>> you've been watching the beat with ari melber. i'll be back with you at 6 p.m. eastern tomorrow. and now it's time for the reidout with joy reid. >> good evening. we have a lot. >> to get. >> to in the next hour. >> of the reidout. including donald trump's definition. >> of meritocracy added to the. >> tv host. >> reality tv. >> stars nepo kendis and jd vance, two more wildly unqualified people who have faced confirmation hearings today. iconoclastic former liberal democrat tulsi gabbard, nominated for director of national intelligence with zero intel experience and an apparent penchant for the former syrian dictator, and edward snowden and kash patel, the podcast bro who would have the flimsiest resume of any fbi director ever. so much to say. but we begin tonight with an unspeakable tragedy that has left 67 people dead and their families

devastated. at 8:47 p.m. last night, a black hawk helicopter collided with an american airlines jet en route from wichita, kansas, as it was preparing to land at washington's dca airport, leaving no survivors. the victims included 14 bright young souls returning from a skating competition in kansas, including a number of skaters and their coaches who were based in boston. >> it was really. >> just kind of a force. >> of nature. and about three years ago saw nathan chen in the olympics and decided, hey, i could do that. he just was like a phenom and just loved it. and it wasn't anyone pushing him. he was just somebody who loved it and had natural talent, but also just worked every day. kind of just felt like a nightmare and was hoping i would wake up and it would be that. but it's a new reality that we just have to

work through together. >> this tragedy is the deadliest u.s. air crash in nearly 24 years, and the first test of donald trump's second administration, an administration fully staffed with people trump chose not for their experience, but because he likes the way they look on tv. the two men who had the agencies directly implicated by this tragedy are secretary of defense pete hegseth and secretary of transportation sean duffy. hegseth spent the majority of the day before the accident back to back at his old tv home, fox, where he appeared multiple times to explain how di was dead at his new job. >> what's happening with di? how is that going at the defense department? >> well. >> di is not. >> going well at the. >> defense department. >> because it's dead. >> most of america discovered sean duffy when he appeared on season six of the real world boston. they're both really good at television, and they've made

a good living being on tv. but what neither of them has is actual experience managing large agencies or crises like the one that struck the d.c. area last night. the level of duffy's expertise was on display early this morning. >> obviously it is. it is not standard. >> to. >> have aircraft collide. >> want to be clear. >> on that. >> genius conclusion? sean, you're doing a great job. look, there is a good reason that trump loves these guys. and it's because it takes one to know one. this morning, the reality tv president took the opportunity to capitalize on this unspeakable tragedy, to blame everyone and everything from diversity, equity and inclusion to barack obama and joe biden claims that are, to put it kindly, bunk. >> so i. >> changed the. obama standards from very mediocre at best to extraordinary.

>> i put safety first. >> obama, biden. >> and. >> the democrats. >> put policy. >> first. >> and they. put politics at. >> a level. >> that nobody's ever seen, as they put a big push to put diversity into the faa's program. they actually came out with a directive to white, and we want the people that are competent. >> how you can come to the conclusion. >> right now that diversity. >> had something to do with. >> this crash, because i have common sense. >> yeah. so here's the thing. trump can blame anyone and everything that he wants, right? but the reality is this horror happened on his watch and with his policies and his people in place. in fact, on his second day in office, president trump issued an executive order that called for an immediate end to dei programs at the federal aviation administration. and he did that despite the fact that the faa has had a shortage of air traffic controllers for

years. but as a result of trump's day one hiring freeze, no federal civilian position could be filled. also, there was no one in charge of the federal aviation administration at the time of the crash. michael whitaker had been the head of the agency that oversees airline safety, but he quit after elon musk waged a twitter war against him, demanding that he resign. so what did whitaker do to upset president musk? in september, whitaker had proposed fines of more than $600,000 for spacex because it was the only tool they had to get compliance on safety matters. trump appointed someone to the position hours after after the accident. and here's the issue with these celebrity cabinet officials. they aren't the big dogs in charge. in fact, the guy who holds their leashes is elon musk. well, lucky for us, musk has burrowed himself into multiple agencies from the office of personnel management

