hannah-jones. we did correct it at the time, but that was our error. i am going to post a link to his article. this our second nadir on all my social media accounts, and we're grateful to him for writing such a thoughtful article. that does it for me. thank you for watching. catch me back here every saturday and sunday morning from 10 a.m. to noon eastern, and follow me on threads, blue sky, linkedin, and mastodon where i post daily inside with jen psaki begins right now. >> okay everyone, i'm just going to acknowledge from the outset here that there is a lot of stuff happening right now that may feel confusing, scary, like you have a lot of questions. i mean, donald trump's plans to essentially unravel the federal government and basically gut our law enforcement agencies that's unfolding before our eyes. a federal funding freeze earlier this week shook communities in

every corner of the country. maybe yours too. elon musk and his cronies just gained access to the entire federal payment system, which everybody should be paying attention to. trump just fired the first shots in a trade war yesterday. that he admitted this morning will cause pain for american consumers, and confirmation hearings this week further exposed just how dangerous some of his picks are to lead government agencies. it is a lot. i get it. but i want to underscore something that i think is really important for all of you to remember, and that is trump and his team really do think that all of this is inevitable, that they will be able to do all of this without pushback, but they won't. they think they will. all just that we, all of us will just stand by. eyes glazed over and not even bother to question and to understand what they are doing. but we're not. we won't. it's such a cliche, but knowledge really is power in this moment. understanding and questioning and learning is power in this

moment. so today we're going to try our best to explain this stuff with some very smart people. i am so happy we're able to talk to us today. senator amy klobuchar had some of the sharpest questioning of kash patel during his confirmation hearing for fbi director. she's going to be here today. senator maggie hassan pretty much left the room speechless during rfk jr. s hearing she's going to join us as well. and congressman jamie raskin is here in studio to talk about trump's unprecedented purge of the department of justice and the fbi. and that story is where we're going to start today, because late friday night, we learned that trump administration officials forced out a number of the fbi's most senior executives and multiple heads of the bureau's field offices all across the country. now, that included the leader of the field office here in washington, d.c, the office, of course, that investigated donald trump. at the same time, the doj fired nearly two dozen federal prosecutors who investigated the january 6th insurrectionists. and remember, all of this comes after a dozen officials who

worked with special counsel jack smith were fired just last monday, as in six days ago. so i think it's pretty clear what's going on here. i think you all know what's going on here. and this latest round of political retaliation against federal law enforcement is already staggering. all of that, i just said. but here's the thing. it could get much worse. and we have to pay attention to that. the acting deputy attorney general also asked for a list of all fbi employees involved in january, six cases for a, quote, review process to determine whether any additional personnel actions are necessary. one former fbi official told nbc this about this. this is a really, really big list. you'd be throwing out like three fourths of the bureau that is across the country. it's important to note they are not political appointees, though. most of these people, all of them have served democratic and republican administrations. there's only one political appointee in the fbi, the director of the fbi. these are people who work every day in your communities. they keep you

safe. they do all sorts of investigations. they really have nothing to do with politics. one former federal prosecutor put it like this quote it will mean firing agents who investigate child sex crimes, violent crimes, immigration crimes, chinese espionage, and lots of other criminal activity that president trump claims to care about. our country is significantly weaker and more dangerous because of this. so look, this story is literally developing in real time, and we don't know how it's going to end. but we do know that a functioning, fully staffed fbi across the country is critical for the safety, security and well-being of every community. and we know that trump is doing everything he can to dismantle it, just like he's trying to basically dismantle everything right now. it may feel like a year ago, it feels like that to me. but the week started with the trump administration releasing a memo that appeared to freeze all government spending. and that means every loan, every grant, all of it. they claimed the pause was intended to root out. and this is a direct quote, because i

