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>> hi everyone. happy friday. >> it's 4:00 in new york. we meet at the end of a. >> week today. punctuated by. >> a reality. check and a real window on how our institutions are meeting this. >> moment, how they're withstanding. >> the pressure from. >> the new. >> president and the new trump administration. >> we're talking. >> about news. >> today of a bit. >> of a reprieve for the men. >> and women. >> of the fbi agents who have been forced to fill out. >> a rather ominous. >> questionnaire that detailed their involvement. >> in any. >> way in. >> any of the. >> january 6th cases. men and women of. >> the. >> fbi. >> who. then learned. >> that the justice. >> department was leaning on. >> fbi leadership. >> to. >> hand over those. >> names. >> a demand that fbi leadership first refused to. comply with and instead turned over id numbers. >> the men and. >> women of. >> the. fbi who. >> woke up. >> this morning, then. >> to the news that after all that acting. >> fbi director brian. >> driscoll, in. >> effect. >> blinked in the standoff with the justice. department and. >> did, in fact, turn. >> over the. >> full names.

>> of every fbi. >> agent who worked on. any january 6th case. to put it bluntly, this was unnerving just because of the risk. >> it poses. >> to the men and women of the fbi and their families, but also because of what it says about the current strength of our institutions, of that institution. but what happens next is arguably just as important and instructive. within hours of news that the names of all the fbi agents who worked on january 6th cases had been turned over to the justice department, there was another development. we learned this, quote, the trump administration has agreed to keep private a list of fbi employees who worked on january 6th cases, unless it first provides a two day head start for the employees to seek a court's intervention. the agreement between the fbi agents association and. >> donald trump's. >> justice department deescalates for now, a. showdown between the bureau and the department of justice. the agreement also, quote, bars the entire federal government. not

just. the justice department, from making any part of the list public without giving two business days notice. that would allow attorneys for the fbi personnel to ask the judge for further relief. for now, it is a breakthrough for those fbi agents and their families who had their names handed over to the justice department. relief, however temporary, from what was reported to be deep anxiety felt by countless fbi agents. and while there is no guarantee that they'll be protected forever, the imminent threat of having their identities out there has been alleviated, at least for today. it is also a reminder that although our institutions are being challenged in unprecedented ways, they are not without power. they're not without access to the courts. the fbi is an institution with a storied history, not a perfect history, but essential to american life and americans security. so let what happened today be one of our first lesson

in the fbi push back. donald trump's justice department was willing to reach a compromise. it remains to be seen if kash patel, the incoming fbi director, will change the fbi beyond recognition. but for now, round one goes to the workforce, the men and women who want to get back to the business of protecting the american people. it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends with me at the table, former top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann is here. also joining us, former federal prosecutor, former lawyer with the doj national security division, brendan belew, is here. also joining us is new york times justice department reporter glenn thrush. glenn, we may as well move this forward. what does happen when kash patel gets there? >> well. >> we i should say that that has not yet he has not yet been confirmed. and we're. >> expecting at the. earliest of. >> the middle of this month as being a vote on his on his

confirmation. forgive me. i'm losing my voice. it's been a long week. >> we had we had. >> the script. we made it to friday, and i took it out. and, your honor, i should have left it in. we made it to friday. >> well. >> i. >> just. hope it's not going to be a long weekend. yeah. but i think, curiously enough, i've spoken to some, some people over the past couple of days who have actually said to me, we're looking forward to having kash patel, a guy who has an enemies list and talked about turning into fbi, turning fbi headquarters into a museum, having him on board because he'd be more accountable and have to testify before congress, unlike interim leadership. so i think we're dealing with a situation here in which the department of justice and emil bove, who is the number three person in the justice department, number two person in the justice department right now, has been the prime mover, essentially walked into a

bit of an ambush because in addition to kind of the institutional authority that the fbi still has, there is still that residual power in terms of its hold on the public, because there's a big difference. and i think i said this last time we spoke. big difference between going after the chiefs, the people who made the supervisory decisions about these cases, and individual field agents who are simply doing what they were told to do. so i think part of this, the question here is, and i think more so than kash patel, pam bondi, who has really gone out of her way to portray herself as having a degree of independence from the white house. will pam bondi, the new attorney general, provide sufficient protection for the fbi's workforce that this particular attempt attempt at getting these names, which has already chilled the building,

will stop? >> andrew weissman. >> i think. >> it's really. >> important to. not have. >> the overton window sort of move along where we don't remember. >> how crazy. >> this is. there is no legitimate reason for these. >> names to. >> ever be public. >> these people. >> whether the field. >> people, the. >> agents and. >> analysts and staff. >> who worked on the january. >> 6th cases or the senior leadership, they. >> were doing. >> righteous work. >> we have. a beauvais and now pam. >> bondi. >> the. >> official attorney general, describing the january. >> 6th. >> prosecutions as a grave national. >> injustice. >> as has donald trump. >> that is false. >> the people who worked on it. were doing something for the public. >> the names. >> of the people who worked on it, to have it ever be public. >> that that. >> they worked on it to have a

target. this shouldn't be. oh. >> they. >> have 48 hours to get to court. it should never be released. so i just want to make sure people understand how nutty this is. the second part of what is at issue is not just the list, which by the way, now there is that list, and there's the fear that somebody is going to leak it against. >> the. >> court order that's in place not to. and so understand the precariousness for all of the people on that. that's thousands of people who have to worry about that for doing their job for us. and the second part is they're all subject to heightened scrutiny for employment action. how do we know that? emil bove, in his memo says that's the purpose of the list. people who did their job to figure out what happened and who's responsible for january 6th cases that every single judge who has had these cases has said it's righteous.

these are people who are being held to that kind of scrutiny. this is really the inmates running the show. >> could anyone at the fbi investigate a case that the director of the fbi didn't direct them to investigate? >> no. everything. >> if that. >> that would be a firable if you did something that was not approved. now, granted, the director is not approving each and every one, but if you did something that was against the senior leadership and against policy and that, by the way, that's true whether republican or democratic, whatever the policy is, you have to follow it. there's no question the january 6th cases were righteous. just let's remember, and i've said this in lots of people have pointed this out. these cases were ones that republican leadership in congress were supportive of on the day of and the day after. you keep making the point. ted cruz was saying that mitch mcconnell was saying it, but

also the cases began under the trump administration and trump 1.0. >> i guess i ask that because i'm from the west. so there are all sorts of stories about grizzly bear attacks on our local news. i've never seen a scenario where when the grizzly bear and in this story the grizzly bear is, you know, trump and the maga movement where a parent doesn't, doesn't protect the family from the grizzly bear. why isn't chris wray all over fox news saying, i led the department, no one freelanced. it went out on a case. i made them do it. i called, i made the call that these were crimes worthy of investigating. and i'm not saying it belongs on this show, but why isn't he all over television defending his workforce? >> well, you know, that's a great question. and i, you know, the i and you, i think, agree that he should not have stepped down, that it was a sign of that the justice department doesn't

have and the fbi doesn't have the sort of apolitical history per the you know, congress has a ten year term that's supposed to mean that it it's regardless of sort of president. and by stepping down, he was really saying that's really on paper only. and each president should just have a new person. that's not the way it's supposed to work. >> it also leaves the workforce. it leaves an impression that he did something wrong. and so he's going to let it change a policy. there's no policy at the fbi. and you can you can change priorities. there's no there's no. january 6th was a policy priority of chris wray's, but it won't be. i mean, to your point about the overton window, christopher wray walking out sends the clearest signal yet to the to the to the to the american people having any power in this moment. it's that they heard what glenn's talking about, that actual fbi agents who stopped child sex traffickers, who stopped serial killers, who stopped drug cartels, they were screwed because some of them had to go interview january 6th. insurrectionists and their names

were on a list. christopher wray told all of those people to investigate. january 6th. where is he? >> right. so let me just give a shout out to one group of people who have been speaking up, and that is the judges in dc, the judges who are handling the cases. that and again, these are judges that were nominated by republicans, democrats, including trump nominees have all been speaking out. and they in all of the cases that have to be dismissed, per the department of justice order, you have the former chief judge, beryl howell, you have judge chutkan, you have amy berman jackson, just today talking about michael flynn's heroism will never be moot, speaking out about the fact that these cases cannot be whitewashed. and so, you know, what you are seeing is one branch of government really

doing what it's supposed to do and being fearless. and i hear your point about other people i just wanted to like and that's a totally legitimate point, but it's worth noting that there are people who are saying this is wrong. >> who did you report to? >> i reported to the section chief of the capitol siege. >> section, and. >> he reported to the u.s. attorney. and the u.s. >> attorney reported. >> to. >> the attorney general. >> and if the attorney general didn't want cases prosecuted against insurrectionists, would the chain of command have done what it did? >> absolutely not. >> that would have been insurrection within the organization. >> so do you le with a real fear of being targeted and prosecuted? >> you know, there's. >> obviously you. >> get threats. >> as anybody. >> involved in the january. >> 6th cases does. >> there's sort of the immediate. >> physical danger. >> and i would say, you know, i think. >> anybody that's associated with the department. >> of justice is. >> insulated in a lot. >> of ways that. >> you know.

