one of the vice chairs, pennsylvania state representative malcolm kenyatta, is here to talk about the future of the party. plus, congresswoman sara jacobs says americans will be the ones paying for trump's trade war and the real world impact of elon musk trying to dismantle the main u.s. agency for foreign aid. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's do it. when donald trump entered

office again last month, a gallup poll showed him at historically low approval ratings for a president being sworn in, with only 47% of americans approving of him, similar to the 45% after his first inauguration. now, for comparison, joe biden entered office with a 57% approval rating in this same poll because contrary to what trump and maga are saying, neither he nor his policies are popular. so how did he win the white house, and why are republicans in control of the house and senate, too? well, people dislike the democrats even more. in a recent wall street journal poll showed 60% of americans view the party unfavorably. in november, democrats lost ground with nearly every demographic group, including minorities, women, low income voters and those without college degrees. it's in this political wilderness that democrats gathered this weekend and elected a new dnc chairman in ken martin. martin is the longtime leader of the state

democratic party in minnesota, and he defeated wisconsin democratic party chairman ben winkler. ben wikler excuse me. even though wikler had the support of nancy pelosi, chuck schumer and hakeem jeffries. now martin takes over a political party in need of new leadership and, quite honestly, a new strategy. we are in a time when americans badly need a functioning opposition party to push back against this madness that we're seeing from elon musk and donald trump. but it's not just the average person asking democrats to put up more of a fight. the new york times reported on a tense call this week. six democratic governors pressed chuck schumer to be more aggressive in fighting back against trump's agenda. minnesota governor tim walz was on the call, and he argued that democrats needed to be more visible on television, presenting an alternate alternative vision of governing, not just complaining about what mr. trump is doing. that's good advice. don't just say what you're against. lay out the vision for what you're actually for now. but before the party can lay out a vision of what

they are for, they need to actually figure out what that is. last week, when the trump administration was making a big show out of deporting undocumented immigrants, democratic senator chris murphy bragged that in the first week, trump removed 7300 people. on average, biden was removing 15,000 a week. under biden, 72% of ice arrests were criminal. under trump, it's dropped to around 50%. trump is removing less people and less criminals. so what's the democratic position here? are they confronting trump because they think he's pushing racist and fascist immigration policies? or are they confronting trump because they think that democrats are better at executing those policies? but that's not the only contradiction within the democratic party. democrats are rightfully railing against oligarchy, a small group of extremely wealthy people ruling the country with its own interests in mind. but it's hard to attack the republicans for being run by oligarchs if

democrats are as well. at a dnc forum last month, ken martin was asked about this exact idea and if democrats should still take big money from billionaires. >> there are a lot of good billionaires out there that have that have been with democrats who share our values. and we will take their money, but we're not taking money from those bad billionaires. >> while democrats can't unilaterally disarm on fundraising, this billionaire issues is among many lingering questions that await democrats, and they better start coming up with answers fast, because this country is currently under attack from within. ken martin wasn't the only leader elected by dnc members this weekend. pennsylvania state representative and a good friend of the show, malcolm kenyatta, was elected as one of the party's vice chairs. he joins me now. it's great to see you again, representative. thank you for making time for us. i know it's been a busy weekend for you. let's talk about some of the issues first. give me give me a sense of how you feel, how the dnc leadership election

went. where do you come down on this issue of money in politics, trying to fight the oligarchy? >> so first of all, it's exciting to be. >> with you. >> and i will tell you, democrats left maryland, united. >> united because we understand what's at stake in this moment. >> i know. >> that there. >> are folks. >> who are, you know, spilling a lot of. >> ink, talking about the need. >> to. >> i guess, write an obituary. >> for the democratic party. >> but what. >> you saw. >> in national. harbor was not a funeral. >> for democrats. >> what you saw was a revival. >> you saw a democratic party. >> that includes. >> all 50 states and seven territories. talking. >> about what. we're going to do. >> to build a party that is. ready to win, a party that can expand, a party. >> that. >> can last. >> and has a strategic vision for the future. and you saw that with. >> a quick vote. >> to confirm. >> our. new chair, ken martin. >> somebody who has spent. a lifetime electing. democrats up and down the ballot. a lifetime understanding the needs.

