that's how you'll be able to get the podcast. i've never actually done that myself, but that's what they tell me. you can also find velshi content on youtube. you can head to msnbc, .com, slash, ali and this blue sky thing i was telling you about. i think we're going to we're going to put another bar code on the screen. if you scan that, it'll take you right to my blue sky page. and you can find me on on blue sky again. all you have to do is scan the barcode with your phone. it takes you right there. you can follow me on threads, you can follow me on linkedin and mastodon. i post there daily. stay right where you are. the katie phang show begins right now. >> this is. >> the katie phang. >> show live from msnbc. world headquarters. in new york city. >> democracy in disarray. convicted felon donald. >> trump's unrelenting flurry of. >> executive actions are creating. >> chaos and. >> confusion as. >> democrats struggle to unite behind a coherent message. >> plus. >> holding the line, federal. >> judges are halting trump's.

>> relentless push. >> to remake the federal government. >> with the latest round of judicial resistance. means for the limits of his presidential power. then government run amuck. >> how the. >> world's richest man is using a legion of young tech bros. >> to hack away. >> at the. >> federal government. and later written in the waters. >> celebrating black heritage month with a deep dive into a new memoir from national geographic explorer. >> tara roberts. >> and her. search for shipwrecks of the transatlantic slave trade. all of that and more is. >> coming up. >> america is under. >> attack. >> and some federal. >> judges are. >> fighting back against convicted felon. donald trump's. >> executive orders and unprecedented actions taken by his first buddy, elon musk. >> this morning. >> musk's doge team was temporarily blocked from accessing treasury department

data, including the social security and bank account numbers for. >> millions of americans. >> two federal judges have blocked trump's executive order on birthright citizenship, and last night, the effort to place thousands. >> of staffers. >> from the usaid put them on leave that was temporarily blocked. although trump's already trying to literally erase it by removing the agency signage from its d.c. headquarters one letter at a time. meanwhile, a different federal judge is letting musk's team maintain access to the labor department, including sensitive information that could include americans medical and financial records. folks, it's only been 19 days. 19 days of trump 2.0. and considering the pace at which trump and musk have been making headlines, democratic voices are being challenged by all the chaos. >> we are here today as elected. members of congress. we're here.

>> today because. >> an unelected. >> billionaire and. >> his. >> team have been given. >> full and unfettered access to our taxpayer money and our government. they campaigned across the entire country telling people they were going to fight for working people, but they lied. they want to use the government to further enrich these corrupt billionaires and corporations. >> and what is the president doing today? while millions of americans worry about their future, he's golfing, of course. joining me now is florida congressman maxwell frost. congressman, listen, you've been protesting all week. i've seen you. i've seen this on your social media, including the following. take a quick look. >> what do we need? >> i mean, maxwell, i could spend a long time telling you what we need. my question for you. what can you do? >> yeah, well, i appreciate you having me on. i mean, obviously,

everybody knows we're in the minority, but, you know, we have to make this decision. do we want to act like we're in the minority or do we want to act like the opposition? and the fact of the matter is, of course, our institutional levers that we can pull to stop these things are limited. but the things we can do, we should do them, even if ultimately it doesn't stop something we should work to delay, to obstruct, to try to stop the things that are going to negatively impact our constituents. we can show up to these federal buildings and make sure that people across the country know exactly what's going on, and the fact that a lot of their federal elected officials have been shut out from the process. and it's not even just democrats. it's republicans, too, in congress that have no idea what's going on. they're just not saying anything because they bow to elon musk, they bow to donald trump. so it's litigation, working with the outside groups. it's protests and mobilization, making sure that we're protesting, doing direct action. we need people to be on the phones calling republican members of congress to tell them to grow a spine and do

something. there's a bill that hakeem jeffries is introducing that would help stop a lot of what elon musk is doing. if every democrat gets behind it, it means we only need three three republicans to get behind it, too. so calling those republicans and those frontline districts are going to be really important. and then us on the inside, we need to work at using the parliamentary procedure and the different procedures that we can in committee to stop, delay and obstruct the worst parts of donald trump's agenda. we saw an example of this the other day and the oversight committee. our ranking member, gerry connolly, called for a vote to subpoena. musk caught the republicans off guard. we almost won that vote, even though we're outnumbered on the committee. so we got to keep doing things like that and hold their feet to the fire. >> yeah. so, maxwell, listen, i, i'm accused often of being too optimistic and being too kind of sunny about things, but even i am kind of frustrated with the fact that this boils down to just a numbers game. sometimes, at the end of the day, we're trying to get a certain number

