weekend this sunday morning. we'll see you back here next saturday at 8 a.m. eastern. and be sure to follow us everywhere on social media at the weekend, msnbc velshi continues our coverage. ali is all yours, my friend. >> all right. it's my on the road to victory. there we go. >> whoa, >> whoa, somebody's yelling in my ear. traitor! >> wow. there is no way. >> that my director is telling me now, after all these years, that he's a chiefs fan. we could have had that discussion earlier, sean.

>> you're right. tonight kendrick lamar. you know, drake j. cole, the fellas. you know it's going to be with kendrick is going to be a nice it's. >> going to be a good game. two too bad for you guys. you all get up so early. are you going to be able to stay up late? i mean the old days when i used to do that shift, it's like people say it's all super bowl tonight. it's like, i'll be asleep, but thanks. tonight i'll be watching. what a great show. thank you for that i actually i was really enjoying that conversation with, with jamie raskin about the idea that, you know, some people don't have standing in this thing the american people have standing in this conversation that when he when he when he introduced that idea of maybe a nationwide class action lawsuit that stuck with me. so thank you for that. you guys have a good, good next few hours because you won't be able to sleep too much. you're going to have you got work to do tonight watching the watching the super bowl and those those eagles. and i guess that other

team that's playing as well alcs starts now. hey good morning. it's sunday, february the 9th, day 20 of the second trump administration. and in the final months of the 2024 presidential election, donald trump went out of his way many times to distance himself from this project. 2025 the ultra conservative policy blueprint that was deeply unpopular amongst voters, particularly if you got a chance to read all 922 pages of it. trump literally claimed to know nothing about this. he disavowed the heritage foundation, which spearheaded the project he disavowed disavowed the fact that a number of his allies were involved in it. now, a lot of people around him pulled their support for project 2025 during the election. the publication of this book by the heritage foundation was, was was a bit of a problem because the foundation's president, kevin

roberts, had a book that was delayed until after the election because the foreword to that book was written by the guy who trump chose as his running mate, jd vance. trump's trump's top campaign advisers even put out a statement that read, quote, reports of project 2025 demise would be greatly welcomed. remember i talked about project 2025 literally every time i was on tv. but now, just weeks into trump's second term, project 2025 influence abounds. it's not even in the shadows anymore. several of trump's cabinet members and administrative employees are credited as authors of, or contributors to specific chapters in project 2025, including his new cia director, john ratcliffe, the fcc chair, brendan carr, the border czar, tom homan, his senior counselor peter navarro, who did time in jail. and last thursday, all 53 republican

senators voted to confirm one of project 2025 key architects, russell vote to lead a critical white house office vote, is now the director of the office of management and budget, which is a position that he previously held during trump's first term. now, he has caught people's attention in the past for his apparent support of christian nationalism or something like it. as he tried to explain in this video that was captured by undercover journalists for the center for climate reporting. >> my viewpoint is mostly that i would probably be christian nation ism. that's pretty close to christian nationalism, because i also believe in nationalism. just let. >> that sink in for a second. i also believe in nationalism. that man is now a top government official. vote explained his stance more thoroughly in a 2021 essay for newsweek titled is

there anything actually wrong with christian nationalism? yes, actually, in a nation where the very first line of the very first amendment to its constitution states very specifically and unambiguously quote, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. end quote. easy class dismissed. in his essay, vogt wrote that christian nationalism is, quote, a commitment to an institutional separation between church and state, but not the separation of christianity from its influence on government and society. end quote. you're wrong, russell, about that. he is wrong, but he sure is powerful. although vogt has only been a member of the new administration for a few days, his influence is already being felt in a number of very, very important ways. in addition

to being the director of the office of management and budget, he's also taken on the role of acting director of the consumer financial protection bureau. that's the agency tasked with protecting american consumers from predatory financial products and practices. and in an email to cfpb employees sent out last night, he issued a dozen directives that effectively paused most of the agency's activities activities that protect consumers from predatory practices by companies. those developments come a day after elon musk's surprise surprise posted on x quote. cfpb, r.i.p, basically boasting about how the trump administration is planning to gut that agency next month, much like they did with usaid last week. votes takeover of the cfpb provides a snapshot of the changes that he thinks are necessary within the federal government, and how he thinks

