor any of the three people aboard the helicopter, survived. so while. teams work through the wreckage. >> the rest of. >> us are. >> left. >> to go about three. important undertakings. >> as laid out and articulated by virginia senator tim kaine earlier today. >> those three. >> things are sorrow. >> thanks and questions. >> sorrow for. >> the victims and their loved ones. >> who have lost absolutely. >> everything in an instant. thanks and. >> gratitude for rescue and recovery crews who have worked tirelessly. >> in frigid waters and conditions, and questions for investigators. >> about how this could have happened in the first place, so that we can. >> make sure it doesn't happen

again, because the cause of this. tragedy and what led up to. >> it are still, as far as. >> we know, unknown. >> and yet. and yet. from the. >> most powerful. >> podium in the. >> world. >> the white house briefing room. earlier today. >> donald trump, the new president. >> citing zero. evidence or facts. >> placed blame. squarely at the feet. >> of previous. >> presidential administrations and programs having. >> to do with diversity, equity. >> and inclusion. >> dei. >> watch. i changed the obama standards from very mediocre at best to extraordinary. i put safety first. obama, biden and the democrats put policy first, and they put politics at a level that nobody's ever seen. they put a big push to put diversity into the faa's program. they actually came out with a directive to white. and we want

the people that are competent. >> how you can come. >> to the conclusion. >> right. >> now that. diversity had something. >> to do. >> with this. >> crash. >> because i have common sense, okay. and unfortunately, a lot of people don't. >> we'll let our viewers decide who's. >> turning to. >> politics today. again, those comments were made without providing any. evidence for them. and in the midst. of a horrific tragedy, the worst aviation disaster in decades and an ongoing search for answers. that answer from donald trump, standing. >> in stark contrast. >> to the responses from responses from investigators. >> who fielded. >> questions about the collision today. >> we do not know enough facts to be able to rule in or out human factor, mechanical factors. that is part of the ntsb investigative process and where all of these groups will come together. it's one of the reasons why the ntsb is known as the gold standard. we will take the time that's necessary.

>> you need to give us time. you need to give ntsb. it's not that we don't have information. we do have information. we have data. we have substantial amounts of information we need to verify information. we need to take our time to make sure it is accurate. that's best for you. that's important for the families. it's important for legislators who are seeking answers to try to figure out what they're going to do about this. and so it will take time. we do have a lot of information, but we need some time to verify that. >> that's where we start. >> today with nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin. >> out in arlington, virginia. >> erin. >> i've been watching you all day. >> it is. >> obviously an ongoing. >> investigation. >> an obvious tragedy, but it's also the place where. >> 64 families. >> lost the. most important people. >> to them. >> and for. >> those families. whose worlds and lives will never be the

same. >> tell me what the last. >> 16 hours have been like. >> well, as you can imagine, nicole, it's been an absolute nightmare for the victims families, friends, their loved ones. we now understand that at least 14 members of the figure skating community were on board that passenger jet, including promising young teenage figure skaters including. spencer lane and gina hahn. spencer lane had just posted yesterday to his instagram account, just proudly demonstrating his moves on the ice rink and then hours later, posted a photo from inside that doomed jet prior to takeoff. and it's that juxtaposition, that reality that is so jarring, not just for the victims families, but for really everyone across the country, which, as we heard

from the ntsb, why it's so important that they get this investigation right, that they establish facts, that they come up with conclusions. a probable cause for this crash so that it will never happen again. nicole. >> let me stay with your reporting. >> on the victims. >> this is some. >> sound from. local nbc news. about a skating coach. >> about who. >> some. >> of these kids were. >> there's a lot of kids from ashburn, and they're. i mean, most of them are under 12 years old. there's three boys that i know that just like my male skater dealing with that, it's just it's hard enough seeing that. >> and then. >> the two girls from northern virginia skating club in fairfax, what kills me is these kids. >> because i. >> work with. >> kids all. >> day long. >> it's just. >> one of those things where you. >> don't want to see anyone go through this. >> erin, let me show you one more piece of. sound from the.

club manager. about where they might. >> have been or where they were traveling. >> back from. >> anyone that was skating in the national development program this past week in wichita are exemplary skaters. they've been working. >> hard at their. >> skill, hard at their craft, and they're the best of the best. >> so yeah. >> it they're young. >> they're they're. >> all young. and the skating industry. >> and they all. have big goals. it's hard. >> it's hard to. >> see my staff struggle. it's hard. >> to see the. >> other coaches. struggling at this point. >> of. >> the day. today, that. >> ice is normally. >> bustling with skaters, and there's no one here today. >> erin, again, the families. >> impacted by. >> the lives lost. >> the communities, the larger skating community. >> and we're. >> just learning about. the other.

>> victims. >> how how. >> much are they aware. >> of some of the things. that donald trump said from the. >> podium. >> placing the blame. at his predecessors, the obama administration. >> specifically. >> blaming die? >> well, you know, nicole, it's unclear if the families, the friends of the victims have been listening to what politicians the president has been saying about this crash. in particular. you have to imagine that they are absolutely consumed with sorrow and grief. also, trying to learn more information about their loved ones from officials. we know that so far they've only recovered around 28 bodies from the waters of the potomac. we know that they have set up a center not far from here in bethesda for the families, for the friends to gather, to get more and more information. and i can tell you, having covered a number of plane crashes in the

past, this is a shock. this is a trauma that is jarring. that is excruciating, that is impossible to describe. so you have to you have to imagine that in these early moments, as they're processing that their loved ones were on board the fated flight, that they are still learning, working to understand, to comprehend just the scale of this tragedy. nicole. >> and i guess just to remind our. >> viewers they are still. >> recovering these victims, they have not recovered. >> the black box. >> let me. >> play one more piece of sound. >> these are the things. >> that have. >> stopped me in. >> my tracks today. >> this is. >> the owner of the skating. club of boston. >> so max was competing at the us championships in the senior men's event championship men. he placed fourth. both of his parents were with him while he was competing. it's well known. mom was always too nervous to. >> watch him. >> skate, but. >> his. >> dad was with him and dad was in the kiss and cry, sharing his

great performance. >> that's what this is. >> about today. >> people whose. >> lives changed forever. erin mclaughlin. >> thank you for your reporting. please wave a. hand and come back. >> as you learn anything new. >> joining our. >> conversation is. >> nbc news. >> white house. >> correspondent vaughn hillyard. >> also joining. >> us, former. >> director of the faa office of accident investigation, stephen wallace. >> and joining me at the table is investigation. and risk management. analyst anthony roman. he's an faa. >> licensed commercial pilot. >> and former. >> flight instructor. let me start with you. you have an eerily similar experience. >> that didn't end in tragedy, but just tell us about that. >> yeah. >> about 20, 25 years ago, i was on an instrument approach in low cloud weather. to dca. and when i broke out of the clouds, at minimum, i military helicopter passed directly under my

aircraft and very, very close it. it is an alarming situation. i'm fortunate there wasn't a collision. and my heart goes out to all those who have lost family and friends in this accident. >> just to. >> make sure i'm understanding. >> apples to apples. do you. see a weather. >> component to. what happened last night? >> no, i don't, i, i believe that the weather was exceptionally clear. long visibility. however, it was a very dark night and all of the lighting systems, as the aircraft is approaching runway one, it was then required to change direction. dog leg a right hand turn to runway 33 at low altitude, then straighten out on a heading of approximately 330 the runway