and the general services administration all the way to the fbi so he can run the whole government, not just the part covering the airlines. late this afternoon, trump, who seemed angry, annoyed and a little glib, was asked if he had any plans to visit the site of the accident. >> do you have a plan to go visit the site or meet with. >> any of the. i have a plan to visit, not the site. because what you tell me, what's the site? the water? >> or to. >> meet with the first responders? >> wow. musk. trump, hegseth, vance and duffy want you to believe that they are right on top of it all. and you should trust them to run american aviation because they look the part, right? i mean, just look at how non-diverse they are racially and gender wise. but the facts are far less convenient. according to early reports, staffing was not normal in the air traffic control tower at the time of the crash. and according to the faa, 94% of pilots are already white, 84% of mechanics and technicians are white, 84% of engineers are

white, and 78% of air traffic controllers are also white. so unless white dude is the new dei, i'm not sure what that has to do with anything. lastly, while i know that we live in a time where trump cabinet officials live for tv, a former national transportation safety board official told nbc news that normally the only agency allowed to release factual information is the ntsb. the president, the defense secretary and the transportation secretary should not have been commenting on investigative matters. but you know what? nothing matters when you're trying to move fast and break things, which just so happens to be things that we as a country really rely on, like the faa, for our literal physical safety. joining me now is congresswoman sharice davids of kansas, where the flight originated. she's a member of the house transportation and infrastructure committee and the aviation subcommittee. also joining me is retired marine lieutenant colonel amy mcgrath, founder of the democratic

majority action pac. thank you both for us to be here. representative davids, i want to start with you and talk and let you talk about your community and how they are handling this, and also how you feel about the president of the united states weighing in and giving his own diagnosis of this crash, rather than waiting for the ntsb. >> yeah. i mean, the. >> first thing i would say. is that this. >> is. >> this is so heartbreaking. >> and as. >> more details emerge. this is heartbreaking for, you know. >> kansas is. >> a small state and we. >> all are going to feel. >> the effects of this. >> our hearts. >> are breaking. >> for the. >> families and. >> also have so. >> much appreciation and gratitude for the first responders. right now, we're in a situation where we do not have the facts of what exactly happened here. and, you know. the transportation safety board. >> the. >> pentagon.

>> the faa. >> all of these officials are working. >> together to. >> do what they're. >> trained to do. >> which is to investigate the causes. of. this tragedy. >> and i. >> i believe that it is it's not only reckless, but irresponsible for any federal official, whether it be the president, a secretary or anyone else, a member of congress, to try to comment on what may have been the cause until the ntsb concludes their investigation. yeah. and it's. >> it actually. >> go ahead. it's a matter of respecting the people who have been impacted directly by this. you know, the families deserve dignity and respect and for there to be a thorough investigation. >> well, let me ask you this, because we do know some things. there are some facts on the ground. we know that the there's normally two people in that control tower that, you know, obviously there is a shortage of

people in that control tower. but these are the things we know for a fact. on january 20th, donald trump, donald trump's faa director, resigned under pressure from elon musk. we know that same day, this was on inauguration day, donald trump froze air traffic controller hiring, along with all federal hiring. the aviation safety advisory committee was disbanded. on january 22nd, the buyout demand, which is not really a buyout, trying to get people to resign in exchange for some vague promises to existing employees, went out january 28th and on january 29th, the very next day, we had this crash and donald trump tried to blame president biden. but here's the number of critical of, you know, deadly airplane crashes that took place and fatalities under president biden. the answer is none. there were none. he also tried to blame president obama. president obama, there was one in february of 2009. so we know that nine, ten days into his administration, after he changed the nature of employment at this, these the agencies that

matter, this happened as a member of congress, do you feel that this is something that actually needs to be looked into a bit further? >> i look at this stage right now, what i can tell you is that i want to make sure that as a member of congress and someone who sits on the aviation subcommittee, who has who has, you know, i've unfortunately had to perform oversight duties because of the tragedies that happened with the boeing max. in my first two years of congress. the most important thing for us as members of congress to do is to let the ntsb and the investigators conclude their investigation so that we can really take stock of what happened and make sure that we're appropriately addressing addressing these issues. and again, i think it is irresponsible for any federal officials, the president included, to try to, to try to come up with off the cuff what reasons might, might exist.