>> folks that. >> were targeted on this campaign. >> completely unrelated to january 6th, are not. >> migrants. >> trans people, and so forth. >> there's the physical risk. >> but i think. >> the more likely risk going forward is politically. >> motivated investigations. >> and prosecutions, not just. >> of the. >> prosecutors, but of the analysts, the. >> special agents. >> over at the fbi who were, as you say, literally just doing their jobs. >> what is the degree of resources or or legal defense or i mean, what is available to you as someone who is just doing your job? >> yeah. >> i am encouraged. >> i think that the private bar. >> is really. >> stepping up haybe not publicly yet, but. >> we've. >> been getting a. >> lot. >> of phone. >> calls from folks. >> that want to. >> be. >> helpful here. >> so i. >> think if it comes to the. >> point where. >> there are litigations. >> or prosecutions. >> against the prosecutors. investigators and. >> so forth. >> i think there's going to be. >> a lot of support. >> i'll also. >> just say that. >> even talking.

>> about these sorts of things can be helpful in that. >> while i. >> have little. >> doubt that there are a lot. >> of folks in this. >> administration that would like to. >> bring prosecutions for those who. >> were involved. >> in the january. >> 6th cases. >> i think as they start to. think through that a little. >> bit more, they're going to realize. >> that those cases. >> are an opportunity to talk. >> again about what actually happened on. >> january 6th. >> and i. >> think that ultimately, that. >> might not. >> look as good for the administration. >> as they think. >> say more. >> well, you. >> know, if the. >> if. >> the case. >> is going to be that these were politically motivated. prosecutions with the intent of depriving. peaceful protesters of. >> their constitutional rights, well, then a lot of that case. >> is going. >> to hinge. >> on what were the underlying. >> facts of that day. >> and what were the. >> motivations for bringing. >> these cases. and once you get into that. >> question. >> you have the opportunity to bring in a whole lot of. video from. january 6th showing the danger that that riot. >> that riot and those. >> rioters posed. >> and again. >> something like. that might. >> backfire for this administration. >> you know, glenn, it's it just

brings back an echo to all the fantastic new york times reporting over the entire first term of the trump presidency, i think, to the last week of bill barr's tenure, where trump wanted to prosecute comey and he wanted i mean, he wanted to turn doj and the fbi against his perceived political enemies. and it is interesting how, i mean, to andrew weissman's point about the overton window. i mean, the people, the people that are there, i mean, there was no way to make trump 1.0 folks look great again other than to see trump 2.0 folks. but the idea that there is now an attorney general whose policy on paper is this eo, this, this weaponization work group, that there are actual people trying to do what trump sought to do by tweet and have people like jeff berman at ccny step down and write a book about it. after clashing with bill barr, had people resisting him at every level of the justice department. it is a whole new sort of floodgate to entertaining, and maybe not until you get to the

point brennan is talking about where you're looking at the evidence. well, it's eight hours and a bunch of texts from the insurrectionists saying trump just tweeted bad things about pence. let's go beat up some cops. i mean, it is interesting how much further trump's ambition of using doj and the fbi to prosecute his enemies will go this time. >> bill barr will hate this, but you know, he's looking pretty good to democrats right now. no one will hate that more than. >> i don't know how good he looks, but he he looked. like he had a line that they don't pretend to have. right? yeah. >> no, there was there was a general sense of mlc. you know, bondi is what, 24 hours on this job. so we'll see how she comports herself. but to the point that was made earlier. there are a lot of people, republicans up on the hill who don't want trump to push too hard on this. even on the jack smith stuff. i think one of the real untold stories is the extent to which even house

republicans are concerned about jack smith popping up in public and making the case to the american people that he was not allowed necessarily to make in courtrooms. and i think i don't know if trump is necessarily cognizant of that particular danger, but i do know that there are people around him and his allies on the hill who are very aware that that is not a good look. so you hear these kind of euphemisms thrown around bondi in her confirmation hearing and in conversations with republican senators, was talking about looking forward into the future and not into the past. that's a euphemism for dealing with the thing that got him elected, which was tough on crime sort of stuff. so the question is, and i think this is writ large for the entire trump presidency, you have a you have a vengeance agenda and you have an implementation agenda. and at some point those two might come into collision. and i think if he the harder he pushes at doj

to have some sort of a concrete result that really hurts individuals, i think the more difficult it's going to be for people like bondi to move ahead on the implementation agenda. >> it's so interesting. glenn thrush i once anchored with that voice. you have to rest it. we will see you when you are better. thank you for starting us off when we come back, letter by letter today. crews making sure the words u.s. agency for international development no longer exists at the ronald reagan building in washington, d.c. just hours before nearly the entire staff of usaid is expected to be removed from their jobs, something the president himself has demanded publicly over and over and over again, with an inexplicable frenzy. and a judge right now is weighing whether to, at least temporarily, block him from dismantling this agency. plus, continuing with the theme of punishing federal workers everywhere, the architect of project 2025, who has made it clear he wants to wreck the

government, was approved by every single republican in the senate to lead the office of management and budget. we'll look at what russell vote has planned. lots more to come straight ahead and deadline. white house continues after a white house continues after a quick break. don't go i'm thinking of updating my kitchen... ...thinking of redoing our kitchen. ...we are finally updating our kitchen. for all those people who never seem to get around to it... —...a breakfast nook. —chase has financial guidance. let's see how you can start saving... —really? —really? at home or in-person. that's guidance from chase. we've never spoken. but you've told us many things. that you love stargazing, hate parallel parking, and occasionally, your right foot gets a little heavy. the lexus es didn't begin in a studio — it began with you. ♪♪ business. the lexus es didn't begin in a studio — it began with you. it's not a nine-to-five proposition. it's all day and into the night. it's all the things that keep this world turning. it's the go-tos that keep us going. the places we cheer. trust.

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just. >> 4.99 a month. >> call 1-888-246-2612 or visit homeserve. com. >> donald trump. >> is defending the. >> mass firings of federal watchdogs. >> our federal. >> government now can discriminate. >> against the. >> citizens of. >> the country. >> we are all watching and waiting to see who is. >> going to. >> hold the line. don't miss the weekends, saturday, and sunday mornings at. >> 8:00. >> on msnbc. >> what we. >> do is try to cut right to the. bone of. >> what we're seeing in. >> washington that day. hour by hour and minute by minute, up to and including this afternoon. the trump administration's chaotic disassembly of the federal government proceeds virtually unabated. a short time ago, unions representing federal employees filed a motion for a temporary restraining order, one that would pause the

administration's effort to shut down usaid. their filing provides what are called declarations, specific first person examples of the actual harm done by what one calls an inhumane shutdown. a foreign service officer, 32 weeks pregnant, scrambling after a disruption to medical care. another insisting he and his two young children will end up homeless as a result of the order. the judge ordered the parties in that lawsuit to appear for an in-person hearing. just last hour. we're monitoring that. any updates we'll bring to you immediately. trump, for his part, is shouting close it down on social media. and as the new york times points out, accusing the agency of unspecified rampant corruption and fraud without any evidence, he had previously asserted that the agency was, quote, run by radical lunatics, end quote. we'll call it what it is, though a wholesale dismantling of a government agency that does a whole lot of good. the trump

administration revised its figures earlier today. the total number of essential personnel at usaid is apparently now 611, up from their original estimate of 290. but the increase is really just a drop in the bucket. there are more than 5000 foreign service officers, civil servants and personal service contractors employed all across the globe. under that original plan, only 12 people would be dedicated to the entire continent of africa. eight people for all of asia, ten for europe, down from about 600. yes, it is a dramatic retreat from the world stage, but it is also a shot aimed squarely at our own feet. consider what's about to happen to american farmers. according to the washington post, reporting purchases and shipments of u.s. food aid worth over $340 million, including rice, wheat and soybeans, have been paused during trump's foreign aid freeze, according to