heading to land there. so for both pilots, they were very, very busy and focusing on that landing. their airspeed, their altitude, and whether or not there was any traffic on the runway. so very little time to look around at other aircraft. when you have seconds to landing. >> we focus on what. >> we're learning. >> and what. >> we know. >> and the. >> folks we've been able to talk to. about the victims. what does it do. >> to the. >> industry, to pilots like yourself? what is the. >> trauma like. >> to see something like this? >> well, all pilots are saddened by this type of event, and particularly when there's a loss of so many passengers and military crew members. but we are all professionals, and our focus when we enter the cockpit is discipline, procedure and remaining at a skilled level to fly safely and to ensure that

individuals on the ground and the passengers on the aircraft are properly delivered to their destination safely and soundly. >> you mentioned a. >> change in runways. i mean. >> what are the possible scenarios for what could have gone wrong? what is. the investigation? what are the investigators. >> asking in. >> terms of questions? >> well, the question is whether a mechanical failure between any of the two aircraft that led to their position changing somewhat and leading to the collision more likely, a shortage of air traffic controllers since the pandemic. and as a result, they are driven very, very hard during these episodes. normally they would be two controllers in an incident like this, one for the military helicopter and one for the civilian aircraft. in this case, there was only one

controller managing both, and the lighting system on the ground can make it difficult at that low altitude to see conflicting traffic. >> i want to understand von hilliard. >> if there's. >> information that donald. >> trump has. >> shared with journalists on. >> background or. >> otherwise, that led him to be able to conclude that this. >> was. >> a result of politics. >> and. >> die programs. >> from his predecessors. >> zero evidence that has been presented. and he himself. >> i think we need. >> to be very, very. >> clear, said. >> himself there from the white house today. >> that he. >> didn't know. >> himself whether this had anything to do with the so-called die hiring initiatives. this from the president today, just one week after his inauguration, hours after more than 60 people were killed just five miles from the white house, he equated the tragedy in place blame on nonwhite, non-disabled people.

he suggested that a former department of transportation secretary was bs. he alluded to an faa group inside the faa that he was referring to that said that the faa was too white. >> in his. >> own words. he then made reference to people with disabilities. he made a reference to dwarfism, hiring practices. >> of. >> inclusivity that for more than a decade. >> now. >> the faa, including during his own first administration, sought to expand the reach of individuals that they brought into the faa. and let's be clear, if we may, when we're talking about the faa, there's been a chronic understaffing of air traffic controllers. and yet, what we heard from the president today was not an acknowledgment about some basic issues that have been acknowledged here up on capitol hill and from previous administrations before. but instead, he blamed dei policies

and hiring practices when still hours later, he has presented no evidence and no specifics that would corroborate any suggestion that somehow any of the individuals that were involved in this crash or were air traffic controllers, were somehow inappropriately hired or or had inadequate experience or reason to be in the positions that they were, including three members of the military. >> and just. >> remind me, trump's inaugurated on which date. >> it was january 20th. >> so our timeline of trump's aviation actions as the president of the united states goes like this. on january 20th, the faa director. leaves the office under pressure. on january 21st, the air traffic controller. hiring is frozen so. no more can be hired. and on january 22nd, the aviation safety advisory committee is disbanded. does the. >> white. house have. >> any comment about any of those actions? >> no. we're still waiting for at this point in time, and i think it's important to note

that the pool camera actually just went into the oval office as the president was signing another executive order, just literally in the last 15 minutes. and he was asked about those comments to clarify, again, his idea. the di was responsible in part for the tragedy. and he said said, well, it could be again not being definitive with it, but again, not pulling back, understanding the heartache that people are going through here. and again, him or the white house not providing any specifics that would suggest otherwise. >> there is. >> a musk. >> thread that i. >> must pull with you. >> von hilliard. >> based on reporting from reuters. i'll read you that reporting. >> quote. >> federal aviation administration. >> chief mike whitaker. >> will step down when. president elect donald trump takes office next month. >> this is from december. >> spacex ceo elon musk, a close. >> advisor to donald trump. >> in september. >> called for. whitaker's resignation. >> and harshly criticized. >> the faa's decision to impose a $633,000. >> fine on. >> spacex after. >> the. agency said. >> the company violated.

>> launch license requirements. >> elon musk is the richest person in the world, i believe, and he had this person fired because of a $633,000 fine on spacex. do elon musk or spacex have. >> any public comments today on that? >> not that i have seen at this point in time here. i've been tracking that as well here. and on the point of elon musk, though, could i add this though, nicole, to that? i think when we're talking about individuals and allies of donald trump, i think that so many of the stories that we are looking at, including this one, come down to who is that that that nucleus around donald trump and one other name that i would throw out there would be charlie kirk. and the reason i bring up charlie kirk is because one year ago, i, along with a few other nbc colleagues, reported a story in which charlie kirk, the right wing provocateur and ally of donald trump, he had put out in the public sphere on a podcast that he was concerned when he got on airplanes, when he saw a black pilot, because he questioned whether they were

hired because of dei hiring initiatives and not because they were qualified. and at that time, there were some allies of donald trump's, including rnc chairwoman ronna mcdaniel, who went directly to then candidate donald trump with that specific remark. and they wanted to make sure that donald trump heard that because they thought that he would not want charlie kirk around him because of that suggestion that somehow black camp pilots were not qualified to be flying in america. and instead, one year later, when i heard those remarks from the white house, it took me back to that story one year ago, because instead of donald trump pushing charlie kirk away, he fundamentally embraced that very ideology, that of questioning the aviation industry and the extent to which individuals are in it, whether they be pilots or air traffic controllers or even members of the military. because of dei hiring initiatives. >> how often does. >> charlie kirk fly? >> do you know. >> does he have a job that requires a lot of. >> plane travel?

>> he travels through his turning point organization that is a conservative activist organization. >> i mean, he'd have to. >> fly an awful lot. >> because according. >> to the faa, 94% of all pilots in america are white. do we know if he had a bad experience or a bumpy. >> flight, or. >> was it just simply rooted. >> in racism? >> i don't have an answer to that question, other than he said that when he got on a plane and he saw a black pilot, he said that he questioned for his safety and whether that individual was hired for dei practices. >> i mean, you'd have to. >> take a whole lot of planes to even see a black pilot. based on these statistics. i want to read you pete buttigieg's response. >> vaughn hillyard. >> he wrote this about trump's comments. despicable. as families grieve, trump should. >> be leading, not lying. >> we put safety. >> first, drove. >> down close calls, grew. >> air traffic. >> control and had. >> zero commercial airline. >> crash fatalities out of millions of flights. on our watch, president trump now oversees. >> the military. >> and the faa. one of his first acts was to fire and suspend. >> some of the key personnel.

>> who helped keep. >> our skies safe. >> time for the president. >> to show actual leadership. and explain what he. >> will do to prevent this from happening again. is there a sense that there is some culpability from the white house? is that why they went out and attacked dei and the obama and biden administrations? >> and we should be clear, too, that sean duffy, who is his new department of transportation secretary, was right alongside of him earlier today, as well as pete hegseth, his new dod secretary. and they were echoing directly the words of donald trump here. and, of course, they are only ten days into their administration. but i think that this is where it gets at the heart of honestly, donald trump placing blame on this practice. that was very clear implemented during his own administration the first go around. and we're finding from our longtime producer, jay blackman, who is reporting in just the last two minutes, that the last night at dca, that a source with knowledge of the situation tells nbc the staffing inside of that traffic controller was, quote,

not normal. and the reason i bring that up is that's not to say that there are not legitimate concerns about what happened last night. 67 people lost their lives. and we know that there is a chronic issue of air traffic controllers and their ability and the staffing levels. and yet what donald trump focused on were not the institutional questions that, of course, have long plagued the faa, but instead instead placed blame on individuals who were, frankly, who he claimed to be perhaps not qualified to be in these positions in the first place. >> it is. >> tragic that the first work after honoring the victims and what we're learning about their stories is to do the fact checking. we did have to deal with that first. when we come back, we will get to the. >> facts of the. >> actual investigation. >> the stephen wallace, a. >> former faa investigator. >> everyone sticks around. also later. >> in the broadcast. >> we'll turn to politics. >> donald trump's. >> loyalists tapped to run some of the most important life.

