>> hey good morning. it's sunday. >> february the 9th, day 20 of the trump administration. in the final months of the 2024 presidential election, donald trump went out of his way many times to distance himself from this project. 2025 the ultra conservative policy blueprint that was deeply unpopular among voters. trump literally claimed to know nothing about this. it's 922 pages long. he disavowed the heritage foundation, which spearheaded this project, and a number of his allies pulled their support for project 2025 as well. the publication of a book by the heritage foundation's president. a

separate book. this guy's name was kevin roberts. he was delayed until after the election because the forward ended up being written by the guy who donald trump chose as his running mate, jd vance. trump's top campaign advisers even put out a statement that said, quote, reports of project 2025 demise would be greatly welcomed. but now we're weeks into the second trump administration and project 2025. influence abounds and not in the shadows. several of trump's cabinet ministers, cabinet members and administration appointees are credited as authors of, or contributors to the specific chapters in project 2025, including his new cia director, john ratcliffe, the fcc chair brendan carr, the border czar tom homan, and the senior counselor peter navarro, who has spent time in jail. and last thursday, all 53 republican senators voted to confirm one of project 2025 key architects. this man, russell, vote to lead a critical white house office. he's now the director of the

office of management and budget, a position that he previously held during trump's first term. people don't really think much about russell vote or the office of management and budget, but this guy has caught people's attention in the past for his apparent support of christian nationalism or something like it. as he tried to explain in this video that was captured by undercover journalists for the center for climate reporting. >> my viewpoint is mostly that i would probably be christian nation ism. that's pretty close to christian nationalism, because i also believe in nationalism. >> just let that sink in for a second. i also believe in nationalism. this man is now a top government official. vote explained his stance more thoroughly, by the way, in a 2021 essay for newsweek titled is there anything actually wrong with christian nationalism? yes, actually, in a nation where the very first line of the very first amendment to its

constitution states very specifically and unambiguously quote, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. end quote. in his essay, vote wrote that christian nationalism is, quote, a commitment to an institutional separation between church and state, but not the separation of christianity from its influence on government and society. end quote. and about that, he is wrong, but he sure is powerful. although vote has only been, vote has only been a member of the new administration for a few days, his influence is already being felt in a number of ways. in addition to being the director of the office of management and budget, he's also taken on the role of acting director of the consumer financial protection bureau, the agency tasked with protecting american consumers from predatory financial products and practices. in an email to cfpb employees sent out last night, he issued a dozen directives that effectively paused most of

the agency's activities activities that protect consumers from predatory practices by companies. those developments came a day after elon musk posted on x quote. cf, r.i.p, rest in peace, boasting about how the trump administration is planning to gut that agency next. musk, much like they did with usaid last week, votes take over of the cfpb, provides a snapshot of the changes that he thinks are necessary within this federal government, and how he thinks the power of the executive branch can be used to bring agencies to heel vote, believes in the unitary executive theory, a once fringe legal theory that posits that the president has unilateral control over the executive branch. it rejects the idea of bureaucratic independence, and it proposes that the president has expansive powers to ensure his political ideology is being carried out as he wants. that includes the epa,

the justice department, and even the federal reserve, under which the cfpb operates. vote also has strong views about the federal workforce. during a speech in 2023, he said, quote, we want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected when they wake up in the morning. we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains, end quote, because they are increasingly viewed as the villains. who could those villains be? our government administrative assistants, the villains, the nih scientists and researchers, the federal agents, the prosecutors, environmental regulators? air traffic controllers? are they the villains? but most importantly, vote has unorthodox views about his own role as the director of omb. he's spoken about how the expansive powers of the presidency also mean taking more control of the white house's budget by ensuring that executive branch spending aligns

with the president's ideology. at his confirmation hearing last month, he explicitly said that he thinks the impoundment control act of 1974 is unconstitutional. that law reasserts congress's constitutionally mandated power of the purse and prevents the president from withholding funds that congress has appropriated and approved. it was made into law after congress suspected that richard nixon withheld funds for programs that he opposed, even though congress had lawfully allocated that money. by the way, that's why donald trump was impeached the first time for not spending money that congress had had approved for ukraine vote. strong stance against. it gives us an idea of how he and president trump might use the office of management and budget to get people, agency heads, bureaucrats, financial regulators to comply with their orders and how they may be setting up a constitutional battle about the scope of