>> of state parties. >> as the. just past. >> chair of asdc, which is the chair of all of our. >> state parties. >> somebody who. understands that in. >> this moment we can't spend every single day thinking about the guy in the white house. there are races that we have to win down ballot. and it was. >> one of the. >> reasons i got into this race. if we want to win. >> nationally, it's going to start with. >> investing and winning locally. >> and i think democrats. >> are doing that. >> we just saw it in iowa last week. >> let me ask you about what is happening right now with this administration and the voice of the democrats. generally speaking, the leadership of the democratic party. nbc news is confirming that the temporary protected status of hundreds of thousands of venezuelans living in the u.s. will be formally revoked by the trump administration tomorrow, with a 60 day period to end their status. after a year of taking a more conservative line on immigration and the border. how do you think democrats should handle this now going forward? >> listen. >> one. >> of the things that. democrats have to do is to take. control

of congress. i think. >> we are. >> in a position where. >> you just saw in this last. >> election. >> democrats actually netted a seat in. >> the house. >> one of the most important things that we can do nationally is make hakeem jeffries the next speaker of the house. but i also think that in this moment, we. >> have to. >> shift our communications paradigm. so much of the conversation. around politics in. general is politician a. says something, politician b. says something, and then the story is about that argument. the reality is the policies that are coming out of this administration impact real people in their real lives. impact the very folks that you are talking about, people who were granted temporary status to be here because of the crisis happening in their in. their country, people who are coming here for a. >> better life. >> you know. one of donald trump's biggest donors himself is an immigrant to this country. we have to have a sane policy at the border that keeps our families, you know, safe, that deals with fentanyl, that makes

sure we have a fair, humane legal process. but i think in this moment, the democratic party is. >> going to. >> be doing everything we can to not center politicians, but to center people. when donald trump did his illegal executive order last. week to try to shut down grants. >> and funding. >> coming from the federal government, and i asked people on my social media to respond to me and talk about what that meant. if you weren't able to drop your kid off at head start, what it meant, if you were worried about your medicare and medicaid, and we're going to use the platform of the democratic party to lift up those stories. this is not about politician versus politician. this is about. >> one guy. >> in the white house who does not give a damn about what is happening with working people, and working people deserve an opportunity for that story to. >> be heard. >> as you probably are very aware, sir, after the election, there was some criticism, even within the democratic party, that the democratic party had been focused on identity politics. it's something that the republicans have obsessed over and tried to paint the

democratic party as obsessed with that. they are just focused on identity politics, and they spent millions of dollars playing that up among ordinary americans. is that a legitimate concern on the left? how do you feel the dnc is addressing this issue going forward? >> listen, i just want folks to understand that the first thing this new administration did when they came in wasn't try to lower the cost of eggs, wasn't to try to make it easier for. people who are sick to have security, that they can go and get the medical care that they need. wasn't trying to stand up for our veterans or ensure that seniors could stay in their house. one of the first things they did was pardon violent january 6th insurrectionists folks, many of whom have gone on. already to commit new crimes or to be rearrested for crimes that they had not yet been prosecuted for. if you look at what happened on what i've called doctor king's worst birthday ever. look at who was

standing behind the guy who's in the white house right now. a cadre of billionaires who were sitting in front of the cabinet to make it crystal clear who this administration is centering. ken martin is in this. the other vice chairs who were elected, our leadership team is in this because many of them have stories just like mine. i grew up in a working poor family in north philly, very both of my parents, by the time i was 27, because they didn't have access to the type of health care everybody deserves. every holiday season, me and my sisters and my brother, we don't have a family home to go back to because we moved multiple times. the democratic party gives a damn about families like mine. that's what we're focused on. i refuse to spend the next four years somehow apologizing for being a democrat, somehow buying into this narrative that our best days are behind us. they are not. but i also refuse to spend the next four years talking about every crazy thing that comes out of 1600 pennsylvania avenue. democrats did so much