>> yeah. let me let me go to you, amy mcgrath, because you've actually, you know, this is something that you're very familiar with. obviously, these chopper, these these military choppers and. et cetera. and, you know, having served yourself, i want to play for you, peter alexander, nbc's peter alexander calling trump out on the idea that diversity and inclusivity caused this crash. we don't have it. okay. well, peter alexander asked him that you that he had cited an faa guidance, but the implications that the policy is new or that it stemmed from efforts that began under president biden or the transportation secretary, pete buttigieg, he says it's demonstrably false. and he asks, and donald trump says, no, it's not false. and he claims that he changed the guidance that was on the faa website that existed when president obama established it in 2013. but we actually our producer here pulled the screenshot of what that guidance

was during trump's entire first administration. and it said the following. a key focus for the faa's office of civil rights is to identify specific opportunities for people with targeted disabilities, empowering them to and facilitate their entry into a more diverse and inclusive workforce. and as indicated, this is a screen grab showing that he didn't change anything. the targeted disabilities under trump included hearing vision, missing extremities, partial paralysis, complete paralysis, epilepsy, severe intellectual disability, psychiatric disability, dwarfism the same things that he called out for biden's faa. can you just speak to this idea that donald trump is trying to blame diversity and inclusion when he also practiced it as president? >> well, here's what i can say. look. the standards for. >> being an air traffic. >> controller or for being a. >> pilot in the united states of. >> america are very, very high. they were high under president obama. they were high under president trump. they were high under president biden. and

they're high today. and so this idea that the current president would infer that d or that really anyone at this point, jo, is to blame for this tragic mishap. i mean, we're still pulling bodies out of the river. think about that. an investigation will happen. it will take probably a month, maybe more. there's a number of things that could have happened. this is a very busy airspace. military flying is also very dangerous. we have the potential for pilots to have been on night vision goggles. there's lots of things. but you know what? anybody making blame right now is wrong. it's irresponsible. and it's particularly shameful for the president of the united states to make it. >> it seems that he's listening to charlie kirk, right? charlie kirk, back in 2024, said when he sees a black pilot, he wonders if they're even qualified at

all. donald trump came out, essentially tried to blame diversity for this and throw it on their favorite, you know, dni, which is their their their favorite little, you know, thing to beat all the time. but the reality is the people that he's put in place could be very clearly said to be not qualified. you know, you know, no offense to sean duffy. i'm sure he was really great on the real world. i'm not sure what qualifies him to lead the faa. i'm not sure what qualifies pete hegseth to lead the dod. and yet we're expected to believe they are qualified. it wouldn't it sense be offensive to other black hawk you know, pilots if donald trump is trying to tell them he knows better what this pilot should have done. and he knows better whether or not a diverse person has the right to fly a black hawk or a plane. >> well, you know, donald trump knows about as much as about airspace and aviation as he does about bleach and covid. okay. he's not somebody that we should be listening to in that manner. and it is offensive. i will say

that, you know, aviation in general and people need to know this. becoming a pilot or an air traffic controller. there are very objective standards for that. the aircraft does not know if you're a man or a woman. the simulator does not know if you're a man or a woman. you can either put the plane, land it or not. you either know the emergency procedures or not. you either are able to fly that thing within the regulations or not. and so to me, this whole idea about, you know, minorities or diversity being a problem in aviation, this is probably of all of the career paths you can choose the one that has the most objective standards to qualify. >> yeah, indeed. i'm going to give jd vance the last word he said. when you don't have the best standards in who you're hiring, it means on the one hand, you're not getting the best people in government, but on the other hand, it puts stresses on the people who are already there. i think he doesn't understand how much that