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postings. >> get your own paychex recruiting copilot now at paychex.com/tv. >> the first 100 days. it's a critical time for our country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time. so we're going to do it. settle in. >> the rachel maddow show weeknights at 9:00 on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. >> a lot of people. >> have worked very hard over this. >> last 120. >> years to always learn. >> from aviation accidents. >> and incidents and continually make things better. we have an obligation. >> to do that. and it's this. constant learning, this. >> constant improvement. >> never, never saying. >> it's good enough.

>> in aviation safety. >> you can. >> never say. >> it's just good enough. it always. >> has to be the very. >> best that we can make it. every part of it. >> we every. >> time we get on. >> an airplane, there are thousands of people behind. >> the scenes that. >> we don't. >> know and. >> don't know. about who are. >> doing important things. >> that in many. >> ways keep. >> us safe on every flight. >> that was. captain sully sullenberger. >> i want to pull into our conversation. steven wallace, former director of. the faa office of accident investigation board. and anthony are still here. so, steven. >> tell me what's actually happening. >> so this is we're in the early stages of an investigation where. the professionals will, as you're will not get involved. in speculation. i think i'd like to start out with something. just note. that the last time a us airliner was in a mid-air collision. was in september. of 1978. and our our commercial

airlines operate. and depending on how you count them, 28,000 or some people say 45,000. >> i think if. >> they add in the corporate jets or, or something, but every every day, say around 30,000. flights every day, the. last time a us flag air carrier. >> was in an. >> accident, a mid-air collision was 1978. so of course, every time i've said that over years, i've. known that a mid-air collision could occur. the next day, and a mid-air collision occurred last night. and i will say i worked closely. i was the head of accident investigation for the faa, but i worked very closely. the ntsb owns the investigation and they have and they invited they have a party system. so they invite in the airlines, the pilots union, air traffic. controllers union, anybody with an interest and

competence to assist the investigation. so it's an open party system very much out in the sunshine. and the ntsb is not fast, but the ntsb is thorough and they will go through every bit of evidence. >> and. >> i'm completely confident here, particularly you have. >> a modern. >> jet airliner with good cockpit voice recorders and data recorders. you have radar data, you have voice data, you have eyewitnesses. so they and they have all the wreckage there. so i'm highly confident that. >> the. >> investigation will come to a precise and correct solution. i'm not going to speculate as. to how quickly that will happen. the ntsb takes as. >> much time as. >> it needs.

>> is it possible. >> to know why it happened? i mean, is it possible that someone knows why this crash happened? and i guess what i'm trying to get at is for any. >> politician to. >> declare that the answer. >> is. >> is x in trump's case, die? is it possible to know what. >> caused a mid-air collision if we. >> haven't had one. since 1978 at. >> whatever this is? >> i think our. >> 16 after the collision. >> well. it i guess my answer to your question is it is it is highly irresponsible to speculate and some some aircraft accidents. the investigators have it in the back of their mind, certain areas to focus on. and in some accidents it's fairly apparent right away. and in other accidents. the ultimate. finding comes out as something of a surprise. you

know, this accident involves. i sort of, i guess we could say, just a failure of the see and avoid system of visual separation to work. >> and so. >> in that, in that sense, it's very simplistic. i would be very surprised if we find that anything mechanical was wrong with either of these aircraft. the ntsb will certainly look into that. i would also. >> note here, anthony roman. >> spoke a little bit about the approach that this approach is basically flown up the river from the south, and then it does a little zigzag, and runway one is straight north, and this was. >> landing on runway. >> three three. so it makes it a little jog over to the right. and then it lines up with the runway. and from what i could see of the noted impact point that you're showing there now, that's quite close to the end of

runway three three and an airliner on approach to a runway like that typically is descending about 300ft, about three degrees. so about 300ft per mile. so that looks to me, if that runway three three is just about exactly a. >> mile long. >> and so it's probably a half an inch half a mile from the from the touchdown zone. so it was quite so that means it would be probably in under under 200ft. one thing i. >> would note. >> here is that the airliner has a collision avoidance system. tcas. but the tcas, which gives resolution advisories at altitude, just like if two pilots or two airplanes are pointing at each other at altitude, the systems will coordinate the evasive maneuver and tell one airplane to fly up and one to fly down. and that. >> function is. >> inhibited close into the

airport, because there's so much traffic that you would start to get a lot of false warnings, and there's a risk involved in airlines. doing airliners. doing evasive maneuvers very, very close to the ground. so that that tcas system. >> would have. >> been inhibited, but it would still provide the traffic advisory. and so it would advise where the other traffic is and the military aircraft. i'm not sure what equipment it would have, but it would certainly have the transponder and everything. and it would probably not have the tcas system. but again, that's inhibited close. >> to the. >> ground. >> anthony. it's amazing to have this data point from steven that it. >> has been since. >> 1978 that the country has witnessed a mid-air collision. if you work backward from wyatt. >> it doesn't happen anymore. >> does that does that narrow the possibilities for why it did

happen. >> last night? >> it does narrow the possibilities. however. this is an exceptionally busy airport in a very small space, and then you're dealing with military cross traffic in the landing pattern as well. so that raises the risk somewhat. not very much, because it's been a very successful program. but as we can see, errors do happen. >> we are so grateful. >> to both of you. one for putting up with our uninformed lines of questioning, in the case of myself, and for making us smarter. and more patient, i guess until the investigation plays out. but hilliard, i'm always grateful. >> to you for your reporting. thank you. >> for starting. >> us off. steven wallace, thank. you for making sense of. >> it all. >> and starting. >> us off on this very. sad day. >> after the break. >> for us. >> we'll turn. >> to capitol hill, where. >> donald trump's nominee. >> to lead. >> the fbi. >> was not. >> just haunted. >> by some of. his past

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never be able to command. >> the respect necessary to run. >> the day to. day operations of the bureau. that's for the deputy position. former cia. director gina haspel was. >> reported threatening to resign. >> rather than have this nominee. serve under her. john bolton, trump's former national. security advisor. >> said i. >> didn't think he was qualified. i was forced to hire him. trump's deputy national security advisor, the nominee's former. >> supervisor. >> said his ideas are ludicrous. he's absolutely unqualified for this job. he's untrustworthy, and it's an absolute disgrace to even consider an individual of this nature. >> those were republicans. >> i couldn't write that down fast enough. republicans who. >> worked for donald.

>> trump, who called kash patel, quote. >> ludicrous. >> untrustworthy and unqualified. it's more than that. >> kash patel's nomination is something that. >> democrats suggested. >> could also be dangerous. >> will you commit. >> that you will not. >> tolerate the firing of the fbi agents who worked with the special. >> counsel's office. >> on these investigations? >> senator, i appreciate the time to visit with you. >> it is. >> a yes or no. >> answer. >> and it is your first test. >> senator. every fbi employee will be held to the absolute same standard, and no one will be terminated for cases. >> i'm not going to accept. >> that answer. >> that was your first test. >> you failed it. do you agree that you have. already prepared. plans to remove. certain individuals. from their offices, for example, individuals that will. >> be replaced. >> by political personnel?