executive power. joining me now is the democratic senator, tammy baldwin of wisconsin. she's a member of the appropriations and the health, education, labor and pensions committees. senator, good to see you again. thank you for being with us. i appreciate your time this morning. there's so many issues here, but let's just get to the core of that. and that russell vote, putting aside the white nationalism, christian nationalism stuff is just wrong about the power of the executive versus the power of congress. it is mandated in the constitution. what your authorities are, they are not just that you are a co-equal branch of government, but you actually have the power to appropriate funds. that is not an executive branch policy. >> that's exactly right. you earlier cited the. >> first amendment. >> i will. >> cite article one of our constitution, which makes it crystal clear that it is congress that passes laws, whether those be policy or budget laws, appropriation bills. and it is the president

who administers and implements those laws. there is nothing in the constitution that a the president or his administrators to cherry pick what it is they want to fund. and yet we have seen lawlessness prevail since this president was inaugurated last month. we have seen a funding freeze. we have seen this federal employee buyout that is questionable in terms of its legality. we have seen efforts to close the department of education, and it seems very common now that we hear these announcements on friday nights or during the weekends, their strategy was to flood the zone. and so we are seeing that very clearly. but what i want to say is about this a couple of key points. lawlessness is what we have seen throughout the first

weeks of this administration. but what is their desire? their desire is to make room in their budget for large tax cuts for the very wealthy billionaires and big corporations. that's why they are trying to slash and burn. the second point i would make is as they flood the zone, the chaos and the overwhelming sense of all of this is purposeful. they want to make you feel like you have no power. and democrats in the senate have been fighting back. we held the floor all night long on the vote confirmation, because we wanted to make sure that people knew what a threat he was. and i just want people to remember that when we work together, when we stick together, when we speak out, when you tell your stories, it makes a difference. we fought back against that funding freeze and they they removed their

directive within just a couple of days. the courts are our friends so far in stopping a lot of these illegal actions. and just remember last trump term, it was the people who fought back against repealing the affordable care act. we're going to do this, but we got to stick together and we've got to speak out. >> but you are a bit of a profile in courage in this, right? you've been a first in a lot of ways. you very proudly came out during the election and said that you're a childless cat lady. you know, it is. there is a sense it's different from 2016. people have fatigue. they feel defeated. there is an outrage, fatigue out there. but in fact, no one gave us the right to stop the fight. our ancestors didn't give us the right to stop the fight. those people who died in the civil war didn't give us the right to stop the fight. the civil rights leaders, the suffragists, nobody gave us the right to stop the fight. but people would like to know what that fight best looks like right now. if you're not a

united states senator or you're not the host of a cable tv show, what do you what do you recommend? what are you telling your constituents that they should do? >> well, i have to say that i'm hearing a renewed energy to fight back. yes, there's been some fatigue. we've been fighting for a long time, but the outrage of such lawless actions and people really do understand, based on the last trump administration, that this is just teeing up a huge tax cut for the richest billionaire friends like elon musk, the folks who are in the second row at the inauguration, you know, musk and bezos and zuckerberg and cook. and so people know that. and i think i see a renewed energy. so what i tell them, call us. share your stories. when the funding cut came out, the funding freeze for grants and loans and other programs, we received hundreds of calls. now they were very concerned, panicked calls saying, what does this mean for our head start program? we heard from a fire chief who said, i

rely on a federal grant for the latest firefighters that i've just hired. do i have to lay them off but then elevate those stories? and so i say, speak out, but don't just call your democratic senator. call your republican senators to call your republican representatives to say, look, we're not going to fight back in congress until our republican colleagues realize the constitutional overreach also, and stand side by side with us and say it is congress that enacts the laws, and it is the president who implements and administers them. and i think at some point, my republican colleagues will conclude that they have just gone too far. but we got to push them there. and that's one of the things that the citizens of this great country can do. >> yeah, that's one of those things that republicans used to stand for, right? standing against overreach. and the and the maintenance of the constitution. democratic senator