can't make this up. marxist equity, transgenderism and green new deal social engineering policies, whatever that means. and sure, that might have sounded great to some maga diehards. i'm sure that's who it was written for. and some very online republicans, just like the leading the entire fbi or three fourths of it might sound good. but when that funding freeze actually happened, people across the country understandably freaked out. i mean, just listen to what local newscasts sounded like in the hours and days after that order. >> the words. >> that local. >> agencies gave. >> me today. >> chaotic and confusing. >> chaos and confusion. >> mass confusion. >> confusion. >> even more confusion. >> widespread disruption in health care. >> research. >> education programs and. >> other initiatives. >> several states. >> including utah, reported error messages like this warning of delays and or rejections of payment. >> some kansas. >> city public service. >> agencies could not access their federal. >> fund portals. >> many local organizations. tell us they are facing now an

uncertain future. >> if there's no change in. the order. starting monday, february 3rd, the building will be closed to children and staff. >> you may have to lay people off or. >> furlough them. >> $14 million. >> worth of projects that were coming in to kanawha county. >> are on. >> on hold. >> we really don't. >> know what. >> to expect. >> it's very scary. >> it turns out. i mean, even when people are mad at washington or mad at congress, they like the stuff government does. turns out people need the stuff government does in their communities. and the trump white house did not seem to have any idea whatsoever what they'd done, or the impact it might actually have. i think i'm sensing a bit of a theme here. how about you? now, the next day, facing backlash from the american people and a federal judge, the white house kind of sorta rescinded the memo. kind of sorta intentionally, in my view, making the situation even more confusing. and you may still be confused, but the whole thing was in keeping with their plan to just gut the federal government and trust me. the thing is, this is this story is far from over. because on

friday, a longtime, well-respected treasury official was forced out of his job after a dispute with elon musk over granting him access to the federal payment system that is essentially the country's entire checkbook. i mean, the system is so sensitive that typically only a very small number of career officials have access to it. paychecks to federal workers go through it. social security checks and tax refunds go through it, and sensitive personal information about everyone who gets those payments is in there, too. well, yesterday we learned that elon musk and his doge posse have now been granted access to that federal payment system. so yeah, i know this all sounds scary, and i'm not here to minimize the impacts of a president gutting the federal government and taking a wrecking ball to the department of justice, but that's why we're going to keep talking about it. luckily, i do think the country is realizing just how important government can be and all it took. i hate that this is the case. was the president trying to stop everything the government does? joining me now is democratic

congressman jamie raskin of maryland. he's the ranking democrat on the house judiciary committee. he knows a lot about a lot of things. is my summary, too. i have so many things i want to ask you about, but i just want to start with this purge of fbi officials and january 6th prosecutors. you said in a statement, if allowed to proceed, trump's purge of our federal law enforcement workforce will expose america to authoritarianism and dictatorship. i mean, you are a constitutional law expert. you choose your words carefully. talk to me more about your concern here and where you think this could land. >> well, the. >> dictators always try to move in against the. police to seize that function. if you look at what's happened. trump pardoned 1500 violent insurrectionists, proud boys, oath keepers, seditious conspiracists. people who attack cops, violently assaulted officers. then they appointed. as the u.s. attorney for. >> the district of. >> columbia, a guy who organized the january 6th violent

festivities and assault and protest against the peaceful transfer of power, and has been. an election denier. and now they're proceeding to sack prosecutors who were involved in prosecuting january 6th, even if they were assigned to it. it's not as if they volunteered for that. in a lot of cases. they were just assigned to do it. they're sacking them for having anything to do with it. and the attack on the fbi is extraordinary because for decades it really has been an apolitical operation. there are republicans who work there, independents, democrats. they've served all administrations. and now, just because they were assigned to work on the most massive attack on the u.s. capitol in american history and to prosecute cop assaulters they're being fired or they're being investigated. and so there's this mass purge taking place, obviously, coming from the top. what their overriding and what we're standing on in

