yeah, it is weird that we still call these things phones. well, yeah. they're more like mini computers. precisely, next slide. xfinity mobile customers are connected to wifi 90% of the time. that's why our network has powerboost with wifi speeds up to a gig where you need it most. so, this whole meeting could have been remote? oh, that is my ex-husband who i don't speak to. hey! no, i'm good to talk! xfinity internet customers, cut your mobile bill in half for your first year with xfinity mobile. plus, ask how to get the new samsung galaxy s25+ on us.

(800) 403-7539. that's one (800) 403-7539. >> hi there everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a quote, counterintelligence disaster. that's how one former intelligence official is describing a stunning new move by the trump administration that could have compromised the identities of countless staffers at the country's top spy agency. nbc news is confirming news that was first reported by the new york times reports that the cia has sent a list of all recent hires in an unclassified email as part of its effort to comply with an executive order trimming the federal workforce. >> that list. >> included the first names and first initials. >> of the last. >> names of everyone hired in the last. >> two years. meaning that list. >> is a. >> potential gold. >> mine. >> for america's adversaries. one former senior intelligence official telling nbc news this,

quote, any foreign intelligence service worth its weight could apply research and analytic tools to marry up these names. and initials with other public records to identify and target many of them. and the new york times is reporting that the list quote includes a. >> large crop. >> of young analysts and operatives who were hired specifically to focus on china, and whose identities are usually closely. >> guarded. >> because chinese hackers are constantly seeking to identify them, compounding the fears that the list could get into the wrong hands. news that we've been reporting on in the last few days here that elon musk and his team, people. with zero government experience and no expertise in handling classified information, have been burrowing their way into practically every government agency. new york times is. reporting this, quote. some former officials said they worried that the list could be passed on to a team of newly hired young software experts working with elon musk and his

government efficiency team. >> if that. >> happens, the names of the employees might be more easily targeted by china or russia or other foreign intelligence services. the breaking news this afternoon of a trump administration initiative, potentially endangering the identities of staffers at the cia is where we start today. with us for the hour is sarah longwell. >> she's the publisher. >> of the bulwark and host of the podcast the focus group. also joining us for the hour, msnbc national affairs analyst john heilemann. >> here at. >> the table, he's the chief political columnist for puck, the host of the podcast impolitic. but we start with the ranking member of the house intelligence committee, congressman jim himes of connecticut. congressman, tell me what you understand. about this list and the. employees on it. >> well, yeah. nicole, it's been a bad day for the cia, an agency i care a lot about. >> not only. >> is this. you know. list of.

>> names out there. so unnecessary. >> right? it is so easy. >> to convey. >> these kinds. of things through classified channels. >> so it's an absolutely. >> unnecessary boon. >> to foreign intelligence services. >> but two, i'm. >> sure you've. >> also heard about. >> the blanket. >> retirement offer that was offered to every. >> cia employee. look, i get the director's. >> desire to try. >> to. >> reorient the. >> cia towards china. we've been doing that for many years. what are we going to do when. >> three of our very best china. analysts fluent in mandarin. >> with, you. >> know, two. >> years. >> worth of work. >> to get them their. >> security clearances. >> decide to take this. >> retirement package. >> so again, a. >> tough. >> day for national security. but to answer your question directly. look, it is. >> not hard when. >> you combine. >> let's imagine that the. >> chinese see that somebody named bob. s bob. >> smith is on that list. >> not hard to get. >> credit. >> card records. >> for northern virginia. >> not hard to look at residences or voter registration rolls or facebook pages. that indicate where. >> you live to figure out who. >> somebody is, even if their

name is slightly masked. >> so yeah, this is. as your person put it, anybody worth their salt could pretty easily get to actual names. >> and these. >> are. people who. >> in many. >> instances will have. >> spent, you know. >> years in. >> training and. >> arguably years in getting. >> security clearances. >> so just, you know, an absolute. >> unnecessary counterintelligence. >> risk was assumed today. >> let me let me share the wall street journal reporting. >> about the buyout with our viewers. >> this was first reported. by the. >> wall street journal. the cia offered buyouts to its entire workforce tuesday, in what officials said is a bid to bring the agency in line with trump's priorities, including targeting drug cartels. the agency is also freezing the hiring of job seekers already given a conditional offer, an aide to cia director john ratcliffe said some are likely to be rescinded if the applicants don't have the right background for the agency's new goals, which include trump's trade war and undermining china. it feels like the undermining of china is inconsistent with the list that

was created of new analysts focused on china. have you been given any explanation for why the names on the list were put on the list, other than they were hired in the last two years? >> no. >> not at all. again, the committee has not yet received any information on this, but. >> you can bet we'll be. >> requesting information. you know, the. >> example i just used. >> as long as we're talking about the chinese. >> you know. >> who's worth their weight in gold? >> the young. >> person who. >> is fluent in. >> mandarin and cantonese. who was born in. >> this. >> country, but who. is culturally familiar. >> with china. >> that person. >> is somebody we are going to invest. >> an immense. >> amount of money in. >> we are. >> going to hire into the cia, and. >> they are going to be. >> single handedly. >> critical to our national security. >> and it is now possible. >> in my. >> previous example. >> i used. >> bob s. >> i'm i'm guessing. >> that there's a reasonable probability that. >> somebody who grew up in a. >> culturally chinese. family

may not have such a. >> common first name. >> it is now very possible that the. >> chinese know who. >> that individual might be. >> do we. >> know how many people were covert individuals? and i guess i asked that because a list with names, you know, sometimes cia employees try to blend in with an embassy workforce, and sometimes they're posted all over the world. i mean, do we know has mr. ratcliffe fielded any questions or offered any reassurances that these individuals knew their names would be put on an unclassified list and shared with the trump white house? >> yeah. >> again, what. >> a what an. >> unnecessary mistake, right? >> there are just. >> it is so. >> easy to send. >> classified information from one. >> government agency. >> to the other. so this. >> to me was just. >> a it. >> appears to have been done because. >> of inattention. and i'll make another point because, yes, you know, somebody who's going to spend their career as. >> an. >> analyst, you. >> know. >> primarily sitting in. >> the washington metropolitan area. >> their cover. matters less.

>> than somebody who is maybe going to. >> operate under non-official cover. non-official cover means they're. not covered by diplomatic immunity. there's a little bit of a spectrum of risk. >> and importance of cover there. >> but guess what? that analyst who may be spending most of their career in the washington metropolitan area, will from time to time meet with people in cafes or elsewhere around the world who have much, much. more valuable. and dangerous covers. so again, nothing good to be said about what we saw. >> happen today. >> i want. >> to just play a little bit of an interview i did with sue gordon in 2022 about what this was, when it was widely believed that trump would run for president again, trump was sort of always going to run for president again because he never conceded his defeat in 2020. let me just play this for you. it had some particular resonance for me today. my experience. >> is, is. >> that the former. >> president. >> has his.

>> agenda and. >> he will use whatever is. >> at his. >> disposal to. >> advance that. the problem. >> we. >> have here. >> is that depending. on what. >> agenda issues. >> forth he. >> has had. >> at his disposal for a. >> long period of time. >> information that if he used that information to advance an. >> agenda item. >> it could have devastating. >> consequences to national security. but i can't think of a simpler way to say why. i think. >> that this moment. >> is so difficult. and that's. >> because there's. >> no justification. >> and knowing. >> who he. >> is. >> and that he. >> doesn't fully. >> understand. >> but he. >> may not. decide to protect. >> if he wanted to do. >> something different. >> so that's the. >> former director of national intelligence, sue gordon, and

the it is the. >> intelligence product. >> but listening to her say in 2022, after trump was indicted for mishandling national defense information, the mar-a-lago documents. case saying no knowing who he is and that he doesn't fully understand he may not decide to protect it if he wanted to do something different, i guess i, i wanted to share that with you. as someone who has taken an oath but is in the minority as as a member of the democratic party, what is. owed to these individuals whose first and first initial, their last names is now circulating in an unclassified list in washington? >> well, nicole. >> they take some of the same. >> risks that our men. >> and. >> women in uniform take. they and often with less protection. right. because they are, by definition, certainly the ones that are operational. the case officers who are operating in very, very. dangerous places around the world. they are living undercover. >> if they. >> are discovered. >> and especially. >> those that don't. >> have diplomatic immunity. i

mentioned them earlier. >> you know. >> it can be curtains. >> for them. >> and that's why we. >> go to such. >> lengths, especially. >> in this world of digital dust. >> meaning wherever you. >> move with. >> a cell. >> phone, wherever you swipe. >> a credit card. >> wherever you use a debit card. >> there is a record. that in. >> theory, somebody can get. >> that's why we. >> go to. >> such great lengths to make sure that. >> you. >> know, our trainees are not buying gas. >> you know. >> the gas station next. >> to headquarters in. >> langley, virginia. we really go to great lengths. and what's so painful about this episode is, again, it's just not that hard to convey classified information. >> from one government department. >> to the other. so we've put. >> a lot of people needlessly. >> at risk here. >> and young people, young people at the start of. >> their careers. >> these are people who, if they do well, are going to spend decades keeping. >> the american people safe. and now, over the course of. >> that many. >> decade career, they'll. >> wonder. >> they'll wonder, you know, has my cover been compromised? >> i mean, john hamlin, you have thousands of names of fbi agents potentially on a list for having worked on cases involving the

january 6th insurrection, a crime that took place on tv, a mission dictated by the leaders of the fbi and doj. it is hard not to connect list making across government agencies. we now have a list circulating of cia staffers. >> yeah. >> and. >> well, so much to say about all of that. >> you know, i keep. >> thinking about all of these. the list. making is always there's a reason why you. >> make the list. >> first to make the list. before you do. >> the purge. >> you know, the list is. the predicate for the purge. you got to know who's on the list before you purge them. >> right. >> and the purges are among the many categories of. >> things that are. >> troubling about troubling or worse, about what's been happening over the last. >> two weeks. >> it's only been. >> two weeks. it's only been two. >> weeks. >> two weeks and three. >> days on. january 20th. it's like two weeks and three days or two and a half weeks. >> those are. >> this category. >> the purges, you know. are

there's an element of it that. is troubling because of the retribution, the retributive qualities of it. right. but there's the broader, the. >> broader, more. >> profoundly troubling elements of it are. >> about this thing that. >> that that is the. >> through line in every one of these stories. >> all of them. i could. >> draw it all the way to gaza. >> if you want, which is the. extension of the unitary. executive beyond unitary. to the omnipotent executive, to. >> the, to. >> the unchallengeable executive, to the, to the, to the imperial executive. it is the. i am in charge. what i say goes. no one dare challenge me and. >> i'm going to test. >> the bounds. >> will hold. >> government that we built in a constitution that was meant to be. >> tripartite. >> balance of powers, checks and balances. >> to. >> which the president. >> is basically saying. >> on a micro level. >> and a macro level and a meta