tammy baldwin of wisconsin, always great to have you on the show. thank you for joining us this morning. all right. still ahead on velshi, in a matter of three weeks, donald trump and the unelected billionaire elon musk have upended federal workforces. and this has had a real effect on you, on every american, even if you can't feel it just yet. one of the agencies on the chopping block is the department of education, as we just discussed. and while trump can't eliminate the doe without congressional approval, he can do serious damage to it. i'll speak with the former secretary of education, arne duncan, about what this means for the millions of schoolchildren and teachers of schoolchildren and teachers across america. reimagine exceptional with the 2024 buick envision. buick. exceptional by design. get 0.9% apr. plus, no monthly payments for 90 days on this 2024 buick envision. here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need,

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dude, i really need a new phone. talkcheck out my newlogist samsung galaxy s25 ultra. it's got galaxy ai. imagine this thing running on our superfast xfinity mobile network. and i also heard that it can do multiple things with a single command. —with google gemini. let me try it. add recipes with overripe bananas to my “dessert ideas” note. that's what you chose to ask it? i had other things planned. ask how to get up to one thousand dollars off the new samsung galaxy s25 ultra with xfinity mobile. trump administration, with the help of elon musk, is stripping the federal government for its parts, firing civil servants, dismantling departments, targeting targeting federal agents themselves for retribution. and perhaps for the first time in a while, americans are being confronted with the mechanics of our government and

on what it spends your tax dollars. the republican congressman from georgia, buddy carter, who is one of only three pharmacists in congress, is incensed by the fact that your tax dollars are being spent buying contraceptives for the taliban. >> look, the aid that was the us aid that was cut off should have been cut off. i mean, $15 million for condoms for the taliban. and, sir. whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa 7000. >> yeah. whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa is right. because that's not actually a thing. the us agency for international development, or usaid, is, of course, one of the federal agencies that's been targeted for elimination by the new administration. and usaid does actually provide contraceptives to health clinics, not to the taliban. our aid abroad looks more like hiv medication for clinics in malawi. one usaid worker, who was laid off by the president last week told nbc news their programs in malawi treated 142,000 girls and young

women last year alone. she tells nbc news that because of the pause in funding for the program, she expects to see, quote, an exponential increase in new hiv infections, end quote, which in addition to being really bad for malawi specifically, whether or not you care about that, and africa more generally, which you probably do care a bit more about, it's dangerous for the entire world. look, usaid is a government program, and critics have long said usaid results are difficult to quantify and that its spending is hard to oversee. all of that may be true, but take, for instance, another federal initiative, pepfar, the us president's emergency plan for aids relief, pepfar. the government says that since its introduction in 2003, an initiative of former republican president george w bush, the program has saved more than 25 million lives. in march of last year, pepfar was reauthorized

for at least one more year, so its long term future is uncertain, as is the future of the department of education. as reports indicate, president trump is preparing an executive order demanding the agency essentially wind itself down. president trump cannot abolish a federal agency without congressional approval, but he can do real damage to the agency. when asked about it this week, he said that he wants to give education back to the states. >> we're ranked. >> very badly. >> and what i want to do is. >> let the. >> states run schools. >> to be clear, that's not what eliminating the federal department of education would do. states and localities actually do run schools. the department of education has no power over what is taught in schools. its main functions are managing the $1.6 billion federal student loan program, providing underfunded schools with money through the title one program, which is meant to improve the quality of education for children on or near or below

the poverty line, and protecting access to a public education for kids with disabilities or with learning differences. if your child is one of the 7.5 million public school students with an individualized education plan iep, you've probably heard about it. maybe it's your kids, maybe it's your grandkids. it's because of the federal department of education guaranteeing that money. another agency that largely works in the background until you need it is the consumer financial protection bureau. as we've discussed, project 2025, i've got right here on my desk. the architect of it, russell vote, has taken control of the cfpb himself. it protects americans from abusive financial practices. it enforces consumer financial law. it was designed so that the president doesn't actually control it. vote has since instructed the cfpb to halt a majority of its operations. operations that protect you from overpaying the bank from paying too much in junk fees. again, donald trump and elon musk's claim is that