the powers of the executive branch can be used to bring those agencies to heel. vogt believes in the unitary executive theory. this was a once fringe legal theory that posits that the president has unilateral control over the executive branch. it rejects the idea of bureaucratic independence. it proposes that the president has expansive powers to ensure that his political ideology is carried out in the bureaucracy, as he wants. this is antithetical to what we in the western world believe a bureaucracy is. this includes the epa, the justice department, and even the federal reserve, under which the cfpb operates. vogt has strong views about the federal workforce as well. during a speech in 2023, he said, quote, we want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected when they wake up in the morning. we want them not to go to want to go to work, because they are increasingly

viewed as the villains. and, quote the villains. who could that be? our administrative assistants, the villains, the nih scientists and researchers, federal agents and prosecutors, environmental regulators? air traffic controllers? are they the villains? most importantly, vogt has unorthodox views about his own role as the director of omb. he has spoken about how the expansive powers of the presidency also mean taking more control of the white house's budget by ensuring that the executive branch spending aligns with the president's ideology. at his confirmation hearing last month, he explicitly said that he thinks the impoundment control act of 1974 is unconstitutional. that law reasserts congress's constitutionally mandated power of the purse, and it prevents the president from withholding funds that congress had appropriated and approved. it's a really important law. it was

made into law after congress suspected that richard nixon withheld funds for programs he opposed, even though congress, which has the constitutional power of the purse, had lawfully allocated those funds. vogt strong stance against it gives us an idea about how he and president trump might use the office of management and budget to get people, agency heads, bureaucrats, financial regulators to comply with their orders and their ideology on how they might be setting up a constitutional battle about the scope of executive powers. joining me now is the democratic senator, chris van hollen of maryland. he's a member of the appropriations, the foreign relations and the budget committee. senator, good to see you. thank you for being with us. this is so central, russell. vote is not a name. everybody knows the omb is not an office everybody thinks about. but this is really, really serious. and at his confirmation hearings, you asked russell vote if he would comply with the impoundment control act, about

which i just spoke. he did not give you a straight answer on that. >> that's right. ali, he refused to confirm or commit to applying the law, including the impoundment control act. look, what we're witnessing here in real time is the great betrayal. as you laid out on the campaign trail, candidate trump said, project 25, 2025. what's that? i have nothing to do with it. and as you said, it's because he knew it was unpopular. now he's putting the architect of project 2025, russ, vote in the command and control center of the entire us budget. that's what the office of management and budget at the white house is doing. and they're proceeding, as you say, to strip away very important rights and protections for americans. the cfpb returned billions of dollars to american consumers who had been cheated

by big corporations. elon musk may not care. in fact, he's trying to kill it. and russ votes trying to kill it on behalf of these corporations. so that's just one of many examples where we're seeing something unfold that on the campaign trail, trump was like, i don't know what this is all about. >> i'm going to come back to the cfpb in just a moment. but i want to go back to the fact that you are on the appropriations and the budget committees. i don't know if those rank as people's favorite committees in the public, but they are the ones in the constitution. they are the thing in the that the united states constitution says that you and congress actually have to do, you actually have to meet and you actually have to appropriate the government funds. and it's pretty explicit that that is a congressional responsibility, not a presidential responsibility. i'm not sure how in the last few weeks, this administration has been succeeding in in doing things like gutting government agencies and, you know, freezing funds. it's not there. it's by

law, not their their purview. >> well, that's right, i mean, this is a gross violation of the constitution. you have all sorts of illegal actions taken, which is why you've seen this flurry of court actions. you've seen all these lawsuits filed, you saw federal judges issue temporary restraining orders on their efforts to freeze federal funds that were going to important community projects and purposes. you saw courts stop their efforts to try to, you know, fire thousands of people from aid. so what we're witnessing is this flurry of illegal actions. and the core of those actions is what you've said the president is trying to take power that he doesn't have. he's trying to issue these executive orders to implement these policies when he doesn't have the right or power under the constitution to do that. that vests in article one of the

constitution, which are congress's powers. and, you know, i wish more republicans would wake up to the fact that president trump is making them look like chumps. >> yeah, i wish everybody i hope everybody's got their pocket constitutions on the line. doesn't matter. article one is real easy. it's not. it's not even one of the complicated ones in the in the constitution about the cfpb. again i it's one of these things where when the government works, it works in the background and you don't even know it works and you don't know what they're doing. the cfpb has been working on behalf of the american people to save them from junk fees, to save them from overdraft fees, from saving them from mortgages that are impossible to understand, so that we don't get into another financial crisis like they did in 2008. i don't even understand what the justification would be. i understand that republicans have some problem with the way the cfpb is formulated, and whether it feels like it's accountable enough to congress, but in terms of the actual work, it's it does having elon musk say cfpb, r.i.p. it's a little

