app today. enter $5 and get $50 instantly. prize picks run your game.

>> hi there everyone. happy friday. it's 4:00 in new york. in the next hour we will get another update from ntsb investigators with new details on the deadliest u.s. air crash in 20 years. there is new information to tell you about, though. the midair collision of a military helicopter and an american airlines passenger plane has claimed 67 innocent lives, and new footage has emerged of the moment of impact that sent both aircrafts hurtling into the potomac. emergency crews have recovered the remains of at least 41 of the victims. 28 of them have been positively identified. the next of kin have been informed for 18 victims, and 26 have yet to be found. investigators say that they hope to locate the remaining victims when they salvaged the jet's fuselage. investigators have recovered both black boxes, the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder from the passenger jet, which are now at ntsb labs.

the ntsb telling nbc news that the black boxes are in good condition and the data is right now being analyzed. the search for the helicopter's black box is ongoing. there's new reporting that suggests that staffing at the air traffic control tower at reagan national airport was not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic. quote, the controller who was handling helicopters in the airport's vicinity, was also instructing planes that were landing and departing jobs that are typically assigned to two controllers rather than one. the faa has announced it is indefinitely restricting helicopter flights near reagan national airport. meanwhile, there are questions about the black hawk helicopter and whether it was flying too high. the new york times reports this quote among the questions facing investigators is whether the black hawk helicopter left its designated flight path as it approached the airport for people briefed on the matter said that the helicopter

appeared to have been flying higher than air traffic control had approved and that it was, quote, above 300ft when it was supposed to be flying below 200ft, and it was at least a half a mile off of the approved route when it collided with the commercial jet. that is where we start today with archer, aviation chief safety officer and former acting faa administrator billy nolan. also joining us is former ntsb board member kitty higgins. i want to start with you and what we've learned over the last 24 hours, billy, what is sort of leaping out to you as, as, as perhaps the most fruitful areas of the investigation right now? >> well, firstly, thank you for having me on today. you know, i go back to robert isom, the ceo of american airlines, and his in his initial comments from dca from reagan the other day. right. this is this is an

otherwise normal night. you have an expectation. you've got you've got american eagle 5342. they're on short final. they're 30 to 40 minutes away from landing. so as far as they're concerned you know they've got a clear path. they see the runway. it's visual operation. and then you have you know, you have instructions from air traffic control to the us army helicopter to the crew as to whether they had the preceding traffic in sight. and that was a positively acknowledged. and they were told to maintain visual separation. so this is there's nothing abnormal about that kind of a clearance on a clear night. so this is kind of what you would normally expect. i've been in that situation before where i've had to maintain visual separation weather both daytime and nighttime. over the course of my 45 years of flying, you know, helicopters, airplanes, as a, you know, airline captain, etc. so i think, you know, and i'm sure i'm not here to speculate,

but what i would say, i think one of the focus will be, you know, what did the blackhawk crew see? you know, they called the traffic insight. did they misidentify? i don't know, i don't want to speculate about that, but i, i do think the, the ntsb and i will say i am a big fan. they do an incredible job. so certainly they'll get to the bottom of this. and i hope hopefully they'll have the voice recorder and the flight data recorder from the black hawk here, you know, recovered quickly. >> katie, what are your thoughts as you see more information start to come out about these final moments? >> well, i think that the issues you've identified are the ones that i've certainly heard about. i think the voice recorder as as has been suggested, will indicate what both what the crew was saying to each other, but also what communications they had with the air traffic controllers. and it's clear that

something was awry. and the numbers that you cited, the 200ft and is what i also understand is where they should have been, why they weren't there, if they weren't there, it's another it's a whole nother question that has to be resolved. and whether they mistook the flight of another flight for the helicopter is, is, i guess, still in doubt. we don't know. and but that's why we need those the voice recorders and the data recorder to see exactly where they were and what they were saying both to each other and to air traffic control. i mean, i think the other issue that has not been raised specifically is why isn't there any kind of alert system on the helicopter? apparently there was a system on the american airlines flight, which is standard, but it only operates at a certain altitude. and in this day and age, the technology exists to for not to rely just on the human

conversations, but also on the mechanical ability of these aircraft to notify each other and to alert the crews. and that, i think, is something that definitely has to be looked at. we have the technology. it hasn't been deployed the way it should have been, i think, and hopefully that will be discussed as well. >> i mean, i want to share some reporting from a friend of this program, carol leonnig in the washington post, because it it sounds like there have been other close calls where some of these issues may have been surfaced. she reports in the washington post. this quote on tuesday night, just 24 hours before a deadly collision between a military helicopter and a regional jet over the potomac river near reagan national airport, a different regional jet coming in for a landing at the airport alerted the air traffic control tower that it had to make a second approach. the cockpit crew quickly reported the reason to the tower. a helicopter had appeared near the flight path. flight tracking maps that night show an unidentified aircraft

almost directly under flight 4514 on the potomac river, as it was attempting to make its final descent, and just before the aircraft gives up on landing and instead makes a loop to try to make a second approach. i mean, kitty, what does that reporting tell us about how congested or perhaps how precarious these landings have maybe been for a while? >> well, i think it reflects the situation that we're learning more about at national airport, an airport that was designed for, i think it's 15 million passengers is now handling 25 million. that's a big increase. the space hasn't included because it's basically the footprint of the airport hasn't changed in all these years. it's a, you know, it's a beautiful airport, and it's incredibly convenient for those who want to fly in and out of washington. but it does make for a lot of congestion. and the question i think that will again, have to be addressed is what is how many

of those? it's not just a one off. we had the reporting that you're describing, but how many other incidents have there been that have been near misses that weren't reported because there were no fatalities involved, no accidents involved? that's what the ntsb will look at. that's what they're good at. and that and along with the issue of how many controllers were on duty, were we understaffed, as has been reported. and what should be done about that? >> obviously, the reason these stories stop every human being in their tracks is the randomness. it could have been anyone. i want to share some of what we're hearing from the families of the victims with both of you. >> my close friends. who are world champions, a husband and wife. i grew up with them. i compete against them. i knew

them since we were 14 years, extremely heartbreaking news for me. >> kindest person i've ever met. she went above and beyond and then took a giant leap over that. you know, when it came for doing things for other people, for me, for her parents, for my parents. >> i look after those people and they were my inspiration. i love all these people and they really support me. >> life is short. hug your loved ones, tell them you love them when they're getting on a flight. check up on them. text your family when you land. >> billy. he lost his wife on that flight and the others from the skating community. i imagine everyone who does the work of trying to understand what went wrong carries the knowledge that for all of the victims families, there's forever after. there's life before and there's life after. how does that weigh on

investigators? >> yeah, it's a it's an excellent. >> point, right? i think the challenge of this of our airspace and our air transportation industry, which continues to grow, which continues to expand, let me be clear, we have made great strides. we started with the commercial aviation safety team in, in 1997, that the faa and industry worked together on. we then ten years later, and that goal was to reduce the number of fatal incidents by by 80%. they they not they did it by 82% in ten years on, they said, let's expand the aperture. they created the aviation safety analysis and information sharing, or science as it's called, that meets twice a year. that was an effort to bring in universities, bring in our nation's military, bring in the airlines and maintenance repair organizations, etc. we continue to do the work. and, you know, as you know, this is a layered

approach. so when we think about safety as certainly in commercial aviation, right, all of these layers, we have controls, we have procedures. and it is absolutely right when we have something that a very tragic event like this. and what we say to ourselves is that we never, ever rest on our record. we've gone we 16 years in the united states without a fatal commercial passenger accident. right. in that time, we've moved over 13 billion people. but it doesn't matter when you get to this point where something horrific happens that you don't expect to happen, it's a good time for us to pause. so it's good for the faa. let's take a pause. whether that will be permanent or not, who knows? but it's a good time for us to pause and reflect, you know, to say, are there if there are weaknesses in our system there, address it. if there weakness in our procedures, let's figure out what we do. let's work together to so that we can give the public that sense of confidence

that they expect and really that they should demand. right? this is how our air transportation system works. so, you know, as has been said, the ntsb will get to the bottom of this. we'll come together. you know, you got the secretary of defense, you've got secretary duffy, you've got the president. everybody saying, we want to make it. we want to get to the bottom of this and say, how do we repeat a recurrence of this? and i you will see that happen. you know, this is these are all the headlines that we are talking about today. but in the ensuing days, we will really you'll see the work, really dig in and say, how do we make the system better and continue this resilient space that we've had? >> the reverend al sharpton has joined us in progress. rev, we are learning the a little bit more about two of the three soldiers who lost their lives aboard the black hawk helicopter. they have been identified by the us army as staff sergeant ryan austin o'hara, 28 years old, of lilburn, georgia, and 39 year

old chief warrant officer andrew lloyd eaves of great mills, maryland. we turn to experts. we wait for all the facts for a lot of reasons. it is it is true. and it is important that people understand what billy's saying that air travel is, is still largely, very, very safe. even though these stories shatter everyone's sense of feeling safe in an airplane. but not everyone has done that. the most powerful and prominent person in our country went to the white house briefing room and blamed past administrations and die. >> i think. >> out of all of the egregious things that i've seen donald trump do for 35 years in new york that i've protested or that i've seen him do as president, i've never seen anything that i

would even imagine that within 11 or 12 hours of a tragedy like this, while people are still at the bottom of the potomac river, not even having been brought out yet, families not even occur. he would go into this whole malicious attack on his predecessors and blame it on die. just outright race baiting, mocking people with that are disabled when we don't know who was involved. he didn't know who was involved, nor the circumstances to really at that point where he could have called the country together as he started in the first three minutes. let's pray for the victims. let's pray for their families. this is a time you step up and unite people. he used it to take shots at diversity, equity and inclusion, which no one knows. what does that have to do with what happened? and now you have people that are being smeared now at airports on or who's

who's flying. me and some other people are afraid to fly caused by the president of the united states. if you were a disabled person that had done all you were supposed to do that your guests have outlined, or if you were black or brown, imagine you being a pilot now, a flight attendant getting on a plane when the president has just put us all in a bag, that we're all die no matter how long you been there, no matter how qualified you are, this is as irresponsible and derelict in duty that i've seen. >> kenny, we had some reporting yesterday sourced to the faa that 94% of all pilots, according to the faa, are white. i wonder if there are any actual investigative theories that track what donald trump attacking. the former secretary of transportation, pete buttigieg, using the word bull bleep to talk about his record and blaming presidents obama and