officials and an email obtained by the washington post. that has left hundreds of tons of american grown wheat stranded in houston alone. joining our conversation is new york times congressional reporter karoun demirjian. also still with us, andrew and brendan kern. tell us what's happening right now. well. >> as you. >> said, we're waiting. >> to. >> find out what happens with this court filing. >> and this hearing. >> that is happening. >> this afternoon. >> if that judge issues some form of. >> restraining order or. >> order that. >> you know, the plans. >> for the further. >> dismantling of u.s. aid. >> can't go forward. remember, today is the day that all the direct hires. >> are supposed to. >> be put on administrative leave, and that we were expecting to see the contractors. >> being let go. >> at 11:59 p.m. >> is that. >> when that's supposed to happen? >> according to the notice that the. >> administration put out earlier this week on the usaid website. so it's really getting down to the wire. >> about whether. >> this is going. >> to be. >> an irreversible. point of crossing. and right now, as you said, we're waiting to see

exactly how many people are retained and if they are folded into the state department and what that looks like. we also reported that about. 290 people were the goal of what the administration was. >> trying to do, and communicated that. >> to senior staff yesterday. and now we have this slightly higher number. >> but it's still a. >> massively drastic chop to the size of that workforce. karine, do we have any clear understanding of why donald trump hates usaid? well, look, the president made no secret of. >> his disdain for. >> foreign aid. and clearly, elon. >> musk, who he deputized. >> to make to run this task force. >> that's making. >> government cuts. >> the department of government efficiency. >> also has. >> been very. >> very vocal. >> about his disdain for. >> foreign aid and usaid. >> in particular. i think that a. >> lot of people, though, in that agency. >> were kind of. >> stunned by how complete this onslaught has. been and how drastic the. >> cuts have been. >> a lot of them assumed, you know, okay, fine. he doesn't like foreign aid, but we're such a tiny sliver of the budget. there's been so much vitriol spewed towards doj and fbi.

>> it couldn't. >> possibly be. >> us first on. >> the chopping block. and of course, they've been had. >> this rude awakening because. >> it certainly has been. >> a near-complete gutting or. >> it promises. >> to be a near-complete. >> gutting of that agency, which is, of course, as you know. >> the united states government's lead. agency for doing. >> humanitarian aid and development work. >> across the globe. >> karen, let me show you what someone who i worked with in the bush administration, a former administrator of usaid, said on morning joe this morning. >> how do you think. >> food aid gets moved? >> it doesn't just. >> appear it magically. >> you have to have people. experts in logistics, 294 people to spend to spend $38 billion. what are they, idiots? i don't think they have any idea the consequences of what they're doing. they're just they have a wrecking ball. they go into an agency, destroy it, and they're on to somewhere else. they're going after the fbi. now, cia, the same thing. we are in a

conflict around the world with china and russia. some people, the president said, were bordering on world war three. we're destroying all our foreign the apparatus. >> of. >> our international affairs apparatus in the us government just before we are in conflict. i mean, it's madness to do this. >> this is a i can attest to his right far right conservative bonafides there. what does marco rubio think of this? >> i mean. >> look. >> as a. >> senator, marco rubio had a fairly decent track record of saying he thought foreign aid was important. but as the secretary of state, he. >> has. >> been trying to. >> explain this as. >> having been a necessary step because usaid was not compliant with the trump administration's requests for furnishing. >> what they needed. >> to do this full review of foreign aid. he has tried to say, look, don't panic. you can apply for waivers. we're not trying to rush you home. people posted abroad in 30 days the way it seemed like they were. he's also said we're not trying. >> to be punitive. >> here or cause anybody, you

know, long term harm. >> and i think there's still a lot of. >> good that usaid does. the problem is, though, that the, you. >> know. >> giant, giant nature. >> of this. >> job is going. >> to. >> make it very, very difficult for the agency employees, whether they're working for that agency or under state, to. >> do the work. >> that they've. tried to do. >> i think. >> at this point right now, you have people inside that agency who still have who are still considered essential, still have a voice at the table or are trying to are fighting to bring more people on board because or retain more positions, i should say, because they're saying, look, we. cannot do the life saving work that we do, the humanitarian work, the disaster responses. the stuff that the administration and rubio has suggested they want to continue. >> we can't. >> do that on a skeleton staff. >> and so if you want to do that. >> at. >> all. >> you can't make these chops. and that's the fight that's going on right now behind closed doors in these last hours before everybody is put on administrative leave or laid off. when you change administrations, andrew and mr. natsios made this clear yesterday. he said it took a month to change the entire

orientation around policy preferences of the george w bush administration, for whom he worked then the previous clinton administration. he said it took him about four weeks. even if you were not one of the best people in three months, it could have been doing only what trump wanted it to do. in march, trump could submit a budget and cut it in half. this is not about changing the mission. it's not about corruption. it's not about spending less money. it is about destruction. >> absolutely. so i want to make sure people understand there's nothing. if this was just about we think that government should be smaller, and we think that we can do this in a more surgical way. have at it. i mean, that is not a bad program. that is not a bad thing to do. obviously, we've talked about elections have consequences. you have a different policy that the person we just listened to is clearly had a different policy than the clinton administration before him, and he changed it. and he testified yesterday on your show about saying, and those people

carried it out because they're career people. i view this as a the goal is wrecking. i mean, the goal isn't to do any of this work. it is if you put it in a piece with what pam bondi has signaled she is going to do at the justice department. you really have a clear path for adversaries. the usaid is a way to have. yes, it is a good humanitarian thing to do, but there is also a strategic thing for america in terms of its goals overseas. you know, money buys influence and it buys influence on the national security stage. it involves health issues that where we get notice well in advance, that affects us. so there's like good and good. you get off that stage. russia china couldn't be

happier. that is exactly what pam bondi is doing. she is like, you know what, foreign corruption task force out the fcpa not going to use it. i mean, this is if you are russia and china and our foreign adversaries. this is america pulling back from the rest of the world and saying, we're not even going to when there's criminal action and you want to interfere with our elections, we're not we've pulled that back. i mean, it is it is. i want to make sure people understand the policy that is happening. and so this sing in court and there are tons of legal issues as a policy matter. this is something that is so detrimental to our interests. and i, i do not think that the voters are sitting there going, oh, i voted for this. i know people generally don't think about these issues front and center, but this is making us less safe in terms of our

health, in terms of our safety, in terms of criminal law, in terms of our adversaries. everything about the interference in our elections. pam bondi has been like, have at it. we are not investigating that. >> it's insane. i have to sneak in a quick break, but we'll keep this going. we are waiting to hear from the judge. considering the midnight deadline for the fate of usaid. we expect to hear from him any moment. he says he will, quote, let everyone know what the plan is. much more on this story than go anywhere. >> work. play. >> blink. relief. >> work. >> play. >> blink. >> relief. >> the only 3 in 1 extended relief formula for dry eyes. blink. i told you i don't need these anymore. i have sling. >> okay. warning. >> i only.

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celebrity. >> cruises latest offers. >> 60% of us aids programing is life saving, humanitarian assistance or global health programing to prevent critical diseases and to help heal and treat people 60% and yet these again falsehoods about projects that are allegedly going on here or there have come in such a short time to define us aids reputation, including with republican supporters of us aid who have stood with the agency over decades, who have seen these programs in the field, who have offered great insight and wisdom about how we can strengthen these programs and make them more cost effective. so it's just really important that the misinformation be be put to one side. i know this is easier said than done and that people remember what usaid is offering the american people and what it has done on behalf of the american people for six

decades. >> we have some breaking news that came in over the break. a federal judge has just paused the usaid administrative leave after hearing arguments in washington. judge carl nichols says he will grant the plaintiffs request for a temporary restraining order or pause of the planned administrative leave for thousands of usaid employees. judge nichols saying this quote, i will be entering tonight, sometime between now and midnight, a limited, very limited temporary restraining order that will be directed at the placement of the 2200 or 2700 employees on administrative leave, and then the accelerated removal of people from their countries, the administrative leave for 2200 usaid employees was scheduled to begin tonight at 11:59 p.m. what does this mean? >> well, judge nichols is an. >> extremely thoughtful. >> judge, so that he's landed. on this is a sign that, you know, what this administration is trying to. >> do is. >> probably well.