better downballot than, you know, the 1.3% or whatever it was difference that we saw at the top of the ticket. and i think it's going to be incumbent on us to tell those stories. my sister said something that i'll never forget, that donald trump lies with more confidence than democrats. tell the truth, and we are going to tell the truth. we are the party of working people and working families, and we're going to spend every single day reminding the american people of just that. and i'm excited to get to work under the leadership of our new chair. >> let me ask you again really quickly about just foreign policy and not not to relitigate the past in the election, but looking forward. there was a yougov poll that came out after the election that showed this. kamala harris paid the price for not breaking with biden on gaza, 29% of nonvoters who supported biden in 2020 said u.s. support for the genocide was the top reason they sat out the 2024 election. looking forward is the democratic party and certainly under the leadership of this current dnc, prepared to take a more firm stance on this issue. israel and palestine. >> listen, you're right. we're not going to relitigate the 2024

election. but i will say, one of the things that kamala harris said throughout that campaign, that she wasn't going to be silent about the pain and suffering that all of us have witnessed in gaza and before the president and vice president left, they negotiated a ceasefire, cease fire that is bringing hostages home every single day, and a cease fire that, i hope means a continued relief of the pain, the starvation, the destruction that we've seen. and this is a party that understands that we have to listen to everybody. this is a party that's not going to allow safe harbor for anybody who wants to engage in hate, be that anti-semitism, be that islamophobia, be that these folks who want to pick on people for who they are and how they identify. this is a party that cares about working people and working families. you know, i didn't want to come on the show and tell my husband what i got him for valentine's day, but i decided him to get something

expensive. i got him a dozen eggs because that's one of the most expensive things you can get right now. so i hope, baby, you don't. you don't cook all of them at once. that's what we need to be focused on. >> all right. pennsylvania state representative and newly elected vice chair of the democratic national committee, malcolm kenyatta, it's great to have you on the show. we look forward to having many conversations with you anytime. next, congresswoman sara jacobs of california tells us who will pay for the price of trump's tariff tantrums. >> lumify. >> it's kind. >> of amazing. >> wow. >> lumify eye drops. dramatically reduce redness. >> in one minute and look at the difference. my eyes look brighter and whiter. >> for up to eight hours. >> lumify really works. >> see for yourself. >> why you who? >> you're making everything orange. >> we're showing we're consumer. >> cellular gets great coverage. >> we use the same powers as big. >> wireless. >> so you get the. >> same coverage. >> same coverage. >> w prilosec knows, for a fire...

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now infamous oath keepers. >> stewart rhodes. >> the third he was going to save. america from the end of the world. >> the big lie. >> is that there was some concerted plan near the. capitol and. >> it just wasn't. >> stewart was becoming. >> increasingly unstable. >> people are gravitating to him like a son. i bet everything on him being locked away forever. >> we may. >> have short. >> term, some. >> little pain and people understand that. but long term, the united states has been ripped off by virtually every country in the world. we have deficits with almost every country, not every country, but almost. >> that was president trump tonight. on the pain americans will feel from his tariffs on canada, mexico and china. what a confession from the guy who ran on lowering grocery store prices

and bringing down inflation in december. he said that's why he won the election, because democrats didn't understand that americans don't want to turn off their heat in order to buy two apples. joining me now is democratic congresswoman sara jacobs of california. congresswoman, it's great to have you back on the show. what are your what do you make of that statement from president trump and his candid admission? >> i mean, the. >> fact of the matter is. >> american consumers are going to be the ones who are paying the cost of trump's tariffs. >> that's how tariffs work. it's the u.s. importer. who pays the tax and. >> then passes. >> it along to the american consumer. and so we're. going to see the price of gas go up. we're going to see the price of. >> housing go up. >> because of the materials like. >> lumber and steel that we won't be able. to import. we're going to see so many costs go up. >> for american families who are. >> already struggling to make ends meet. >> and so. >> i. >> guess i'm. >> glad that trump has acknowledged it. but the

