ev accept it. to say that they were distraught would be an understatement. they, i think, truly believe that tom fallis killed their daughter and they are never going to let that go. keith morrison: an idea once so deeply ingrained, true or not, will not go away. and tom fallis and his children make a life as best they can. that's all for this edition of dateline. i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. hello, i'm craig melvin, and this is "dateline." feel that so many people hello, i'm craig melvin, and this is "dateline."ou think steven avery is innocent? it's emotional. tom fassbender: they made him look like he was just a nice person. what's happening is wrong. the evidence is beyond overwhelming.

steven avery is guilty. i'm innocent. craig melvin: the story gripped the nation in the series "making a murderer." so many americans have learned about it. laura nirider: it's being heard by people around the world. craig melvin: steven avery and his nephew, convicted of murder and the haunting killing of a young photographer. but were they really innocent? andrea canning: did you have any kind of vendetta against steven avery? absolutely not. craig melvin: for the first time on television, a lead investigator defends his interrogation which led to a conviction overturned. andrea canning: this was seen by many as a false confession. i feel it was a real confession. he knew right from wrong. laura nirider: those officers wanted that information in the worst way, and they got it in the worst way. craig melvin: the prosecutor fights back with an explosive book. people are going to hear the other side of the story. craig melvin: and a promise from steven avery's high-powered, new attorney. andrea canning: do you think you have new evidence

that could free steven avery? we do. [theme music] welcome to "dateline." it's an extraordinary case that defies easy answers. at the center of it all? steven avery. he and his teenage nephew were convicted in the brutal murder of wisconsin photographer teresa halbach. then came a documentary series exploring allegations of police corruption so explosive investigators have been forced to fight back. two sides. one truth. who will you believe? andrea canning (voiceover): the mystery of what happened here in the sprawling fields of rural wisconsin has captivated the country. we the jury find the defendant, steven a. avery, guilty. andrea canning (voiceover): in 2015, the netflix series "making a murderer" convinced many viewers that steven avery

and brendan dassey, both convicted of murder, had been railroaded by law enforcement. crowd (chanting): free steven avery. andrea canning (voiceover): it's a case "dateline" has been following for more than a decade. as their lawyers work tirelessly to free them from prison, we pose the questions everyone's been asking to two men who helped put avery and dassey behind bars. why would steven avery do this? that's a great question. andrea canning (voiceover): we speak with former prosecutor ken kratz, who has written a book which reveals his provocative theory that steven avery made himself a murderer. ken kratz: steven avery started planning this event from the very first day he went to prison. andrea canning (voiceover): and we talk with tom fassbender, a lead investigator in the case, who has come under fire for this controversial interrogation. andrea canning: you've really stayed silent through this firestorm. why are you sitting here today? i finally realized that someone needed to speak out to bring forward the truth of what happened.

andrea canning (voiceover): so what did happen here? our story begins with the woman at the heart of this case, a 25-year-old photographer from kaukauna, wisconsin named teresa halbach. she just loved being behind the camera. andrea canning (voiceover): kim petersen and teresa became fast friends in college. both were photographers working at the same studio in green bay. kim says teresa had a special way with her subjects. kim peterson: she would get the smile. that was one thing i think that she really loved to do was just make other people smile. andrea canning (voiceover): the two stayed in touch after graduation as they launched their careers. but that would all change suddenly on october 31, 2005. kim caught a story on the local news. teresa was missing. reporter: investigators say the 25-year-old photographer was on assignment for "auto trader" magazine when she disappeared. and my heart just kind of dropped knowing that it was somebody i knew. what do you do at that moment? i felt helpless because you want to just deny it.

you want to try to get in touch with her. did you try to call her? i did try to text her, but-- andrea canning: no response? no response. andrea canning (voiceover): wisconsin police quickly launched a massive search, bolstered by a team of volunteers. after two days, a big break. they had found teresa's vehicle on the avery salvage yard. andrea canning (voiceover): tom fassbender, then a special agent with the wisconsin department of criminal investigation, hustled over to this 40-acre stretch of land in manitowoc county, home to the salvage yard and auto mechanic steven avery. had you heard his name before? only through the media. andrea canning (voiceover): steven avery was a big story. he'd been convicted of rape in 1985. but 18 years later, dna evidence exonerated him, and he was freed, a wrongfully convicted man welcome back to society with open arms and looking for justice of his own. oh god! oh, steve! andrea canning: were you aware that he

had filed a lawsuit against the local sheriff's department? yes. yes, i had heard that. andrea canning (voiceover): avery hoped winning the $36 million lawsuit could help him get back on his feet. tom fassbender: he had an opportunity to make something of his life, and it appeared that he was headed toward in that direction. andrea canning (voiceover): now, two years after his release from prison, this poster boy for wrongful convictions was back in the news, and not in a good way. i hope she comes back so she can go back to her family. andrea canning (voiceover): when fassbender arrived on site, he learned teresa halbach had an appointment at the salvage yard on october 31st to take photos of this van avery's sister was selling. teresa had left a message that morning. andrea canning (voiceover): steven avery confirmed to investigators that teresa had been on the property that day and left around 2:30 pm.