of republicans not to sign on to a lot of this. so it sounds to me that you're saying that some of the traditional ways that people's voices have been heard over time protesting, getting out, calling your congressmen, calling your senators, that's the route that people should be taking. because it sounds to me also, we may be delaying things from happening, but it sounds like they're happening nonetheless. >> protest is really important. it's one of multiple things people should do. obviously, we want to make sure we take back the house in two years, but we can't wait two years and just not do anything. and so of course, we need people involved in the elections making sure that we beat these republicans. we take these gavels. but in the interim protests, direct action is something they can do. calling these members is something they can do. and look, we've had some wins because the public spoke out. look at the opm memo. if no one spoke out, if no one raised hell on the fact that the entire federal government had a big freeze, they wouldn't have rescinded that opm memo. right? look at

the tariffs. donald trump went back on the tariffs for canada and mexico, and he didn't get anything from those countries. they literally told him, i'm going to do something i was already going to do. and he backtracked. why? because the public sentiment was, this is going to raise prices and it was going to raise prices. and so he took a step back. if we go back to the first trump administration after the shooting that happened in las vegas, guess what? people rose up. they protested. and donald trump implemented a bump stock ban on guns. that was a big deal when it happened. so we have to realize that even though everything is crazy, this is part of the plan. steve bannon's famous quote is flood the zone. and when they flood the zone, their hope is that we'll do what a lot of people are doing right now, which is say it's chaos. there's nothing we can do. we might as well just let them run the whole damn country for four years. we can't allow that to happen. history has shown with this president, too, that if we speak up, sometimes we'll be

successful, sometimes we won't be, and we'll delay and we'll fight and we'll obstruct those things. but we can't do nothing now. >> and i'm not i'm not advocating for people to sit down. in fact, i'm telling them to do the exact opposite. but when i see something like i just saw which millions of people saw, which is you're a congressman, you are a congressman, and you and others like jasmine, crockett, etc, you can't even enter a federal building. you so it's hard for, i think, a lot of americans to watch this happen, maxwell, and just sit back and say to themselves, how am i going to be effective? how many times can i call, you know, people in dc like how how do people not lose hope? especially when i feel like the democrats struggle a little bit right now? let's be honest with having a cohesive message. i think for americans. >> yeah, i completely understand that. and that's why i said it's not just calling, it's calling. it's protesting. right. it's also working locally to make sure you're doing what you can

do to protect immigrants. i just got back from a meeting with most of the haitian pastors in my community talking about ice, talking about deportations. right. and so it's important that people, number one, look locally and focus on how you're going to help protect the most vulnerable people in your community. homeless services, organization, etc. number two, of course, think nationally. making the calls is important, but it's not the only tool you have. you can protest. you can ensure that you're educating people. don't assume that all the people in your life understand what's going on right now, because honestly, a lot of people don't understand what's going on. not everyone consume news, consumes news as a hobby, and so it's up to all of us to educate the people in our lives, whether it's at work, school or church, as to what's going on and how this billionaire takeover is going on as well. so there are tools that we can take. i'm not going to sit here and lie to people and say, well, we're going to be able to stop

everything. these actions have consequences. and we're at this point right now where this president has given this unfettered access to an unelected billionaire. and so but of course, we can't just take a step back and say there's nothing we can do. so protest, calling members of congress, doing what we can on the inside, the litigation. i mean, look, one of the biggest deals to me was the fact that elon musk had access to social security numbers and other private information that has been halted because of litigation. and thank you to the on that. so there's no room to make sure that we hold things on track here. it's going to be hard. but what i tell people sometimes hope is a feeling and sometimes the choice. i haven't really been waking up feeling hope every morning when i wake up in the morning, but i'm actively choosing it in this moment and i hope others will do the same. >> hope is a choice. congressman maxwell frost, we're going to choose. we're going to choose that hope. thank you for being here and thanks for the transparency i appreciate it. and joining me now is alysia johnson, founder and chief