>> outside the legal and constitutional boundaries. in the last segment, andrew used an. >> important. >> word which was destruction, which seems to. >> be the intention. >> here. >> but i think it's destruction that's much. broader than usaid. you know, under. >> our constitutional. >> law, under statutory. >> law, you know, the. >> president is. >> supposed to administer the programs. >> that are appropriated. >> by congress. >> well, i think this. administration would like to change that. so i think what they expect to happen is this tro just got granted, maybe it becomes a preliminary. >> injunction, and. >> they're going to appeal that as quickly as possible and try to get it in front of a favorable supreme court. >> where they hope. >> they can really rewrite the playbook in in terms of presidential powers. >> what precedent would they argue, though, for stripping away congressional? i mean, he was impeached for this, for stripping away congressionally approved funds. >> yeah, there's not a lot of precedent, but there has been a change in personnel on. >> the supreme court. >> that's a good way to put it. karen, what do you understand this to mean for the workforce

of usaid? well, it extends this period of limbo. honestly, it would be my gut reaction to it. certainly it is a stay. it's a reprieve from the imminence that they were facing. >> of, you know. >> having to. >> put on administrative leave and the timeline of having. >> to get. >> out of country if they wanted the government to help fund their relocation costs. but it's not clear yet what the end game is, right? i mean, we may be in this position. >> for a couple. >> more weeks, a couple more months. i don't know how long it would take this type of case to move through the courts, but it doesn't solve the final question of where what happens to this agency. and remember, if the agency goes away, the agency funds a whole lot of projects, an entire aid sector, basically that relies on this money, these grants, these awards. there's radiating effects as well, because the united states has been pulling back contributions to various international agencies that do similar work. so, again, as far as the workforce is concerned, you know, the fears are stayed for a while, but i think they're probably still there, given that people don't know what the end

game. >> of this is and what they can. >> do thereafter, given that it's not just one agency of government, it's like a whole sector that could be going away. if this, if this, these orders are allowed to, to continue at some point down the road. andrew. >> so i just want to make sure people understand sort of the legal frame. there's tons of important things to say about the consequences, like the why should one care about usaid? i'm not the person really for that in terms of like legally, what's going on is all sorts of problems. when you act so precipitously. one when you have just contractors, there's going to if you just say, oh, wait, by the way, come back, you're not getting any more money. well, you know, they have contracts. so you. >> may like the farmers that provide the wheat or the peanuts. >> exactly. so you have americans who are who are providing the material, and then you also have vendors, like, not everyone who works at usaid is an employee. some of those people are under contract. so

all of this could be a huge amount of waste because you've reached those contracts. that's one bucket of problems. the second bucket is the same thing we've been talking about in terms of the department of justice and the fbi, which is people have rights, you know, yes, you can fire people for cause you can downsize. there are all things you can do. but the reason it takes a while is because people have rights. and if you just say you're gone, it reminds me of the muslim ban. if you do it precipitously, you end up with the same incompetence that we saw in trump 1.0. this is not better. the reason you're seeing all of these arrows is because the judges are saying, wait a second, you didn't. there are hoops you have to jump through you, nicole. you're entitled to be heard before this happens there. and so that's like a second bucket before you do this. and then the third is congress, which is the congress has the power of the purse. you can't just take that funding and say, you know what, i'd like to

spend it on something else. well, you know whose choice that is? that's congress's choice. they may not be speaking up, but that is illegal to do that. so you have these three buckets of legal issues where you really have the sense that this administration is we don't care, what are you going to do about it? and that is why you are seeing for the past week, court after court after court. and these are judges, by the way, this is not these judges are not the sort of like, oh, these are obama judges or biden judges. you are seeing this across the board because those are judges who believe in and have taken an oath to the rule of law. and that's why you're seeing these. you know, where it ultimately leads. we'll see. much of this will end up in the supreme court. but it's i really want to make sure people understand that there are rights here that courts are saying are or have been violated. and don't think that even though you heard about project 2025 and that these people are going to be so much

better in terms of implementation, the reason you're seeing all of this happening and these arrows is the same incompetence. >> totally. i mean, i think there's been a lot of mythology around the speed with which they pushed paper out the door, but not a real delta between the competence of 1.0 and 2.0. karen, thank karoun. thank you so much for your reporting on this. we'll continue to call on you when we come back. andrew and brandon have both been sounding the alarm about what else the trump administration has been up to just this week, actually, since wednesday, as andrew called it, making america great again. they'll both weigh great again. they'll both weigh in ♪ like a relentless weed, moderate to severe ulcerative colitis symptoms can keep coming back. start to break away from uc with tremfya... with rapid relief at 4 weeks. tremfya blocks a key source of inflammation.

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parodontax active gum repair breath freshener clinically proven to help reverse the 4 signs of early gum disease a toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts. tracking the trump administration's moves, things that have sort of flown under the radar so far, like the new attorney general and her first day in office, giving more freedom for foreign actors to influence and threaten american elections, or how work has essentially stopped at the consumer financial protection bureau. and that new chair of the ftc has said he will stop regulating artificial intelligence, both of them independent agencies that are meant to protect consumers. we're back with andrew and brendan. we talked about i had to look up when this happened wednesday. it feels like it happened forever ago. say more.

>> yeah. well, it does feel like it was forever ago. there was a lot that the new attorney general announced that day. and there's a lot that this administration was really excited to talk to the media. about weaponization of the department of justice. di trans rights and sanctuary cities. but there was. >> a. >> whole lot that they didn't talk about that day. and it's really the dismantling of a lot of the infrastructure. >> for going. >> after white collar crime and wrongdoing. so they didn't talk a whole lot about the fact that the career acting head of the antitrust division, which goes after. >> price. >> fixing, was pushed out of his job, that according to folks that i've been talking to, the one of the career heads in the tax division that goes after offshore bank accounts has been pushed out of his job. you know, i'm sure we'll talk more about the international aspect of this, but just very briefly disbanding the klepto capture task force within the national security division that goes

after oligarchs. it's really interesting that there's. >> a whole. >> lot of things that this administration says to its supporters, and then there's a whole lot of things that it does for its donors. >> this is a manafort was prosecutor. >> so yeah, so there's a couple statutes that that it's worth paying attention to. the foreign agents registration act. sounds complicated. but basically if you are a foreign person or a foreign government and you want to lobby here, if you want to affect public opinion here, you can do that. but you have to disclose what you're doing to the public. and you have a filing that's required by the department of justice. pam bondi said that those criminal prosecutions will end. that is something i'm dying to wait to hear senator grassley figure out how he's going to say, this is

great, because senator grassley has been, to his credit, somebody who has been talking about how this is such an important statute, this is to stop foreign grift here in the united states with lobbyists here, lobbyists hired overseas. >> why would you get rid of it? >> exactly. i mean, this is just notice that you have to do. and people were ignoring it. and during the mueller investigation and after that, the point of criminal prosecutions, which requires notice and proving intent, etc, was suddenly everyone was complying. there was the dramatically went up. that's what happens when you bring a criminal case, which is what senator grassley was saying needed to been done a long time ago. so that is making the road really clear for doing this without anyone knowing. so that you will have all sorts of foreign money pouring in. people will make a fortune here doing that kind of work without having to disclose it. and with with the threat of criminal sanction

being taken away, simply, they're supposed to do it. but but the civil sanction is clearly not going to be enough. the other is the fcpa foreign corrupt practices act. just to give some context and to be nerdy, donald trump, before he became president the first time, had reportedly hated the statute, wanted to get rid of it. secretary of state rex tillerson, former head of exxon, reports. he had to sort of talk donald trump down because donald trump came to him and said, can you get rid of this statute? and he was like, it's a congressional statute. no. and also we want it. he was like, i understand as somebody who used to work for exxon as the head of it, we do not want to have make it so that all of the world, everybody can just bribe. and the person who gets the business is not the best company. it's the person with the highest bribe. pam bondi, in this memo that she has not highlighted, said, we're only going to be

looking at the fcpa as it relates to drug cartels. >> why? why would you do that? >> so your boss has criticized the fcpa. he has tried to get rid of it. an asterisk. tillerson to get rid of it. this is de facto accomplishing that, which is that you know what? it's all transactional. there's no there's no law. this is law of the jungle. >> gets a kickback and the company gets. >> it's all about you just pay money. and so if you are an american company now, you are sitting there going, okay, there's now not going to be criminal enforcement of this. and suddenly, am i now supposed to be competitive like the my adversaries who are like, who are bribing? i can't go to the department of justice and say, stop this. i want to be on an even playing field. so now what are they supposed to bribe? like, this is this is how sort of, you know, russia works. this is how tons of sort of third world country works which do not have a rule of law, where the

point is you just bribe whoever you need to get the business. i mean, that is how. >> the business community not recoil at that. they're going to have to add pieces to their budget for paying bribes. >> yeah. i mean, that's i mean, this is this is the kind of thing that this particular component is going to be sending shockwaves through companies as to how are they supposed to deal with this? because for so long, through republican and democratic administrations, they have been beating the drum of, you have to comply with this statute, and there's the threat of criminal prosecution if you don't. and applying it to overseas actors. so that everyone is on the same playing field. this is basically saying, you know what? it's a it's a law of the jungle. >> well, i don't see how that ties to the price of eggs. >> yeah. yeah. well, and that's one of the concerning things is that the folks in this administration said one thing on the campaign trail and now seem to be doing something vastly different now that they're in office. you know, now, president

trump campaigned on capping credit card fees. well, there's actually now a bipartisan bill in the senate to do exactly that. thus far, at least, this administration has refused to say whether or not it would support it. obviously, this administration on th campaign trail talked about the dangers of big tech. well, you saw the photo op on inauguration day, the leaders of the tech industry standing just feet away from the president. so i think, you know, one of the things that i think is going to be really concerning and is going to be an important storyline over the next few years, is the extent to which trump's own supporters are going to be hurt by the self-dealing and potential corruption of folks in this administration. >> it's amazing. andrew weissman, brendan, thank you so much for spending the hour with us. up next for us, the man who has said he wants every federal employee to fear going to work to feel trauma personnel, has a very prominent role inside the trump administration. what's