avery didn't tell them much more. but for investigators, a dark tale started emerging from the physical evidence, especially when they made a gruesome discovery in the back of teresa's suv. tom fassbender: we find teresa's blood in the vehicle, primarily in the cargo area of the rav4. andrea canning (voiceover): and in the front? more blood. tom fassbender: there was blood on some of the upholstery and a very telling swipe of blood near the ignition switch of the vehicle. andrea canning (voiceover): tests showed that blood was steven avery's, taking him from person of interest to prime suspect. andrea canning: you believe you can explain the blood from steven avery. well, yes, absolutely. steven avery had a cut on his right hand middle finger that was freshly scabbed over. and if you took that key, and you put it in that ignition switch, it just lined up perfectly with a contact pattern swipe. how did he explain that cut? i'm not sure if i remember that. i think he claimed that he had cut it in the junkyard doing work on vehicles.

andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender feared the worst. and after four days of searching, his team found something disturbing in a fire pit near avery's trailer. what appeared to be bone fragments. andrea canning (voiceover): human bones. most interesting because family members told investigators that steven avery had built a bonfire hours after teresa had been at the yard that day. tom fassbender: it was a huge bonfire, flames going as high as the edge of the roof on the garage. was it all making sense to you? bone fragments-- - looking at the whole picture? absolutely. andrea canning (voiceover): and that picture came into sharper focus when fassbender's team found another clue, teresa's key inside avery's bedroom. tom fassbender: the toyota key with a little fob connector to it. this is huge. yes, it's huge. andrea canning (voiceover): especially when the crime lab later found avery's dna on it. it would become a highly controversial clue in this case. the evidence was stacking up against steven avery, and fassbender says that rav4 would later tell

investigators one last thing. tom fassbender: we had tested the hood latch and found dna matching steven on the hood latch. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender believed avery had some explaining to do. so nine days after teresa's disappearance, he and his partner, mark wiegert, brought avery in for an interview. "dateline" filed a freedom of information request to obtain the video. andrea canning (voiceover): avery was defiant and even claimed cops were framing him, planting evidence. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender and wiegert weren't buying it and placed steven avery under arrest. andrea canning (voiceover): investigators were convinced they had their man. still, they didn't know how or why teresa had been killed. craig melvin: coming up--

shackles, handcuffs, strange behavior. ken kratz: teresa's creeped out. craig melvin: could something in his past have led him to murder? when "dateline" continues. still have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis... ...or crohn's disease symptoms after taking... ...a medication like humira or remicade? put them in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief with rinvoq. check. when flares tried to slow me down,... ...i got lasting remission with rinvoq. check. and many were in remission... ...even at nearly 2 years. and rinvoq... ...helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting remission. and visibly reduced damage. check. rinvoq can lower ability to fight infections. before treatment, test for tb and do bloodwork. serious infections, blood clots, some fatal;... ...cancers, including lymphoma and skin;... ...serious allergic reactions; gi tears; death;... ...heart attack; and stroke occurred. cv event risk increases in age 50 plus...

...with a heart disease risk factor. tell your doctor if you've had these events, infection,... ...hep b or c, smoked,... ...are pregnant or planning. don't take if allergic or have an infection. put uc and crohn's in check... ...and keep them there. with rinvoq. ask your gastroenterologist... ...about rinvoq. junior. junior. >> what are we doing here? mirajoy: the overwhelming relief after miralax® helps you “go” miralax® works naturally with the water in your body. putting you in a supernaturally good mood. miralax®: free your gut to free your mood. [coughing] copd isn't pretty. from the struggle to breathe... to getting stopped in your tracks. bye, grandma. ♪♪

but with trelegy, i can finally move forward. with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy keeps my airways open for a full 24 hours and prevents future flare-ups. once-daily trelegy also improves lung function, so i can breathe more freely all day and night. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes or eye pain occur. ♪what a wonderful world♪ ask your doctor about once-daily trelegy for copd because breathing should be beautiful, all day and night. the pictures on your phone are photobooks just waiting to be made. give us your photos and our free 24-hour designer service will make a book for you overnight. if it means something, make it something. use code tv40 for 40% off shutterfly orders over $29.

upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast. globally that are driving around with a potential ticking time bomb, a grenade in either their steering wheel or their dashboard. morgan and morgan has a national reach in terms of handling and prosecuting cases. notwithstanding the team of lawyers that we have collected that focus only on product that focus only on product liability day in and andrea canning (voiceover): in january 2006, steven avery pleaded not guilty to the murder of teresa halbach, and special prosecutor ken kratz began building his case.

he chronicles it all in his book "avery." andrea canning: what do you feel people know the least about in this case? the book is about the case against steven avery that is setting forth a better representation of what the real evidence was. andrea canning (voiceover): better, he said, than the way the evidence was presented in "making a murderer." in his book, kratz laid out his complete theory of the case with new details he'd never shared before. for one thing, kratz told "dateline" he believes steven avery had set his sights on teresa halbach in the weeks leading up to her murder. ken kratz: as we move closer towards october 31st, we see steven's behavior changing. andrea canning (voiceover): as kratz got "auto traders" records, he learned teresa had actually made five earlier visits to the avery salvage yard to take photos, some at steven avery's request. he starts making calls directly to teresa halbach rather than going through "auto trader."