>> great sir. you stated your question. would you. >> answer or. >> don't you want to? okay. >> we can move on. >> oh. >> didn't want to. >> answer that one. democrats are arguing that the threat posed by kash. >> patel's nomination is bigger than whether or not he. exacts revenge on donald trump's enemies or shuts down fbi headquarters. >> if you. look at. >> history, you. >> see the danger of security chiefs in authoritarian. regimes becoming the tools of political power, the characteristics that. >> they often. >> show are. >> that they are. >> vengeful. >> that they are grandiose. that they are intemperate. that they are partizan and blindly loyal, and that they. >> are servile.

>> and won't say, no. >> i'm afraid. >> that the history. >> of this nominee's conduct raises those warnings. >> joining me at. >> the table, former federal. >> prosecutor and msnbc legal. analyst christie. >> greenberg is back. plus, former top official. >> at the department of. justice and an msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissman is here. also joining. >> us, former. assistant director. >> for counterintelligence. >> at the fbi, msnbc senior. >> national security analyst frank. >> figliuzzi is here. frank, i start with you. your thoughts. >> on. >> what you. >> saw today. >> nicole, look, if you or i applied to be an auto mechanic in the fbi headquarters garage and had the same baggage issues and accusations that patel possesses, we would be disqualified during the fbi background investigation,

particularly the areas of trustworthiness. if you can't trust the fbi director, you can't trust the fbi. and if we're going to change public perceptions that where the public's been misled to distrust the fbi, this is not the man to do that. i cite three examples. first, a hostage negotiation, very sensitive to get two american hostages out of yemen. patel is accused of leaking that negotiation to the wall street journal that violated every protocol on not disclosing prematurely hostage negotiations. number two, there was a seal team operation to bring an american out of nigeria that was being held captive. and patel is accused of lying about the fact that state department

had gotten nigerian permission to fly over their country. that had not happened, and patel is alleged to have lied. number three, he insisted on receiving immunization before he would actually testify to a grand jury about the mar-a-lago documents case. if an fbi director. needs criminal immunity before he can speak to a prosecutor or an fbi agent or a grand jury, i don't know how he's going to run the place. that's how i feel about what happened today. >> i mean, andrew weissmann, actually, let me show you more. this is this is a moment with adam. >> schiff. >> and the capitol police officers. >> i want you to turn around. there are capitol. police officers behind you. they're guarding us. take a look at them right now. turn around. >> i'm looking at you. you're talking to me?

>> no, no. look at them. i want you to look at them if you can. if you have the courage to look them in the eye, mr. patel, and tell them you're proud of what you did. tell them you're proud that you raised money. off of people that that assaulted their colleagues, that pepper sprayed them, that beat them with polls. tell them you're proud of what you did, mr. patel. they're right there. they're guarding you today. tell them how proud you are. >> andrew weissmann, i understand why kash patel wants to be the fbi director, and i think i understand why trump. >> wants him there. >> what i don't. >> understand is why the republicans. >> are so excited about someone who bill barr, mark esper, john bolton, bolton's deputies, the people who worked. >> with him in the past. >> in service. >> of trump's republican. >> agenda. think he's a no go zone. why not pick. >> somebody else who is just as committed to maga. >> when your own. >> people are the ones calling.

>> from deep inside. maga world saying this guy is bad news? >> well. >> you. >> could ask that question with. >> respect to a. >> host of nominees where, as we've talked about, there's just no question that we're not talking about, and nobody is saying this is the best person for the job. noticeably absent from any defense of kash patel or any of these, these nominees, they're sort of critical ones. is this idea that this is the best person for the job? there's just no way that you could that could pass the laugh test in terms of why that's going on. and i think the issue is really republicans who are not willing to stand up to say, you know what? this is a bridge too far with matt gaetz. that was a bridge too far, i think, because people knew him in congress and knew what he was about and understood just sort of how

reviled he is. and so that didn't go forward. but the bar is so low that we're seeing people who are both just simply not qualified. and remember, there are over 30,000 employees. one of the key issues is kash patel has, just as a basic level, you know, bottom line, he has no management experience. so that sort of, you know, number one, he has never run anything that is remotely close to this. he's not been as sort of a manager, but as frank pointed out, there are just so many things that disqualify him, including the clip that you just played. you know, he has said that the january 6th defendants are political prisoners. and what he said today is, well, i didn't know what they all were charged with, and i wasn't really referring to all of them. i mean, this is going to be the head of the fbi. i wasn't when i said that when i was raising money, i wasn't aware of who it

was that i was talking about as political prisoners. does he think enrique tarrio and stewart rhodes were political prisoners? the people who beat officers, who led groups of violent groups, that is. that is why adam schiff did what he did in that clip to sort of point that out. but your your big picture is we understand who this nominee is. we understand what trump wants, which is loyalty. loyalty. and what we're seeing is a complete abdication in congress of the, you know, of any sort of backbone and willingness to check even sort of these nominees. so we are really sinking to a new low. and for people like frank and me who worked at the fbi, you know, it is it is really heartbreaking, not from a political matter, just from a sort of like what the fbi deserves. >> yeah. >> i've actually heard that myself, that it's the.

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that the united states has ever seen. and no, it's not washington, dc, it's the mainstream media. >> you said we're. >> going to come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens who helped joe. >> biden rig the elections. >> we're going to come after you. whether it's criminally. >> or civilly. is that something. >> you said? >> that's a partial statement of what i said. we will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government but in the media. yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens who helped joe biden rig presidential elections. we're going to come after you, whether it's criminal or civil, we'll figure that out. but yeah, we're putting you all on notice. >> you also. >> said you would put. >> the entire fake news mafia. >> press corps on your list. >> is that correct? is that what. >> you said? >> i don't have that in front of me. it sounds cool in, you know, in the fake news mafia, we have to hunt down the people in the fake news media who made the deep state a reality. >> christine, kash patel is going to hunt down the media. rfk is putting live birds in the

blender. described as a predator by his cousin caroline, kristi noem shot her frisky puppy in the face. these are people in charge of law. enforcement functions in the government. what is the disconnect in republicans. >> being all in here? >> they're just cowards. >> i mean, you have a. >> political party. >> that is. not a political party. >> it's a cult. >> and it's a cult of personality. >> of one. >> man, donald trump. >> he selected these individuals. i think if you. >> had asked. >> many of these members of congress, these would not. >> be their choices for. >> these very. >> important positions. >> but because. >> donald trump. >> selected them and they're cowards. >> and they're afraid. for their own. >> positions. and to make sure that they don't infuriate. >> donald trump. they go along. >> i mean, watching this hearing today, watching kash patel, it was. >> like watching somebody. cosplay as. >> as a. >> legitimate nominee. >> for an. >> fbi. >> and fbi director. >> and then when you see. >> the. >> other clips of.