rich coming from a really rich guy. >> well that's right, i mean, the people who don't like the cfpb are the corporations that engage in scams and fraud against the american people. they're the people who are cheating americans out of their hard earned money. and so the cfpb is like the watchdog for the public, for the consumer. and they have returned, you know, billions of dollars. and for those corporations that are caught cheating, they don't like the cop on the beat. and that's what's going on. it's one of many things that they're doing that that undercut consumers and the people that trump claimed he was campaigning for. we also, as you know, ali, have just seen these cuts to medical research and places like nih, which helps provide cures and treatments to cancer and other diseases. so this is not i don't believe this is what the american people

bargained for. these are illegal actions being taken that are injuring people throughout the country. >> senator, good to see you. thank you for joining us this morning. we have much, much more to talk about. but you're a friend of the show, so we will have many chances to talk about it. democratic senator chris van hollen of maryland. all right. coming up, the trump administration is stripping down the federal government, firing civil servants, dismantling key agencies. one agency that's on the chopping block is the department of education. i'm going to speak to the former education secretary, arne duncan, about what's at stake for american families. also, the russian opposition politician vladimir kara-murza knows exactly what happens to society when big tech coddles dictators. he'll join us with a warning and some important advice ahead on some important advice ahead on velshi. hate and extremism in the united states are on the rise. in fact, there are more than 1400 hate groups in our country today. groups that vilify others for their race, religion, sexual orientation or gender identity. and extremist groups that spread dangerous

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mile section of land that bisects northern and southern gaza. it conveys convoys of cars filled with belongings and supplies, have started heading to northern gaza. now. that started just hours after an israeli delegation arrived in qatar for negotiations on a longer lasting truce and a permanent end to the war in gaza, which would then be implemented at the start of the next phase of the ceasefire deal, which, if it continues to hold, will be a few weeks away from now. joining me now from tel aviv is nbc's yasmin vossoughian. yasmin, good to see you. phase two. other important aspects of the deal are starting to take effect, including the partial reopening of the rafah crossing between gaza and egypt. >> yeah, which is major ali, as we're kind of talking about the humanitarian aid that is desperately needed, especially in the north of gaza. but let's not forget the south of gaza as well. those evacuees that went to the south to rafah. the mayor

of rafah putting out a statement, i believe, two days ago, saying they were in dire need of humanitarian aid, especially when it comes to housing, to tents, to caravans, to mobile homes. they have 40,000 plus residents that have nowhere to live. hence the reason why they need this rafah border crossing to be opened. and then when you talk about the netzarim corridor that you just talked about, which was part of the ceasefire agreement opening up, allowing free passage of palestinians from the south to the north, that is also allowing that desperately needed humanitarian aid to the north. because when we talk about the people most affected here, ali, it is the young children who for decades now through generations, will be affected by the scars of war that they have experienced over the last year and a half. let's take a listen and a watch to some of what we have seen in our brave team has shot in gaza, and then we'll talk on the other side. this is the reality for many children in gaza. a baby unaware she's homeless, her father, desperate to make

something out of nothing. the scars of war that tore buildings and families apart, and young, sick children separated from their parents for the first time in nine months, kids in need of urgent medical care have begun to evacuate gaza through the rafah crossing. as the busses are loaded, we see a father. tears streaming down his face as he says goodbye to his son. this little boy leaves brother behind. i wanted to go with my brother who is sick and my mom says this eight year old, but they wouldn't let me through. while much of the focus on the ceasefire has been on the hostage release, the need here is tremendous. thousands of patients with trauma, burns, amputations and more. many of them children. but under the ceasefire deal, only 50 are set to be evacuated each day. the conflict has destroyed much of gaza's infrastructure. weeks before the ceasefire deal. two more hospitals were destroyed,

leaving over 2 million with only five small hospitals and limited supplies and care. >> the people who are coming from south of gaza. these people they don't have amin. they they they need the medical service. >> those returning to the north are finding nothing. their homes destroyed. nadine evacuated to central gaza with her family more than a year ago. now back in gaza city for the first time. >> this is the situation for other people. they don't have a tank and they don't have homes. they don't have tents, they don't have anything to build, anything to rebuild what is left. >> her brother jude is inconsolable and grieving for their older brother. >> this is our land. they take this from us without something. we. my brother has been killed. what do i do? just watch it. >> it's. honestly. >> i don't know what to say now. >> yes, truly.