the first wave of this is the civil service protections that people have. you know, even at the fbi, people have to have a due process administrative hearing before they're fired. nobody in the civil service can be fired because of political reasons. that's the whole reason. we have a civil service. the civil service exists so people aren't fired for political reasons. and the only justification being given for any of these firings, whether we're talking about prosecutors, fbi agents, people and other agencies, is we feel like you can't get with the president's program. you can't serve him. of course, they haven't been given a chance. so these are apolitical, professional, civil service people. they've not been given the chance. they're just essentially accused of guilt by association for doing their jobs before. and that's an amazing thing. so it's a very dangerous moment for the american people

because the professional independent civil service serves us. it's all of the laws and programs that congress has adopted on behalf of the people, like social security, like medicare, like the national parks, like the fbi itself, like prosecution. and suddenly they are trying to bring it directly under the control of the president for political purposes. >> i just said in the opening, i mean, this is an ongoing story. we've the amazing reporters reporting on it, but there's this list that is reportedly being created that could be made public of people who have worked on these prosecutions, investigated them in a variety of ways. are you concerned about that list becoming public and a target being on the backs of these people? as the january 6th insurrectionists were released? >> well, enrique tarrio, who's a leader of the proud boys, has posted online, i think this morning the name of an fbi agent

demanding her investigation and her arrest for various imaginary crimes. he thinks that she has committed. so we're in a situation now where the pardoned criminals believe that they've got more power, and they're probably right with the new government, then fbi agents, then law enforcement officials, and then prosecutors, and they want a complete purge of the government to bring everybody directly under maga control. >> let me i could keep talking to you about this, but i want to ask you just about because i've been thinking about it constantly since the news broke about the treasury secretary giving access to elon musk's dodge team to the federal payment system, where social security checks are given out, irs refunds are given out. there's personal information in there. this is a topic i have a lot of friends saying. what does this mean? what does this mean? what should people understand about what it means? and is

there anything congress can do to prevent that? >> yeah, well, we don't know exactly what it means. as you're saying, it is comprehensive. it's social security payments, it's medicare, it's medicaid, it's federal government salaries to all of these people who are within the sights of the of the new administration. it's also government contracts. and so there's a profound conflict of interest that saturates the entire thing. you have elon musk, who himself receives billions of dollars in government contracts, now seizing control over the payment systems to government contractors, including himself, including potential rivals, including potential friends. and what could go wrong, right? >> well, and we don't know that this is happening, but he could have having access. they could cancel contracts in there and they could up their contracts. and there's also that's not legal, but there are decisions they could make in that system. >> we don't know exactly what the motivation is. they have ousted a long term treasury

employee who is specialized in just supervising this program, and they've gotten rid of him because he stands in the way of their total and lawless control over the financial machinery of the government. we've not never seen anything like that before. so that's a very dangerous thing. and we want to know exactly what is elon musk's role. is he a member of the administration? is he a private contractor? is he there as a government contractor? what function is he serving? >> all questions i would love to know. to congressman jamie raskin, i always love talking to you. thank you so much for coming in. great to see you today. and coming up, donald trump follows through on his threat to slap tariffs on canada and mexico and china. and this morning he literally admitted that it will cause pain for american consumers. senator amy klobuchar is standing by and she joins me in just 60s.

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win. and if there starts to be layers of tariffs, we're going to have to respond. and that's no fun because that ends up driving up costs for everyone on both sides of the border. >> that was canadian prime minister justin trudeau on this show just three weeks ago, telling me how canada planned to respond if donald trump followed through on his threat to impose tariffs. well, as we all know, that day has come. and starting tuesday, imports from canada and mexico will have a 25% tariff rate, though there is a 10% carve out for canadian energy and oil exports and imports from china will only be hit at 10%. and just as trudeau signaled, canada was quick to respond with a retaliatory 25% tariffs on more than $100 billion worth of u.s. goods, mexico and china are also vowing retaliation. and for all of this bluster throughout the campaign that americans