impact officer at 1063 west broad, former senior adviser to president joe biden. she's also an msnbc political strategist. i mean, valencia, i had to push back a little bit, right, with congressman maxwell frost, because i think you see stuff like russell vote, one of the architects of project 2025, now confirmed to leave the office of management and budget. we see people like maxwell frost not even being able to enter into federal departments. do you think people understand how bad things really are for the country right now? >> well, listen, i actually don't think that people understand how bad it is because they don't realize. the power or a little bit of. power that democrats have, right? and i have been critical of. >> the what seems to be. >> lack of plan from some of our democratic leadership. but as. >> the congressman said. >> there's only so much that they can do. and the reality is some of these things, unfortunately, we're not going to be able to stop. and so i do think the strategy here has. >> to be. >> continuing to educate people

that their election choices actually have consequences. who they vote for. it's more than the president. it ends up becoming. these egregious people who are taking over our federal government and these unelected officials that are just donald trump's buddies to, you know, carry out the mission of dismantling the very foundation and fabric of our government, of our government that actually takes care of people. and so it's unfortunate. >> that this rude awakening. >> is coming, is coming. but i do hope that it is something that allows for people. >> to get. politically engaged. >> later on in elections. >> well, then let's talk about consequences, right? we saw on thursday during his press conference with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu, donald trump said israel is going to give the gaza strip to the united states and that the united states would rebuild it. even members of his own party said that this is a bad idea, but i'm putting it on your screen right now. an ap heading which says breaking news. president trump says he wants the u.s. to take ownership of the gaza strip and redevelop it

after palestinians are resettled elsewhere. and of course, it's on top of jared kushner, trump's son in law, saying that it'd be great to basically make the gaza the gaza riviera. clearly, jared thinks it's a good idea. i mean, it's pretty craven, don't you think? >> it is so inhumane. and my heart goes out to the palestinian people who have been suffering in gaza since the, since the this war started. but the reality is donald trump actually. >> made these. >> some of. >> these. >> comments about wanting to. actually allow israel to. get rid of gaza before. the election. and i think this is what we're seeing is people are grappling with. >> what he. >> says and what. >> he does. >> it is, i think, hypocritical and ludicrous that there were some people i've been on networks talking about this this week. there were some people talking about how he showed up to dearborn, and he said that he was going to protect muslim americans and palestinian people. but yet he was also telling his buddies that he

found this to be a prime location for real estate development. i'm paraphrasing some of the things that he said, and so it is extremely inhumane, and it actually puts the onus back on people who actually care about these issues and want a two state solution. how are they going to engage in this administration and hold them their feet to the fire and tell them that this is not what we want? and also republicans, how are you going to get the backbone to stand up to this? >> and also we see reporting yesterday from the miami herald footnote support your local journalism that there's been a deal struck between maduro and venezuela to take hundreds of thousands of deportees, venezuelans who supported trump in south florida being upset, saying, we feel like we've been tricked. but, you know, valencia. in exchange, maduro may have criminal indictments dropped. his oil will be able to be made available to big dollars like chevron big dollar companies. i mean, the quid pro quo is so obvious. the pay to play is so obvious. we learned this from the first trump administration and now we're seeing it. but it's so brazen

and in our face. >> it's so brazen in our face. and i love that you made that comparison, because that's also kind of why donald trump wanted to become president so that he could escape charges or escape punishment so that. >> he. >> could line his pockets and his friends pockets with more money. they don't care about the people. it is so inhumane. and he's going to continue to align himself with other leaders of nations that have the same position. i actually, to be honest, katie, i have a hard time with voters who say, well, wait a minute. he said he wouldn't do this, but he showed us and the first administration in his first term that. he would do this. he has set this on the campaign trail. he talks out of both sides of his mouth, and the inhumanity of it all is what breaks my heart. but even there's another piece of this, right? when people talk about voters voting against their own interests in this election, i actually like to challenge that, that there are actually voters who supported donald trump who are actually okay with this inhumane treatment of migrants