level. not anymore. i like we. >> are going. to do what we are going. >> to do. and if you want to try to stop us, come on. >> and he's trying to figure. >> out how far. >> he can go. >> and as long as there's no. >> resistance, he's just going to keep going. >> sarah. >> what is the what, if any? i mean, it seems that one of the braking systems that still exist and i'm and i think in the first term we talked about guardrails. there are none i mean, i think colin's right there are no guardrails this time. but there are some things that that seem capable of slowing him. one is the federal courts. there's now an indefinite injunction on his desire to end birthright citizenship. there still seems to be some sensitivity in some quarters. to bad press. and there has been a world of bad press. >> around the. >> potential purge of thousands of fbi employees who are the very people that if you take trump at his word, which i don't often, but he says he wants to focus on, you know, drug

cartels. well, you need the fbi. you're going to do that with any success. >> so where. >> are the opportunities to slow down this pursuit that john describes? >> yeah. well, look, i think that democrats have kind of been casting. around looking for a way to kind of find their footing on messaging. this is one of those places. obviously, we are all worried. about what it means for the individuals who are named. but this is about national security. this is about the american people. you have got to go on offense and explain to the american people they are being made less safe every. day by the incompetence of this administration. and, you know, this story has a couple of elements to it. number one, there's a pattern, right? donald trump has been exposing us to national security risks by his mishandling of classified information for a long time now. we've seen him do it. he just leaves things lying around a bathroom in mar-a-lago. and then there's also the hypocrisy element. you may recall, in 2016, hillary clinton's

mishandling of classified information, the way she handled her server was a dominant narrative about why she was, in donald trump's estimation, unfit. fox news republicans, right wing podcasters. they talked about every element of that. case as a way to show that she was somehow unfit to lead. and so i'm sorry, but what is good for the goose here is good for the gander. and i think that democrats should figure out how to. >> say, hey. >> i'm sorry, i thought national security mattered, but you guys are so incompetent. you're putting our cia analysts at risk, and you're making us vulnerable to china, and you are putting american safety at risk. you know, the american people don't love the government. i think there's a reason donald trump is being successful right now in trying to dismantle certain elements of the government. but there are places where the american public is like, yeah, the government should probably do that. i can't do that for myself. and one of them is to protect americans. from external threats. and so, you know, that is a vital function of the government. and

to say or to demonstrate right now that the trump administration and these unelected maga billionaires like elon musk are making us vulnerable. that's a message. and they should grab it and they should go on offense with it. >> congressman jim himes, i feel like if you. >> had a thought bubble above. >> your head, it would say, i'm trying, but you do have you do have some folks breaking through. stephen a smith over on hannity's show, of all places, saying hegseth is the real die hire. you have an fbi agent, fbi agent making a four minute video saying you want to get the bad guys. here's our top ten list, and here's who we get. real, real, real bad guys. and you have, you know, folks like yourself out there today on the cia story who stitches them all together and makes this argument to the american people. >> well, we. >> do, nicole. and sarah is absolutely right. i mean, you know, we do. >> need to. >> be be careful. we, the opposition, the democrats need to be careful because.

>> every. >> day has a dozen things that we could chase. right. >> and that's that's very deliberate. right. in other words. >> if you're chasing everything, you're. >> chasing nothing. >> but national security. >> absolutely. >> people feel that in. >> their bones. >> and of course, the economics. >> you know. >> here. >> we are. >> two weeks. >> in and lo. >> and behold, eggs and. >> chicken and energy are all more expensive. >> than they. >> were before. but it is a challenge. >> look. >> the. american people put the democrats. >> in the minority. >> in the senate and. >> in. >> the house of. >> representatives. >> and the sycophancy. >> in this building. >> right now. >> you can barely walk. it is. >> so thick. >> the majority. >> has decided that. >> whatever donald trump. >> wants, he gets. >> so today. >> i mean, they're otherwise responsible people wandering around saying, gaza is lovely. >> in the springtime because. >> the. >> president came up with a madcap. idea of having the united states take. >> control and ownership. >> of gaza. >> so right. >> now, right now. and this. >> will. >> change because eventually. >> the mistakes will get made. >> but right now, there is no congress of the united. >> states. >> just true or false. no republican said that. what he said yesterday was crazy. >> oh. >> you had the usual. >> like, oh. >> i didn't actually see the comments. i haven't. >> read. >> the full statement. >> oh no, i haven't heard about

that. and again, you know, most of them are like, well, i'm sure the president's a real. >> estate developer. >> he must he must know. >> what he's talking about. >> no, no, i mean, look, look at what's happening. >> over the senate. >> with the confirmations, right? >> i mean. >> you know. >> really, you know, doctors are. >> going to vote to confirm. >> bobby kennedy. >> ex democrat, pro-choice, vaxxer denier. i mean, as i said before, there today there is. no congress of. >> the united states. >> and that's a big that's. >> a big challenge. considering that our whole reason. >> for being is to be a. >> check and balance on the power. >> of the president. >> right? >> like not by choice, but by by function, by structure. congressman, we appreciate you being here. we'll continue to turn to you. thank you so much for starting us off. go ahead. >> congressman himes is half right. >> it's partly the sycophancy. and it's also the. >> mixture of. >> sycophancy and just >> that they're stuck in there. it's making. >> it hard. >> to move. i think that. sarah's though. pointing to. >> something that's like. >> it's amazing how. >> hard this is. you've talked before in the last couple of

weeks about how the demonization. of the other has. transformed the political landscape and immigration. >> this is not a diss on democrats. >> this is a. >> the demonization. >> of the deep. >> state. >> fbi, cia, law enforcement. >> made it. >> so made. >> it has made it so. >> donald trump. >> pardoned violent insurrectionists who beat. >> cops to death. and there has been. no political penalty that he's paid because of years of. the demonization. >> of those. >> law enforcement officials. there's not we don't. >> have a country. >> anymore where the electorate, when you say he's cheapening national security, that's. >> not an easy sell. >> anymore because. >> people don't. >> think cia, fbi. >> even cops. >> in blue anymore don't. >> win. >> people's automatic, like, wow, donald trump, he's. endangering our police officers. people have become desensitized. >> and have become. >> skeptical and cynical about all of those. there's a reason why, because they've been

denigrated. >> consistently over. >> the course of these last of the whole trump. era by this, by the right. >> but it's crucial. >> that democrats figure out a way to talk about that and. >> win that argument back. but right now, it's not. >> a slam dunk to just go, you know, oh. >> he's putting the cia. >> in jeopardy and think that the american. >> people are going to go. >> oh, no, because they're not. >> it's also. >> you know, you look for what you don't see. you look for the dogs that don't. >> where is. >> merrick garland? merrick garland directed the department of justice to prosecute the january 6th cases, and christopher wray directed the bureau to investigate them where are they? it's wednesday. these attacks have been going on. the purge has been going on since last thursday. i have to sneak in a break. you're both here for the whole hour. ahead for all of us. one of donald trump's day one executive orders blocked by another judge. we mentioned this already. a judge has rejected donald trump's attempt to end birthright citizenship, something the judge called a, quote, most precious, right? plus, more on trump's desire for retribution as pam bondi takes over as the new

attorney general heads the department of justice. we'll have all those stories and moree continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. >> safelite repair safelite replace. >> nobody likes a cracked windshield. >> but at least you can go to safelite. >> com and schedule a fix in minutes. >> go to safelite. com and i'm barbara and i'm from st. joseph, michigan. >> go to safelite. com and schedule a repla i'm a retired school librarian. i'm also a library board trustee, a mother of two, and a grandmother of two. about five years ago, i was working full time, i had an awful lot of things to take care of. i needed all the help i could get. i saw the commercials for prevagen. i started taking it. and it helped! i was better able to take care of all those little details. people say to me, "barbara, you don't miss a beat." prevagen. for your brain. i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... —yeah? —yes! ...this year, we are finally updating our kitchen... ...doing subway tile in an ivory, or eggshell... —cream?... —maybe bone?...

don't get me started on quartz. a big big island... you ever heard of a waterfall counter?... for everyone who talks about doing that thing, and, over there. but never does that thing... a sweet little breakfast nook. chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving to make this happen. —really? —really? really. at home or in-person. you could also check out a chase money skills workshop. that's guidance from chase. make more of what's yours. when emergency strikes, first responders rely on the latest technology. that's why t-mobile created t-priority built for the 5g era. only t-priority dynamically dedicates more capacity for first responders.

for all those making it big out there... only t-priority dynamically ...shouldn't your mobile service be able to keep up with you? get wifi speeds up to a gig at home and on the go. introducing powerboost, only from xfinity mobile. now that's big. xfinity internet customers, cut your mobile bill in half vs. t-mobile, verizon, and at&t for your first year. plus, ask how to get the new samsung galaxy s25+ on us.

