>> get $30 off. >> at ro covid day. >> it's the retribution. stupid said. >> no swing voter ever. >> but that's where team trump is focused against an undisputed american. >> military hero. >> donald trump's. >> newly minted. secretary of defense, pete hegseth. >> in short.

>> order, is. >> exacting donald trump's. >> revenge on retired four star general. former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley. >> quote. >> removing his security detail, revoking his security clearance and. ordering an inspector general inquiry into his record. viewers of this. program remember all too well that general milley was a frequent target of. donald trump's rage and deranged rants that included, quote, suggesting that general milley had committed treason and should be put to. >> death. >> end quote. in part. because of public. >> threats like that, threats that sound like they're straight out. >> of north. >> korea or russia. quote, general. milley received a. preemptive pardon from president biden, a pardon that. >> means. >> quote, general milley cannot be. >> court martialed. >> but a finding against him could lead to a decision to reduce his rank, even in retirement. in plain english. reduce his rank means potentially taking. away one of general milley's four stars. >> stars he.

>> earned for. extraordinary bravery on the battlefield. >> and in. >> the theater of. >> war, leading our. brave men and. women in uniform. >> the details. >> matter here. >> this is just some of what four star. general mark milley did to earn those four stars. there's his extensive background of combat experience in egypt, panama, haiti, bosnia, iraq, afghanistan, somalia and colombia. there's general milley's long list of awards and honors from the army's distinguished service medal to the legion of merit, the national defense service medal, the afghanistan campaign medal, the global war on terrorism service medal. there are too many to actually list here, and despite the extraordinary. record of service and patriotism and courage, this is who donald trump has chosen to humiliate and potentially demote. it's petty, like ordering general milley's portraits to be yanked. >> off the walls. >> at the pentagon. but make no mistake, it is also dangerous.

trump's retribution punishing general mark milley by pulling his security detail is a serious threat to mark milley's life. we know that in the wake of the 2020 strike that killed a top iranian commander, soleimani. >> quote. >> the iranian revolutionary guard posted a video explicitly threatening 15 former trump administration. officials with imminent assassination. >> quote. >> by drone, sniper. fire bomb, lethal injection or stabbing, end quote, topping what u.s. officials. informally call iran's kill list was, among others, then chairman of the joint chiefs of staff mark milley. veteran journalist bob woodward reported on just how serious the threats to mark milley's life were in his book war, writing this quote. since retiring, milley had received a nonstop barrage of death threats that he, at least in part, attributed to trump's repeated aggressive attempts to discredit him as a former chairman, milley was provided round the clock

government security for two years, but he had taken additional precautions at significant personal expense, installing bulletproof glass and blast proof curtains at his home. >> bulletproof glass. >> and blast proof curtains because donald trump threatened him. now exacting revenge on general milley by pulling his security detail, the detail that's protecting him from that publicly stated threat from iran is nothing short of putting a bull's eye on his back. >> making it easier for. >> america's known enemies to target an american. >> military hero. and why? why is this happening, you might ask? because retired four star general mark milley was willing to do what far too few people have been brave enough to do, which was to find a line and hold it and speak the truth to power. he went on the record saying, quote, no one has ever been as dangerous to this country as donald trump, telling

bob woodward, this quote, now. >> i realize. >> he's a total fascist. he is the most dangerous person to this country. donald trump, he said, is, quote, fascist to the core. and he didn't just say it in private to reporters. he said it in. >> public, out. >> loud, so that the brave women in uniform and every american citizen could hear him. >> you see. >> we in. uniform are unique. >> we are unique. among the world's armies. we are unique among the world's militaries. we don't take an oath to a country. we don't take an oath to a tribe. we don't take an oath to a religion. we don't take an oath to a king or a queen, or to a tyrant or a dictator. and we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. we don't take an oath to an individual. we take an oath to the constitution, and we take an oath to the idea that is