biden. i mean, is there anything that you can see in terms of where the investigation is going that tracks with his ability yesterday morning to say it was caused by dei programs? >> absolutely not. as as the reverend has said. and let's just let me say it again, as a former board member, the role of the ntsb is to get to the bottom of this and to make recommendations that are based on the facts, not based on accusations, not based on speculation, but on the actual facts that are covered in the in the course of the investigation. the investigation is under way. i know we're going to hear from them a bit later today in terms of what what they've learned, but there's nothing that we know of at this point, and nor do i expect that there will be that suggests the cause of this accident had anything to do with die. >> billy, i want to bring you in on this as well, and just see if there's anything you see that

that may not be visible to the untrained eye that i bring to a tragedy like this that supports any of donald trump's theories. from the white house briefing room yesterday that the crash could be blamed on die. >> well, if i just go. >> back to my time. right. so i've been a pilot for 45 years, and that includes military service for nearly 17 years. that includes 26.5 years at american airlines, as a as a pilot, as an executive, as an international captain, time in australia, time in canada, at the industry association. right. i have, you know, been blessed that every every air traffic controller, every pilot, my first officers, the flight attendants, the mechanics, the people who, you know, inhabit all these airlines have all been the utmost professionals, blessed to have been at the faa. and certainly we worked hard. i remember walking through the

doors in 2022, and everybody i met there took a great deal of pride in serving their country and ensuring that they and my mantra was less deliver for the american people. and that's that was my mantra. every day you get up, every morning i would get up every day as an faa administrator and say, how are we doing? that will be the question i ask myself. so i think, you know, we look back, you know, it is always a good idea to let the yeah, remember, you know, senator cruz said this, let the let the let's let the investigation run its course, let the national transportation safety board do what they do, and we'll get to the end of this. and where there needs to be, where there's change, where there's improvement, let's leverage innovation. although that's, you know, that's the right path for us to take. >> i want to thank both of you for fielding questions about some of the information that came from the podium, facts from experts like yourselves have

never been more important or more precious. and i appreciate your willingness to share the facts and the truth with our audience. billy nolan and katie higgins. thank you. the rev sticks around. we will come back to this story in the next hour. ntsb investigators are expected to provide another update and what they're learning from those black boxes. when that news conference gets underway, we'll bring it to you. but when we come back, there is brand new reporting that has broken this afternoon on the purge at the fbi. that tells a different story than we expected. it is bigger than previously understood. the breaking news coming out of donald trump's justice department is next. and later in the broadcast, donald trump has tried to do a lot in his first two weeks in office, from pardoning the insurrectionists to revenge and retribution for mark milley and others. but none of it appears to be what the country thought they were getting or wanted. is there a political opportunity here for the democrats? former obama adviser dan pfeiffer will be our guest. all that and more

when deadline white house continues after a quick break. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... —yeah? —yes! ...this year, we are finally updating our kitchen... ...doing subway tile in an ivory, or eggshell... —cream?... —maybe bone?... don't get me started on quartz. a big big island... you ever heard of a waterfall counter?... for everyone who talks about doing that thing, and, over there. but never does that thing... a sweet little breakfast nook. chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving to make this happen. —really? —really? really. at home or in-person. you could also check out a chase money skills workshop. that's guidance from chase. make more of what's yours. if you take or have taken humira for moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis and still have symptoms... you don't have to settle. ask your gastroenterologist if switching to rinvoq is right for you. it's one of the latest treatments from the makers of humira. rinvoq works differently than humira and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can deliver rapid symptom relief, lasting steroid-free remission, and helps visibly reduce damage

of the intestinal lining. rinvoq can lower ability to fight infections. before treatment, test for tb and do bloodwork. serious infections, blood clots, some fatal; ...cancers, including lymphoma and skin; serious allergic reactions; gi tears; death; heart attack; and stroke occurred. cv event risk increases in age 50 plus with a heart disease risk factor. tell your doctor if you've had these events, infection, hep b or c, smoked, are pregnant or planning. don't take if allergic or have an infection. rapid symptom relief and lasting steroid-free remission are possible with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist to switching to rinvoq is right for you. you could pay as little as $0 per month.

the way i approach work post fatherhood, to switching to rinvoq is right for you. has really trying to understand the generation that we're building devices for. here in the comcast family, we're building an integrated in-home wifi solution for millions of families like my own. in the average household, there are dozens of connected devices. connectivity is a big part of my boys' lives. it brings people together in meaningful ways. nice to meet ya. guaranteed. plus, g my name is david. i've been a pharmacist for 44 years and i'm from flowery branch, georgia. when i have customers come in, i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective. does not require a prescription. and i've been taking it quite a while myself and i know it works. and i love it when the customers come back in and tell me, "david, that really works so good for me." makes my day.

prevagen. for your brain. becoming increasingly unstable. >> people are gravitating to him like a son. i bet everything on him being locked away forever. >> what we do. >> is try. >> to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. there's some new reporting that has broken since we've been on the air. it's something we've covered for years on this program, and it's happening. it can only be described as the start of a massive, much larger than expected purge at the fbi of fbi agents and officials, many of them, in one way or another, touched the investigations into donald trump. sources telling nbc news this the office of acting deputy attorney general emil bove asked the fbi for a

list of bureau employees involved in january 6th cases, sparking panic inside the bureau by people who fear retribution by the trump administration. amidst an ongoing purge of fbi leadership. meanwhile, my colleague nbc's ken dilanian reports that several top fbi executives were told to resign or be fired, and that the purge includes more than 20 heads of fbi field offices, including those in miami and washington, d.c. joining our coverage, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general harry litman. also joining us, nbc news justice reporter ryan riley. ryan, i've got your reporting in front of me, but why don't you share it with our audience? yeah. >> this is something i've been sort of chasing all day, and it's tough because there's so many, you know, rumors and a lot of worry being spread within the justice department, within the fbi. you know, so there's this community, obviously, of all of these people who work these january 6th cases, you know, on the fbi side, on the doj side. and so what we can report is

that there was this request for this, you know, list of all these individuals who worked on january 6th cases and that that's something that the washington field office has, has cooperated with thus far. you know, the issue here is that it's such a large list. and so the question is, how are they going to figure out who they're going to be focused and targeted, focused on and potentially targeting here. right. because it's just so many people within the bureau. this was the largest investigation in fbi history in terms of number of defendants. you're talking about over 1500 defendants overall. and this touched basically every field office in the country. and, you know, some field offices were a lot more enthusiastic about these cases, frankly, than than others, because there was a lot of skepticism about these cases within the bureau. and, you know, there was some, i think, tension between the fbi and doj and the washington field office and other field offices across the country over the handling of these cases overall. and, you know, but there are these there are there. so i think there's a span of this. right, because

there are people who were very vaguely involved in at 1.1 january 6th case. and then there's people who were really in the weeds in january 6th was their main focus. and i think those are the people who probably have the most to worry about in the coming days over whether or not, you know, they're basically just going to be fired or targeted based on what we've seen at headquarters thus far and coming out of the justice department so far. but if you were to go after everybody who touched the january 6th case, i mean, one i had one former official say that would be like three fourths of the bureau, basically because a lot of people were involved with this on one stage. and remember, those cases range from those very low level cases, sort of those misdemeanor cases that were of the most controversy all the way up to seditious conspiracy. but the more common one was those assault on a federal officer, charges that were really common. those charges, and even people who were skeptical of the justice department's handling of those overall knew, like, were behind those cases. and i think most of the american public would be, too. when you have a cop getting beat by a by a rioter, that's

something that most people say that should be something that's prosecuted by the federal government. so i think you know the devil. i mean, you know, the details are really going to matter here about who they end up focusing on nicole about, you know, as they go about sort of this ongoing purge of fbi leadership, and we'll see how far it's going to trickle down into the rank and file of the fbi. >> ryan. riley, i want to make sure i got this down. as you said it, three fourths of the bureau touched these cases in one way or another. >> yeah, i think that was, you know, a rough estimate, right, from a former official. but that's when you're talking about the scope of this, right? in every field office, you know, when you do an arrest, for example, that's a lot of people who are just involved in that arrest directly. right. so, you know, there might be somebody who's actually handling this case, who's actually championing one case going forward. but then when you actually go to execute that arrest, you need a bunch of officials involved in that. so then, you know, when you're talking about the paperwork here, there's a lot of names on a lot of these documents that you're talking about, the intelligence analysts who might have been involved with it as

well, because obviously everything has to be turned over in discovery. so those are all names that would be required to be turned over to defense attorneys on this. and when, you know, for example, let's take the case, one of the only ongoing cases involving a january 6th defendant who actually was convicted of plotting to murder fbi agents who investigated him, and that was a jury in tennessee that convicted him of that. separately, that case is still ongoing, although his defense attorney is representing that donald trump's pardon should apply to that conduct as well, even though that was conduct that was performed way after january 6th when he plotted to murder the fbi employees. but that case, for example, just comes to mind because that involved, i remember a large number of fbi employees, and when they turned over those documents, it was a lot of names that were associated with that, because in the discovery process, you've got to turn all of those names over. so even if there's only sort of just a passing involvement in one of these cases, your name is going to be on those documents. so that list of people who were involved in january, six cases at the fbi is really long. >> harry litman kash patel has

said in a podcast. if we have it, the control room will tell me that he wanted to turn the fbi into a deep state museum. if you wanted to do that, one of the steps you might consider is eliminating, quote, three fourths of the bureau that touched january 6th cases. >> yeah, that would certainly help, wouldn't it? and the timing here is a little strange when patel hasn't been confirmed. but look, just start with breadth. it is everything that ryan says. so if it's not three quarters, let's say it's just half. but remember 1500 people, they are still looking for some of them. so the possibility for one agency or another to be tagged with serving a warrant or interviewing a witness to try to find out all over the country. with this investigation, the largest in d.o.j. history is extreme. but and by the way, if it's anything like this, the implications for us, for citizens of 20 special agents in