they're targeting government waste doesn't mesh with reality. the cfpb is among the most productive agencies by pure margin. its budget is $800 million a year. that's 0.07% of the federal budget. and since 2011, it has returned $20 billion to consumers. now, some of that money has come from banks and big corporations, which might be the problem here. it hasn't returned $20 billion to them. it's returned $20 billion to you. through all of this, many democrats in congress have pointed to the seeming illegality of trump and musk's moves. they say only congress has the power to dismantle agencies. many of the funds being halted have already been approved by congress, and any of these cuts must first and foremost come through capitol hill. that's why we have a ways and means committee. that's why we have a budget committee. all of that's largely true, but it misses the forest for the trees, crippling agencies and halting aid is wrong because spending money on people who need help is good. treating hiv and women and

girls in africa is good. supporting underfunded public schools is good. protecting american consumers from being ripped off by banks and payday lenders is good. it's true that most americans don't know how some of our federal agencies operate, and that is actually the point. that's the sign of a healthy working government. some of these programs, which do unobtrusive good work like preventing disease and starvation, are meant to be like like a background app on your phone. it's not heard nor seen, but it's working constantly. after a quick break, i'll speak to arne duncan, former united states secretary of education. states secretary of education. we'll be right back. when caroline has a cough, she takes robitussin. so she can have those one-on-ones again. hey, jim... can we talk about casual fridays? for sure. what's up? get fast powerful cough relief with robitussin and find your voice.

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here's to getting better with age. here's to beating these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need, and the flavor you love. so, here's to now... now available: boost max! still living with odors? get back in there and freshen instantly with febreze air mist. febreze's fine mist floats longer in the air to fight even your toughest odors. so long stinky smells and hello amazing freshness. febreze air mist. >> before the break, i told you about donald trump and elon

musk's attempts to dismantle agencies that help people in this country and across the world. the next on the chopping block is the department of education. joining me now is the former secretary of education under president obama, arne duncan. arnie, good to see you again. thank you for being with us. >> good morning. thanks for. >> having me. you know, there are a lot of people who think you can't. you can you can play with some of these agencies that people don't know. and technically it's all the same. you shouldn't the president shouldn't be able to dissolve any of these agencies without or departments without congress. but there are people who say, you can't really be dismantling the department of education. it's so interwoven with with our system of education around the country. so notwithstanding the fact that president trump is wrong about his giving education back to the states to improve the quality of education, can he actually cripple the department of education effectively? >> you said it perfectly. >> earlier to actually. >> eliminate to abolish the department. >> you would need 60 votes in the senate. that's never going to happen. so that's not the threat. the threat is to dismantle. the threat is to use

your word. the threat is to weaken. and the irony here is that what is the department actually do? it helps kids, as you said, who have special needs. those children have parents who happen to vote republican, who happen to vote democrat, and millions of those kids. it helps kids who live below the poverty line. it helps rural students. it helps english language learners. it helps with pell grants to make college more affordable for folks who aren't born on third on third base. that's what the department of education does. and trump has no interest in having a strong country in terms of education. that's in our our nation's interest, that's our national interest. he is trying to weaken our nation by hurting education. and it's beyond heartbreaking. >> so is this just common parlance where he says, i want to give it back to the states, because it's kind of what they said about abortion, right? we saw what happened there. that's not what would happen. right? you can't the things that the department of education does at a federal level are not things that you can parse out to the states to handle on a, on a

state level. >> well, the irony is that education largely is already with the states, as you know, 90% of the funding for education is at the local level at the state and the, you know, the community level. and so it's just what he always lies. so he's lying here, the actions already there, the money, the additional money that comes from the us department of education is to help those vulnerable populations and again, choose students with special needs children who live below the poverty line, rural children, children, young people trying to go to college and to reduce educational opportunity to take away from those who are trying so hard to climb the economic ladder by getting a high quality education. no one benefits from that. what i will say trump is very, very interesting. he lies incessantly, as you know. but every once in a while he'll tell you the truth. and he said once, i love the uneducated. and that really stuck with me because i think that really is the truth. he knows that the uneducated are more likely to follow an authoritarian leader, are less likely to question, that will