in this country, and that is the piece that is going to be hard to root out in our political discourse, because there are so many people who not only are okay with this, but they actually embrace it. >> and that's the scary part. but you know what? i'm sorry, but you're right. this is the find out part for a lot of people right now. valencia johnson, thank you so much for being here. i appreciate you. and now we're going to quickly turn to breaking news out of the middle east, where three israeli hostages were released by hamas today and are currently receiving medical attention. eli sharabi, ohad ben-ami and or levi were all freed as a part of the first 42 day phase of the cease fire agreement between israel and hamas. in exchange, israel released a group of 183 palestinian prisoners from the ofer military prison in the occupied west bank. and still to come on the katie phang show speed bump how the courts are slamming the brakes on trump's ploy to remake the federal government holding the line as one of the last standing checks on trump's broad ambitions for

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reagan appointed judge saying to trump, the rule of law is but an impediment to his policy goal, adding, nevertheless, in this courtroom and under my watch, the rule of law is a bright beacon which i intend to follow. joining me now is mark zaid, national security attorney and the co-founder of whistleblower aid. mark, listen, you do some amazing work, and what you're doing right now is so critical because you posted on social, you've actually spent decades suing agencies like the fbi, but now you're actually representing those agents dealing with what's happening. talk about what's the latest in your litigation with the trump administration? >> sure. >> and i'll. >> say. >> i mean. >> i've represented fbi employees, cia employees. >> this is what i. >> do for 30. >> years, but i'm usually. >> suing those. >> agencies to protect. >> those employees. >> so i actually. >> told the. >> judge in our. >> fbi case. >> just the other day when we. were in. >> court to. block the justice department from. >> illegally releasing. >> their names. >> that the last.

>> time i had. >> appeared before her. was also. >> suing the. >> fbi to. >> force the. >> disclosure of information from the fbi. >> and now. >> here i am. >> trying to. block the disclosure. >> so we were concerned. >> remain concerned. >> that the. >> doj. >> fbi. more from the department of. >> justice and the white. house are going to fire fbi employees who worked on january 6th cases, no matter what qualifications or. >> role they. >> played, and in doing so. >> would release. >> their. >> names alongside. >> of the. >> notice of termination. >> we've already. >> seen them do that. >> you can imagine knowing that the proud boys, the oath keepers. >> and all. >> the stories i'm. >> sure you've. >> covered of january 6th who have threatened the agents and staff who have worked on their. >> cases. >> who have already some have gone back to jail for violent offenses. the risk that that

poses to these dedicated federal employees. so that's why we were in court and successfully negotiated an arrangement with the justice department to or the government, i should say, to ensure no names. >> will. >> be released. without two business days notice. >> mark, i got to ask you, though, you have somebody like attorney general pam bondi who issues a flurry of directives day one of her like holding her job. and these directives make it very clear the doj is now just an extension, an enforcement arm of the oval office. so what type of reassurances do you get at all from a judge? order! listen, you and i are rule of law lawyers, right? so a judge's order is held with respect. if not, it's contempt of court. but you and i both know if it doesn't extend to somebody like elon musk and his tech bros, or if it doesn't extend to other people, how is it going to even be enforceable to protect your clients? >> so you rattled off some of the. >> cases where already litigation has been successful.

and the. >> judiciary has been the. first wall of defense so far in trump 2.0 temporary restraining order after temporary restraining order, which is fantastic to see because that's what we hoped for. i am concerned, i share your concern that at some point along the way, if that continues, the trump administration will simply say, we know that donald trump is a big fan of andrew jackson. well, andrew jackson famously said to the supreme court, yeah, you and what army are going to enforce your decision against me? >> that is. >> the fear. we shall see. i hope it will not materialize. with respect to musk, doge spacex. what they are is still an open question. are they government? are they not government? but the court orders and the negotiated consent agreement that we reached is meant to and as far as we're