charge being eliminated, all the things they do, public corruption, for starters. but street crime, everything. so. so the real. it's a body blow to everybody in the country. but i really want to say, even if the breadth were much smaller as it seems to be in d.o.j, a single agent being fired because he or she did their job as they were supposed to do. and in fact, here, under the direction of the of the department of justice, is just a complete stake in the heart of what the fbi and doj are supposed to be about. and it has it's not just those who get hurt. as ryan reported. and i've spoken to people already within the fbi, people are alarmed, completely nervous, wondering what to do. so you have a whole workforce. even if it weren't half the fbi involved, that is completely sort of frozen and

paralyzed. this is so shortsighted and so damaging for public justice in general. >> mike schmidt, new york times investigative reporter and msnbc national security contributor, joins us. you and your colleagues have just moved a story with some extraordinary reporting on exactly this. let me read a quote that jumped out at me from the new report in the times. quote, senator john kennedy, a republican of louisiana, told kash patel during his confirmation hearing that lawmakers would hold him accountable if he tried to exact revenge at the fbi, saying two wrongs did not make a right. quote. and there have been and may still be some bad people there, and you've got to find out who the bad people are and get rid of them in accordance with due process and the rule of law. mr. kennedy, a republican, said, quote, and then you've got to lift up the good people. don't go over there and burn that place down, go over there

and make it better. this is much more akin, in the words of republican senator kennedy, of burning it down. tell us more about what you and your colleagues are reporting. >> well, you know, reporting on this larger sort of what. looks to be the beginnings. >> of a purge at the top of the bureau. >> but the. >> to the kash patel question, what i. really wonder is, is why. >> they're. >> doing this right now. so kash patel has still not. >> been voted. >> on and confirmed. and the biggest question is whether. >> he is going. >> to weaponize the bureau and exact political revenge on people. either internally or. >> use the fbi. >> to do it externally, and to do this in this period of time just raises that issue. it says, well, well, it looks like the trump administration is already up. to seeking vengeance inside of the fbi, even before kash

patel gets there. >> so and if the. >> question is about kash patel or about. politicizing the fbi, this, this, whatever is going on here, this the beginnings of this purge only highlight that issue. now, i don't know if that means anything to senate republicans. i'm not sure if it really matters, but if the question of politicalization of the fbi matters, this is an example of it happening even before patel gets there. so will someone on the republican side say, well, if they're already doing this before patel gets there, you know what will happen if we confirm him? and will this make the confirmation? you know, the patel confirmation is not the easiest confirmation for trump. will it complicate it further? because it's just going to raise more questions about the central question of kash patel himself. >> i mean, to that point, mike kash patel testified to this,

quote, all fbi employees will be protected against political retribution. and the first line of the new york times story is on friday, interim leaders of the justice department instructed the fbi to notify half a dozen high ranking career officials that they face termination. i guess your point is a salient one. will any republicans care? i have to sneak in a break, but i want to come back and show you something that happened yesterday. i mean, trump won. his people all appear online on track to be confirmed. and yesterday, josh hawley told a fox news anchor that christopher wray lied before congress. i mean, is there a sense that the retribution will include scrutiny of chris wray himself? >> mike? >> i mean, i don't think anything is off the table. i think if we've seen anything about trump and retribution since he came back, it's. that anything is possible. the taking away of the security details from national security officials

who helped donald trump kill this iranian, this top iranian commander back in 2020, that that that that type of revenge and that type of vengeance was not something we had anticipated. so you ask, well, are they going to look at christopher wray? well, you know, are they going to take chris. you know, are they going to take christopher wray security detail away? i mean, i think we have shown trump has shown a willingness to go further than maybe we originally thought he would. now, i realize people would say with trump, you have to have any type of imagination. you have to keep all the possibilities open. and we obviously do that. but on the campaign trail, he was not saying, i'm going to take john bolton's security detail away because he wrote a really mean book about me, even though he helped me kill soleimani. but that's what he's done since he came back. and he did it to milley. and he, you know, he did it to people that that we didn't think they would do it to. so are they going to look at

christopher wray? like obviously christopher wray was in charge of the fbi as part of as ryan rightly points out, it's such an important point. the january 6th investigation is the largest investigation in the justice department's history. so, like, are they going to look at chris wray, the guy who was in charge of the justice department, the largest investigation in history, the guy whose agents conducted the executed the search warrant at mar-a-lago to get the documents back. i mean, i you know, we'll see what happens, but that would certainly fall in line with the other type of behavior and retribution that we have seen. >> all right. i'll show you that sound on the other side of the break. we have much more on this breaking news on the other side. don't go anywhere. >> i shut down the fbi hoover building on day one and reopening the next day as a reopening the next day as a museum of the deep “the darkness of bipolar depression made me feel like i was losing interest in the things i love. then i found a chance to let in the lyte.”

discover caplyta. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta is proven to deliver significant symptom relief from both bipolar i & ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. caplyta can cause serious side effects. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. anti-depressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. report fever, confusion, or stiff muscles, which may be life threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements which may be permanent. common side effects include sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, and dry mouth. these aren't all the side effects. in the darkness of bipolar i & ii depression, caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta. find savings and support at caplyta.com. (♪♪) years of hard work.

decades of dedication. committed to giving back. you've been there, done that. and you're still here for more. so now that you're 50 or older, and at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia and ipd be proactive with capvaxive- a vaccine specifically designed for adults to help protect against pneumonia and invasive disease caused by certain types of pneumococcal bacteria. capvaxive is the only vaccine that helps protect against the strains that cause 84% of ipd in adults 50 or older compared with up to 52% by other pneumococcal conjugate vaccines. don't get capvaxive if you're allergic to the vaccine or its ingredients. tell your doctor if you have a weakened immune system. common side effects include injection-site reactions, feeling tired, headache, muscle aches, and fever. whether you've had another pneumococcal vaccine or not ask your doctor or pharmacist about capvaxive. (♪♪)

outcome guaranteed. plus, g i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. but thanks to skyrizi and clearer skin--i'm all in. with skyrizi, i saw dramatically clearer skin.

and many even achieved 100% clear skin. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections, or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. with skyrizi, nothing on my skin means everything. ask your dermatologist about skyrizi today. patel, especially on january 6th. what will that look like, senator? >> well, number one, it will look like a change, jesse, because what we've gotten for the last four years is nothing but stonewalling. it's nothing but lies, frankly, from the fbi, the fbi director, when he's come before congress. it's time to get the fbi focused jesse on, you know, i don't know, criminals again, and actually putting violent criminals behind bars. i think cash will do that. you better believe the democrats are worried because they've been

cheering this on for the last four years. they talk about enemies lists and political persecution. the fbi has been their personal plaything. at least fbi headquarters has been for the last four years, and they're scared to death that patel will end it. they're not worried that he will actually persecute political opponents. they're worried he's going to stop the fbi doing that. >> i just have to hit pause here and tell you guys who he's talking about. christopher wray was handpicked by donald trump to replace jim comey, and i believe he was first on donald trump's radar because he was chris christie's defense counsel throughout bridgegate. christopher wray has also been appointed to jobs by george w bush. he he is he is none of those things. and josh hawley is a lot of things stupid and amnesiac are not among them. ryan riley, what is afoot when a republican senator goes on with that host on fox news and

knowingly lies about someone like chris wray? it's not my job to defend chris wray. the crime did go down while he was the director of the fbi. he did follow the facts. these were court approved searches to retrieve national defense information. what what is this about? >> yeah, i mean, you kind of have to, like, go back and just remember, if we go back ten years, right, you're in a whole different universe when you're talking about the fbi, because now it's just sort of this accepted thing amongst donald trump supporters that the fbi is some, you know, radical left wing organization. and it's just not true. it's this is a fundamentally conservative law enforcement organization. and, you know, if you just think about the feeders that go into the fbi in general, when you're talking about law enforcement backgrounds, you have an advantage if you're military, right? so you can go in a little bit later if you're in the military than you would be otherwise. so the feeders into it. and just also if you look at the makeup of the fbi in general, i should say it's, you

know, it's disproportionately white and male in, in proportion to the rest of the american populace. so just those feeders alone kind of indicate what the background of the fbi is. and there's never been a democratic head of the head of the fbi. you know, james comey was, of course, appointed by barack obama first, but he's a republican, lifelong republican. and all of these sort of the boogeyman that you've seen rise up on the right. who were fbi officials have have generally been republican. so i think you have to just sort of, you know, remember that and how crazy we've sort of got from reality when you just go back ten years and how well this sort of ongoing, i think, propaganda effort and targeting of the fbi has been. and, you know, with that knowledge you've got you've got to recognize that the fbi, there are a lot of people who are not excited about these cases. i'm going to use a technical term here, but there were a lot of field offices that were half assing these investigations that were not really very into them and not necessarily that wasn't always just fundamentally political. i'd say. there was also just a

lot of fbi special agents who didn't think that they should be working misdemeanor cases in general. and, you know, obviously, hindsight 2020, in retrospect, the way that the justice department went about this because they didn't know how big the capitol attack was because they didn't know how many people went inside. they, i think, went after some of these lower level misdemeanor cases that they probably wouldn't have gone after in the end, because when we now know that more than 3500 people entered into the capitol building and they were never going to get to that number, right? so and a narrower scope probably would have been ultimately more successful. but that's just information that they didn't have when they started this investigation. but those those assault on federal officer cases, i think are really going to be a main thing to focus on here, because if they go after people who were working these cases and trying to vindicate their fellow members of law enforcement who were viciously assaulted by by trump supporters who were spun up on his lies about the 2020 election. i think you're going to you're going to have some problems because, you know, i

sat in courtroom, courtroom during this trial and i heard this testimony and one that just sticks out to me was this guy who, you know, joked that i think he was from south carolina or north carolina. but it was officer who who joined this effort to fight back this mob on january 6th. and he said he's a lifelong republican. he's been born a republican. and then, you know, this was the one of the worst things that ever happened to him. and that's i think what you fundamentally got to remember, this was a really brutal attack that really had a heavy impact on a lot of a lot of officers. and i think that when you know the details of these cases, that's something that that i think a lot of fbi people who are going to if they're going to be targeted over this, i think, you know, will stand tall and say, you know, i did the right thing here. i worked the case as they should have been worked. >> christopher wray decided to resign before he was fired. he didn't wait for this day. but but you know, harry, just pick up on ryan reilly's reporting that this organization is disproportionately white, male and conservative compared to the general population. it was run