america, and we're willing to die to protect it. >> word. some of trump's cabinet picks might want to ruminate on. we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator, even if that wannabe dictator tries to exact his revenge on you. it's where we start with some of our favorite reporters and friends. nbc news national security correspondent courtney kuby is here. also joining us, retired u.s. army brigadier general steve anderson is here. and with me at the table for the hour, host of the independent americans podcast, founder and ceo of independent veterans of america, paul rieckhoff joins us. courtney kube, you covered general milley. what can you tell us about his reaction to this extraordinary move by pete hegseth today? >> yeah. >> i've. >> been covering. >> general milley. >> for a long time, actually, since he was a. >> commander in. >> afghanistan years ago. >> so i will say he is not commenting on. >> any of this at this point. >> but i think. >> that what what. >> we. need to. >> remember here is. >> where the threat. >> really is. against mark

milley. yes. >> iran. >> as you mentioned, nicole. absolutely. there is a concern that iran could be continuing to. >> target u.s. >> officials who were involved in the in the assassination. >> of. >> qasem soleimani. >> but also. >> who. >> were involved. >> in things even. >> after that. >> so other efforts. >> to for. >> the u.s. to go. >> after iran. >> and iranian proxy groups. and remember, one thing you have to remember. about iran is they do not always respond right away. sometimes their their responses and their retaliation comes months, if not years later. >> so that. >> is a threat. but really, what the bigger threat to mark milley has been in recent years is, is from people who are very loyal to donald trump because of the sorts of comments that he and statements that he has made that you. just outlined there. that has been one of the bigger threats that he has faced. it's really more of an of an internal united states threat that has caused him to continue to have security, to take the measures that he outlined to bob woodward in that book, and to be continue to be concerned about his safety

and security. now, in addition to pulling his security clearance, i'm sorry, his security detail, the new secretary of defense, pete hegseth, literally on day one, also decided to pull general milley security clearance. and he has ordered the department of defense, the pentagon's office of inspector general, to review or conduct an inquiry into milley's time in service into his more than four decades in the military. frankly, most. >> likely. >> focusing on his last several years to determine and make a recommendation about whether there should be a grade determination board that could ultimately decide to lower general milley's rank. he retired as a four star general. he has all the benefits and the pay that go along with that retirement. but if in fact a grade determination board goes through and finds he did not serve honorably during his time as a four star general, they could knock him down in grade to

the rank where he was, where they find him to have last served honorably. nicole, i got to say this, i do not expect this to be a quick process. the department of the oig, you know, they are busy. the inspector general's office, they have a lot of projects. and i have to point out that the inspector general here, robert storch, was one of the ones who was fired quietly last friday night. so now they are working with an acting inspector general on top of everything else. but even if that occurred, i even if they do make a recommendation to review his grade and his rank and grade that he retired at, i don't expect that to be an extremely fast process here. nicole. >> let me play some of what you're drawing our attention to, and that is the threats that general milley faced domestically. here he is talking about it in an interview with 60 minutes. >> he is. >> suggesting that you be punished by death. the former commander in chief to his former top military advisor. >> look. >> i'm a soldier. >> i've been faithful.

>> and loyal to the constitution of the united states for 44.5 years, and my. family and i. have sacrificed greatly for this country, my. >> mother and father. >> before them. >> and, you know. >> as much as these. >> comments are directed. >> at me. >> it's also directed at the institution of the military. and there's 2.1 million of us in uniform, and the american people. >> can. >> take it to the bank that. >> all of us, every. >> single. one of us. from private to general. were loyal. >> to that constitution. >> it will never turn our back on it, no matter what, no matter what. >> the threats. >> no matter what the humiliation, no matter what. >> if we're willing. >> to die for that document, if we're willing to deploy, to combat, if we're willing to lose an arm, a leg, an eye to protect and support and defend that document and protect the american people, then we're willing to live for it to. >> he i mean, i wonder, courtney, if you can just sort of tell people about him as someone who knows him and covered him. i mean, i had a chance to meet him and his his parents served service to the