applies to his own administration. fellow members of his administration, congresswoman sharice davids, that's me saying that, not you both, congresswoman sharice davids and amy mcgrath. thank you both. up next, the senate judiciary committee held a confirmation hearing for extreme maga ideologue kash patel for fbi director today. and he had the audacity to claim that he doesn't have an enemies list, even though that list is in his even though that list is in his own book. that's next. for people who feel limited by the unpredictability of generalized myasthenia gravis, season to season, ultomiris is continuous symptom control, with improvement in activities of daily living and reduced muscle weakness. and ultomiris is the only long-acting gmg treatment with the freedom of just 6 to 7 infusions per year, for a predictable routine i can count on. ultomiris may lower your immune system's ability to fight infections, increasing your chance of serious meningococcal and other infections which may become life-threatening or fatal. complete or update meningococcal vaccines at least 2 weeks before you start. if treatment is urgent, and you're not vaccinated,

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republicans. take care with what they're inheriting. >> the fallout. >> from meta. ceo mark zuckerberg's decision to end fact checking. >> what's your message. >> to concerned voters about where the country may be headed after the biden administration leaves. >> actually behind closed doors? >> they're still. >> asking. >> what the hell happened?

>> of all the scary picks for donald trump's cabinet, perhaps the most dangerous is his pick for fbi director kash patel, who for the past several years has been spewing fringe nonsense like this. >> we will go out and find the conspirators, not just in government, but in the media. yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens who helped joe biden rig presidential elections. we're going to come after you, whether it's criminal or civil. we'll figure that out. but yeah, we're putting you all on notice. i shut down the fbi hoover building on day one and reopening the next day as a museum of the deep state. what you need to show is whether or not the fbi and government agents were using undercover operatives and informants on the day of january 6th. once you prove that, then you defeat the insurrection narrative with the fbi's own documentation. forget what the videotape shows. you know, the q thing is a movement. a lot of people attach themselves to it. i disagree with a lot of what that movement says, but i agree with what a lot of that movement says.

>> well, the confidence. but at the. at his confirmation hearing today before the senate judiciary committee, we saw a very different kash patel. he was doing everything he could to distance himself from his past unhinged comments. >> are you a follower or promoter of qanon? >> no, senator. in fact, i have publicly, including in the interviews provided to this committee, rejected outright qanon, baseless conspiracy theories or any other baseless conspiracy theories. >> mr. patel proclaimed the manhunt starts tomorrow and reposted a video depicting him taking a chainsaw to his political enemies. is that. >> you. >> kash patel? re reposting that at the top of that page. >> senator, i had nothing to do with the creation of that. >> is that you reposting? >> it was my. >> question and that's me at the top. >> is bill.

>> barr on your. >> list of whatever. >> you. >> want to call them? >> you know what's been referred to as an enemies list. you've called them deep state. after serving his country as the attorney general of the united states. is he on your list because of a personal vendetta? >> well, it's not whatever we want to call it. senator, with all due respect, it's not an enemies list. that is a total mischaracterization. >> i am not an enemies list, just a list of his enemies that he published in his own book. but even though patel claimed that he wouldn't seek retribution if confirmed as fbi director, he still wouldn't give a clear answer on whether he would investigate some of the people on that list. >> do you plan to investigate president trump's former fbi director, christopher wray, yes or no? >> i have no plans in going backwards i safe. >> how about james comey? do you plan to investigate him, senator? >> every investigation will be subject to the same. do you. >> plan to investigate james comey, who's on your list? >> i have no intentions of going

backwards. >> how about bill barr? >> intention of using the constitution. >> joining me now is senator alex padilla of california, who was at that confirmation hearing today. and i wonder if you got a satisfactory answer. i'm looking at this list. i've got three pages of everyone from president biden, former president biden to kamala harris to merrick garland. you could go i could go on and on. bill barr, john bolton, what confidence did you get out of this hearing today that kash patel does not, in fact, wish to investigate people on his enemies list? >> so good to be. >> back with you, joy. and the. >> the short. >> answer is no. >> in fact, what little confidence there might have been in kash patel serving in the fbi director position went completely downhill more and more throughout the course of today's hearing. and before i go any further, let me just take a moment to offer my condolences to the families of those who perished in last night's tragic plane crash in on the outskirts of dc in washington, dc.