by a man who falls into that category, christopher wray, and he's being attacked by two men on fox news. i'm going to go out on a limb and say they fall into the category as well, all over a crime that happened on live tv and the investigation and successful prosecutions of defendants who pleaded guilty in most cases, what is really happening here in the erasure of the largest criminal investigation in doj history. >> so first, i do think you put your finger on it. this is all part of an elaborate obsession on trump's part to try to actually erase from the pages of history this terrible crime, not just against officers who, as you say, were terribly brutalized and, and, and some resulted in suicide, but really against the american people, it's the crime to try to keep the peaceful transfer of power from happening. and he's obsessed with trying somehow to just tear that page out of our

history books. and what ryan says and you say is true. it's well known in the doj that the fbi is sort of to the right of the career prosecutorial staff, and it's not surprising that many of them would have been sympathetic to trump at the time. the important thing we got to say is it doesn't matter. we always just as as whenever josh hawley or trump makes lies like that, you just have to point out it's a lie. of course, the prosecutions were righteous, and whatever color and political predilection and fbi agent had to actually do the job they were told to do, for that to be the cause of discharge is absolutely turns everything upside down. one quick point, patel. i totally agree with mike. the first thing i thought of. why are they doing this now? but one thing i will say is patel in his different kind of prevarications at the hearing said, well, this

will go through the doj and the white house. now, the white house has asserted its ability to, you know, meddle in specific prosecutions. but remember, this demand came from whom the deputy attorney general and who is trump's old personal lawyer. so that's something that the fbi is going to have to salute and follow, submit this whole list. and in a way, it's going to look like not just kash patel, but but also the new guard in town commanding this wave of retribution. and they've done it already in smaller fashion at the doj. it really, really stinks. again, it goes to the lifeblood of doj and fbi, but also it affects everyone, including in field offices, who are wondering, what's my job now? how can i stand up and do justice without fear or favor? >> i have to sneak in a break. >> i have to sneak in a break. we'll b [birds chirping] [dog growls] ♪♪

♪ who knows what tomorrow ♪ ♪ will bring ♪ [dog barking] ♪ maybe sunshine, ♪ [dog whining] ♪ and maybe rain ♪ ♪ but as for me ♪ ♪ i'll wait and see ♪ [knock at door] ♪ and maybe it'll bring my love to me ♪ ♪ who knows ♪ ♪ who knows ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ it's time to say, “not so fast, chronic kidney disease.” because with a progressive disease like ckd, slow is good. and believe me, i know all about slow. that's why i'm here to tell you about jardiance - it's a little pill... proven to slow the progression of ckd... and reduce the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine, which can be fatal. stop jardiance and call your doctor right away... if you have nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, trouble breathing, or increased ketones.

jardiance may cause dehydration that can suddenly worsen kidney function and make you feel dizzy, lightheaded, or weak upon standing. genital yeast infections in men and women, urinary tract infections,... low blood sugar, or a rare life-threatening... bacterial infection between and around the anus and genitals can occur. call your doctor right away if you have fever or feel weak or tired, and pain, tenderness, swelling or redness in the genital area. don't use if allergic to jardiance. stop use if you have a serious allergic reaction. call your doctor if you have rash, swelling, difficulty breathing or swallowing. you may have increased risk for lower limb loss. call your doctor right away if you have new pain or tenderness, sores, ulcers or infection in your legs or feet. so go on - say “not so fast ckd.” ask your doctor about jardiance for chronic kidney disease. too difficult, we are requesting your participation in a special program called the 30 day risk free challenge hearing life

hearing centers are seeking people with hearing difficulties to evaluate a new 100% digital mini hearing aid now being released. all people with hearing aids or hearing difficulties are wanted to take part in this 30 day risk free challenge. evaluating this new high tech device that sits discreetly behind your ear. this hearing aid is bluetooth enabled and rechargeable. all hearing assessments are performed at no charge. for those taking part in the challenge, participants will try these hearing aids for 30 days. now. to take part in this event, you must call. so please get a pencil and write down the number below. call us and take number below. call us and take the hearing watch your step! that's why visionworks makes it simple to schedule an eye exam that works for you. even if you have a big trip to plan around. thanks! i mean, i can see you right now if that's...convenient. visionworks. see the difference. to my son, i've never been the cool dad. i always wanted to know what he's up to online.

but with tiktok's privacy settings being on by default for teens under 16, accounts are set to private. he cannot send or receive dm's, and only his friends can comment. so he can post away, and i've got one less thing, to worry about. so, dad, how old do you have to be to get a tattoo? uh, um. teen safety settings on by default. ♪♪ that. that clip with josh hawley, who ran so fast it became a featured exhibit in the january 6th congressional hearings. what is the congressional angle in erasing a crime that ted cruz described as domestic terrorism? so mitch mcconnell essentially took to the floor of the senate and referred donald trump for criminal prosecution. i mean, i understand the political piece,

and i understand what ryan and harry are talking about, but these these members are on the record with many public statements. kevin mccarthy is another one. is there any sense inside the fbi that they have any allies on capitol hill anymore? >> i guess they do in the democrats, but the democrats don't control any of the committees. they don't really control any of the oversight or anything. and the fact that they're not in the majority. so they don't have i mean, they have rhetorical allies. but even at that, the democrats find themselves dealing with so many different issues in such a short period of time. a classic example this week of how trump just does a lot of different things, and it becomes all very distracting. for the democrats. they seemed on the freezing of the funds to have sort of they seem to have moved their messaging forward and were more on the attack and were more

aggressive. here we are talking about a completely different issue that's completely unrelated to that. there is a theme throughout all of it, which is the theme of retribution and of using the government for political aims in ways that we haven't seen in recent times. i think that's probably a harder thing for the democrats to articulate. certainly i haven't, you know, certainly it's something they've talked about, but i'm not sure how much that theme they've been able to get across. so i don't i don't really know when i see someone like josh hawley saying stuff like that. it certainly it looks just similar to a lot of things we see with trump, where his allies on capitol hill echo echo what, what what he wants to hear. it's that i think it's just that simple. >> it's that simple that it should never become normal. i mean, none of this is normal. and the rev i was i was thinking about the milly story. i mean, to mike's point, there's been a

lot the retribution was clearly it was the least popular thing trump publicly ran on. and it appears to be where the most energy has been spent since he got back to washington. but there is an opportunity for the democratic party to stand with general milley, to stand with chris wray, to stand with this workforce that is largely reporting white, male and conservative and say, we don't agree on a lot, but we agree in the truth. we agree on facts. we agree that the military should not be political, and we agree that the rule of law matters. >> and we agree that we should not live in a nation where the fbi is now under scrutiny for stopping people for rioting at the state, at the united states capitol, to try to stop an election. i mean, what are we talking about here? we're talking about them investigating people that physically assaulted law enforcement, and they're going to be punished for that. so now what are we saying? that next time we have violence, you

better hope that it's not for somebody who later may get elected. so don't go in so aggressively. i mean, what are we saying here? >> is that what we're saying? >> i guess that is what we're saying because we're acting like there is a reasonable case here for them to investigate. they're investigating people who were rioting. they're investigating people that were beating up law enforcement that put feces on the floor in the us capitol. you're investigating fbi guys for that. so god help the rest of us. i mean, it's not like we're looking for something that they shouldn't have been enforcing. so what is the investigation for? oh, it's because they were trying to stop the certification of a man who had lost an election, who later became a convicted felon, the 34 counts. so we've turned the whole world upside down. that's what the democrats ought to be saying. >> all right. from your lips, my thanks to everyone who scrambled their own jets to be on the air

with us. mike, harry, ryan and the rev. don't miss politics nation. this saturday, the rev has a special panel on how civil rights are also under attack by the new trump administration. that's tomorrow right here at 5 p.m. eastern. and still ahead for us. the president's overstuffed two weeks has certainly included a lot of stuff, stuff that has proven to be very, very politically unpopular with the general public. what happened with the things he was going to fix? and overnight, not so much. next, our deadline. white house starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> buying a car is kind of a big deal. how do you know if it's the right car for you? who would the most steal? ratings and complete vehicle history from complete vehicle history from car gurus. that's how. “the darkness of bipolar depression made me feel like i was losing interest in the things i love. then i found a chance to let in the lyte.” discover caplyta. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i,

caplyta is proven to deliver significant symptom relief from both bipolar i & ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. caplyta can cause serious side effects. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. anti-depressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. report fever, confusion, or stiff muscles, which may be life threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements which may be permanent. common side effects include sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, and dry mouth. these aren't all the side effects. in the darkness of bipolar i & ii depression, caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta. find savings and support at caplyta.com. >> muster a bigger hug than

that. >> and best. >> picture of the year. it's one >> picture of the year. it's one of the great american power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools make complex trading less complicated. custom scans can help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. ♪♪

i'm not happy with the way that pg&e handled the wildfires. yeah. yeah. i totally, totally understand. we're adding a ton of sensors. as soon as something comes in contact with the power line, it'll turn off so that there's not a risk that it's gonna fall to the ground and start a fire. okay. and i want you to be able to feel the improvements. we've been able to reduce wildfire risk from our equipment by over 90%. that's something i want to believe. [skateboard sounds] it's very simple word groceries like almost. you know who uses the word? i started using the word the groceries. when you buy apples, when you buy bacon, when you buy eggs, they will double and triple the price over a short period of time. and i won

an election based on that, we're going to bring those prices way down. >> that was then. hi again everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. later this hour. we'll hear from the ntsb when it holds a press conference on the latest details on the potomac air air crash. and we'll bring that to you when it starts. you can see there they're getting set up. we start the hour, though, as you just saw with politics and the promises you just heard donald trump make about what he calls the grocery, the groceries, apples, bacon. we know it was a promise, though, and an important one. it was a vow to get into the white house to win, and then to lower prices so that americans could afford their groceries. and yet and yet, in donald trump's first two weeks in office, he has not delivered on that promise. instead, what has come from trump 2.0 is the most unpopular gunk from his agenda, from pardoning the january 6th insurrectionists, including the violent ones who