game. >> the first 100 days. it's a critical time for our country, and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is the time, so we're going to do it. settle in. >> the rachel maddow show weeknights. >> at. >> 9:00 on msnbc. >> what we do. >> is try. >> to cut right to. >> the. >> bone of what we're. seeing in washington that day. >> we're back with sarah and john. so, sarah, pick up this point john is making about how much. and some of it is, you know, mueller didn't defend the mueller investigation because he's from another era where he thought the work would speak for itself. so the mueller team is maligned on the heels of jim comey being maligned when trump fires him for refusing to see to it, to let mike flynn go. pete strzok and lisa page are maligned. nobody defends. i mean, the fbi, the cia and the department of justice for

everyone in the maga world and on the right. have been central characters of a villainous tale of lies that they've been fed for nine years. >> yeah, so that's completely true. and i agree with john. like, you cannot just assume that you say national security or you say cia and suddenly you've got all the voters with you. that's just not the way the world works anymore. the maga verse has severely demonized these people. however, there is a difference between full on maga voters and a lot of other types of voters who voted for donald trump because of reasons, you know, and they're not hardcore maga types. and i think for a lot of those people, the notion that the world that not that not the world, they their personal safety is being compromised by the incompetence of donald trump and elon musk. that's the thing, right? you've got to find the places where there are personal consequences for people in order to make them

care. they are not going to care about a nameless, faceless, even though the name is now public because they've accidentally leaked it, they're not going to care about those people. that is hard to make the american people care about, but they care about their own safety and security, and they do care broadly about the competence of their government. if you can demonstrate that what's happening is, in fact, deeply incompetent. and i think that when you talk about guardrails, look, there's not a lot of guardrails when it comes to the republican congress providing them or the people surrounding donald trump, providing them public opinion is a kind of guardrail, though. yeah. if you start to drive up donald trump's negatives, if you drive up elon musk's negatives, these are people with deeply fragile egos. and so they will take positive approval ratings as a mandate, which is exactly what they're doing right now. and they will take negative approval ratings as the idea that people want to put the brakes on them and that will pull them back. and so

democrats have got to figure out how to start telling the american people a story that makes them be like, oh yeah, this is bad. and i think one way is to say they are compromising your safety, not just the safety of the people in the cia. your safety. that's the message. i mean, the. >> thing that surprises me, and i feel like all three of us had so many conversations during the campaign. i mean, what animates liz cheney to campaign alongside vice president kamala harris is that trump would do all the things he's done over the last. as john heilemann said, it's only been two weeks and three days, but who's counting? the retribution is the second term agenda. there's nothing else, right? it is all retribution. and i think trump was honest about retribution. but you look at doctor phil, you're not really going to do that. isn't success the best revenge? you look at laura ingraham, you're not going to do retribution. you look at sean hannity, you're not going to be a dictator. well, i mean, even in maga world, even in his most sycophantic interviews, they tried to pull him away from this with some

understanding that this has nothing to do with any voters life. it has nothing to do with the cost of their home. it has nothing to do with getting their adult children out of their, you know, childhood bedrooms. it has nothing to do with anyone but donald trump. and i wonder how much the complete first, second and third purpose of trump's presidency being retribution endangers him politically. sarah. >> well, let me i'm actually going to sort of answer the opposite question, which is that part of what's happening right now and people need to understand this, is that because trump is operating by saying, i'm going to be retributive, i'm going to go after you. if you say anything that is a kind of menacing message that is causing people to not want to stick their head out right now and criticize these people, right. like elon musk is now has access to everybody's personal information. and so people are fearful of being targeted. i mean, if you look at why a lot of republicans are falling in line, like, i have to go back to joni ernst on the pete hegseth

hearing, she got shouted down and people were attacking her so vociferously from the maga. right. anybody, whether it's thom tillis, anybody who makes senator cassidy when it was, you know, rfk because he has doubts, because he's a medical doctor and he doesn't want to put some anti-vaccine crank in in as as head of hhs. they all get cowed, right? they all get basically put in their place by right wing maga sort of people who are intimidating them. and so right now, people are operating from a place of fear. and at some point, the only way to get out of that place of fear is for trump to for it to feel to people like trump has less of a public backing than he has. and there's a symbiotic relationship, right? like with that right to get there, somebody has to drive down his popularity, which means somebody has got to show some leadership and step up and go on offense. and that's the democrats job.

the democrats job is to figure out how to communicate with the american people and show a good contrast to what trump is doing, to say this person is incompetent. this person is, is, is going to provide you with negative consequences in your life. and we are a better alternative, not just in terms of an election, but like, you can trust us. we're a sane, normal party. which, by the way, brings me to another point i'd just like to make in general, which is i watched the dnc this past weekend. that is not an alternative party, an expression of an alternative party that is going to win over the american people. and so right now, the american people and democrats specifically are pretty desperate for leadership in this moment, in opposition to what trump and elon musk are doing. nobody elected elon musk, but they are going to have to find a stiffened spine and start communicating effectively with voters. otherwise, we're just going to see more and more of this. >> i never, ever, ever feel.

>> comfortable disagreeing with you about anything, but there's. >> one i want. >> to make a. >> little slight, i don't i don't think i don't think it's. >> all retribution. and i think the reason. >> it's not. >> all retribution is because if you look at things. like shutting down usaid, shutting down the department of education, there. >> is a whole now. >> parallel agenda. >> that i. >> don't know how. >> much trump understands. >> it or cares about it, but it's elon's agenda. yeah, and the. elon musk agenda. our co-president, which is unfortunately, you know, we've talked. >> i've. >> talked to on this show. >> and. >> in other places about one of the most interesting tensions in trump's political coalition between the bannon wing. and the. musk wing. >> this is the place where bannon and. >> musk are aligned. bannon wants. >> the deconstruction of the. >> administrative state. >> is exactly what elon musk wants. >> bannon wants. >> it for maybe slightly different. >> reasons. >> maybe less, slightly less for personal. >> enrichment than musk. >> but they both want to tear. >> everything down. >> they're both. >> heath ledger in the in. >> the second dark night movie. >> they just want to. >> watch the. >> world burn. they want to. >> they want. >> to. >> tear these, these, these,

these. institutions down. and trump has that quality too. >> that's not about retribution. that's just about nihilism. >> right. but that's. >> what elon musk is a very effective. >> at doing, is. >> knowing how to send five really brilliant computer. programmers who don't know anything. >> about concerns. >> about like, what would happen to classified. >> documents or names got out, but know how to get inside the bowels of the treasury department's. >> payment systems and. extract the. >> information that they need. >> for whatever purposes, and how to effectively shut down. >> an independent agency like. >> usaid in. >> a weekend of work. >> right. that's like that's. >> the parallel. >> agenda that goes. >> in perfect. >> tandem with the retributive agenda. it is. >> the. >> place where musk. >> and trump come together. >> trumps not musk, is not retributive. >> trump is. >> not fully deconstructed. i don't think he understands any of those words. deconstruction, administrative state. but tearing stuff down. great. >> and they. >> they're kind of they're working in devilish tandem now. >> and i think. >> that part of the of the challenge here is how do you

address all of that. right. because in some ways. the purely retributive sarah's messaging challenge of like he's trying. >> to tear. >> you're trying to take people out. >> and making you unsafe, hurting. >> you personally. there's this larger agenda which is. just ripping the whole system down to the studs. >> and that. >> also has impacts in american life. but again, nicole. 40 years of anti-government. >> rhetoric where people. >> don't believe in the government in the way that they did in the era of the, the of the kennedy administration or even the reagan administration anymore. and people are kind. >> of. >> like, all right. >> go ahead. let's tear. >> it down and see how it works. >> i mean, and i agree with you and i, but i think to sarah's point, none of it lowers the cost of eggs. >> i, i. >> totally i'm. >> not this is sarah and i are not on different sides. >> on this. >> i'm just wondering widen the aperture here about. what is. >> going on to also why the. aperture of what kind. >> of. messaging needs. >> to be formulated. if you were

want. >> to make this. stop or be. >> a drag on it, at. >> least we just sneak in one more break ahead for us. another loss for donald trump in court today on one of the main planks of his campaign and his continued assault on the constitution. we'll tell you about it next. >> important health. >> care announcement. >> if people tell you. >> your tv is too. >> loud. or if listening in some environments has become too. >> difficult. >> we are requesting your. >> participation in a special program. called the. >> 30 day risk. >> free challenge hearing. >> live hearing centers are seeking people with hearing difficulties. >> to. >> evaluate a. >> new 100% digital mini. >> hearing aid. >> now being released. all people with hearing aids or hearing difficulties are wanted to take part in this 30 day risk free challenge. evaluating this new high tech device that sits discreetly behind your ear. this hearing aid is bluetooth enabled and rechargeable. >> all hearing. >> assessments are. performed at no charge. >> for those.

>> taking part in the challenge. >> participants will. >> try these hearing aids for 30. >> days. >> now. >> to take part. >> in this event, you must call. please get a. pencil and write. >> down the number below. >> then call. >> us. >> and take the hearing. life 30 day risk free challenge. >> legal eagles. >> and doug, you'll. be back. >> emus can't help people. >> customize and save hundreds. on car insurance. with liberty mutual. >> you're just a flightless bird. >> no. >> he's a dreamer, frank. >> and doug. >> well. i'll be. that bird really did it. >> only pay for. >> what. >> what. >> you hi, susan! honey? yeah? i respect that, but that cough looks pretty bad. try this robitussin honey. the real honey you love, plus the powerful cough relief you need. mind if i root through your trash? robitussin, the only brand with true source certified honey.

your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our advanced matching helps find talented candidates, so you can connect with them fast. visit indeed.com/hire

♪♪ well would you look at that? jerry, you've got to see this. i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. i really should be retired by now. wish i'd invested when i had the chance... to the moon! unbelievable. stop waiting. start investing. e*trade ® from morgan stanley. for donald trump. an executive order that curbs birthright

citizenship for children born here of undocumented immigrants. it strikes at some of the basic questions of what it means to be an american. a federal district court judge in maryland putting in place a nationwide injunction against the trump administration's order. and it appears to have some staying power, as the new york times reports, in most cases, a preliminary injunction remains in force until a case is resolved or a higher court overturns it. speaking from the bench, the judge said this. quote, the executive order conflicts with the plain language of the 14th amendment contradicts 125 year old binding supreme court precedent, and runs counter to our nation's 250 year history of citizenship by birth. the united states supreme court has resoundingly rejected the president's interpretation of the citizenship clause of the 14th amendment. in fact, no court in the country has ever endorsed the president's interpretation. this court will not be the first. the judge lays

out the stakes of the case for every american, adding this quote, citizenship is the most precious right expressly guaranteed by the 14th amendment of the constitution. it is said that the right to u.s. citizenship is a right no less precious than life or liberty. the case was brought by five undocumented pregnant women and an immigrant rights group. an attorney for the plaintiffs told the judge this, quote, the parents covered by the order have lived in the u.s. for decades. they're not temporary visitors. they have made america their home, and they're entitled to have their children subject to the same constitutional right that every other child in america has. today's ruling is the administration's second defeat. in the matter of a few weeks on this issue. last month, a federal judge in seattle had issued a 14 day restraining order and a ruling in which he slammed the trump administration, saying this, quote, i have difficulty understanding how a member of the bar can state unequivocally that this is a constitutional

order. it boggles my mind. where were the lawyers when this decision was being made? we're back with sarah and john. sarah, this kind of language, when it came from i think it was a federal judge named judge carter in california, seemed to focus the minds of congress. it preceded the special. the congressional investigation into january 6th. and i wonder if you think the clarity with which the judges are rebuking the overreach by trump and the lack of any founding in the constitution will have any slowing impact. >> i do think it will have some slowing impact, but more importantly, the constitution will have the slowing impact. i'm sorry, but i'm just going to read you the quick clause in the 14th amendment, which says all persons born or naturalized in the united states and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the united states and of the state wherein they reside. no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the united states. nor shall any