country and to the military is like the air he breathes, the idea of sacrifice and the idea of reverence for the men and women who serve. i mean, his religion is to keep the faith to the men and women of the military, to lift them up, to help put them back together. it is his work. it is his wife's work. talk about who he is to the men and women of the military. >> so i think that mark milley has always been a frustrated historian. at the end of the day, he. >> is. >> he you you can you if you would sit down and have a conversation with him, there is almost an absolute certainty that he would talk to you about the future of war and the history of war. he would often throw in references to attila the hun and the treaty of westphalia. he he is. he loves to talk about history. and i think part of the reason that we have heard some of these comments that are, you know, where he's he's even like that 60 minutes interview that you just ran while he was still the chairman. that was literally in his last few days as chairman of the joint chiefs. is he he is a

student of history, and he loves to look back at how things have happened in the past and how they could repeat in the future. and i think that that drives a lot of the comments that he has made. i have to say, you know, one thing that's been really striking, as all of this has unfolded and nicole, yes, his security detail and clearance were revoked yesterday by secretary hegseth, but this actually started last week on the day that president trump was inaugurated. general milley's brand new portrait that had just been hung up just around the corner from us here in the pentagon on the e ring. his portrait as the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, it had just been hung up only days earlier, was quietly removed. it was the area where it was hanging, was painted over. the holes were filled in. it's like there it was like it was never hanging there. and then last night we went and looked at his, his portrait to be the army chief of staff, which was hanging upstairs that was hanging as of last night, this morning, 9 a.m, it was gone. and to top it off, the portrait of mark esper, who served as secretary of defense under president donald trump in his first term and served as his

army secretary before that. his army secretary portrait is gone. his secdef portrait is still hanging up. i feel like i'm sort of moonlighting right now as a portrait correspondent, walking the halls, seeing what is still hanging, what is not. we are asking for specifically for statements about that, but we're keeping an eye. the reality is there were other people besides mark milley who ran afoul of president trump, both in his first term and in the time after that. and their pictures are hanging here, and we are continuing to look to see which other ones are being taken down. at this point, we're not really sure where those portraits have gone beyond people here assuring us that they have not been damaged or destroyed. >> brigadier general steve anderson, why would you need to erase general mark milley if you're donald trump? >> because i'm petty and because i'm i'm all about fealty. and loyalty to myself and doesn't

understand loyalty to the constitution. that's why i mean, welcome to. >> germany, 1933. i mean. >> you know, he's trying to intimidate members of the military like mark milley, to be subservient to him and, you know, and not stand up and not not fight and defend the. >> constitution of the united. >> states versus fight and defend him. that's what he wants. this is. >> a shameless. >> political act of retribution. i mean, so. much for pete hegseth assurances to get politics out of the military and focus on a warrior culture. i mean, the first thing he did was a political act of retribution on behalf of donald trump, going after one of the greatest warriors that this country has ever produced. i mean, mark milley was an incredible soldier, scholar, statesman who served in the great tradition of george c marshall. and it's just so sad to see the marshall court now is devoid of his, his, his, his painting. i mean, but he was

an american patriot who sacrificed so much. >> a princeton grad. >> he could have gone on to make all kinds of big bucks on the outside. but no, he served. he picked a life of selfless service to our nation. he served in iraq, afghanistan, bosnia, panama, korea. i mean, going on and on for bronze stars, for crying out loud. commanded the 10th mountain division, one of our most storied divisions in the united states. he sacrificed so much for 44 years. and to see him treated like this, i mean, it's just reprehensible. i mean, we're not talking about national security here. we're not talking about the war in iraq or, excuse me, in ukraine or gaza. we're not talking about building relationships with key. allies or protecting americans from, you know, terrorists. no, we're talking about an act of retribution on behalf of donald trump. and it's just shameful. >> it is an act paul rieckhoff carried out in the name of the american people. paul pete hegseth salary is paid by the taxpayer. he was confirmed by the united states senate, the