assaulted police officers to firing more than a dozen independent government watchdogs, which is questionable with whether it's even legal to attempting to freeze all federal spending to politicizing tragedies that past presidents saw as opportunities to hold the whole country together, regardless of political ideology. and back to that promise about the grocery. i want to lower the price of eggs. everyone talked about so much. according to trading economics. com, which tracks commodity prices, eggs are currently at their highest price ever. it costs $7.09 per dozen eggs, a big fail on price of eggs. and we won't forget trump's own admission about prices. published in time magazine four days after he made that comment you heard at the top, he said this quote it's hard to bring things down once they're up, end quote. these last two weeks of

donald trump's second presidency have showcased a leader obsessed with getting revenge on his perceived enemies and appealing to the fraction of his base that was into that. even his own base was more into the egg thing. the groceries, according to recent polling, the retribution was not what a majority of americans wanted. 62% of all americans oppose pardoning the january 6th insurrectionists. 59% of all americans oppose changing the constitution to end birthright citizenship. 70% of all americans oppose deporting undocumented immigrants who have lived in this country for more than a decade, who pay taxes and have no criminal record. former obama senior adviser dan pfeiffer writes about all of this in his latest piece. he points out that trump is not as strong as he may seem or think. quote, donald trump is very bad at doing the job of president, but quite good at playing the role of president. his nonstop

barrage of executive orders and displays of power serve only to curate the image of political strength. while he lacks the strength itself, trump is a paper tiger with low approval ratings, making the classic mistake of overplaying his hand. in fact, pfeiffer points this out quote the only candidate in history with a lower incoming approval rating than trump in 2025. trump in 2017. the president's unpopular and anger fueled agenda is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. dan pfeiffer is here, co-host of pod save america, author of the political strategy newsletter message box. also joining us is mara gay, democratic strategist and professor at columbia university, msnbc political analyst basil smikle. here. we screwed up your title for a member of the new york times editorial board. like magic, the teleprompter switched mid-sentence. angelo carusone is also joining us. i believe in

progress. dan pfeiffer, i want to start with your great piece. i mean, it felt like this might be the case and it felt like democrats were maybe able to intuit that when trump shut down the government, all government funding. and i think a lot of people would have hoped that they intuited it before that moment, but it seemed to become crystal clear that they remembered why they were there. this is the other piece of it, right? that the things trump is focused on are not the things that propelled his victory. it's not the 87% that approved deporting people who were here illegally, who committed violent crimes. it is the mucky, unpopular trumpy stuff that he's focused on. >> that's absolutely right. he is. >> making the absolute. >> classic mistake of misinterpreting his mandate of overreaching, focusing on unpopular things. >> people who. >> elected him. right. and it really comes down to two groups of people. people who voted for joe biden in. 2016 or for joe. >> biden in 2020. >> and switched to trump.

>> 2024. >> and new trump voters. >> right? people who came out for the first time for trump. >> those voters, a significant. >> portion of them don't. >> love trump. they don't love his maga agenda. they don't consider themselves maga. they're not interested. >> in anything. >> other than him making their financial lives better. >> to. >> lower costs and. everything he does that. >> isn't that. >> stuff hurts him with those voters. and we have seen him make that mistake. and you quoted my piece, i. >> think it's very important. >> it's just donald trump is not popular. he's not strong. this should be the this will likely be the apex of his popularity. he's in his honeymoon. phase and he's under 50% in the polls. and i think democrats should use that as a sign of comfort and courage. >> let me read this. you tweeted this out during the first week of trump 2.0. too many elected democrats have been silent. they seem to be waiting for the exact right message. but if there is one lesson from the trump era, it is this when it comes to messaging, volume and frequency are vastly more important than precision. saying nothing is worse than saying the wrong thing. just get out there and start talking. no slogans, no jargon. just talk like a human being and talk about trump.

amen. i mean, the people that are doing it are doing it to great effect. i mean, chris, chris murphy sees what's in front of us, what we all see and has something to say about it. how do you infuse a party that i've come, i've come to learn is sort of a political refugee, ex republican, so earnest. the democratic party is so policy focused, so earnest, so, so sort of coalition focused. and trump is, is running like a political i don't even know the right word. but but it's, it's all in, in sort of chaos. and it feels like the democrats are taking a long time to get their ducks in a row while he's moving on to the next trespass. >> i think. >> my party has been we're disoriented and shook by what happened this election, because even after 2016, we believed we still had the political high ground because the majority of voters voted against trump. now he won the popular vote. he made gains in some of the lowest parts of the country, and people

are flummoxed and they are scared. they don't know what the message is. they don't know what to say about trump. they feel like what we have been saying about trump for the last nine years does not work anymore. and so there are so, you know, i think it also, democrats were obsessed with trying to find the perfect message, the exact right words that cause people to take their maga hats off or cause the swing voters to move to us in mass. and that's just not how the world has ever worked, and it's really not how it works. now it's get out there and talk, right? just be human, make your case and fight for attention. because if you're being silent, trump is winning. >> i totally agree with that. i mean, there's also this thing where we need to erect our own message delivery systems, and a few of them might be nice, but how about showing up on the ones that are there? i mean, democrats showing up and engaging where some ground was lost for democrats in the manosphere or among independent voters, seemed like like giving up. and i and i wonder what counsel you give democrats who want to know how to compete, how

to fight back. >> just get out there, start talking, talk like a human. don't use slogans, don't use acronyms, don't use jargon. and just you don't always have to talk about politics to. this is one thing that trump really understands is that politics is downstream from culture. right? get out there. if you can get one of the reasons you've been able to get on these podcasts is he's talking about things other than politics. his best moment in that joe rogan podcast is not talking about the 2020 election or deportation. it's when he's talking to joe rogan about ufc fighting, right. and mma, where he seems like a normal person. right. this is something your old boss did very well. my old boss, barack obama did very well is if you can talk about other things other than politics, you can relate to people as a human. people are going to be more willing to listen to your political message. >> i mean, it's so interesting you're saying that i had a conversation with kamala harris during covid, which was one of my favorite interviews that i did, where we were talking about what we were watching because everybody was home. she was watching. it was that weird guy that had all the tigers in his

house. what is it? what will it take to sort of get democrats off the mat and back, feeling the swagger and feeling like they're on offense? >> yeah, i think it's going to be we have to follow the lead of some people in our party who are very good at this. you mentioned chris murphy. >> okay. >> chris murphy is very good. aoc is excellent at this. she's probably best understands how to talk like a human and use new platforms to do it. gretchen whitmer has had good moments. there are people out there who can do this, but we just have to lose the fear of we have to lose. we have to walk away from risk aversion. like that is. >> what. >> is hampered. our path for the last many years is we're so afraid of having something blow up in our face that we will take no risks. you take no risks. you are just operating in a narrow band of outcomes between not failing and not really succeeding. >> i mean, it also feels like trump in the last ten days has given democrats all sorts of things to be for. that put him on the other side of the polls. you cite. i mean, if 70% of the country is opposed to

retribution, why don't democrats take their donor class and raise money to protect the lives of the people trump has threatened to kill by stripping their. i mean, mark milley is one of the people trump stripped security detail from pompeo and bolton. again, i think they spent more time on tv attacking joe biden and kamala harris than trump did. but joe biden was keeping them safe, keeping them protected, protecting their right to do that. i mean, is there an opportunity, again, not as a party that fights for 50 plus one, but a party that goes for the 70 over 30 issues? >> yeah, absolutely. just it's find ways to break through. right. like that is an interesting idea that occurred to me is help protect these people, find things that just will get attention. right. some of them may be controversial, and that's good, right? controversy and conflict is what drives this media environment. and so be out. just be out there and do stuff. it sounds so simple and i and it's partly because we don't have all the answers yet. like we haven't figured. i don't have all the answers for why kamala harris lost what all the right things

we need to do to rebuild our coalition is, but we sort of can't wait for those answers. right now we have to two track it where we're doing stuff, when we're opposing trump and we're being aggressive and we're being authentic, while we're also digging in and asking the hard questions of our party about what went wrong and what we have to change going forward. >> it's such a good point. i mean, and not i also feel like democrats act like everything went wrong. i mean, she lost by half a percentage point at a time when the world was tossing out everyone that was in charge of anything, anywhere near the steering wheel post covid. and after being vp to someone, again, very accomplished, but who was very politically unpopular. i wonder, dan pfeiffer, if you can take me inside the conversations about immigration. i mean, a obama deported more people in the country illegally who had committed violent crimes. then i would wager donald trump will ever succeed in doing, even though he believes that is why he was reelected. how do you teach democrats, or how do you move democrats to being at least where obama was on an issue that proved very politically salient?

>> i think. >> that one of the fundamental mistakes that our party made from a political messaging perspective on immigration over the course of the biden years and in the 2024 campaign, was we allowed republicans to isolate the issue to only around border security. right. what were you going to do at the border? where are we going to do about the migrants coming here? and we lost where we've had advantage when it is a more holistic conversation about, yes, we absolutely have to secure the border. we have to be tough on border security. we have to get criminals out of here. we have to protect the country. but what are you going to do about the people in the polling site who've been in this country for ten years or more, who are married to american citizens, who have children, who are american citizens, who've been paying taxes, abiding by the law. when you have that conversation, you actually get to 60% of the public. and even what you do most importantly is you divide the republican party in half. just look at the fight that steve bannon and elon musk had over the h-1b visa program, one of the least controversial programs in the entire immigration system. and so, if you can get back to that messaging that was bipartisan

earlier in this generation and was earlier in this century and was part of how obama talked about it, and it is about securing the border, but also reforming immigration, then that's a conversation we can win. it's one where we're much more comfortable than trying to out tough donald trump on the border. >> i mean, apples to apples. the last republican president before donald trump was my old boss, george w bush. he didn't believe in deporting people who were in this country illegally, had been here, had had families here. he believed in putting them at the end of the line. but he believed after nine over 11 that pushing them in the shadows, which is what any mass deportation program would do, was, was both inhumane, un-american and a national security threat. and you're right about about the issue dividing republicans. i mean, if you are influenced by small business or by the chamber of commerce, trump's mass deportation plan is a disaster. what do you do, though, to eliminate the fear factor? republicans are so scared of trump. they are. they look like they may go along with rfk, who