have less ability to think critically and discern misinformation from actual truth. and so this is an attempt to destroy education, to hurt america, because that's in his personal and political interest. so this is an extraordinarily serious and he knows exactly what he is doing and why. >> one of the things he said is that we rank poorly now as a as a median. that is true, that america doesn't rank where you would expect it would as as the wealthiest country in the world. however, the median is not an accurate reflection of what goes on out there. we rank among the best in some areas. as you said, if you're born on third base or you live. in a in a particular zip code, and we are among some of the worst in the world and some other places, and there are aspects in which you, as education secretary and the department of education, tried to right some of those imbalances, including ways in which you recognize teachers who were going above and beyond and doing a better job. so the education department can actually help in that goal of taking us from a median, sort of middling ranking into one of the

best education systems in the world. >> yeah, a couple of thoughts there. first of all, we have tens of millions of kids who are way too far behind academically now, pre-pandemic, and then coming out of out of the pandemic. that learning loss is real. and so we have to be doing everything to accelerate learning and help students catch up, help them learn to read at grade level. nothing of what trump has talked about. nothing helps a child learn to read better or learn to read faster. that's the game. secondly, if you look at across our 50 states, many of our lowest performing states, unfortunately, are republican led states because they have underinvested in education. we have to educate our way to a better economy, and it should be the ultimate bipartisan or nonpartisan issue. what's our highest performing state? almost still consistently over time is massachusetts. that's largely been led by democrats and who invest in education. and so if you look at, you know, who's pulling down the us national averages, unfortunately. and again, this is there's no joy in

this at all. it's heartbreaking. unfortunately, most of the states that are pulling down the us rankings are led by republican governors, red state. and having those children not be literate, having them not having chances to go to college, none of us benefit from that. nobody wins when that's happening. if you look at the higher performing countries who are ahead of us, the irony is most of them have actually had a national system of education because it's in their nation's interest to have a great education system, so somehow, you know, delegate this to 50 states or 50,000 school districts and not say, this is our nation's interest belies any logic. >> i'm glad you made that point. we're going to pursue. that and perhaps with another conversation. so stand by. you're going to get another invitation to come back on the show. arne duncan, always good to see you. former united states secretary of education, author of how schools work an inside account of failure and success from one of the nation's longest from one of the nation's longest no matter who you are, where you live, or what you believe, there are things we all have in common for black americans and for all people. what matters most is

family, community, and a chance to thrive. but a future where we can all thrive is under threat, and our schools and our towns, even in our halls of justice. the naacp® has been on the front lines for over 100 years, fighting for rights still denied to too many in this country. but our work is not done, our fight continues. with decades of progress on the line. we are not going back. what matters most in this moment is what you do next. we need your support today. so please call or go online right now to keepadvancing.org. for $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. you can become a champion for change and help the naacp® keep advancing in the areas that matter most. winning the fight for racial justice, health equity for black families. equal access to education for our children, protecting women's rights, voting access

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has been ambitious about territorial expansion, sounding more like donald the conqueror. he's insisted that the u.s. take ownership of the gaza strip and the panama canal. he's tried to buy greenland from denmark. he's pitched canada on joining our union as the 51st state. and at his inauguration, trump took america's original expansionist slogan and blasted it skyward. >> we will pursue our manifest destiny into the stars, launching american astronauts to plant the stars and stripes on the planet mars. >> we've been unable to secure comment on this from any martians. american history has seen the country grow in size and betsy ross flag grow in stars. but trump's ideas ebb between delusions of grandeur and old fashioned gunboat diplomacy. there was trump's announcement that the u.s. would, quote, own gaza, sending palestinians to neighboring countries and establishing a, quote, middle east riviera with

literally no specifics laid out by the white house as to how exactly this would happen. the idea has received bipartisan and international condemnation as logistically impossible. trump has also set his sights on, quote unquote, seizing back the panama canal, which was signed over to panama by jimmy carter in 1977. trump has erroneously claimed that china is running the canal, which is actually operated by an independent authority in panama, a subsidiary of a hong kong company runs two of the canal's ports but does not control access to the canal. trump has also floated the idea of purchasing greenland from denmark, a concept that, while not new in the grand scheme of american history, stands firmly against the interests of the people of greenland, whose prime minister has said bluntly, quote, we want greenlanders. and then there's canada, the second largest country by land mass on the planet, my home country. i can't speak for panamanians or greenlanders, but i do have a suggestion for my fellow canucks