>> where is my brother? i want to deal again. >> entire families living and sleeping amidst rubble. to just feel the comfort of being home. and a generation of kids bearing the wounds of a merciless war. and i was in the west bank this morning as well, ali. and there were small children in a refugee camp in the west bank marching because they were saying they had a right to an education, as we well know, the president, president trump continuing to block aid, us aid to unwra. and then also doctors without borders saying there is desperate need for medical aid in the west bank. so across the board, a desperate need here. ali. >> thank you for bringing us that story and that that those images, we're going to have to remember this as the next few weeks unfold, that there is much to be done, and the world should be invested in making sure that there is a lasting solution that sees these kids get their homes back there, their medical care

they need, and in fact, the education that guarantees that there's going to be a future in that part of the world. yasmin, thanks for your amazing reporting. nbc's yasmin vossoughian for us in tel aviv. all right. up next, we're starting to see the rise of a new american oligarchy. the russian opposition figure, vladimir kara-murza, knows the devastating effects that this has on democracy better than almost anyone. he joins us with some vital advice for america. some vital advice for america. next on velshi. baby: liberty! mom: liberty mutual is all she talks about since we saved hundreds by bundling our home and auto insurance. baby: liberty! biberty: hey kid, it's pronounced "biberty." baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: biberty! baby: liberty! biberty: bi-be-rty! baby: biberty! biberty: and now she's mocking me. very mature. mom: hey, that's enough you two! biberty: hey, i'm not the one acting like a total baby. mom: she's two. only pay for what you need ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: liberty. business. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ it's not a nine-to-five proposition. it's all day and into the night.

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what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. been a week. i want to step back from the headlines for a moment and turn your attention to a little known letter that was written about 235 years ago by our nation's first president, george washington. the letter was a response to english feminist and historian catharine macaulay, who had written washington, congratulating him on his new role as the first head of the united states, what washington fondly called the great experiment. history hasn't

paid much attention to this letter, but its words are profound and timely. it offers a view of how washington perceived his new role as president, not as a vehicle for personal power, but as a duty of stewardship. his responsibility, as he saw it, was to facilitate a social contract between the governed and their government. george washington understood that every decision he made from that moment forward would be remembered and possibly emulated by future american presidents. he wrote to macaulay saying in part, quote, in our progress toward political happiness, my station is new and i walk on untrodden ground. there is scarcely any part of my conduct which may not hereafter be drawn into precedent. the government, though not absolutely perfect, is one of the best in the world. i always believed that an unequivocally free and equal representation of the people in

the legislature, together with an efficient and responsible executive, were the great pillars on which the preservation of american freedom must depend. end quote. the great pillars on which the preservation of american freedom must depend. that's not how things are going right now. donald trump has been in office for less than a month. he's already attempting to cripple the federal bureaucracy and the federal agencies that were designed to serve the american people. meanwhile, the oligarchy backing him has launched an all out war against federal workers themselves a retributive attack on the so-called deep state, but really an attack, by extension, on the people. those nonpartizan civil servants serve you and me, an unelected billionaire, elon musk, who happens to be both the richest man in the world and the current president's top campaign donor, appears to have quite literally seized control of the technical and operational

infrastructure of our federal government, effectively sidelining congress with congress, which has the constitutionally mandated power of the purse, it's becoming increasingly imperative apparent that what this new american oligarchy seeks to relegate congress to is largely a ceremonial role, or perhaps no role at all. in his farewell address, joe biden warned of this dangerous new threat. he warned of what he called the tech industrial complex and how it could break our democracy. what george washington called our great experiment. he cautioned that there would be dangerous consequences if a concentration of power in the hands of a very few ultra ultra wealthy people goes unchecked. just three weeks in, it's not actually too late. across all 50 states, resistance is taking shape. despite the attempts to flood the zone with a barrage of presidential pronouncements and orders of dubious legal validity that are in large part designed to distract the media and demoralize the population, or at