represent i was a republican. there is nothing republican about him from from the handing heroin to his family members to i mean, i mean, how do you how do you reach the republicans if you're a democrat and, you know, they agree with you? >> well, we're not going to, you know, how do you reach congressional republicans or senate republicans? that's going to be very hard. there's only a small what's that? >> or governors. >> or governors. there's just this is that we live in a very polarized society. donald trump has firm control of this party. what i would think is, instead of trying to persuade individual republicans like, if you can get susan collins's vote or mitch mcconnell's vote or thom tillis vote, or someone to seek one of these nominees, we should do that. if we can find use them to block the worst parts of trump's agenda. we should do that. the way you get more republican votes is you make donald trump less popular, right? that is the singular task of the democratic party. is that donald trump, at 47%, where he is in the in the gallup poll right now, he can get all the republican votes. donald trump at 38%, all those

house members who are in purple districts are going to start thinking differently about whether they follow him down the path. and so as opposed to like a whole bunch of events where you invite people over for drinks or we play golf with them, we can do all that to make donald trump less popular. more republicans will will walk away from him. >> let me play some of what to me look like democrats trying to do that. dems on offense. >> this is what a king does. this is not how a democracy works. one man does not decide how taxpayers money is spent so that it only gets sent to the president's political friends, and it gets used to punish his political enemies. >> i want to play a little game. >> with you. >> it's called rhetoric versus reality. >> and so i want. >> to ask you my first question. is this rhetoric or reality? immigrants commit more crimes than u.s. citizens. >> on a on a per capita basis.

>> rhetoric or reality? >> oh, it. >> it is rhetoric. >> i believe. >> that we need to be a party of brawlers for the working class. >> what donald trump tried to do in the last 24 hours is illegal. let's be clear. this is a demonstration of cruelty against people who depend on us. >> the paper that was there actually was more. this was the week, in my view, that democrats got themselves back on offense on a couple of issues, but i, i, i wonder if you see the message starting to impact the numbers or if it's too early to tell. >> i think it's too early to tell. the voters are going to give trump a sort of a wide swath here early on. every president has a honeymoon period that extends for at least a few months. i imagine trump's will be shorter than most, but i think when you get through, you sort of boil down what you heard from all of those very good comments from democrats. our

task, the message that we want to deliver is that trump is not on voters side, right? what they ultimately they held their nose. a lot of these voters held their nose and voted for him because they thought that he would fight for them. they they're mad about politics. they're mad about the price of groceries and gas and housing. they think the current administration, the previous administration and the system itself had failed them. and so our job is to convince people that he is not on their side. and when he is hanging out with billionaires like elon musk and mark zuckerberg and all that, he's got 13 or whatever it is, billionaires in his cabinet, that's the beginnings of the argument to make that he's not on their side. >> all right. no one's going anywhere. we'll bring everyone else in on the other side, and we'll have more reporting on donald trump's first two weeks in office. it has been two weeks. we made it. and how this response importantly to the tragedy this week over the potomac is unprecedented in terms of how his predecessors responded to a national tragedy. we're still waiting. news from the ntsb officials. they will hold a press conference on the crash of the potomac later in this hour deadline. white house

this hour deadline. white house con(man 1) we're standing up for our right to be lazy. (woman 1) by sitting down. (man 2) and reclining back. (woman 2) we work full-time and parent full-time. (man 3) we will be reclined until further notice. (woman 3) it's our right to let the dishes soak overnight. (man 4) and to mow the lawn... tomorrow-ish. (man 5) we proudly declare that yes, we are still watching that. (woman 4) and no, we won't be cooking tonight. (man 6) we, the lazy, are taking back lazy... (woman 5) ...by getting comfy on our la-z-boy furniture. (vo) la-z-boy. long live the lazy. a chewy order is on the way for radar — who knows that sounds means... kibble... squeaky toy... ...and birdseed. delivered fast — at prices everyone loves. for low prices. for life with pets, there's chewy (vo 1) when you really philosophize about it, there's one thing you don't have enough of, and that's time. time is a truly scarce commodity. when you come to that realization, i think it's very important to spend time wisely.

and what better way of spending time than traveling, continuing to educate ourselves and broaden our minds. (vo 2) viking. exploring the world in comfort. watch your step! that's why visionworks makes it simple to schedule an eye exam that works for you. even if you have a big trip to plan around. thanks! i mean, i can see you right now if that's...convenient. visionworks. see the difference. tap into etsy for original and affordable home and style pieces like like lighting under 150 dollars to brighten your vibe. for under 100 dollars, put your best look forward with vintage jackets. or pick up custom shelving for under 50 to make space without emptying your pockets. and get cozy with linen robes for 75 or less. for affordable home and style finds to help you welcome whatever's next, etsy has it.

dude, i really need a new phone. check out my new samsung galaxy s25 ultra. it's got galaxy ai. imagine this thing running on our superfast xfinity mobile network. and i also heard that it can do multiple things with a single command. —with google gemini. let me try it. add recipes with overripe bananas to my “dessert ideas” note. that's what you chose to ask it? i had other things planned. ask how to get up to one thousand dollars off the new samsung galaxy s25 ultra with xfinity mobile.

granger for the ones who get it done. >> the big lie is that there was some concerted plan into the capitol. this wasn't. >> stuart was becoming increasingly unstable. >> people are gravitating to him like a son. i bet everything on him being locked away forever. >> today is a day for mourning and remembering. nancy and i are pained to the core by the tragedy of the shuttle challenger. we know we share this pain with all of the people of our country. this is truly a national loss. >> let me. >> again ask every american not to jump to conclusions. >> our responsibility now. >> as americans. >> is to pull. >> together and. >> work together to solve the problems of tragedies like twa flight 800. >> the new york people have suffered mightily. >> they suffer again. >> but there's no.

>> doubt in. my mind that. >> the new. >> yorkers are. >> resilient and. strong and courageous people. >> tragic events such as these remind us of the fragility of life and the value of every single day. >> in times of tragedy, such as a plane crash or a shuttle crash, explosion, past american presidents have viewed it as part of their job to speak to the nation's grief and to harness all of the compassion and political restraint they can muster. the message from our current president yesterday, when faced with the worst u.s. commercial plane crash in nearly 16 years, started off that way. we'll give him credit for that. but it quickly devolved into something unprecedented. >> of terrible proportions. as one nation, we grieve for every precious soul that has been taken from us so suddenly, and

we are a country of really, we are in mourning. i put safety first. obama, biden and the democrats put policy first. secretary pete buttigieg a real winner. that's the guy who's a real winner. he ran his city into the ground and he's a disaster now. he's just got a good line of the faa says people with severe disabilities are the most underrepresented segment of the workforce, and they want them in and they want them. they can be air traffic controllers. i don't think so. they put a big push to put diversity into the faa's program. they actually came out with a directive to white. and we want the people that are competent. i'm trying to figure out how. >> you can come to the conclusion right now that diversity had something to do with this crash. >> because they have common sense, okay. and unfortunately, a lot of people don't. we want brilliant people doing this. this is basil.

>> there are there. >> are some. >> people who would. >> say that even if you don't agree with what he said, that it's right. >> to tackle the guy. or maybe it should go away because we've come far enough that maybe we don't need it. but the way donald trump talks about it, he might as well be saying the n word and the way he talks about it. i wonder what he says in private, frankly, or what anybody else who attacks the guy in the way that he does, using the language that he does, says it in private. he uses it as a sieve, as a filter to say, these folks, my friends, these wealthy people, my cronies should get all those jobs and be involved in all of these opportunities. whereas the coarseness among the rest of the population, those that look like me, those that sound like me, people of color need to stay in their servile roles. that's what that does.

and one of the things that i think has to be discussed and is being discussed, but it's important to note that a lot. if you are poor and white in this country, that doesn't mean that you now have an opportunity and an advantage because dei is being pushed away and actually is worse because what he's saying is, we've sold you this false hope. we've projected all of your anger and frustration and potential economic distress on other people. we're going to get rid of them, but that doesn't mean we're going to give you a leg up. it actually means that me and my friends have more for ourselves. that is that is the sort of fallacy that he puts over the american people. trickle down economics has only worked one time or in one instance. and that's when racism is layered in. when that racism trickles down, that's when it works. and that's what that's exactly what he's doing right now. and just to kind of attach that to the conversation about democrats earlier, i get some of

the criticism, but i really think it's important that we look at the other side of the equation. why did a good chunk, almost half to a little more than half this country, in spite of his racism, in spite of his sexism, decide that they wanted to vote for him anyway, even if they do not consider themselves racist or sexist, they're willing to overlook some of that for their personal interests. and that, i think, is what? not only are democrats wrestling, we all have to wrestle with that. the country has moved further in that direction, and that gives him the opportunity and the platform to use language like that. even in situations where you're supposed to be bringing people together. and he decides, no, you know what? i'm going to still use this hammer because everybody that i don't like looks like a nail. >> so much. so no, i, i, i'm processing because i think it might be the most important thing to sort of. right, like,

like take in and it might be the necessary filter. right. but i think just to tie what basil and dan have both said, and you guys will tell me if angela is here. it is also very unpopular. and so the more unpopular it is, i mean, the reason the past presidents responded that way is because they were human, and it was because they could imagine the horror of their children being on that flight. and the reason trump responded the way he did is because he's not like them. right? because that wasn't like they weren't they didn't go out there and say what they said when the challenger exploded or the or the flight. i mean, none of them had to be told what they should say, right? people worked on speeches, but that was that was what they wanted to do, which was comfort the nation. >> there's no question. >> that he has reacted. >> as someone who. >> has no. >> empathy whatsoever. >> but one of the things that's interesting to me about this. moment is. that donald trump has surrounded. >> himself, both with oligarchs

and. individuals from. the heritage foundation, neither of whom represent the average american voter of either party, who have come to washington to destroy government. what is one of the central jobs of government to protect citizens of the united states? the faa? that is a central role of government. no american, no matter what your political party wants to get on an airplane today and say, well, gee, i hope i arrive safely, right? why do they arrive safely? because the faa is one of the government agencies in this country that, over time, has done an extraordinary job better than anyone else in the world at preventing air tragedies. they have had a lot of trouble in the past ten years over multiple presidencies. they need help. they need investment. they don't need to be dismantled. and so that actually is what's happening behind the scenes. now, donald trump is the