andrea canning (voiceover): and kratz determined that on the day before one of those visits avery purchased these shackles and handcuffs. and when teresa arrived? ken kratz: he answers the door that day wearing a small white towel, and teresa we know is creeped out by that behavior. she tells friends and co-workers about that. andrea canning (voiceover): kratz believes avery's behavior shows signs of a sexual obsession with teresa that led to murder. andrea canning: why would steven avery do this when he was on the verge of getting this big windfall? potentially millions of dollars. that's a great question. i don't know. we know that he's a psychopath. we know that he has-- do we know that? well, i-- let's say i alleged that, ok? i believe that deep down. andrea canning (voiceover): kratz discovered more in avery's past. 18 years before teresa's murder, avery wrote this letter to his estranged wife from prison saying, "i will kill you." and a former fiancee told police he had physically abused her.

and kratz says he learned something even more disturbing. this 2006 police report shows a teenage girl accused avery of raping her a year after his release from prison. it all came together for kratz. he believes avery had developed a deep resentment of women, which had started with his wrongful conviction and had only grown over the years. he has no remorse for his behavior, feels incredibly entitled. andrea canning (voiceover): but as he continued to investigate the case, kratz had a problem. andrea canning: you still didn't know how she was killed, exactly where she was killed. was that bothering you? yes. but sometimes, you know, you have what you have. it was all coming together in bits and pieces. andrea canning (voiceover): he and his team kept digging until they got a big lead. man: why don't you just have a seat, brendan. andrea canning (voiceover): in march 2006, four months after teresa's murder, tom fassbender and his partner, mark wiegert, spoke

with avery's 16-year-old nephew, brendan dassey, in a series of now highly-scrutinized interviews. what was your first impression of brendan dassey? a shy kid, somewhat introverted. andrea canning (voiceover): but once he opened up, the details he revealed would stun investigators. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender says dassey described a brutal scene. on that halloween afternoon, his uncle asked him to come over to his trailer. dassey said they each sexually assaulted teresa in avery's bedroom and avery later shot her in his garage, burning her body in the bonfire. tom fassbender: it's a game changer. he told us stuff that we weren't really aware of, like teresa was shot in the garage and had died there. andrea canning (voiceover): and after speaking with dassey, fassbender had his team return to the avery property once more, and they found this in his garage-- a bullet fragment.

andrea canning: and that was missed the first time around? well, i guess they could say it was missed. but you're talking about a bullet fragment, a 22 bullet fragment. it looks like a piece of dirt possibly. it was tested? it was tested, yes. teresa's dna was on that bullet, and the bullet was shot from steven's rifle, or the one above his bed. andrea canning: do you now believe that teresa was shot in that garage? yes. andrea canning (voiceover): one strange thing, though-- when they searched the garage for blood, they never found a drop. how could you clean up all that blood? well, he did it to the best of his ability, i guess. bleach, paint thinner, that cleans up blood. andrea canning (voiceover): teresa's friend, kim, says when she heard the details about teresa's final moments, she was heartbroken. kim peterson: i remember crying and just hoping she was who she was and fought because she was a very strong person. andrea canning (voiceover): ken kratz charged brendan dassey as a conspirator in her murder. i intend to hold each of these defendants accountable for the rape, the torture, and the murder

of teresa halbach. andrea canning (voiceover): but not so fast, dassey recanted his statements. just before avery's trial, the judge dismissed the rape charge against him and didn't allow any of those allegations about avery's treatment of women, saying they didn't prove anything about teresa's murder. and avery was never charged with assaulting his ex fiancee or with raping the teen. to this day, he denies all the allegations. and those handcuffs and shackles? no evidence ever linked them to teresa. still, in the spring of 2007, juries, in separate trials, convicted both dassey and avery of murdering teresa. they were each sentenced to life in prison. you are probably the most dangerous individual ever to set foot in this courtroom. andrea canning (voiceover): it seemed like the avery saga had ended. but eight years later, "making a murderer" would put fassbender, kratz, and their entire team in the hot seat. craig melvin: coming up.

did they plant evidence? sure they did. craig melvin: was steven avery framed? andrea canning: is it possible that that blood could have been planted? craig melvin: when "dateline" continues. over 100 million packages. were stolen. worse yet, over 500,000. homes were broken into. the party's over. porch. pirates and prowlers. this is the bionic solar floodlight from bell and howell. it showers a massive 1000 foot area of ultra bright light all the way from your house to the road or the whole backyard. plus, it's solar powered, so it's free to operate. >> when prowlers. >> approach, the motion sensors activate and bam, they go bye bye. plus, it expands. >> your. >> outdoor living space, making yards, patios and walkways brighter. this next generation solar powered light features 120 high intensity led bulbs on three separate adjustable