horrible, horrible tragedy indeed. >> thank you for saying that. i want to note here just an nbc note here, that one current and three former fbi, fbi officials have told nbc news that several top fbi executives promoted by by director christopher wray, were told today to resign or retire and told they will be demoted or reassigned if they do not leave. this includes about a half dozen executive assistant directors who are some of the bureau's top managers. they oversee criminal, national security and cyber investigations. these are career civil servants, not political appointees. that feels like a bad sign when somebody who has engaged in conspiracy theorizing on podcasts now gets to come in and see if he can find any evidence of them. >> yeah, i mean, it's a combination, joy. it's. how bad is kash patel as the nominee for director of the fbi? unprepared, unqualified, clearly coming in only because of his loyalty to donald trump and prepared to carry out his vendettas. but when you take that together with

pam bondi on track to be the next attorney general of the united states, who also leaves a lot to be desired. tulsi gabbard to head the intelligence efforts for a donald trump administration. this is nothing but donald trump trying to seize complete control and command of the federal government despite the constitution, despite the law, and only for his political objectives. it's dangerous, it's unsettling. and the big question i have after the multiple confirmation hearings i've been a part of these last few weeks, is where are senate republicans with a conscience? because we can talk about the nominees and their disqualifications. we can talk about the president, how horrible he is. and we shouldn't be surprised if you consider his first term. but where are senate republicans in their commitment to their oath of office, to the constitution, or even their own constituents? their silence is deafening. >> yeah. >> i want to play your fellow california senator adam schiff and his exchange. really? that's

along those same lines today. >> i want you to turn around there. capitol police officers behind you. they're guarding us. take a look at them right now. turn around. >> i'm looking at you. you're talking to me? >> no, no. >> look at them. i want you to look at them if you can. if you have the courage to look them in the eye, mr. patel, and tell them you're proud of what you did. tell them you're proud that you raised money off of people that that assaulted their colleagues, that pepper sprayed them, that beat them with poles. tell them you're proud of what you did. mr. patel, they're right there. they're guarding you today. tell them how proud you are. >> among his conspiracy theories. kash patel has alleged there are government gangsters who are plotting against donald trump and, quote unquote, literally allowing gunfire at our president. i'm going to play one more clip. this is something from his children's book, him promoting it. take a listen. >> we are living in unparalleled times of corruption in both our media and government. it is our job to expose the truth no

matter what the cost. my name is kash patel and i have written the first ever children's russiagate book. it's called the plot against the king. it is a fantastical telling by me, the russiagate chief investigator under then chairman nunes, of how we try to put truth over evil. >> and senator, it perhaps that unseriousness is why, when trump apparently reportedly tried to consider making kash patel the deputy director of the fbi in his first term, then attorney general bill barr told then white house chief of staff mark meadows that patel would only achieve the post, quote, over my dead body. he wrote that in his memoir. does this seemingly unserious person, what damage do you think he could do as head of the fbi? >> well, i think he could do a tremendous amount of damage, beginning with weaponizing and politicizing fbi agents to go after donald trump's political enemies. that's the worst kept secret in maga world. but i'll give you another, more serious example. joy. you know, as the fbi director, he would oversee

the national background check system that we have for gun sales in america. the fbi is also in charge of regulating the machine guns as it is. assault weapons don't belong in a civic society. machine guns especially. but when i asked him about those two issues today, he played ignorance. you know, he evaded the question and seemed to not know that this is part of the portfolio of the fbi director. i've heard both republicans and democrats over the years express their concern about gun violence in america. and here's kash patel, donald trump's hand-picked person, only because of loyalty to trump, on the verge of being the fbi director. where are republican members of congress willing to stand up and do the right thing? >> let me ask you very quickly, just a sort of a very quick question. there is a lot of thinking among democrats just out in the world that democrats should stand against all of these nominees. none of you should have voted for sean duffy

for faa. none of you should have voted for pete hegseth. and i know you did. not that no one should vote for the lake and riley act, which is going to authorize and open the door for immigrants to be sent to guantanamo. do you think that democrats ought to shift their strategy toward saying no to all of these nominees? >> so i think there's a difference between the nominees. and then, like you said, the lincoln riley act, which is actual legislation, proposed law. when it comes to the nominees, it's a simple majority vote. and that's what we're looking for. republicans with a backbone to stand up and push back against donald trump when it comes to legislation, as we've seen with at least one resolution this week, when democrats stand together, we can leverage that to keep bad things from happening. and yes, we should remain united, because if you look at the bills coming over from the house of representatives, it's divisive, it's reckless, and it's dangerous for our country. >> senator alex padilla of california, thank you so much. and up next, trump's pick for director of national intelligence, tulsi gabbard, gets grilled by both parties in