president of the united states. he is in charge of the faa. so the buck stops with him. so what we saw was somebody in charge who not only was unable and incapable of expressing empathy, but he can't take any responsibility. this is his own agency. he owns this. what he could have said in an alternate universe is this is tragic. my heart goes out to these families. we're going to make sure that this never happens again. what did he do instead? he scapegoated women, people with disabilities and black people. and i think we should really get away from this. language has lost its meaning in this context. he wasn't blaming die policies. to basil's point. he was blaming black people and people with disabilities. that is dark, that is dangerous, and that is not what the american people elected him to do. so we should talk about what he's actually saying and doing. >> and just to make a quick point, because you talked about

government and what government is supposed to do, it's a very important point, because the government also realizes that it can't do everything. so what it does is actually help support a voluntary sector, a nonprofit sector and philanthropy. we have one of the most robust nonprofit sectors in the world. and so when he creates these orders to say, i'm going to cut your funding, i'm involved with an organization that provides healthy foods to school kids, $6 million potentially gone in in that effort. so to your point, you know, government is supposed to care for everybody regardless of race, color, creed, right? but when it realizes that it can't do something, that it there's a gap that needs to be filled. it at least gives people the opportunity to help fill that gap. and what we see with this president is this is a chest out saying, you know what? i don't care about any one of you. >> yeah, i want to bring angelo in because i think the revelation of angelo's body, of understanding about what was put to paper is that nothing was

held sacred. there were no agencies that were going to be spared from project 2025. reimagining. >> that's right. >> and i think. >> that. >> this is where my time. >> is. >> i think. >> i think dan said. >> something in the first segment. >> about. >> how the unpopularity. >> of it all should give democrats comfort and courage, and i agree with that, and i'll close on that. >> but i want to give a cautionary note, too, because, as you noted, they wrote it all down. and part of this is it was not just an intentional strategy, but also vote right after the election, even talked about the fact that that a lot of the things that they do in the first initial months of trump's administration are going to be wildly unpopular, and that they are looking specifically for people that can ignore the noise and ignore the unpopularity to drive forward with their agenda. and the reason why is because their agenda is fundamentally undemocratic. and so that's the real word of caution and concern here. and the other piece, and you sort of got to the first segment too, is the information asymmetry. i mean, if you just look at sort of the monthly listings of podcasts, left

aligned and left leaning versus right aligned and right leaning, you have about 60 million downloads, listens of left leaning, left aligned. you have 300 million for right and right aligned. and that's a very small universe. but that gives them a head start. and so that gives them the ability to take these unpopular moments and keep driving through help, you know, block. and we shouldn't lose sight of that, that this is by design. this is intentional. this is a feature. so we can't feed into the infancy. and here's where the note of comfort and courage comes in. and you sort of got to this too, which is think about that imbalance. think about how wild that imbalance is. and that's only one data point. and yet it was still so close to all of the popular. and that's the thing. and that's not a wild eyed optimist here. but my point is, is that we shouldn't we should stand firm in the recognition that and acknowledge that they are going to be driving undemocratic things. and what we can't do is duck and cover or worse, validate the projection of power, the perception of power that they're executing right now. otherwise that will make it a reality. >> yeah. and i guess, dan, just to bring it all back, the person

who knows that is donald trump. because if that was not true, donald trump wouldn't have distanced himself from project 2025. if that was not true, donald trump wouldn't have been like, oh, jd vance, i don't know. i just picked him. i mean, donald trump for all the flaws, does have a sense of the things he's doing that are wildly unpopular. and i guess just to pick up on on every point that's been made, how does that get put back into the information ecosystem in a way that's more appealing and feels like and looks like offense. >> so a couple things. this one is i think we ought to tell people that it's unpopular because there is a wisdom of crowds situation here where people think it's popular. they're going to be for it if they think it's unpopular. and there and there's there is comfort in other people agreeing with you on this and driving trump's numbers down is, well, as i mentioned earlier, will affect republicans but also affect donald trump. yes. a judge issued a temporary restraining order to or a

temporary injunction to stop the funding freeze. but the next person who pulled it back even after that was donald trump, because he didn't like the press and he realized it would be unpopular. so creating controversy, making it seem messy, right? finding the tallest mountain we can and screaming as loud as we can about all the chaos, all the flaws, all the incompetence is going to make it seem, make it seem messy to americans because donald trump said he was going to. he was going to make everything seem great and strong and stable. it's also going to make it seem messy to donald trump, and i think there is value in that as well. >> i guess. angela, i come back to you quickly. it's not making anything seem messy. it is messy, right? i mean. >> that is. >> the plan. >> yes, that is part of it. they are going to break as many things as they possibly can. and that's the that's the trap. we have to be careful not to fall into because we can't fall into is we have to point out all these flaws while simultaneously not seemingly defending a status quo and, and some of the norms that everybody hates. and that's the sort of trap that i think sometimes democrats wrap themselves into. they say, well,

i have to eat all of this dog food. it's like, no, you don't. you can be a change agent to their change agents. and most of what they're doing is breaking it with incompetence and malevolence. but you can be a change agent. and i think that's the balancing act. but i could not agree more. we have to call it out. we have to name it first, stiffen our spines. >> i feel like i need a lot of this conversation. please. to be continued. right now we're going to listen in to the ntsb, which is providing an update on the investigation. into the midair collision. >> board member on. >> scene, and will be briefing tonight. >> where we're at in the investigation in regard to the crash. accident with the sikorsky helicopter. let me just start with, as usual, our hearts go out to all the families of the victims. in fact, i just spent the last several hours with them before we came here. and i apologize that we had to move this back. but they are one of our primary concerns. along with making sure we get factual information out. they are having a very it's a hard time for them. obviously, we want to do

everything we can to make sure they get the most accurate information and factual, and has always been at the core of the ntsb mission. our job is to come out with the probable cause, but then more importantly, make recommendations so that this type of tragedy never occurs again. so today, i know yesterday you saw the chairman, myself and all the board members here. i just want to let you know they are still actively involved with this. we're just trying to make sure we're dividing and conquering. the chairman and i have had multiple conversations today. she's helped out a lot in making sure we're getting the investigative needs we have, and she's at the command post right now working with some of our people. i'd like to start by just thanking the first responders when this first happened, a unified command was set up, and we had a lot of important people that came and worked with us in

virginia, the fairfax county fire and rescue, fairfax county fire and rescue department, arlington county fire and rescue, arlington county emergency management, arlington police, alexandria city fire, alexandria police, virginia state police, the ncr incident management team, the virginia department of emergency management, the virginia department of transportation, the virginia senator warner's office, fire and rescue team, ny police a special shout out to every one of them has been amazing in helping and working with us, and we're truly appreciative, along with d.c. fire and rescue. just extraordinary. taking the lead, prince william fire and rescue in maryland, the montgomery fire and rescue, prince george's fire and rescue, charles county fire and rescue, baltimore fire, baltimore police and arundel fire department, maryland state police, maryland natural resource police, mpd, dcfd, and

from the federal side, the us coast guard, us army, us air force, fbi secret service, customs and border patrol, park police, dod, naval district, washington, american medical response, and yes, the us department of labor. all of those have been amazing partners. the reasons why that this investigation continues to progress the way we want it to. as i said, we did family briefings last night and today there are over 100 family members that are now in the area receiving briefings and as part of a legislative requirement, receiving family assistance. they have been briefed by the medical examiner, the fire chief, ntsb chairman and myself, along with the family assistance unit from psa airlines. in regard to ntsb staff. all staff are now on scene that have been requested, and i want to point

out one specific staff member, because we're doing a joint ntsb and dod investigation. the ntsb actually has a blackhawk certified pilot on staff, on our personal staff based out of alaska. once we realized the dynamics and the intricacies of the blackhawk, we have brought that member in and they are on scene now providing direct technical assistance to the ntsb. that does not mean that the dod is not working and helping with this, but in order to maintain our independence, we have our own blackhawk certified pilot in the working group for helicopters. regarding salvage at this point, the navy supervisor of salvage is conducting salvage operations. at the current time. barges are in route from virginia beach and we anticipate them to be on scene early tomorrow morning. after their arrival, they will

be secured and located, and then significant salvage operations will continue. they are ongoing right now, but this will be the main lifting. it's being done in conjunction with the dc medical examiner's office in order to make sure simultaneously, that any additional victims are recovered and immediately turned over to them for identification and return to their families. soup south, which is the supervisor of salvage, is also conducting a debris mapping right now. this will help in our post-accident analysis of how the machine actually reacted to the incident. it will also help us with understanding some of the airworthiness and crashworthiness and human factors we have right now. two distinct debris fields, one that houses the sikorsky, which is a

in comparison to the crash, a little bit smaller to the crash is in another distinct area, and we consider a little bit larger. the good news is based upon the initial mapping, while there are some small aspects of that debris field, there are large chunks that will be easily recoverable and it will aid in the investigation when we bring it into the secured facility that will be located here on moya, that will help us in the close proximity to be able to review and evaluate. yesterday we outlined for you a number of groups that have been stood up, a few of them in particular, i want to call out, although every one of them have been working very hard for your edification, the atc group air traffic control has been conducting interviews today. they're ongoing tonight. they will be ongoing for probably the next few days. we've had full

cooperation in getting the witnesses that we need to gain those interviews. we will then take that information and match it with other data that we're receiving and if necessary, conduct follow up interviews at a later time. our operations group now has on site an exemplar airplane similar to the crj 700. it's on a hard stand here at noaa. they will use that to evaluate cockpit configuration, seating, things like that. so whenever the salvage comes up, we're able to use an exemplary aircraft to match it against examples such as where maybe switches are navigational aids, electronics. it is almost the exact same configuration as the incident aircraft. i want to clarify one thing. there's been a lot of questions and discussion regarding manifest. let me make this very clear. the ntsb will

not and has not released a manifest. we have not in our history, not in our past. we will not be in this accident. in fact, there are specific congressional language that whenever it is in our possession, it is not available through the freedom of information act. it will not be included in our report. we will not be putting any names of any of the victims, any release of that information will come from other individuals or groups. regarding the reporters. as many of you saw last night, we recovered from the crash. two separate recorders. one was a f d f r. that is a flight data. recorder 50 that was actually in

what we consider good condition. as part of that process, it was soaked in alcohol overnight. it was then opened today, and we have a high level of confidence that we will be able to get a full download in the very near future. now, once we do have that download, we will not be releasing immediately the information regarding it. we will have to go through, correct the data sets, make sure they're synchronized. this has approximately roughly up to possibly 2000 data points. so right. so all of that has to be synchronized and looked at. it's a very laborious practice. it takes a lot of time. regarding the crjs cockpit voice recorder. once it was recovered and opened we found that it had water intrusion. that is not uncommon.