on this. donald trump has offered canada the chance to become the 51st state, and i say, why stop there? bear with me while i do a little math. canada has 41 million people. they live in ten provinces, which are like states and three territories which are like territories. so if canada were to become america, some changes would be in order. first of all, congress would have to grow. that would mean canada, as part of the new america, would net at least 54 seats in the house of representatives. for context, the 20 states with the smallest populations have just 46 house seats between all of them. but here's problem number one this little thing called the reapportionment act of 1929 mandates that the u.s. house is no bigger than 435 members. so if you did the math combining canada's population with america's and dividing it by 435, canada would net 47 seats and those seats would be taken away from states all over the country. who's going to tell all of those voters that trump gave

their congressional representation to a guy in saskatchewan? and that's the house of representatives. what about the senate? trump is only offering that canada become one state with two senators. canadian provinces, like american states, compete with one another. they aren't going to be all that interested in snuggling up into one state. each province would have to be its own state. hence, canada wouldn't be the 51st state. it would be states 51 through 60 at the very least. and if it were ten states, canada would have 20 senators. it would be the largest reorientation of political power in america since women were given the right to vote in 1920. trump is specifically asking canada to join as just one state. for that reason, it would likely swing power away from republicans to do it any other way, which is why they've long opposed statehood for puerto rico and washington, d.c. they assume both would become democratic strongholds, increasing the democrats control in congress. here's how republican senators tom cotton and lindsey graham

have weighed in on the issue over the years. >> any of us, d.c. and puerto rico being a state that pollutes our power. >> the house is voting tomorrow on a bill to make washington, d.c. a state. if that sounds insane, you're not alone. so why are the democrats pushing for it? the answer is simple. power. the democrats want to make washington. >> a. >> state because they. want two new democratic senators in perpetuity. >> now. >> if the thought of a couple of senators from puerto rico, like people who are actual american citizens, scares them, i wonder how 20 from the land of maple sirup mounties and anne of green gables is going to go over. and while it's difficult to compare american and canadian politics directly, we've got some sense of how canadians are, what might come to be known as americans might vote. canada has a multi-party parliamentary

system, but in 2003, the conservative parties united under one banner, and since then the conservatives have received on average, about 35% of the popular vote in each election. the left of conservative parties combined have received an average of 63% of the popular vote. expansion from canada to the gulf of america might be a fun idea for trump, until our nice neighbors up north kick his party out of office and install a liberal supermajority. we haven't even talked about what that's going to do to the supreme court. now, of course, in typical canadian politeness, prime minister justin trudeau said there's, quote, not a snowball's chance in hell that canada joins america, but canada. if i were you, maybe the chance to take over your noisy neighbor from inside isn't the worst idea in the world. >> is your shower. >> trying to tell you something is getting in and out of the bathtub becoming a safety concern? are you worried about the cost of a bathroom remodel

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the federal workforce that the trump administration is beginning to carry out, and that is the jobs themselves and the people who hold them. the federal workforce is the largest employer in the nation, and federal data shows that black americans, who have historically found greater equity in the public sector compared to the private sector, will disproportionately bear the brunt of trump's effort to cut the federal workforce. black people are more likely to be employed by state or federal government than any other demographic. according to the center for american progress analysis of 2022 data from the bureau of labor statistics, approximately 1 in 5 black workers are employed in the public sector. that's not just the federal government. that's that's at all levels of government. and that's not an accident. the history of civil rights and the civil service are actually deeply intertwined. as early as the 1840s, some government agencies began hiring black workers decades before slavery was abolished. the united states postal service was one of the earliest places that black people could find, work

and climb. the ranks, and opportunities expanded significantly after the civil war. during reconstruction between 1916 and 1970, some 6 million black americans left the rural south for the urban north to escape jim crow laws and to find greater economic opportunity and stability. federal jobs were accessible through merit based civil service exams and somewhat shielded black workers from rampant discrimination. certainly not entirely, but it was. it was better than the alternative in many cases. jobs within the federal government have, throughout history and today offered relatively good pay health care, retirement security, job security, and stronger workplace protections compared to the private sector. and all of these factors made the civil service a crucial part of creating and sustaining america's black middle class. joining me on more with more on this is errin haines, editor at large at the 19th and host of the amendment podcast, and professor imani perry, professor of american and african american