>> the things that he. >> said. >> you know, it's just they're two different people who we saw. >> today in a suit saying that he backs, you know. >> the fbi. and that. >> he's somebody who. >> wouldn't weaponize. >> government when we know. >> he has made. >> statement after. >> statement about. >> going after the media, going after political enemies. >> there is a list. >> like, you know, you. >> can't back away from the things. >> that. >> you've said. >> and this idea that we're just. trying to whitewash his whole history, the whole thing. >> just. >> felt like such a farce to me. >> well. we're not whitewashing it. i guess what i don't understand is there. >> are. >> people like john cornyn who understand why the fbi matters. i accept that elections have consequences. trump can put whoever he wants. but the idea of republicans like john. cornyn or john thune. or people who understand what the fbi is, who understand that under chris wray, who was. >> chris christie's defense lawyer, who. >> then became donald trump's hand-picked fbi director. >> it was a. >> rule of law agency bill barr. you couldn't get between bill barr and a camera. >> when he was. >> talking about how screwed donald trump was in mar-a-lago.

what has happened, i guess? is it trump winning? i mean, what has happened that these people don't think the fbi should function as a as a law. enforcement agency respected around. >> the world? >> i thought it was. >> really interesting. when there were questions. >> posed to kash patel about. >> if donald trump were to issue an order to investigate. >> chris wray. >> to. >> investigate bill barr. >> again, these. >> were people that were appointed by. >> donald trump. >> these are people that the republicans revere. >> whether or not. >> you know, kash. >> patel would. >> obey that order. he refused. >> to say, you know, he. >> refused to say. >> no. >> of course. >> we won't investigate. >> those people. >> i mean, that should. >> have been a pretty simple question. >> like, these aren't. >> gotcha questions. >> you know, will you. >> will you not. >> investigate people. >> that that. >> again. >> there. >> seems to be bipartisan. >> agreement have done nothing wrong. >> and he. >> wouldn't say it. >> so that. >> kind of tells. >> you everything. >> the fact that that's. >> not ringing. >> the alarm bells for. >> republicans is a really

testament to, i think, the sad. >> state of our politics. >> frank figliuzzi. >> is that. >> ringing. >> alarm bells inside the fbi? >> literally as we speak, there are very senior people in senior positions in the fbi headquarters building who are being told to either resign or retire or accept a demotion. there are also field commanders that are affiliated with the mar-a-lago case or other trump related cases, who are being encouraged to do the same. so we're already seeing this play out, and i have to wonder if these republican senators, who seem to all be on board for patel, are going to regret their decision when they one day get sideways with the president and the president's six kash patel and the fbi on them, they are going to regret their decision, because that's the kind of man that kash patel is. the other thing that worries me greatly right now is mission creep at

the fbi as we speak. there are fbi agents on the streets with ice and border patrol, and they're doing things that aren't anywhere near the fbi mission. and the problem with that is there are certain authorities that border patrol and ice have that the fbi simply does not have. there are certain warrantless authorities that govern their work. and so already today, we're getting the fbi involved in things that are dangerous for them as an organization. and what's not getting done when they're out on the street rounding up migrants. that's where we are. >> kristy greenberg, andrew weissman. >> frank figliuzzi, thank you for spending time with us on this. we'll stay on this story coming up in the next hour. >> of deadline. >> white house, the aftermath of the worst aviation disaster. >> in 15 years. >> we have some brand. >> new. >> reporting on the. >> victims of the crash. >> in the potomac. >> stay with us. >> you'll be back. emus can't help people customize and save

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>> it's 5:00 now in new york, as the sun. >> prepares to set. >> over the potomac in washington. >> recovery crews are collecting what. >> remains of a passenger. jet and an army. >> helicopter after. >> they collided in mid-air near reagan national. airport last night. >> the white. house confirmed the scope of the tragedy. earlier that. >> between the. >> 60 passengers and. >> four crew. >> members aboard. >> that american. >> eagle flight and the three people aboard the black hawk. >> helicopter, none survived. >> as for the cause of. >> the collision, investigators. are still assembling a. fuller picture. officials from the national transportation. >> safety board spoke to press a. >> short time ago. >> let me. >> just. >> reiterate what the chair said. a loss of life in an aviation accident is very unusual in the united states. and our heartfelt sorrow goes out to everyone that's affected. it affects us. it affects everyone around us. there are a

lot of people hurting today. we will help find out what happened. we will do it factually and we will do it accurately. >> factually and accurately. in addition to that investigation, there's also a great deal of. >> focus and new things we're learning about the victims. >> 14 of the 60 people on the passenger plane were figure skaters, young people on their way home from wichita, kansas. that's according to the u.s. figure skating association. >> we're starting to learn their names. spencer lane was. >> on the flight. this was him skating. >> back in november. >> shortly before the flight. he shared this photo to. >> social media before taking off the airplane wing of american. >> eagle flight 5342. and this is 12 year old. >> brielle beyer, another. >> confirmed victim in the tragedy. olympic figure skater. >> nancy kerrigan. >> addressed the disaster. >> earlier today. >> yeah, much like everyone here

has been saying is. >> not sure how to. >> process it. oh, shoot. >> i'm sorry. >> okay. >> which is. >> why i'm here. >> but. >> i just i feel for. >> the athletes, the skaters. >> and their families. but anyone that. was on that plane, not just the skaters, because it's just such a tragic event. and we've been through tragedies before, as americans, as people. >> and we. >> are strong. and i guess it's how we respond. >> to it. >> and so. >> my response. is to be with. >> people i care about and i love and need i needed support. so that's why i'm here. and i don't know, a little bit at a time. i think it's a shock. >> it is. it's also where we start the hour with my colleague. >> our senior. >> national correspondent. chris

jansing, at reagan national airport. every loss of life is the end of life. before this collision, for every family and every sort of radius of tragedy and loss, the. skating community has been hit particularly hard. >> we're learning that. tell me what. >> you're learning about the victims. >> the skating community is one that i know i covered for winter olympics. i've worked with nancy kerrigan and other well-known names you would know tara lipinski, johnny weir when you see the emotion from nancy kerrigan, that is a reflection of the love and the closeness that this community has. and i want to talk about those two young people that you pointed out from the boston skating club, because there had been national championships in wichita, and then they have a development program. if you're a young skater and you get named

to this development program, and you get to work with some of the top people in the world, including a couple who were gold medalists at the world championships from russia, who also, according to the kremlin, died in this crash. this is. a highlight of your career. it says to you, you may be the next big thing in figure skating. so you could see in that posting that spencer made there. there he is about to skate, but he put that posting. the last time he posted was a picture of the wing of the aircraft he was leaving wichita with his whole life in front of him, and now he's gone. his mother is gone. and as you said, 14 members of the skating community. what i can tell you from where i'm standing here, which is less than a mile from ntsb headquarters, they know that that folks want to understand what happened, what

caused this? it had been such a long time since there had been a commercial airline crash in the united states. so if i can, nicole, i want to show you the scene which is behind me, because i'm standing inside the terminal at dca airport, but you can see some of the boats out on the water. one of them, the large one, you see, is one of these cruise boats that does dinner dinners on the water. they don't do many of them in the winter, but there is one there. and what they did last night, when it was clear that this was a fatal crash, they got as many boats as they could there so that they could get the divers situated, they could get them into the water. and actually that boat is being used as kind of a, a headquarters, a place where they can meet and get together. and they're directing some of the other boats that are out there, but just 28 bodies so far officially have been recovered, which means a very long wait, excruciating wait for those families of the

other 67 who have died. nicole. >> chris, because we're talking about him, let me play. what spencer lane's dad said. >> it was. >> really just. >> kind of a force of nature. and about three years ago saw nathan. >> chen in the olympics and decided. >> hey, i could do that. >> he just. >> was like a phenom. >> and just loved it. >> and it wasn't. >> anyone pushing him. he was. just somebody who loved it. >> and had. >> natural talent, but also. >> just worked. >> every day. >> kind of just felt. >> like a. >> nightmare and. >> was. >> hoping i would wake up and it would be that. but it's. >> the new. >> reality that we just have to. >> work through together. and that grief and that pain is a story that will be told, as you said, by 67 families. without a doubt. and i want to mention the families, because not only were

they among the victims, because often the family members, the moms in particular, will travel with the younger kids, the teenagers. but also imagine this, nicole, when you're taking your child to a skating rink, you're getting up at 430, taking them at 5:00 in the morning, and they're out there skating. those skaters, even though they're competitors, they form a bond. and you as a parent, sitting in the stands waiting for them to finish so you can bring them back to school, potentially you form a bond. they travel around the country, in some cases around the world. the other skating moms and dads, brothers and sisters who don't skate, they all become friends. to talk about this as a community is to understand that kind of bond. they're going through something that very few people, even elite athletes, can understand, because this is something that reaches a pinnacle just once every four years. very few people are going to reach the top of the sport, but their love for the sport and i've seen it, i've spent a lot of times with these families. when you do