state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. that's it. that's what it says. and so this isn't a public opinion question. this isn't a question of like what donald trump thinks. it's just right there stated plainly in the constitution. and any judge who can read will uphold it. and so, i mean, i guess you could get to some place where there's some kind of a constitutional showdown between, you know, donald trump's executive order and the courts, but there's not a donald trump would have to be overriding the constitution. like, there's just no question here. it's a straightforward thing. and look, they donald trump has obviously spent a lot of time demonizing immigration and, and our immigration laws. and maybe they will even succeed here as a, as a messaging matter in making the fact that people born in this country from people who are undocumented, that they

shouldn't be citizens, but even if they won the public opinion fight, they would still lose the constitutional fight because it is completely straightforward. >> maybe. >> i mean, maybe, maybe in the sense that maybe. no, no, i mean, maybe. in the sense that. >> i think that, look, it's sarah's colleague jonathan last, who was on the podcast. >> with. me on. >> my podcast earlier this week, who made this point. the plain. >> language of the. >> constitution endorses birthright citizenship. >> there are two votes. >> in the supreme court who will. >> vote for. >> trump. >> on anything, and. >> clarence thomas and justice alito. >> got a72. >> court at the supreme court, which is where this case is going to go. get a72 ruling in favor. >> of rejects. >> trump's claim. trump, as jonathan last asked. >> the question, trump stands up and goes, tells. >> the supreme court to pound. sand says, we reject. we think this ruling is illegitimate. >> and we're going to. >> continue to we're just not going to. issue birth certificates to. >> children of undocumented people in america. what happens

then? does anybody really think that that's inconceivable, that trump will test the supreme court's power in that way at some point in this term? does anybody think, sarah. i don't think sarah thinks that's inconceivable. >> sarah. >> it's not inconceivable. >> yeah, well, quoting jonathan last at me is unfair because he is the bleakest colleague and friend that i have. >> yes, but not wrong. not. no, but but sometimes not wrong. >> go ahead. sarah. >> he is, he is, he is. he is right. on occasion, he's been known to be right on occasion. because by taking the bleakest outlook, you know, that has proved to him that has allowed him to be right. during the trump administration. i so you're right. i mean, he might dare the supreme court. and he's going to he is look, he's going to stress all of our systems. yeah. that won't change the fact that it will be fundamentally unconstitutional. at that point, we don't have a we don't have a republic anymore. we don't have a we don't have a country anymore. we don't. >> but go. >> ahead and just let me say quickly, i have laurence tribe

on my podcast this week, and laurence tribe, one of the preeminent constitutional scholars in the country who agrees with jonathan last. >> in. >> the sense that trump is trying to test the boundaries of his power. he is trying to push the congress and take away what the constitution says is the power of the congress to tax and to spend. trump is trying. >> to usurp. >> that power. he is going to try to test the limits of the judiciary's power. also, whether it's on this issue or on something else, we will see a showdown with the supreme court between the supreme court and donald trump in this term. i predict whether it's on birthright citizenship or something else. i have no idea. i agree with sarah. like we're very far over the waterfall when that moment comes, but i just don't think that anyone can reasonably say, well, that'll never happen. >> well. this for? that'll never happen. we have to sneak in a break so we can get to trump's plans to put, you know, i don't know, a club med or condos in know, a club med or condos in gaza. that's n when you're a small-business owner, your to-do list can be...a lot. ♪♪

super helpful. ♪♪ [ cheering ] what are invoices? progressive makes it easy to see if you can save money with a commercial auto quote online so you can get back to all your other to-dos. absolutely not. get a quote at progressivecommercial.com. now there's blink nutri tears. it works differently than drops. blink nutri tears is a once daily supplement clinically proven to hydrate from within, helping your eyes produce more of their own tears to promote lasting, continuous relief. you'll feel day after day. try blink nutri tears a different way to support dry eyes. blink red tears. >> 48% of. >> americans don't get enough. >> magnesium.

>> which is vital for bone. >> nerve, and muscle health. i recommend qanon magnesium glycinate. it's formulated for glycinate. it's formulated for high absorption [coughing] copd is an ugly reality. do you have his medical history? i watch as his world just keeps getting smaller. but then, trelegy helped us see things a little differently. with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy keeps airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flare-ups. once-daily trelegy also improves lung function, so he can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ♪♪ ♪what a wonderful world♪

ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for copd because breathing should be beautiful, all day and night. [restaurant noise] allison. [swooshing sound] introducing allison's plaque psoriasis. ♪♪ she thinks her flaky, gray patches are all people see. ♪♪ otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. over here! otezla can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. doctors have been prescribing otezla for over a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing or swallowing, swelling of the face, lips, tongue, throat or arms. severe diarrhea, nausea or vomiting; depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss can happen. tell your doctor if any of these occur and if you have a history of depression or suicidal thoughts. with clearer skin,

girls' day out is a good day out. live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla. your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire it knocks it out in a minute. one minute? and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, or almost a cleaning? >> perhaps not. since that. >> moment. >> almost five years ago, has donald trump said something publicly quite as ridiculous as he did yesterday, when he suggested, in front of the israeli prime minister and in the middle of a cease fire, of

cease fire negotiations with the lives of hostages on the line, that he plans to displace the palestinian people, all of them seized control of and occupy the devastated gaza strip and turn it into a coastal paradise, as if it were a trump property acquisition. watch. >> instead of having to go back and do it again, the us will take over the gaza strip and we will do a job with it too. we'll own it. >> given what you've said about. >> gaza, did the us. >> send troops to help. >> secure the. >> security vacuum? >> as far as gaza is concerned, we'll do what is necessary. if it's necessary, we'll do that. gaza is not a place for people to be living, and the only reason they want to go back, and i believe this strongly, is because they have no alternative. i don't want to be cute. i don't want to be a wise guy. but the riviera of the middle east, this could be something that could be so bad. this could be so magnificent. >> the riviera of the middle east. sara. okay, sara.

>> the whole. >> the whole pitch from trump and maga and america first is an anti-interventionist pitch. it's the idea that america is too extended around the world and we shouldn't be in other people's. we should take care of our own here at home. and since donald trump has become president and only in the last two weeks, we are supposed to be suddenly taking over greenland, taking over canada, and now we're taking over gaza. now, i have not yet made up my mind about how much of this is a distraction from the actual dismantling of the government, which elon is undertaking over here, and this is meant to get people exercised and distracted and focused on these things so that they don't notice, you know, because this is we are in a moment of donald trump trying to overwhelm our nervous systems. right. he's trying to flood the zone and make it like

impossible for us to respond. however, these are real people's lives, like even the logistics of this, the idea you're just going to move everybody out so you can develop it, and then people are going to move back in like it is. it's insane. it's unserious. it's not going to happen. but i do think for people who were deeply upset about joe biden's position on israel and palestine, i hope that they will use the same amount of energy to protest what donald trump is doing right now, because i think that this might be considerably worse. >> the understatement of the hour. i'll give holman the last hour. i'll give holman the last word on so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment...

...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. ♪♪ it's time to say, “not so fast, chronic kidney disease.” because with a progressive disease like ckd, slow is good. and believe me, i know all about slow. that's why i'm here to tell you about jardiance - it's a little pill... proven to slow the progression of ckd... and reduce the risk of kidney failure, which can lead to dialysis. serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine, which can be fatal. stop jardiance and call your doctor right away... if you have nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, trouble breathing, or increased ketones. jardiance may cause dehydration that can suddenly worsen kidney function and make you feel dizzy, lightheaded, or weak upon standing. genital yeast infections in men and women, urinary tract infections,... low blood sugar, or a rare life-threatening...

bacterial infection between and around the anus and genitals can occur. call your doctor right away if you have fever or feel weak or tired, and pain, tenderness, swelling or redness in the genital area. don't use if allergic to jardiance. stop use if you have a serious allergic reaction. call your doctor if you have rash, swelling, difficulty breathing or swallowing. you may have increased risk for lower limb loss. call your doctor right away if you have new pain or tenderness, sores, ulcers or infection in your legs or feet. so go on - say “not so fast ckd.” ask your doctor about jardiance for chronic kidney disease. my moderate to severe crohn's disease... ...and my ulcerative colitis symptoms... ...kept me... ...out of the picture. now... ...there's skyrizi. ♪i've got places to go...♪ ♪...and i'm feeling free♪ ♪control of my symptoms means everything...♪ ♪...to me♪ ♪control is everything to me♪ and now... ...i'm back in the picture. feel significant symptom relief at... ...4 weeks with skyrizi. skyrizi is proven to help deliver remission... ...and help visibly improve damage.... ...of the intestinal lining at 12 weeks and 1 year.

don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions,... ...increased infections or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections... ...and tb. tell your doctor about any... ...flu-like symptoms,or vaccines. liver problems leading to hospitalization... ...may occur when treated for crohn's or uc. ready to get... ...back in the picture? ask your... ...gastroenterologist how to take control of your crohn's... ...or uc with skyrizi. ♪control is everything to me♪ abbvie could help you save. we are living with afib. and over half a million of us have left blood thinners behind. for life. we've cut our stroke risk... ...and said goodbye to our bleeding worry. with the watchman implant. watchman. it's one time, for a lifetime. my name's dan and i live here in san antonio, texas. i ran my own hvac business and now i'm retired. i'm not good being retired. i'm a pain in the neck. i like to be able to have a purpose. about three or four years ago, i felt like i was starting to slip. i saw the prevagen commercials.

after a short amount of time taking prevagen, i started noticing a difference-- i stopped taking prevagen and i found myself slacking back so i jumped right back on it. i've been taking prevagen for about two years now, and i've found a huge difference. prevagen. for your brain. one intervention off her list a panama. we're going to take that. >> oh, yes. right. yeah. don't forget about panama. >> it's the. >> impulse i talked about before, which is i'm the unitary, omnipotent, you know, omnipresent executive. i am the state. basically i am, i am all i will do what i want to do and dare everyone to stop him. that impulse is the same impulse as here. i don't think this this was not an off the cuff, right? >> he said. >> this thing about something. he first said it in the earlier press conference in the day at the oval office, when siouxsie wiles was, like firing daggers at him through her eyeballs. and

then he came back with a written version of it last night. so it's not if it's premeditated. we know there's some tape that shows jared talking roughly like this about a year ago. kushner that is this. is what he really wants. but he wants to i will take it over. >> we will go in there. we will. own it. he kept. >> saying, and we will do a great job there. and then, you know, somehow i'll profit from it because we'll eventually do it. like it'll be a real estate development. somehow everyone will come to me. >> everyone loves that. >> i mean, i think. that is the narcissism of i'm going to do what i'm going to do. i dare you to stop me. is the is the through line through all of it foreign and domestic? i think that the reality of, you know, not just in terms of like some hoity toity notions of international law displacing 2 million people, a forced displacement of 2 million people out of their homeland is a war crime. that's all that is. and that's not all that is. that is what that is. and i think that the that the restraints on trump are pretty severe. i think the

likelihood this will happen not very likely. >> why it was our fourth story, sarah longwell, john heilemann, thank you both. it's a treat to get to talk to both of you for the hour. thank you both so much for spending it with us. up next. for us, it's a new era, officially at d.o.j. today, with pam bondi taking the reins as america's attorney general. america's attorney general. first order of business (tony hawk) i still love to surf, snowboard, and of course, skate, so i take qunol magnesium to support my muscle and bone health. qunol's high-absorption magnesium glycinate helps me get the full benefits of magnesium. qunol. the brand i trust. if you have heart failure or chronic kidney disease, farxiga can help you keep living life, because there are places you'd like to be. (♪♪) serious side effects include increased ketones in blood or urine and bacterial infection between the anus and genitals, both which may be fatal, severe allergic reactions, dehydration, urinary tract or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar.