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nominee for director of national intelligence, began with special treatment for the former congresswoman when the committee chairman, arkansas republican senator tom cotton, warned spectators in the committee room that any disruptions would be met with immediate removal by capitol police, along with additional support from former republican senator richard burr,

who once chaired the intel committee himself, who attempted to normalize the unconventional and quite inexperienced pick by touting her military service. the warm vibes soon fell apart as gabbard faced tough questions from both sides of the aisle about her past comments on russia, syria, foreign surveillance and her own judgment and qualifications. >> accusing me of being trump's puppet, putin's puppet, assad's puppet, a gurus puppet, modi's puppet. what truly unsettles my political opponents is i refuse to be their puppet. >> i continue to have significant concerns about your judgment and your qualifications to meet the standards set by law. >> is edward snowden a traitor to the united states of america? that is not a hard question to answer when the stakes are this high. >> senator, as someone who. >> has. served in yes or no, is edward snowden a traitor to the

united states of america. >> as someone who. >> has. worn our uniform in. >> combat, i understand how critical our national security. >> apparently you don't. >> joining me now is senator mark kelly of arizona, a navy combat pilot and member of the senate intelligence committee that questioned tulsi gabbard today. senator, thank you for being here. you have voted yes on some. you voted yes for sean duffy. yes to cia director john ratcliffe. you voted no on pete hegseth for defense and homeland security secretary kristi noem. can you tell us now where you stand on tulsi gabbard? i think i won't be surprised. >> well, i had questions. >> going into my. >> meeting. >> with her in my office. i had questions going into the hearing today. i still have a lot of questions. >> is she qualified? >> i just don't think so. >> do you think she understands the job? >> yeah, i think she knows what the job is and what it takes. i don't think she has the background for this. i've got, you know, very specific concerns. you know, edward snowden is one of them. you know, fisa is another you know,

the law. we have to collect intelligence that she thought we should get rid of. for me, one of the biggest things is how does she make decisions about what's real and what's not. she's got to figure that out for the president. and she's going to have a lot of intelligence every day in front of her. she's got to figure out what to present. you know what is real, what is, you know, the contradictory opinion on things. and after her trip to syria and after assad used chemical weapons on his civilian population, which i asked her about this today, and she agreed broadly that she understood that he gasped. his population killed men, women and children. but then she took, you know, the time and effort and her political capital to try to defend him on two specific cases. it didn't make a lot of sense and then used, you know, shoddy evidence. so i'm concerned about that. i'm certainly concerned with my colleagues about not being able to say that edward snowden is a traitor to this country. and the guy should be in jail. >> and i mean, he is for those

who do not recall, he is now a citizen of russia. russia offered him citizenship. he he left, essentially defected to russia after having given away national security information. >> that was turned over over a million documents to the russians, probably to the chinese. yeah. released stuff publicly. it has done tremendous damage to all of our safety. you know, your safety, your your relatives, your family. but what it did to our intelligence community and our military members of the military are much less safe today because of what edward snowden did. he should be in prison. he's a traitor to the country. >> so my question then is how can any united states senator, any republican senator who purport to obviously care about national security as well, just on that alone, support someone who supports edward snowden? i mean, you know, i understand you probably do not want to tell me what you what are your i don't. >> think they should support him. and i. >> think you get the sense she's going to get through, because i