profiles on these olympic athletes, you go to their hometowns. the moms invite you into the kitchen to cook, or you know, dad has a special meal he wants to make, and they have this love for the sport and for each other. so i think what you're seeing, there is something that's going to take a long, long time for them to work through. and understandably so. the potential that was lost, the hopes and dreams that died when that plane went into the potomac behind me. >> chris jansing, thank. >> you so. >> much for. >> being there for us. >> i know you've. >> been on tv all day. thank you for sticking around for us. >> thank you. >> i want to bring in to our coverage aviation safety consultant alan diehl. he has worked with the ntsb, the federal. >> aviation administration. >> and the u.s. air force. just just. share with us your questions and your theories and what you think is happening, as it should behind closed doors in

terms. >> of the. >> investigation. >> well, nicole, obviously they're just getting started. they already have the audio tapes from the controllers, the radio messages. they they have the radar data. i'm sure they're looking at that. i'm sure they've ordered the maintenance records on the aircraft, the training records on the pilots, but they're basically just getting organized. and as the chairwoman of the ntsb pointed out, they're going to be different. a differential to the recovery efforts of the human remains, the victims. but once that's done, they'll be looking for the flight data recorders aboard the jet. unfortunately, i don't think there's a voice. i've worked on black hawk accidents for the pentagon. i don't think there's a voice recorder, which would have been very helpful. so they've got most of the pieces of the puzzle i think are they will have shortly and they'll start to use

their team. they call it the party system. there's experts from the air traffic control union, the pilots unions, obviously the manufacturers, the faa and so on. and they'll go about this as a team effort very methodically. and i can certainly remember back in 1982 when this happened, that, you know, at the national airport, then it brought back memories of that difficult recovery effort. many years ago. i was part of that investigation. >> alan, what is the. sort of reality of taking. >> off and landing. >> in what everyone has described as a pretty. >> busy and dense. air traffic space? >> well, it's not only very busy, it's quite limited because of the restricted areas. and we all know that they've limited the slots, as they call it at

national, just to try to reduce the congestion. but it's what they call sometimes in the air traffic controller ranks, the big show. the people that are in that tower are very skilled. and the pilots who fly in and out of there have to be specially trained. and we know that the army pilots were on a, a, an annual training mission. they may have been using night vision goggles. according to the secretary of defense, they had night vision goggles with them. it will be interesting to see if that may have been a factor. and i'm only speculating here if they were wearing them, if that made it more difficult to spot the airliner. but perhaps i'm speculating here. but when i saw that video of the mid-air and i saw that there was a third airplane in that airspace, i'm. i wondered if maybe the army aviators thought that that third airplane was, in fact, the american jet. and, you know,

that i've had this happen. i've flown out of this airport and as a pilot in faa airplanes, and it's a very busy airspace. and at night, it's sometimes hard to spot the lights on other aircraft in the area because of the city lights. and if you've got more than one aircraft up there, you need to be awfully sure when the controller says turn behind. in this case, the american regional jet, you know, which which target or which airplane you're looking at. and it's easy to get confused at night. the, the other thing that will be looked at very carefully by the ntsb is a second by second visual depiction. it's called an a kilometer picture from both the pilot and the copilot seat on the blackhawk as to what they could see. you know, was there a piece of blackhawk structure that was blocking their view of the american jet until the last second? so again, this is a very

methodical process that the ntsb is launching into with the help of many other experts. >> donald trump today blamed dei programs and past presidents, including president obama and president biden, with the investigators be looking at dei and president obama and president biden. >> well, the chairwoman said they would be looking at all aspects of certainly all aspects of the human side of the equation. and i, i suspect if they find that the, the, the pilots or the controllers were somehow substandard. we'll hear about it. but i'd be very surprised, especially in the case of the controllers, the faa employees, if you work at national, you're you're one of the best. i happen to know a female controller. she didn't work at national, but she's worked at other critical assignments. and these ladies are, in my experience, are very,

very talented. and that they do. and i should tell you that my two flight instructors for my private pilot license and my multi-engine license were both female, so i, i don't know that i have i can't agree with the president that just being a member of a minority group or a gender should eliminate you or reduce your chances of being a controller or a pilot, but clearly they need to address that. it's on his mind, and they're going to have to look into that and see if there were any shortcuts taken with either their selection or their training. so we'll know. i think we'll know that answer. the ntsb is very independent, and i think they'll call it as they see it. >> we need that calling it as they see it. alan dale, thank you so much for being part of our coverage. we're grateful to you. up next for us, donald trump's pick to lead his. >> department of national. >> intelligence under the microscope by united states senators today, testifying

before them and unable to admit an assessment agreed upon by those on both sides of the aisle that edward snowden is a traitor to this country. we'll show you some of tulsi gabbard's combative. confirmation hearing also ahead. also appearing back on capitol hill today was rfk jr. back after what was agreed to be a rather disastrous performance yesterday and still unable to calm concerns about his stance on vaccines, that the his stance on vaccines, that the white house the highlight of the day is mahomes getting the new iphone 16 at t-mobile. it's built for apple intelligence. hustle down to t-mobile like a dog chasing a squirrel... chasing a nut! at t-mobile get iphone 16 on us. blink. relief. >> work. >> play. >> blink. >> relief. >> the only 3 in 1 extended

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i guess what i'm looking for from you is, i mean, i know how the fire affected me, and there's always a constant fear that who's to say something like that won't happen again? that's fair. we committed to underground, 10,000 miles of electric line. you look back at where we were 10 years ago and we are in a completely different place today, and it's because of how we need to care for our communities and our customers. i hope that's true. [joe] that's my commitment. [ambient noise] >> school pills. get $30 off at ro covid. >> president trump's first 100 days watch. >> i'm going to be here five days a week again. >> read and listen. >> staying up half the. >> night. >> reading executive orders. >> for this defining time in the second trump presidency. stay with msnbc. >> tulsi gabbard's flip flops on.

>> issues pertaining. >> to the. >> war in ukraine. >> vladimir putin's russia and syria were on full display in front of the senate intelligence. >> committee today. >> but for all of gabbard's hearing to be the nation's director of national intelligence, came from her feckless and seemingly unpatriotic responses to a line of questioning about edward snowden, the former american intelligence security contractor who leaked thousands of classified documents. a leak which a bipartisan congressional report concluded, quote, put american soldiers and personnel at risk. edward snowden currently lives in russia after vladimir putin granted him asylum and gave him russian citizenship. there is agreement from both sides of the political spectrum in america that snowden is a traitor. it's one of the few things they don't fight about. but gabbard has long been a supporter of edward snowden.