studies at harvard university, author of many important books, including her latest, black in blues how a color tells the story of my people. good morning to both of you. thank you for being with us. professor perry, between 1915 and 1970, about 6 million black people moved out of the rural south to the more urban north, where there was a promise of greater opportunity in both the private and the public sectors. but part of this was an expansion of employment for black people in the public sector. >> sure. i mean, employment opportunities were largely the greatest motivator of the great migration, with 6 million people moving. and given that there was continued discrimination, even in urban centers, the relatively accessible possibilities that were secured in the in federal and civil service were extraordinary. and that existed even after woodrow wilson discriminated. you know, he created a racial discrimination within the federal government when he entered office. so we

think about that trajectory. one of the things that is essential is to understand not only did it provide greater economic security and possibility, but also that these forms of work are a kind of service to the nation. we don't want to forget that. operating in federal civil and civil service means that you are supporting the functioning of the country. and so, given this long trajectory of ongoing discrimination, that these forms of employment in service to the nation were actually one of the few areas that black people could rely upon to enter the middle class. it's potentially devastating that the loss of that sector. >> and it will it will affect black people disproportionately. aaron imani was just talking about woodrow wilson in 1913. woodrow wilson became the first southerner to win the presidency since before the civil war. and almost immediately after his election, he began a policy of segregation within the federal workforce. we saw back then the

impact it had on black american workers and their prosperity. so we've got we've got historical context for what we may see coming. >> absolutely. >> this is why it is so important to know history. ali. i mean, i know imani also knows this history. well, this is not the first time a president has used racist policies to slash black workers from the federal government. i mean, president trump is literally taking a page from woodrow wilson's playbook. and this was a surprise resegregation order, you know, of the federal workforce. after he was elected in 1912, black people voted for woodrow wilson. you mentioned the post office. i mean, before this resegregation order, over 60% of the federal jobs at the time were at the post office, and black people had a lot of those jobs. the treasury was the second largest employer of black workers, you know, in the federal workforce. and so these jobs, as imani mentioned, represented opportunity for so many black americans, many of whom were working previously in service jobs that paid less money. and, you know, this this segregation

order changed all of this dramatically. it increased the wage gap. it increased racial inequality. and so, you know, we talk about black workers, you know, being qualified in this current day context, right, like this so-called conversation around the need to address, you know, diversity, equity and inclusion efforts. but this literally was a colorblind process. as you point out, ali, you passed the test. you're qualified no matter who you are. so this helped to really address so much of the systemic inequality in in the labor market. and there was, you know, president woodrow wilson took direct aim at that then. and certainly that's kind of what we're seeing in this current moment. >> imani black federal workers have been and civil servants in general have been on the forefront of the fight for civil rights and labor protections, sort of, since they've been involved in the workforce, from the earliest unionization to the fight for the federal wage system to the struggle for the civil rights act, black public sector workers have almost

always been at the front of that charge. tell us a little bit about that history. >> sure. i mean, if we look if we trace the major civil rights gains and organizing efforts, they have heavily been populated by people. they were by people who served in, in the federal and civil service, in part because that allowed them a kind of organizing, organizing capacity that was important to bring pressure to bear on the government. and one detail that i think is really significant, given that we will likely hear lift every voice and sing again today at the super bowl, the song known as the black national anthem, is that it was written by someone who worked as a consul to venezuela and nicaragua, james weldon johnson, who actually left that employment because of woodrow wilson coming into office. and so and he went from there to the, to the naacp. so there's this direct relationship historically between those who actually work for the government and those who led the charge for