panels, delivering multi-directional light. it installs in seconds anywhere, no wires or stake it in the ground and customize the panels anywhere you want. like look, your lights are too weak, but watch bam! >> that's bionic. >> light power. check out the difference before and after which home looks safer to you. the bionic floodlight is the ultimate security light. standing guard up to 25ft, keeping your family safer, and no more critters getting in your trash. now there's plenty of light to scare them away. it'll light up your life when you pull into a bright driveway and enjoy more outdoor living space with bright, beautiful light folks. the bionic floodlight delivers safety and style. look at this yard before and after. it's a night and day difference. some outdoor solar lights sell for over $150, but you can get the bionic solar floodlight from trusted bell and howell for just 29.99, and we'll even ship it to you free. order right now and get a second bionic floodlight at 50% off. and it all comes with our bell and howell five year warranty. the demand has been huge, so don't wait or you

can miss out order right now. >> to order, call 1-800-709-3329 or go to bionic floodlight.com. so call 1-800-709-3329. that's 1-800-709-3329 or order 1-800-4s

one (800) 403-7539. >> donald trump is defending the mass firings of federal watchdogs. >> our federal government now can discriminate against the citizens of the country. >> we are all. >> watching and waiting to see >> watching and waiting to see who is going to hold the line. andrea canning (voiceover): in december 2015, netflix released "making a murderer." and it ignited a bonfire of controversy over the convictions of steven avery and brendan dassey.

now, many viewers believed the claims avery had been making all along that he was framed by law enforcement. did they plant evidence? sure they did. andrea canning (voiceover): kim ducat court is avery's cousin. she says she had predicted something bad might happen to him after he was exonerated in that earlier rape case. remember, he had recently filed a lawsuit against his local sheriff's department for his wrongful conviction. i did tell him manitowoc wasn't done with him. why did you think they weren't done with him? something just told me they weren't going to hand steve avery $36 million or any kind of money, that they were just going to be watching him. and look what happened. andrea canning (voiceover): avery ended up settling that lawsuit for $400,000 before his trial. the county did not acknowledge any wrongdoing. he used the money to hire his defense attorneys

dean strang and jerry buting. we knew going in it was going to be a difficult defense. andrea canning (voiceover): we spoke to buting in early 2016. we had a very tough defense in this case because nobody wants to try and use as a defense that the police deliberately tried to plant evidence or frame somebody. that's not-- it goes against society. it's very difficult. those people are there to help us. they're the police. right. but it's where we thought the evidence pointed. andrea canning (voiceover): avery's attorneys believe the fact that officers from the county he was suing were part of the search made for a huge conflict of interest and for possible mischief at the crime scene. what i can say is from the evidence i've looked at, i think he was innocent-- is innocent. andrea canning (voiceover): preparing for trial, buting learned about a vial of avery's blood leftover from his overturned rape conviction which had been sitting in the manitowoc county clerk's office. and saw that there was still a styrofoam box that had been

slit open with evidence tape. that's really the big a-ha moment. yeah, it was. andrea canning (voiceover): and for many viewers, it was the a-ha moment in "making a murderer." man: a little, tiny hole. andrea canning (voiceover): the attorneys theorized that someone could have poked the hole in that vial and spread avery's blood inside teresa halbach's suv. as for teresa's car key? andrea canning: your theory is that the key was planted in the residence. that is where we thought the evidence pointed, yes. by the police? by someone. it was not found in six or seven earlier entries to the trailer, and we're talking about a trailer. it didn't add up. andrea canning (voiceover): co-lead investigator tom fassbender worked alongside the local county sheriff's deputies but was employed by a different agency, the wisconsin department of justice. this was the first time he'd responded publicly to the accusations against him and his former law enforcement colleagues. did you have any kind of vendetta against steven avery or his family? absolutely not.

i didn't know steven avery. i didn't know his family, never been there. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender bristles at the idea the local investigators could have done anything unethical. tom fassbender: the people that were there that i worked with from manitowoc county were hardworking. they only wanted to do the right thing and to do this investigation in the right way. is it possible that blood could have been planted? no. everything, all the evidence, says no. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender notes that a chemical called edta had been used to preserve avery's blood in the vial. and that, at trial, tests showed no presence of edta in avery's blood found in the suv. tom fassbender: didn't match, no edta in the blood in the vehicle. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender's argument? since that blood found in the vehicle didn't contain the chemical, it couldn't have come from the vial. and he notes that a nurse was prepared to testify she had made that hole in the vial as part of her usual routine when she drew blood from avery.