least that part of the population that opposes the damage that trump and the oligarchy are doing to america. america's judges are holding the line in some cases, and people are in the streets defending the body politic that is currently under siege. this is not new for us. even in america, americans have faced grave challenges in the past slavery, the fight against women's suffrage, racist laws, unjust wars, the civil war. we have never emerged from them perfectly, but usually, and ultimately, we have emerged stronger, more inclusive, more democratic. the russian dissident, opposition leader and democracy activist vladimir kara-murza knows the dangers of the growing power of the oligarchy and the toxic combination of a tech industrial complex and an anti-democratic regime. in april of 2022, in the early days of russia's invasion of ukraine, vladimir kara-murza appeared on this show and bravely criticized putin's

government. are you worried about speaking out against the russian government and against this war and invasion from russia? >> we all know the price. we all know the cost. but we also know that there are millions of people in russia who are categorically opposed putin regime and everything it's doing. i'm a russian politician. russia is my country, russia is my home, and this is where i have to be. >> i'm worried for you, my friend. you have been a source of my information for many, many years, so i'll worry on your behalf. >> one day later, vladimir kara-murza was arrested. he spent much of the past two years confined to a small cell in a siberian penal penal colony. he's also survived two poisoning attempts before that, believed to have been retaliation for his advocacy against corrupt russian elites. kara-murza was released from russian prison last august in an historic prisoner exchange between us and the us and russia. now, today, he suffers from polyneuropathy, a nerve condition that affects his

ability to feel his extremities suspected to have been caused by his poisoning at the hands of the russians. like great opposition leaders before him, kara-murza's defining trait is his unwavering sense of duty to his country, at risk to himself and his family as he explains it, quote, what moral right do i have to call on my fellow russian citizens to stand up and resist dictatorship? if i wasn't prepared to do it myself? end quote. since his release, kara-murza has been lobbying western leaders to take stronger action against putin, while also working to maintain the morale of russia's resistance, both at home and abroad. in his latest article for the washington post, coauthored with fellow dissident yulia navalnaya, the widow of russian activist and opposition leader alexei navalny and ilya yashin, who was also imprisoned in russia, kara-murza focuses on big tech's moral failure, calling out the industry's complicity in enabling autocrats worldwide. quote, every concession to dictators hides a

tragedy in iran. administrators of opposition media platforms whose data was handed over to the government have been executed under the country's laws. in russia, tens of millions lost access to uncensored information about vladimir putin's bloody war against ukraine, leaving them vulnerable to relentless state propaganda. but do we really have a choice? corporate western lawyers from western tech companies argue to operate in a country, we must follow its laws. they see no room for debate. the principle of following local laws, no matter what they are, provides a convenient excuse. but it's just that an excuse and a moral dodge. we believe technology can stop being an unwitting accomplice to dictators and an easy tool for oppression. end quote. joining me now is the intrepid vladimir kara-murza, a russian activist, russian opposition politician, washington post pulitzer prize winning columnist and a show a friend of our show. it always

warms my heart to see you, my friend. as you know, i thought for a while there that you and i would never meet again. so i'm glad that you're here. and as you promised, right after you got out of jail, you jumped right back in. this is a very specific concern. we have vladimir, one of which, you know, this this tech industrial complex and its complicity with our growing autocracy in america. and we seek your advice. >> well, it's always very good to be back on your program. thank you for the invitation. the reason we penned this article for the washington post is that increasingly we are seeing western businesses, western companies, western tech companies essentially acting as accomplices to dictatorships, not just in russia. this is a global trend. we see this in communist china. we see this in arab states and other places where people have no right to freedom of expression and freedom of elections. and, you know, there used to be a time when the western world and that included both western governments and western businesses, actually helped repress peoples in these dictatorial countries to regain

their access to freedom of information. speaking about my own country, russia, previously the soviet union, you know, in the 60s and 70s and the 80s, western countries, democratic countries found a way to beam shortwave frequency radio signals across the iron curtain to reach literally millions of people inside the soviet bloc with truthful, objective information about the crimes committed by their regimes. and this fact, this access to freedom of information was, to my mind, one of the decisive reasons for the collapse of the communist totalitarian system. and, you know, those teenagers who listened to radio free europe or the bbc or the voice of america in the 70s and early 80s were the same people who, in august 1991, during the russian democratic revolution, came to die at the barricades by the moscow white house to defend democracy. today we're seeing the exact opposite, and the example that julia navalny, ilya yashin and i give in this washington post opinion piece is that if we look at apple, an american company headquartered in california, we're seeing that