concerned, applies to those third parties that are functioning essentially or effectively as government, so that if elon musk or one of his minions releases these names, we will be going after him and the u.s. government through contempt of court proceedings, which, again, we'll see how effective that will be. >> you have an upcoming hearing, right? mark on february 14th in your case. is that correct? >> not in ours. so because we entered the consent order, we are now briefing the preliminary or permanent injunction over the next course of 4 or 5 weeks. we are scheduled to be back in court on that motion, assuming the government doesn't reverse its decision to release any names on march 27th. >> so, mark, i guess my follow up question then quickly, is this who's driving the bus then for this stuff? who's driving the bus for doj when they're coming to court and they're

losing their credibility before these federal judges, where you have reagan appointed judges, calling them out for the representations and the arguments that are being made, is it a pam bondi doj, or is it really just a trump doj? these are trump's personal lawyers that are coming to make these arguments. >> great. well, she obviously just got in. i'm not sure there's a difference between a pam bondi or trump doj or an ed martin in the us attorney's office. who's the acting us attorney? i will say the lawyers who have been on many of the cases so far, including mine, are career, you know, assistant u.s. attorneys inside the civil division. and these are individuals i've litigated against for years, and they represent as careerists whoever is in power. now. i will say i in fact, i put this out on social media today that anyone within the u.s. attorney's office who is willing to come forward as a whistleblower to reveal illegal or unethical

conduct of the acting u.s. attorney. my organization, whistleblower aid, will represent them for free. i mean, there i'm talking emphasized illegal or unethical, right? we're not talking about policy decisions or policy differences, illegal or unethical conduct, because in every administration, democratic or republican, that is what we pursue. and as you said, uphold the rule of law. we are strict rule of law. >> we are. and listen, i still believe in the norms and institutions. i think we should continue to do so. mark, thank you so much for being here. it's good to see you. >> thank you katie. you too. >> still to come government run a musk elon musk ongoing war on washington and the road ahead after a federal judge hit the brakes just this morning on elon musk's unfettered access to the treasury department's most treasury department's most sensitive data. keep it here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein,

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elon. >> musk he cannot touch? >> well, we haven't discussed that much. i'll tell him to go here. go there. he does it. he's got a very capable group of people. very, very, very, very capable. they know what they're doing. >> they know what they're doing. donald trump saying the quiet part out loud on the free rein he has given to elon musk to dismantle our federal government. but one federal judge early this morning pushing back, blocking musk and his, quote, department of government efficiency or doge from accessing sensitive treasury department records. but the move may just end up being a speed bump for the tesla ceo, who, along with his clown car of doge bros, are in the process of accessing or frankly, have already accessed several other government agencies sensitive data, including veteran affairs, the department of transportation, and the epa. musk's moves in government, mirroring actions that he took when he bought twitter and he laid off thousands of people,

got sued for paying less than severance than what they were promised, and he stopped paying the rent. or, as the former head of twitter's policy communications describes, musk's mo, quote, take it over. ruthlessly purge anyone who he sees as opposition and crash operations to remake it in his world view. joining me now is mckenna kelly, politics reporter at wired. mckenna, my hat off to wired. you guys have been the tip of the spear on some incredible breaking news, such necessary coverage. before we came into your segment. and when we were talking, wired didn't even have a politics team before. so talk about why we are now having this collision of an intersection between politics, tech and frankly, all things elon musk. >> sure. >> so i think i was hired in november 2023. so just a little over a year ago to cover the election. and why would you bring a tech journalist from the

verge, right, to cover the election? and it's because there is so much going on with all of these big tech ceos, the influence that they have, the money that they spend on lobbyists, the money that they donate to campaigns. and then last year, what we saw soon after the first assassination attempt on trump was elon musk coming out, you know, full throated this support for trump throwing i think what the number used to be last time i checked was like $250 million supporting trump's campaign. so tech has really come out of the woodwork to say, we have money, we have power. the biden administration, of course, spent what was it, four years? yeah. trying to assumably regulate these companies and nothing really happened. and i think they got a little scared. they found a savior in trump in many ways. and now they're here and all support. >> well, trump, of course, loves hearing that idea that he is some type of, you know, christ figure for them. but i want to talk about some of the reporting you guys did on wired this week, including you about marko elez. so the journal, the wall street