american people. >> are. >> not going to benefit from this. they are going to be paying higher costs and to do what trump says. this is to. >> address fentanyl. >> but he has a fundamental misunderstanding of. >> actually the fentanyl crisis. so i represent san diego, the border. >> and i can tell you that 99%. >> of people who bring fentanyl across the border are u.s. citizens. and in fact, when we cut down legal traffic, travel across the border and asylum, we actually saw an increase in fentanyl deaths in 2020 and 2021. and so this is going to raise costs for the american consumer. and it's. >> not going. >> to address the fentanyl crisis, which is what he says he's trying to do. so i'm not i'll be honest. >> i. >> don't quite understand what what. >> he's. doing here. >> yeah. so i mean, you know, echoing trump, you've got republican congressman byron donalds of florida saying that the risks with these tariffs are worth it because of a massive amount of fentanyl that you were just talking about coming into the us. give me your reaction to how they're framing that and how democrats kind of counter that message and counter that

narrative that this price is worth it because they're going after drugs. even though in a statement we played earlier, trump says, you know, this is about banking and canada not being able to have american banks there, and also retaliation against mexico for its immigration policies or not securing the border. it's just all over the place. >> yeah. look, the fentanyl crisis is real. and way too many people in. >> this country. >> are dying from fentanyl overdoses. i have talked to way too many parents who have lost their kids to fentanyl, and this is something we need to address. but tariffs on mexico. and canada are not the way to address the fentanyl crisis. again, 99% of fentanyl is carried across the border by u.s. citizens, which means there's not much that mexico or. >> canada can do. >> about that. now, what we do need is actually to cooperate with mexico and canada, to work together to get the inputs, address the inputs that are coming to those countries to make sure that we're working together on, on, you know, the

kinds of intelligence and law enforcement that will actually address this crisis. but instead, trump is. picking a trade war with these countries, which will hinder the kind of collaboration and cooperation that we need to actually address this very real fentanyl crisis. >> homeland security secretary kristi noem said today on meet the press that if prices go up, it's because of the reaction to america's laws. canada's prime minister justin trudeau and mexico's president sheinbaum both emphasized that they felt like these are retaliatory tariffs that they're going to have to implement is their only choice. do you blame them? do you blame mexico and canada for taking actions like these? >> i do not blame them. >> and in. >> fact, you know. >> i think. >> that if our leaders were in their. >> shoes. >> they would be doing the exact same thing. and that's what i'm worried about, because in addition to the cost the american consumers are. >> going to pay. >> from the tariffs we're putting on, they're also going to pay a higher cost for other

goods with the retaliatory tariffs, if they can even access them. so i don't know, say goodbye to your avocado toast and your tequila, not to mention the fact that we import a lot of oil every day from canada and mexico. i'm sure that that's going. >> to be. >> something that they're. >> going to cut off. >> like we are going to see real pain. and again, it's not actually going to address the fentanyl crisis. >> what do you think democrats can be doing about this right now? i mean, is there anything that they can do? i know there's been new leadership at the dnc, as you probably saw in my earlier segment with the vice chair, malcolm kenyatta. but what do you think the dnc and the democrats should be doing as this policy gets underway, hurting ordinary americans? >> well. unlike many. of the other things. >> trump is trying to do, he actually does have the authority to implement these tariffs. and so from like a purely statutory perspective, we're not going to see the same kind of response that we're seeing on other issues. however, this is where it's so important that we work

with everyone and that people are very vocal about the higher costs that they're paying, because i think when trump really feels the outrage of the american people, he's going. >> to have. >> to walk these back. and so we're going to have to make sure that. >> he is. >> hearing and feeling and seeing how much this is hurting the american people. >> all right. congresswoman sara jacobs, please stick around. i want to ask you about the trump administration's freeze on administration's freeze on foreign aid when we come back. —hi! —hi! ♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. ♪♪ with the chase mobile app, things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily and send money quickly. [coins clinking] ♪♪ that's convenience from chase. make more of what's yours.