wouldn't feel the cost, trump posted a rambling screen on truth social this morning, reading in part, quote, will there be some pain? yes, maybe. and maybe not. whatever on earth that means? put it on a bumper sticker, folks. it's helping us understand it, i guess. joining me now is democratic senator amy klobuchar of minnesota. senator, it's great to see you. there are so many things i can always ask you about, but i want to start there because i think americans are trying to understand. i'm sure people in your state are trying to understand what exactly the impact is of these tariffs on your state borders, canada. you obviously know what a key trading partner the country country is. what concerns you most and how to make it real for people. are these tariffs going to impact people in your state. >> this is just the latest example. >> of you. >> as you've detailed. >> every day chaos. >> up. >> corruption up and sadly prices of eggs up. and we're going to see more of this if he follows through on this 25% tariff on canada, mexico, 10% on

china, what does that mean? it means that the average american family is going to have their costs increased by $1,200 for one year. he hasn't even acknowledged that this is going to happen, that we're going to see these prices go up for so many things because canada, of course, is hitting back with a 25% retaliation. and look at what these groups have said. chamber of commerce has come out against this. interesting manufacturers. the national association of manufacturers said that we will lose manufacturing jobs, machinists union, we will lose jobs. this is just all last night all this came out. home builders, national association home builders have said it's going to increase the cost of home building because of issues with timber and the like. so this is not what american economy needs right now. i favor targeted tariffs for things like china, like china's steel dumping and the effect that had on the iron ore mines in minnesota and throughout the country. i favored these targeted tariffs.

but he is not using a chisel. he is using a sledge hammer. >> i want to turn senator to the friday evening's purge of fbi officials, investigators from across the country. i can't emphasize enough how how stunning this is and how alarming this this action should be. and i just wanted to ask you, just for your reaction to that news, which is still an ongoing developing story, of course. >> literally. kash patel, just hours before, had said in his confirmation hearing, among many other things, that there would not be a purge at the fbi. a few hours later, the top senior people career people write 8 or 9 people are purged out, terminated at the same time. we learn in the same memo from the justice department that they had the trump justice department, that they have asked for a list of everyone that worked on the prosecutions of the january 6th

violent criminals. by the way, these are line agents, line agents that are just doing their job. why are they they got assigned to a case because a violent felon went in and assaulted a police officer, and they are now getting put on a list. so i had thought that trump was talking about public safety in his campaign. kash patel is out there basically saying, well, yeah, i don't remember that. i said we should prosecute the police officers before that. that testified at the january 6th hearing. but guess what he did that he actually agreed with steve bannon on his podcast or joe page that that should happen. that is what we are seeing right now. and the kash patel part of this is an unbelievable problem for public safety in america. >> it raises lots of questions. but one of them, for the moment, you mentioned from the hearing

where he either lied to all of your faces or he was out of the loop. i don't know the answer to that, but do you think, given the news on friday, this this gives members of your committee justification for delaying the vote on him? i. >> i hope so. you know, we have people on the committee, republicans. the democrats, of course, are opposed, but we have republicans that have been prosecutors before. we have people like senator grassley as the chair who cares about things like whistleblowers and how agencies function, and listen to what kash patel said. kash patel actually said that they should close down the fbi headquarters, where the major terrorism and cyber investigations happen. he said that earlier he just ignored it when i tried to ask him, didn't you say that he wouldn't really answer it? then you go to other things that he has. he has said in the past about his list that he put together. he called it, you

know, gang government, gangsters and deep state. he put people on the list like dennis mcdonough, the former veterans secretary who's done an incredible job. he put people on the list like bill barr, the republican attorney general, presumably because he said that he didn't think kash patel could get a job, in his words, over his dead body should not work at the fbi, presumably because because barr would not admit that, in fact, the election was rigged and said he found no evidence of that. kash patel has a revenge agenda when he gets to the fbi, and you're already seeing it right now in real time. as we go into his vote in the committee. >> even before he gets there. i mean, we also know this week that about two people installed in the fbi director's office, one is a former aide to jim jordan, another with ties to elon musk. this is an agency where there's only one political appointee. typically explain to