stop taking and tell your doctor right away if you have nausea, vomiting, stomach pain, tiredness, rash, swelling, trouble breathing or swallowing. tell your doctor about lightheadedness, weakness, fever, pain, tenderness, redness or swelling between the anus and genitals. ask your doctor about farxiga today. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ (♪♪) i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... ...thinking of redoing our kitchen. ...we are finally updating our kitchen. for all those people who never seem to get around to it... —...a breakfast nook. —chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving... —really? —really? at home or in-person. that's guidance from chase. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. baby: liberty! biberty: hey kid, it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: bi-be-rty! baby: biberty! biberty: and now she's mocking me. very mature. mom: hey, that's enough you two! biberty: hey, i'm not the one acting like a total baby. mom: she's two.

only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: liberty. qanon magnesium glycinate. it's formulated for high reminder.

>> smart mom by morning. >> got it, got it. boss. otter, you got this. >> i think she's going to be as impartial as you can possibly be. i know i'm supposed to say she's going to be totally impartial with respect to democrats, and i think she will be as impartial as a person can be. i'm not sure if there's a possibility of totally, but she's going to be as total as you can get. she's going to end the weaponization of federal law enforcement and restore honesty and integrity at the doj and the fbi. and she's going to be working with cash, and she's going to be working with a lot of other people that you've been reading about, writing about

over the last few weeks. >> hi again, everybody. it's now 5:00 in new york, not even trying to hide the partiality to come after today at the department of justice, donald trump, speaking earlier at the swearing in of pam bondi, the new u.s. attorney general, bondi taking the reins at the justice department, marks a new era for the rule of law in this country, where trump stated goal of retribution is paramount. in fact, this afternoon, bondi issued new memos, among them one which announced the creation of a weaponization working group that will review, conduct and review activities of all departments and agencies exercising civil or criminal enforcement authority of the u.s. over the last four years. among the targets laid out by the attorney general, pam bondi, special counsel jack smith, manhattan district attorney alvin bragg, new york attorney general letitia james and their

staffs. meanwhile, the retribution effort already underway within the department that we've been covering here for days now has reached new heights. the acting number two at the department of justice, emil bove, sent a message to the acting fbi director, calling his refusal to comply with bove's request for the names of agents who investigated. january 6th. quote, insubordination. bove, writing in his message that he was then forced to make a wider request for information, quote, in light of acting leadership's refusal to comply with the narrower request, the written directive was intended to obtain a complete data set that the justice department can reliably pare down to the core team that will be the focus of the weaponization review. pursuant to the executive order referencing trump's executive order to root out what he perceives to be politicization in the intelligence community, bove's recent moves have raised alarm inside the fbi that a mass

purge of thousands of employees is possible and near. and as we discussed on this show yesterday, there have already been lawsuits filed to block the use of this list that bove has demanded be created. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. former assistant attorney general for national security at the department of justice, now an msnbc legal analyst, mary mccord is here and voting rights attorney and founder of the site democracy docket. marc elias is here. i don't want to make either of you uncomfortable, but i do want to, in the interest of transparency, remind our viewers that in kash patel's published book, mary, i believe you are on a long list of perceived enemies. and mark, you are someone donald trump targets with menacing threats for retribution on a semi-regular basis. all of that in the public record. with that stipulated, i want to thank both of you for being here to have this conversation. and i'll start with you, mary, on what is

now policy, right. personnel is policy. the personnel are mr. beauvais, miss bondi and trump mentioned kash patel, and the personnel have committed to and written extensively about retribution. what happens next? >> so i think it. >> is important. >> to say as often. >> as. >> possible that everything we're. hearing coming out of mr. >> bové's mouth and now apparently. >> the end of. >> miss. >> bondi's pen. >> in terms of this new. >> memo. >> there's absolutely. >> no basis for. right? >> i mean. >> the january. >> 6th prosecutions. >> of. those who attacked. >> the capitol. almost 1600. cases handled by judges appointed. >> by presidents. >> of both parties, never, ever, ever found. >> anything untoward, anything that suggested a. political bias motivating. >> those prosecutions. >> to the contrary. the judges. >> across the board, over. and over and over. >> again talked about how serious. >> that attack. >> was, how it was. >> an effort to.

>> overturn the. >> results of an election. >> how they. >> had watched. >> the evidence on massive amounts. >> of videos. >> they had heard statements, recorded statements made by the defendants. >> these were. >> righteous cases. >> and. >> no judge. >> thought otherwise. >> same with the. >> cases brought by jack smith. the january. >> 6th case by. >> that was in the d.c. district court. >> no judge. >> there suggested. >> any political. >> bias in. >> bringing that case. >> and of course, rejected selective and vindictive. >> prosecution motions by mr. trump. >> and even. >> judge cannon. >> in the. >> mar-a-lago case. never said anything, suggesting that. >> you know. >> she had her doubts about the case. >> she ultimately. >> dismissed it on the grounds of, in her view, what was an unconstitutional appointment of the special counsel. but never. >> really said. >> anything. >> suggesting that. >> it was brought. >> for purposes. >> of. >> political. >> you know, political purposes. >> so this is utterly baseless. >> i would also suggest that, at

least with respect to miss bondi, it does seem to be that what she's doing on. >> day one is contradictory to what she. >> testified before. >> the conference in her confirmation. >> hearings, that. >> she would not. >> use the. >> department for. >> political retribution. >> and it's. >> hard to see anything you just. >> talked about. >> at. the top of the hour as anything. >> other than that. >> mark elias, let me show you some of this line of questioning in her confirmation hearing. >> sitting here today. are you aware of any factual predicate to investigate jack smith sitting here today? yes or no? >> senator. >> i will look at the facts. >> in the circumstances. >> you can't answer that question. brought to you. you're not a part of the department yet. >> there's no. >> worry about divulging law enforcement sensitive information. so just tell us, are you aware. >> as a nominee. >> tell us. >> are you aware of a factual predicate to investigate jack smith, yes or no? >> senator, what i'm hearing on the news. >> are you aware of a. >> do i know. you seem reluctant. >> i have not, you seem reluctant to answer a simple

question. let me ask you a different, simple question. the president also wants to jail liz cheney sitting here today. are you aware of any factual basis to investigate liz cheney, yes or no? >> senator, that's a hypothetical, and i'm not. >> going to. >> answer that. >> mark elias. >> look, i mean, this has been clear all along. >> donald trump is. >> going to have his department. >> of. >> justice and. >> his fbi engage in political. >> investigations and. >> if possible, political prosecutions. >> and there is nothing about pam bondi. >> or kash patel that. >> lead you. >> to believe they are. >> going to push back. instead, they are going to egg it on. >> and they are going to say. >> when he says jump. >> they're going to say how high? >> i don't know. >> how to put. >> this. >> any more plainly. the three people. >> who are on this screen right now, in one form or another, have been threatened, or it has been suggested that they. >> are in a class that should be criminally investigated. >> and potentially prosecuted.

we are a small number of a. >> large of a. >> much larger. >> group who face that utter reality today. this is not a hypothetical. this is not a what she said in a. hearing or what, you know, he tried to he tries to clean up in a press release. this is just the facts. >> i mean, in his first administration, he, he we now know. >> he tried to. >> have. >> john kerry, of all people, investigated. we know that because. >> his own. political appointee wrote it in a book. we know that he. >> tried to he tried to urge that. >> hillary clinton be criminally investigated. >> you have pointed out the various threats that he has made against, you know, members of the media, lawyers, former department of justice officials, people who are involved. >> in the. >> russia investigation. >> people who are involved. >> in the mueller. >> investigation, people involved in the january 6th investigation. >> people involved. >> in in. >> standing up against. >> his effort to steal the election. >> after in. >> 2020. >> people who have been involved in. >> trying to protect voting rights. >> i mean, the list. goes on and on. >> of who the. enemies are. that isn't. >> the question.

>> the question, the question is whether or not. >> the american people. >> is going to react. >> when we see. >> these political. prosecutions by saying. >> oh, well, maybe there's. >> some there. >> there, or whether. >> they're going to say, this is an outrage. >> because this is a political. >> prosecution, and. >> whether the judges are. >> going. >> to afford the usual. deference that they give prosecutors who. >> they assume are. >> acting in good faith, or whether they're going. >> to be realists. >> and realize that the people standing in. >> front of. >> them are either the replacements of, of the of the. >> civil servants that have been hired. precisely to. >> do this task, or they're petrified for their job. and if we don't have people stand up. >> and we don't have the media. >> to stand up and we don't have judges stand up. >> then this is going. >> to be an. >> even worse experience over. >> the next four years. >> but we all need to. >> be realistic about what pam bondi and kash patel intend. >> bill barr, john bolton and liz cheney are also on the enemies list. i think a lot of what trump has done in the first two weeks and three days was

widely telegraphed during his campaign and informed a lot of the conversation. certainly the three of us had, but some of the things that were surprising was the removal of mike pompeo security detail to protect him from a known threat from iran, threat for assassination. he also removed the security from john bolton, a loud critic of donald trump but an even louder critic of former president joe biden, as well as the campaign to strip a star from former chairman of the joint chiefs, mark milley, as as sort of a former political person. i mean, these things are not popular. mark milley is viewed by the vast majority of people who can still be reached by facts and information, which isn't all of maga, for sure, as an american hero, i mean, i wonder to the degree that politics and public outcry can slow or stop this effort, how much of the damage has already been done? mary? with the purges and the lists already underway at doj and the

fbi? well, you know, mark made some great. >> points about the effort here. >> to really. >> intimidate and chill. >> and, you. >> know, force people out who. >> are going. >> to exercise. >> any independent judgment through firings. >> or forced. >> resignations and retirements. >> and for. >> the others, make. it so. >> unpalatable that. >> they'll leave. >> i mean. >> the. >> excerpts of this. >> memo from. >> pam bondi. >> today that i. >> that i'm seeing on. >> the. news and. >> that i'm hearing from. >> you, suggests that even if anyone doesn't, you know, want to be on a particular brief. >> because of a strongly and firmly. >> held belief. >> that maybe. that's not. >> the right. >> argument to be. >> making, you. >> know, they better just say goodbye to. >> their job. >> is what it sounds like. and people. >> may think, well, if you're in the government, don't. >> you just have. >> to do anything. >> you're told. >> to do? >> and of course it is. >> it is very much. the ethos of the department of justice, particularly those in the civil division, to. >> defend government.