so the fact that there was a little hole in the top of the vial is normal. andrea canning (voiceover): and regarding teresa's car key not found until the seventh search of avery's trailer? andrea canning: why was that key missed during those other searches? well, primarily because where the key was located, in a small bookcase, that wasn't searched yet. and if it was, it was just kind of looked at. why not do the thorough search earlier? oh, i would guess part of it is because we didn't lock and load on steven avery. we went in there, did that depth first search. but we had 12 more buildings and four more residences to search, so we had a lot to do. andrea canning (voiceover): still, it wasn't just when the key was found that has avery's supporters skeptical. it's who found it-- these two men, james lenk and andrew colborn, then with the manitowoc county sheriff's department. it turned out they had just been deposed in avery's lawsuit. tom fassbender: well, they were deposed. that we later found out, that they were deposed. andrea canning: so do you think, though, that maybe just them,

by nature of being with manitowoc, that maybe they shouldn't have been in there at all just to avoid all of this speculation. it's easy to armchair quarterback and second guess. i think we would have done that maybe if we had the resources. but you're talking about a small, rural county being assisted by another smaller rural county. you need resources. steven avery said says these guys had it out for me. that whole department was angry at me. this was the perfect opportunity for them to have access to my trailer, plant the key. i never absolutely saw that, never, never saw that from anyone at manitowoc county. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender says he believes a conspiracy to frame avery would have been virtually impossible to carry out. yeah, i could go on and on about the planting defense and how absurd it is with the multiple agencies that we had in there. andrea canning (voiceover): but it was that video of brendan dassey which would really put fassbender at the center of the storm, an interrogation. so controversial

it might get avery's nephew out of prison. how much of brendan dassey's confession was true? coming up. those officers wanted that information in the worst way, and they got it in the worst way. craig melvin: when "dateline" continues. stay ahead of your child's moderate-to-severe eczema with dupixent as they welcome the feeling of touch with clearer skin and less itch. the #1 prescribed biologic by dermatologists and allergists helps heal their skin from within. severe allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for face, mouth, tongue or throat swelling, wheezing or trouble breathing. tell your doctor of new or worsening eye problems, like eye pain, vision changes, or blurred vision, joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. don't change or stop asthma or other medicines without talking to your doctor. ask your child's doctor about dupixent. mirajoy: the overwhelming relief after miralax® helps you “go” miralax® works naturally with the water in your body.

putting you in a supernaturally good mood. miralax®: free your gut to free your mood. refreshed for. >> a more productive day. >> get 24. >> hour. >> continuous relief that does >> continuous relief that does not (♪♪) years of hard work. decades of dedication. committed to giving back. you've been there, done that. and you're still here for more. so now that you're 50 or older, and at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia and ipd be proactive with capvaxive- a vaccine specifically designed for adults to help protect against pneumonia and invasive disease caused by certain types of pneumococcal bacteria. capvaxive is the only vaccine that helps protect against the strains that cause 84% of ipd in adults 50 or older compared with up to 52% by other pneumococcal conjugate vaccines.

don't get capvaxive if you're allergic to the vaccine or its ingredients. tell your doctor if you have a weakened immune system. common side effects include injection-site reactions, feeling tired, headache, muscle aches, and fever. whether you've had another pneumococcal vaccine or not palestinian. ask your doctor or pharmacist about capvaxive. (♪♪)

>> prisoners in exchange. >> for three. >> israelis who were. >> freed by hamas. >> the hostages. >> appeared gaunt before the handover. the red crescent reported that seven palestinian prisoners were. >> taken to hospitals. >> and new. >> orleans has. >> boosted security. >> in preparation. >> for tonight's super. bowl game. >> nearly 3000. >> officers will be stationed. >> in the french quarter. >> and nearby areas. >> bourbon street, the site. >> of. >> a deadly new year's day attack, will be closed to. >> traffic at night. >> traffic at night. >> for now, back

welcome back to "dateline." i'm craig melvin. investigators denied they framed steven avery for the murder of teresa halbach. after all, his nephew, brendan, confessed. but did he tell detectives the truth? or what he thought they wanted to hear? here with more of our story is andrea canning. andrea canning (voiceover): all the renewed attention in the steven avery saga has shed light on the other defendant in the case, brendan dassey. the teenager had been convicted of rape and murder. but to his family, none of it ever made any sense. andrea canning: is brendan someone capable of rape? no. no. i don't even think he knew what that was at the time. andrea canning (voiceover): in 2008, attorneys steven drizin and laura nirider took up dassey's case for his appeal. they saw a mentally challenged teen with a low iq. andrea canning: what did you think of brendan dassey when you were finally

able to meet him in person? brendan is a simple soul. i was struck by his humanity. this is not somebody i could see committing a crime like this. that's the psychological power of interrogation. andrea canning (voiceover): the two attorneys are based at the northwestern university school of law in chicago. they've worked to free a number of wrongfully convicted defendants and say what they learned about dassey's case astounded them. nobody was in brendan dassey's corner at the moment he needed help the most. andrea canning (voiceover): beginning, they say, with this man. andrea canning: give me one word to describe len kachinsky. unbelievable. unconscionable. andrea canning (voiceover): len kachinsky came on board to defend dassey just after that interrogation got avery's nephew arrested. drizin and nirider discovered that the attorney had made legal mistakes that caused him to be removed from the case. he has faced online vitriol from dassey supporters. andrea canning: is it ok if i read you some of the comments? sure, go ahead. disgusting human being.