think. >> i think there's a lot of questions that are still that my republican colleagues have. i think some of them have been answered, and probably a way that she was hoping would have gone the other way. i think some of them are still really, really uncomfortable with her running 18 intelligence agencies. so i don't think her confirmation to this job is certain. >> okay. that's interesting. and the question, i guess, would be what would be the biggest threat of what she could do in that position? what should people be most concerned about? should she be confirmed. >> in my view, giving bad advice to the president. and as she analyzes the intelligence and, you know, she's going to have a lot of stuff on her plate every single day, and she's got to try to, you know, sort through it and figure it out. and what's her decision making process while a member of congress, instead of believing the intelligence community? and i don't expect, i mean, the skepticism, healthy skepticism is a good thing. you know, you don't want to take everything on

face value. you want to ask questions, but instead of asking questions to the intelligence community, she went to outside people who were not experts. now, she claims a professor from mit, you know, had the right information and was an expert in these areas when clearly he was not. and just with a little bit of digging, she would have been able to figure that out. yeah. and, and instead she, you know, pushes aside what is a strong position of the us government and the intelligence community and accepts one person because it confirmed what she wanted. this is my opinion. it confirmed what she wanted to be able to say and put out there publicly. and i can't figure out why she would do this. >> yeah. i mean, the thing is, this is a common thread among, you know, you can say very similar things about kash patel. he believes certain things when he's doing podcasts. i think that's one thing. and it's perfectly fine to speculate on a podcast. but as fbi director, he

would have the power to use the resources of the united states, the awesome power of the fbi, to try to prove these things to be true. >> she's a podcaster, should be able to say whatever they want. sure, they're they're out there. they're trying to get viewers. >> but in these positions. >> the director of the fbi is a serious job. all of these, these cabinet level posts, especially the national security posts. sure. you know, the secretary of defense, you know, homeland security, director of the fbi, dni, head of the cia. these are serious jobs that are really hard. we want really qualified people who are serious, people who can, you know, who can figure some of this stuff out. yeah, i just and i respect her service in the military. i mean, she spent a lot of time, you know, in the in the army reserve, you know, in really respect. i mean, she she went overseas three times, you know, serving in combat zones. i have a lot of respect for her. i just don't feel like she's up to this. >> all right. we will see what happens. thank you very much, senator mark kelly. appreciate you very much. up next, it's been an absolutely exhausting news week, month year. thankfully, i have my friend and colleague chris hayes on next to

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to further his baseless lies about an airline crash. it's giving inject inject disinfectant vibes all over again, by the way. and by the time that you catch up and fact check one thing, he's on to the next. add to that the blizzard of staged executive orders so you barely notice that what his administration is actually doing is stumbling, bumbling, and failing, issuing nonsensical orders that they then have to walk back and sending federal agencies and state state governments scrambling in a panic. it's frankly exhausting. but nowadays, the truth is that the real power in this world is in the hands of those who can control that attention economy. and unfortunately, the maga right is really good at it. since trump and nearly everyone he's put in key positions are former reality tv personalities, fox hosts or podcasters. our friend and colleague chris hayes, host of all in, has written a great new book about just that. it's called the siren's call how attention became the world's most endangered resource. and chris

joins me now. chris, i've got the book in my hot little hand. i want it signed. did i explain the attention economy correctly? and if i did not, please explain it? >> no, i think you're exactly right. >> i mean, i think. >> that basically the conceit here is. >> that attention. >> is the world's most important. >> resource. >> and it's the most important thing, both in commercial life. right? >> the all those. >> tech billionaires on stage with trump are people that basically run attention companies, whether it's. >> apple or it's. >> x or it's meta or it's google. and then in public life, i mean, i think we see how trump's domination of attention has been kind of his superpower, even though it comes with its own costs. and yes, in the last day, look at this. last night, there was tremendous attention on the most deadly air crash we've had in years. a horrible tragedy. trump's immediate thought was how to basically surf off that attention, how to use that attention, and how to push it in the direction he wants towards people of color