not only has it not been trying to overcome this system of total censorship and propaganda imposed by vladimir putin's regime on millions and millions of people in russia, which, of course, the main goal of which is to suppress and distort information about putin's bloody and murderous war in ukraine instead of helping the people of russia access objective information, we see apple actively aiding and abetting putin's authoritarian regime in suppressing that information and in strengthening its censorship tools. in the past several months alone, apple, at the request of putin's regime, has voluntarily removed several apps belonging to independent media outlets such as echo, the insider or the bbc, or actually us funded media outlets such as radio liberty, radio free europe and current time from its app store, and they also removed more than 50 vpn services, which allow russian citizens to go around the sort of the blockade,

the censorship wall, the internet censorship bill by putin's regime, because they say we have to comply with local laws. well, these laws are illegitimate. these laws are repressive. you know, there were laws that prohibited jewish people from coming into stores or that authorized the stoning of women. these are not laws. you know, before joining the program, i went to apple's website just to check their mission statement. and it says that apple is committed to respecting, and i quote, universally recognized human rights. and they actually referenced un documents such as the international covenant on civil and political rights. but the last time i looked at that covenant, they still had article 19, which protects and defends the freedom of expression. but unfortunately, apple is doing the exact opposite in collusion with vladimir putin's regime. >> and it's important to remember in the united states, in our suffrage movement, in our civil rights movement, people were breaking laws that were unjust, which led to the furtherance of human rights in this country. in your article, you outline three key principles for big tech to follow. and i think it's important that you're talking about big tech more broadly because it's easy and

sometimes justified to entirely villainize elon musk in this. but it's tech more broadly that is involved in this. you want big tech to prioritize human rights, to consider the real world consequences of what they do, and to engage with civil society. you've distilled this into into three simple principles. why? >> well, because those companies that declare their adherence to principles such as the rule of law, respect for human rights, respect for democracy, they have to actually follow these principles as opposed to helping dictatorships overcome them. and this excuse that they're following, you know, so-called local laws is nothing more than an excuse, as you just quoted from our piece, because these laws are, by their nature, illegitimate, you know, to state the absolutely obvious, we haven't had a free and fair election in russia in 25 years. we do not have a real parliament in russia. it's a it's a rubber stamp legislature made up of putin supporters. putin himself is an illegitimate usurper

because we have a two term limit in our constitution for president, just like you have in the united states. and this guy has been in power for a quarter of a century with various pseudo legal shenanigans. but the bottom line is that it's completely illegitimate. and the two largest parliamentary bodies in europe, the parliamentary assembly of the council of europe and the european parliament, has actually officially recognized putin's illegitimate usurpation of power. and then you have these western tech companies that purport to follow, quote unquote, local laws. but this is actually a larger issue that you're absolutely right to point out that this goes beyond an individual company or an individual person. this this is a more general problem. and in fact, it goes beyond big tech. it goes beyond businesses because we have seen in these last few weeks a complete freeze in democracy and human rights assistance programs from the united states government. and i do understand the need for review for getting rid of fraud, waste and abuse. nobody is dismissing it. we've all heard of the extravagant and, you know, ridiculous examples of how u.s. taxpayer money is spent. but, you know, as we say in

russia, you can't treat dandruff with a guillotine and you can't throw, you know, baby, out with the bathwater. and while there is legitimate need to get rid of waste and abuse, in my mind it's absolutely unacceptable to just completely cut all the democracy programs because, you know, this year we're coming up to the 50th anniversary of the helsinki final act that established as a principle of international law, that strong linkage, inescapable linkage between democracy and security. and it's been recognized for decades by the western world that investments in democracy, investments in human rights, this is not charity. these are not gifts. this is investment in international security, because this is the way to make our world more secure. and, you know, you showed a few moments ago you showed images from the oval office and the white house. i noticed that there's now a portrait of president reagan in the oval office. well, president reagan, more than four decades ago, was the american president who established this infrastructure for the support of democracy, for the support of human rights worldwide, for the support of independent

businesses and trade unions and autonomous universities. because he understood and he spoke very often about the fact that this is not charity, that this is investment in international security, this is investment in american security. and i very much hope that once this review period that's been announced is over, we will see the united states continuing to engage in supporting democracy and human rights and rule of law around the world, because this is not only fundamentally aligned with american values, but this is actually the best investment in international peace, stability and security that there can be. >> well said. vladimir, stay where you are. i'm going to take a quick break. i'm going to come a quick break. i'm going to come back on the your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel. nothing beats it. i recommend pronamel active shield because it actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a game changer for my patients. try pronamel mouthwash.