a pure disgrace to the wisconsin judicial system. a man with a sickened soul. i've seen it. andrea canning (voiceover): in one instance, kachinsky, working to cut a plea deal while dassey was in jail, had arranged for his client to speak with investigators. but kachinsky himself didn't show up. that was clearly a mistake. this is huge, though. len kachinsky: i agree. i mean, you've got a 16-year-old kid with a low iq with no attorney present, no parent. [inaudible] andrea canning: it's kind of like feeding someone to the wolves in a way. would you apologize to brendan dassey? well, i'd apologize to him for not being at that interview. - so there were mistakes made. - oh, sure. there were mistakes, but none of them contributed to the verdict in dassey's case. there are people who disagree with that. oh, sure. andrea canning (voiceover): but as dassey's attorneys delved further into those stunning statements the teen made, they came to believe something more disturbing, that investigators tom fassbender

and mark wiegert had coerced the teen into making a false confession. these officers took advantage of a disabled youth and got him to say what they wanted him to say. steven drizin: he's got severe learning disabilities, inability to respond in narrative-type answers, and they're in precisely the areas that make him vulnerable to the kind of tactics that the police officers used in this case. andrea canning (voiceover): the attorneys say that the investigators manipulated dassey with coaxing statements, like these from fassbender, who was seated just off camera. they should never have made those kinds of suggestions that they wanted to comfort him, that all would be well. those kinds of tactics, when used on a kid like brendan,

are a recipe for false confessions. andrea canning (voiceover): and they say the investigators manipulation of the teen escalated far beyond simple coaxing. the officers needed brendan to provide information that only the real killer would know, and they knew what they wanted him to say. andrea canning (voiceover): they accused the investigators of planting details about the crime in dassey's mind to get the answers they wanted. for example, remember steven avery's dna found on the car hood latch? the attorneys say investigators asked dassey leading questions to confirm that his uncle had looked under the hood of the car. andrea canning (voiceover): and dassey's attorneys say in that same interview the investigators used

another crucial detail they learned about the case from the forensics. they had received a report from the wisconsin crime lab indicating, for the first time, how teresa halbach had died. she had been shot in the head. they worked extremely hard to get brendan to say that. cut off her hair. what else. >> was done. >> to her head. >> that he punched her? >> what else? >> it's okay. >> what do you make you do, connor? what else happens to her in her head? extremely, extremely important. you tell us this. >> for us to believe you. >> come on. brendan. what else? >> that's all i can remember.

>> all right, i'm. >> just going to come out and ask you who shot. her in the ask you who shot. her in the he those officers wanted that information in the worst way, and they got it in the worst way-- by feeding it straight to brendan dassey. even they know that that's bad police practice. andrea canning (voiceover): then drizin and nirider discovered something at the end of that interview which was a revelation to them, something jurors in his trial never heard-- dassey speaking to his mother. at the first moment that brendan gets outside the influence of those interrogators, he says, no, this is not true. they got to my head. andrea canning (voiceover): but tom fassbender, the interrogator himself,

sees it all very differently. craig melvin: coming up. andrea canning: this was seen by many as a false confession. i feel it was a real confession. he knew right from wrong. brendan was involved in this. craig melvin: when "dateline" continues. upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast. ooo! our car's value went up! the power of nature. maybe we should track all our cars' value on carvana? we need more trackers! oh! i'm getting a value update! do you see which one is going off? how's it trackin'? some dips, some rises. now what? "hold?" sold. track your car's value on carvana today. >> and it starts with cosequin.

>> our dogs. >> are like. >> athletes in the ring. >> but at home they're our companions, just like yours. >> our veterinarian recommends. >> giving them cosequin every. >> day for the moments that matter. >> trust cosequin. >> cosequin. >> the number. >> one veterinarian recommended retail joint health brand, an retail joint health brand, an official have you always had trouble with your weight? same. discover the power of wegovy®. with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds. and i'm keeping the weight off. i'm reducing my risk. wegovy® is the only weight-management medicine proven to reduce risk of major cardiovascular events such as death, heart attack, or stroke in adults with known heart disease and obesity. don't use wegovy® with semaglutide or glp-1 medicines, or in children under 12. don't take if you or your family had mtc, men 2, or if allergic to it. tell your provider if you plan to have surgery or a procedure, are breastfeeding, pregnant, or plan to be. stop taking and get medical help right away

if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or any of these allergic reactions. serious side effects may include pancreas inflammation and gallbladder problems. call your prescriber if you have any of these symptoms. wegovy® may cause low blood sugar in people with diabetes, especially if you take medicines to treat diabetes. call your prescriber about vision changes, if you feel your heart racing while at rest, or if you have mental changes. depression or thoughts of suicide may occur. common side effects include nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, constipation, stomach pain, flu, or upset, headache, feeling tired, dizzy, or bloated, gas, and heartburn. some side effects lead to dehydration, which may cause kidney problems. with wegovy®, i'm losing weight, i'm keeping it off, and i'm lowering my cv risk. ask your prescriber about wegovy®.

for peter. that's peter. should for peter. that's peter. should have known. when bad allergies attack... ♪♪ trust claritin to keep you in the game. ♪♪ nothing is proven more powerful for continuous non-drowsy allergy relief. live claritin clear.® ♪♪ for msnbc daily@msnbc.com. andrea canning (voiceover): for his interrogation of brendan dassey, now seen by millions, tom fassbender has come under fire in court and online.