our viewers why that is alarming. >> because in the past, while the fbi director, who usually serves ten terms right and i supported fbi directors nominated by republican presidents like christopher wray because i believe so strongly that you have to have someone with the experience to run this kind of an agency and someone that has the trust of the people that work with him. i know during christopher wray's term, the applicants to the fbi have gone up three fold, three times the amount of people have applied during the time he's been there than in the past, and he has been able to gain the trust of the 38,000 people that work there. so you do not have these political people populating under the director, and that is exactly what they're doing. jim jordan's person, someone with ties to elon musk. and in answer to your questions that you asked congressman

raskin about elon musk, i don't understand why doesn't he divest his holdings if he is making actual decisions in the government that pertain to the work that he does, where he's looking at government contractors, and that is something that's going to have to be considered. i don't think anyone expected that he would have the role that he does. when he got to washington, i thought he was running companies. >> senator amy klobuchar, maybe he wants to pat his pockets. we don't entirely know, but i expect all of you to look into it. thank you so much for joining me. up next, a key republican senator practically begs rfk jr to disavow a conspiracy theory, and rfk jr refuses. i'm going to explain refuses. i'm going to explain that after a quick b for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. ♪far-xi-ga♪ ♪far-xi-ga♪ ask your doctor about farxiga.

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xfinity internet customers, cut your mobile bill in half vs. t-mobile, verizon, and at&t for your first year. plus, ask how to get the new samsung galaxy s25+ on us. body deodorant to try and start controlling your body odor better everywhere. >> will you. >> reassure mothers, unequivocally and without qualification, that the measles and hepatitis b vaccines do not cause autism? >> senator. >> i am not going into the agency with. >> any kind of a yes or no question because. so if. you're because the data is there and that's kind of a yes or no. and i don't mean to cut you off, but that really is a yes or no. if the data is. >> there. >> i will. >> absolutely do that. >> so that was republican senator and physician bill cassidy. you just saw there questioning robert f kennedy jr during his confirmation hearing this past week. and you might

have noticed that senator cassidy did not get the answer, that he was practically begging for. instead, rfk jr dodged and notably refused to say there is no link between vaccines and autism. but let's be abundantly clear here. the data is absolutely clear on this issue, and it's clear, thanks to decades of studies based on data from hundreds of thousands of patients. but despite that broad scientific consensus, rfk jr has for years been one of the most prominent anti-vaccine advocates in the world, and he continues to push the repeatedly debunked claim that vaccines can cause autism. so i think we should take a second to talk about the origin of that theory, since the guy who might or might or may not, who knows, be our next hhs secretary can't seem to let go of it. as vox has reported concerns about a possible tie between vaccine and autism spiked after a 1998 study in the uk on the mmr vaccine, and that

study was led by a now discredited former physician and researcher by the name of andrew wakefield. you can see him there now. at the time, his study was so worrying that it understandably got a lot of attention. but under closer scrutiny, his theory began to unravel before being completely discredited and for good reason. because the study drew its conclusions from only 12 children. even though the vaccine in question was administered to literally millions of children around the world every year. and even with such a small sample size, wakefield still manipulated the data, presumably to get his intended result. as one investigative journalist found, no case was free of misreporting or alteration. that may explain why medical researchers were never able to reproduce his work. in fact, wakefield himself wasn't even able to replicate his own findings. but this wasn't just a story of bunk science, and it's definitely a story of bunk science or of

manipulated data. and it's definitely that, too. it was also about the apparent agenda behind it. and this is an important part, because andrew wakefield actually stood to profit from his findings. so at the same time he was discrediting the mmr shot. he was also filing patents for competing vaccines that would capitalize on the fear and doubt he had created. and after years of intense scrutiny and analysis, the wakefield study was finally retracted in 2010, a disciplinary board found that wakefield was guilty of irresponsible and misleading reporting of research findings, potentially having such major implications for public health. and yet, despite all of that, andrew wakefield still had some very big fans. today, take a look at this video we dug up from a rally in 2019. see if you recognize the speaker. >> i want. >> to say something about andy because in any justice society, we would be building statues to