first secretary of defense ever to be opposed by bipartisan senators. i think that is the history that he made get opposition from the democratic party in total. and three republicans. and one of his first acts is to carry out a retribution campaign against a fellow soldier. it it it shouldn't boggle my mind. i'm embarrassed that i can still be horrified by anything that trump does, but i'm horrified. >> this is what. >> we predicted and warned could happen. it's disgusting. it's dishonorable, it's damaging. >> and it's deeply. >> dangerous. just on a very basic national security. >> basis, if. >> you send a message. >> to the world. >> that we will not protect the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, our enemies are celebrating. he has protection because the iranians want to kill him. right. that's that's part of it. but then there's also the threat from extremist groups. there's any number of threats from a lone wolf. the president himself knows that because he was shot this past

summer. so the chairman of joint chiefs should have security. all chairman of the joint chiefs should. >> have it. >> just like cabinet secretaries need it. because if they don't, they are a trophy for our enemies and they have security value. that is immeasurable. but it's also more than just erasing history. they're trying to erase opposition. what they're saying in the first couple of days is if you oppose us, we will come for you. we will make an example of you, and we can even get the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. and if we can get him, what message does that send to cascade across the entire military? they are setting a tone, and the tone is of loyalty and fealty and obligation. and to put that above anything else, and if you cross us, this is what happens. >> courtney, let me just come back to the iranian threat. i mean, from the outside, the thing that stitches three of the four people that we have learned, trump stripped security from pompeo, bolton and milley is the stated public threat to assassinate everyone involved in the soleimani strike. are you

aware of any i mean, what did pompeo and the reason i list that group of three is i don't know anyone that understands what it is that pompeo did to make trump angry. what is the answer inside the pentagon for how to protect people who carried out a commander in chief's order? at the end of the day, it was trump's order to carry out the strike that killed soleimani. what is the military's response to leaving people who were simply following an order from a commander in chief exposed to threats not just of violence, but of an assassination from iran? >> i have to say there are a number of people who were involved in the soleimani strike who are still and have a very real active threat against them by from iran, who have not been touched by this. and, you know, just ethically, i don't think it's fair to name them here at this point. but but there are a number of people, a number of people who have not had their security pulled. and i don't really understand exactly what this is. i think that part of

the reason that general milley was targeted here is the comments that he made that you highlighted at the top, nicole. but also remember, there are people who have come into this administration, including the secretary of defense and others who are very close to donald trump, still want there to be someone who is held accountable for the withdrawal from afghanistan. remember, one of the major faces of that for the united states military or military was general mark milley. you'll recall that even after the strike occurred in kabul, that ended up killing an aid worker, a civilian aid worker, and his family. remember general milley, initially as the chairman, came out and defended that strike before. we later found out that it was an errant strike, that it was a terrible mistake that killed these innocent civilians, including a number of children. so general milley is one of the people who still is seen as one of those who was directly involved in that, who should potentially be held accountable. and keep in mind, nicole, he's someone who they can do that, being a

retired military officer, a general officer, there is always the possibility that someone who serves as a general officer, paul rieckhoff, would know this very well. so our retired general, they know very well that that an administration can reach in and bring them back on active duty and hold them accountable in a military court of justice, if that is seen. so, general milley is one of the ones who is just frankly, accessible for them to go after about something like afghanistan. to nicole. >> courtney, thank you so much for your reporting on this. if you learn anything new with your arms and we'd love to bring you back, we'll keep the general and back, we'll keep the general and paul around a little bit longer. my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis held me back. now with skyrizi, i'm all in with clearer skin. ♪ things are getting clearer ♪ ♪♪ ♪ yeah... i feel free ♪ ♪ to bare my skin yeah that's all me. ♪ ♪♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ ♪♪ with skyrizi 3 out of 4 people