andrea canning: this was seen by many as a false confession. do you see it as a false confession or a real confession? i feel it was a real confession. were you ever trying to extract a false confession from him? absolutely not. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender denies that his expressions of sympathy for dassey were manipulative. i legitimately was concerned for him. that wasn't staged. that wasn't strategy. why do you think people took it the other way? the more sinister way, that you were taking advantage of him. i think that's easy to do that. it's a cynical approach, so to speak-- watching tv, watching movies, how cops are depicted on those movies trying to trick people into saying stuff. everything about the interview with brendan was soft, was comfortable. andrea canning (voiceover): but comfortable might not be a word dassey's supporters would use, especially given his age and intelligence level. what about his iq? because when you watch him, you can

tell that he has a lower iq. i don't-- i don't assess iqs. i mean, i'm not-- but could you tell that he maybe wasn't like other boys his age? more socially, probably. i don't know across the iq social line. but he could think, and he knew right from wrong. is it possible that he's easily manipulated? it's possible. he sounded confused at times. quite possibly. he didn't know what was up and down. i don't know, just watching it. i don't know about that. my thought is he had a million things going on in his head at that time. andrea canning (voiceover): fassbender resists charges that he and his partner inappropriately planted ideas in dassey's head, like in that exchange about the hood latch. andrea canning: what did brendan say? he agreed that that steven had gone under that. you use the word agreed.

yes. so you brought it up first. yeah, i believe so. and that's one of the areas that you came under fire for. yes. is that you were planting things in his mind. yes, that's what they said. and there were instances that we did ask him specifically about things, yes. and that can happen in an interview. can we take that as a reliable answer? given how it was spoon-fed to him. well, their side would argue no, and i would say, based on the entirety of the interview, i would say yes. andrea canning (voiceover): and as for that other moment that has angered so many followers of the case? andrea canning: any regrets about that? bringing it up yourselves? about putting that in his head? there's always things that you can improve on. there were instances, because of brendan's personality, that we had to talk to him about and ask more

specifically certain questions. and that happens. what do you say to those people who have made you part of this big discussion about false confessions and who were yelling at their tvs because they didn't like the job that you did? just that it's easy to armchair quarterback. it's easy to second guess. that's partly why i'm here is to explain that there was nothing nefarious done. andrea canning (voiceover): but even fassbender wonders if everything dassey said in the confession was true. we didn't try to manipulate brendan. we tried to get at the truth. and i don't believe that it was a false confession. are there parts of it that he may have not done? i don't know. i just don't know. andrea canning (voiceover): in august of 2016, a federal judge weighed in with a bombshell.

in response to a brief filed by dassey's attorneys, judge william duffin ruled that brendan dassey's confession was involuntary. with that, the judge overturned his conviction and ordered dassey to be released from prison. andrea canning: what was that like for you hearing that news? mixed emotions. i know we did everything aboveboard. that one magistrate rules that it isn't fine, in his opinion, which is all right because that's the system. are you ok if he walks free? i'm not ok if the family's not ok. i believe brendan was involved in this, that he was there, and he was involved in it. andrea canning (voiceover): the wisconsin attorney general also believes brendan was involved in teresa's murder. he appealed the judge's order for release, asking a full panel of federal judges to review the case. in september of 2017, that request was granted.

the seventh circuit us court of appeals heard arguments about whether dassey's confession was coerced. nine weeks later, the seven judge panel upheld the state courts finding that dassey's confession was voluntary, meaning the young man will remain in prison. the us supreme court declined to review his case. brendan dassey's lawyers have vowed to continue the fight for his freedom. craig melvin: coming up. he told me to watch "dateline." craig melvin: in the steven avery case, how a six-year-old "dateline" led to a brand new attorney. sandy greenman: i said, that's the woman that's going to get steven out of prison. craig melvin: when "dateline" continues. my moderate to severe crohn's symptoms kept me out of the picture. now i have skyrizi. ♪ i've got places to go and i'm feeling free. ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me.♪ and now i'm back in the picture.

feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi helped visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and with skyrizi, many were in remission at 12 weeks, at 1 year, and even at 3 years. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections, or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. liver problems leading to hospitalization may occur when treated for crohn's. now's the time to take control of your crohn's. ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ ask your doctor about skyrizi, the #1 prescribed biologic in crohn's disease. got an itchy throat from allergies? new claritin liquid provides powerful, all-day allergy relief in an instantly soothing liquid. for relief of even your most irritating symptoms, like an itchy throat. new claritin liquid. live claritin clear.®