journal was the first to talk about his racist, his eugenic posts on twitter. but then you guys said that he actually got fired, right? or excuse me, he got he resigned because of what he posted, but then he got rehired by elon musk. but i think what's happening is you see this and you have this edward quarantine or quarantine, also known as quote, big balls online. and he worked at a startup that hired convicted hackers and was fired from an internship for leaking company secrets. these are the people, right, mckenna, that elon musk has and they've had access. and i want to say, even though there may be injunctions right now, they've had access to our sensitive data, how would we even know? mckenna if they've changed stuff and they've seen our stuff and they've done things with our sensitive data. >> at this point in time, we have no idea. and i think that's the scariest part of this all. with the access that they have, what we've been told is that it's like read access on basically any system that they want. they're coming into

agencies in the middle of the night. i know last night a bunch of doge people, at least three of them were at the cfpb looking for additional access to systems. they're people are out of the loop. there are people there was the union met last night at cfpb, an emergency meeting trying to figure out what was going on. so even the employees who work at these companies who are career civil servants, they have no idea what's going on inside either. >> and they're being told that they have to comply with whatever these tech bros coming in are trying to do. >> yes, they're getting supply. these memorandum of understanding from the white house being told that this is the authority that musk's team doge, is getting for these systems and the union, these people have a lot of, you know, institutional knowledge on how these systems in these agencies work. so they're trying to push back as much as they can, poking holes at, oh, well, maybe someone is emailing them telling them to do something from omb or the white house. so maybe they don't have to follow these specific rules. the thing is, right now, what we're in is a huge state of flux where even us

reporters at wired, all of the reporting that we're doing, all the people that we're talking to, it is very, very difficult to figure out what it is that is exactly going on, because there is a few group of people who have this access, who have this knowledge and they aren't talking and they're very, very close to musk. >> so there's a lot of litigation going on. we've talked about these injunctions that are being entered to stop these doge bros from having access to this information. are you guys at wired looking at this litigation carefully to kind of see what evidence is coming out, what representations are being made in terms of yes read only. but then we find out later on they actually have the ability to change code. >> yes. that was a just a bomb of a report from my colleagues, vittoria and tim marchman and leah feiger, some of our fearless leaders at wired right now. and what they found was that, yes, we had reported previously that these doge people had write access on these these important sensitive treasury systems, allowing them

to make changes to the code and to the database. the white house, of course, said there was mixed reports at the time. when we first reported this, we had the new york times saying that the white house said that they only had read only access. but according to my colleagues in the discussions that they've had with their sources, even when that that write access was available to these workers, but they quietly rolled it back to be able to say, well, no, they didn't when we do have. >> to give them plausible deniability. >> yes, yes. >> so what are you guys looking for now? i mean, how are you guys staying on top of all of this? it's a it's a firehose of info for us in journalism trying to cover it all, but what are you guys looking at right now? >> yeah. so my last weekend when we first started hearing about interviews between doge people and workers at agencies like the general services administration, these very tech heavy agencies, it seemed as if musk's first focus was going to be these two pillars of technologists within the government. so that is usgs, which has now been renamed doge.

usgs was created in the first obama administration in order to save healthcare.gov. so this is a team of people who often come in from silicon valley to work on infrastructure, work on projects for the us government to make government work more efficiently, efficiently. that's what they've been doing for ten plus years. so there's that group of technologists, and then there's the technologists at gsa who do something similar, but they, you know, they have different mandates and things like that. so musk focused on those two agencies at first because they have so much technological expertise. and so that is where, you know, the musk bomb landed initially, and it's helped give them additional access to agencies across across our government. and so we've seen that blast radius expand further and further outside from the white house to agencies like the epa and everything down the line. there are some that haven't been touched. i've heard that the ftc has not really been touched just yet, but it does feel as if this is continuing and continuing to expand as days

go on. >> mckenna kelley, again, my hat off to you and the other fearless reporters at wired, your editors. you guys are really just keeping us informed, but we're simultaneously terrified because i don't trust musk and his doge bros to not continue what you say, which is such an accurate way of describing it. the blast radius continues to expand from the damage that's been done, and i'm fearing that they're not honest about the damage and the access that they've had. wow, mckenna, thank you so much for being here, i appreciate it. coming up next. tell it to the church how the proud boys lost their trademark to a historic black church in washington, dc. pastor reverend william lamar, the fourth on how a slogan once used for hate can actually help inspire us for what we're going inspire us for what we're going to do next. when caroline has a cough, she takes robitussin. so she can have those one-on-ones again. hey, jim... can we talk about casual fridays? for sure. what's up? get fast powerful cough relief with robitussin