>> policies when they. >> are defensible. >> but there are. >> certainly throughout. >> administrations of republicans and democrats. >> there. >> are examples. >> when a particular attorney would say, this is not a case that i. >> can, you. >> know, in good faith, represent. >> the government on and. >> that has ordinarily. >> been accommodated. >> and now the. >> idea is. >> if you don't. >> get in line, you're out. >> and so that's that's really just about intimidation. i think they realize there are legal. >> problems with firings. i mean. >> they've obviously. >> fired a lot of people. >> already, and. they're going. >> to have a lot. >> of lawsuits to. >> defend on those. >> on those grounds. but, you know. >> they'd rather have people leave voluntarily. >> and make it a. >> place that. >> you know. >> they. >> don't feel comfortable. >> talking about. these. >> removing of. >> the security details. >> this is something that. >> i do. >> think could be more. >> difficult for people. >> sort of outside. >> the beltway or who haven't. had public service or been involved. >> in national. >> security issues before. >> i think very. >> strongly across the politica. >> divide. no matter where your

politics. >> are. >> that people. >> who've. >> been involved. >> in national. security and. >> intelligence collection work understand. >> the threats very, very. >> well and that. >> there is a need, regardless of your politics, to protect those who have served in those positions, served the american people. >> and have. >> and that has resulted in threats to their lives. and i don't think anyone across the. political divide. >> footnoting some of the, you know, people that. >> have just. >> really gone. >> extreme would, would, would. approve of stripping the people. >> you just mentioned of. >> their security details. >> it's wrong. >> and it's dangerous. >> mark elias, john heilemann made a good point in the last hour. he said, the only way you successfully demonize general mark milley is after nine years of dehumanization and demonizing

people who view it as outside the norms and outside what is appropriate in terms of response. and i think this started with the firing of comey and then the villainization of all the mueller prosecutors, and then the demonization of all the lawsuits you successfully brought. what was the record 60 wins for you, one for. >> 6064 and 164 and 164. >> and won. but the demonization of the deep state is tragically something that has gone better than anyone anticipated. and a lot of it is. i mean, all of it is the fault of trump, but none of it was aided by the silence of long time people. mary is a rare exception to speak out. it's not from a partizan vein. it's in defense of her agency and her expertise. i know for a fact that merrick garland feels emotional about his workforce. it would be very important to see him today or tomorrow or the next day, and to have him say on

television, i directed the department to prosecute people who carried out criminal acts on live television. that was my, you know, come for me, leave my workforce alone. where are and christopher wray, same thing. i led the fbi take that list of 4000, put it in the shredder. take me. where are those leaders? >> it's a great look. it's a great question. and mary is. >> that's one of the. >> reasons why she's a hero, right? she's a hero. in this moment. because here she is and she's speaking out. and by the way, you know, i want to just add one fact to that. she said about those prosecutors. i would argue that the or those doj lawyers, i would argue that the doj lawyers who don't put their names on the brief, they're they're meeting their ethics, their ethical obligations. i mean, if you're a lawyer and you don't feel like you can support the position being advocated, you have an ethical obligation not to put your name on the brief. i mean, it's not just a matter of their personal preference. they're actually doing the right thing for the government by saying, look, you ought to have lawyers whose names are on this brief, who can

zealously represent the government's interests, and not someone like me who has genuine doubts about it. so i want to point that out. but but to your to your broader point of where are the leaders? look, i have been gravely disappointed over the course of the last few months at how few people have been willing to step forward, and how many have taken a step back. and some of the loudest voices that we saw for rule of law, for democracy, for, you know, for nonpartisan administration of justice, you know, where where, as you say, where are they today? you know, the last time we heard from merrick garland, he was he was preaching about the importance of norms to on his way out the door. but, but, but, you know, preaching about the importance of norms might be more important today than it was as as he was leaving the department. the last thing i want to say, though, is on this security detail. look, i mean, donald. >> trump. >> pardoned 1600 people. not so that they go form, you know, a pacifist choir, right? i mean,

he has been known to attack to use the, the, the external agitation and threat to get what he wants. i had a i had a very chilling conversation earlier today with a democratic member. >> of. >> congress who said to me, the reason why you're seeing so few house republicans speak out is not because they're. >> afraid. >> of losing their elections. they're afraid they're physically you know, he's created an environment of physical fear for people of his own party. forget about people who have crossed him. you know, that's a whole other thing. but even within his own party. so the removing of security details is part of an ethos in which he wants to instill fear. both fear of prosecution, fear of attack online, fear of, you know, ostracization and within the republican party, but also physical fear. and don't don't underestimate that. we may see that as well in the months to come. >> well, i would never underestimate that. i think all three of us understand that. but i would say, then what? then?

then you're going to put rfk jr in charge of children's vaccines and just tell your kids, you know, tough, if they have a classmate that dies of polio, you can put tulsi gabbard in charge of this list of first names and last initials of hundreds of fbi agents. you're going to purge 4000 agents from the fbi who touched him. i mean, i take the fear of violence very seriously, and i sympathize with them. i empathize with them, unfortunately. but what what what are we going to the country ends. congress goes away. what is the end game for the person you talk to? mark elias. >> yeah, to be clear, this was a democrat. this was not someone who themselves is saying that they're backing away. this is. someone who's explaining why the republicans weren't, because i think the assumption has been that republicans are afraid of losing at the ballot box. and this is an electoral play, which, by the way, is no better, right? it's like not not more valiant. but i found it interesting that, that this was the answer i got when i asked this question. and i think that

that you're asking the right question, though. and, you know, look in in in 50 years, you know, when, when all of us are probably long and gone, you know, our children and our children's children are going to ask what we did in this moment of time. and saying we were fearful is not going to be something that reflects pretty well on any of us. so, look, this is a time for civic courage. it's a time for courage from leaders. it's a time for courage from everyone who who needs to, in their own way, speak out against this and stand up against it. it's why, you know, mary does what she does. it's why, certainly you do what you do. it's what i try to add to the equation in my work. but i, you know, i don't understand. i wish i could answer why christopher wray resigned. i wish i could answer why people preempt why so much of the media backed away and paid, you know, paid tribute. why billionaires are, you know, buying their way into mar-a-lago to pay tribute. i don't understand it, but but we all have to do the best we can to fight against it.

>> mark elias and mary mccord, you're in the category of your own. thank you for starting us off today. when we come back, congressman jim clyburn will be here. he'll join the conversation in progress about the point that was just made, what democrats can do at this precarious moment for american democracy and what their republican counterparts are unwilling or afraid to do. also ahead, much more on elon musk accelerating his assault on the federal government, ratcheting up what's been called a state capture, musk's ultimate goals, and the pushback from those who are trying to stop him later in the hour deadline. white house continues after a quick break. continues after a quick break. don't go (tony hawk) i still love to surf, snowboard, and of course, skate, so i take qunol magnesium to support my muscle and bone health. qunol's high-absorption magnesium glycinate helps me get the full benefits of magnesium. qunol. the brand i trust. want to get the most out of one sheet? grab bounty. (♪♪) bounty is made to be stronger...

...and more absorbent. so, while ordinary brands can't hold up, one sheet of bounty keeps working, even when wet. (♪♪) now that's the sound of value. bounty. the quicker picker upper. sync. refresh your routine with factor chef prepared meals delivered with a tap ready in two minutes. >> imagine dinner. >> on autopilot and enjoying tuscan tomato chicken without lifting a finger. upgrade your lifting a finger. upgrade your plate. optimize your nutrition. ♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. with the chase mobile app, things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily

and send money quickly. ♪♪ that's convenience from chase. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean. not spreadsheets... you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our matching platform lets you spend less time searching and more time connecting with candidates. visit indeed.com/hire and muscle health. >> i recommend qanon magnesium glycinate. it's formulated dave's been very excited about saving big with the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. five years? -five years. and he's not alone. -high five. it's five years of reliable gig speed internet.

five years of advanced securit. five years of a great rate that won't change. it's back. but only for a limited time. high five. five years? -nope. comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. powering five years of savings. powering possibilities. comcast business. listen. >> staying up half. >> the. >> night reading. >> executive orders. >> for. this defining time in the second trump presidency. stay with msnbc.

>> we need to act like a real opposition party in the middle of a constitutional and democracy crisis. that means we should not be moving forward. nominees or legislation in the united states senate democrats should not be giving votes to nominees or to legislation in the united states senate until republicans get serious about this crisis. >> the argument being advanced there by senator murphy is that maybe sometimes the solution to disruption is to meet it with disruption, especially if it is in service of trying to block the constitutional crisis created by elon musk, greenlit by donald trump, and allowing him to take over the government. joining our conversation is democratic congressman jim clyburn of south carolina. congressman, thank you for being here. >> well, thank you very much for having me. >> what is your view for all of the political battles? you've sort of been a moral compass for? and two, what is your sense

about this political moment for the country? >> well. >> i. >> think we're. >> in a very, very tricky moment. >> i believe that the congress is endowed with some constitutional responsibilities that we've got to live up to. so i think that what senator murphy is saying is. >> spot on. we have. >> an obligation given to. >> us by the constitution. >> which we. >> should live up to. >> we can't succeed. or succeed. to the administration. we can work with the administration, and we can work on behalf of the administration. but when it comes to the constitution, our duties are there. there are one part of. >> a three. >> legged stool, and we. >> must have. >> cooperation from.

>> the other two. >> legs for the people of the country to benefit. >> from our deliberations. >> as it stands now, it seems that no matter what we decide, the administration has taken. upon itself to be the final arbiter. >> and i don't think that's. >> the way it. >> was designed. >> to work. >> what do you do when your counterparts in the republican party, in the senate, at least, are willing to abdicate their advise and consent role to people that they know that they will say are unqualified? people like rfk jr. >> well. >> i think that's. >> what we have to do is get the american public to understand exactly what the issues are. >> i hear. >> people saying all the time, congress has abdicated its role. no, we have not. the fact of.