>> try dulcolax chewy fruit bites for fast and gentle constipation relief in as little constipation relief in as little as (auctioneer) let's start the bidding at 5 million dollars. (man) robinhood gold members get a 3% ira match. while the wealthy hoard their perks, our retirement contributions are boosted by 3%. now with robinhood gold. the best moments deserve the best eggs. especially when they're eggland's best. taste so deliciously fresh. with better nutrition, too. we love our eggs any style. as long as they're the best. eggland's best. vehicles globally that are driving around with a potential ticking time bomb, a grenade in either their steering wheel or their dashboard. morgan and

morgan has a national reach in terms of handling and prosecuting cases. notwithstanding the team of lawyers that we have collected that focus only on product

andrea canning (voiceover): steven avery and his supporters had been hoping for good news. and they couldn't know it yet, but help was just around the corner. he was very gentle and very loving. sandy greenman is avery's longtime friend and one-time fiancee. convinced of his innocence, she says she searched for years to find the right attorney to take on his complicated case. during a call from prison, avery told her to watch "dateline." he had heard that there was going to be this ryan ferguson case on "dateline." and so he told me to watch it just to see the lawyer. andrea canning (voiceover): that "dateline" program, from august 2011, told the story of ryan ferguson, a young man sitting in prison for a murder he said he didn't commit.

attorney kathleen zellner was determined to get him out. nothing's as riveting as this. when the trial's been lost, everything's been lost, and you've got something and they're as innocent, it's like the ultimate challenge i think. sandy greenman: i said, that's the woman that's going to get steven out of prison. andrea canning (voiceover): zellner specializes in wrongful conviction cases and says she has freed many defendants, including ryan ferguson. sandy contacted her, and she joined the case not long after "making a murderer" came out. we caught up with zellner at the waupun correctional institution when she paid a visit to avery in early 2016. andrea canning: million dollar question, do you think you have new evidence that could free steven avery? we do, yeah. andrea canning (voiceover): zellner invited "dateline" into this war room she created in her office outside of chicago, all dedicated to the avery case. do we know if that was tested? andrea canning (voiceover): and she even showed us this rav4 she bought to get a better understanding

of teresa's vehicle. then in august of 2016, to much media fanfare, she filed a motion in manitowoc county court seeking new testing of the evidence. we're going to find out one way or the other was the evidence planted. kathleen zellner is known as an aggressive defense attorney. andrea canning (voiceover): ari melber is chief legal correspondent for msnbc. she's looking for new evidence to argue the entire case was done the wrong way. she's basically trying to put the state on trial. andrea canning (voiceover): in her 45-page legal motion, zellner attacks law enforcement, tries to poke holes in the prosecution's case, and raises new questions. she notes that teresa's cell phone pinged off a cell phone tower 13 miles away later that day, suggesting maybe she left there alive. there's also indications that other people not from law enforcement entered the property during the investigation, raising the prospect of other potential suspects.

andrea canning (voiceover): and she's won an early round. in november 2016, a judge granted her access to some of the evidence so her experts could perform new forensic tests, including more advanced testing on avery's blood from the rav4. in june 2017, zellner filed a motion requesting a new trial for avery. in a statement, she told "dateline," "we will be able to demonstrate exactly how the evidence was planted in the early part of the investigation." avery, she insists, was framed for a crime he did not commit. but in october 2017, a wisconsin circuit court denied that request. zellner petitioned the judge's ruling to the wisconsin court of appeals and promised that she's just beginning to fight. as for former prosecutor ken kratz and his new book, zellner dismisses kratz's claims about avery's treatment of women and interactions with teresa saying,

"there was no proof mr. avery was becoming obsessed with ms. halbach." and that "rehashing a story about inadmissible evidence seems pointless." zellner also notes, "mr. kratz has no qualifications which would allow him to diagnose mr. avery as a psychopath." "mr. avery has never been diagnosed as a psychopath." kratz, who prosecuted both steven avery and brendan dassey says he's undaunted. andrea canning: are you afraid of kathleen zellner? no, i'm not involved in the case anymore. i shouldn't be afraid of anything. my involvement-- - she could-- - --concluded. - she could-- - go ahead. she could unravel your work if what she's saying has some weight to it. you don't think she has a chance? i don't. if she's so confident, why are you so confident? because we spent 18 months putting this case together. this wasn't just thrown together. it wasn't a bunch of keystone cops. it was done very professionally, very well. andrea canning (voiceover): kratz

does have personal regrets. in his book, he admits to past prescription drug abuse and says he's ashamed that he sent sexually suggestive texts to a domestic violence victim two years after avery's trial, a scandal which led to his resignation. while he still takes issue with "making a murderer," he says he's moving on with his life. ken kratz: i'm hoping this book will change the narrative. andrea canning (voiceover): but with all the talk of guilt or innocence, trials or retrials, kim petersen says that the person being forgotten is her friend, teresa. kim peterson: she is the reason why we're even talking about this, and she just deserves to be remembered. i love hugs. andrea canning (voiceover): for her memories, kim says she goes back to this grainy video diary teresa made three years before she died. it was played at avery's sentencing. it gives me the chills every time i hear it because she talked about everything she loved.

andrea canning: is there anything you would say to teresa right now if she could hear you? kim peterson: just that you're still in my heart, and i'll never forget you. whenever that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. [theme music] >> good morning. >> and welcome. to this sunday. edition of morning joe. weekend. it was another fast moving news week. that's an understatement. and here are. >> some of the. >> conversations you might have missed. >> president has not.