andy wakefield. >> statues for the guy with the bogus study who stood to profit from his rhetoric and his fake study. okay, this is the anti-vax world that rfk jr has for years proudly pushed for. and it's not just the peddling of bad science that kennedy has in common with wakefield, it's also the fact that he stands to financially benefit from that bad science, just like wakefield did. if he is confirmed. as senator elizabeth warren pointed out during kennedy's confirmation hearing, he has made nearly $2.5 million in referral fees. this is rfk jr from an anti-vax law firm. he also receives a 10% contingency fee in these cases. if the plaintiffs win and his ethics agreement indicates he will continue to receive these payments even if he is confirmed. i mean, that is an outrageous conflict of interest for someone who wants to be in charge of our nation's health system. and you know who agrees with that? well, the very conservative wall street journal

editorial board, they write, we never thought we'd hear this, but miss warren has an excellent point that mr. kennedy, as hhs secretary, could have the ability to kill off access to vaccines and make millions of dollars while he does it. if confirmed, robert f kennedy jr not only stands to endanger millions of americans with his conspiracy theories, he could also make a lot of money doing it. he isn't the first snake oil salesman to prey on people's worries. lord knows that. but he would be the first anti-vax crank to do so. as the head of america's health system, senator maggie hassan questioned rfk jr maggie hassan questioned rfk jr on capitol hill this week, and ever feel like a spectator in your own life with chronic migraine? 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine. in a survey, 91% of users wish they'd started sooner. so why wait? talk to your doctor. botox® effects may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms.

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enjoy a spotless house for $19. i love using home glow and. >> i think. >> you will too. >> i can feel the winds of change. >> okay, it's fair to say a lot happened during rfk jr's confirmation hearing. he clumsily tried to distance himself from conspiracy theories he promoted for years, and he repeatedly showed a lack of basic understanding of health care in general is the only way i can summarize it, but there's one moment that kind of stopped me in my tracks, and it happened when it was when it was senator maggie hassan turn to speak. >> i am. >> the. proud mother. >> of a. >> 36 year. >> old young man with severe cerebral. >> palsy. >> and a day does not go by. >> when i don't. >> think about. >> what did i. >> do when. >> i. was pregnant. >> with him, that. >> might have caused the hydrocephalus that is so. impacted his life. >> so please do not.

>> suggest that. >> anybody in. >> this body of either. >> political party doesn't want to know what the cause of autism is. mr. kennedy, that first autism study rocked my world and like every mother. i worried about whether in fact, the vaccine had done something to my son. and you know what? it was a tiny study of about 12 kids. and over time, the scientific community studied and studied and studied and found that it was wrong. and when you continue to sow doubt about settled science, it makes it impossible for us to move forward. so that's what the problem is here. it's the relitigating and rehashing and continuing to sow doubt. so we can't move forward and it freezes us in place. >> and joining me now is democratic senator maggie hassan of new hampshire. senator, that was such a powerful moment. i

think any parent who has a child of any age could not have not been moved by that moment. i've watched it multiple times and i was getting a little choked up watching it then. but i just want to start by asking you about your decision to talk about your personal experience and your son, because you don't do that all the time, but you did that in the hearing, right? >> thanks for having me on, jen. >> look. >> i did not go into that hearing planning. >> to talk. >> about ben, but what. occurred to me, i'd been in the. >> previous day's hearing as well as thursday's hearing. and i was. >> listening to the back and forth as. >> mr. kennedy wouldn't. >> acknowledge that vaccines do. >> not cause autism. and what had begun to. >> creep into. >> the conversation among senators was questioning by some on the republican side about whether democrats really wanted to get to the cause of autism. and i thought, this is where this nominee has taken us. everybody wants to understand

what autism. >> is and. >> how it is caused. >> so we can prevent it, and. >> we can treat it. >> as best we can. for those. >> who already have the condition. and so i thought it was really. important to take us back to this baseline, that we all want our children to be healthy and well. and the danger of bobby kennedy jr here is that he really litigates all this stuff. i don't know precisely why you did a very good job in your overview of suggesting some reasons, but we have precious tax dollars. we have precious time. they need to be invested in building on the science that we are beginning to have about the causes of autism and so many other conditions and diseases. and in the meantime, we also need a secretary of hhs who knows about the department's obligations of treating and caring for people who do have these conditions. that's about the medicaid program, among other things, which the