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medical provider at rokos sparks. >> back with me. two great friends of our show erin haines, editor at large for the 19th, and imani perry, author and professor of american studies at harvard university. erin, the trump administration, you brought up this stuff that's going on with dei. it's pushing back against the so-called dei

initiatives, which will again have a disproportionate impact on black workers in the public and the private sector. talk to me about this multi-pronged attack. if you are the average black worker in america, just trying like everybody is to make a buck and afford the increase in the price of eggs. what what is the long term impact on this, of these of these things? >> yeah, i mean, ali, i wrote about this in my column for my newsletter. i'll also call the amendment about just who president trump's america is leaving out. i mean, we have to go back to just last month, in his inaugural address on martin luther king junior day, you had the president paying lip service to this idea of unity and for the country to become a colorblind meritocracy. and then, you know, you look at his actions in his first days in office where he's talking about american greatness and basically saying that that that race and gender have nothing to do with american greatness, even as we know that so many black workers

have contributed to the american greatness of our country. what he's been focused on is rewarding, you know, toxic masculinity, seemingly in an attempt to restore, you know, straight white men to their rightful place in our democracy and society. and this is really why it's so important. history is looming so large over this moment. ali, today is literally the anniversary of the 15th amendment, which gave black men the right to vote. obviously, they had to fight, you know, mightily to, to get that full access to the ballot. but when that happened, you know, that unlocked black men's political power at the ballot box in the halls of power in state legislatures and the congress, like we saw the racial progress that came from that amendment, followed by racial backlash. and i think that that is really, you know, really context for the moment that we're in. it would be generations before our country became a truly representative government. with the passage of the voting rights act in 1965. we're celebrating that this year, too. like all this stuff matters, and it's just so important to understand,

you know, what he's doing now and what it means for where we need to go and who we want to be as a nation. >> imani, indulge the economic journalist in me for a moment. and this nonsense about how america's greatness was based on anything other than, until 1865, free labor, and then subsequent to 1865. for many decades, it was essentially still free labor. right? people were not enslaved, but you still ended up the sharecroppers still ended up at the end of every year with no money until until we ended up with ways to try and create fairness. that delayed wealth accumulation for black people in america by a few hundred years, and that has not been evened out yet. so anything we do to set black american wealth accumulation back is we're still not even at zero. we're not even we're not even at parity with with black american wealth. >> yeah, that's. >> absolutely right. i mean, i think this is what makes the conversation about meritocracy so clearly disingenuous. i think about my great aunt abby, who

joined the women's auxiliary corps during world war two, as did many black americans, many black women, and who died while canvasing out for the naacp. when the naacp was considered an illegal organization in the state of alabama. that there is, on the one hand, all of these moments where dis accumulation, where the lack of the capacity to establish wealth in black communities took place at the hands of both state governments and federal governments. and on the other hand, there is this long tradition of african americans participating in not only serving the nation domestically, but internationally as one of its most key moments. the civil war to world war two and the great migration really coincided with many of these important moments. so yeah, this, you know, we want to talk about merit. we have to talk about the meritorious service that black americans have done to this nation, even as there are these waves of

discrimination and a particularly pernicious one coming. now. >> there's an opportunity here, though. it's like book banning, where a whole bunch of people who didn't read those books now are suddenly reading them because they're banned. a whole bunch of people who didn't understand what you just talked about will now learn about this history and about the fact that this was never actually a meritocracy. it was always about holding people back. and now we're trying to right some of those wrongs. thanks to both of you. what a wonderful conversation. errin haines, editor at large of the 19th and msnbc political contributor. imani perry, professor of african american studies at harvard university, author of the brand new book black in blues how a color tells the story of my people. that does for me. thank you for watching. catch me back here every saturday and sunday morning from 10 a.m. to noon eastern. do me a solid. scan this qr code on your screen right now. i got it right. qr code, follow me on blue sky. you can find me at velshi blue sky dot social. but again, all you have to do is scan that qr code so easy with your phone, it'll take you right to my page. can't say i've done it myself. so you tell me if it

doesn't work. you can also follow me on threads on linkedin on mastodon. i post there daily as well. stay right where you are inside with jen psaki begins right now. joe. >> come on. >> getting stronger and louder every day. >> i'm going to talk to senator cory booker. >> about what democrats and the courts are doing to fight back. plus, my exclusive interview with maryland governor wes moore, whose state is dealing with this assault in real time. and later, i'll talk to the former twitter executive who's giving out free advice to federal workers about how to handle a musk takeover. okay, i kind of think that i mean, to some degree, what we are seeing from donald trump right now is sort of what we expected. the