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secure systems. those included personnel files, security clearance information for agency employees, and classified systems that are beyond the security level of at least some doge workers who attempted to access it. democratic congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez responded to the news, posting on x, quote, this is a five alarm fire. the people elected donald trump to be president, not elon musk. having an unelected billionaire with his own foreign debts and motives, raiding us classified information is a grave threat to national security. democratic congresswoman sara jacobs is back with me. congress. congresswoman, excuse me. i'd like you to respond to all of this. i mean, these are funds you, as a member of congress, approved and allocated, not somebody in doge to decide who gets and who doesn't. what do you make of how all of this has gone down? is it even legal? >> it is not legal. and it is a clear attack on our constitution, right? the constitution is very clear that congress has the power of the purse. congress is who gets to

decide spending. not to mention that usaid, while it was originally created through an executive order by john f kennedy during the cold war, it was later codified into statute. and so it is law that usaid has to be its own agency and has to exist. and so the president or elon musk or anyone else can't just do whatever they want. these are laws in place for a reason, and i am i totally agree with what alexandria said, because this is a real threat to our democracy, to our constitution, and it's a threat to our national security. this access to classified information, but also because the work that usaid does around the world is incredibly important to our national security. it helps prevent threats. it helps prevent diseases. it's a really important part of how we keep americans safe. and decimating it is going to make us less safe. >> one doctor who received a stop work order told propublica,

quote, i've never seen anything that scares me as much as this. you're on the house foreign affairs committee. just talk to me a little bit about what the global implications of this pause on foreign assistance means for an organization like usaid. i don't think many americans necessarily know what the organization does. perhaps it has a bad reputation globally to those who don't know what it exactly does. but you tell us what you know about what this organization does. >> yeah, absolutely. and i used to work in this field before i came to congress. so i can say that the work of usaid is incredibly important. let's first talk about, on a human level. people rely on food assistance and humanitarian assistance from usaid to live. you're literally seeing doctors and aid workers having to choose which babies to feed because they are no longer getting the. money to feed starving babies. i traveled to chad recently and

met with sudanese refugees there. and these are sudanese refugees who are fleeing horrific conflict, who are fleeing genocide, who rely on food assistance to survive. that's what we're talking about getting cut now beyond the human level. this is really important for our national security, because this is how we make sure that we are one looking at preventing diseases that could come to the united states and get us sick here in the united states. it's also an important way for us to show other countries and show other people why american leadership in the world is so important. and if we stop doing that, if we leave, you're going to see the prc and other strategic competitors come in and fill that vacuum that we're leaving, which is incredibly dangerous. i mean, there's a reason that jfk created usaid during the cold war, and it's because it is a strategically important part of our national security. >> all right. congresswoman sara jacobs, greatly appreciate your insights this evening. thank you for joining us. next up, i'll

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left. not enough. i got. >> an idea. >> we made a mistake. we put the entire ship at risk. >> wait for. >> it. >> now. last breath. rated pg 13 only in theaters february 28th. >> we saw elon musk take kind of a powerful role. did anything about how he wielded his power surprise you? do you not need a katrina level type of response that is rebuilding to make sure it won't happen again? you've obviously made a decision to resign. are there any lessons that can be learned as you're talking to members of your congregation, what do you tell them about how to stand up for their own moral beliefs, but still find grace in this moment? >> at least one of the last hospitals standing in central gaza shut down late friday night, a international medical corps field hospital was forced to discharge all patients, regardless of their status, and lay off all staff. that