and women are the problem. yeah. and so you've seen just this. and, you know, most, most politicians would be told, don't go out speculating and saying things. that's it's not good for the investigation. it's actually probably not good politically. it sounds tone deaf and weird. you'll get blowback. his north star is what will maximize the amount of attention on me and on the things i want at any given moment. and man, is that on display in the last 24 hours. >> yeah. i'm going to read you to you. i'm going to read your same book to you. trump cares deeply about being admired. you're right. sure. but he's such a broken person, his psychological needs so bottomless that he'll take attention in whatever form he can get. he'll take condemnation, rebuke, disgust. as long as you are thinking about him being willing to court negative attention at the cost of persuasion is really donald trump's one simple trick for hacking attention and public discourse. i found that exact same thing when i did my trump book, is that every person i talked to said the same thing. he just cannot live outside the

spotlight for one second. it's always got to be on him. it's neediness. how do we manage that as journalists when we have to deal with this man? >> and that is i think that is such a conundrum because it presents this sort of trolls conundrum, right, that that you could just ignore him today, but he's the president of the united states who's trying to essentially blame women and racial minorities for a deadly air crash based on absolutely nothing. so it's actually important to tell the truth about what happened and what we know, like you did in your book and what the context is. and so, you know, ignoring doesn't quite work. i think the key here is paying attention and focusing on the things that we all think matter. and not being whipped around constantly. so one of the things i've been telling myself and i write about in the book is that like focus is power and it's hard to focus. you saw i mean, they didn't schedule kash patel, tulsi gabbard and rfk jr, three of their most controversial nominees, on the

same day, same day, accidentally. right? they did it precisely to divide focus, right. so what we have to do, both as citizens and as journalists is find ways to focus. and that means some we're not going to get to everything. i mean, i think you and i are both right. we're wrestling with this in this first 11 days about how to deal with it. and it's also about democrats and other folks who are opposed to trump finding ways to get attention from themselves. i mean, that's the other thing, is that the world we live in, in which this resource is so precious, so contested and so fought over, that is the context in which politics happen. you can't just pretend it's not that that way or not deal with these attentional imperatives. and i think sometimes democrats sometimes understandably, want to just put their head down and do work. >> yeah. >> but the world doesn't quite work that way. politics don't work that way at all. >> and by the way, the democrats who are good at it, right? the jasmine crockett's and the aoc's normally get set aside by the older democrats who want to still do things the old way, and

it doesn't work at all. i do want to throw in one other thing that you do write about. elon musk is basically a different version of donald trump. same thing. he's he essentially you write. the two over twitter, right? just in order to force everyone to pay attention to him all the time. if you're on that app, x, twitter is literally just his microphone. and it's all about him. >> yes. and in the same way that i think from trump, trump's deep brokenness led him to this insight that he backed into because he just needs attention so desperately. it's not like he theorized it, right? the same thing happened to musk. i mean, musk, really some part of him, i think, broke from being online. and he backed into it, too, and he lit billions of dollars on fire. but what he backed into, in the same way trump backed into it because of their psychological brokenness, was the insight that if you pull enough attention together, you have vast power. you can make fortunes out of it, and you can make political fortune out of it. and now here's this guy who has managed to do that. he's bought this attention platform. he's made himself the main character, and now he is

utilizing that. he's converting that both into cash in the prices of his stocks because of the power and political power, because of the proximity he has to the president, united states. >> and like trump, he doesn't care if it's negative or positive attention. right. his little salute thing, he's like, i'm just going to ride even that, even though that's the most possible negative attention you could get. >> the perfect example of that was he did the salute not once, but twice. twice. i can't read his mind about what was in his heart and what he wanted to do. what i can tell you, though, is after the controversy, he went online and made a bunch of nazi jokes so that that there's no question about what he knew what he was doing. right. that is the ultimate form of troll politics. and fundamentally, that form of troll politics, which i think people are sick of, honestly, and we're going to get a rebellion against is the kind of dominant mode right now. >> the fact that you think that people are going to get sick of it and are going to rebel against it, is why i love you, chris hayes. you are an optimist to the end, and i my name is joy, but i'm a pessimist. see

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>> read and listen. >> staying up half the night reading executive orders. >> for this defining. >> time in the second trump presidency. stay with msnbc. >> and that's tonight's reidout. and guess what? all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight on all in. >> i think. >> it's a shock. >> and then when you find out. >> you know. >> you know some of the people on the plane, it's.