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medical provider at rocus sparks. >> the show. >> began and. >> continues being. >> the place to have. >> the hard conversations. >> we want the bureaucrats to be. traumatically affected. >> we want when they wake up in the morning, we want them. >> to not want to. >> go to. >> work because they are. they are increasingly viewed as the villains. we want their funding to be shut down so that the epa can't do all of the rules against our energy. industry because they have no. bandwidth financially to do so. we want to put them in trauma. >> america. meet your new head

of omb. hi again everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. as of last night, when that man was confirmed in the senate on a party line vote, russell vote is now the director of the office of management and budget, or omb. described by some democrats as trump's, quote, most dangerous nominee. vote now has the power to, in his words, do what he said there to dramatically affect federal workers, end quote. notably, the vote is more than just trump's numbers guy budget guy. he was the chief architect of project 2025, and he describes the role he now holds as quote, though some mistakenly regarded as a mere paper pushing exercise, the president's budget is in fact a powerful mechanism for setting and enforcing public policy at federal agencies. he's on the campaign trail. trump publicly dissed project 2025 and distanced himself from its radical and unpopular agenda, but helped create that radical and unpopular agenda. but now that trump is president, we're seeing parts of it already be

rolled out in some cases, even go beyond what was in black and white in that 900 page playbook. things like attacking and dismantling dea programs, going after the funding for usaid, revoking security clearances of officials from his first term who he feels wronged, him, withdrawing from world alliances like the paris climate agreement and world health organization, preparing efforts to eliminate the department of education, a mass deportation of undocumented immigrants. we are sure to see much more, especially with vote now confirmed at omb. in another example of the new president becoming more extreme even than the unpopular and extreme project 2025, we take a look at the development over at the fec. that's the federal election commission. it's chapter and project 2025 actually acknowledge that the commission is an independent agency over

which the president's authority is limited. that didn't stop donald trump, who last night took things a step further. ellen weintraub is currently one of the six fec commissioners, and although her term ended in 2007, she's been legally allowed to keep serving until a president appoints her replacement, which numerous presidents have not done. instead of just nominating a replacement, who would then have to be confirmed by the senate. last night, trump sent weintraub a letter. it says this, quote, you are hereby removed as a member of the federal election commission, effective immediately. thank you for your service on the commission, weintraub wrote back, quote, there is a legal way to replace fec commissioners. this is not it. that's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. propublica investigative reporter andy kroll is here with me at the table for the hour, chief political columnist and host of the impolitic podcast

for msnbc. national affairs analyst john heilemann is here. also joining us, democratic strategist, professor at columbia university, msnbc political analyst basil smikle is here. let's deal with the russ vote of it all. john heilemann, let me show you some of his questioning from from democratic senator tim kaine. >> now, i pay. >> attention to the way people say. >> things, because there's. >> a million ways. >> you. >> can make. >> a point. >> and the way. >> you choose to. >> make a point tells you something about the person. you don't want federal air. >> traffic controllers going to the airport, traumatized. >> do you? mr. >> vote no, senator. >> you don't want. >> the people inspecting our food. >> our medicine. >> our infant. >> formula as federal. you don't want them to. >> go to work traumatized. >> do you know. >> senator. >> you don't. >> want the people. >> interdicting drugs at the border. you don't want them. >> going to work. >> traumatized. >> do you? >> no, sir. and you. >> don't want. >> people who are.

>> working for you. >> at the omb. >> who many. >> people would think. >> well, they're in the white house. >> they must be. you don't want them traumatized? >> no. senator. >> thank you. >> for. >> expanding on that. >> yeah. >> i mean, so. well, i. >> felt like. >> i had to because i got 140,000. >> people, and most of them. >> have families, and they're trying to. >> do a good job. >> was your comment. >> about people. >> being traumatized. >> just focused. >> on the federal. >> workforce, or was it more. >> broadly about. >> state employees. >> and local. >> government employees? to senator, it. >> was about the. weaponized bureaucracy. >> that unfortunately. >> we get to weaponize in a minute. but you were talking about the. federal workforce. >> i was. >> talking about the bureaucracy. that i experienced. and that have. >> at the. >> at. >> the federal. >> level, at. >> the federal level. >> what do you think of our new omb director? >> well. >> there's nothing about that. >> that particular. >> clip that tells us anything. >> we didn't already know, which is he's smug and he knew. he was going to get confirmed. >> and he got confirmed. >> you know. >> i think. that the statement there's one unexceptionable statement that. we've shown so.

>> far today. >> about rustbelt that would apply to. every administration that has ever existed. >> which is. >> the budget document, is a statement. of the administration's policy, and it is a method of enforcing that policy across the agencies. >> that was true in in. >> the administration. >> you served. >> in the clinton administration, in the eisenhower administration, the budget document. >> is. >> you know, we omb is a. >> for a lot. of people. >> a boring just their. >> eyes. glaze over. >> when they hear just the acronym. right. but in. terms of domestic policy, it's a powerful agency in the government because it is involved in in how the how the, the, the administration, the presidential administration spends the money that the congress gives it to spend and the implementation. >> of that. >> spending, what it actually looks like, not just the raw number. >> of dollars. >> that go. >> out, but. >> how what the conditions are for the spending, what the regulations are that attend, that spending, all of that. that is the stuff of governance, right. so he has a deep understanding going into this

job, which makes him, to your point, earlier, nicole makes. >> him. >> in addition to the views that he has. >> which are. >> perfectly aligned with the views that we talked about the last time i was on, and he is elon musk, steve bannon and russ vought, the three of them. on the questions of deconstructing the administrative state, another way of saying tear the government down to the studs. they are in perfect alignment. and the fact that he actually understands the budgeting system and the power of it, that makes him uniquely dangerous in the in the trump administration. >> but then why break usaid before mr. vogue gets there? >> well, i think that there's a look. i can't speak to the how they think about sequencing, but usaid is a is not a popular thing for foreign aid. we know foreign aid is not popular. it's never been popular. it's always the thing that you have to make a defense of in america. if you look at the list of things that the government spends money on foreign aid in, you know, time,

you know, decade after decade, administration after administration is a thing that needs defense. it needs to be argued for. and we have seen in the past principle of republican and democratic administrations argue for it and maintain the levels at different levels, but reasonable levels of foreign aid throughout our our lifetime. but it's not intrinsically popular because of many people in america feel like, hey, that money should be spent here at home. and so it's easy pickings. and to me, the, the usaid and it's why the education department is next. right. another another department that does not have federal bureaucrats messing around in state education, which is largely a state and local issue. it's never been super politically popular. elon musk and his team, and i have got to say, jon favreau at positive america is not calling them elon musk and his and the bags, which i think is so is such a brilliant coinage that i'm going to use it all the time now. they're they're looking for they're looking for small,

easily small test cases of how to do what they want to do on a larger scale, where they can sort of see they can test it out, get some, get some of those muscles working of how you do this and you pick on things that have that are, that are traditionally not politically that popular. and they're relatively small to sort of see, you know, how you do it. >> i it still doesn't compute for me because once you make a budget and with the congress totally abdicating any, any role that they're permitted to carry out, whatever's in the budget would have become policy. i mean, there is some political capital being wasted and the destruction of agencies. >> sure. >> but does he care. >> about that? at the end of. >> the day, his political capital is what he wants to do, and making sure that everybody else falls in line. it's not ground up. it's him pushing down on on the system i love. i'm glad what you said, what you said about omb, because anyone that's worked in or around government knows that omb is not the sort of fashionable position that some people will go for, right? they'll go for