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and now, save 50% on the new sleep number® limited edition smart bed . plus 0% interest for 36 months. is clinically backed to promote healthy liver function so that nothing is holding you back. >> we actually. >> have a breaking news story we are going to bring you. can you describe the document that you found? >> tell us. >> how it. >> fits into the broader picture of reporting on hegseth. >> what do you make of. >> the. >> fact that i think a lot of people. >> are seeing in you. >> a form of courage that they hoped they would have themselves? what is it like to have all of that work and all of those cases and all of those convictions and all of those sentences wiped away by the president more than ever? this is not a time to pretend this isn't happening. >> i want to understand white rage, and i'm white and i want to understand it. so what is it that caused thousands of people to assault this building and try to overturn the constitution of the united states of america? what caused that? i want to find

that out. i want to maintain an open mind here, and i do want to analyze it. it's important that we understand that because our soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines and guardians, they come from the american people. so it is important that the leaders now and in the future do understand it. i've read mao tse-tung, i've read, i've read karl marx, i've read lenin. that doesn't make me a communist. so what is wrong with understanding, having some situational understanding about the country for which we are here to defend. general, there might not be a moment, i think, where the public got to see sort of the curiosity that drives this, this general and the decency and, and the fealty to the constitution in practice. and what is a quirk only of this political moment is that he was attacked for that. i think the maga movement revealed itself in its reaction to that. they didn't like what they heard. >> no, they did not. and it's

sad because he's a great american patriot. he's a great scholar and statesman. he understands the difference. between loyalty to a person versus loyalty to the constitution. and he understands, you know, to have be intellectually curious to how soldiers need to be thinking about things like that, to be exposed to other, other theories, theories. that doesn't necessarily mean that they embrace it, but they certainly should understand that. and they should be students of history. they should be students of our country. and they should they should understand where they stand within, you know, the great american society that we built here. and, you know, mark milley understands that. and he had the courage to speak up. and it's sad that people are taking shots at him now and that he's, you know, his security detail has been removed. and there's a tremendous threat against him, not just from iranian hit squads, but also from people that are loyal to donald trump for his his willingness to speak up and to speak truth to power. you know, we just saw donald trump release 1500

insurrectionists. you know, what's not to say that someone couldn't try to hurt general milley? it'd be absolutely terrible if it were to happen. and then on thinking that he'd ultimately get a pardon from general from from the president. i mean, it's not that outrageous to think that that harming general milley. this is a man, that general that donald trump said was guilty of treason and should be executed. i mean, you know, it only takes one person to take that seriously. and, you know, so to remove his security detail at a time like this is just reprehensible. >> it's an uncomfortable part of this conversation. but i'd like you to pick up on what the general is saying. harming general milley, a man trump accused of treason isn't a leap in an age of the hammer assault on speaker pelosi's husband. >> it's very real. the threat environment that we operate in,

everybody from folks in media to political leaders to people in the military, everybody can be a target now, and all it takes is one political leader or one fox news host to call your name and put it out there. and this is really, i think, ripe to ignite in some really dangerous and terrible ways. and it already has. and i think we have to recognize that that threat environment is not just now it's been happening, but we're entering a new normal. this is what they want to impose, and they want to create an environment where intellectualism and diversity and curiosity and cooperation and integrity are removed. and we're entering kind of a new era that i consider kind of a cultural, intellectual, political great depression. we've got to figure out how to survive it, how to be resourceful, and how to endure and find the spots to fight back. and this is a spot where we have to fight back as americans, not just as democrats, because i've said the democrats aren't going to save us. this is another example. we need people to understand. the commander in chief has to prioritize, above all else, our national security. so every decision he makes should be, is this what's best for our

national security? is it what's best for our national security to have our political wing attacking our military? this is a great day for putin. it's a great day for our enemies. and that's what they're continuing to do, is put politics ahead of our national security. and that's why i still think we can appeal to some republicans. mitch mcconnell voted against hegseth. no one thought he would, except for those of us who've been watching him. and we have to continue to try to expand that aperture all the way down from tulsi gabbard to rfk jr. today. >> general, one of the things that i don't know if it's interesting, i don't know if it matters, but it's notable is that trump and the democrats are operating and moving around rooms as though trump won in a landslide. trump won by the narrowest margin in history. and the things he's done in the last seven days are unpopular. let me read this to you from reuters. quote, trump's approval rating slipped after his first week back in the oval office, during which he issued a slew of executive orders, according to a poll published tuesday. the