she has called him, quote, a brave whistleblower. and while she was a member of congress, she introduced a bill with matt gaetz to pardon snowden. so when she was asked multiple times today to call snowden a traitor, she wouldn't and couldn't do it. and that refusal could have major consequences for her confirmation. here's her exchange with republican senator todd young of indiana. >> tulsi was was edward snowden false to an obligation or false to a duty? >> i don't understand what you're saying. false. >> he had. yes. did he betray a duty? but he. did he betray the trust of the american people? which is, according to merriam-webster. that's the definition of a traitor. >> edward snowden broke the law, and he released this information in a way that he should not have. he also acknowledged and exposed information that was unconstitutional, which drove a

lot of the reforms that this body has made over the years, to make sure that americans constitutional rights are protected. >> for what it's worth, mr. snowden is watching these proceedings. he's he's posted on social media even indicating that tulsi gabbard. should indicate that i harm national security. this may be the rare instance in which i agree with mr. snowden. i think it would befit you and be helpful to the way you are perceived by members of the intelligence community. if you would at least acknowledge that the greatest whistleblower in american history, so-called harm, national security. >> you can do it. joining our coverage, former congresswoman from california, jane harman. she served as ranking member of the house intelligence committee and most recently was chair of the commission on the national defense strategy. also joining us is ambassador michael mcfaul, former ambassador to russia and

msnbc international affairs analyst. and with me at the table, former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs during the obama administration. rick stengel is here. congresswoman, i know that the intelligence committees used to be this rare oasis of bipartisanship. tragically, that moment has passed. but edward snowden is something that they still agree on. what does it say? how can people that maybe aren't as steeped in intel speak? how can they sort of place tulsi gabbard as being so far, she seems so far out of the mainstream of both parties on this question. >> well, i don't think the only issue is whether she can mouth the word traitor. i think the issue is whether she can fill the role and whether she understands what edward snowden did. i was there i was a principal coauthor with susan collins, a senator, susan collins, who still serves on the senate intelligence committee of the law that sets up the

director of intelligence. i know a boatload about this. i was there when snowden stole our intelligence playbook. that's what he did. there were classified briefings. so i can't tell you everything he did. but my mouth was open for days listening to what he did. so i don't have a trouble with a word. what i have trouble with is someone who might not fully recognize the role that he played. >> let me play some of that line of questioning, trying to pursue, i guess, more than just the t word. this is from senator bennett. >> we are not here to be a rubber stamp for the president of the united states. so let me ask you again. do you believe, as the chairman of this committee believes as the vast majority of members of our intelligence agencies believe, that edward snowden was a traitor to the united states of america? >> senator, if confirmed, this. >> is when the rubber hits the

road. this is when this. >> is not you to make sure that there not a moment. >> snowden social media. it's not a moment to propagate theories, conspiracy theories or or attacks on journalism in the united states. this is when you need to answer the questions of the people whose votes you're asking for to be confirmed. as the chief intelligence officer of this nation. as my colleague said, this is not about you. it's about the people that serve the intelligence agencies of the united states. is edward snowden a traitor to the united states of america? that is not a hard question to answer when the stakes are this high. >> senator, as someone who has served in. >> yes or no, is edward snowden a traitor to the united states

of america? >> congresswoman, i guess i played all that because he he gets it. why this matters, right? it's not. i mean, with trump, it's all performative. but when you die serving the country's intelligence communities, you don't, as you know better than anyone, you don't get a parade. streets aren't named after you. you die anonymously. and it falls to the members of this committee, the democrats and the republicans, to look out for them. with that in mind, what does she represent to them? the workforce of the intelligence community? >> well, it's the senate that has the vote. i don't want to tell senators how to vote, but i do want to say how serious this is. intelligence. accurate intelligence is the tip of the spear. if we don't know what could, might, will happen to the united states, either to our homeland security or externally, we will not be prepared. and that's the security of all of

us. and it's not just republicans or democrats. it's all of us. the terrorists don't check our party registration before they blow us up. and i was there for these massive intelligence failures that set up the law, creating the dni and our intelligence products have been much better. the most recent dni, avril haines, has been superb. it's not perfect. there's too much staff reforms can be made. but i am saying she is undergoing a questioning about whether she can fill this role adequately. and in addition to the snowden issue, which is huge, there's section 702, which i'm sure you're going to ask others about, which are powers that we expanded so that we can find out plots against the united states. there is her trip to syria. i went to syria on a codel, but it was a very different kind of codell when i was there with a bipartisan group from the intelligence committee. so i'm saying i want

to commend senators for being tough and making sure they make the best decision about a crucial function of our country. >> ambassador mcfaul, weigh in on everything that is on the line with how this this vote goes for this nominee in particular. >> nicole, i have so many things to say. how much time do we have? >> take your time. take your time. >> a couple of things. so edward snowden is a traitor. i was the us ambassador in russia when it came to russia. everybody knows that. every senator on that committee knows that. and what we need to know, will they have the courage to do the right thing? they're asking her to say the obvious thing, and she's refusing. i hope senators will do the right thing. she is not qualified to do this job, and i'm not afraid to tell senators how to vote. if you vote her to be the director of national intelligence, you are not putting american national

security first. second, nicole, you said something really important just now about the people that she will be leading again. i was sitting in moscow when edward snowden showed up. i was on calls with our senior intelligence community every single day for that entire summer. they think of him as a traitor. we tried to do everything we could to get him back. how will those people serve this person who does not believe that he was a traitor? she will have no space, no no allegiance from the very people that she needs allegiance to have. and the fact that she could have reversed herself, she could have said, i made a mistake. i've now seen the evidence. i think i've changed my mind. and she refused to do so. if she walks into that office, she will not have that community behind her. and the last thing i want to say, we have real enemies in the world today. we have real adversaries.

we are in a moment of great power competition with china, russia, iran, north korea. her views on assad, you know, he was aligned with all those people. this is a serious moment where we need serious people in this job. and i just hope our members of that committee and other senators, republican senators, will understand the moment of history we are in. this is not a game. we need serious people in these jobs. >> would she pass a background check? just a standard. i think it's sp 286 form to work in an embassy. ambassador mcfaul. >> i would have to look at the form, but i, i don't know how to answer that question. i want to be careful about that question. that's a good question. but it's just on her, you know, her competency and her views. remember, the intelligence community uses this word all the time. we assess with low probability, medium probability. we assess, we assess, we assess

the job of the dni and the director of the cia and all those people is to make assessments about intelligence. and she's just demonstrated that she does not have an ability to make assessments, you know, wise assessments. >> no one's going anywhere. we're going to bring rick in on the other side of it. very short the other side of it. very short break. i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... —yeah? —yes! ...this year, we are finally updating our kitchen... ...doing subway tile in an ivory, or eggshell... —cream?... —maybe bone?... don't get me started on quartz. a big big island... you ever heard of a waterfall counter?... for everyone who talks about doing that thing, and, over there. but never does that thing... a sweet little breakfast nook. chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving to make this happen. —really? —really? really. at home or in-person. you could also check out a chase money skills workshop. that's guidance from chase. make more of what's yours. when they separated families, we took them to court and won.

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store today. >> not only do you think that someone who divulged secrets and then ran off to russia should be celebrated as brave, but you don't seem to understand the dna's role in determining whistleblower determinations. in fact, the dni has a significant role in transmitting lawful whistleblower complaints to this committee. they're all laid out right here in this statute. and i would have serious concerns about confirming someone who cannot distinguish between complaints that are made lawfully and those that are made not in the statute. it says the job of the dni is to protect intelligence sources and methods from unauthorized disclosure. that's a quote. i guess i'm asking what message would it send to have a dni who would celebrate the work of a member of the ic, or a contractor that

would, on their own mission, decide what's appropriate to leak? i don't understand that. >> we're back with former congresswoman harman, ambassador mcfaul and rick stengel. and, rick, what's really happening here? >> you know, what's happening here is something important. and i'm going to synthesize what my two esteemed colleagues have said already. the real job of being the director of national intelligence, which jane helped create. it's about judgment. it's about taking all these different silos of information and saying, what's the best thing for the president to have? what's the most reasonable thing? that's partially why it was created. her judgment is terrible. no person who's hiring anybody for any job who would look at the judgment of this person would say, she's eligible for this job. her judgment is suspect. she parrots stuff from russia today that should be just