it is not an unusual event for us to receive a recorder with water intrusion. we deal with that all the time. our recorder division is one of the best in the country. in the world, actually, we have a quarter sent everywhere. so there's a step. the cvr was soaked overnight and ionized water, at which point the team put the cvr into a vacuum oven in order to extract moisture. they are still checking electrical connections to determine if they're ready to try a download. it is one step of many steps that we will take in order to get that data, but we have a very high level of confidence that we will have it. we just have to work through a number of steps. lastly, on reporters, the sikorsky, where the crj has two separate recorders, the sikorsky has a combined cockpit voice recorder

and digital flight data recorder. it's in one box. i can report to you now. we have recovered the sikorsky black box. it is safely at the ntsb headquarters. it will begin an evaluation just as the other two recorders did last night. to determine when and how to take action. i can tell you from a visual inspection, we saw no exterior damage that would indicate that it was compromised at this time. so we have a high level of confidence that we will be able to have a full extraction from that as well. those are some of the significant updates we have right now. obviously, we'll be doing some more in the essence of time and making sure our team gets back. i think we're going to be able to take maybe 4 or 5 questions. i'll call on you and i'll repeat it. so we'll try to play that game a little bit please. right here. thank you very much. your name and outlet

please. jonathan curtis from channel. nine australia. >> i'm captain. >> sully sullivan, one of. >> the heroes. of the incident on the hudson has said that. >> he has said we. >> absolutely should be reviewing airspace, not just here, but in other places where there's a complex mix of traffic. is he right? is there time for a permanent shift in dc and across the country to keep airspace safe, separated between military and civilian aircraft? >> so the question for those watching, is it this time now for us to possibly deconflict or change some of the airspace where military aircraft operate with commercial aircraft? i can't give you a definitive answer on that. what i can say is in this incident, it should not have happened. we have an aviation what's called a swiss cheese approach, wherein if something fails, a backup should catch it. multiple layers of redundancy. it's been a very

long time since we've had a major aviation incident in the united states, and that's the reason why it's one of the safest forms of transportation in the country. but the only way they do that is by investigating what happens now and then making recommendations in the future. again, the ntsb is made on 100,000 aviation investigations. we've issued 15,000 recommendations. over 84% have been accepted. once this investigative report comes out, we will be advocating probably for years for changes that need to be made, but we will not speculate on what needs to be done until we have the facts right. is there anything obvious? hey, i'll call on people. sorry. >> can you talk about how long you think it will take to recover the debris? how long you plan to be on site, and have you got any early data yet off the agency takes? >> i think that was 3 or 4 together. how long the debris will take? how long will it be

on site, and have we gotten any information off of the air traffic control tapes, the debris? we are hopeful once the mapping is done, that it will be done in what i would call quick order. i can make no guarantees of that because first and foremost, we need to make every effort and to make sure we're recovering. every one of the people that perished in this accident, we'll have some cranes that will be coming up. and once that happens, you'll see a lot more activity and we'll be moving that in. but i don't want to give you a definitive time. i would say it will start in earnest probably on sunday, and it will go through next week. and some of that's contingent upon weather and other things. regarding the atc tapes, we've received a lot of different information on atc, and so i'm going to let people i'm just going to preempt it off the shelf. software programs are not always as accurate as the data we specifically get from ads-b. from the black boxes. all of that are factors that come into

our investigation. so we will not speculate about atc tapes that you may have heard and seen online or snippets. we are getting the full cooperation that we need to be able to make an accurate assessment and to make sure what we are saying is factual, and that it will help and aid in the entire investigation. keith cooper from. >> channel. >> seven in boston. >> is there anything. >> glaring from the videos that we've all seen. >> that would. tell you that the pilot. >> in. >> the black hawk helicopter. >> made a mistake? >> the question is, based on the videos, have we draw any conclusions? we have not. we know that there is a significant incident in which the two aircraft collided. a pretty significant fireball, if you will recall, even after the first day, we only had maybe 1 or 2 grainy images that were coming out. we're seeing more and more at this time, so we're still collecting data, but we are not going to opine until we

see a lot of other things in there, a couple more. yes, sir. >> with cnn, how critical is it to interview the controller and the tower cam? how concerning is it to you, the reports that that controller is working two positions at the same time? >> so the question was how critical are the air traffic control interviews? and basically staffing. so air traffic control interviews are critical. that's the reason why there's a process in place that began immediately after the accident. it was preservation of that evidence. it was immediately taking down notes, getting logs, all that information. we will go back and look at any air traffic controller that was involved in this. we'll go back and look at their past, probably 72 hours, even 2 or 3 weeks. we'll look at their training, their hiring, everything, what they probably ate that day. but it is not one point that tells us everything. it's layered into a lot of other

information that's very critical regarding staffing. the faa has had a very robust plan in looking at staffing. obviously, we'll be looking at not only staffing that day, but progressively staffing. how many people, what job functions they were doing, were they being combined, were they not? what was the weather outside, what was the number of landings? i recall back during covid one runway was being used, runway one. that was the only 133 is traffic came back, started being opened up. so we would look at changes in traffic patterns, construction at the airport, all of that. it all paints a very big picture. >> i'll just follow up. >> on that. who are you? sorry. >> sorry, bob. >> investigators interviewed air. >> traffic. >> controllers at the. >> the question is, have we interviewed air traffic controllers? yes, i think i started with. sorry, i'm sorry. clarification. was it an air traffic controller that was working at the time of the

accident? yes. yes, sir. now, i'm not going to speculate. sorry. no, sorry. i'm not going to speculate. the next question is, was there one, two, three? i don't have the answer for that right now. i know that the controller that was working at the time has been interviewed, and his interviews are ongoing throughout the day. yes, ma'am. last one. >> cnbc has president trump reached out to you personally or anyone else from the white house to you or anyone else on the board? and if so, can you describe the nature of those communications? >> the question is, is anyone from the white house reached out to me or other board members? i won't speak for other board members. i know that the chair did a briefing yesterday. it was publicly discussed and gave some information. i have not received any contact. i'm going to go back to something we talked about earlier. the ntsb is an independent, bipartisan board. 58 years as the gold standard. our job is to find the facts. but more importantly, our job is

to make sure this tragedy doesn't happen again, regardless of what anyone may be saying, our investigators never want to see this happen again, and i never want to have to go back and brief another set of family like that. thank you. >> thank you very much. president trump was. >> job is to find the facts. let's bring into our conversation msnbc aviation analyst john cox. he's a former airline pilot and ceo of safety operating systems. also back with us is former ntsb board member kitty higgins. both were watching along with us. john cox, i start with you. your reaction to what we just heard. >> this was a very typical ntsb second. day brief. they they articulated they're. >> gathering evidence. >> they have. >> a plan. >> they're bringing. >> up barges. >> but they. >> are not going to speculate. >> and that's exactly. >> what. >> they should. >> be be following. that's the. worldwide standard.

>> don't speculate. stay with the facts. >> that's what ntsb. >> did tonight. >> kitty, your thoughts to what we just heard. >> well, i have to agree with john, but i also want to say i it makes me very proud to have worked for that organization. i mean, they are the most incredible people in terms of the attention to detail and the expertise. i mean, the fact that there's a black hawk helicopter operator in alaska that's on the staff that they're bringing in, shows you the kind of links, literally that we go to, they go to make sure we can get as much help as we need in these situations. so i think i would also say that everybody needs to be patient because there is a lot to look at here. i think you heard whether it's the interviews with the air traffic controllers, it's the collection and reports from the data. whatever it is, it's going to take a while to put all those pieces of that puzzle together. and i would just urge everybody

to take the information you've got and understand the process and not to speculate, because that is not fair to the to anybody involved, certainly the investigators, but also to the families. so. >> well, yeah. kitty, i was going to ask you about that. i mean, it is clear that the mission is the mission and it's in pursuit of the facts. the big headline there on the investigation seems to be that we as a public, are learning for the first time that the black box from the helicopter has now been recovered. we had heard that the black box from the passenger jet had been we just learned as a public that it had also been recovered from the black hawk helicopter. but it is so clear that that that the mission and the organization and the facts drive the process. but the families are the mission. and just to hear just i mean, you know, it, you imagine it, but just to hear how front of mind, the families and the conversations they have to have with families is, is to the investigation, is it just brings

you back to exactly what government is supposed to do, what you would hope it would do. katie. >> you're so right. and nicole, it's just it's the hardest part of the job. but in many ways it's the most gratifying because you can help them. and through this, the family assistance program, help them accept the information, deal with it as best they can, and then just be there for them. and that's what we all want to see for our own families. and that's what the ntsb does in accidents like these. and unfortunately, we've had enough a lot of experience doing it. >> john. it is it is a standard that, that, that they hold themselves to. it is not the standard that the president of united states has held himself to over the last 24 hours. is it weird to see them having to respond to speculation that's been made from the podium of the white house briefing room? >> it's very, very unusual.

>> there's a worldwide standard about how accident aircraft accidents are. >> handled. >> the methodology, who says what, and it all deals around the facts. and they all the government officials in any government anywhere, they basically need to step back and let the professional investigators do their job when that doesn't happen. and there is speculation, particularly in the early hours, there are accusations or allegations against a crew, an air traffic controller. all this does is add confusion unnecessarily to the process. and it also it shows the world that we're not abiding by the worldwide standard that is set up through the international civil aviation organization. >> that might be the most stunning thing i've heard in the ten days of this new administration. thank you so much for sharing that with us. john cox and katie higgins. thank you, basil