reuters poll shows that 45% of participants approve of trump's actions so far. trump's disapproval rating shot up by seven percentage points from 39% to 46% of survey takers who were displeased with his new measures. do you know what is most unpopular? that he's spent the most capital doing, seeking out revenge against his perceived enemies? and do you know what enemy perceived enemy is the most popular generals. i mean, not that you have to hope that that sort of his own political survival instincts kick in, but is the inverse also a lesson? i mean, does does a political figure need to step out from the military as the leader everyone is craving right now? >> well, it probably be a pretty good thing for it to happen. i mean, you know. most of us like mark milley, you know, we and myself, we. >> were raised. >> to be apolitical. i mean, i spent 31 years in the army. i was proud to serve for the time that i did. i never knew if my

bosses were republicans or democrats. i never knew if any of my people were. i didn't know, i didn't care. we were we were taught that civilian leadership of the military is a time honored tradition of our nation, and a bedrock of our of our democracy. and so we've always been taught to be apolitical. but, you know, in the case of general milley, i mean, he was simply speaking the truth, the truth that needed to be said and to be needed to be heard. and i think that he probably much like i am and many others who on the 6th of january 2021, said, okay, wait a minute. i mean, we've been raised to be apolitical, but now is the time to step up. i mean, because something is fundamentally wrong in our nation and, you know, are we going to wait to for our voices to be heard when the jackboots are marching down the street and our kids get enrolled in trump youth, you know, and the whole thing, i mean, is that

it's going to be too late if we wait till then. so now is the time to speak up. and i would encourage all my brethren in the military, retired military, such as myself, to speak out and to try to ensure that our democracy is protected and that assaults like this against general mark, tolerated by the american people. and we will not let allow our nation to be run down any further. we're going to stand up and our voices will be heard. >> ahead for us. elon musk's growing influence in global politics, and his endorsement of the far, far right in germany. new comments that are sending fear of a resurgence in anti-semitism as the world remembers. the horrors of the nazi party 80 years after the liberation of the auschwitz liberation of the auschwitz concentration camp. if you're living with dry amd, you may be at risk for developing geographic atrophy, or ga. ga can be unpredictable—and progress rapidly—leading to irreversible vision loss.

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>> what do. >> people, what. >> do young people. >> need to know. >> about what. >> happened to you? and millions like yourself? >> that they have to. >> know that. >> is true? >> you know. >> because it's. >> so unbelievable. >> unbelievable that. nobody can. even believe this. >> few chapters in our shared human history are darker, more barbaric, more monstrous than the holocaust. that much is clear. us to those who survive the unspeakable horrors of auschwitz, assembled survivors marked 80 years since the liberation of auschwitz. but even as the world celebrates that triumph of good over evil, some of those same dark forces and sentiments of bigotry and anti-semitism are rising and rallying anew. consider the growing popularity of one political party in particular,

afd. alternative for germany, an extreme far right coalition that has repeatedly flirted with nazi language. now consider who delivered an address to that very party one elon musk, the recent subject of a. did he or didn't he debate having to do with what was seen by some as looking an awful lot like a nazi salute and what he told afd 80 years after the liberation of auschwitz might have sounded some alarms as well. >> as like. >> frankly. >> too much of a of a. focus on on past guilt. and we need to move beyond that. people, you know, children should not be guilty of. >> the sins. >> of their parents. >> or even. >> let alone their. >> parents, their great grandparents. >> joining our conversation, staff writer for the atlantic, author of autocracy, inc, anne applebaum is here. eddie is also back. and this was always going to be a huge and heavy commemoration at auschwitz. but