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play when. >> our hearing wouldn't allow us to use a regular phone. >> it made us feel isolated. >> it became difficult to communicate with our friends and family. >> clear captions was an easy solution for us. >> clear captions provides captions on. >> a phone, like captioning on your tv so you can see what the caller is saying live as they say it. >> making it easy to understand and respond immediately. >> there is no insurance or medicare required. clear caption service is provided at no cost to you through a federally funded program. we deliver, install and train you on how to use your phone all at no cost to you. >> give your loved ones the independence. >> and connection they deserve. >> call now to see if you qualify. >> to get clear captions. >> phone at no cost to you. call 1-800-714-2088. that's 1-800-714-2088. >> it's a moment of justice. nearly five years in the making, in december of 2020, during a

pro-trump rally, members of the far right group the proud boys vandalized a black lives matter banner outside the metropolitan african methodist episcopal church in washington, dc. the then leader of the group, enrique tarrio, confessing to the vandalism and he was later sentenced to more than five months in jail for those and other charges. finally, this monday, after the proud boys defaulted on a nearly $3 million judgment, the church was awarded the proud boys trademark and any money that is made from selling the group's merchandise. joining me now is reverend william h. lamar, the fourth, the pastor at metropolitan african methodist episcopal church. sir, it is an honor to have you here. you know, when we spoke previously. yes, it's a legal victory. and i think it's important that this judgment has been entered and you guys now have the control of the trademark. but when i shared this news on my social, people were really happy because they felt like it was good news to see that the rule of law still

works and that justice can still be achieved. your thoughts about the symbolism of your black church having the trademark now, and controlling the trademark of the proud boys? >> katie, thank you for allowing. >> me to share. >> our story. it is. >> a karmic victory. >> it is the justice that we have. sought since our first encounter. >> here in the american. >> empire, and it is the justice that we will continue to seek. i believe that the proud boys thought that we would roll over, that we would play dead, but they did not know is that we stand in the tradition of elizabeth freeman, who sued for ownership of her own body in the 18th century. we stand in the tradition of ida b wells barnett, who was dogged and telling the true story about lynching and violence against black people for political purposes. we stand in the tradition of ella jo baker, who said, if the light is lifted up, the people will follow. and what we want to remind people with our victory is that the light of victory lives in each and every one of us, and we will soon be sharing on our website ways that

we can connect, ways that we can grow and use the resources we will gain not only to strengthen metropolitan, but to strengthen other organizations, religious and otherwise, who are doing the work of freedom and justice. this victory only showcases the fact that a thousand victories are blooming across the nation, and we need to amplify this victory. and i'm so thankful that i serve a community of people who are willing to stand, because there are many communities who would rather go quietly into the night. and we cannot do that, especially not now. >> reverend, how important is it for us to continue to keep the faith? and however you find that faith, whether it's through religion or otherwise, how important is it to keep the faith during such a dark time? because a lot of us feel like we're drowning, right? a lot of us feel like it's hard to see the light, especially when there's so much pain and so much terror that's being inflicted by this current administration.

>> i really appreciate your thoughtful question. the first thing i want to say is we must divorce ourselves from christian chauvinism. from our perspective, that means that all human beings together have the light and spark of the divine. we are all made in the image and likeness of the divine, according to my tradition. but whether you believe that or not, if you are a freedom loving human being, we need to realize that the way that power has been structured in the world, much of it has been structured to distract us. we see the power of what ezra klein has called the attentional oligarchs, who control what our eyes see and what our fingers scroll, and we see how many of them are capitulating to a fascist regime that is seeking to decimate the little democracy that we have here. what we must do is garner our resources. what we must do is to build our inner lives through community. now is the

time to listen to wonderful music and be inspired. now is the time to read beautiful things. now is the time to gather in person, to share energy that is necessary. i think about the wisdom of my ancestors who gathered in the dark night of enslavement, and remember that many states in the south made it illegal for black people to join. so we had to rush toward the river, rush into the hush arbors, to gather in fugitive spaces, to love each other enough for the fight that we don't just want to fight, we've got to rest. we've got to find time for joy recreation. but if we put together that fulsome, very human spirit that says we will be free no matter what, we are not made to live in cages and the cages that we find ourselves in. maya angelou reminds us that we will sing our way out of them if we sing together.