commissioner or secretary, whatever. but if you've been in and around government, you know how incredibly valuable that seat is because you have a vast knowledge of money and the budget that no one else, even the, the, the executives themselves, will never, will not and never have. so in some ways, for what trump is trying to accomplish, it is the perfect position for someone like that. because the budget is a political document. it's not not necessarily partizan, but it's political in the sense that it it highlights your values. you can see the administration's values in those numbers and where that money is going. so for someone who is so ideological as he is and has such intent to rip everything down, it's it, it is it's a very scary moment because what he's doing, to john's point, he's tearing all of these departments down. the department of education is in single digits in terms of the entire federal budget. but the impact could be really significant and symbolic. so when you're tearing all of that down, all you're doing is accreting more power to the

executive. and that that is the whole point. more and more goes through the president, less through the agencies. >> the reason we know about this plan to put them in trauma, i believe andy cole is from your reporting. tell us more about mr. vote. >> the reporting. >> draws on these. >> two videos. >> of speeches. >> that roosevelt gave, 1 in 2023, 1 in 2024, where he was addressing his closest allies, a room full of. >> friends. >> donors, fellow. >> travelers in this. >> america first maga movement. and so it gave us this. >> really unvarnished. >> view of what roosevelt not only believes in. >> an ideological. >> level. >> which, again, is what the folks here have been saying. and i would also sprinkle in this christian nationalist vision as well, or ethos as well, that. roosevelt brings to. >> a lot of what he does. >> but it also gave. >> us. >> a whole. >> bunch of detail. >> about not only how he wants to traumatize federal workers,

but that he wants to implement this schedule f policy. we can talk more about that at some point. he wants to find more authority to mobilize the military on american soil. he wants to shut down the epa. it's really this extreme vision for executive power. and to use that executive power in any way that the president deems necessary, and it's just not the kinds of things that you see at a senate confirmation hearing, by any means. but even in friendly public forums where russ vought appeared. so, you know, we're glad that we got this out. in some. >> ways, we. >> wish that it hadn't been as prescient as it is, but it's certainly a roadmap to understanding who this guy is and this incredibly powerful role. >> let me just play because i think it's important. i mean, rob portman was a republican, a normal republican, and he was george w bush's head of omb. josh bolten was a brilliant is a brilliant sort of policy person. he was the head of omb. mr. vote

is a is a is radical in his views and let me just play this this is who he thinks won in 2020. >> he is donald. >> trump's most. >> dangerous nominee. vote has shown complete disregard for democratic institutions. >> vote has. said we live in a quote post-constitutional time. >> that's what he believes we're in. >> do my colleagues agree with that? >> they hope that. >> we. will give. >> up, curl. in a. >> little ball and. >> let. >> them do whatever they. want to do? >> i get. >> it, it is tough right. >> now. >> but it is important that we get back up in fight. and that is exactly what i am doing. >> and andy, this is a written question to mr. vote. quote, did joe biden win the 2020 presidential election? answer i believe the 2020 election was rigged. this is not someone

who's radical policy views are rooted in fact. and i wonder where you might anticipate some friction with donald trump, who has never i mean, russ votes agenda is deeply unpopular with almost every pocket of trump's winning coalition. where do you predict some of the friction with trump's political ego coming into play? >> i think. >> we've. >> seen one example of this already, which was the government wide funding freeze that omb briefly put in place that would follow. that was a pretty major backlash when states, red and blue. >> states realized. >> that essential money for health care, other services, anything coming out of the government was frozen in this chaotic way. this idea that the executive can freeze or impound to use the legal term money that congress has appropriated and

hold it back because the president says so, is a real big priority for russ vote. he thinks that this is something that. the omb and the president should be able to do. in the one time they tried it, you know, in the three weeks the guy's been in office, it proved really unpopular. obviously, it's been blocked in court. the administration itself kind of walked it back a day later, but now they've said other things. so i think that's another example. deploying the american military on u.s. soil, i think is another clear example of that. and then i think the schedule. f policy is really unpopular when it's been put in polls to the american public. this is something roosevelt tried in late 2020, during the sort of chaotic final months of the trump 1.0 administration. by all indications, they're looking to do it again. it would be essentially a return to the spoils and patronage system of more than 100 years ago, that to also just does not jive well with the american public. and if they turn on this kind of policy

in the way that they did say on the budget freeze or on other more extreme attempts to change how the government works, you could see donald trump sour on that kind of thing as well. >> donald trump still appears sensitive to negative press coverage. i mean, to andy's point, this is something happening in west virginia. quote, in west virginia, a nonprofit mental health program for teenage girls is turning to a private donor to cover its expenses. three virginia health clinics have shut their doors. a network of health centers in rural mississippi is facing a deficit of $500,000 and may scale back services across the country. health clinics and nonprofit organizations, largely serving rural and low income patients, have found themselves unable to access previously allocated federal funds. as a short lived government funding freeze has continued to disrupt daily operations for a range of programs. it takes a minute for the damage that they that they did and sort of bull in a china shop way to impact real people.

but the real people will not fall neatly along partizan lines. >> right. >> and i. >> think. >> you know, look, i mean. >> the. >> the. >> the. >> vast majority of, you know, when you. >> think about. >> the, the federal employees who got offered. this cockamamie, probably illegal buyout offer, right? i mean, you know, the va is full of doctors doing health. care for military veterans, doctors who could be making a lot more money in the private sector if they take the buyout, like, who replaces them trying to lure high quality physicians into the government to take pay cuts? you know, we're really lucky we have those doctors doing the work they're doing because they're public servants. they're public spirited. if you lose them, how long does it take to replace them? and who now is providing the health care services? you know, a lot of these. the health care is a health care. the employee the size, the rank of if you take out the federal employees, the health care provider, health care people, health care workers is the, i

think, the highest proportion of plurality of that of that group. a lot of these people are not bureaucrats in the world in the way that they are characterized. the kind of people that russ boat wants to traumatize. paper pushers, promoters of the woke agenda, pursuing die, whatever those things are that they want to say. and so i think that is the place where, where rubber kind of will start to kind of meet road. and it's not just the trump is i think you know, he we say he's a very he's sensitive to public opinion, sensitive to bad headlines. i think he is aware of his relative political weakness. he is a 40 not a 4,647% approval rating right now, very low relative to other presidents at the beginning of their second terms. he has a very razor thin legislative majority. there's a reason why they're doing all these executive actions, because they know they can't get big things passed in congress. trump is an idiot, but he's not an idiot. and so part of the things about the sensitivity on, for example, the freeze, which was not

something that russ vote was in, was running omb when it happened. and that's not to excuse russ vote, but to say i think that was a mistake, like literally a mistake. and i think probably as in to your point about they're doing so much so fast that they're doing some things that are dumb that they think they wish they could have a do over on, and that a guy like russ vote would probably go about that in a more in a more strategically shrewd way, so as not to create the kind of backlash that, that, that that ended up in, in trump's lap. but if you start hacking away into some of these services, the backlash was going to come anyway. and that's where, you know, where trump will start to have to trim sails if he wants to maintain any degree of political. i mean, his relatively low approval rating. now, you just want to see donald trump at 36 is not a pretty picture for donald trump. >> i remember. >> you. >> i do, i. >> do that was like, right. >> i just think i mean, the idea that there's a politically shrewd way to be sadistic, i mean, it is sadism to want to,

quote, traumatize the political world. >> i don't mean to suggest that there's a all i mean is i think they, you know, if we the actual reporting on how it happened is a couple is relatively. >> button might have been pressed. >> yes. relatively junior people who were doing something they didn't like. it's a sign of their incompetence that that it got done in this way without any kind of, you know, public messaging or arguing. they just kind of did this thing in the dead of night. but when i say politically shrewd, i mean more thought through, not less sadistic, but more thought through how they're going to make up stories about how to how to position it. >> we'll let the historians writing on this time decide which which group did more damage. right? the numskulls or the or the well planned. >> that's always the question. >> the trump. i have to sneak in a break. we'll come back right on you on the other side. still on the story also ahead for us in the wake of devastating wildfires in los angeles, one of the costliest natural disasters in america's history, a federal hire hiring freeze could hamper efforts to fight the next big one. and later in the broadcast, the trump administration takes aim at so-called sanctuary city policies, one of the biggest legal roadblocks to their plans