republicans are proposing to cut in massive ways. so it's both the divisiveness and his, as i said in my comments, freezing us in place when we should be moving forward with our energy and our investments to find cures. but it's also his complete lack of understanding of what the agency he's been nominated to lead does and what it will mean to americans all across the country if medicaid is cut. so people are thrown out of nursing homes or disabled kids can't get the care or schools can't get the supports they need, so that people like my son could go to school. that was what was so troubling, along with a whole lot of other things. but that's what was going through my head at the time. >> such a powerful reminder of how much this department impacts millions of people across the country. human beings. you said on thursday that you were skeptical about voting for rfk jr, and you weren't ready to commit one way or the other. obviously, you've been open about your concerns, but have

you made a decision about where you're going to vote? >> yeah, i'm not going to vote for mr. kennedy. as is true with every confirmation vote i take, i work really hard to make sure i begin the process with an open mind. and mr. kennedy's case, i was certainly skeptical because of his vaccine denialism, among other things. but look, what i saw on wednesday and thursday was a man entirely unprepared to be the secretary of this agency, the lead health care spokesperson in the united states of america for the reasons we've discussed, but also the way he uses this supposed skepticism, it's really his cynicism about science to injure us in other ways. one of the other lines of questioning we had was whether he understood that mifepristone, which is, of course, the drug that about half of the women in the country who seek abortions, use for medication, abortions, whether that was safe and he wouldn't commit to that on wednesday,

even though, again, i had a stack of studies this this tall that said that it is safe and effective, he will do whatever donald trump tells him to do. that's been very clear because he's abandoned his support for reproductive rights in pursuing this job. but there's just so many ways that the secretary of health and human services impacts the daily lives of americans. he didn't know that medicaid, for instance, covers addiction treatment. he didn't know that medicaid is what pays for seniors in nursing homes. he didn't know that disabled kids get care through the medicaid program. he was clueless about the medicare program and what different pieces of it what's entailed in different parts of the medicare program. this is not somebody who should be leading the biggest and most important health agency, really, i think, in the world. the last thing i'll just say to you about

that is that i heard from a constituent this week who, since she was 11 years old, she's about my age, in her 60s now. i think she's been getting health care through the national institutes of health, cutting edge health care for a rare condition. there are thousands of americans who seek nih health care every year. but he wants to lay people off. he doesn't really know what it does. his cynicism about this role, his cynicism about science, the way he uses it for his own personal fame and benefit is really, really damaging to the cause of science and progress. and it will impact people all across this country in just dramatic and terrible ways. >> senator maggie hassan, thank you for speaking so passionately with us. and at that hearing, i appreciate you joining me today. we'll be right back. >> thank you so much for. >> having me. >> back. pain. >> when you've. got it. >> you know it. introducing the. zpack from copper finn.

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are all in constant competition for attention. i mean, whether it's media trying to break through an increasingly crowded information environment, or politicians trying to communicate with voters, or even parents attempting to connect with their kids at a time when social media and screens are dominating all of our lives. that's the subject of the brand new book the siren's call, by my colleague and friend chris hayes, who i sat down with this week here in washington. we're obviously in a moment where attention seeking. i mean, the person who's president of the united states is a master attention seeker, an attention dominator. pathological pathologically is a good way of describing it. and it hit me over the last ten days. i have obviously been a long time consumer of trump, but i've never hosted a tv show. well, trump has been president, and it feels quite different to figure out what to follow and cover and what not to cover. how do you think about that, and how do you reflect on the first term and apply that to now? >> there's this weird. >> synchronicity now between. >> how we feel about our