there is something so unsettling in our politics. i wonder what your thoughts are today and your reporting. >> i think. >> there are two things to say. >> one. >> the importance of this. >> particular auschwitz anniversary is. >> that it's probably the last. >> one where. >> there will be. >> real survivors. i mean, there will. >> be. fewer and fewer. there are. >> very few left, but. >> there are five years of the. >> big anniversaries, five years from now, ten years from. >> now. >> there won't be any. >> and in your. >> introduction. >> i. think your. interviewee made. >> an important point. you know, without physical people, without the reality of it, it becomes there's a risk that it becomes a kind of myth that people something they read about in books. it's hard to know whether. >> it's true. >> the actual people who live there. aren't there anymore. to talk about it. and so it begins to fade away. >> as the first. >> point. >> to make. >> the second point to make is that. >> you know. >> musk's intervention. into german. >> politics is very. >> curious in a. >> number of.

>> ways. but but. >> the quote that. you had. from him. >> where he. >> says children shouldn't bear the. >> burden. >> you know, actually, i know a little bit about german schools. i was once a visiting scholar. >> in germany. >> and i had small. >> children with me, and. >> they went to. >> german schools briefly. >> and the. >> german schools. don't teach kids. >> to. >> be guilty. they just. teach them. >> what happened. >> and they teach. them the lessons. >> from it. >> and the lessons. >> being that we need to protect. >> against. >> that kind. >> of regime. >> we need to reinforce. >> liberal democracy. >> we need to remember about our, you know, we need to enforce. >> our constitution. we need. >> independent courts. >> so the things that. >> they're taught. >> are not it's not about guilt. and for musk. to interpret. >> it that. >> way, you know. >> children shouldn't feel guilty. >> means that he's he's been. influenced by. far right propaganda. and people. >> who want germany. >> to forget about it. >> and they. >> want to forget the rules, and they want to forget the lessons. and that's pretty disturbing from someone who is as prominent. >> as he. >> is in the in the new administration. >> and let me read from your

reporting on on musk and europe's challenges with him and his ideology and his power. quote, until recently, russia was the most important state seeking to undermine european institutions. now, a group of american oligarchs also want to undermine european institutions because they don't want to be regulated, and they may have the american president on their side quite soon. the european union, along with great britain and other democracies around the world, might find that they have to choose between their alliance with the united states and their ability to run their own elections and select their own leaders without the pressure of aggressive outside manipulation. you are, i think, laying down a marker for something that you probably see the signs that this is already underway. tell tell us what's been happening. >> so the. >> a lot of the germans believe. >> that the. >> reason for musk's. >> intervention in the german elections, aside from whatever affinity has for the for the alternative for germany, this is the german far right party or the german autocratic populist.

>> party that. >> one of the reasons is. >> that he. >> wants he doesn't. want his. >> company. you know, x and other. >> tech companies. >> to be regulated. >> the germans are. >> right now looking at regulating social media. sorry, i should say, not the germans, the europeans. the eu is looking more broadly at it a lot. some european countries already have some regulation. >> and what they're looking at. >> really is just about introducing more transparency. >> forcing the platforms. >> to reveal more about. >> their. >> processes. >> about their moderation, about their algorithms. >> how do the. >> algorithms work and. >> the. >> tech companies. and this. >> includes mark zuckerberg. >> at at facebook. >> and instagram, as well as others don't want to be regulated. and they're. hoping that the trump. administration will prevent that. and of course, you know, it's tied up in this question of extremism and. you know, you know, you know, the manipulated attempts

to push european countries in a particular direction. so europeans are now afraid. that american social. media companies are going to try to shape. >> their politics. >> and so they're thinking maybe they will need to regulate social media. and of. >> course. >> you now have a pushback from the social media owners. >> and this unholy alliance. i want to press both of you on what that says about our relationships with some of these same companies and individuals. i have to sneak in a quick i have to sneak in a quick break. we'll all be right my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis held me back. now with skyrizi, i'm all in with clearer skin. ♪ things are getting clearer ♪ ♪♪ ♪ yeah... i feel free ♪ ♪ to bare my skin yeah that's all me. ♪ ♪♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ ♪♪ with skyrizi 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. and most people were clearer even at 5 years. skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses.