>> the matter. >> is, it takes 218 votes to control the congress. we don't have 218 on the democratic side. so the abdication here is the republicans in the congress have abdicated their role and their responsibility to function properly. if you see everything the to the administration, you are not carrying out your responsibility to the people who sent you here. so we democrats have got a job of working to inform the public, keep them informed as to exactly what's happening here, and make them. understand that we need 218. maybe we'll get that after the next election. we did not get it after the last election. and if the people want balance in this system, maybe they will give us the responsibility of having enough votes the next time

around to put some balance into this administration. >> one of the things that trump has spent a lot of energy on is retribution at the fbi, at doj, at the pentagon. they're focused on retribution against general mark milley. what can democrats do to protect the stated targets of trump's retribution? >> well, what's at that? >> i think that. >> we cannot do much about that. i just read a headline today that the new attorney general is going to target people for retribution. that is very, very unfortunate. she made it very clear at the hearings that she would not be doing that. but now i read that she will be. look, we can only do what is necessary to inform people about what's going on. i think that we have a

responsibility of protecting the press. the press got a responsibility of informing the public. and all of us have a responsibility of carrying out our duties and responsibilities in such a way that the american people will benefit for good, wholesome and secure existence going forward. that's a responsibility all. >> of us share. >> and if we are endangered as the third stool and the press is being misinformed as to information, we have a responsibility to work together to inform the public as to what's what's going on. >> look, i appreciate your candor and informing the public at this point is, is something that trump's making pretty easy, doing things from the podium that if everybody knew, i'm pretty sure they wouldn't all

feel great about. so we're going to continue to call on you because no one does it with the clarity that you do. congressman jim clyburn, thank you for joining us today. >> well, thank you. >> very much for having me. >> thank you. when we come back, the questions aren't going away. who is really running the government right now? is it donald trump or the unelected co-president of the world's richest man, elon musk? what musk is up to, what he hopes to achieve, and the people whose very jobs are at stake because very jobs are at stake because of him. we'll bring you that hey guys. there's a change in the air. - two changes. - two changes. ♪♪ the three-row luxury tx. because everyone should feel like the center of the universe. ♪♪ the first time you try bounce, it hits you. your laundry feels way fresher, softer. so you start to wonder. if i put a sheet of bounce on the finance guy, will it make him softer? bounce can't do it all but for better laundry, ♪ put a sheet on it with bounce. ♪

>> modesty. cover yourself. >> with the most dangerous job in the world. >> a smart. >> diver one. where are you? >> he's gone. >> based on the incredible true story. >> i got an idea. >> on february 28th. no one gets. >> left behind. >> left behind. >> i'm not losing a diver tap into etsy for original and affordable home and style pieces like like lighting under 150 dollars to brighten your vibe. for under 100 dollars, put your best look forward with vintage jackets. or pick up custom shelving for under 50 to make space without emptying your pockets. and get cozy with linen robes for 75 or less. for affordable home and style finds to help you welcome whatever's next, etsy has it.

some people just know they could save hundreds on car insurance by checking allstate first. like you know to check the weather first, before sailing. it's gonna get nasty later. yep. hey! perfect day for sailing, huh? have fun on land. i'll go tell the coast guard. yep. yeah, checking first is smart. so check allstate first for a quote that could save you hundreds. you're in good hands with allstate. >> qanon coq10. >> qanon has the number one >> qanon has the number one cardiologist recommended form your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire

answer. who is in charge really of our federal government right now? today? 534 in the east, who republicans will swear up and down it's donald trump of gaza as a riviera of fame, not the man he deputized to strip the federal government down to its studs, not the man armed with the private data now of american citizens. in fact, as trump has suggested publicly, aides have signaled behind the scenes to nbc news that elon musk is still a staffer and needs to report to white house chief of staff siouxsie wiles, and yet, not even trump himself is as immune to scrutiny as elon musk right now. democrats on the house oversight committee tried to subpoena the world's richest man for information on his government takeover. here's how that went.

>> i think. it's outrageous that this. >> committee will not even entertain. >> a motion. >> no, you state your chairman. that's not a point of. >> order, i. >> a point of order. >> are. out of order, a motion to demagoguery. this is as are in favor of tabling. yes. let's have order in this country. barry, you're out of order. you know you're out of order. you know the rules of this committee. >> that's what fear of elon musk sounds like during our coverage. managing editor of lawfare, tyler mcbrien is here. and joining us here at the table, my friend and colleague, msnbc anchor alex wagner, host of the new podcast trumpland. she's been reporting from washington this week and talking to federal workers targeted by musk and his aides. what did you learn? >> first of all, i think the vengeance with which this is being taken out should not be understated. i was talking to

some of the folks who worked at usaid, in particular a woman named christina drye, who is the now one of the now former spokespeople there, and the absolute disregard for not just the people who work in the federal government, but the people they then serve the american public, but also the global community. we have national security interests in doing this work. let's just put that out there. in addition to the humanitarian aid, there are scores thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who are in real need who have no idea what america is doing. i want to play you a little bit of my interview with her, where she gives us kind of a sense of the chaos that's unfolding behind these walls. >> in addition to the us aid folks that are losing their jobs without being able to plan or even put in two weeks. everyone in the development sector that i know is just sitting here going, what do we do? what's next? how do we continue to help the people we're helping? because ultimately, you know, i'm probably losing my job. most people here have. and what we

really care most about is the people we're serving. and we also have no communication with them because we can't communicate with our liaisons through our systems. we can't retrieve anything. and again, it's word of mouth. so they might not know that we're we're engaging. so everyone is very confused, very slipshod and very chaotic. >> they can't get emails finding out whether they've been fired or not. right. people are working in the dark without access to their contact lists, without access to each other. and then the work itself is, you know, around the globe. this isn't because elon musk doesn't know how to run the federal government or dismantle it. this is because he doesn't care. this is because he wants to punish this people. these people, as russell vote, who's now the head of the omb, said, we want to traumatize these people. that is exactly what they are doing. >> can i sit down? why? why are they so mad at usaid? >> i think the so christina, the woman that we just played some sound from, told me that one of the first things they did was

take down all the photographs in the usaid office that showed the humanitarian and development projects that they have around the world and the people affected by them. right. and that was so indicative, i think, of the of the vengeful nature of all this and the own the libs sort of sentiment that i think is at the core of this, which was the same sentiment elon musk held when he bought twitter. right. we're going to turn this into a right wing mouthpiece. we're going to take this away from you. the idea of these sort of touchy feely liberals doing global, you know, aid work is something elon musk wants to stamp out. he wants to crush them. it's not just because he thinks it's a sprawling bureaucracy that the american taxpayer should be paying for. and that's being, you know, generous. it's because he wants to crush the do gooders. he wants to crush the people who have the big hearts, the bleeding liberals, i mean, and one of the ways you do that is by taking away the evidence of their good works, which is why all the photographs are gone and they're just empty frames hanging on the wall of usaid. it's insane. >> it's bizarre. tyler, take us through your exquisitely crafted piece today.

>> well, first of all, nicole, thanks for having me. and it's great to join you as well. alex, the reason why i wrote this piece is because of the very question that you asked at the top of this segment, who is running the federal government? i like all of the viewers watching, was constantly getting push notifications. that complicated the answer to what i thought should be a very uncomplicated question, which is should be our democratic, democratically elected leaders. and as i was thinking through this question, it reminded me a lot of my time in south africa in 2015 and 2016. they went through their own experience of what was called what is called state capture, and i felt like it was important not to downplay what's happening as as simple run of the mill pay to play corruption, but it's actually something wider and more severe, which is, as i said, state capture. and what that describes is, is, is the capture of the entire government apparatus to direct its resources toward

mostly private interests who are close to the president. and so i wanted to put that on the table and sort of raise the alarms and raise that question of, you know, what are we actually seeing here? and is it is it more than corruption? >> let me read from it. you write this, the details vary by context. but the political scientist elizabeth david barrett lays out three general mechanisms of state capture. they now sound familiar shaping the rules of the game through law and policy, influencing administrative decisions by capturing the budget, appointments, government contracts and regulatory decisions, and disabling checks on power by dismantling accountability structures like the judiciary, law enforcement and prosecution, and audit institutions like the inspectors general and the media. i guess what's amazing to me, tyler, is how quickly they've they've zipped through that list. >> it's true. i want to caveat the similarities by saying that there is something of an anna

karenina principle here, that the famous line that all happy families are happy in the same way, but all unhappy families are unhappy in their own way. this certainly varies by context, and i think that's an important part of the story, speed being one of them. what's happening in the united states is unfolding much more quickly than what happened in south africa. but the reason why i thought state capture was such an apt label to slap on what's happening is, is that especially that third mechanism you pointed out, state capture not only describes what's happening, but but how it happens, how elites are able to take power and maintain it. the third mechanism being key to that. so it's as as you said, it's disabling checks on power by dismantling these accountability mechanisms, not only in government. so those include, of course, the inspectors general, another monitoring and oversight bodies, but also institutions outside of government, the media and other other forms. and so it was that that reason why it's so pernicious and so difficult to

uproot once state capture takes hold. >> i want to press both of you on where and why there hasn't been more resistance. why? why no one has been able to slow this down. no one's going this down. no one's going anywhere. we'll the itch and rash of moderate to severe eczema disrupts my skin, night and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now, i have rinvoq. rinvoq is a once-daily pill... that reduces the itch... and helps clear the rash of eczema— ...fast. some taking rinvoq felt significant itch relief as early as 2 days. and some achieved dramatic skin clearance... as early as 2 weeks. many saw clear or almost-clear skin. rinvoq can lower ability to fight infections. before treatment, test for tb and do bloodwork. serious infections, blood clots, some fatal... cancers, including lymphoma and skin; serious allergic reactions; gi tears; death; heart attack; and stroke occurred. cv event risk increases in age 50 plus with a heart disease risk factor.

tell your doctor if you've had these events, infection, hep b or c, smoked, are pregnant or planning. don't take if allergic or have an infection. ♪♪ disrupt the itch & rash of eczema. talk to your dermatologist about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. where ya headed? susan: where am i headed? am i just gonna take what the markets gives me? no. i can do some research. ya know, that's backed by j.p. morgan's leading strategists like us. when you want to invest with more confidence... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management [coughing] copd isn't pretty. from the struggle to breathe... to getting stopped in your tracks. bye, grandma. ♪♪ but with trelegy, i can finally move forward. with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flare-ups. once-daily trelegy also improves lung function,

so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes or eye pain occur. ♪what a wonderful world♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for copd because breathing should be beautiful, all day and night. ichi, ni, san, shi... (1,2,3,4 . . ) ruri never thought she would live out her dream. then one day, she did. you were made to chase your passions. we were made to put them in a package. (man 1) we're standing up for our right to be lazy. (woman 1) by sitting down. (man 2) and reclining back. (woman 2) we work full-time and parent full-time. (man 3) we will be reclined until further notice. (woman 3) it's our right to let the dishes soak overnight.