disqualifying on its own that they are the enemy. they are the people that you're trying to marshal the intelligence against to call edward snowden a whistleblower is like calling luigi mangione a crusader for american health care. that's the kind of thinking that she has. and that's why she is not qualified for the job. >> congresswoman, why wouldn't you go so far as to urge senators which way to vote? you have a lot of sway. the intelligence community, a lot of people are super uncomfortable, both with television and politics. why not urge them to vote one way or the other? >> because i think i'm more effective talking about what the job is than criticizing the person. they can make their own judgments about the person and the other two people who are very bright on this panel are comfortable making the judgment about the person. but i would much rather say where we were in 2004 and where we are now, thank goodness. with an effective dni

function and national intelligence estimates that are accurate and people who want to work for the ic. i thought mike mcfaul made a very good point about people needing to respect their leader. and what if they don't respect their leader? and i just cause us to think again about the, the, the amazing entrance to the cia building with the stars on the wall. and those are the people who died in the shadows for our country. and most of them may not. some of them don't even have their names disclosed, and most of them don't have their roles disclosed. and i respect that enormously. and i want someone to be dni, which is the leader, the joint commander over 18 intelligence agencies, who inspires that kind of confidence. and i think we have just had that kind of leader, and we need that leader again. >> i mean, ambassador mcfaul, no one is dealing with the elephant in the room, so i'll take it upon myself to do so. sue gordon

had had that job. she was the deputy dni for donald trump, and she is moved to tears on this program. and she's a tough cookie. i'm talking about the lives that were endangered by donald trump's handling of national defense information, and the callousness with which he treats state secrets. did anyone really expect someone other than tulsi gabbard when donald trump was reelected? >> probably not. i mean, that's part of the problem. he wants a disrupter. he wants somebody to do this. he doesn't respect intelligence. he likes to give it to other people. we know that. and that's part of the problem, right? we're trying to have a rational conversation about who is best qualified for this job. and they have a different agenda. they want to destroy the american state. they want to disrupt it. and but that's why i'm so emotional. i apologize for it. this is not a time when we can destroy our

intelligence community. we are in one of the gravest periods of threat, in my opinion, that we've been in for decades. we got to have our a team on the field to deal with china, russia, iran, north korea. and this is one of the key jobs. the dni, avril haines did a fantastic job, by the way, but it is a tough, hard job. and to rick's point, it's the remember this job in part is to inform the president about what is important and what is not. and even if you don't like, you know, you don't agree with president trump's policies, foreign policies. you want him to be informed because we have incredible intelligence. you want him to be best informed. and i just don't think she's the best qualified person in america to do this job. >> we are all institutionalists, and i think of all the institutions, the intelligence community, if you've worked in

government, is one you have a special reverence for, in part because what we're talking about, people that believe in its mission do so anonymously their whole lives. oftentimes their families can't even or won't even know what they have done. it is also the agency that donald trump is most enraged by. it is the agency most. i'm going to go out on a limb and guess. fearful of what donald trump will do as part of his retribution tour, and kash patel, who was on capitol hill today, i didn't see field. one question about putting gina haspel, donald trump's former cia director, on his published public enemies list. and so i just want to come back at you one more time with what is really going on here. >> well, you you're getting at it in the sense that you have a president who doesn't value intelligence. part of the reason he doesn't value it is that is it because it's honest? it's direct. i mean, anybody who's dealt with people in the intelligence agencies in the cia

is would say, i agree with me, i think is that they're neutral. you don't know what political party they're in. they give you information, they give assessments, as mike said, but you can't even tell what they believe. and that is part of their job. the head of the dni is supposed to make judgments about that, but he doesn't like that clinical scientific approach because they say, you. >> know, you're incorruptible. >> they're incorruptible, and they see through him. and that is why he rebels. i mean, jane mentioned the opening of the cia. i think the most lamentable performance of donald trump eve, until today, when he blamed dni di for the crash, was that talk he gave in front of the wall in cia when he was first president? >> yeah, i mean. it was. >> it i mean, it it was disqualifying. >> yeah, yeah. there will be so much to discuss in this vein. former congresswoman jane harman, thank you for joining us today. ambassador michael mcfaul. thank you for being here. rick stengel, thank you for spending time with us. coming up next for us, robert f

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the world. say it does not. what do you think, senator? if you show me those studies, i will. absolutely. as i promised to chairman cassidy, i will. that is a very troubling response, because the studies are there. was the vaccine covid vaccine successful in saving millions of lives? i don't know, we don't have a good surveillance system. unfortunately, we don't know. i don't think anybody can say that. if you show me science that says that, bob, you say, if i show you you're applying for the job, i mean, clearly you should know this. and that is the scientific community has established that. >> even after having all night to watch the tapes on day two of his questioning by senators of a totally different committee, rfk jr gave alarming and in normal times disqualifying answers and non-answers and was still unprepared to respond to the

most basic questions about the functions of medicare and medicaid, about guardrails that exist on vaccine safety, or even about his own standards or views, what he would deem necessary to approve a vaccine. beginning the day with this from republican senator bill cassidy, the chair of the committee and a doctor. >> i have constituents who partly credit you for their decision to not vaccinate their child. your past of undermining confidence in vaccines with unfounded or misleading arguments concerns me. can i trust that that is now in the past? can data and information change your opinion, or will you only look for data supporting a predetermined conclusion? this is imperative. >> turning our coverage. former obama white house policy director and msnbc medical

contributor doctor kavita patel rick is still here. doctor patel, your thoughts? >> yeah, it was. >> more of the same. i will say this, nicole. it kind of added to all of the things we talked about or that we heard in the hearing yesterday, but even more so, there was apparently no education between yesterday and today on basics like medicare and medicaid. and then still, you know, unable even doctor cassidy, senator cassidy tried to kind of get him. and he did say, you know, well, vaccines and autism. and there was a bit of a moment there in the closing, but still, like, no ability to kind of draw that bright line and understand this link to the damage that could be done. i also found senator alsobrooks kind of comments really alarming the back and forth for questions and his response. rfk jr's response is pretty alarming around black persons and antigen load and just this incredible. i mean, nicole, this is like just literally setting us back not just decades, but almost a century of misinformation about differences between humans and what could actually lead to the

science and misinformation around that science. so but having said all that, i'm going to say this as a creature of someone who has worked in the senate, that i still think he'll come come out of committee, the senate finance committee, that has to put that vote through next week that crapo has put a commitment to. i think he'll come out of committee, and i actually still think he'll get confirmed. i still feel like a lot of what we saw is some posturing by republicans. but it will be interesting. even with a couple of no votes, it will likely be the secretary of hhs. >> and then what happens? >> well, i think this is what's important. i think what happens then is that you look to see that the other agency heads, which, by the way, today's health, education, labor and pensions committee, my alma mater, you heard some kind of references to nih leadership, fda leadership. these are incredibly important committee, important agency positions that the committee was asking about. and i think that's where a lot of the power comes. those people have to get confirmed by the senate. but to be honest, i think they'll get confirmed as well. and then what happens is you start to see actions at the

agency level. and what my concern is, is that all we've talked about are vaccines. don't get me wrong, they're incredibly important. but that is not the only work of the department. and what we don't understand is anything about the questions. he couldn't understand whether it's medicaid, medicare, drug supply, pharmacy benefit managers, these kind of fortunately, senator hassan, both yesterday and today where he was asking incredibly important questions around mifepristone, abortion, emergency treatment and access for patients, also talking about links with cerebral palsy. so many topics did not get addressed. that's going to come at the agency level. and unfortunately, a lot of what you did here when rfk jr didn't have an answer is president trump. dot dot dot. that's going to dictate that a lot of the power of control for these agencies and the directives are going to come from on high. and that is alarming in and of itself for so many reasons. you don't have a voice of dissent. anytime good policy is created, it's when there's a good tension and a dialog and discussion that's not happening. >> we'll keep asking you what happens next. doctor patel,

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