>> speechless. and this is why i needed to have you on, especially today. reverend doctor william lamar, the fourth. again, my congratulations to your church. on on on this victory legally. but also i think spiritually you guys are really making a difference. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. katie. >> coming up after the break, written in the waters. national geographic explorer in residence tara roberts on her new memoir and what her journey to trace the global slave trade revealed to her about her place in the world. stay with us. >> i told you i don't need these anymore. i have. >> sling okay. >> morning. >> i only left sling. deliver the news. i need to stay informed. thank you very much. nice one. >> nope. >> sling gives us all the news we want in a quick and reliable manner. >> and. >> at a. >> wonderful price. >> this critical time calls. >> for the critical news coverage. >> that sling provides.

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book that literally dives into the legacy of the transatlantic slave trade in written in the waters. national geographic explorer tara roberts tells the story of her journey to uncover the identities and the history of black people who were enslaved and who perished in shipwrecks. tara reflects on the impact the slave trade had on her own family and the lasting effects of slavery. joining me now is national geographic explorer tara roberts. tara, that alone that you're a national geographic explorer is pretty cool. but when i read that you've written this book and that you went on this journey after visiting a museum in washington, i had to ask, why were you so inspired by that visit? >> yeah, so i visited. >> the national. >> museum of african american history and culture, which is a beautiful, beautiful museum. but

in it, on the second. >> floor. >> there was a picture of a group of primarily black women in wetsuits on a boat. and i had never seen a picture of black. women in wetsuits on a boat before. so it really sparked something in me. and then when i read about what they were doing, i learned that they were a part of this group called diving with a purpose, and that what they did was search for and help document slave shipwrecks around the world. i was blown away by this work and just wanted to be a part of it some sort of way. >> you've traveled across the world, tara. you've been to four continents. you've been tracing these vessels of the trans-atlantic slave trade. how has this journey literally and figuratively impacted your own sense of identity in the world? >> oh, it's given me back to this history. i have to say that before this, i was a bit afraid

to embrace, to tackle my history. and that's partly because much of black history is often framed inside of its pain, its tragedy, its trauma. and it felt like too much. but being a part of this work, this scientific, archeological, adventurous work to connect with the past changed me in so many ways. it made me realize that these are stories that are not just about death and pain, but they are stories that are about resistance, resilience, survival. they're also stories that are about healing. so i connect it to my own ancestry in a way that i didn't anticipate as a result of doing this work. >> and it sounds to me like your book, your memoir, is also helping bring generational healing. we talk about

generational trauma, but it sounds to me that you're you're framing it in a way that really helps people to understand the context of what you've been doing and what you've discovered. >> yeah, the transatlantic slave trade is not just black history. it's not just american history. it's global history. it's relevant for all of us. i don't think that europe, africa, south america, north america or the caribbean would be what they are today if not for the trade. but this is a topic that is largely unexplored, unexamined. we don't know much about it. we often treat it as if it's a side note. so by engaging with these divers to bring this history up from the depths and back into memory, i think it gives us a way to embrace the past. and to find connection with each other.

>> it's pretty spectacular. >> really powerful. >> bit of work for me, >> truly, and it's pretty spectacular what you've done. i mean, it takes a level of bravery and courage to not only tackle the physical demands of what you've been doing and what they've been doing, but what you're also documenting. for those of us that want to learn a little bit more about our world. tara roberts, thank you so much for being here. i really appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> and thanks to all of you for joining us today. you can catch me back here next saturday at noon eastern, but don't go anywhere, please. msnbc reports with alex witt is coming up with alex witt is coming up next. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! effective urinary tract health

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