facility, along with another one in the area, were financially supported by humanitarian agency usaid. the two of them together provided critical life saving care for tens of thousands of palestinians. each month. hundreds of thousands of people use their services in the last year alone. the reason for the abrupt closure, the trump administration's freeze on foreign aid and stop work orders for humanitarian groups not just in gaza, but all around the world. i'm joined now by doctor adam hamoui, a former u.s. army combat trauma surgeon and plastic surgeon. he's speaking to me live from nasser hospital in khan younis, inside the gaza strip. doctor hammam, it's great to have you back on the show. we wanted to talk to you because you are seeing firsthand the impact of this, this freeze from usaid. talk to us about that impact and what you're seeing right now firsthand. what does it mean for palestinians to lose access to this hospital in central gaza right now? >> thank you for having me again. yes. i mean, this was an.

abrupt notice. many doctors work at this hospital. and this is, again, a. >> field hospital. where really. >> it's. >> out with the refugees. that are like, you know, still without any kind of resources. >> and it. >> first is a is a, you know. >> it. >> stops the care that is. like there's no infrastructure here right now. there's very little. >> health care available. >> like doctors offices. >> there's no primary care. there's only. >> a few. >> hospitals that are still partially functioning. and this removes again more of that infrastructure that's there. and then many of these doctors also relied on this for their income. they're not getting paid. they're volunteering in. the hospitals like i'm working at at nasser or, you know, just not able to support themselves without these extra sources. of work and income like the imc. >> so they're. >> now looking at what they're going to do next. they just keep

getting one hit after the other. so it was a shock to everyone. >> i know that you have volunteered in war zones for decades, so you have more than just your experience in gaza. talk to us a little bit about that. what kind of impact do you think this ban on aid will have in countries around the world, and what are the consequences for the patients? what position does that put doctors like yourself and staff in in other parts of the world? >> well, it. >> stresses the system even more. i mean, there's few doctors trying to do, you know, the work that is required. and, you know. >> the. >> basically you have, you know, increased disease, increased suffering, you have basically one of the things that usaid does is it increases the status of the united states around the world. that's why people like the united states, because of the aid that we provide. and here in gaza, where on one side we were supporting the bombing

and israel, and at the same time we were providing a little bit of aid. now when they need it the most, when it's time to rebuild, when there's a little cease fire, when we can kind of show a little of our goodwill, we're removing that, you know, carpet from under them. and people are confused. they don't. understand why this is happening and why this is happening. now. >> let me pull out a little bit from the conversation of usaid, because you are in gaza, and it's rare to get to speak to doctors and aid workers inside the strip. you've been in gaza before. how do the conditions that you're seeing now amidst this cease fire, compare to what you saw last year? >> so things are definitely better, but that is a. >> very low. >> bar to try to beat. the bombing has stopped and people are beginning to actually be able to breathe and try to rebuild. people last week started moving to their homes and finding everything devastated. it looks apocalyptic it. i was driving in when i came

in and you know, rafah, which i came through the first time, was now completely leveled. it was standing when i first came through it, and it looks like a scene out of like a, you know, post-nuclear war movie. and now all the, you know, the health care that's been delayed over the last year and a half is coming out. so you have people with diseases that haven't been taken care of, children that were born with cleft lip and palate, people who needed surgery that have been putting it off because of the war, and then also all the reconstruction, not only of the buildings but of the people as well. people sustained injuries that, you know, just received basically damage control surgery and now need to have other surgeries to kind of correct them, you know. you know, you know, burns that need excisions scar contractures, people with

facial fractures that i'm taking care of now, that need to kind of have their face reconstructed again. so that road to recovery is just beginning right now. and even though i'm taking care of a better, you know, set of patients in terms of like, they're not really getting bombed anymore, there's still a lot of work to do. >> do you get a sense that this ceasefire and, and, and among the people that you speak to or interact with that the ceasefire is temporary? are people bracing themselves for what might resume if this fragile ceasefire breaks? i mean, that must be a psychological fear that many live in. >> everyone is very cautious about being too optimistic, but that is not something that they haven't experienced in the past. you know, many of them joke, you know, we're in gaza, we're used to war. and so they are taking