attention with trump. >> and. >> how we feel about. >> it broadly in the world of. >> the social. >> media platforms. >> and. >> our screens, which is. >> the sense. >> of like. >> something kind of insistently trying to grab. >> our attention that we're not. >> sure we. >> actually want to pay attention to. >> one of the. principles i've. told myself. >> here is that focus is power. >> and i. >> think you just you saw. >> this, you. >> know, over. >> the over the past week. >> where this. executive order. >> or this memo. >> comes out from. >> omb freezing. >> all the federal. >> funding in the. >> government, and there. was a focused. pushback on it. >> it was. >> the story. it was a bunch of. >> questions in the. >> white house. >> briefing, like over and over and over again. >> it was all. >> the members. >> of. >> congress, house and senate talking about what they. heard from their constituents. focusing really. >> has a power. and one of the things. >> that trump tries. >> to do is. overwhelm the ability to focus. and i think there's. >> a real lesson there. >> the chaos is the point, right? >> the chaos is. >> the point. >> the idea of. >> dominating attention.

>> even if. >> it's dominating negatively and dominating in such a. >> way so that you are always. >> interrupting things with. >> new stimuli. >> one of the things that's been interesting in the political world, and you talk about this in your book, is that there have been a lot of efforts to model that, to copycat that and the republican party, right, to grab attention, to try to say things that are outrageous, to be trollers from people like kari lake and herschel walker and doctor oz and others. all of them lost, though, and they seem to be following this model that should in some ways work given it's worked for trump. why do you think that is? >> this is one of the most interesting unanswered questions of the trump age, which is that trump has figured out that even negative attention is still attention, and dominating attention is all that matters. my theory on this is this you can only act like trump if you are authentically, that pathologically dependent on attention, because there's something about trump and his

desire for attention that is authentic. it is what animates him. he is not faking it. he needs it all the time. if you try to pretend to be that person, it doesn't work like there's some level of inauthenticity that ends up coming back to bite those candidates. and so this sort of question about, you know, democrats, i think, tend to think and, you know, you worked in comms, right? like if the option is i'm going to get a lot of negative attention or no attention, like. >> i'll. >> take no attention. >> i mean. >> for you. >> right up at the podium, it's like if i didn't make news today. >> some days that's the best outcome. >> that's the. >> best. >> outcome, right? trump always wants to make news and he always wants attention even as negative. and it's worked for him in singular fashion. and i do think that democrats and the broad center left has been slower to catch on to this, partly because there is this asymmetry about sort of wanting to be liked or kind of general socialization. right. there's a kind of strange, you know, you

could even call it sociopathy in, in the, in the trump and musk kind of troll politics. and the question of whether even that kind of politics would work for someone on the center left, i think, is an open question. >> i think that's a huge question. >> it's a really. >> interesting one, right? it's a really. >> interesting i think there's like two. >> ways to think about this is like, what is a democratic anti-trump look like? is it someone who is a kind of troll of the center left, or is it someone whose relationship to attention is itself the opposite of donald trump? >> because the trolling, which you talk about in your book, too, is has it's been incentivized in many ways. i mean, republicans who are trollers like marjorie taylor greene raising money. >> she monetizes her attention. >> she monetizes it. she's beloved for her trolling. and it feels like right now there isn't really a backlash for her for what she wants. >> yes, exactly. like if you're just a. >> jerk.

>> you will get attention. and that fundamental insight, that kind of cheat code has now been sort of cultivated at scale, so that we have it as part of the culture. we have it as troll politics. we have elon musk, we have donald trump, we have marjorie taylor greene. and it presents a real dilemma. >> chris, i loved this book. i'm so. glad you liked it. yeah. and it made me think about everything from being a parent to learning about television. and you're super honest about all of it, but it's great talking to you. >> appreciate it. >> thank you. and my friend chris hayes go buy his book. it's very thought provoking and we'll be right back. >> we will get you. >> and doug. >> you'll be back. >> emus can't. >> help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. >> you're just a flightless bird. >> no, he's a dreamer, frank. >> and doug. >> well, i'll be. that bird

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