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and learn how xfinity rewards members can get a food delivery gift card when they add streamsaver. bring on the good stuff. pills. connect with a medical provider at roko sparks. >> the first 100. >> days, it's a. >> critical time. >> for our country. and rachel maddow is. >> on five. >> nights a week. >> now is the time, so we're. >> going to do it. >> settle in. >> the rachel maddow. >> show weeknights at 9:00. on msnbc. >> what we do. >> is try. >> to cut right to the bone of what. >> we're seeing in washington that day. >> holman's still talking, basil. your turn. >> yeah. >> no, just in talking about the number and raising the issues about with respect to the nonprofits, there are a lot of them that are currently feeling the pain because a lot of funders have pulled back, you know, so there there's a real question about how to move forward. i'm involved in an organization that during that freeze, we're thinking they may lose $6 million and they provide healthy foods to kids around the

country. so when you think about the not just the actual effect of the freeze, but the chilling effect that happens afterwards, it really does signal that we're in a very different time, that not donald trump doesn't have to just do something, he just has to kind of elevate an issue, and people start to get really scared and concerned. and that's why, you know, even with respect to the department of education, eliminating that is one thing. but the title one funds and the head start funds, they go to real people and largely red states and poor communities. >> they go to kids who can't read. they go to kids who are dyslexic. they go to kids with special needs. they pay for independent learning programs. for every kid in this country who has a special need. >> and by the way, in largely red states. and what happens when that money goes? does that mean that those governors and those mayors are going to raise taxes just to get back to a level that they were at before? how popular is that going to be? >> andy, john and i ever have in my fault picked, i picked a dumb fight with john heilemann about

whether mr. bo was more sadistic or more smart, or whichever. >> we've come to an agreement. >> we've come to an agreement that he's both. i want to, though, ask you to sort of fact check me on this. i mean, just because project 2025 was printed with a foreword doesn't mean it was all well thought out, workable policy. talk about sort of the mythology around this and how it attached so completely to the trump white house. >> yeah, i think there's a mythology. >> around it. that's worth picking apart. but then i do think there are some actual elements of it that are smart, that are savvy and sophisticated on their part. project 2025. the blueprint, called the mandate for leadership, is something that the heritage foundation and some allies have been doing for decades. sometimes republican presidents take some cues from the mandate for leadership. sometimes they ignore it altogether. i think what made

this particular period so striking, and why project 2025 really caught on this time. i mean, one was the effort to promote it so early on by the heritage foundation, its leader, kevin roberts, people like russ vought, but also because of the as those of us who were there and covered it can easily remember the early days of the first trump presidency were just so chaotic, were so marred by confusion and simple mistakes, and trying to do basic blocking and tackling of governing, certainly out of the executive branch project 20 2025. excuse me, this time around, you know, was that blueprint, you know, as we reported at propublica, there was also this huge behind the scenes training, vetting personnel project that this group of organizations put together. and when we watched those videos, we publish them all online. we published the story. i think i might have even talked about them on this show. and as i think about it, you. >> know, when. >> we watched.

>> those videos, there was a level of sophistication there where you had someone like roger severino, a prominent conservative activist and lawyer, was in the health and human services department as their top lawyer for trump 1.0, giving a very wonky seminar about how to deal with administrative law. i mean, this is stuff that will make your eyes glaze over, but it is the kind of stuff that the trump team the first time around did not do right. and judges quickly threw their stuff out in court. and so in some ways, project 2025 is a corrective from that first trump go around. and i think if you look at some of the things they've done, not all of them, and the whole musk dodge element jumbles things even more. but if you look at some of the steps they've taken, they are more sophisticated than before. they have learned some of the lessons of the trump 1.0 presidency. and i think project 2025 was a part, not the sole reason, but. a part of why they seem to have gotten their act together a little bit more than the last time.

>> i just think i think this is this is the point, you know, he didn't think he was going to win in 2016. they didn't do a transition plan to the extent that chris christie tried to do one. he threw it out. >> in the dumpster. >> they ended up with a government full of with no plan and a bunch of nitwits. and these people are not nitwits and they have a plan. doesn't mean it's going to be politically popular. when we say when i say that, that it's that it's more sophisticated. that's the standard. and that's why they're more dangerous. they're more dangerous because whatever you want to say about them, you could say they're wrong about everything and they're and they're sadistic and they are more they are people who have government experience. there are a lot of people there who have been inside before and who've spent the last four years thinking about if trump gets back in, we're going to have a plan and we're going to have people hired who know how the bureaucracy works and know how administrative law works. and they have lawyers, and they had none of that in 2017. again, it's why it's so much more dangerous. >> they charge themselves to do

it in 180 days. >> right. well, and the thing about what i described as sadistic is mr. vogt's quote that he wants to quote, put them in trauma, something that was so sadistic he didn't stand by it when pressed by tim kaine. i want to ask you just simply, who suffers the most? >> well, i mean, look, i think about those kids who are dyslexic. i think about all of the nonprofits that i work with, that and the students that i work with to try and get into school. like, i think about all of these people who are suffering because what they're doing is, as we talked about, sort of destroying everything and consolidating power. there was a report today that he's trying to take over the kennedy center. so with respect. to trump that he's trying to replace the board of the kennedy center, because and i'm just like, why? it's true, of course. but that's my point. >> oh, it. >> is so i'm thinking because that's the only thing they could be thinking. >> can we black people and too many women at the kennedy honors every year?

>> that's the thing i'm thinking. right. and so my point is, with all of this, they really want control. control of who you are, who you love, what you eat, how you how you act day to day, what you like, what you don't like, what you watch. that there is a there is this intentionality around wanting to control so many aspects of your life. and so that's one of the things where i say, you know, in terms of where, where that resistance is going to come from. and i know that some folks were looking to dc and i'm saying i can't it's not going to come from dc. >> i agree with you. >> it's going to come from the street. and there have been shining stars, no question about it. aoc jasmine crockett has been phenomenal. she's a superstar. but this sort of the response to this is going to come from the street, because it's not just going to be a democratic resistance. >> or a mayor who's now, as you said, out raising money for the kids in his town and his school district or a principal or a governor. i mean, i do think and i think the thing for the democrats is you're not going to beat trump from washington.

you're going to have to beat trump from a school that no longer has special education services or sites for kids with learning disabilities, from a hospital that serves veterans, that now has real data that shows that they're suffering because doctors left. why deal every, every, every time russ vote takes his hand to the budget, they're going to be out of work. >> although i do. we do want to give some credit. i will say one of the most heartening things of this last week has been seeing these bureaucrats who are, you know, on their subreddits, standing up and saying, i was ready to give up. now i'm digging in. they had the they had the new york field office of the fbi is the most visible one who literally said, time to dig in. right. and these people, you know, they're part of. >> their it's all and right. >> part of their goal is scare people and make people go, i just can't i just got to get back. i'm going to walk out. i have a friend who's who's in in who serves in the embassy in rwanda. and when the when those emails came in, imagine what it's like to be thousands of

miles from home when getting an email that says, hey, you have a buyout offer. and then a few days later, your friends at usaid are now fired, right? people are scared out there like, you know, foreign correspondents know what it's like to be thousands of miles away from the from the bureau and from the from home base. and you're and you're, you know, you get these emails, you don't know what's going on. the way that you get rid of these people is civil service protection, is you get people who are good people in the state department who are in the foreign service to basically go, i just can't deal anymore. and instead, what a lot of them are doing is i'm digging in and that's and that's inspiring and important. >> andy kroll, a lot of what we know, we know from your amazing reporting that reporting from you and your colleague, i do remember it was over the summer. i remember sitting and watching all those training videos, and i both curse you and thank you for them. they were prescient and they were important and they're now big news. thank you very much for joining us. john and basil stick around coming up for us. brand new reporting from our friend and colleague jacob soboroff on the trump administration putting a freeze on hiring. wait for it.