this opportunity to rebuild. and they're, you know, doing everything they can. they've returned to their homes. they started putting it together, but they are not naive that this might not last long. >> and let me ask you, finally, do you have a sense of how patients are allowed to leave the gaza strip right now? we know we saw yesterday some children are allowed to evacuate into egypt. but as a doctor there, how does this process play out? because we know there are thousands of children who need medical care that are unable to get it in gaza, but their ability to get out is contingent on israeli military approval as well as the egyptians. >> yes. i mean, it's a process. i mean, you have to apply. there's a list of, you know, thousands of children and people, i mean, and adults as well, that need care that we cannot provide here and especially with children. the

problem isn't just getting the permission for the child itself, but who's going to go with the child? we were taking care of a seven year old here like, you know, in the icu right next to us that needed to leave. and she was approved to go yesterday, but not her mother. and so, you know, there's a joy that you could actually go and get care. but now you have to separate with your family. and for someone who's like 7 or 5 years old who has to leave, and now her mother can't go with her, it's another, you know, psychological stress for the entire family. that's completely unnecessary. >> all right. doctor adam hamoui live for us in gaza. doctor, i appreciate you joining us. i know it's early there. thank you for staying up late for us. >> thank you. >> next up, a preview of the msnbc films documentary airing tonight. king of the apocalypse the inside story on the rise of oath keepers stewart rhodes. >> work, play. blink. relief.

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pardons for more than 1500 january 6th rioters, he also set free some of the most notorious leaders of the far right movement in this country. among them was stewart rhodes, the founder of the right wing anti-government militia, the oath keepers. here he was, just 18 days after his 18 year prison sentence was commuted on stage behind trump at a las vegas rally. rhodes is the subject of a new msnbc films documentary airing tonight after this show called king of the apocalypse the inside story on the rise of oath keepers. stewart rhodes, the director of the film, says it's not just political, it's also a shakespearean tragedy due to his shifting relationships with his now estranged and de-radicalised family members. here's a quick look. >> people are gravitating to him like a son. >> the big lie is that there was some concerted plan. >> into the capitol. >> there wasn't. >> i kept. >> thinking, i. >> hope we all live through this. i hope we all live. >> through this. >> the government's evidence. >> showed that defendant stewart rhodes began planning. >> to oppose.

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top senior fbi officials involved in the january 6th cases. the doj also requested a list of all fbi employees who worked on probes connected to those cases. there are thousands of names on that list, and based on nbc's reporting, that list has not been turned over by acting fbi director brian driscoll. he reportedly told white house and doj proxies to f off when he first got that request. now, this comes after some far right insurrectionists pardoned by donald trump said they wanted the president to seek revenge on their behalf. among them, this guy, the oath keepers founder stewart rhodes, who said he hopes the president's pick for fbi director kash patel would clean house at the bureau. he is the subject of a new msnbc films documentary airing right after this show, called king of the apocalypse the inside story on the rise of oath keepers stewart rhodes i'm joined now by tasha adams, ex-wife of stewart rhodes, someone who knows him very well. tasha, it's great to have you on the show. what are

your. >> i appreciate. >> it. >> thank you, thank you. what are your feelings now that trump has commuted stewart's sentence? i mean, there's a really powerful scene in the film where you reacted in real time to stewart's conviction and cried tears of joy. how are you feeling now that he's out of prison? >> yeah, it's just exactly what everyone might think. i mean, it just it was like getting punched, you know, even though it was something we expected after the election. yeah. i mean, just so much time and energy and to finally see stewart face a consequence for once and then to just have it all go away and it's i try not to, i don't know, feel defeated or despondent, but it's, it's really hard not to at this point. >> do you feel besides being despondent. do you feel afraid,