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ad free. subscribe on apple podcasts. >> where do people find the strength to speak truth to power right now? >> you've got an administration. >> you've got a president ready. willing and able to take. legal action against people doing their jobs. >> i think in 2025. >> politically engaged people. can find the strength to make their voices heard and try. >> to help create a. >> climate of opinion that enables these institutions, these people who run these institutions, to do the right thing. >> well. >> jon meacham. >> you have certainly my. >> light tonight. >> we were victims. >> in a moral vacuum. but today, however, we all we have an obligation not only to remember, which is very, very important,

but also. to warn and to teach that hatred only begets more hatred killing, more killing. >> that just stopped me in my tracks when i read it. and then seeing it, i was just in berlin and people said, well, what was it like? i said, well, when you see a city literally torn in two, all you think about our own challenges. we better get our crap together. i mean, like, the natural extension of hate is division, and division is the enemy of a democracy. >> oh, absolutely. and the language of dehumanization that will allow. >> for and allow for the justification to. literally try to wipe a people. >> off the face of the earth. >> right. it's something that we. >> have to be mindful of from the very beginning. >> and so this attempt to. erase memory, to kind. >> of deny the ovens, to deny the barbarity. >> to deny the cruelty. >> is in some ways. >> an attempt to give license to the cruelty. >> and barbarity.

>> in our own time and our. own moment. and so. >> the issue. >> is not to think about this as a singular moment in history that cannot be matched by barbarity elsewhere, but to understand what human beings are capable. >> of. and to understand. that in our current moment allows us to look not only at what's happening in the us, what's happening in the middle east, what's happening around the world with an eye for the level. >> of. >> cruelty and the depth of evil that human beings are. >> capable of. >> and with your finger on the pulse all over the world, but especially in in ukraine and all across europe, what is your sense of sort of the unsettled feeling folks have not just around this, this anniversary, but around our shifts and our politics here? >> so it's pretty clear that. >> we're living through a moment. when a lot. >> of things. >> people took for. >> granted. >> you know, an idea about international law, a belief that in europe, borders would never

be changed by force, an accepted idea that violence is always inexcusable and it's never the way to solve political problems. >> the a lot. >> of those assumptions are dropping away. that thing. yeah. i mean, part of this was provoked by the russian invasion of ukraine, first in 2014 and then again three years ago, which i think was actually partly intended to achieve that. it was partly meant to show, look, we can do whatever we want. we don't care about your laws and your rules. you know, those are old rules. those are american rules. those are liberal rules, and we're not interested in them. and then there's but now. there's a feeling that i don't want to compare the united states to russia in any way. but there is clear evidence that we now have a lot of americans, including maybe the american president, who also don't care very much about those old ways of doing things. and so that's here. you can, you can it's almost like a noise you can hear, you know, the governments all over europe

kind of recalculating their their security, their way of understanding the world, their belief in geopolitics, their, you know, as they get used to the idea that the, the, the rules that kept europe and much of the world, or at least a part of the world stable for the last half century, might not be there anymore. >> i mean, the most, most obvious and tangible is trump's indifference to nato. and obviously it's the alliance. it's the nations and the friends that defeated this evil today that people are honoring and trying to remember in auschwitz. is that is that i mean, you're sort of describing a shift and an awareness, but there has to be just a gut punch to seeing america as indifferent about nato. no. >> and i mean, the first. clue wasn't it's not so much nato. the first thing that really shocked europeans was the trump's comments about greenland, which i think most people in the us probably treated as a joke. but then a

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>> info kit.com for all the details. >> physicians mutual, physicians mutual. >> good evening and. >> welcome to politics nation. >> tonight's lead. >> a government. >> at war. >> with itself. >> tonight. >> the new. >> trump administration finds itself deeply. embroiled in a web of conflicts of its own making. our country's closest. >> neighbors. >> canad