(man 4) and to mow the lawn... tomorrow-ish. (man 5) we proudly declare that yes, we are still watching that. (woman 4) and no, we won't be cooking tonight. (man 6) we, the lazy, are taking back lazy... (woman 5) ...by getting comfy on our la-z-boy furniture. (vo) la-z-boy. long live the lazy. jeans. brand new. >> one more about celebtyses la. >> for plant based healthy blood pressure support. there's one brand at walmart that stands above the rest. it's super beats. discover why more cardiologists recommend super beats for heart health support than any other beat brand at super beats. com. >> elon musk, you know, in the last 24 hours, says we're shutting down usaid. it almost feels like a slow motion coup, right? like you go in and you

start massacring the people in charge of oversight. late on a friday night, you have unelected people effectively storming in one way or another, government buildings and demanding to control the levers. am i overreacting when i think of this as something just extraordinarily dramatic that's playing out within the federal government? >> oh no. these are dramatic changes. there's no question about it. >> as someone who's been in the federal government, are you alarmed by this? >> certainly by the removal of the 18 igs. yes. that's alarming. and some of the other, you know, actions that we've seen are very aggressive. and this is going to be a total makeover of the federal government. this is going to change the way, you know, the federal government interacts with the american people and the world. and so i think we've got to brace ourselves for that. but yes, i mean, there's no question it's alarming. >> that is mark greenblatt, who was one of the inspectors general who was fired. and what i think some people are calling a friday night massacre when i think 17 of them were fired. he

was the ig for the interior department. and it's hard to get you know, these guys are not alarmists, right? they're reluctant to say, this is code red, but quite obviously, to tyler's point, firing the oversight of the federal government and dismantling, you know, the accountability structures, which is exactly what happened here is a dramatic turn towards state capture. everything he outlined outlines in his piece. and one of the reasons i think it's hard to get the coverage that this deserves is because people are either terrified they don't want to go on camera, they don't want to talk to the media, they don't want to become a target, or they they can't figure out whether they have it in them to resist. right. there's a lot of people out there who feel broken by what is happening and don't know if they have the wherewithal to stand up and say, no, not this time. >> so, tyler, are there are there off ramps or are we heading toward a predetermined end game here? >> well, first i want to just echo everything alex said. i mean, one of the reasons i think

that we're seeing maybe an incoherent message at best, and at worst a sort of silence from the democrats is just the speed and the brazenness at which a lot of these things are taking place. alex, use the term slow motion coup, but it's much faster this these things are unfolding much faster than, than what happened in south africa. i think there's also a lot of these are a lot of bureaucratic structures that americans themselves don't know much about. usaid, i think is a great early target because it's a it has it's doing things in faraway places that are not necessarily maybe for american citizens, although that's that's not really the whole the whole truth. i think highlighting the differences is not all bad. so in the in the american case, as i said, it's interesting that what's happening is, is so out in the open, either elon musk himself is posting about his plans on x or, you know, excellent reporting from alex and others are surfacing what's happening. there certainly are off ramps. if you look at the case of south africa, if you

look at where this has happened in brazil and elsewhere, there is a lot of pain in the short to medium term. but state capture does not have to be a permanent state of affairs. i laid out a few potential avenues to uproot state capture in my piece. that includes really relying on what monitoring and accountability structures are uncaptured still within the government. i pointed out a few, but it's also raising the alarms. i mean, alex pointed out so well that a lot of these people by nature are not alarmist. they're seeing the next four years as a marathon, not a sprint. and you don't want to have a boy who cried wolf phenomenon. and that's really what motivated my piece. i think this is cause for alarm. and it should be this early, because once state capture takes hold, because it targets those accountability structures. that's why it's so hard to change. >> who is right now the counter to elon musk. >> i mean, i don't know that there is one i mean, i think the

democrats are you you saw the democrats begin to find their voice. i thought yesterday at that protest in front of the treasury department, it felt catalytic. it felt like, okay, maybe the tide is turning and they feel like they have they can they have an agenda. but i mean, it's been scattershot, you know, and i would say there are plenty of people who used to be in the government who are republicans, who are former elected officials, who should and can speak out now. and to tyler's point, now is the time, right? not waiting three months from now when the havoc is literally being wrought on the american citizenry. >> when every secretary of state has walked into the oval office and fought for the budgets of usaid for national security reasons and humanitarian and other, that includes mike pompeo. that includes condi rice, that includes every democratic and republican secretary of state. and to your point, i've heard from none of them. >> exactly their former presidents, who know that an unelected billionaire has no place digging around in the cms systems deciding who gets medicare and medicaid payments. >> do we just pay former presidents as well?

>> yeah we did. can you hear us? >> we're on for nine more minutes. tyler, we're going to call on you again. fantastic piece. thank you for joining us to talk about it. alex wagner, my table is your table. you come sit here every day. thank you for doing this reporting. it's incredible. thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. >> the new. you're welcome. the new podcast trumpland is out now. it's updated with all of alex's great reporting. she's traveling the country for us, reporting firsthand on the effects of donald trump's policies and promises, for better or for worse. scan the qr code on the screen or search trumpland wherever you listen to trumpland wherever you listen to your podcast. another break (shower water runs) (♪♪) (♪♪) business. it's not a nine-to-five proposition. it's all day and into the night. it's all the things that keep this world turning.

it's the go-tos that keep us going. the places we cheer. trust. hang out. and check in. they all choose the advanced network solutions and round the clock partnership from comcast business. powering more businesses than anyone. powering possibilities. krista, this is like the third year you're 45. screen for colon cancer already! and cancel brunch?! ask for cologuard®. it's effective and you can screen at home. it's for people 45+ at average, not high-risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. —hi! —hi! ♪♪ chocolate fundraiser. ♪♪ with the chase mobile app, things move a little more smoothly. ♪♪ deposit checks easily and send money quickly. [coins clinking] ♪♪

that's convenience from chase. make more of what's yours. coq10 levels. i recommend taking qanon coq10. schnoll has three qanon coq10. schnoll has three times better new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job on indeed, it's easier for talented candidates to find it. which makes it easier for you to hire them. visit indeed.com/hire (vo 1) when you really philosophize about it, whthere's one thing you fodon't have enough of, and that's time. time is a truly scarce commodity. when you come to that realization, i think it's very important to spend time wisely. and what better way of spending time than traveling, continuing to educate ourselves and broaden our minds.

(vo 2) viking. exploring the world in comfort. if you take or have taken humira for moderate to severe crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis and still have symptoms... you don't have to settle. ask your gastroenterologist if switching to rinvoq is right for you. it's one of the latest treatments from the makers of humira. rinvoq works differently than humira and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can deliver rapid symptom relief, lasting steroid-free remission, and helps visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. rinvoq can lower ability to fight infections. before treatment, test for tb and do bloodwork. serious infections, blood clots, some fatal; ...cancers, including lymphoma and skin; serious allergic reactions; gi tears; death; heart attack; and stroke occurred. cv event risk increases in age 50 plus with a heart disease risk factor. tell your doctor if you've had these events, infection, hep b or c, smoked, are pregnant or planning. don't take if allergic or have an infection. rapid symptom relief and lasting steroid-free remission are possible with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist

to switching to rinvoq is right for you. you could pay as little as $0 per month. icon. stephen a smith proved that to sean hannity last night when they got into it. on trump blaming die for the d.c. plane crash. watch. >> i don't want to hear die automatically being about people who happen to be minorities that are unqualified. that is what i was saying. i said it's one thing to get rid of it altogether. it's another thing entirely to articulate and verbalize the position that, excuse me, you know what? everybody that was associated with die are unqualified individuals. we don't want unqualified individuals, particularly in public safety. >> then, while on the topic of unqualified individuals, former fox news weekend host and the current secretary of defense, pete hegseth came up. >> i'm simply saying, my god,

sean, when you're talking about people who are unqualified, i wish him nothing but the best. he served our country, you know, in the military. i get all of that. but when you are weekend host on fox news and now you're the defense secretary of the united states overseeing 3.5 million people, let me ask you, does not serve. does not serve. >> how about them (tony hawk) i still love to surf, snowboard, and of course, skate, so i take qunol magnesium to support my muscle and bone health. qunol's high-absorption magnesium glycinate helps me get the full benefits of magnesium. qunol. the brand i trust. gotta have a lucky charm when you ride, right? makes me feel safe and protected out there. that's why i never leave home without a photo of the little ones. bracelet from my husband. lucky rabbit's foot. lucky rabbit named sfoot. it's swedish. that's a whole rabbit. named sfoot. well, there's really no need for a lucky charm when you ride. not when america's #1 motorcycle insurer's got your back.

we're just going to ignore the fact that carl has a rabbit. named sfoot. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. our advanced matching helps find talented candidates, so you can connect with them fast. visit indeed.com/hire until this week, my dad did not know where he was from. it means the world to share ancestry® with my dad. so nigeria, this is where it all started. so they've broken it down by regions, by journeys, and by parent. man, this is deep. this is my way of saying thank you to him. when emergency strikes, first responders are the first ones in... but on outdated networks, the crucial technology they depend on, is limited. that's why t-mobile created t-priority... ...the only solution built for the 5g era, that can dynamically dedicate up to 10 times the capacity for first responders.

t-priority. built for tomorrow's emergencies. ready today. (♪♪) doctor recommended qanon coq10. qanon has the number one the way i approach work post fatherhood, has really trying to understand the generation that we're building devices for.

here in the comcast family, we're building an integrated in-home wifi solution for millions of families like my own. in the average household, there are dozens of connected devices. connectivity is a big part of my boys' lives. it brings people together in meaningful ways. country. and rachel maddow is on five nights a week. >> now is. >> the time, so we're going to do it. settle in. >> the rachel maddow. >> show weeknights at 9:00 on msnbc. >> what we do is try to cut right to the bone of what we're seeing in washington that day. thank you so much for letting us into your homes. we are so grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicole. >> the only reason that. >> i don't banter with you every day is with everything