you know, either personally for the way you're coming out now and speaking out about him, or do you feel afraid for the future of the country? >> i feel afraid for all of it. i am personally pretty afraid. i mean, it's i know that he might be on his best behavior, you know, temporarily. but, you know, we also had 40,000 dues paying members in that, in that militia. so, you know, personal safety is definitely something of a concern for me and my, my kids, for the entire country. my fear all along is that if he were to get out, if he weren't sentenced for, you know, a particularly long sentence, if he just got a slap on the hand, i knew that he would regroup and do this all over again. and in fact, he was writing a substack from prison called the oath keepers. he was already rebuilding for step two, and whatever that may be, you know,

who knows? >> take me back for a moment, if you will, about your experience being married to him. i mean, you're talking about him rebuilding, but did you ever imagine his group could even turn into what it became? this 40,000? you know, paying group of militiamen? >> i really didn't, but at the same time, i mean, when it did take off, i mean. i mean, it was shocking to me. i guess you could say that he he first started it, and i really thought, you know, this is it was almost embarrassing. he wrote up this whole blog post about the ten orders we will not obey as military men and police officers. and it was. it seemed ridiculous, oddly enough, and ironically enough, it's filled with the types of things we're seeing now. you know, concentration camps and, you know, things, you know, we'll never allow this on american soil. and to me, it seemed silly. and yet it went viral

overnight. i didn't understand at the time. it was full of, you know, dog whistles to, you know, the conspiracy, right. to the prepper movement. there were things in there that immediately brought them all on board that i just didn't understand at the time. words like fema camps and that type of thing. i was surprised how seriously people took it. i was surprised when he started making the rounds on, on, you know, on news shows. i was surprised when he was the front page of the, you know, the las vegas review-journal over and over again. it was just yeah, it was not what i expected. but at the same time, he also, you know, portrayed it as something different than what it was. you know, that it was this group of, of people who had sworn an oath and they were going to try to, you know, hold police and military to the oath that they swore. and what could you know? how could that be bad? it sounds good. yeah. you know,

but i mean, i guess we all know where it went eventually. and i do believe that that was his goal all along. it wasn't that he he got more and more radical. it was that that that was his goal. you from the beginning. i do believe now. >> yeah. you speak in the documentary about how harrowing it was to be with him near the end of your marriage. there's a moment in the film where you said you spoke with your lawyer about an escape plan. you referred to it as the try not to die plan. take us through that experience. and what switched for you personally? i mean, at what moment? at what point was there a threshold that you crossed that you realized, hey, i got to get out of this situation. something is not right here. >> i mean, really, it boiled down to and i'm trying to say this, i can feel the lawyers going, stop talking. but i mean, in reality, it really was that kind of feeling. it was it was a trying not to die plan. and it really got to the point where this is, this is dangerous. and

there was that fear of, we can't get out of this, it's too dangerous to get out of this. and then became that tipping point of we're going to die anyway. you know, someone's going to die. if we don't get out, we might die trying to get out, but we're going to die anyway. and that was what i felt was the situation, you know, the kind of situation we were in. >> stuart has had a big impact on the community you lived in. i believe when you spoke out against him, how did the community respond? >> i'm going to say at first there was quite a bit of there was a bit of cold shoulders effect. but i think that that has since sort of died down. i mean, also, we were coming out of a situation where every single person we knew was in the movement. right. and so now i'm only dealing with these people when i go to the store and that

type of thing. so i mean, it was it was definitely a cold effect at first. but as we started talking and getting more personal and sharing our story, i do believe that tide turned quite a bit over time. >> tasha adams, thank you so much for sharing your story with us and being a part of this documentary. greatly appreciate it. it's important for all americans to see it, so we greatly appreciate you. >> thank you. >> and thank you for making time for us. i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. make sure to catch ayman here on msnbc each saturday and sunday at 7 p.m. eastern. you can find us on blue sky and instagram at msnbc. make sure you can listen to every episode of ayman as a podcast by scanning the qr code there on your screen. don't go anywhere. as promised, king of the as promised, king of the apocalypse starts right now. (machine powering up) (clicking noise) (whistling music) man: yep. there we go.