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1-800-403-7539. that's one (800) 403-7539. >> when we. >> first. >> arrived on scene, we were. >> faced. >> with walls of flames. >> 50 to. >> 100ft. >> wind gusts in excess. >> of 50 miles an hour. >> i've been. >> fighting fire for 21 years, and this. >> is probably the worst. >> i've ever seen. the wind

gusts on the ember cast and flame impingement on structures. >> like that. >> that was a firefighter with the us forest service, part of a crew of federal firefighters who played a critical role in battling the deadly eaton and palisades wildfires in los angeles just last month, according to reporting from my colleague jacob soboroff, who was on the ground covering the devastation in los angeles, the trump administration has put a freeze on hiring more federal firefighters, like the firefighter you just heard from, from that new reporting, quote, even though donald trump's january 20th executive order says the freeze does not apply to positions related to public safety, federal firefighters are not exempt, according to a person who works in hiring at the bureau of land management. one official telling jacob this, quote, the level of stupidity and negligence here is enraging. what if there's nobody to show up? how many people died with garden hoses in their hands? the people making these decisions,

they are not the ones whose houses are going to burn down. joining our coverage is the aforementioned nbc news correspondent. our friend and colleague jacob soboroff. tell us more. >> it's hard to understand, isn't it, nicole? i mean, the idea that after we just watched those green trucks that you just showed on your screen from the us forest service show up as part of this massive mutual aid effort, along with their colleagues from. >> the bureau of land. >> management and the national park service, in what governor gavin newsom himself told me was going to end up being one of the worst, if not the worst, natural disaster in the history of the united states of america. knowing what we know about how those firefighters played a key role in literally saving specific neighborhoods in the eaton fire, this executive order went out on january 20th. it said it exempted public safety services and officials. but the people on the front lines, the literally the ones doing the hiring engaged in hr are telling me specifically things like they're getting emails saying hold all offers related to fire

positions because of this hiring freeze. and i have been speaking with all of these departments, officials and spokespeople from all these departments. not one of them has said, in the face of this reporting, you're wrong. we are hiring firefighters. this is just a mix up. we're hearing all kinds of different stuff, like, for instance, from the interior department. we are implementing president donald j. trump's executive order across the federal civilian workforce. the forest service says we're working with opm on wildland firefighting positions. but those firefighters, i'll tell you right now, are not being hired. and the issue with this is, as you know, as somebody who worked in the federal government, you got to go through background checks if you're going to be a federal firefighter. these are seasonal workers. they are hired every single year for both temporary and career positions, and it takes a long time to onboard these folks, 15 to 20,000 people on a yearly basis. and so by the time fire season rolls around, i mean, now it's sort of a fire season that happens all year round. but by the time the official fire season rolls

around, they're not going to have according to these people, i'm talking with, the amount of firefighters that they need in order to do the job, not just on wildland firefighters, but on urban firefighters where they come in mutual aid support like la. >> jacob, i want to show you something and just ask you to make sense of it for us. trump has been talking a lot about the water. >> i hope you i'm sure you've seen it. the water comes down from the northwest parts of canada, i guess, and but the pacific northwest and it comes down by millions and millions of barrels a day. and i opened it up. it wasn't that easy to do, but i opened it up and it's pouring down. >> i will not put you in the position of telling me what you think that says, but what is gavin? what is what is how is california dealing with this? how's gavin newsom dealing with whatever trump thinks he's done and whatever he's saying he's going to do? and what's what's canada have to do with it?

>> well, let me ask a i guess, sort of an open ended question. why would california need billions of gallons of water, additional gallons in the middle of the winter? the answer is we don't. according to experts and scientists and people on these farms, where this water ultimately ends up when that water is needed, is during the dry season. and by the way, the water that president trump has said he's releasing or released doesn't come down to los angeles. it wouldn't have affected in any way, shape or form the firefighting effort on the ground here in los angeles during those fires he's talking about from the san joaquin, san francisco bay delta, releasing water to go to the central valley to farmers there. and so just on multiple accounts, it doesn't make any sense. practically. they don't need the water now in the central valley. and we're not getting the water down here in la. so when he says that it's coming down here, the fact of the matter is it's just

not the case. and even if it did, it's not water that they're asking for down here or the local officials say that we need. >> i don't think jacob understands gravity the right way, because the truth is that, like water flows downhill and canada is above california on the map. so it's clearly above. so the water is just it's there's nothing you can do about it, jacob. it's how it goes. the water flows from up to down. and so the water. >> if you. >> want. >> to know, john. >> heilemann is. >> a i know john heilemann is a movie buff, and i'm sure he has seen chinatown, like so many of our viewers, if you want to understand water in los angeles, go watch chinatown. if you want to understand water in los angeles, go to the sierra nevadas, where los angeles for many years. some people like it. some people don't. has been bringing water from the northern sierras down to la from the la aqueduct. they have been bringing water to los angeles, through the colorado river,

through the metropolitan water district. i've done stories on these, on our own network and seen the way that water comes to l.a. there are lots of conversations about how that more water in los angeles, including recycling wastewater, including desalination, but opening the tap, so to speak, to put water into the central valley, i promise you, is not one of them. >> jacob, we have you today on this reporting, but we also want to end the week really sharing with our audience what has happened on the immigration front. so we're going to sneak in a break. everyone sticks around. on her first day on the job, attorney general pam bondi took aim at the city of chicago and its policies protecting undocumented immigrants. we'll undocumented immigrants. we'll have that socks, underwear and t-shirts are the most requested items in homeless shelters. bombas was founded to help. so one purchased equals one donated, with 140 million donations and counting. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. where does the time go?

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pre-portioned packs makes it really easy to keep him lean and healthy. and look at him now. he's like a show dog. [silence] bogue, can you give daddy a break here? he's having a hard enough time. cooperation with federal agencies, efforts to deport undocumented immigrants. yesterday, the trump administration filed suit in federal court in chicago, claiming that sanctuary laws in that city and in illinois have impeded the mass deportations. one of these laws, the trust illinois act, was signed into law by a republican governor in 2017, and it prevents local law enforcement from holding immigrant prisoners without a warrant. even with chicago's status as a sanctuary city. ice raids have shaken vulnerable communities the way they live

and the way they experience normal life to their core. workplaces and schools are reporting mass absences, with people too afraid to show up for work or to drop their kids off to school, one advocate telling the guardian the prospect of trump raids are terrifying kids, regardless of their immigration status. quote, amid immigration raids, now teachers also have to grapple with their students difficult questions and fears about deportations. children don't see immigration status. children see friends. what happens if students see their classmates plucked out of a classroom? so how do you explain these things to them? we're back with jacob, john and basil. jacob, what's been going on this week? >> i think about sanctuary cities i think is important for everybody to understand is the reason that these local jurisdictions commit to these so-called sanctuary policies is because, according to local law enforcement, if you talk to the

police chief here in la, for instance, they will tell you that they make the city safer, not more dangerous. this is a city, los angeles, that is a quote unquote majority minority. i don't love that term. but but the latinos are the demographic majority in the city of los angeles. there are a fair number of undocumented folks who live here, who go to the schools here, who work in workplaces here. and when just your immigration status would become or if it would become a crime in the eyes of local law enforcement, not only are, as you just reported, their children afraid to go to school, people afraid to go to work. but but people in those communities are less likely to report crimes, violent crimes, predatory crimes, you name it. and so when the federal government says that this is an obstruction of federal immigration laws, there's this very specific reason why local jails are not also immigration detention centers, because it affects everything about the city and the community to detain

people just for their status, which is not which is not a crime. it's a it's a it's a civil offense. it is not a criminal offense to be in the united states as an undocumented person. and so that's why cities all across the country for many years have committed to these sanctuary policies, and why the law enforcement will tell you that they make it safer, not more dangerous. >> but, you know, and there are there are some immigration attorneys and activists that say it's a lot of bluster from the trump administration. a lot of this stuff is not going to go particularly far in court. but the reality is, if you're a person that's affected by their family, this is going to scare the hell out of you forever and forever. and it's going to it's going to damage their families, their communities, certainly the economy down the road. and, you know, i just i just think about the fact that and i hope my father doesn't be mad at me for saying this. when he came to this country in 1970, he was supported by catholic charities. he still remembers the nuns name 55 years later, an organization that jd vance went after. right.

because they were supporting immigrants. this is something that we do in our country because we understand the value of and the support of immigrants to our country, and to see that there are there are kids that have to stay home from school because they're afraid of what's going to happen. and i'm glad that the that the mayors are really taking a stand and that the lawyers nationally are coming together to try to inform people of their rights. and again, this is part of that groundswell of support that can come from the grassroots to try to push this back. >> jacob soboroff, thank you for your reporting and for joining us today. it's great to see you. john heilemann, thank you for being here. >> by the way, one other thing about trump in the water. yeah, he talks about it in terms of barrels. >> of water. >> barrels. >> oil. >> barrels like like oil. >> or wine. interesting thing about wine. >> nobody really talks about water. and that's not the way you talk about water. you talk about petroleum that way. >> yeah, i like that you're on the grammar police. >> oh. >> i. >> like to monitor the language.

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from her so many careers at this network and across all of journalism, have been shaped by andrea mitchell. and that's especially true for women here. we just want to play for you a little bit of her grand goodbye. >> to all of you from nbc and msnbc here. that does it for this final edition of andrea mitchell reports. you can find me online at mitchell report. and tonight on nightly news and sunday on meet the press. >> she worked seven days a week, as she said she'll be on nightly tonight and every night. from us to you, andrea, congratulations. thanks to you for 17 years in that chair, so much of it spent paving the way for the rest of paving the way for the rest of us. another break for us. struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1? ask about vraylar. because you are greater than your bipolar 1 and you can help take control of your symptoms,

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