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talking about how captured they were by the propaganda. the parents had been captured. and i said, can people get better information in russia? and they said, of course they can. everybody has a vpn and can get better information. interesting that you're talking about apple discontinuing access to vpns. not that everybody chose to use one in russia, but at least you could get them. we have also seen cases and you mentioned it in iran, where authoritarian regimes use big tech data to track and to punish dissidents. so the technology alone is endangering, endangering people. the technology to get access and the withdrawal of the ability of people to get access to good information. >> absolutely. you know, when i was first arrested in april of 2022, i was placed in a cell with five other people. this was in moscow. the prison number five. and this was just an average cross-section of people in russia, you know, people who were there for economic crimes or for drug offenses and so on. it's by unwritten instruction. the prisoners are not allowed to keep political prisoners

together in the same cells. and, you know, all these other people. when i got into that cell, thought of the war in ukraine, what they were told to think of the war in ukraine by putin's propaganda, because this is what they've been exposed to for, for, for years, for decades now. and i had to be very patient. i had to explain, i had to argue, i had to reason. i had to give people the facts. you know, after about 3 or 4 weeks, everybody else in that cell thought the same about this murderous war as i do, not because i said anything, you know, genius or brilliant, i didn't, i just gave people the facts. and this is the key. this is the root of the problem. because, you know, most people in russia, just like most people in other countries, are normal people. and your normal person would prefer peace to war. any normal person would be horrified at the thought of civilians being killed and children being killed and hospitals being bombed. the problem is, however, astonishing that may sound to citizens of free countries in the 21st century. a large part of the russian population is not aware of the horrendous war crimes that are committed by the putin regime in ukraine, because the putin propaganda is, needless to say, distorting and lying about everything that's

going on. and i think it is incumbent on the free world. i think the free world has not only a legal but a moral obligation, which is much more important to reach russian people without true and objective information about what is happening in ukraine. and just as we've seen the freedom of expression, freedom of information being one of the major factors in the collapse of the communist dictatorship in our country, this regime, the putin dictatorship, will also be undermined when as many russians as possible get access to the truth, and governments and companies from democratic countries should help people get that access to the truth, instead of helping dictatorships suppress it. >> vladimir, i guess we've got to do the same thing. >> in america, though we are. >> one of your warnings in your article is that when big tech cozies up to potential autocrats or people with dictatorial instincts, that's a danger to all of us. even in a place like america. >> there's a reason for the separation of powers. there is a reason for checks and balances. that is how the system is supposed to function. it's supposed to operate. as you said

in the introduction the united states of america has faced. well, let's put it mildly, many challenges in its history before. i'm a historian by education, as you know, but as you also pointed out, every time the us came out of it stronger and more resilient in terms of its democracy, i have all the confidence in the future of democracy in america, just as i have all the confidence in the future of democracy in my own country, russia, in a very foreseeable future. the future belongs to democracies. it does not belong to one man. authoritarian, archaic dictatorships. >> you have been saying this to me for years. you have given me many reasons to doubt that over the years. and yet i suspect you will prevail and your view will prevail. prevail, and democracy and freedom will prevail in the world. you're actually living proof of it, the fact that you're back on this show. vladimir kara-murza is a russian opposition politician. he's a pulitzer prize winning contributing columnist to the washington post and a good friend. still to come on, i'll talk to senator tammy baldwin of wisconsin and former education secretary arne duncan about new plans being floated in congress to fight the trump mosque, dismantling of the government.

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>> hey good morning. it's sunday. >> february the 9th, day 20 of the trump administration. in the final months of the 2024 presidential election, donald trump went out of his way many times to distance himself from this project. 2025 the ultra conservative policy blueprint that was deeply unpopular among voters. trump literally claimed to know nothing about this. it's 922 pages long. he disavowed the heritage foundation, which spearheaded this project, and a number of his allies pulled their support for project 2025 as well. the publication of a book by the heritage foundation's president. a